Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 172:1-2. Interest: The Lender Using the Borrower’s Property/ Collateral

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Yoreh De’ah 172:1-2. Interest: The Lender Using the Borrower’s Property/ Collateral · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:01
  OK, good morning. We are continuing Ribis Kuf iron
• 0:06
  base about using a house or a field as a moshka.
• 0:14
  So we already started olive, right?
• 0:17
  The main Sigya is Mushkanta Desura where there is you
• 0:24
  basically you, the malve is only going to collect from this piece
• 0:31
  of from this land by using its produce.
• 0:35
  Or if it's a house, you're going to rent it out to somebody else,
• 0:37
  use it yourself. The only that's also how you're
• 0:43
  going to get paid back. So even if you're getting, even
• 0:48
  though it might have more value to you, it's not called ribbus,
• 0:53
  right? You're lending out something,
• 0:54
  let's just say $1000 and now you're getting to use this house
• 0:59
  or use this field and use the produce or rent it out and it
• 1:02
  might be worth $2000 for you. But that's not ribis.
• 1:06
  It's considered sale or sciros. You're renting and it's it's
• 1:15
  much, you're allowed to rent an item and make a profit out of
• 1:18
  it. It's not considered right.
• 1:22
  And then the risk is there's a risk over here.
• 1:25
  You might take a loss. That's part of it.
• 1:27
  You could only collect from this Mushkante de Sur.
• 1:30
  If something happens then. Yeah.
• 1:35
  So there's there's a risk evolved.
• 1:36
  And so that's what you're doing. You're renting this out and
• 1:39
  that's part of the risk. OK, so you're not getting money
• 1:43
  in return and that's why. And but the Mushkante de Sur
• 1:47
  also, you're not even going to get paid back ever.
• 1:49
  But because the deal is you're keeping it long enough and using
• 1:52
  it long enough that it's going to be worth it.
• 1:56
  You got actually going to generate enough money from this
• 1:59
  house or this the produce from the field to get paid back your
• 2:04
  entire loan. So it's obviously it has to make
• 2:06
  sense and that's what they'll they'll make do.
• 2:10
  So we're in the middle of the Roma where it says Viyesh
• 2:15
  Matirian, Lahalvot al Sfarin. If you look at where the Shah
• 2:20
  is, the Shah or the letters of the Shah is the letter of the
• 2:24
  Shah gimel or the letter of a sorry Shah is a big chass or
• 2:31
  there's also a big gimel, and that's the Tas that's pretty
• 2:35
  much in the middle of the Rama. That's basically where we left
• 2:38
  off. OK, this is a difficult and
• 2:42
  confusing sugya, so we will hopefully learn it the best we
• 2:46
  can. And not exactly halakhala maisa,
• 2:49
  but we'll get close and then all right, Vieche matirian lahalvod
• 2:58
  al asfarian O mekomos beta Knesset relation Valium afilo
• 3:03
  villona haisa the havelet sorre mitzvah O matra.
• 3:09
  OK, let me first translate. So here we want this person is
• 3:15
  making a loan and what he asked, he wants to benefit.
• 3:22
  He's going to be using, it's not a Mashkante Desura, sorry.
• 3:27
  This is just whether it's not Kaiser or not even according to
• 3:31
  the Roma. You want this person who's
• 3:34
  lending out the Malva, who's lending out this money, He's
• 3:38
  going to get the money back, but he wants to benefit in the
• 3:41
  meantime from using the Lova's spharium or he gets to sit in
• 3:47
  his seat. The Lova has the front row seats
• 3:50
  and the bait Knesset next to the Bhima next to the rabbi.
• 3:53
  Whatever, whatever it is, he's got the best seats in town and
• 3:58
  he wants those seats. So he gets to use those seats
• 4:00
  until he gets paid back. So here the Ramaz says this
• 4:07
  matter. Now what's interesting is we did
• 4:12
  learn earlier that when it comes to Ribis Dera Banan, I'm not
• 4:18
  we're not going to relearn everything we did before.
• 4:20
  But when it comes to if the Isomium or it's a DACA fund is
• 4:26
  benefiting, that's one case where we learnt it smutter by
• 4:31
  Avak Ribis ribis Darabana. We learned you're allowed to do
• 4:34
  it according to many or most. If it's luxora mitzvah, you want
• 4:39
  to borrow money and you're going to make a profit out of it,
• 4:43
  you're going to make ribis ribis darabana.
• 4:45
  But the whole reason is the the one is borrowing the money is to
• 4:52
  build a show or do a mitzvah with the money.
• 4:55
  So we learned it's maklokas. But we learned many say Rama
• 4:59
  says it's OK, I believe. And we learned that also by
• 5:03
  borrowing money to to pay for Shabbos.
• 5:05
  That's where it's comes up. It's maklokas.
• 5:09
  I think most say it's mutter We mentioned the Mishnabura says
• 5:12
  it's asar by Shabbos over there. Anyways, let's here it's
• 5:16
  actually a different case. Here the ribis itself is the
• 5:21
  mitzvah. Not that you're taking the loan
• 5:24
  to do a mitzvah, but you're taking the the the ribis itself.
• 5:30
  Your benefit is a mitzvah. So here it's from the Rishonian,
• 5:37
  but the Rama says it's mutter whenever it's right.
• 5:41
  If it's Ribis Darabad and he holds even Bolona kaisa, it's
• 5:46
  Mutter. According to if there's if
• 5:50
  there's no no, the loaner Kaiser means that you're going to get
• 5:58
  paid back the full amount of the loan.
• 6:02
  OK, you're going to get paid back the full amount of the
• 6:04
  loan. And this person is benefiting
• 6:07
  from these seats or benefiting from using his svarna.
• 6:11
  So according to the Roma, that's called avacrabus and therefore
• 6:15
  he says it's Mutter. The Shokanara holds that's ribis
• 6:21
  sutsa because it's lo najaisa, there's nothing getting.
• 6:26
  You can't you can't call it skrus, you can't call it a
• 6:29
  mecher whenever it's called a business transaction or you're
• 6:33
  renting something. So then it's either a mutter or
• 6:36
  it might be an istudarabanu. But here in if there's Lo
• 6:42
  Najaisa if and then it's if you're borrowing, if you lend
• 6:46
  out $1000 and now you want to, you're going to get back your
• 6:49
  thousand, but you're also going to use that seat.
• 6:51
  There's no, you're not renting anything.
• 6:53
  You're not renting those seats. According to the Sholkhanara,
• 6:56
  it'd be a problem. You would have to, at least if
• 6:59
  you're paying 1000, if you're lending out 1000, you're going
• 7:03
  to get paid back $990.00. So it's like you're paying
• 7:07
  $10.00 for those seats and then it becomes urbisarabanam.
• 7:11
  And then it may be a month. However, for a few reasons, the
• 7:18
  Rama concludes with U mutter lobos Baribas Tsarak mitzvah and
• 7:22
  let's Sarah mitzvah. It's mutter again.
• 7:25
  This is this is not necessarily Tsarak mitzvah.
• 7:29
  This is the ribas is a mitzvah. So it's a question how far do
• 7:33
  you extend that? You will show me that let's
• 7:36
  Sarah Mitzvah is mutter. Right.
• 7:45
  So Vitto right here, the mall was benefiting with the mitzvah
• 7:48
  vitto. So the Rama says, I realized
• 7:55
  that it doesn't what I'm saying does not agree with all that
• 7:58
  we've shown him. And the Shokanarah could say
• 8:00
  it's Asur, So he says if it's been so, the Rama says it's only
• 8:07
  mature. According to him, if it's for
• 8:09
  sure avak ribis, if it's been a kaisa, you have to, you can't
• 8:13
  get back your full $1000 that you're lending.
• 8:16
  OK, no, everyone's the Rama point.
• 8:24
  This is a little bit with everybody, but it's in
• 8:26
  particular with the Rama Naisa. Just to understand why is this
• 8:31
  case also considered Darabanam and not Dar Isa or a bigger
• 8:37
  problem, One of the big coolers over here of with the Mushkanta
• 8:41
  Benakaisa is or Deloan Benakaisa is that when you get the money,
• 8:48
  sorry, when you give the loan. OK, so let me just take one step
• 8:52
  back. A normal loan where it's more
• 8:55
  problematic is when you lend the money $1000 and you get nothing
• 8:59
  in return. You have to wait a week or a
• 9:01
  month or whatever it is and now your rib is starts to accrue and
• 9:05
  then you get paid right. That's a normal case of
• 9:09
  interest. You don't pay, you don't prepaid
• 9:12
  your interest. As you go along, the interest
• 9:15
  accrues, adds up and then you pay.
• 9:18
  Here the reason why many and the Rama says meek garden, it's only
• 9:23
  derabanam. Even if you right, even if you
• 9:26
  know the terms are stipulated. So we said according to the
• 9:32
  Shulkanarak, it's probably Rivis tirutsa.
• 9:34
  But according to the Rama, why is it not because you're getting
• 9:37
  the field upfront and it's true the fruit still has to grow, but
• 9:43
  the malva is taking everything now.
• 9:46
  The lobe is never going to come and bring and bring them more
• 9:49
  fruit every month as we go along.
• 9:51
  He's not coming to pay as we go along.
• 9:53
  So therefore that's why it's only there about, OK, We call
• 9:59
  zella Mariella keshaya samashkanos al Hamalva Ala
• 10:04
  Keshalova code. OK, so when did in general, when
• 10:09
  do we say that that you have a hayas on the IT has to be for
• 10:19
  any of these cases of a mashkun Mashkun Dasura, of course, of
• 10:23
  course it is. But even with these other cases
• 10:26
  of a mashkun and it's maybe been kaisa, that's generally where
• 10:31
  it's smutter. So he writes about Kisha Alovic.
• 10:37
  That's only there still has to be some achrayas in the moshkon
• 10:41
  itself, because then we can look at it as a rental agreement.
• 10:49
  Remember, in order to avoid Ribis, we don't want it to be a
• 10:52
  normal loan interest relationship.
• 10:55
  We want it to be a rental agreement and that's what makes
• 10:59
  it winter. So with all these cases of a
• 11:02
  mashkun that you're going to get paid from the mashkun, you're
• 11:05
  going to deduct, you're not going to get paid in full
• 11:07
  anymore, you're not going to get your full loan.
• 11:10
  So we're therefore we're looking at at it as a rental agreement
• 11:13
  or a mechar. So it has to be that the general
• 11:18
  responsibility is on the mashkun.
• 11:20
  Avalkisha Halova kotiv lo ahriyat al Sharan Khasov.
• 11:29
  But if the LOVA, when he gives the loan, he says, listen, take
• 11:32
  the mash gun. But you know what?
• 11:34
  If anything happens to the mash gun, doesn't matter.
• 11:37
  I'm also telling you, not only is that is the mash gun that I'm
• 11:41
  giving you, you can collect from it, but I'm telling you if
• 11:44
  something happens to it, falls, burns, you know, falls apart,
• 11:48
  burns down, whatever happens, you can collect from my from
• 11:53
  other property. I have another building come
• 11:55
  collect right away. Here is the star I'm writing for
• 11:58
  you. You just have to show it to a
• 11:59
  basin and you can come collect. So then that's not a problem
• 12:04
  that that is a problem. That's a major problem.
• 12:07
  And that's us, Sir. They're also considered a a mosh
• 12:21
  gun that you're using the seats. Well, you can use the seats.
• 12:28
  Yeah, that's anyway. So yeah.
• 12:33
  Anyways, any case when any case that might be permitted, the
• 12:39
  Rama's pointing out it it can, it has to be that you could only
• 12:44
  collect or first collect from the mashkun.
• 12:49
  It can't be where you have an A star that tells you you can
• 12:51
  collect from wherever you want. I mean the shock also points
• 12:54
  this out. It doesn't mean Brahma does not
• 12:56
  mean to say you only can collect from the mashkun and the Lova is
• 13:00
  off the hook. It doesn't have to be that far.
• 13:03
  It it could be that you still have you could still collect
• 13:05
  from the lova. The Lova borrowed the money and
• 13:08
  he has to pay you back. He lent you a house to use and
• 13:11
  it fell apart and now you can't rent it out anymore.
• 13:14
  So the lobe still borrowed your money and it was just a mash gun
• 13:20
  and now you can collect. You can still collect from the
• 13:22
  Lobe, but it has to be where the the Malvet has something to
• 13:29
  lose. Can't be or he has to, otherwise
• 13:32
  it would. It's too, too close, too similar
• 13:35
  to a regular halva because a regular loan Bilova takes the
• 13:40
  money and guarantees it 100%. You're guaranteed your money
• 13:45
  back with interest. That's a normal case of
• 13:48
  interest. That's us.
• 13:50
  So therefore it has to be where there has to be some kind of a
• 13:54
  loss. Either you won't collect all of
• 13:56
  it. That's, you know, normally with
• 13:58
  the field, it might not produce anything.
• 14:01
  So there's a risk involved. Or even if you can collect your
• 14:05
  money back in full, it's still going to take time headache.
• 14:09
  It might have to cost money to go collect.
• 14:11
  That has to be the time factor also helps.
• 14:14
  It has to be where that there's some kind of a loss and then we
• 14:19
  can then we can consider this not a loan interest, but as a
• 14:24
  rental agreement. OK.
• 14:29
  Now any case that we said is mutter until now and we're
• 14:35
  talking about a mashkanta and we're talking about well any
• 14:40
  case that the mashkanta the the arrangement is avak ribis
• 14:45
  through using a mashkun, you violated avak ribis.
• 14:49
  If that's the case, whenever that is the case in Baha can't
• 14:59
  if the Lova afterwards says, you know, I just learned the
• 15:03
  halakhas. I just realized you, you did
• 15:06
  something inappropriate. You made evoc interest on me.
• 15:09
  That's evac ribis, that's ribis nirabad.
• 15:12
  He can't now go to the malva and say I want I want it back
• 15:18
  because he agreed to it. We kind of had this earlier.
• 15:21
  You're just reiterating he can't take, he can't force him to pay
• 15:25
  it back to be Evanesi anytime because Medini maminos he agreed
• 15:29
  to it and and that was the deal and it's only Avacravis the
• 15:34
  lacha is you can't take it out of his.
• 15:37
  You can't go after the Malva and take it back after the fact.
• 15:41
  So even here he used the payrolls.
• 15:45
  He the the Malva used, rented out the house or rented out the
• 15:49
  field, used the field for the payrolls.
• 15:52
  When it comes time to pay back the loan, you can't say I'm not
• 15:55
  paying you back the full $1000 that you let me.
• 15:59
  I'm going to pay you back $800 because you were, you benefited
• 16:03
  $200 in the time that went by. You can't deduct that.
• 16:09
  You've got Mashkant to have a British Samal, the Velova
• 16:12
  Villava Ale Alea. Mithila.
• 16:16
  Alea. Yeah, Mithila.
• 16:19
  He agreed to it in advance. That was their arrangement.
• 16:24
  Iluma nachimle Makovo and if you were to deduct it now have a
• 16:30
  kilo mozzina avakri Basu menu. But the that would be exactly
• 16:35
  the same as going after the guy with the yanim and pulling it
• 16:39
  out of his property. So it's true you're you want to
• 16:42
  deduct it, but deducting something that you have to pay
• 16:47
  contractually, it is the same thing as mozin avacravis, which
• 16:52
  is gesel. It's gesel.
• 16:54
  If you deduct it and don't pay it back, the.
• 16:58
  Model comes and says the Lova is refusing to pay that, so should
• 17:01
  we do? That if the Lova is refusing to
• 17:05
  pay back the money. The Lova is insisting.
• 17:10
  Look. Yeah.
• 17:12
  The isn't going to isn't going to take it out of your hand, but
• 17:14
  I'm just not. Going to pay it.
• 17:16
  So that's Gesel. Of course you can get you can go
• 17:18
  after him. Of course, that's ghazal.
• 17:22
  I believe it's, we learned that before it's ghazal, it's ghazal.
• 17:27
  It's pure ghazal at this point. So of course you you go after
• 17:31
  meal. We had this case a little more
• 17:35
  before us. If if we can look it up in case
• 17:40
  I'm wrong, but OK. That was in the beginning of
• 17:43
  echo service meal IM amarlo LO bahina tetiko OD pero cyber
• 17:49
  Rebus IM IM Akhlana Kharkov. I feel about now what's this
• 17:59
  last point where Rahman says, wait a second, the guy learned
• 18:04
  to lock us in the middle of his loan.
• 18:07
  He lent out the money he lent. He borrowed $1000.
• 18:11
  They had this whole arrangement for and the arrangement was
• 18:14
  abaakh Rebus. So we just learned that was the
• 18:18
  arrangement and it's too late. You can't.
• 18:22
  Once it's done, it's done well, sort of.
• 18:25
  Rama points out though, the the borrower, the lender can now
• 18:30
  say, wait, I learnt that what you're doing to me is avoc
• 18:33
  ribous. So from now on I'm not allowing
• 18:37
  you to take avoc ribous. It's an Esther Darabanam.
• 18:41
  So he's allowed to renege basically on his agreement going
• 18:47
  forward, going forwards, not going backwards because now that
• 18:52
  he's mocha, if the malva takes it, the malva is doing ghazal
• 18:59
  anyway. The just the shock points out
• 19:02
  besides it this whole suiga is a little bit confusing.
• 19:06
  The shock also points out in the end of your Zine that this whole
• 19:10
  halacha is a little bit of so Ian, how exactly to work with
• 19:15
  it, but he says I'm in general, I'm mossima calvera.
• 19:19
  I love araya, but I think we'll just leave that for now.
• 19:24
  Let's start to let's do bet mashkona zo.
• 19:31
  What's mashkona Mashkona de sura?
• 19:33
  That's the echo topic of the seaman.
• 19:35
  This mashkona asura imba malvila sur la scira lova vedavar katsu
• 19:41
  vashana. So what's the case?
• 19:46
  He has this mashkan dasura and he's using it.
• 19:49
  He's using it and, and when the time runs out, right, they have
• 19:55
  an agreement. Let's say for five years he gets
• 19:57
  to use it. And then at the end of five
• 19:59
  years, he doesn't get a penny back from the borrower because
• 20:03
  he benefited so much in these five years, he really got back
• 20:06
  all of his money. Plus, now he's holding on to
• 20:09
  this Mashkanta Dasura. His land, his house and now he
• 20:17
  wants to give it back to the Lova.
• 20:21
  He wants to rent it out to the Lova.
• 20:25
  Really he, he has a Kenyan. He in a sense he owns it not not
• 20:29
  forever, but he has, he has real rights.
• 20:31
  He did a proper and we, we call that a cirrus, not a halva.
• 20:36
  So now he already owns it. Now he wants to go back to the
• 20:39
  Lova and rent it out to him. So he's going to give it back to
• 20:43
  him and now the lobe is going to start paying in cash every
• 20:47
  month, you know, like a normal interest payments.
• 20:51
  Is that mutter Yesh Austria, Viesh Matiri, the makhlaikas
• 20:56
  usually the the general rule on the shakhanar, because you go
• 20:59
  off to the second opinion. If it's a Yesh Viesh Alakhaka
• 21:02
  Basra and he says it's mutter because there with the Mashkanta
• 21:06
  d'sura there was a complete, it's now it's 100% yours for
• 21:09
  these five years, then it goes back to him.
• 21:11
  So you can do whatever you want with it.
• 21:13
  So there's nothing wrong with it, OK.
• 21:16
  It certainly mean there certainly mean there is
• 21:18
  certainly nothing wrong, OK, the OK.
• 21:22
  However, the Shah just points out that's only by Mashhad
• 21:24
  disura. If it's a regular mash gun, then
• 21:28
  it's not permitted because a regular mash gun, the Malva and
• 21:33
  the Lova have a direct relationship and the Lova is
• 21:36
  completely responsible to pay back to the Malva.
• 21:39
  He just has a a Mushkun. And when he gives him back this
• 21:42
  Mushkun, he's starting to get back that he's getting paid
• 21:46
  interest. So that's that would be a
• 21:48
  problem. OK, there are the shocker
• 21:53
  continues. VM Adam Acker's certainly looks
• 21:56
  like interest. OK, VM Adam Acker, Yahoo Halova,
• 22:07
  let's solve Rahmi menu now the only time it's a real problem
• 22:11
  though, is if you are giving back this mash gun.
• 22:18
  The only time it's permitted to go to somebody else, though, the
• 22:20
  Shah points out is still it has to be a mash gun to Distura.
• 22:25
  But anyways, if you're if you are, you're giving it to
• 22:32
  somebody else. So it doesn't look like you're
• 22:34
  getting, you're not getting paid from the Lova, you're getting
• 22:36
  paid from someone else that you rented it out to.
• 22:38
  So it's certainly and you had certain rights to it.
• 22:42
  OK. That's what you're saying.
• 22:48
  Yeah. The Malva can rent it out to the
• 22:50
  lova. E Madam Akhershara Mehmalva
• 22:54
  Yakhalova. Oh yeah, and the Lova can even
• 22:58
  go to the right. See, so the Malva has this
• 23:02
  Mashkanta desura. He's allowed to rent it out to
• 23:05
  this third Jew, the Sochar. And the original Lova is even
• 23:11
  allowed to go to back, not to the malva, but can go back to
• 23:14
  that third Jew and rent it out from him.
• 23:16
  And it's OK, it's going around fine.
• 23:19
  That's that one. The shock just points out, yes,
• 23:24
  you that this, this three or this whole arrangement can't be
• 23:28
  done from the very beginning because then it's really just a
• 23:31
  way of, yeah, circumventing A technicality may only be there.
• 23:38
  But anyway, fine, maybe we'll stop here.