Latest / Infidels / The Deen Fallacy: Why the West Keeps Misreading Islam | Elaine Ellinger
Transcript
- Richard Landes: Welcome to Infidel Awareness Month. For 400 years, the West has answered one question wrong, and almost everything that has gone wrong since has followed that single error. And the question is, what kind of a phenomenon is Islam? The West's answer has been a religion, in which it tends to mean what it means for religions in modern democracies. A private faith like Christianity or Judaism that belongs in the mosque and the heart and can sit quietly beside our laws, our schools, our commerce. My guest has spent a career showing that this answer is a mistranslation, and the mistranslation has been catastrophic. My guest is Elaine Ellinger, and she is the rare analyst who argues only from Islam's own authoritative sources. Quran, the Hadith, the classic manuals of sacred law, and remarkably the Islamic school curricula today themselves. To write one of her books, she read 5,000 pages of what Islamic schools teach children, grades 1 through 12, across the English-speaking world, which is an it's an accomplishment of concentration I certainly don't think I'd be capable of. A Canadian, she came to the subject in nineteen eighty-three through her work in social services and child protection, and she has since written The Deen Fallacy, a Civilizational Reckoning, and The Hidden Curriculum of Islamic Schools, along with more than 80 articles in an educational video series. She doesn't stop at the diagnosis, however, Rare among the voices this month, she brings a proposed cure, a legal standard she calls the threshold, a single neutral test that every belief system, not Islam alone, would have to pass to receive the public privileges of a recognized religion. One thing she and I both insist on before we begin, the subject is a doctrine and a system, not the world's Muslims as human beings. In her own words, quote. You are not fighting Muslims, you are fighting doctrine. Unquote. Keep that distinction in mind because it is the key to the entire hour. Elaine Ellinger, welcome to Infidel Awareness. Elaine Ellinger: Well, thank you very much for having me, Richard. It's really an honor to be here and participate in what I hope will become an annual event. Richard Landes: I hope so too. All right. Elaine, start us at the root. You argue the West made one foundational error about Islam four hundred years ago and never corrected it. What was the error? Elaine Ellinger: Yes, I'll I'll get to that in one second, but first I want to address something you just said, and that was about you know, opposing Islam, and that is does not mean that you are against Muslims. In fact, I would go even further and say by opposing Islam, you are for Muslims because Muslims suffer as well. I see it every day. So I'll go on and speak about the deen. So the Richard Landes: Okay, l let me just add one thing to what you just said, which is that if you look at the statistics of the victims of Jihad terror attacks since nine eleven, the vast majority are Muslims. Elaine Ellinger: Yeah, and and they're killed in Africa as well, in Nigeria if they don't go along. That happened recently. A group that was resisting. So we're working for everyone here. Richard Landes: Alright. Elaine Ellinger: Okay. So Islam is a deen and it calls itself a deen. And it you know, we've heard this term for years, what's going on with the deen. In fact, a series in the in the books I was reading is called the Deen Family series. But people have not really understood what that word meant. And myself, in fact, I didn't understand it thoroughly until I read the school text. Now I saw when when I wrote a civilizational reckoning, I saw that in one school text it said, Islam is not a religion, it is a deen, said that on page two. But when I got to when when I read the entire curriculum, it became very clear very quickly how big the error was that that we that we made. What the children are told, and I will read it to you from the school textbook here. Richard Landes: Now this is a school textbook this is a school textbook that's being taught Elaine Ellinger: All right, it says Yeah, it's cool textbook. Yep. Richard Landes: to diaspora Muslims. This is Muslims Elaine Ellinger: Yes, this Richard Landes: in the West. Elaine Ellinger: yes. yes, yes, English speaking. It's published in every major English speaking country. It's published in the UK, Canada, US, Australia. And what they are taught in grade twelve specifically, I'm quoting here, Deen in fact denotes a system of belief, a code of life. It does not merely signify the spiritual fulfillment of the individual. It means all matters pertaining to a way of life, for it encompasses religion, law, trade, commerce, morality, politics, justice, food, drinks, clothing, in fact, all aspects of life relating to people's thought or actions, and in grade eight they are taught that Sharia virtually is the deen, that they are indivisible. So When we speak of Islam as being a religion, we could just as easily call it a corporation, a restaurant, because it it gar it it has law for all of these things. Primarily it is a system of law and it governs all these different aspects of life. So it is more than a rival civilization, because most civilizations don't tell people how they should. sleep or what they should think. but Islam does. Yeah. Richard Landes: So let me ask you a question. the word Din, is that the same word in Hebrew which means a ruling, justice, law? Elaine Ellinger: Yeah, we'll we'll get to yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we we will get to that because the word Deen appl applies when Islam is speaking about a civilization and it uses that word in regards to Judaism, but nevertheless they are quite different. They're very different. And we'll get to that when I think Richard Landes: Okay. Elaine Ellinger: you you asked me about that later. Richard Landes: Go ahead. Elaine Ellinger: I think that's a question that's that's coming. But an another thing I want to say is how it came about. So once I realized this, that's why I wrote the Deen Fallacy, I had to see how this happened. And I I think he said in the introduction that Durayer translated the Quran French in 1647. And in the Dominion verses, because as you say, it's used almost a hundred times in the Quran. In all the Dominion verses which say that Islam is going to that the Islamic deen will replace all other deens it is superior to them, that he he translated that as law. But now we translate as religion. So how did that happen? Well, it started actually with trading companies, and we get into this later, but Britain was reaching out to India, to Nigeria, to the Middle East. To all of these different places, but it began with the Middle East wanting spices, and that was Queen Elizabeth back in the 16th century. And so they came back and they said, well, they're more or less heretical Christians, but they would look around and they would see trade and slavery and all of these different things and assume it's civil law, not realize that this is considered part of what they are calling a religion. So back in the Richard Landes: So they were projecting their own mentality. Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: Yeah, absolutely. And then in in the seventeenth century, we had a philosopher by the name of John Locke. He was a very influential man. And what he suggested is we should not be fighting about religion. And this is in the age of enlightenment, that r religion should all be tolerated. And that is really what has been brought forward. That religion should be tolerated and this makes for better governance, this makes for better commerce. And you know, to a in a sense, that is correct, but he underestimated, we have all underestimated exactly what Islam is. And this was called the theory of toleration. And he also said, though, that there that toleration should not extend to doctrines that are contrary to the preservation of a civil society. Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Elaine Ellinger: And that religious bodies that claim d domination over others. or those whose allegiance places them under an external jurisdiction. And of course Islam does that. So y that's how we've ended up with this problem, is we've adopted the the theory of toleration and tolerance, but we haven't counted on Islam, which does not. Richard Landes: Wow. All right. So Tell us about your work on the textbooks, because that that's something that Elaine Ellinger: Yeah. Richard Landes: I was completely unaware of. Elaine Ellinger: Mm. There there was there was a a previous study done and it Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: was it it took a lot of textbooks, quite a variety. It didn't include the series that I have because my series was published in 2010, 2011, and it says that there was a dire need for this series because there wasn't another one that went right from grade one to twelve. So they had quite an assortment. And they looked at the different books. But if it said peace, they went, that's wonderful. Because they had no proper understanding of the doctrine itself. And you cannot evaluate Islam looking at it through a Western lens. So just as I've explained what Deen is to you now, they had no understanding of that. And and for example, language, okay, so I've I've got to find I had something here about language. Yes. Like a free woman in Islam is a woman who wears a veil or a burqa and she is free from man-made law. So when when you have like yes, all right, and and truth truth must be consistent with sharia. What is good, what the jurisprudence, Islamic jurisprudence said. Is that good is not what reason considers good. The measure of good and bad is sacred law, not reason. So the children are actually very poorly informed. and and certainly for your average Westerner being able to critique this is absolutely ridiculous. They can't. So I I'll read to you here from this Islamic book of jurisprudence. It's called Reliance of the Traveler. It's a classic manual of Islamic Richard Landes: famous. Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: sacred law. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: And it says, as for the basic obligation of Islam and what relates to tenets of faith, it is adequate for one to believe in everything brought by Muhammad. And and below that it says what befits the common people is to refrain from discussing the subtleties of scholastic theology, lest corruption difficult to eliminate. find its way into their basic religious convictions. Rather, it is fitter for them to confine themselves to contentment with the above-mentioned absolute certainty. So scholarship is not really encouraged in Islam unless you are going to progress. So when we get in in the early grades, okay, the children are the the children are Basically, it's behavior modification, conditioning, and learning. There's Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: ritual, there's repetition, they're learning Arabic that they don't understand what it means. and there's a lot of fear used. Okay. So Muhammad said, I've been made successful with fear, but that fear is not only against the non Muslim, which the doctrine refers to as the kafir quite frequently. It's a derogatory term. It is also used, Richard Landes: Infidelity. Elaine Ellinger: yeah. Well, Richard Landes: What? Elaine Ellinger: it it's used it's used against the Muslims as well. So there's Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: a lot of fear imagery in the books and things like when you go into the bathroom, people have no idea the hundreds of supplications that they say in a day. And if you go in the bathroom, you have to step with the left foot foot first and say a certain supplication to protect yourself from the male and female devils. So this this is the kind of thing we're allowing to be taught in in our schools. And and and yeah, you know, we're relying on Muslim authorities to select the curriculum, but you can't expect Muslims to guide children away from a doctrine that they are obligated to guide us towards. So the children are being guided towards Sharia. Now, when they get to grades 11 and 12, then there's there's recommended reading. And you know that it's the kids that do the recommended reading that are going to end up with the scholarships. Those are the ones that are going to end up being the imams. And when I say Islamic scholar for the benefit of the audience, I am always referring to someone in Islamic studies. So if you say an American scholar, you could be talking about any discipline. But if you say, Richard Landes: A medievalist. Elaine Ellinger: yes, but if you say Islamic scholar, you're talking about Islamic studies. So when Richard Landes: Yeah. Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: they get into grades. 11 and 12, they're getting recommended reading lists. Now, because I've I've read the whole curriculum, I know where the narrative is coming from. It's largely coming from Ibn Ishaq, and he is from the eighth century, highly respected Islamic scholar, and he wrote the The Life of Muhammad, the Sirah, it's called, and that was translated by Guillaume. And if you want to know who Muhammad is, as Peter McLaughlin says, he's the author of Easy Meat. He says, just read the table of contents of the the sera of Muhammad, and that will tell you exactly what Islam is about. But they are never directed to Ibn Ishaq because if they were directed to Ibn Ishaq, that would fill in the gaps that the teaching leaves, because the children are not only misled, they are told that Islam has the best human rights in the world, because then they'll be really good little apparatus for Sharia. They're they're told things like Islam has abolished slavery, which Islam can never do because it is halal. Muhammad, and and they're never told that, you know, Muhammad had slaves. No, no, no, he freed slaves. They'll tell them that. But he captured, Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: he bought, he sold, he traded slaves. And the children are never told this. But in grade 11 and 12, the recommended reading, Is Yasser Qadi. it's Mao Doodi, the Pakistani who basically Islamized Pakistan's banks and and everything, brought in the Hadad punishments, Sayyid Kup from the Muslim Brotherhood. The these are the people that the scholars basically think that the advanced children who are doing the recommended reading, this is where they should be studying. So this is what we're encouraging in our schools, and we're opening more schools. every day and we should close all of them because what they're teaching is antithetical to our charters and constitutions. Richard Landes: So wait a minute. first of all, for the readers who are the listeners who don't know the details, Said Kuttab was probably the most prominent Muslim Brotherhood, I guess you could call him a theologian, apocalyptic, the basically brought into the Muslim Brotherhood of Very radical anti Western Jihad message, which had very strong elements of apocalypticism. One of the really good descriptions of him is in Paul Berman's Terror and Liberalism, where he spends a good deal of time on Said Kutuk. So you're saying they're taking some of the most radical, violently anti infidel, supremacist. Muslim teachings and giving this to high school kids in America, in Canada. Elaine Ellinger: I wouldn't use that description. I I call them devout Muslims because that's what the doctrine teaches. There's nothing radical about them. Richard Landes: Let's take for example takfir, which is declaring somebody an apostate. Now that's something that Muslims can do, but some Muslims would use it very sparingly, and others would use it very generously. And so I would call the Muslims who use it easily to identify. fellow Muslims as unacceptable dissidents, I would call th them radical. You wouldn't? Elaine Ellinger: No. No, because the ones that you're saying don't want to enforce that are the radicals because they're not following the doctrine. The doctrine says apostates should be killed. And a doctrine says that if you kill a a non Muslim that or a an apostate, that Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: there's no you know penalty for that because Richard Landes: Right. They deserve it. Right, Elaine Ellinger: it's someone who deserves to die anyway. Richard Landes: right. Elaine Ellinger: Well, when that's what the doctrine says, you can hardly call what you you pronounce it much better than I do. Richard Landes: Good tip. Elaine Ellinger: Well yeah, kutb what what he's teaching, you hardly call that radical. It's coming right straight from the text. And that's another thing is, you know, when when, you know, eighty to ninety percent of terrorist groups in so called in any, you know, non-Islamic country are Islamic, there's a reason for that. Ha ha. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Okay. All right. So what's the story? there's a WhatsApp group? Elaine Ellinger: My deen. yes, my deen. And he promises exactly now this is a devout Muslim. Yes, you Richard Landes: Mighty Can we Could we sign up? Can we sign up or do they Elaine Ellinger: you could. I have signed up for different things that have been offered just to see how they work sometimes. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: but yes, no, I didn't I didn't sign up for this. Although there's money involved, it offers money. So what the founder promises. is to bring Islam back to its roots. And in fact, he quotes, he quotes the doctrine when he says that every hundred years there will be raised someone who will restore the deen and this is a factory reset. And Richard Landes: The Muja did. Elaine Ellinger: yes, and there yeah and there is a there's a sample lesson that you can go to and it says, you know, the poor Muslims, they were so weak. And it shows a picture of, you know, hundreds, if not thousands, of armed mounted warriors, all right, going to Mecca. For him to say that, and that's that's another thing, like with the the language and and why we cannot properly adjudicate, like I said, you know, for a free free woman what that that really Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: means. When Islam says it's oppressed, that means that it's not able to practice Sharia in full. All right. And Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: yes, so this is this is the approach of this. And it says how weak they were and oppressed they were Richard Landes: Right. And same thing when they call for right, right. And when they call for Elaine Ellinger: And at the same time the Richard Landes: justice in Palestine, it's not our notion of justice. Elaine Ellinger: No, no. And and at the same time they show, you know, an image of of thousands of warriors and the fact that, you know, when Muhammad returned to Mecca, he did so with 10,000 armed warriors. And the the other thing, you know, about language and about using, you know, I think this is the this is the segment in the series that's about how we're taken for fools. Now, I I hate to pick on the king. But I will, because at Ramadan he said, he he quoted, yes. Yes, yes, yeah, yes, yes. And he Richard Landes: This is the King of England or Great Britain, right? Charles the third. Elaine Ellinger: he quoted he quoted the Quran and he said that you know Allah will not burden a soul beyond what it what it can bear. And when you say that much, then it sounds lovely. But Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Elaine Ellinger: if you say the rest of it, It's about conquering the non Muslim and you know and and bringing joy basically to the heart of the Muslim. That's the end of it, all right? But even the the you should not burden a soul beyond what what it can bear. This is the verse that is used to justify Hadad punishments. So when you stone someone to death or you cut the hand off of a thief, Allah does not burden a soul beyond what it can bear. And here we have the King of England quoting this and thinking he's saying something kind. That is how confused we are. Richard Landes: All right, so why do you think we're so confused? All right. That's okay. All right. Elaine Ellinger: back to my deen. I'm I'm sorry, I got I got off track there. With with with my deen, yes, he he has got it's he went from like four thousand, you know, supporters to twenty thousand overnight. thousands and thousands of dollars are coming his way. Like it's growing like crazy because the Muslims who are proponents of Sharia are supporting him. And he figures he has a target of like eight million million people who basically can can do this course and he's offering money involved with it. There it was on LinkedIn, I was looking at it. There's all kinds of young Muslims who are reaching out from around the world wanting to participate in this. And and yeah, that's that's what's going on. Richard Landes: Wow. All right, listen, you raised an issue which is dear to my heart as a student of millennial expectations, particularly surrounding dates like every hundred years or every thousand years. So the the tradition is called the tradition of the Mujadid, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, which is every hundred years there comes what they call a renewer. in my analysis, at the approach, he is a a mahti, a messianic figure. And with the passage of it, he's sort of retrospectively viewed as renewing the religion and a a more conservative opinion. And of course, at least in my work and some others like David Cook, The Mujahid of fourteen hundred was huge. That's nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty. And I gather that's true for your work as well. Elaine Ellinger: Yes. in in nineteen seventy nine, there was not only a revolution in Iran, there was also one in Mecca and like Iran, there was a media blackout. So people didn't really hear about it. There is a whole book on the subject Richard Landes: Interesting. Elaine Ellinger: though. Richard Landes: yeah, it's excellent book. yeah. Elaine Ellinger: you've read it. Okay. So what happened was the there was a group said they had the Mahdi. They got into the Mecca and they brought armaments, which is forbidden. And they did it by bringing it in in caskets in a funeral procession. So they Richard Landes: Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: were armed. And they took over the Kaaba. And because it's forbidden, and like I said, there is so much fear involved in Islam of what will happen if you. you know, if you do things you shouldn't, the police would not take up arms against these men. Neither would the military. So there's the king in a position. What can we do? And pragmatic politician that he is, most are, he calls on the Elima, and there must be some way we can bend these rules. And of course they did. They made a deal. They said, All right, we will declare that these are not Muslims, these are kafirs. Because of course they've stepped outside the fold, so no problem with that. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: And therefore they can be killed. But in order to get this fatwa, we want you to agree to something as well, because we rather sympathize with what these people are trying to accomplish here. And that Richard Landes: Yeah, right, right, right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: is a return to, you know, the the hardcore Islam and and get rid of these televisions, you know, get the girls back in their in their hijabs or their burkas. And because Saudi Arabia was becoming too liberal. And so they said, we want you to take that oil money that you've got there and use it for dawah and proselytize and get into the schools, send it into the schools. And that's when it began. Yes, yes. And it's worked Richard Landes: The schools in the West. Yes, the schools in the West. Elaine Ellinger: a treat. It's worked to treat. You know, ISCAP has done some very good work there. Richard Landes: Absolute. Elaine Ellinger: Yeah, billions of billions of dollars have flowed. Richard Landes: Right. Yeah. And in fact, we've structured Infidel Awareness Month on that, that there's a hundred years war going from fourteen hundred to fifteen hundred in the Muslim calendar. By fifteen hundred they ex they want and expect to have a global caliphate. For the first half of it, we've done nothing. We haven't fought. And for the last twenty-five years they've been attacking democracies. after softening them up by radicalizing their mosques and communities. And now we have it's halftime and we we have to we have to show up on the field and start defending ourselves. So so yeah so this Elaine Ellinger: Well, I'd I'd kinda like to say something about the caliphate. I think we're we're a little bit out of out of order here. but Richard Landes: Okay. Elaine Ellinger: I I I've got that down around question number six. I've got some notes on that because Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: De facto, we have something better than a caliphate going on right now, all Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Elaine Ellinger: right, for Islam. Because with electronic communication, all right, Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: you can get a fatwa, you know, before lunch from Cairo, no matter where you are. Richard Landes: Right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: And fatwas, Islam is very decentralized. There's no you know, overseer to say, no, you can't have that fatwa. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: So who is qualified to issue a fatwa? There are millions that are issued every year. Alazar University has many, there are many sources of them. You can get one online. So there are millions of fatwas that are already issued. So there's no reason that a Muslim needs to or should be following the law of the land if it differs in any way or it's in regards to an Islamic matter, they're simply going to get a fatwa. That's why there's millions of them. So Richard Landes: Let's see. Elaine Ellinger: it is already cross border. That's already Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Elaine Ellinger: all going on. Now, if they had a caliphate, there would be somebody who say, No, we're following this school. We're not following so Richard Landes: I see. Elaine Ellinger: we're we're you see? Because I mean, there's four major schools of thought. And and you know, he would be appointing the judges. You would still have all of these different imams, muftis, et cetera, who would be able to issue fatwas, but there would be more control. So they're better off without it. I mean, why do you need it? You know, right now you you've got all the benefits without it be because the West is helping to support it. yeah. Richard Landes: Okay. Hurry. Okay, so explain what you mean by the difference between Deen and religion and in particular explain how that differs the Deen of Islam differs from the Deen of Judaism, which also prescribes behavior, dress, food and has its own laws. Elaine Ellinger: Yes, it does. But Islam has a whole lot more. All right. Islam has jihad. Jizya. Now that is a really big one because for Judaism, you also have Siddaka. I've probably said that wrong as well. And it's charity and it's for charity. Richard Landes: No, that's right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: Well, for Islam, it has jizya sorry, not jizya. It has a Richard Landes: Zaga. Elaine Ellinger: zakat and it has eight categories, which according to The jurisprudence should be divided equally amongst all eight. And they have all of these accounting, AAOIFI is this major accounting system, overseer in Islam. So it says, I think it's on page 896, yes, you should be funding jihad. This isn't some archaic whatever, neither is Muhammad. Muhammad's example is not history, it is precedent. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: And y and you understand precedent, right? So so that's Richard Landes: Yeah, and some of the stuff he did is not very nice. Elaine Ellinger: Definitely not. And neither is what some of his captains did very nice. And he would just send them out again and again. some of it is horrific. Some of it is on a level that I couldn't even say on this video because it is so horrific. And then he would just send that. And in fact, the one I'm thinking of in particular, Zaid, he was guaranteed paradise in his lifetime. Muhammad said, I know you're going to go to paradise. And the things he did, some of them just incredible. So anyway, but back to Islam versus Judaism here. So Islam has jihad, it has jizya, it has conquered populations, it kills apostates. Sharia does or or Judaism does none of those things. It has communal obligations of Dawah to spread it, proselytize, all right. The jihad to enjoy the right and forbid the wrong. So when we have a group gathering outside a Texas shop protesting, Because the Muslim in there is selling alcohol or pork or whatever he did in America, because they are supposed to enforce this the principle of Islam. It is one of the communal duties. There is the the pillars of Islam, five of them that that are personal that we hear about. We don't hear about the communal duties, which include jihad and enforcing the right. And it's a sin if you yeah. Richard Landes: The communality this right. And that and and and th and that's jihad not in the sense that we're told which is a struggle within to do the right thing, it's Elaine Ellinger: Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Yeah. Richard Landes: actual war on infidels. Elaine Ellinger: Yes, yes, yes, yes. So you know, Judaism doesn't have anything like that, it doesn't have a proselytizing mission, it doesn't have jihad, it it doesn't have zakat in perpetuity funding jihad, okay? And I will say, you know, about the moderates, the things that they would like to see removed are the things that have are the reason for its success. You know, the Islamic calendar doesn't begin with this preaching in Mecca, it begins with the migration. to Medina, the the formation of is an Islamic State and and the onset of Jihad. That's where the calendar begins. That's where the success came from. So, you know Richard Landes: Uhhuh. And and part of the success is the threat to execute anybody who leaves the religions. So you don't have you don't have much apostasy. Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: Well, that's conscription. Yeah, you know, and and they have no equivalent doctrine regarding deception, which we'll get to. nothing like that. You know, it Richard Landes: the Jews have no doctrine of deception. Right, quite the contrary. Elaine Ellinger: is Islam condones deception. And Judaism has a principle that I will that I will say completely wrong. my pronunciation. I I don't even try. Anyway, Dina Dinah da Mal Malkutta Dinah. And there we have the Dina word, okay? But it is Richard Landes: Right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: the law of the land is the law. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: And Islam is not like that. Islam is definitely not like that. Richard Landes: that's interesting. That's really interesting. Yes. Dina de Mahuta Dina. Right. So for example, in Judaism there are no laws against marijuana, but if the law of the land says no marijuana, then for Jews it's no marijuana. Elaine Ellinger: Well, see, that's that's another thing we have with the creeping Sharia. Where Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Elaine Ellinger: we have left blanks in the law is supposed to exist liberty, but for Sharia it does not. So that's a usurpation of constitutional Richard Landes: Right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: law in itself. The liberty, the white space on the page is supposed to be white. Well, sorry, that might get me in trouble, but let's make Richard Landes: Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: it very clear. we'll go get to Islamophobia soon. But Islam has absolutely nothing to do with race. This is just ludicrous. So anyway, yeah. Richard Landes: Right, right. Okay, so Elaine Ellinger: Not not to mention, I I mean, I will make one other point, and that is Muhammad is a founding model. I mean, he is not Christ, is he? And Christ was a Jew. Everyone remember that. Okay? It's like Muhammad is the perfect example for all mankind, all mankind, not Muslims. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: And he is the prophet for all mankind, whereas other prophets were sent only to their people. That is what Islam teaches. Richard Landes: And the last profit. Right. Elaine Ellinger: Yes. So, you know, with the founding model like Muhammad, you know, who who just I I mean, yes, he had plenty of slaves. And so of course it's a lao forever. But you know, he conquered all kinds of territories, demanded the jizya traveled, you know, hundreds of miles to do this and then called it defensive. And then promised yeah, promised paradise. Yeah. To what we Richard Landes: Right, and just Yeah, and right. Elaine Ellinger: would to what we would Richard Landes: Go ahead. Elaine Ellinger: consider the vilest human beings are the ones who are given the greatest honor. You know, someone said. Name to me a deed that is as good as jihad. And Muhammad said, No, there there isn't, you know. no, he said tell me the best deed. And Muhammad said, Jihad. Now he said other things too, but then you know it's a dualistic belief system or Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: a dualistic system of law. And and so when he was in Medina, he said one thing, when he was in Mecca, and he said another. So they're all true. So we'll get to that. When Islam is weak, you hear the Mecca verses, and then when it's strong, you hear the Medina verses. But you know. The cherry on the cake has got to be paradise, all right. Now, this is back inalia. I mean, this is this carnal paradise where you are Richard Landes: Right, right, right. Elaine Ellinger: guaranteed all of these luscious virgins, perpetual virgins, and the things that you aren't allowed to have in life. I mean, that's totally carnal, isn't it? You know, that's where you get the wine and the boys Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: like pearls. It's not good. Richard Landes: I one of the things that you mentioned, I'd like to actually go into it. you didn't mention the Treaty of Khudaibiah, which was a deception. Well when they were weak, they made the treaty, and as soon as they were strong, Elaine Ellinger: Exactly. They didn't know. Richard Landes: they broke the treaty. there's Elaine Ellinger: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Richard Landes: a great line in Frank Herbert's Children of Dune. Elaine Ellinger: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: When I am weak, When I am weaker than you, I will demand freedom because that is according to your principles. When I am stronger than you, I will take your freedom away because that is according to my principles, which is Elaine Ellinger: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: a pretty good description of what we're dealing with. Elaine Ellinger: Well, yeah, i Islamic jurisprudence says that you are not to have any treaty more than ten years. It does not coexist. It it doesn't that's that's not the goal of Islam. Yeah, the Dominion verses make that very clear. They all make that very clear. And Richard Landes: Right. All right. Elaine Ellinger: and that's another thing, you know, when I read wrote the the hidden curriculum, you know, the supremacism, that's actually something you have to look at in every grade, how that is being encouraged. So Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: recently there was an ex video with a young boy in Germany and he was saying, Well, you know, the Germans are our servants because, you know, except for the the Arabs living here. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: they th they they are our servants. He's only thirteen years old because this is what the doctrine teaches. Richard Landes: Right, right. Yeah, so when so when Westerners give social services to their Muslim immigrants, the Muslim immigrants view it as they're paying the jizya. This is coming to me. I I there's no reason I should be I should be show any gratitude for this because this is coming to me. Right. Elaine Ellinger: Yes, what they're entitled to. Yeah. Exactly. And that's another reason. Why bother with the caliphate? We're doing a great job right now. you know, I mean, Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: Chowdhury has described it as, you know, jizya no more than they're due. And in fact, I know a woman who was working with battered women many years ago in London, and Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. Elaine Ellinger: she would tried going to one of the moderate mosques to see what was going on and She said there were like 20 people there and thousands of people at the mosque down the street. And, you know, they are a lot of them were on welfare when they were really, you know, more or less second wives, et cetera. Now, in an Islamic state, you have to support that second or third wife yourself. Here you can get income assistance. And they they said to her, Well, you know, it's no more than we're due. Richard Landes: All right. Now describe I mean, essentially what you're describing, starting in fourteen hundred, nineteen let's call it nineteen eighty to round off the number. what you're describing is a systematic invasion of the West, which goes through various phases. Can you walk us through those? Elaine Ellinger: Mm-hmm. I think we we we we might have skipped something here. you you wanted to discuss the umma with me. Richard Landes: All right. Elaine Ellinger: because it really needs to be described. back Richard Landes: Okay. Elaine Ellinger: when it when Muhammad made the the migration to to Medina, he established Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: the Ummah and he segregated the world. And the umma are the transnational, the the global community of Muslims. And what they have in common really came home to me when I wrote the hidden curriculum because I saw how there were hundreds of supplications that children were required to memorize in Arabic, which means that someone can come to Canada from Pakistan and go to a mosque and carry on sort of a conversation, no doubt. But the ummah is it's it's bound by a common law, a common source of authority, a common body of doctrine, a common calendar, a common system of taxation, the which finances jihad. And when we buy halal products, we're contributing to that because the prophets must pay we that they must pay. I said jizya when I meant zakat, they must pay zakat. So it all contributes to jihad against ourselves when we certify halal. But they have a common system of taxation, that's it, common religious obligations, common language, and common obligation of loyalty among believers. And its institutions may be local, but its identity, authority, structure, and objectives are global. So it functions as a nation without borders. So, you know, I have said that. I I've I've written in my books, the West doesn't recognize war unless it is declared by a nation state and for Islam, the doctrine is that declaration. So it doesn't need to be declared. There Richard Landes: There is no there is no nation state, right, right. Elaine Ellinger: there is no need to have a caliphate because everything is in place now with a a global UMA with the migration to make that a fact. Yeah. Richard Landes: And then when somebody like Osama bin Laden in nineteen I believe it was nineteen ninety eight declared jihad on America, nobody took him seriously. Elaine Ellinger: Mm-hmm. yeah, I know. It it well, that's that's exactly what's happening. And people want to point to the Muslim Brotherhood, please. That is only a symptom. And yes, they established the the Muslim student associations back in 1965. But there have been so many since then. Can I put my hand on it quickly? Yeah, I can. Okay, this one here is written by this one here is written by Yaslin Zine. And she's making the case for Canadian Islamic schools, Richard Landes: But Elaine Ellinger: right? Saying how, you know, how badly they are needed. But the beginning of the book, in the acknowledgement, she thanks the genuine support, the generous support of the International Institute of Islamic Thought and their generous funding. Well, they're named in the Muslim Brotherhood. explanatory memorandum, right? The same group that are funding her. Okay. But Richard Landes: right. That's nineteen ninety two. Right, right. Elaine Ellinger: they have spawned from from there's thousands of them. And they have, you know, apps if you want to file a workplace complaint. And they've got the lawyers, the journalists, the publishers, they, you know, they have it all. And and we're helping with that. So you know the idea Richard Landes: And because and because we're conflict averse, we back down. Elaine Ellinger: absolutely. Yes, always. And and the idea that we can fight all these battles and win when we're tied up in our own laws. You know, I I've said sometimes that if the US had had the, you know, all the laws now that it had when it fought the battle of independence, it wouldn't be independent because it would still be in court fighting for it. Are we allowed to do this? And that's when you make your law your idol, okay? Does the law serve us? Do we serve the law? What's going on here? The law needs to serve us and we need to save ourselves. Richard Landes: right. Right. Three stages. Elaine Ellinger: asking about the three stages. Okay. So the three stages is when it's weak, you hear the verses from Mecca. And they're true, they can be used when they're useful because they came from Allah. They can be used anytime. But they have been superseded by others. So Islamic jurists know that. So when it comes to law, then you're looking at the the later verses. And the Quran itself says that, you know, if we forget a verse or we can bring Another one and and of course that's that's what happened. So when it's weak you hear the Mecca verses, and then when it's strong, or you know, this is you know, like phase two. That's when the infrastructure has been established, just like Muhammad did. It it follows his pattern. It always follows his pattern over and over. It's just rinse and repeat. He goes to Mecca, he establishes the umah, he he gets some strength, we have the infrastructure, then the attacks. Medina, I'm sorry, yes. Richard Landes: He goes to Medina. Right. He goes to Medina. Right. Elaine Ellinger: So that's what happens. So then the infrastructure is established, the mosques, you know, and then you have the population. So Muhammad said to marry women who are loving and fertile because he would brag to the other prophets about their numbers. And of course, that's exactly what happens as well. And and then when it's dominant, you see what you see in Nigeria now, and and of course. Richard Landes: What do we see in the what what do we see in Nigeria right now? Elaine Ellinger: Well, we're gonna get to Nigeria in a moment, but we see slaughter. Okay. You see jihad on a regular basis. Okay. But the other thing is that deception is permitted in Islam. And it, you know, and Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: it's used in such a way. So that for an example, one that we hear quite often is Quran 5 32. And what you hear is that whoever whoever kills one innocent is it's as if they've killed all mankind. That's actually taken. from Judaism, except Richard Landes: Right, from Winto. Elaine Ellinger: that yeah, in the Quran it is directed to the children of Israel. It's not directed to Muslims. And then it goes on to say to wage war against to to kill and you Richard Landes: The unbelievers. Right. Elaine Ellinger: know anyone who disobeys. And when you look up the tafsir, Richard Landes: NOOOO Elaine Ellinger: the commentary for Quran 533, it says Waging war so far as Islam is concerned is to oppose it. That's wage waging war. So if I oppose Islam, I am waging war. And in fact, in fact, on a LinkedIn post I had done one time, which remarkably was actually about Nigeria, there was a a Canadian Cesus person. Who came back against me, who's who adheres to Islam. And he said something that I like I was trying to wage war against Islam, that I was waging war against Islam. And if I thought I could do anything about it, I was gonna need a bigger boat, right? So this is someone who's supposed to be defending Canada and our values, all Richard Landes: Right. Right. Elaine Ellinger: right? Not what's happening to the the Christians in Nigeria. So it this is somebody who's supposed to be defending our country. So I'm saying there's a conf conflicted loyalties. How can you swear on a Quran and then defend America? How c this is, you know, totally impossible. Yeah. So this when Richard Landes: Right. Right. Right. Okay. Elaine Ellinger: you're in phase three, then you're you're getting Nigeria. So yeah. Richard Landes: All right, tell us what's happening in Nigeria. Elaine Ellinger: wrote. They appeased Islam and they it it guarantees equal protection, equal citizenship. But what it actually does is it allows sections 275 and 277, like it does in India, to have personal Muslim law. So the very fact that they do that shows that they know that Islam is a system of law. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: But but what that means is that the northern states have established to dud punishments They're enforcing Sharia full out. So what they were hoping to do was avoid partition. They have partition in in India, but Richard Landes: India and Pakistan. Elaine Ellinger: yeah, but they never took any precaution. They they left that same exception in India so that Richard Landes: All right. Elaine Ellinger: the Muslims could have personal law and it just grows and grows and grows. So any any country that wants to remain free of Sharia has to make sure that it it does that in law. Richard Landes: Right. All right. So then actually we l let's move to you have some interesting recommendations for how to deal with this. Elaine Ellinger: Yeah, I I do. I I just want to see that it Islamophobia, of course, is a nonsense word. It's appropriating you know, medical terminology. It's not in the American Psychological Association you know, catalog. It it doesn't exist. Racism doesn't exist, you know. What is real Yeah, Richard Landes: Right. We d right. We dedicate two days to this. Elaine Ellinger: what yeah, what is real is is creedism. And I wanna give the Barnett School example that recently in the UK. the the education system is funding a school that makes wearing a hijab compulsory. Richard Landes: Wow. Elaine Ellinger: So they are enforcing Islamic law. And this is Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: creedism. And I I hope people will use that word more because it has nothing to do with racism and it has everything to do with enforcing a creed. So when someone is arrested in the UK for burning their own Quran, Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: That is the state enforcing sharia. That's creedism. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, you know, Richard Landes: Right. Blasphemy laws. Yeah, yeah. Elaine Ellinger: Islamophobia is a blasphemy law on training wheels. So you you wanna know about Richard Landes: That's a great line. Elaine Ellinger: All right. Okay. So we what I propose is a a legal threat threshold and it is neutral. Everyone has to pass it. And the important thing is to remember you are not against anything. You are for human rights. We always have to come from a place of good, of wanting, you know, everyone to to have a good life. And so so that's it. You know, whoever presents this, in my opinion, will be a hero because he is standing on a platform of human rights, which at this point should still be able to gain a lot of support. And in fact, from Muslims as well, because Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: they have been taught to believe that Islam has the best human rights in the West. That's that's how they're taught. But the way it works is you have your founding doctrine, all right. So you have your core beliefs. your your your legal system authoritative texts and those have to be weighed against the constitution of your country this can work anywhere i i have done a booklet for India it's for free download on on my website but anyway so you look at the founding doctrine and you you weigh it so does it affirm equality before the law does it reject coercion and violence in enforcing its belief does it protect children and the freedom For apostates to leave, okay, freedom to leave, freedom of religion. Does it reject slavery, polygy, and FGM as religious rights? And does it recognize the supremacy of civil law over any competing law? Now, if it meets all of those, then it is eligible for legal recognition and the associated public benefits. And if it fails that threshold, it is not eligible for legal recognition or public benefits. People can still believe what they want. That is still consistent with the US Constitution, which never promised charitable status to anybody. It said freedom Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: of belief. So the classification has to be at the top level so that it flows downstream. So you look at the founding doctrine because you cannot possibly litigate you know, charity schools, cultural associations, Richard Landes: Made bad big. Elaine Ellinger: you know, finance, all of these things. They would all fall under that. So that would be the end of Islamic finance and the Islamic centers that are pushing Sharia, the workplace accommodations, you know, your gym turned into a prayer room. That would all be gone. Richard Landes: Wow. Let me ask you, you mentioned earlier you've got Muslims who have multiple wives and the state is taking care of them. That would that would that would cancel that kind of public benefits? Elaine Ellinger: let me see. we're we're asking about a detail here. You you would de Richard Landes: I know. Elaine Ellinger: i if it you see, they they aren't admitting now that they are a second or a third wife. They're not admitting that. so Richard Landes: you see. Elaine Ellinger: you you'd have to be able to determine that. So Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: but it but it's like, you know, we're really expecting too much of the founding fathers of our various countries, all right. How how could they possibly have anticipated this? Now, ordinarily, Richard Landes: Right. Have imagined. Right. Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: you know, when an act is written. There are going to be definitions. Well, there's no definition. You can't define religion. Of course you can't. But you can say that it needs to be consistent if it's going to receive benefit. So there's, Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: you know, you have an act, you have regulation, you have policy that that all come down from it. And we don't have that with the constitution. But we can we can establish a classification because that's Richard Landes: Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: ordinary. you know, if you're going to qualify for old age benefit, you've got to be a certain age, you know. I if you're going to get the benefits of a legal father, you can't be the biological father, you have to be the legal father, that sort of thing. Richard Landes: So actually this would be among not only a good way to shall we say throw some sand on the path of Islam's advance, but it would also signal to the public just what the problem is. Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: This is the most wonderful part. It would reverse decades of propaganda because when you, you know, I haven't said anything about publishing and and I will right now. My book, The Hidden Curriculum of Islamic Schools, that should be on every educator's desk. All right. There should be millions of them sold. It should be on the New York Times bestseller list. This is the next generation that we are, you Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: know. But instead, since it was published. There have been 17 EPUBs and 28 print books sold. Now that might sound a little deflating. I'm not embarrassed to admit it because it is not Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: because of the book. It is because of what we have allowed our systems to do. So you know it. Richard Landes: And it's because everybody's afraid that that book is Islamophobic and they don't want to be found with it. Elaine Ellinger: It's well, it's not just that. It's risk management on the part of corporations and a desire to capture that burgeoning market. They're only responsible to the bottom line is it within the law, that's all that matters. All right. They have the experience of Charlie Hebdo and Salmon Rushdie. So Richard Landes: Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: when I published my first book, which we don't mention here, because at that time I was still keeping this threshold idea, trying to reach politicians with it. Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: Finally gave up when AI gave me the opportunity to produce some draft legislation. I decided to publish it. And that's when the second book came out. But with the Richard Landes: Uh-huh. I see. Elaine Ellinger: first book, a friend recommended that I try two publishers I won't name. And so I reached out to them and both of them had a Muslim head of the geopolitical section, and one of them had an overall Muslim head. Richard Landes: Yes. right, right. Elaine Ellinger: So the the loyalty is required. They're in a conflict of interest. Loyalty is Richard Landes: Yeah. Elaine Ellinger: demanded by the Uma. And even if they personally wish to do it, if Richard Landes: Right. Elaine Ellinger: they did approve it, look at the pressure that would be put on them in the community. Richard Landes: Yeah, you know, I had the same experience with my book, which is called Can the Whole World Be Wrong? the answer being yes. and when I tried to publish it, I sent it to an agent who was I was very friendly with, and she was eager, she said, yes, send your book, we'll do what we can. Within two days, I got an answer, we we can't do it. Elaine Ellinger: yeah. you know, mainstream news and alternative news won't touch my stuff. Yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah. Right. Yeah, no, I w I interviewed a a woman who grew up in Sweden, was a journalist in Sweden, went to work, she's Kurdish of origin, speaks Arabic, went to work for Arabic news agencies, got kicked out of Al Jazeera because she interviewed an Israeli, and when she went back to Sweden, she couldn't get a job because there were so many journalists journalists in these various places that Elaine Ellinger: Well, you know, my my books are not on publisher lists, so they're not in bookstores, so they're not in libraries, they're they're not anywhere. it Richard Landes: All right, so tell our readers where we can where they can find them. Elaine Ellinger: Amazon. for ebooks, Apple. Ingram Spark has them and should be able to supply libraries, but my local library told me they weren't able to get it from their regular supplier even when they requested it. so it's yeah, Amaz Amazon and and Apple would probably be the best. But I know Kobo books if you know, for you know, epubs and things like that. And for information about Islam, please. Go to my website. It's called perspectivesonislam.info. Perspectivesonislam.info. Because I provide Richard Landes: All lowercase. Elaine Ellinger: yeah, it does I don't think it matters for a for an Earl, but the the links to all of the foundational doctrine are there. You can get a link to this this book there. you can get Richard Landes: The traveler. Elaine Ellinger: yeah. Reliance of the Traveler. You can get a link to the Sira, the life of Muhammad that I referenced earlier, to the Quran, to good Sunnah search engines. There is a a little video that teaches you how to search it yourself. And there was Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Elaine Ellinger: one other thing I want to read because people want to go, well, you know, that's history. Please, you know, don't look at years because everything moves way too fast now. Think generations. So the current king. This book was dedicated to his grandmother. This is David Roberts, wonderful artist. He went to the Middle East in the 19th century and wrote and and did these wonderful paintings. There's 123 of them in this book. they're somewhat romanticized, but they're very beautiful. And I thought that the audience should hear this. He writes, long strings of women sitting astride on mules or donkeys, all closely muffled up, going from one harem to another, attended by male and female, black and white slaves on foot. So let's stop with the white guilt, please. Ha I've heard enough of Richard Landes: And the white Elaine Ellinger: it. Richard Landes: the white oikophobia, the white loathing of our own culture. Elaine Ellinger: Let's just give that up. Yep. Okay. We were very popular in the Cairo slave markets. yeah, very, very popular indeed. And there have been millions of white slaves. So let's just stop it. And there'll be more Richard Landes: All right. Elaine Ellinger: tomorrow if we don't if we don't smarten up. Richard Landes: All right. Again, the site is Elaine Ellinger: Perspectives on Islam dot info. Richard Landes: God info. Elaine Ellinger: Info, because that's what you get there. And when you go to the resource page, you don't just find my books. There's a lot of other authors there. There's videos, Richard Landes: Excellent. Elaine Ellinger: there's free downloads, you know, Richard Landes: Excellent. Elaine Ellinger: and it's divided up by subject, picture, subject, it goes right there. And I built it myself. Works well. Richard Landes: All right, all right. Well, may you prosper and may your work get the attention it deserves. Elaine Ellinger: Thank you. Okay. Richard Landes: Thank you very much, Aline. Elaine Ellinger: All right, it's been a pleasure.