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Joshua Maddux · Justice For

• JusticeFor: Welcome back Justice Four. We're your hosts. I'm And I'm Sam. first and foremost. Sorry ⁓ Shoot ⁓ guys we show each other pictures all the time before we start episodes ⁓ and the picture I saw I ⁓ generally went I tilted my head I'm like, huh, I know this I know this and then she's playing me the fucking news clips that y'all just heard Before she even played him, I was like, is this the chimney guy? So yes. So if you live in Colorado, you have probably heard of this case. I've heard of it. But you probably know zero details. about it. Like even my husband knew what I was talking about, but just by me saying, so this kid in Woodland Park and he goes, the dude in the chimney. And I was like, ⁓ okay, right. ⁓ So obviously today we're going to dive in the mysterious death of Joshua Maddux ⁓ in Park, Colorado. ⁓ I just realized that I have been doing a lot of Colorado cases lately that have a lot of unanswered questions. Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, today's case is no different. Great. While doing research for this, honestly, I kept thinking about and going back to Kendrick Johnson's case. How these cases are kind of similar and I don't know, I just kept thinking of him and how his case went and how... He died and it's just there's there's parallels here. Yeah So, ⁓ no, but if you haven't listened to kendrick johnson definitely go and listen to that case. It's like it was one of our it's parallels in like the Manner of death the cause of death like how all that went. ⁓ but where we really get opposite is the families a little bit Interesting. Yeah, so and we won't get into all of that For those of you who aren't familiar with colorado Woodland Park is a small mountain town with a population of about 8,000 people and it's located about 20 miles west of Colorado springs. There's 8,000 people in Woodland Park? Yeah, that was my shock too. Like even back in 2008 when this happened, was like 7,000 people. You're kidding me? Yeah, like 8,000 people. didn't think that there's that many. But you know I think? It's kind spread out a little bit. I mean, that makes total sense. Woodland Park is so fucking cute. I love Woodland Park. It's grown so much. It is. It's... And honestly, like, it's 20 miles out of Colorado Springs, and I think they take that from, like, the dead center of Colorado Springs. Yeah. It's really not that far from my house. my daughter has classmates who live in Woodland Park. Yeah. ⁓ So OK, if you look the map of Colorado, like Colorado Springs and Woodland Park. So Colorado Springs is like center of the state, kind of. ⁓ And then Woodland Park is much like just directly west of it. ⁓ The way to get there, is you have to go down. ⁓ And around, so it seems longer than just like a, unless you want to straight trek through the mountains. So, but like also I love it because like they try to keep that mountain town vibe even with all the modern things. So like the Walmart looks like a little cabin. It's precious. And like all the banks look like log cabins. Yeah. I love it so much how they make make all the businesses have this like wood mountainy feel to it. They also have an amazing dinosaur museum. They do. It's the best. Let's go. So before we get into all of this, yes, please make sure that you are liked, followed, subscribed everywhere. So you never miss an episode. Never miss an update. We are officially in season three. Oh, my God, we are. So please go and check out. There could be some new merch because of season three. We definitely been working on things. Our shirts from the live show. A lot of people wanted. So we are definitely making a different version of that for you guys. Yes, yes, yes. And. Yeah, we just have a lot of fun new things coming up. So make sure that you're followed and liked everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you can listen, anywhere you can watch. And that way don't miss anything. And I know we said it last week, but thank you to every single person who came to our live show again. Even the people who just like randomly walked in and found us. Thank you for staying and talking to us. And then all the followers we got from it. Like, we're blessed. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, genuinely genuinely We have the best Fans fans for sure. Followers, listeners, whatever they're called. Lovers. Yes. All right, you ready for this? All right. ⁓ my god, I said yes I don't like this new energy. Take it away. Alright. Joshua Vernon Maddux was born on March 9th, 1990 in Woodland Park, Colorado, where he lived with his mom, Roberta, his dad, Mike, and his three older siblings, Zach, Kate, and Ruth. ⁓ He was the baby? He was the baby. ⁓ Josh was homeschooled until about second grade when his parents enrolled him into the public schools in Woodland Park. And Josh absolutely thrived in school. He was crazy smart, like IQ's off the charts smart. Okay. And he was really creative. So he's like one of them like creative genius types. Scary. Not Sheldon. ⁓ Yeah. Like music and like creativity genius. Not like scary trains. That's autism. Sheldon. Yes. By middle school and high school, he was writing and playing music. He loved to play guitar. He grew his hair out. He had some shoulders. had some great fucking hair. He did. He had good head of hair. And he loved carrying a briefcase instead of a backpack. Period. And he would wear like fedoras and like, like he loved the thrift store. He loved a unique outfit. I it. I unfortunately, he's our age as well. So I know he was probably kind of bullied. Maybe. No, not at all. he was also a bit of a class clown, but like in the best way, in the way that like everybody loved. ⁓ time he grabbed a choir robe and snuck on stage during the choir concert and joined them. And like everybody loved it. ⁓ just, they thought it was hilarious and just such a Josh move. Yeah. But like that's just the kind of kid he was. He was also an insanely good writer. ⁓ During high school, he started his own comic book called Stick Man and Smiley. Right like I just I love that genius. That's actually absolutely you don't have to do shit with that Just a stick figure stick man and smiley so a smiley face period right genius Unfortunately, when Josh was 16, tragedy struck the Maddux family. Josh's older brother, Zach, took his own life at the age of 18, just weeks before he was set to graduate high school. Josh took this loss extremely hard. Josh and his siblings were all really close, but Josh and Zach had a bond that couldn't be explained. They were the two youngest. Even though Josh was struggling to navigate life after Zach's death, he finished high school and was talking about future plans that he wanted to do with his life. He loved being a musician and a writer. What exactly he was going to do with that, he didn't know, but those were his passions. Hell yeah. The morning of May 8th, 2008, 18 year old Josh told his sister that he was going to go for a walk, which was a pretty normal thing for Josh to do since Zach had passed away. He usually returned home by the evening and sometimes it wouldn't be until the next morning. You know, he'd go out for a walk or end up hanging out with some friends or going this way and then he'd just come home the next day. Okay. So May 8th, it was a typical May morning. It was sunny with like that little bit of chill in the air that comes with around like eight o'clock in the morning, you know? it looked like it was going to be a beautiful day and Josh loved hiking. So he just went out. I mean, he just, felt... at Ease Outdoors. He enjoyed it. Especially up in Woodland Park. It's so pretty. Genuinely, you guys should look up. If you're not from here, look up Woodland Park. It's so gorgeous. Like that's also the way to get to Pike's Peak. And Cripple Creek and like all of that. It's just it's so there's so many hiking trails. There's so much to do up there. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It is. But that evening when Josh didn't come home, bells weren't necessarily going off in the Maddux residence because, like I said, sometimes he would stay out overnight and just forget to call back home. I mean, it's 2008. Not everybody had a cell phone at this point. I'm like, I feel like I got my first cell phone around 2008, 2007. It was my sophomore year of high school. I got my cell phone. I'd say probably about 2007. Like smartphones. No, like flip phone. Oh, the first smart. Oh, yeah, yeah, didn't even have smartphones. We had a touch phone that came out senior year. I only know this because my boyfriend got one and it was the coolest thing ever. LG. Yeah, you could just touch it. Played music. That's what it wasn't quite iTunes, but you could have music on it that you think that wasn't just a ringtone. We had iPa- iPhones. No. No, we had the iTouch. The- not the iTouch. The yeah. the Shuff, the iTouch iPod. iPod! The iPod that was like a smartphone, but it wasn't- so old. Yes. Yeah. Thank you guys for all bearing with us on that one. I'm so sorry. We've gone through so much technology. The Zune. ⁓ my gosh, I had the- the Sidekick. Mm-hmm. I mean, I one of them so bad. It was so amazing. Anyway. So it wasn't until the next day when Josh still hadn't come home and no one had heard from him that the Maddux family started to get a little worried. So his dad began calling around all of Josh's friends to see if they had seen him or knew where he was. But no one had seen him or knew where he was. So on May 13th, five days after Josh went for a walk, his dad, called the police and reported him missing. Five days? Yeah. I know five days is kind of wild, right? But yeah, in different interviews, his family said that he was 18 after all, and he was known for going for a walk and occasionally not coming home to the next day. They also just really want to check with everyone they knew first. And honestly, I understand this is two years after losing his brother, and I'm willing to bet there was a good amount of denial happening. And you'll see why I say that in a little bit. Also, I just feel like. He, Josh had said that sometimes, you know, as I'll say this later in here too, as some of us do at 18, I'm going to leave for a few years and, or I'm going to leave and you guys won't see me for a few years or I'm going to do my own thing. You know, you just feel like you need to be independent and from your family. so like, no way. I mean, I did it. I moved to the Springs right after college and just, literally moved to Indiana. I know. So, you know, like his family was like, you know, he had this hard loss. He graduated already, like, or like we're right around graduation. Like we're struggled where he's fine. Okay, you know, I was I just think we had denial from like not wanting to freak out yet That's fair not wanting to think the worst. Yes. I get it I just me personally granted generally in situations like that people aren't thinking straight there they're So I want to put any blame with his family I just know five days sounds a little weird, but I understand it too just from what I've already heard from this He communicated well. Yeah. So if he was gonna be gone for a long period of time, I feel like they would have known. But... When Mike called the police, they were quick to say that Josh probably just ran away. Of fucking course they did. He's 18 and there are no signs of foul play. ⁓ So he'll probably just show up. ⁓ Right. ⁓ I hate when do Like a missing person is a missing person whether they wanted to be missing or not. Like, ⁓ I'm sorry, a missing person a missing person. I agree. I really genuinely wish that there was like protocols in place that like if someone calls in a missing person, they investigate it. Regardless. Regardless ⁓ of like, ⁓ they ran ⁓ Just fucking look into it, even just a fucking little bit. Don't automatically dismiss someone. I'm so over this excuse from cops. Yeah. But, much to my shock, they still put out a missing persons post about Josh. This post described him as having long blonde hair, being six feet tall, and weighing around 150 pounds. Interesting. They also included the fact that Josh was missing the tip of one of his fingers due to a bicycle accident when he was a kid. And that he was still grieving the death of his brother and could be in mental distress. ⁓ Yeah. I didn't quite like that last part because we're making assumptions and then now people are not looking for him. They're just a, I mean, personally, when I hear things like that, I assume we're now looking for a body, like be aware on hiking trails and other stuff. And he went off somewhere instead of like looking for him everywhere. Yeah. Police, along with Josh's family and friends, searched the neighborhood where they lived and nearby campgrounds, hiking trails, any place that Josh liked to go and spend time. After months of searching and no sign of Josh or Josh himself was found, there also weren't any tips coming into the police or family. And for once in a small town, there didn't seem to be any rumors flying around. But we'll get to that later. ⁓ Okay. So as the months turn into years, Josh's family did the only thing they could do. Have hope. ⁓ that hurts. Josh's older sister, Kate, wrote a letter for the Woodland Park paper that has since been taken down, but it was saved in some places. And I want to share a little bit with you to give you an idea of the kind of hope this family is holding on to. ⁓ no. OK. Josh had been known to talk about wanting to leave and coming back in a few years. You know how we all talk at 18 about going out and starting our own lives. Some of us more so, you know, can do this alone. I don't need anyone's help. And that was the kind of vibe Josh gave off with this. So Kate wrote. Since Josh is 18, it's been reasonable to assume he may have decided to leave town to start a new life. As one of his two older sisters, I have always believed this was the case. I have expected Josh to return to my father's house at any time with a wife and small children so that they can meet their grandparents and two aunts. Josh has always been known for his musical and literary talent, so maybe we would find him playing music with a band on tour or catch him writing successful novels under a pen name so that he could keep his preferred lifestyle of solitude in the woods. Right? Damn. Like, my heart just breaks for this family. They lost a son two years prior to this, and now their other son is missing without a trace. So I completely understand how this family could not fathom the thought that Josh had followed in his brother's footsteps. Yeah. I guarantee they were holding on to that both of their sons did not do this to them. Yes. Like, I completely understand mental illness and I have it, babe, don't worry. But that's a tough thing, very tough thing. Like, I understand the person who does ultimately commit suicide feels like they're bettering themselves, but what happens to the family and the grief and the toll it takes on the loved ones is... It is. And it's just... The unknowing is what we can't be like at least they know where their other son is and all that. you know, like that's just got to be another thing that like all you can just do is just have hope about it. Yeah, you know. Other than his family holding onto the hope that he was alive and well out there, not much else is being done. The police had him listed as a missing person, but there were no more searches or really even an active investigation into his disappearance anymore. I mean, did they actually do searches? Yeah, they searched with his family. Okay. I think they just did like on foot like grid search kind of and stuff like that. Like his normal hiking spots, things like that. Yeah. But there was never like deep, deep investigative searches. dogs and stuff like that. Seven years later, August 7th, 2015, less than a mile from the Maddux residence. No fucking way. I think it was like a quarter mile away. Jesus Christ. Chuck Murphy was overseeing the demolition of a cabin on his property that had fallen into despair over the years. This cabin sat away from the road and it was surrounded by trees, so it wasn't something easily seen. The cabin needed to be cleared out in order for new housing development. And something I want to note is this cabin and land was once a part of the Thunderhead Ranch. Do know what that is? No. It was an infamous dining, drinking, and gambling complex owned by Big Bert Bergstrom in the 30s and You see, Bert had come to America from Sweden in 1912 and ran the Thunderbird Inn as a dining and drinking establishment after the end of prohibition He also used the ranch as an illegal gambling and prostitution den until the FBI arrested ⁓ Okay. But the jury found him not guilty. I'm not surprised because probably most of the town was hanging out on there and they wanted it to keep going. Period. Okay. This has absolutely nothing to do with the case, but I thought it was really cool. That's great. Isn't it? That's amazing news. I always bring in random facts like that. love that shit. I mean, we all just learned with the prostitution bill being passed in Denver or or Colorado, that Denver was actually originally built on prostitution as a city. Yeah, so Denver was a bunch of brothels and so was the springs. You have to think about it, the gold rush and all that. makes total sense. We were built on prostitution. God, why were people back in the day so horny? I don't know. at least we have novels now. Anyway, back to Chuck Murphy and his cabin that had been sitting empty for about a decade. Okay. His brother used to live in it, but after he moved out, it was just occasionally checked on. There was such a bad smell coming from it due to animals and like how damp it was around it. So no one really ever went inside and checked on it. But it wasn't like a It just, there was raccoons and things around it. just, it wasn't like a, my God, this smells like a decomposing body. It was just like, it smells awful because like all the rain and the snow and with the park and it's sitting there not being aired out. You just went in, checked around it, made sure nothing was broken into and then left. Chuck was present on August 7th as workers use an excavator to dismantle the chimney from the outside. It was during this part of the demolition that Chuck made a horrific discovery. Wedged above whatever you want to call it, the dapper, the flu, the thing, the thingamajig that you open and close so the smoke doesn't go in the house, but it goes out. Yeah. In this, it's like, it's like a chamber almost in there. Okay. So in this chamber part is appeared to be the body of a young man wearing only a thermal shirt cramped into the fetal position with his legs above his head. His upper body seemed mummified, but his legs were skeletal and detached from his torso. Luckily, this was really the first part of the demolition, meaning the cabin was still pretty much intact and everything came into a halt until the policing and coroner arrived. Hold on. He was only wearing a thermal shirt. Only wearing a thermal shirt. Nothing else. It's kind of like one of those like thin ribbed thermal. Yep. Yep. Yep. I'm not trying to be insensitive right this second, but the fact that his upper body was mummified is kind of awesome. And that his bottom half wasn't. Yeah, I like that was I have a feeling that was because of exposure. I don't know. You know, we don't really touch on that again, by the way. So I mean, that part's really not super focused on. OK. Interesting. Unfortunately, there remains found were positively identified as 18-year-old Joshua Maddux. Josh's family was beyond shocked and heartbroken. Josh was found two blocks from their house. I also it just clicked that you said he was in a fetal position in the chimney. ⁓ They couldn't stop asking themselves, how did they not find him? Was that cabin searched inside or just on the outside? Did they even look near the cabin? Did they even search the cabin at all? They were trying to remember. Yeah. They didn't really think there was a reason. Like, it sat back where it is. I don't know if anybody thought about it or not. I mean, why? But either way, how could anyone have known he was in the chimney? Would anyone have even thought to look there? That's a good question. I feel with how early the search was, ⁓ like assuming how early the searches were, ⁓ if he was in that chimney at that time and they checked that cabin, like yeah, obviously there's all these other smells, but a decom. I mean they were looking within five day after around like the five six day mark so It just depends and also depending on what time of year it's May so we would have been pretty cold up there still Yeah, I'm about to get into the weather here in a little bit. with that though like D comp is a very Extreme smell that you can't forget. I need to remind you guys it is currently May 2nd. Yeah, it is a couple days ago My daughter had a two hour delay at school because Woodland Park in Cripple Creek got six inches of snow. Really? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's supposed to be like mid sixties today. but like mid sixties down here is like forties up there. Cause you know like in July it can be 85 degrees down here, but the top of Pike's Peak is like 40. Yes. Yeah. You got to think about where we're much higher in elevation. Yes. The elevation is very, very different. Regardless though, with his body being mummified to a certain degree, decont may not have actually been happening. And his legs were skeletal. That part has always just kind of... That's so interesting. I don't know why I'm so stuck on this. I was stuck on it too for a little bit, but when I get into other things, you'll become unstuck from that. Unstick me. I'm ready. This wasn't the outcome that Josh's family had hoped for. Yeah. But it was at least some closure for them. Kate told the Huffington Post the last seven years have been really difficult and painful. But given the strange circumstances, it's kind of a miracle that we're having the opportunity now to give him the proper service and burial he deserves. He's not lost anymore. And this isn't how we wanted him to come home, but he has come home and that's important. Period. I also want to note that Woodland Park Media and the Colorado Springs newspapers and stuff did the most incredible thing after this happened. They absolutely did not say anything about his services when they were going to be held or where they were going to be held to give the family absolute privacy. The family did post that on their own, but nobody shared that and nobody focused on that so that it wouldn't become a thing. Amazing. Isn't that incredible? Yeah, they very much like what I yeah, that's unheard of for media. So unheard of because normally they do mention that but there wasn't anything I only see that like on his posts or like in articles that come years after. Yeah. So yeah, I thought that was really cool. Like way to go guys. Yeah. So you want to talk about the autopsy a little bit? Absolutely. I do. Teller County Coroner Al Born performed the autopsy and found no evidence of any drugs in Josh's remains, which Wasn't really surprising because I suspecting that well after seven years and Where his body was and whatnot it'd be really hard to get any traces or know what levels were in there. Yeah The heart tissue showed no signs of trauma. There were no broken bones. ⁓ No marks and there were no bullet holes Okay on September 28th 2015 Al ⁓ born a ruling of accidental death and I quote There is so far no answers to a number of things. It is very confusing. It was not an instant death. How he died is only a matter of speculation. But we know he did not starve to death because that takes many weeks. So then you get on the chain and you have dehydration, which can take just a few days. And the other thing would be hypothermia, which could take a day or two. We have no evidence to say which one came first. Hypothermia can begin when temperatures around 50 degrees Fahrenheit and the Low in woodland Park the night of May 8th, 2008 was 37 degrees. It's possible that Joshua made it into the cabin and became trapped and started exhibiting unusual behavior due to low temperatures. Paradoxical undressing, a phenomenon in which people suffering from hypothermia remove their clothing because they feel hot, is one explanation for why Josh was found mostly undressed. Delirious from exposure, the teenager may have crawled into the chimney in a desperate attempt to find warmth. He then went on to speculate. that Josh also could have climbed into the chimney and become stuck in the brickwork, further stating that Josh's position in the chimney appeared to have been a voluntary act to gain access. So either he climbed up from the bottom to get warm or he went down it like Santa Claus to get into the cabin. Yes, they use the phrase Santa Claus in here, by the way. ⁓ like actually that was like investigators and like the coroner whenever trying to describe what they're trying to say. I mean, I understand it kind of is the best way to describe it. Unfortunately. I get it. I'm gonna need y'all to buckle up for the rest of this episode. Buckled! If you've been here a while, you know what I'm about to say. Oh. ⁓ there's something I haven't told y'all Well, actually it's two things, but that is neither here nor there. Okay. So after Al Bourne releases his ruling in Josh's death, Chuck Murphy, you know the owner of the cabin, comes out and goes, ⁓ not so fast. None of that lines up with what I know about this property and what I saw that day. ⁓ Chuck. go back to day that Josh's body was found. Okay. ⁓ As I've already stated, he was found in the fetal position, legs above head. Uh-huh. His head was positioned as if going down the chimney. Uh-huh. But I don't think we can focus too hard on his exact positioning of ⁓ upright or upside down. Because he could have been moved slightly with this excavator. ⁓ I hate to say also if he was skeletal when muscles moved. was skeletal. I'm saying though with that though, those could have shifted as well. So he may not have started. He was in the fetal position, but I think that his legs, the legs being detached from the torso came with the excavator moving. I think that that was still all placed nicely, I feel like a little bit of a shift happened. But I don't think enough of a shift happened to either flip him upside down or right side up. I think it would lay him down some. You know what I mean? Like it would move him this way. If he's in vertically, I feel like we would shift him like this, not like flip him. Does that make sense? Yeah. So we can't like focus too hard on his. like positioning, I do want to like, have to state it because there are other things that state he's upside down and the coroner really is going with the fact that he was found upside down. Okay. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. don't any diagrams other than other podcasters are making and not police. He was also above the dapper of the flu area. OK? In this kind of like... Flu powder. Box thing type. It's like a box in the chimney. OK. OK? So essentially in like a chamber compartment of the chimney. Not only that, but Chuck said that he couldn't have come down the chimney because in 1990 when he remodeled the cabin and added this fireplace and chimney because the cabin had two of them, they blocked it off. He had them install a heavy metal iron grate, one row of bricks from the top to keep raccoons and other rodents out from getting in. It was heavy and installed into the bricks, not just laying on top. But that isn't all. Josh's clothing was found neatly folded and stacked right outside of the fireplace. ⁓ yeah. And there was a breakfast bar that was ripped off the wall of the cabin and dragged and placed right in front of the fireplace opening. What? What? Yeah. Chuck wasn't the only only person who had an issue with Al Bourne's ruling on Josh's death. His family and the community that knew Josh weren't buying it. They knew there was more to this. And honestly, I have never seen this happen so quickly. But just three days after his initial ruling, Al Bourne decided to reopen the case. way to go Woodland Park for applying pressure. Hell yeah, Chuck. In a statement about why he reopened it, Al Bourne. said. This one just really taxed our brains. We found his clothing just outside the firebox. He only had on a thermal t-shirt. We don't know why he took his clothes off, took his shoes off, his socks off, why he went outside, climbed on the roof, and went down the chimney. ⁓ It was not linear thinking. But then there was the breakfast bar being dragged in front of the fireplace. So he definitely had his suspicions that something else went on here. But he was also being very stubborn about that metal grate that was on top of the chimney, stating it wasn't in any pictures. And so he believes that Josh either removed it or it was already gone before Josh got there. But it was installed inside of the bricks. But it could have been rusted and easy to remove. Even though Chuck Murphy stated multiple times that they took all the metal out before starting demolition and he personally saw the metal grate taken down so he knew it was there because they separate that out before they demolish it so that it's easier to take the materials away. I feel like I want to stress really quick that we don't get a whole lot of rust here except for mostly like on cars because we salt our streets So cars rust. But like I haven't seen a lot taken more than 10 years for that to rust out. Absolutely it would have. Absolutely. More than 10 years for that. ⁓ It would have been a little over 20 years. Yeah, 20 years. ⁓ Ish. Even then... No, after what Al Born believed was a thorough reinvestigation, he released the revised autopsy report. ⁓ I don't like how you said that. ⁓ Where he once again came to the conclusion that Josh's death was accidental. we've come up with the most plausible and it will remain an accident. He did come down the chimney and that is our conclusion. Wow. ⁓ Alborn stood by his decision, implying his hands are tied without more evidence that something nefarious happened. Okay. Honestly, do you have a spot for me to talk about my thoughts? Mm-hmm. Okay, I'll wait. not yet. In statements made after the revised autopsy was released, he said there was no sign of foul play or evidence that anyone else was there. There were no footprints or evidence of drugs. And it would have taken two people to get his body into that position, which was a weird statement to make, in my opinion. His options are accidental death, murder, or undetermined. Based on the evidence he has, accidental death is the only option that makes sense. I mean, to him, but not to everybody else. Just go undetermined After this was released, Chuck Murphy publicly stated, There is no way that guy crawled inside that chimney with the steel webbing. He didn't come down the chimney. He was only wearing his thermal shirt, no pants, no shoes or socks. It's ridiculous to think the teen stripped down to just his shirt, climbed on the roof, and then the chimney, then slid down, knowing he'd be trapped. Chuck has never believed for a minute that Josh's death was an accident. So let's go back to the part where Al said that it would have taken two people to do this. Super odd phrasing. That is very odd. Well, that's because I haven't told y'all about tips that were coming into the police before and after Josh was found. The reason I didn't mention the tips coming in before he was found was because the police pretty much ignored them. But don't take my word for it. Take Reddit user Gentamanjina's word for it. What did you just say to me? Gentamanjina. Okay. Y'all know I don't usually take Reddit users and posts as any form of gospel. I love Reddit though. But homeboy has receipts. hold on. Let me adjust myself. am sat. And in my opinion has done more of an investigation than the police have done. No shit. So, Gentumanjina. I just love his name so much. Okay. Was replying to a post on Reddit that was asking if anyone knew a serial killer or a killer and how did you react when you found out? This is the post that he's posted this in. Okay. And I'm gonna read you parts of it, the parts of it that we haven't already covered, but the whole Reddit thread will be in the show notes. Quote, I went to high school with this skinny dorky hippie named Andy who played guitar in a band. I was never good friends with him or anything, but a year or so after I graduated, one of my good friends, Josh, started hanging out with him and then went missing. Last I heard, Andy was telling another friend, yeah, me and Josh have been spending a lot of time together. We're planning a trip to New Mexico. I didn't really think anything of it until somebody showed me these articles. and then he links articles. Turns out that in addition to becoming a lot scarier looking, Andy had indeed headed down to New Mexico where he found himself shooting the shit with a caretaker of a disabled guy and got invited over to their apartment. The caretaker gets in the shower and when he comes back out, the disabled guy is stabbed to death and Andy's gone. When Andy got arrested, he also claimed to have killed a woman in Taos and stuffed her body in a barrel. The cops had indeed found a woman stuffed in a barrel in Taos. but already had somebody in custody for it and decided to stick with that guy instead. What the fuck?! Years later, I found out that the caretaker had died in a bar fight and without him, the cops didn't have much in the way of evidence somehow, so that case against Andy was dropped. Several of us went to the cops saying, yo, Josh went- Josh who went missing was last seen with Andy who's a murderer. Maybe you should check that out. Despite a fair amount of pestering, nothing ever really came of it. And by nothing, I mean that the police mostly didn't even return our calls. And once, they accidentally cancelled the bulletin on Josh because, and I quote, he's alive and well and living in the next town. Well, spoiler alert, he wasn't. No way. In addition to Josh having last been seen with Andy immediately before his stabbing spree, people called under report having heard rumors that Andy was bragging about having put Josh in a hole. What about the fact that somebody had ripped a heavy bar off the wall in the kitchen and propped it against the fireplace? Or the fact that Josh's stuff was already inside the cabin, meaning A. He'd already broken in and would have locked himself out to have to go in from the chimney. B. He might have noticed that either the flue or the big bar would have prevented him from getting in through the fireplace. Or the fact that when he was found, Josh's knees were above his head, which sounds to me like he would have had to go in head first. Disclaimer, not an expert at all. Or maybe the fact that Josh was barefoot naked from the waist down. This is just my opinion, but I don't care who you are. You don't try to climb head first into a chimney via hole rusted through a metal grate with your dick hanging out. But the most ridiculous part for me is this quote from the corner at the end of the last article I linked. I know it's not a natural death and I'm confident it's not suicide, he said. My other options are an accidental death, homicide, and undetermined cause of death. It's frustrating, we can't pin it down. So your options are accidental, homicide, and undetermined, but you can't seem to pin it down? You're telling me it's almost as though you are unable to determine the cause of death. Well in that case, everybody knows that accidental is the only way to go. Brother. Look, I get that they didn't find enough evidence to arrest Andy or anyone else, but these motherfuckers went ahead and demolished the cabin despite all of this. Josh's body was cremated, and as far as I can tell, nobody even bothered to call Andy to ask if he knew anything. By the way, from what I hear, Andy's still out and about doing his thing when he's not in the mental hospital. It's not that I want somebody to blame. I'm not trying to throw a tantrum because, gimme answers, all I'm saying is I wish they had done some police shit. Open an investigation, try to track down some leads, interview some of the folks who've been calling in tips for last seven years. I don't know, maybe check for some semen or something? Just don't say accidental and dust your hands off and call it a day. Thank you, gentle manjina, for saying what we were all thinking. I love you. Right? But yeah, the going down with his dick out, that is my favorite. Sir, you're a poet. I think I'm in love with you. Who are you? He's a gentle manjina. He is. So he definitely gave more info about Andrew in the investigation and replies to comments underneath this post. And I'm not going to read all of them to you. But there is one I found really interesting. okay. Woodland Park Police Department told me in 2012 that the New Mexico murder charges against Andy were dropped in part due to the bar fight and in part due to his diminished mental capacity and that he was often in Woodland Park when not in the mental hospital. A friend who was semi in touch with one of Andy's siblings told me Andy is in a mental hospital in New Mexico at the moment. I don't know the details about whether when... slash under what circumstances he's allowed to leave. A part of me would like to get in touch with him if only to ask, yo man, did you kill Josh? But if he's as crazy as suggested above, I don't know that I believe his answer either way. And it might just end up fucking with my head. It's also kind of scary and I'm a pussy. Just working on figuring out how to contact him for now. Guess I'll cross that other bridge when I come to it. Addendum. For the record, my thesis isn't that Andy killed Josh. Do I suspect that? Sure. But I'm also open to other possibilities. My thesis is that the circumstances surrounding Josh's death weren't a much more thorough investigation than the one that seems to have taken place. Period. Because even if he was not... involved, he was... involved. You know what I'm saying? Andy? Yes. Do you have any more thoughts on Andy before I tell you about him? I... am... uh, mm... About him personally. No, I don't think I have any thoughts on him. I have a lot of problems with jurisdiction and laws and people ⁓ you know, being free after they do something, heinous, just because there's just not enough. ⁓ basically because the died in the bar fight. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ it got dropped because there was ⁓ like, yeah, they his fingerprints at the scene. They had other stuff, but like there was nobody else pushed the case. the. ⁓ the victim didn't have like a family that was pushing for this. That's bullshit. is really shitty, but the other reason is whenever his attorney had him in the court, his attorney was looking at the judge going, listen, I... I've tried to explain to him so many times why we're here today and what's going on and he has no idea what's actually happening. the judge was trying to talk to him and the judge was like, okay, I'm going to go ahead and enter a non guilty plea on behalf of him. You are not with us today, sir. ⁓ Yeah, so I feel like that's the other reason that was dropped as well. ⁓ I feel like that should have been the reason it dropped. Exactly. What the fuck? They're just dusting it under a damn carpet instead of putting him in a facility where he needs fucking help to not do this again? No, just wait till you hear what else he's done. Bitch. Go. Andrew Richard Newman grew up in the Woodland Park area just like Josh did. His family still resides there as well. And when Andy isn't in a mental institution or prison, he is usually seen around Woodland Park. Well, that hurts my heart. Andy left Willam Park shortly after Josh's disappearance and went to New Mexico, among other places, before landing in Texas, where he spent days going door to door in the Texas heat asking for food or water when two teenagers decided to help him out and invite him in. ⁓ no. ⁓ but they smart, ⁓ they immediately their dad. and was like, hey, this is what's happening. And their dad came straight home, period. And he was like talking to Andy and obviously probably got this vibe that something was off and he was like, hey, I'll give you a ride in the next county if you want. I'll give you a ride somewhere. Like, where do you want to go? Yeah, he drove his ass straight to the police station. Hell yeah. And they fingerprinted him and he was discovered. He was wanted in a few different states for a slew of crimes, including murder. theft, burglary, so this is when he was picked up for the New Mexico, like his fingerprints popped for New Mexico, it popped in Seattle, I think. Seattle? Yeah, Seattle. New Mexico, Seattle, Texas. There's a couple other states in there. I have a feeling it's probably a lot of West Coast. I feel like there's something East too that didn't fit in either. ⁓ but as we already learned, the case in New Mexico fell apart. And ⁓ he just ends up in and out of mental facilities. He was reportedly in a jail in 2021, but his current whereabouts are unknown. was like an armed robbery in Seattle, like a burglary somewhere else. There's this, yeah, he just, he hops on trains and kind of really nomadic life and... It just really reminded me of this Criminal Minds episode where this homeless guy traveled by trains and he would kill entire families. And like, they only noticed it because it was like the same thing happening. And... Apparently, I didn't watch that episode. It's not there yet. Andy reminded me of this episode. So, tips came into the Woodland Park Police about Andy and another person that has never been named. But because all the tips only mention one person at a time, it was never Andy and this other person with Josh, it was Andy and Josh or this other person and Josh. Okay. Never was there tip about all three of them being together. And because no one could really give a specific date or time that Andy was last seen with Josh or Josh was with this other person, investigators were just deeming these tips unreliable. And since it was only one person known to be with Josh, and the coroner believed it would have taken two people to put Josh in the chimney, not one, the conclusion obviously had to be that Josh put himself in the chimney. Drugs are not suspected to be a factor in Josh's death because they didn't find any evidence of Josh having a drug problem or having any relation to drugs during their investigation. at all. Suicide was also taken off the table. Okay. That's nice, at least. Yes. But this isn't even the most frustrating part of this case to me. What's the most frustrating part is something I didn't even know was a thing. Once a coroner rules a death accidental, it essentially ends the investigation. The police can still 100 % investigate it if they believe the coroner made the wrong ruling or if new evidence becomes available. It comes down to the fact that it's a lot harder to get a search warrant and build a case when the coroner has already ruled an accidental death because your cases are built from the coroner. And if the coroner is not willing to side with you and present this to a DA or a jury like this, then you don't have a case and it's a lot harder to get all the stuff you need. You want to add in the limited funding police departments are already dealing with? Not only that. once the coroner rules the death accidental, the case no longer belongs to the police department who originally handled it, which in this case was the Willam Park Police Department. They don't even have his case anymore ⁓ after this accidental ⁓ Isn't that crazy? is crazy. Yeah, so I learned that. I didn't know that that was how that worked. Yeah, I That's crazy. That makes so much sense on like a lot of our other cases. No suspects have ever been named by police. Andy and the other person mentioned above have never been a suspect, more of like a person of interest. But in the years following, police have come out and said that, said the one guy was way too short and couldn't have done it. because no one can provide a date or time that Andy was seen with Josh or prove that Andy was in Woodland Park still when Josh went missing. They have no evidence that either was involved. And as far as they're concerned, it was a horrible accident. And to this day, that's where Josh's case stands. The leading theory out there for law enforcement is that Josh was suffering from hypothermia and in the end stages of hypothermia people tend to take their clothes off. It could be possible that Josh took his clothes off and then tried to climb into a small space that could keep him warm. That doesn't explain him in this upside down positioning or the breakfast bar being ripped off the wall and placed in front. I have a small thing about the breakfast Unless he wanted to keep the heat in and That's the only thing I can think of. Only thing I can think of. But even then, why would he climb into the chimney and not just barricade himself into the main opening right there? The alternate theory being that he tried to climb down the chimney to gain access to the cabin. Then explain how his clothes were already inside if he was trying to break in. And if he wanted to break in, I would assume he looked in all the windows first and tried the doors, so then he would have seen the fireplace was already blocked by the breakfast bar. Yeah. So in my personal opinion, I think their theories are lazy and trash. Yes, I agree. So now, I want to hear your theory on what happened to Josh. Okay. I don't have, I don't think I have like a set theory, I have like tidbits in my mind that I've been piecing through all of this. So and foremost, ⁓ if are actually in the end stages of hypothermia and you're like, fuck, I'm so hot, I need to get my clothes off. Your brain is not thinking properly. Why is his shit folded? And not just taken off. First and foremost. Do you want to know? The folded clothes did not make sense to me until Andy came into play. Yes. Because of a mental thing. probably... ⁓ go. Tell me. ⁓ I called my sister and I asked her about this because social work and therapy and all that. I asked, so when you're in mental institutions... What are your routines and things like that? Is there like, so I thought about Mona and Pretty Little Liars, I'm not gonna lie. Like, they have to make their beds. Do they have to fold their clothes? Their clothes always have to be folded in a pile, is that how they're given them? You think about the clothes, what I see with the clothes folded, the shoes on top sitting right there like that, like a stack of clothing you get given in an institution or a prison. And so my mind instantly went to Andy was, that is ingrained in him to do that. And I don't know if he was in mental institutions before this. I have a feeling. Yeah. So that was my thought process. Like that instantly clicked to Andy once I learned about Andy because I'm like, is a, that is something that even if he did this horrible thing, he would do that. He would do that without knowing he did that. So that's where I go with that one. Yeah, I mean, the folded clothes has stuck with me, I've listened to some podcasts and there's somebody else that's like, this happens in other cases where the clothes are folded neatly near the body. And I'm like, I would like to find those cases now. Thank you. Period. But that's where I went with that. Yeah. Because if you're in in stages, you're not thinking straight. If you're just trying to like. I don't know also he probably would have been fully naked not just the last shirt, so I Don't know. I'm just really Because there was no there was no bullet. There's no stab wounds Anyhow, but you wouldn't know if there was strangulation correct? That's the other thing I was thinking composed to see what no about strangulation Mm-hmm. wasn't an overdose. It's not I I don't know, man. I don't think he put himself in that. I mean, I have a couple of different thoughts. Yeah. Did he meet up with somebody and then got ambushed? I mean, was he seeing a girl and maybe she had a boyfriend and he went there and met this girl, you know, and you're 80 back there. You used to find them at random places to go do it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Ambushed or. maybe he was hanging out with a couple friends. Maybe Andy and this other guy or whoever ⁓ and They dared him to see if he get on the chimney With his dick out. And then he got stuck. Or maybe he was like, oh, or climb up the chimney or go down it. But he didn't want to get his clothes dirty. Remember back in 2008, we were like thermal shirts with like a t-shirt over top of it. So like maybe he just like didn't want to get his clothes dirty. But I don't understand why you take your boxers off like, ow. Yeah. You know, so like maybe that. And then he got stuck. maybe the other people who were with him were like, hi or whatever. And they like, ha ha ha and like block the fireplace and forgot about it. And then a few days later, we're like, oh my God, you know, like I see. But. None of these theories lead to Josh putting himself in there. Correct. There's more to this. Yeah. I just... I can't pinpoint one thought that I have, except the fact that I don't believe he put himself in that chimney. Yeah, there's... There are so many unanswered questions and the only thing that I do know 100 % for sure is that he did not get naked and climb down or up a chimney. And also... I hate the people who are like, well, maybe he was like scaling the chimney on the inside and like slipped. And I'm like, you cannot slip and turn yourself into the fetal position. No. Like you get like before rigor mortis. And I mean, I'm just saying. And he was six foot. The thing is also fifty pounds. Yeah. Also, if he just got stuck in the chimney, if he put himself in that chimney somehow. Mm-hmm or climbed it or whatever. He probably would have died of the dehydration and starvation Not just a very they said starvation and taking too long. So they're going that's what they're dehydration or hypothermia Yeah, so I'm just saying like there would have been other factors involved in it as well besides just hypothermia Because if he was already stuck in the chimney Well, yeah, that's what they're saying is it was either hypothermia or dehydration. That's how they are assuming I know I know but I'm just saying like it just If he was put up there alive. They're saying that that's how he died if he was put up there alive. I don't think he, if he was alive when he was put up there, he was unconscious and the person who put him up there didn't know he was alive. That would be my theory on that. But do you see how I'm kind of like a little Kendrick Johnson-ish with this? 100%. Because it's not quite positional affixiation, but that's also not brought up in any of this. Not at all. That also... is not commonly supposed to be a thing. A matter of But with him folded the way he was, think about infants in their car seats. Why infants aren't supposed to sleep in their car seats is because they're head girls and it can block that. So you have to think about even if he was trying to turn around and do something in there, he could have gotten himself into that. And it's just... Like Kendrick, there's people who were known by other kids to have been around, but the police don't care and don't want to listen to it. why I say the difference is because Kendrick's family is loud. They're so loud. Josh's family. It's just happy to have him home. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so and I understand why they're not loud. Yeah. I fault them in no ways for not being loud at all because I couldn't imagine. But I but if they were loud, I feel like this would have more to it. Well, also, think of it just a little bit further here also is Kendrick was found immediately. Yes. They grieved. him for seven years. So. And there was a lot more with his autopsies and things being hit and other stuff. At least this corner. mean, he has a lot of interviews out there. mean, like this made international headlines, the way. Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was on one of those like. Thousand ways to die. Mm-hmm. It kind of shows, you know Yeah, like it's it was I've been pretty sure like a podcast mentions Germany someone else mentions Australia it's because it's a mystery it is it's people who? Wild yeah and Even with, and it's so wild enough for all of us to know about it, even without knowing the details of it. But I also see why we don't know all the details of it, because nobody really knows. So Josh's family is just still haunted by the unknown. With so many questions left unanswered, they are just left to wonder what happened to him. Which his sister Kate says is the worst part. They try to focus on the memories they have of Josh and the fact that they got to bring him home and lay him to rest. A few years after Josh went missing, his parents actually decided to divorce. But his dad, Mike, remained living in the house that they all lived in, in Woodland Park, just in case Josh decided to come home. Something that a lot of families of missing kids and teens do, make sure that, you know, they want to be there if they decide to come home. Yeah. His dad still lives in Woodland Park and he actually plays music and I believe he plays music with Josh's mom, even though they were divorced. The names are way too similar. Yeah. And ⁓ I don't know if they're still divorced or not, but anyway, I just think it's really cool. They play a lot of local gigs and Josh's love for music really makes sense now. Yes, does. Like a lot of sense and his, I have to give credit to his dad because I found his Facebook. I'm not going to give it to you all, but I found his Facebook and He was like, I think he was in college around the time that Josh disappeared for higher degrees. And he went and did stuff. mean, his professional background is impressive for what he was doing while Josh was missing, after Josh being found, and all of this. What a strong man. Losing both of your sons could break you in ways that you couldn't imagine. But also during this time. His daughters were having babies. And so he's being a grandpa. Yeah. And his grandpa posts are adorable. I feel like, don't get me wrong, we love a girl dad. We always love a girl dad. They're phenomenal. But there's something about a man and his sons. Yeah. Like there's, it's different. Yeah. And he lost both of his. Yeah. And so for him to have this outlook in him doing what he's doing is like, It's really impressive. Are any of his grandchildren boys? I've only seen girls. ⁓ But Kate is private, she's not on, I couldn't find her Facebook. I only know that I found their dad because when I opened up family, it lists all four kids. ⁓ period. So I found Ruth, she does have Facebook, and I believe Ruth is the one who, I believe Ruth had a daughter around the time Josh went missing, or not long after. Okay. But I believe they both have kids now. because they're in different interviews later on, like after his body's found other stuff, and some of them are older, some of are younger. And you never know when pictures are uploaded. But Joshua Vernon Maddux's life was just cut way too short. agree. He had so much life to live, and I just know he would have done incredible things like his sister said. He probably would have wrote a book under a pen name so that he could have lived his private life that he liked. maybe he would have been a musician, just like his dad and his mom. Maybe with them. They'd have their own little band. A little partridge family? Yeah. Josh had the best sense of humor and could always make everyone laugh. would, one time he interjected into the class president's like debate and then declared himself the winner. ⁓ my gosh. So like we all knew this kid in high school. right. And he just, that unique style, just everybody loved him. He was the class clown in the best way. He had that style, but he did it in the way that he was like the popular kid with it, you know? Yeah. We would have been friends with him. 100%. Even though he was still working through the grief of losing his brother, Josh was happy when he disappeared. He was making plans, and even if those plans were just disappearing for a few years and coming back, everyone knew that he would return one day. Josh is survived by his parents and two older sisters who now have kids of their own like we talked about. I just know Josh would have been the best uncle. No, for sure. The Funkle. He would have been the Funkle. Funkle for He would have worn the shirt and everything. yeah. So now, jury I have a question for you. Do you think we got justice for Josh? This is a hard one because I'm not sure. It depends on if you think Josh's death was truly an accident or if you think someone murdered him, whether that be intentionally or not. Yeah. I personally don't think we got justice because I feel like a lot more investigating could have been done. ⁓ huh. I feel like there are too many unanswered questions. But like I said, with the family not pushing for more answers, I don't think any more investigating will ever be done on this. I think the only way we will ever know is if someone ends up confessing to it somewhere down the line, somehow. Yeah. Whether that to get a lighter sentence or something else they're facing, whether it's just to clear a guilty conscience or whether it's they've thought enough time has passed and they're drunk at a party and tell a story. Mm-hmm. You know, secrets don't stay secrets forever. Yep. I mean, do you agree with that for justice? Oh, I 100 % agree with that. I think it depends on what you guys personally believe happened. Yeah. Based off of what I believe, I don't think we have justice. And I don't think we're going to. No. I mean, the justice we do have is that Josh is home. He's home. They know. They know. And he's buried next to his brother Zach. It's beautiful. I popped pictures right up here. is their resting place is gorgeous. Yeah. Gorgeous headstone for sure. ⁓ yes. Both of them. It's beautiful. But now, jury you got to head on over to our socials because I got a few questions for you. Or you can comment on Spotify, comment on the YouTube. Leave a review on the YouTube. I sound so old. You could even leave it in the review on Apple because I like it when other podcasts do that. And then I'm confused reading the reviews because y'all are just answering questions for episodes. So what do you think happened to Josh? Do you think this was an accident or do think he was murdered? Mm hmm. Do you think there is more to Andy's part of this story? I feel it. I feel it. Yeah, I feel it in my soul. That's my loins. That was my case today. ⁓ That's one that I've been intrigued about, for a while. I'm not going to lie. I've always seen that one, and I've been intrigued about it for a little while. And I've been wanting to dive deeper into it. I'm glad I did. I'm also happy you did. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode, because next week. I'm scared. Got us a new box of tissues. Don't look like that. I'm scared. I don't want to listen to it, but I have to go listen to it right now. I'm not ready for this. I'm not ready for this because this is the this is this is why we took a week off before season three because she was bawling on Snapchat to me and then she was finishing a couple things before we started and she's like crying and I'm like cool cool cool cool cool. So on that note with that being said make sure you have liked followed and subscribed everywhere Apple Spotify YouTube Facebook Instagram TikTok so that you can cry with us next week and be extremely sad. Yeah, you don't want to miss that also follow for our discussion post cool season three merch We've got some awesome stuff happening and coming up. I'm just so excited bro. It's season three I can't ⁓ you got anything else? No, I'm gonna go because we need to prepare for this. Anyway, you guys so much for being here. Please, please, have a very safe week. ⁓ Last week was St. Goethe Meijer. I hope you enjoyed that we will catch you guys. nails did. They were adorable. I don't know if you can see them. I have to my nails done. Don't. Don't look. They're tacos. Have a lovely, lovely week. We will catch you guys next week. Please bring tissues. We will see you then. OK? Love you. Bye.