Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Surviving War, Cancer, and the DOJ: The Resilient Dr. Rifai

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Surviving War, Cancer, and the DOJ: The Resilient Dr. Rifai · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:07
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:11
nightmares to set yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
0:14
topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
0:17
survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
0:22
sometimes sad. There's some humor, but
0:25
hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
0:27
help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
0:30
mind. All right, welcome back.
0:33
Now I'm your success in and out listeners.
0:35
This is where you come from. What happens when you're worse?
0:38
Fear becomes your reality. How do you adapt, survive,
0:40
overcome? Set yourself free folks, Don't
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forget to follow, subscribe, share this thing out, like it up
0:47
comment. It really helps the show and I
0:49
appreciate that. So who are we talking to today?
0:51
One of the things I love about having this show is is that I
0:55
can talk to people who I think my audience will find
0:59
interesting. And my guest is Doctor Muhammad
1:03
Ali Rafa, and his story is, it's fascinating.
1:11
It really caught my attention. He's just got a book that came
1:14
out as Doctor Not Guilty. So I'm giving it away.
1:17
This is one of the guys that actually got indicted, went
1:21
through the whole process, went to trial.
1:24
And I know you guys know this. The statistics 'cause I say it a
1:27
lot, 97% of the people who get indicted plea.
1:31
And then the other ones that go to trial usually lose and then
1:34
they get extra time 'cause they went to trial.
1:38
Doctor Rafi did not. He won.
1:41
And his, and the whole thing of how it all happened in the
1:44
courtroom with his, a couple of his witnesses, how they brought
1:49
down the case is, is really interesting.
1:51
But he's got a really interesting background.
1:52
He, he lived some of his life in Syria.
1:57
He survived machine gunfire as a child and warned torn Syria.
2:01
He escaped thyroid cancer. He walked away from a car crash.
2:04
It should have killed him. He had all that going on.
2:07
Nothing, as he says in his book, nothing prepared him for the
2:10
most dangerous enemy of all the United States government.
2:13
And after he got done with all this, he, he founded Shield to
2:18
help other professionals on how to fight their way through the
2:21
justice system. And one of the things that I
2:25
think is really interesting is is when COVID came around,
2:29
telemedicine, teletherapy, all those things began to be talked
2:33
about a lot, how they were treating people, you know,
2:35
through Zoom, through talking to their doctors.
2:38
Well, Doctor Roth, he actually started this back in 2007.
2:42
I think that's maybe one of the reasons why he got on the radar
2:45
of, of our, our federal government.
2:48
But I can't wait to unpack all this with the doctor.
2:53
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Autoplaza Direct telling Brent from Nightmare Success sent you
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Doctor Rafi, how are you? Very good.
3:35
Thank you very much for having me on the show.
3:38
I'm I'm excited to tell my story.
3:41
Well, congratulations on your book too.
3:43
I, I did one of those books and there's a lot that goes into
3:46
that, but I think it's pretty cathartic.
3:48
Did you find it like getting your, your words on paper?
3:51
How did how did you like that process?
3:53
I, I found it, I found it very cathartic and, and, and the book
3:56
doesn't just contain my story, it contains the stories of other
4:01
colleague physicians who've been on the other end of being
4:08
prosecuted and persecuted by the United States Department of
4:11
Justice unjustly. And they beat the odds also.
4:17
And they, they were, they were successful in being found not
4:19
guilty. So I tell some of those other
4:21
stories and recognize some of other physicians that that were
4:25
on, on that on that receiving end.
4:27
Gives them hope. I I was just reading on on your,
4:32
your book there on Amazon and one of the quotes is Muhammad
4:38
Ali Raphael's story is authentic.
4:41
It brought me to tears several times.
4:43
A great example of resilience. Dan Clark, New York Times
4:45
bestselling author and Hall of Fame speaker.
4:48
It's a good endorsement. Take us back a little bit.
4:53
You know, what with the Raphael family, Syria, I've not had
4:58
anybody on the show. That's, that's, that's lived in
5:00
that environment. What?
5:01
What was that like as a kid? It was, it was, it was
5:05
difficult. Basically, growing up in Syria,
5:10
there was civil war going on in the late 70s and and 80s.
5:15
My, my first memories is a tank parked in front of our car that
5:21
would occasionally fire unannounced tank shells at at
5:29
insurgents far away. So so imagine you're just in
5:34
your in your bedroom and and and a tank fires periodically
5:39
unannounced. How?
5:41
Did that affect everything else in like normal living life?
5:45
I mean going to school, having dinner at night, like how does a
5:49
family and you have a really smart family.
5:52
You got a family of doctors, education wise, school wise,
5:58
sports what? What was life like being in that
6:02
type of? Environment it was, it was
6:04
difficult I mean, I, I was, I was on the edge of of, of of
6:08
death all the time. Fear was there all the time.
6:12
That's when I'm one of my experiences where I, I was, I
6:15
was this close to being on not here, basically, basically
6:22
insurgents were having fights, firefights with, with government
6:27
soldiers and government soldiers thought that they would teach
6:31
the population a lesson. So they stopped a couple of
6:34
school buses and, and one school bus had had high school students
6:39
and they put them on the wall and just machine gun them.
6:42
And then when it was time for the younger children, I was in
6:45
the bus with the younger children.
6:48
The officer decided that it was going to be a little bit more
6:51
difficult. And so they, they did, they kind
6:53
of changed their mind and they didn't, they didn't go through
6:56
with the, with the, with basically kind of killing
7:00
everybody and, and, but, but it was, it was I, I still have
7:03
those memories of the, of the machine gun.
7:07
What age were you when you and your family moved to the United
7:10
States? We moved to the United States
7:13
when I was 14. So, so that's that's why my
7:15
English is is. Is fantastic.
7:18
Yeah. And I had, I had grown a little
7:20
bit part of part of earlier life also in the United States when
7:23
we went back to Syria. So, so throughout my life, I was
7:27
between here and Syria, So, so kind of multiple, multiple
7:31
times. But I think that prepared me.
7:36
I, I sometimes think about that and, and, and thank the Lord
7:41
because that prepared me for what was coming, what the fight,
7:45
that kind of learned resilience, learned to withstand the
7:50
toughest circumstances and stand up for justice, truth and
7:55
honesty no matter what the odds are.
7:59
So Muhammad, when when you made that the the big move and and
8:05
permanently in the United States going to school and and being a
8:10
kid were were you basically accepted as just a normal kid
8:14
that, you know, moved in from out of town or was it?
8:17
Different I I was accepted as a normal kid, moved out of town
8:20
and, and went to high school and and did, did did very well and,
8:26
and just kind of for a while there felt that that life was
8:34
turning around. However, life didn't turn around
8:37
because I started having health problems.
8:40
I read thyroid cancer. And and and it turned.
8:43
Out what? What age were you when that?
8:44
Happened that was that was at age 14 when we had just moved
8:47
here. Gosh.
8:48
And this was 1987. In 1986, the Chernobyl nuclear
8:53
disaster happened and we were in Syria.
8:56
And so there was some nuclear fallout from from Chernobyl.
9:01
I learned that later from my endocrinologist who studied this
9:05
phenomena and he found basically they did the thyroid biopsy and
9:11
they found radioactive iodine from Chernobyl because it has a
9:16
certain signature. It has, it has a unique distinct
9:20
signature as coming from Chernobyl.
9:22
And it's like that was that was what it was in my thyroid.
9:26
My gosh, 14 years old. How long did it?
9:30
How long of a process did you go through to it?
9:32
Took it took a couple of years, but but I was, I was treated
9:35
successfully and I'm, I'm, I'm thankful.
9:37
But again, another another experience and resilience that
9:42
that what you think about it and and what you keep going on in in
9:46
life. Was that introduction into that
9:50
whole process? Did that give you a feeling that
9:52
you wanted to get into medicine? Absolutely, yes.
9:55
Yeah. I loved, I loved my
9:57
endocrinologist. I loved my doctor.
9:59
And in fact, during medical school, I ended up doing doing
10:02
research with him. He's now passed, but he's a he
10:05
is a prominent endocrinologist and he's a physicist.
10:09
And he worked with, actually with the US Nuclear Commission
10:13
because he studied radioactive iodine and was able to tell
10:17
different fallout events around the world by studying the
10:20
thyroid of humans as well as cows.
10:23
So he would take samples from different, different animals and
10:27
samples from humans and would be able to tell you nuclear fallout
10:31
and where it went. He had many, many papers and and
10:35
I, I love that that aspect of science and and ended up in in
10:40
in medicine. Was it University of Virginia?
10:44
He was at the University of Tennessee.
10:45
So I, I actually did that the work at the University of
10:49
Tennessee and actually did ended up doing some cutting edge
10:53
research in basically biochemistry as well as
11:00
neuropharmacology, so studying the brain and that's how I ended
11:04
up in psychiatry. And you're an internist?
11:08
Yes, yes, so so I did. I actually funny story there.
11:12
My my parents, you know, were Middle Eastern.
11:14
So when I told him I wanted to be a psychiatrist, they said oh
11:18
not not psychiatrist come. On.
11:21
And so and so. The I think it's perfect though,
11:24
because you can be being an internist and I can talk to you
11:27
about it and. So, and so they, they negotiated
11:30
with me. They said, can't you do
11:31
something in, in psychiatry, but add something to it.
11:35
So there was a University of Virginia had a program where you
11:38
did internal medicine and psychiatry.
11:40
And so I, I did that. I did that for five years and I
11:46
loved research. So I actually got recruited to
11:48
the National Institute of Mental Health and Bethesda, MD and was
11:52
there for, for three years. So it was funny because I, I was
11:57
a federal government employee. I, I worked for the federal
12:00
government for like 5 to 8 years.
12:03
I, I was at the Department of Health and Human Services.
12:06
That's the same department that ended up office Inspector
12:09
General. Ended up investigating me years
12:12
later, but I've done my my my public health service.
12:18
That's really something. So you step out and get involved
12:22
with your own practice, I guess. And what, what was it that
12:28
because the, the time period that you got involved with
12:34
teletherapy, telemedicine using the the screen to, to help
12:40
people. How did you get introduced to
12:42
that at such an early time period?
12:44
So it was, it was the year 2006. I had just actually just moved
12:49
to my area. I'm in Pennsylvania.
12:50
I'm in the greater Lehigh Valley, PA.
12:53
And it's a rural area. And I worked for this large
12:58
hospital system that had multiple hospitals kind of far
13:01
away from each other. And they were interested in,
13:06
they didn't have enough doctors, they didn't have enough
13:08
psychiatrists. So they were interested in
13:11
spreading around my services around different, different
13:14
areas. And so basically telehealth,
13:17
they brought in an expert for telehealth that was doing
13:20
telehealth in Missouri. And basically we implemented the
13:24
telehealth system where I would be sitting like this in my
13:27
office and I would tell a broadcast to several other
13:31
hospitals in the area and basically see patients.
13:35
And that was 2006. We, we got a grant from the
13:37
federal government. It was quite expensive.
13:41
That system that they bought, the telehealth system cost them
13:44
$5 million. Now you have $100 phone, you can
13:47
do telehealth or anything. But those days it was, it was an
13:51
expensive system and but it worked out very well.
13:56
We published some good papers and the federal government
14:00
thought that this program was very, very successful.
14:04
So you're just moving along as a normal guy, you know, having
14:08
great success. How does your nightmare fall on
14:12
you? We actually, part of it is that
14:18
I started a private practice, so I went away from from a
14:21
hospital. I wasn't in a hospital system
14:23
and I started providing telehealth services to nursing
14:28
homes in rural Pennsylvania that didn't have anybody that could
14:31
help them and helped a lot of people, helped a lot of patients
14:35
that were elderly people in rural nursing home.
14:39
They were lonely. They were having psychiatric
14:42
issues. Makes a lot of sense because
14:44
they can't travel. Yeah.
14:45
And some of these nurses, some of these nursing homes were kind
14:48
of literally almost small psychiatric hospitals because
14:51
they had a lot of people that had psychiatric problems.
14:54
And it was only Doctor Rafael that would come through a screen
14:57
like this and would see patients for several hours every week.
15:02
And, and that was very, very successful.
15:05
But the federal government, I mean, the different arms of the
15:09
federal government didn't communicate with each other.
15:12
Medicare was encouraging us to provide services to these
15:16
patients. But you know, the other parts,
15:20
the investigative parts of the federal government, they were
15:22
not having it. And so the Office of Inspector
15:26
General for Department of Health and Human Services, they got
15:28
involved. And, and you know, when you're a
15:31
hammer, the only thing that you know is, is to hit, hit, hit,
15:35
hit a nail. So, so that's, that's all they
15:37
knew is investigate, prosecute and indict people.
15:41
And that's what they did. It was a train like it didn't
15:44
matter what you did. It didn't matter how good your
15:47
paperwork, your documentation, everything that you did, your
15:50
due diligence, it was a train that was going from station A to
15:54
station C, which is conviction. That's station C for them.
15:58
And there there was no derailing it.
16:01
Yeah, a lot of people think it's justice.
16:03
The job is a conviction. Absolutely.
16:08
I think I remember reading that it started with just an audit,
16:11
right? They just showed.
16:12
Up started with an audit, started with actually a patient
16:15
that that didn't want to pay a Co payment.
16:18
Yeah, they, they called and they said, oh, oh, I have a Co
16:21
payment. And we ended up finding on later
16:25
on that the Co payment was legitimate and Medicare wanted
16:28
the patient to pay the Co payment, but the patient didn't
16:30
want to pay the Co payment. That's how it started.
16:33
And basically they did an audit and unbeknownst to us, they,
16:38
they didn't pass us, they didn't pass us with the audit, even
16:41
though I hired an attorney, I hired A coder.
16:44
They said everything that you submitted was kosher.
16:48
They gave it to a contractor who kind of fudged the numbers and
16:53
fudged the results and we didn't pass the audit and basically the
16:58
the investigation started. Did you know at that time that
17:01
an investigation started? No, no, I, I, I did not know.
17:04
We thought, we thought that the audit results were favorable,
17:08
and we thought no news is good news.
17:12
But in the government, in the federal government, no news
17:15
usually means bad news. So this was was it 2017 the 2.
17:20
1017, 2018 and and then they came with a search warrant in
17:25
2019. Yeah.
17:27
So a couple of years went by or a year or so.
17:31
What are you thinking when the search warrant thing shows up?
17:35
I, I, I wasn't sure I, I wasn't sure, but, but I, I think that
17:40
my, my understanding and, and of the, of the legal system kicked
17:46
in pretty quickly. I had done throughout my career,
17:48
served as an expert witness, psychiatric expert witness.
17:52
So I've testified in court multiple times and a statement
17:57
from a judge resonated with me very, very quickly, he said.
18:03
When you're confronted with the police, just don't say it.
18:07
Yeah, right. Yeah.
18:08
Say nothing and save everything. It was it was in my book.
18:12
Basically just invoke your 5th Amendment because no matter what
18:16
you say is going to be misconstrued is going to be no
18:20
matter even if you think that you are smart enough that you're
18:24
going to be able to dissuade the these officers from their from
18:28
their objective. Well, it's a, it's a really good
18:31
point because a lot of people just have this feeling that, you
18:36
know, these are good guys, they're just trying to help.
18:39
And if I could just tell them what's going on, then everything
18:42
will be OK. And it's really, really good
18:46
advice because if you're tagged, they're building a narrative of
18:51
you being somebody that is bad. They don't want to hear anything
18:55
about what your story is or how it is.
18:57
They're building a case against you.
19:00
And so they're professionals. They, they, they, they have,
19:04
they're professionally trained and you have to put somebody
19:07
with them on the other side of the fence that's also
19:10
professionally trained so that they know exactly what these
19:12
people are doing. The the naive person in the
19:15
middle has no business in a professional game.
19:19
Absolutely. But you know, I tell a story in
19:22
my book, even the person who's professionally trained as an
19:25
investigator, I tell the story of General Michael Flynn.
19:30
Now, General Michael Flynn is a, a, a, he was the head of the
19:35
military intelligence for the United States military.
19:38
He investigated, he interrogated the Taliban.
19:41
But you know, when these FBI agents came to him, they, they
19:46
basically lulled him into, into basically telling them what they
19:50
want. And then they wrote whatever
19:52
they wanted and and he they got him on making false statement
19:56
that the wall was green while it was blue.
20:00
Well, and that's another good point, Muhammad, is that when
20:05
they're called 3 O twos and when you have a three O 2 and that's,
20:09
that's when they come and they they interview people.
20:13
They don't record that. They write it down.
20:16
And sometimes they just write down what it is that they
20:18
remember. But you would think in the 21st
20:22
century that anything that's going on with an investigation
20:26
and when you're interviewing somebody is, is actually
20:28
recorded. And and it's not.
20:31
And what you just said, Mohammed, is that they can also
20:34
get you or saying something that they believe was not true
20:38
because of how they wrote that down, because there's no
20:40
recording to it. Absolutely.
20:42
And and, you know, if they say I want this recorded, they say
20:45
we're not going to do an interview then.
20:46
Doing the interview yeah Yep, it's it's the way it works and a
20:51
lot of people don't know that a lot of people unless you're in
20:54
it, you don't know I'm. Hoping that people read my book
20:56
and understand that that when federal agents come, don't say
21:00
anything. Wait wait for the lawyer.
21:03
In my case, we actually even waited until the court date.
21:06
We said nothing until the court date and just saved our cannons
21:10
for the court. Right, absolutely.
21:14
So they they come and they do the the I guess.
21:21
Was it a raid or? Did it, did it a raid?
21:23
I mean, I and you know, I, I, I want to be fair to them.
21:28
They were, they were, they were not, they were kind.
21:31
I mean, they knew it was a medical office.
21:33
They, they were kind. They, they knew exactly what
21:35
they wanted to do. They want the records that they
21:38
want to do, the electronics that they want to copy so that it
21:42
wasn't wasn't like like violent or anything like that.
21:46
And, and basically that that's it that that they they did their
21:49
their raid in in June 2019 and then they disappeared for.
21:55
How? For how long?
21:56
They disappeared for about 2 1/2 years.
21:59
So COVID happened that the next year in in January, February,
22:05
COVID happened and you know, everything was shut down and
22:08
they did nothing until December 2021.
22:13
So what? What happens then?
22:15
What happens in December? 21 they came back again.
22:17
They came back again and and said, well, you know, Doctor
22:21
Rafi, you are a target now we're we're bringing a target letter
22:24
for you. You better, you better hire an
22:27
attorney or I said thank you, thank you very much.
22:31
I got the target letter from the agents and then things started.
22:39
So you get an attorney and I, I remember that you said you, you
22:42
were grateful for your attorney because he was very familiar
22:48
with the, the business or the, OR the medical field of
22:53
psychiatry. Sure, sure.
22:55
Yes, yeah. Which had to have been helpful
22:56
for you, yeah. And, and he's his dad is a
22:59
psychiatrist, a very prominent psychiatrist.
23:01
He's passed now, but there's a professorship in his name at
23:05
Temple and his brother is a child and adolescent
23:08
psychiatrist still practicing psychiatrist in in the area.
23:10
So he knew the business of psychiatry and basically, and
23:16
that's, that's another message for for people is that we did
23:19
try, we did try with the with the federal government to say,
23:23
well, what is it that that we don't think that doctor, if I
23:27
did anything wrong and what is it that you're investigating?
23:30
And what was it that they were saying that you did wrong?
23:33
Because, you know, it's healthcare fraud and that's such
23:35
a vague, gigantic umbrella. What were they saying you were
23:38
doing? So, so basically they they said
23:41
that the services that we provided by telehealth, they
23:45
mischaracterized them. They said these are just medical
23:48
visit, you saw the patient, you didn't talk to them, you just
23:51
gave them a prescription and sent them on their way versus
23:54
what you build, which is a medical service.
23:57
So a prescription plus talk therapy plus talking to the
24:00
patient. And they're, they're basically
24:02
the fraud is that you build for talk therapy and you didn't do
24:06
talk therapy. That's just just the gist of it
24:08
for layman's people. And, and they basically each
24:15
service was about $43.46 and there were four charges.
24:20
Each charge was 10 years in jail that they said were fraudulent.
24:26
Not for $43. Yeah, not.
24:28
So that was what was shocking to me is I couldn't believe the
24:31
the, the, the dollar amount in these in these charges. 100 a
24:35
$180 for the four charges and what they do is they do what we
24:39
call extrapolation and they say well between 2017 and 2022,
24:44
that's five years you did that many of these services.
24:47
So these four services are just representative of.
24:50
Right, they can stack them. Right.
24:51
And and then, and then they said, oh, OK, we want $1.3
24:54
million from you. So what?
24:59
What, when you get with your attorney immediately because of
25:02
your background, because of being an expert witness, are you
25:05
thinking, we're going to fight this thing out, We're going to
25:08
get we're going to get into the thick of it?
25:09
Told my attorney, yeah, yeah, we're going to fight this, this
25:12
thing out. And, and we did try.
25:13
We did, we did try. But, you know, I think there was
25:16
no dissuading the federal government.
25:18
As I said, it's a train. And and you know, they, they,
25:21
they, they were doing as we were, as we were basically
25:25
trying to have discussions with them.
25:27
They had a, they had a grand jury and panel then they were
25:31
having witnesses testify in the grand jury and they were
25:35
negotiating with us, but the negotiations were not like, OK,
25:38
I'm this is going to be a civil settlement or anything like
25:40
that. No, your client is going to
25:42
plea. We're 100% sure that he what he
25:45
did was fraudulent and so. That's another thing, Mohammed,
25:51
I want to point out is that you said they had impaneled a grand
25:55
jury. Most people think when you think
25:59
of a jury that you hear both sides.
26:02
You think that you're OK, here's the prosecutor, he's going to
26:04
present his case and then here's the defense attorney and then
26:08
he's going to present his case and then that jury will decide
26:11
if there needs to be an indictment.
26:13
That's not right. What happens is is the
26:16
prosecutor brings witnesses in and presents his case and there
26:22
is never a side heard from the defense.
26:26
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, they, they offer you
26:29
to testify, but no attorney will allow you to testify because
26:33
they could, they could misconstrue all your words and,
26:37
and and and nobody ever testifies in grand jury because
26:40
your lawyer is not allowed to be there.
26:42
He's not allowed to basically to to to the to the other
26:47
witnesses. So you're the the the odds are
26:50
stacked against you. So basically This is why there
26:53
there's the famous saying that that prosecutors could indict a
26:56
ham sandwich. Ham sandwich and that's true
26:59
because you're only presenting one side yeah, yeah.
27:01
Well, I want to I want to take a break here because I.
27:04
When we get back, I want to go in and talk about what it was
27:07
like to go against the United States of America versus your
27:11
name and what that whole process and how your witnesses were and
27:16
everything else that happened and how you felt when you walked
27:18
in that room. Sure, sure, absolutely.
27:21
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28:01
And the Nightmare Success Podcast is sponsored by the
28:03
White Collar Support Group, the world's first support group
28:06
devoted to people navigating the white collar criminal justice
28:08
system. I'm a member of the White Collar
28:10
Support Group, and I can tell you this is a bunch of people
28:12
who help each other through the criminal justice journey for
28:14
free. Whether you're just starting
28:16
your journey or you made it through to the other side, this
28:18
is great space for you. You can join us on Zoom Monday,
28:21
7:00 PM Eastern Time. I also want to give a shout out
28:23
to the there's going to be a White collar conference, the
28:27
second one of its kind, October 11th.
28:30
So if anybody wants to check into that goes to prisoners.org
28:35
and you can find out all the information about why caller
28:37
support group and and the federal expungement initiative
28:40
and all the other things that that's on that website so.
28:44
I want to, I want to give a shout out to the caller support
28:47
group this Saturday. This Sunday, I actually attended
28:51
a talk by attorney Jeff Grant. Yes, Jeff Grant.
28:54
San Bartholomew's Church in New York City.
28:58
And it was it was an honor and a pleasure to be with him.
29:02
And, and we went out to lunch after that and.
29:04
I saw the picture. It was, it was a great
29:06
experience. I I was, it was, it was an honor
29:09
and to support the federal expungement project that he has.
29:14
Well, it's just become a really good friend of mine and, and
29:17
he's, he's got a heck of a story of his own, but he's, he's put
29:22
together this national support group And for the first time
29:26
we're starting to step into some initiatives.
29:29
And there, I think there's 44 states that have some form of
29:32
expungement to give somebody a clean start on their second
29:37
chance. But there's nothing on the
29:38
federal side and we believe there should be.
29:43
And that's, that's what we're working on.
29:45
We've got some law professors and people in the field that are
29:48
helping us and we're starting to get together with legislative
29:53
people, senators and and those type of people.
29:55
So we're in the. Midst of that, I'm in the midst
29:57
of that. That's Chapter 2 of my story.
29:59
There you go. There you go.
30:01
Well, let's let's jump into Mohammed.
30:04
The, the, the thing that nobody does except what you did.
30:10
You're in the 1% group of getting prepared, knowing you're
30:16
going to trial and you're, you're looking at years, you're
30:19
looking at years of this. I also on the research saw that
30:25
you actually went because you thought, well, if I'm going to
30:28
be going to prison, I'm going to go check out one of the prisons
30:31
around here and one of the federal prisons.
30:32
Yes, yes. You actually did that drive
30:35
around to check it out, which I thought was.
30:37
The I credible. Well, OK, I'm I'm Muhammad Ali.
30:41
I'm Muslim. I, I want which, which jail,
30:43
which, which Federal Correctional Facility camp or LO
30:47
is going to be the best for a Muslim.
30:49
And they said Otisville, they have halal meat and they have
30:52
kosher food. Go check.
30:53
There you go. So.
30:55
It's about two hours from where I live.
30:57
I drove on a Sunday. I checked it out from the
30:59
outside. I said, OK, you know, I'm at
31:01
peace if I don't win in this trial.
31:04
They're willing to. Go.
31:05
I'm prepared. Yeah.
31:07
And you're not going to be there for a couple of weeks for a bad
31:10
camp. You're going to be there for a
31:11
few years and it's quite an experience.
31:16
So let's let's jump into this this court and case.
31:21
Did you feel like Muhammad when you the day that it arrived?
31:27
Did you feel like you were prepared?
31:28
Did you feel confident? How did you feel walking into
31:31
that courtroom? Apprehension, I mean, I, I, I
31:36
apprehensive and, and anxious. There was, there was a lot of
31:43
things. I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a
31:45
scientist, I'm a psychiatrist, you know, I, I, I pride myself
31:50
on being able to read people. There was some questions that I
31:53
didn't have answers to. Neither did my lawyer actually.
31:57
So our first day in trial was actually jury selection.
32:05
And so we basically the, the, the, the court brought in about
32:09
65 potential jurors to choose a panel of 16 people, 1212 jurors
32:16
and four alternates. And basically what we did the,
32:20
the jury selection was just by, like by, by, by elimination.
32:23
So all the jurors, 65 of them sat and basically we had
32:28
questions that we would ask them and they all had numbers and we
32:32
would ask different questions, but some of the questions we
32:35
didn't have answers to. So this was this was a Medicare
32:38
fraud trial. Is it better to have somebody
32:41
who has Medicare or not to have somebody who have Medicare?
32:45
I don't think that we had an answer for that question, but we
32:48
actually ended up picking up three people who are Medicare
32:51
recipients and that ended up being positive.
32:54
Is it better to have somebody who is a federal employee on
32:59
your jury, yes or no? We ended up actually picking up
33:02
two federal employees on my, on my jury panel and it ended up
33:07
being a positive thing. So I, there's a lot of questions
33:11
about jury selection, federal jury selection that we didn't
33:14
have a lot of answers to. And part of it is because
33:17
there's only 1700 trials, criminal trials in the United
33:23
States every year, only 1700 out of out of about 75,000 people
33:29
that get indicted federally every year, only 1700.
33:33
Trials and so it's. Yeah, if you spread it on on
33:36
like like my judge didn't have a trial for like a year and a
33:40
half, didn't have a federal criminal trial for a year and a
33:43
half. I was his first trial in a in a
33:45
while. So there's judges don't have a
33:49
lot of experience in trials in in criminal trials, federal
33:52
criminal trials, US attorneys don't have a lot of trials.
33:56
So like there's, it's only about maybe 20 federal criminal trials
34:01
per US attorney's office every like so, so, so not a lot of
34:06
trials. And so I was lucky that my
34:10
criminal defense attorney had 30 years under his belt and had
34:14
hundreds of state as well as federal criminal trials under
34:18
his belt. And he was, he knew, he knew how
34:21
to run this show much, much better than the US attorney's
34:25
assistant US attorney who was prosecuting this case.
34:29
So everything gets set. You get the you, you get the
34:32
best of the what you can get for the jury.
34:35
Yes, yes. And I guess one of the.
34:38
A funny story with one of the jurors, one of the jurors, one
34:42
of the question is did you hear anything about this case?
34:45
So when this case happened, there was, there was a press
34:48
release from the US Attorney's office and the newspaper wrote
34:51
about it and they wrote, well, you know, they said Doctor Rafi
34:55
through 5, seven years of, of, of practicing, he stole $1.3
35:01
million. So this juror said she raised
35:04
her hand. She says, I heard about this
35:05
case. So basically the judge and my
35:09
attorney, I never, I didn't, I wasn't there to hear the story,
35:12
but my attorney told me this story.
35:14
He says, she says, well, you know, I, I heard this story and
35:18
it's like $1.3 million. I divided that by by by 7 and
35:23
it's like, what kind of loser fraudster is this?
35:26
He's stealing 100, a $150,000 per year.
35:30
Why would he do that? It's like he's a loser
35:33
fraudster. So Needless to say, she got
35:36
eliminated, but that was so. It's funny.
35:40
Even the potential juror who heard about the story of the
35:44
indictment had doubts about like, what was going on.
35:48
What is this government doing that they're saying like, he's a
35:51
doctor, He's he makes much more money.
35:53
Why would he do? Go after this small amount
35:56
Exactly. So you get into this case,
36:01
Muhammad and you, I think is it 2?
36:05
It's just two witnesses that you have on your side, right?
36:08
I, I only, I only, I only had two witnesses.
36:10
So basically the prosecution, the federal government brings in
36:13
their witnesses. They brought in eight witnesses,
36:16
OK, two of them were experts. And then they had, they had six
36:20
other people, 2 agents. And then they brought in four of
36:24
my employees that they that they strong armed and.
36:27
Right. Scared to death?
36:28
Testifying against me and that I, I, I was lucky and, and, and
36:34
they couldn't find one patient who would badmouth me.
36:38
There's not even one patient they could find.
36:40
You know, it's like the federal government is pretty successful.
36:42
It's like they interviewed 8 patients.
36:45
They couldn't find one patient who would say 1 bad word about
36:48
Doctor Rafi. So Doctor Rafi, he you get
36:54
through all the the they're witnesses and then then it's
36:58
your turn, right. So, so one of their witnesses,
37:01
the main expert, this is, this is the a big shout out to my, my
37:06
attorney, Mr. Paul Hetznecker. He cross examined her very
37:10
effectively. And this is this was, you know,
37:12
I talked about this audit that they did in 2017.
37:16
They never told us the results until court until the the that
37:20
we didn't know. Yeah, you didn't know.
37:21
But then when we looked at the audit results, because when I
37:25
did the audit, we had an attorney and a coder that looked
37:28
at it and we found out that the whole, the entire results were
37:32
fabricated. Basically they said that I
37:36
billed for patients on days that they didn't, they didn't have
37:40
records, they didn't, they didn't ask for records.
37:43
And then it turns out that I never saw the patient on those
37:46
dates, never billed for the patient on those dates.
37:49
And I was like, it was complete fabrication.
37:53
And, and my attorney, Mr. Paul Hetznecker drilled that witness.
37:58
She started crying on the stand. It was she was a nurse and she
38:02
was like a coder auditor and she got scared because.
38:06
Like a Perry Mason moment. Because yes, yeah, it was a
38:09
Perry Mason moment. And then at the end of her
38:13
testimony, he got her to say that she does not support the
38:19
entire investigation, the entire prosecution by CMS or the
38:25
federal government or the Department of Justice.
38:27
Wow. And that was their witness.
38:29
That that that was their witness and we ended on that.
38:32
That was after her starting to cry on the stand.
38:35
And I think that was the that was the changeover moment
38:40
because the jurors were just on the edge of their seats
38:43
listening to this expert that the government got.
38:47
This is the government's expert. It should be a slam dunk.
38:50
And she's crying on the stand. I think that was that was the
38:54
change. That would I, I, I sure sounds
38:56
like a game changer. I mean, I, I would think that
38:59
the jury who's who's listening would have been saucer eyed to
39:03
to hear the back and forth. So who were your witnesses?
39:08
So my witnesses I got, I got the coder that the coder who who
39:12
looked at the audit and and he came expert coder knows his
39:17
stuff. And he said, you know, the
39:20
business of psychiatry is pretty simple.
39:22
It's like you talk to the patient, you prescribe him
39:25
medications, it's straightforward.
39:27
He simplified things for the jurors and they just understood
39:32
the whole thing. And then he was, he was
39:35
successful in conveying that message to the jurors that look,
39:38
Doctor Refi's business is not very complex.
39:41
The government is telling you it's complex.
39:43
And you got to understand, oh, you can never understand what it
39:46
is. Believe us, this is it.
39:48
He says like, no, no, no, it's straightforward.
39:50
He has only two services, two things he has like, OK, he has
39:55
rice and potatoes. And that's like, there's nothing
39:58
else. And he was very successful in
40:01
explaining things to the jury. And then I had a psychiatrist, a
40:05
practicing psychiatrist. I'm not from my area, from
40:09
Georgia. And he came and he had this,
40:11
this Southern twang Georgian accent.
40:14
And he's like, what, what, what y'all folks are doing here?
40:17
It's like this is this is bread and butter psychiatry.
40:20
This is there's Doctor Rafael did nothing wrong.
40:23
I practice probably he's practicing like 99% of all
40:28
psychiatrists. There's nothing there.
40:30
There's no fraud. I have no, no reason to come
40:33
here and testify on his behalf. This is just bread and butter
40:37
psychiatry. And I think the jury listened to
40:39
him very, very well. And, and, and.
40:44
I I forgot to ask you, Mohammed, how long did this trial last?
40:49
So the the trial started on a on a Monday was jury selection.
40:54
It ran through Friday and then the next week ran from Monday
41:00
and the closing, basically closing statement, closing
41:06
remarks were on Wednesday and the case went to the jury on
41:10
Wednesday and that was Wednesday, May the 8th.
41:15
Wednesday, May the 8th, I'm sure.
41:16
You're 2024. How long did you have to wait
41:19
with the? Jury So, so the the the case
41:22
went to the jury in the afternoon around 2:00.
41:27
After they had lunch, they went into deliberation for about an
41:32
hour, an hour and a half and they came back.
41:36
Wow, Where, where were you? Like, 'cause I mean, what were,
41:40
what were you thinking Like when this jury goes to deliberation,
41:43
what were your thoughts as they left the courtroom?
41:46
I I'm just praying. I'm just praying.
41:48
I'm asking, asking God for, for, for help.
41:51
I'm I'm a pretty spiritual, religious person and I asked God
41:55
for help. In an hour and a half later they
41:58
came back. That's really that's really
42:01
fast. And I thought it was the verdict
42:05
and they said no, no, we want the judge to reread the jury
42:09
instructions for us. OK.
42:12
So, so maybe they would, they would, some of some of them were
42:14
having doubts or so the judge reread the jury instruction for
42:18
them another hour and then they said they want to they want to
42:22
adjourn for the day. So that was that was 4 at 4:00
42:28
4/30 and they went home and then and then we came back on
42:33
Thursday morning. They started deliberation again
42:36
at 9:30 in the morning and at 10:15 they came back and they
42:41
said they have a verdict. Wow, so they caught they just
42:47
like the movies. I mean so they they file.
42:51
They're walking in one, one by one, and I'm standing.
42:54
My lawyer is standing. What?
42:56
Was what was the amount of time that you could have received?
42:59
You know how they deal with those charges.
43:01
The government said up to 40 years. 40 years, yeah.
43:03
Yes, 10/10/10 charges. 4 charges with 10 years each. 10 years
43:08
each. So 40 years, but I mean it, it,
43:11
it there's, there's a table, but and, and it's about the loss
43:14
amount also. But they they scare you.
43:17
They said 40 years. You could get up to 40 years.
43:20
That would be the rest of your life.
43:21
Yeah. So.
43:23
So you stand in there. I'm standing there.
43:26
And, and I, I didn't know, but I noticed that it was a lady who
43:31
was carrying the envelope the, the jury for women.
43:35
And I, I swear she looked at me and smiled.
43:39
But I, I don't know. They handed the, the envelope to
43:44
the, to the judge and the judge opens it.
43:47
He reads it. He hands it back to the bailiff.
43:49
The bailiff hands it to the, to the jury.
43:52
And he says, and the judge says, ladies and gentlemen of the
43:55
jury, have you reached a verdict?
43:57
And basically it was it was not guilty on all charges for four
44:03
not guilties. Wow, you must have just felt
44:06
like you could float. For a second, because the
44:11
prosecutor says, judge, we want to survey the entire jury, so
44:16
every juror has to say not guilty four times.
44:19
Oh. My gosh.
44:21
So, so that gives another chance for maybe a juror to say I
44:26
changed my mind or like. I've never seen that done, but
44:30
you don't see very many cases. They do that with every every
44:33
every. Trying to get trying to get a
44:35
juror to What's that? Trying to get a juror to to
44:39
change their opinion, Yes. Or their verdict?
44:41
Yeah. So they surveyed surveyed the
44:43
jury and it was 4 not guilty's on every 1248 not guilty's.
44:48
I meant to ask you with when you're going through all this,
44:52
it obviously cost you money. How did it affect your business?
44:56
It affected the business a lot. I mean, so this is how, this is
45:02
how people sometimes don't realize kind of how
45:06
dysfunctional the federal government is.
45:09
So I am being prosecuted by the United States Department of
45:13
Justice. I am being prosecuted by the
45:16
Office of Inspector General for Department of Health and Human
45:19
Services, the Center for Medicare Services, that who
45:23
administers Medicare services is separate from those.
45:28
And they sent me a letter saying, Doctor Rafi, we
45:32
understand the federal, that the United States Department of
45:35
Justice is prosecuting you. We don't know what's going on,
45:39
but we like you. We want you to continue to see
45:42
our patients, but we can't pay you.
45:44
But please continue to see our patients, our Medicare patients.
45:48
But we will do a payment suspension.
45:50
If you're found not guilty, we'll pay you back.
45:53
If you're found guilty, tough luck.
45:56
That money will go go into, into your restitution and then, and
45:59
then you're just banned into, into Neverland again of not
46:04
being able to practice. But you see how much there's
46:08
like a, a dichotomy and, and, and a complete separation.
46:12
And in fact, after the not guilty verdict, because they
46:17
needed me so much, they turned back my Medicare privileges
46:21
within like 2 months. Immediately they said, oh,
46:25
Doctor Rafael, we're going to pay you back.
46:27
Oh, oh, we're, we want you to see these patients.
46:30
And to this day, I continue to see patients.
46:33
So, so it, it, it was very interesting how just you live in
46:37
this twilight zone where it's like, OK, so they want me to see
46:41
the patients, but the Department of Justice says I'm a fraudster.
46:44
Which one is it? Isn't that crazy?
46:47
I mean, if you really think about it, if you're supposed to
46:49
be this bad guy, why in the world would they want you to see
46:52
the patients? I mean that just where does that
46:55
all make sense? It just doesn't.
46:57
And I was lucky. I had patients that came to
47:02
court and testified on my behalf.
47:05
The government did not even have one patient they could bring and
47:09
say Doctor Rafael was a bad doctor.
47:11
I had five patients, Medicare recipients that came to court
47:16
and testified on my behalf. There's even one patient who
47:19
actually started crying and she said he saved my life, release
47:24
him. She started yelling and telling
47:26
to the jury, release him, release him, release him.
47:29
So that was that was I, I was lucky that my, my patients
47:33
endorsed me and and and and stood up for me.
47:37
I'd admit the world to you. So what does Doctor Refi do
47:41
walking out of that courtroom? How do you get back into your
47:45
life? I I, I'm still numb.
47:49
I mean, I, I it's. How long has it been?
47:51
It, it, it was May, May 2024. So, so this is this is August
47:57
2025. So it's been about 15 months
47:59
now, Yeah. A little over a year and I know
48:03
that you're kind of in the midst of trying to get those dollars
48:08
back that you defended yourself with through this whole process.
48:11
What's what's that like? Sure, sure.
48:14
So, so the story. I think it was like over
48:16
$1,000,000 wasn't. It yes, yes.
48:17
So I was, I was lucky that I was supported by, by my family.
48:22
You know, I have, I have three brothers who were physicians and
48:25
we just band together because they believed in me.
48:28
They believed in their little brother that he wasn't a
48:30
fraudster, he wasn't a thief. He does everything ethically and
48:35
protect his patients. And, and, and we band together
48:38
and we paid as much, as long as, as much as is needed to, to
48:42
basically to get experts to get a lawyer, to get a, to get a
48:48
psychiatrist to testify on behalf investigators.
48:52
We, we, we did not leave a stone unturned.
48:55
And just to show how dysfunctional that the federal
48:59
government is. So basically, after I was found
49:02
not guilty, I went on, on my, on my, on my life.
49:06
And, and you know, I wanted, six months later, I wanted to travel
49:11
and, and I didn't want to go to travel and like on, on a
49:13
vacation. I, I'm a spiritual religious
49:16
person. I wanted to travel to Mecca and
49:19
so on a on a after Christmas 2024, I went to renew my
49:26
passport that had expired and I was at the passport center in
49:30
Philadelphia, PA. And basically I said, can I
49:35
renew my passport? I, I'm traveling within, I had
49:37
taken an appointment. I can, I, I'm traveling a few
49:39
days. I didn't anticipate that I was
49:41
going to travel, but it expires. And so they, they took my
49:45
passport, my application, and then they said, can you have a
49:48
seat? And then like like 3 minutes
49:52
later, somebody taps on my shoulder and I and I look back
49:56
and there's two armed police officers from the Department of
50:00
State Security. And they said, Mr. Rafi, how do
50:06
you have your passport? I said, I have my passports.
50:10
Like what? What's going on?
50:11
They said, well, the federal database have you still under
50:15
indictment and that the federal government wants you.
50:18
And how do you have the passport?
50:20
Didn't you hand it in? I said, yeah, I went to trial,
50:23
and I was found not guilty. So they take me to a detention
50:27
area and they said we have to arrest you and send you to the
50:31
federal detention center in Philadelphia.
50:34
And I said, but I went to trial. Can you call my judge?
50:38
Somebody needs a phone call? Yes.
50:41
So actually they were, they were nice and actually called my
50:44
judge and the judge said he went to trial, I'm going to send you
50:47
the order. He was found not guilty.
50:51
And apparently basically because of this function of the federal
50:55
government, they never recorded the the not guilty verdict into
50:59
the federal database. So I was still wanted.
51:02
Is that crazy? So I ended up actually applying
51:06
to the court my my lawyer was busy at that time so I ended up
51:11
applying to the court pro SE myself asking the judge to
51:16
rerecord the order in in basically in the court docket.
51:21
And basically the judge kind of made a comment that this resets
51:28
the clock for me if I wanted to apply for basically sanctions
51:34
and attorneys fees from the federal government.
51:37
And on top of it, I applied for expungement.
51:41
And so that legal battle is ongoing now.
51:44
Wow, that's incredible. So it never ends.
51:50
It never ends, but in the meantime, you you founded a
51:53
company called Shield that helps other professionals out in
51:57
situations like, can you talk about that?
51:59
Sure, sure. So SHIELD is, is an acronym for
52:02
Support and Help in Ethical Legal Defense.
52:05
And I help professionals, physicians, as well as other
52:08
professionals who are going through legal issues or federal
52:15
indictments or even state indictments and just guide them
52:20
through how to go through this situation and how to make the
52:24
best informed decisions as possible.
52:27
As I talk about it in my book, kind of just like the, the
52:31
decision tree is very, very difficult and depends on, on, on
52:35
on the person's situation. And so it's very, very important
52:39
that they understand the decision that they're making and
52:43
sometimes without guidance from somebody who's been through that
52:47
path. Lived experience.
52:48
Absolutely, they may not be able and I may not have the, the best
52:51
answers for them, but I, I will tell them because because I've,
52:55
I've been through this journey, I, I've, I have friends who have
52:59
been through this journey. I I know experiences of other
53:02
people and and I can tap into the experiences of people that
53:07
have been in this in this situation and can at least
53:10
advise them or tell them where to get the best possible advice.
53:15
That's great. And you have your own podcast.
53:17
I have my own podcast. I started my own podcast
53:20
actually after my my experience at the at the Federal at the
53:26
Passport Center in Philadelphia. The next day I started my.
53:29
Podcast and talked about my experience.
53:33
It's an AI powered podcast and it's called The Virtual
53:36
Psychiatrist. The virtual psychiatrist which
53:39
is perfect for you right down your pathway.
53:43
So what do you think after all that you've been through,
53:48
Mohammed? Everything that you've
53:49
experienced, what do you think's your biggest take away through
53:52
it all? I tell, I tell people, you know,
53:55
listen, the federal, the federal system is very, very complex.
54:00
It's, it's the, the, the rules and regulations are very, very
54:06
complex. You know, there's, there's a
54:08
book that everybody, every professional who practices their
54:11
profession in the United States breaks three federal laws every
54:16
day, unbeknownst to them that, that, that anytime any of us
54:22
could go, could be federally indicted for something that they
54:26
don't know about and could go to jail for a long time.
54:30
This is how many laws on the book we have that that some, and
54:35
I gave I, I wrote an article in a on a blog and gave an example
54:39
that, that, for example, a physician or or a lawyer could
54:44
basically have an expired fire extinguisher in their office and
54:49
they potentially could be federally indicted because of
54:55
False Claims Act basically because the expired fire
55:02
extinguisher makes them not in compliance with state laws.
55:05
And then every service that they submitted, for example, if
55:08
they're a contractor with the federal government is a
55:10
fraudulent service. And that's it.
55:13
They they. Have no idea.
55:14
Down that road and, and, and it's like even if expired by one
55:18
day, you could have fraudulent services on that day and that's
55:22
it. That's the end of you and.
55:23
That's, that's a really good point too, because the, the,
55:28
you're grown up to believe that the breaking the law is all
55:32
about intent. There's so many thousands upon
55:35
thousands upon thousands of laws.
55:37
There's, there's can be all kinds of things where there's
55:40
never an intent. It's just part of the
55:42
circumstances of where we are with the statutes and laws that
55:46
we have on the books. And they can use those to their
55:49
benefit and their efforts are when they're, they're trying to,
55:53
to tag somebody. I think it's amazing.
55:56
I think your story is fascinating because you're just,
56:00
you're, you're like walking through the eye of the needle
56:04
and you did it. And, and I, I'm so, I, I'm so
56:08
glad that you are using what you've experienced to help
56:12
others with it, because so many people get into that world of
56:17
the unknown dealing with especially the federal
56:20
government. It's just so overwhelming.
56:23
You know, somebody gets something in the mail and then
56:26
you're indicted and then you see it's the United States of
56:28
America versus your name. There's nothing more
56:30
overwhelming than that. And how you tackle that and live
56:34
through that. Like you said, everybody's
56:37
situation's a little bit different, but there are certain
56:39
things and principles that you could go by because of your
56:43
lived experience that you can tell somebody to help them out.
56:45
And that's a big deal. Big deal.
56:48
Never talk to the police, never talk to the.
56:50
Police. Never.
56:52
Ever. That's such a good, good tip.
56:56
And I want to I want to bring up your book again.
57:00
It's it's, it's doctor not guilty.
57:02
It's out on Amazon. Just came out at the end of
57:04
July. So check it out.
57:06
I'm going to be buying it myself.
57:07
I I was reading the the cover part of it on Amazon is it
57:11
sounds fascinating and your story's fascinating.
57:14
I'm so glad that you made it through Doctor Raffi.
57:17
So if if people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way
57:25
to find you? They could, they could.
57:27
They could find me on my website, itsalirifai.com, that's
57:33
ALYR ifai.com. They can.
57:39
They can find me. I have a phone number, I have an
57:41
e-mail that they could contact me very, very easily and I'm
57:45
available I, I and, and our website Shield is actually
57:49
online now and running Shield dot expert is the website Shield
57:55
SHIELD dot expert. Perfect.
58:00
And I want to give a shout out to Homestead Financial Home
58:03
Mortgage. They they let me use this
58:05
podcast for you with all the fancy lights and cameras and
58:08
anybody's got home mortgage needs out there.
58:10
Greg Afdev is your guy. He knows all that stuff.
58:12
He can walk you through it. I've got a book out there too.
58:15
It's it's a nightmare success. Well, it's a betrayal.
58:18
Light behind bars, adapting, finally breaking free.
58:21
Check it out on Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
58:25
Go to brentcassidy.com if you want to check out what I'm
58:28
doing. I spell it wrong.
58:29
I spell it with a Ty, not a DY, as I used to say when I was
58:33
talking and emailing to my people from Leavenworth.
58:36
Stay strong. I'll do the same.
58:38
Doctor Rafi, you, you have, you have survived a lot of different
58:42
things in your life and you're still walking and talking and I,
58:45
I appreciate you coming on today and sharing your story.
58:48
I'm, I'm excited and it's my, my pleasure and stay tuned because
58:52
I have, I have a chapter 2 of this, of this story and, and we
58:56
may have another jury trial. So I, I won't talk about that,
59:00
but there there may be another jury trial and I'll tell you
59:02
about that next time. I can't wait to hear it.
59:06
Nightmare success in and out.