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From Darkness to Empowerment: Overcoming Abuse · Create The Best Me

0:00
Carmen Hecox: Well, hello there fearless midlife trailblazers.
0:03
Carmen Hecox: Welcome to Create the Best Me.
0:05
Carmen Hecox: I am Carmen Hecox, your host and personal development coach.
0:09
Carmen Hecox: Today's guest is Kathy Wisniewski.
0:12
Carmen Hecox: The topic we'll be discussing today may be sensitive for some audience, as we'll delve into the subject of abuse.
0:22
Carmen Hecox: Kathy has faced unimaginable challenges, surviving three abusive relationships, two of which were marriages, but she's not just a survivor.
0:32
Carmen Hecox: She's a beacon of hope for many.
0:35
Carmen Hecox: Through her podcast, Tragically Beautiful, Kathy provides a platform for abuse survivors to share their stories, turning their tragedies into a tale of strength and resilience.
0:49
Carmen Hecox: Today, we'll explore Kathy's journey and the incredible work she is doing to uplift and empower survivors everywhere.
0:59
Carmen Hecox: Kathy Wisniewski, welcome to Create the Best Me.
1:05
Kathy Wisniewski: Thank you so much, I'm excited to be here and to share a few pieces of my story with you.
1:11
Carmen Hecox: Great Kathy you have a podcast called Tragically Beautiful.
1:17
Carmen Hecox: Tell us a little bit about yourself and your show.
1:21
Kathy Wisniewski: Sure.
1:22
Kathy Wisniewski: So, my podcast is definitely a result of my own experiences and things that I've been through.
1:28
Kathy Wisniewski: And, unfortunately those experiences were not all very good.
1:32
Kathy Wisniewski: I, experienced a series of abusive relationships, different kinds of abuse.
1:38
Kathy Wisniewski: There was emotional abuse, mental abuse.
1:41
Kathy Wisniewski: There was even spiritual abuse in there and one instance of physical abuse as well.
1:46
Kathy Wisniewski: And kind of throughout this process of healing, I knew that I wanted to be able to share my story and that came at a very distinct moment in my most recent abusive relationship.
2:00
Kathy Wisniewski: It just hit me in a very distinct moment and I knew that this was my mission.
2:05
Kathy Wisniewski: This was my purpose now in life was to help other people who are going through abusive relationships or who are just out of abusive relationships to be able to find the healing that they need.
2:18
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was inspired by a performer that I followed, on tv and also her solo work.
2:25
Kathy Wisniewski: Her name is Jessica Willis Fisher.
2:27
Kathy Wisniewski: And, she's used to be part of the band called the Willis Clan.
2:31
Kathy Wisniewski: And it was a group of siblings, 12 siblings, all very talented.
2:35
Kathy Wisniewski: And then they, kind of got some notoriety on America's Got Talent and they made it to, I believe, the semifinals.
2:43
Kathy Wisniewski: They didn't win the whole thing, but I think they made it really, really far.
2:46
Kathy Wisniewski: And then they were on tour and all of a sudden, Jessica kind of disappeared from the family and there were some rumblings about what had been going on, but, I just loved watching the family.
2:57
Kathy Wisniewski: And, uh, anyway, fast forward that story.
2:59
Kathy Wisniewski: She had suffered some abuse of her own at the hands of her father and she has started a solo career, writing and singing.
3:07
Kathy Wisniewski: And, her most recent album came out in April of 2022.
3:12
Kathy Wisniewski: And this album is almost completely about the abuse that she endured and what she went through, during those times.
3:20
Kathy Wisniewski: And she also then subsequently put a book out called Unspeakable.
3:25
Kathy Wisniewski: And I listened to that audio book on a long road trip one day, and I found myself just kind of like hearing these stories that were so tragic.
3:35
Kathy Wisniewski: The things that she experienced and that's how up until that point was all just kind of you thought that you knew what happened, but you weren't sure and that nothing was ever really said about it.
3:45
Kathy Wisniewski: So she reveals her story.
3:47
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, I remember finding myself while I was listening to this book, constantly thinking, but where are you now?
3:54
Kathy Wisniewski: I can't wait to get to that part.
3:55
Kathy Wisniewski: I want to know where you are now and how your life has changed.
3:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And obviously I can see how your life has changed.
4:00
Kathy Wisniewski: You're doing music again.
4:01
Kathy Wisniewski: You wrote the book and everything, but that those are the stories I really want to hear.
4:05
Kathy Wisniewski: And so.
4:06
Kathy Wisniewski: I kind of put all of that together and I thought, how do I express this?
4:10
Kathy Wisniewski: How do I help other people?
4:12
Kathy Wisniewski: And, uh, my best friend had come out to visit me around Christmas time last year.
4:17
Kathy Wisniewski: It was a little earlier in December.
4:19
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was telling her like, I just, I need to use this.
4:22
Kathy Wisniewski: I need to do something.
4:23
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm not sure what it is, but like all of this is kind of coming together, but it's still very enigmas to me.
4:29
Kathy Wisniewski: Um, and I was also in the same weekend she was here.
4:33
Kathy Wisniewski: I was telling her about the podcasts that I produce for my full time job.
4:37
Kathy Wisniewski: I work for a nonprofit and I've done a podcast for them since March of 2021.
4:42
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was telling her, it's kind of separate conversation.
4:44
Kathy Wisniewski: I was just like, oh, I just love doing this.
4:46
Kathy Wisniewski: I love it.
4:47
Kathy Wisniewski: I love it, podcasting gives me life.
4:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And, she was the one that kind of connected those dots for me and said, you have all of this that you want to share.
4:53
Kathy Wisniewski: You love podcasting.
4:55
Kathy Wisniewski: Put them together.
4:56
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was like, that's brilliant.
4:59
Kathy Wisniewski: And so that's where the podcast came from.
5:01
Kathy Wisniewski: And basically the whole premise of the podcast is to use the tragedy more as a vehicle.
5:07
Kathy Wisniewski: The tragedy is not what we focus on.
5:09
Kathy Wisniewski: I give my guests the opportunity to talk about some of the details of their stories, but we focus more on the beautiful and what did they learn throughout this process?
5:18
Kathy Wisniewski: How did they take that and turn it into something beautiful?
5:21
Kathy Wisniewski: What does their life look like now?
5:22
Kathy Wisniewski: How are their relationships different?
5:24
Kathy Wisniewski: All of these kinds of things.
5:25
Kathy Wisniewski: So that's kind of where it came from.
5:28
Carmen Hecox: That's where you got your voice.
5:30
Kathy Wisniewski: Yes.
5:30
Kathy Wisniewski: Yep.
5:31
Carmen Hecox: So, can you share a bit about your early life upbringing and do you think that it played a role into the relationships that you entered?
5:42
Kathy Wisniewski: Yes, absolutely.
5:44
Kathy Wisniewski: They did.
5:44
Kathy Wisniewski: It did.
5:45
Kathy Wisniewski: So growing up, I grew up in New Jersey.
5:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I had a fantastic childhood.
5:50
Kathy Wisniewski: You know, the childhoods that don't exist anymore, where you're outside until the streetlights come on, your mom has to call you back in.
5:57
Kathy Wisniewski: That was the kind of childhood I had and it was fantastic.
6:00
Kathy Wisniewski: And I lived in a very small town, it was one square mile and our high school was very, very small.
6:06
Kathy Wisniewski: Well, the next town over from us was very large town, but the town beyond that was smaller than mine.
6:12
Kathy Wisniewski: And so typically what would have happened is that those kids would have gone to the bigger town to go to high school.
6:18
Kathy Wisniewski: But since that school was so filled up, they actually came to our school.
6:22
Kathy Wisniewski: So in ninth grade of every year, there was this influx of new kids coming into the high school.
6:26
Kathy Wisniewski: And so that's where I met the person that I refer to as my high school sweetheart.
6:32
Kathy Wisniewski: And, we were together for about 10 months in high school.
6:35
Kathy Wisniewski: We just clicked right away.
6:37
Kathy Wisniewski: And this was just someone that, I just held in such high regard.
6:41
Kathy Wisniewski: He was just a really standup kind of boy at that point.
6:44
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was in love as much as you could be at 14 years old.
6:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, you know, we dated for about 10 months or so.
6:51
Kathy Wisniewski: And then we broke up and I started seeing someone else.
6:53
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, high school, we had graduation and then he and I kind of lost touch.
6:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was still with this other guy.
7:01
Kathy Wisniewski: And then when we broke up, which that wasn't one of my abusive relationships, when we broke up, I reached back out to my high school sweetheart.
7:08
Kathy Wisniewski: And now we're in our mid twenties.
7:11
Kathy Wisniewski: And, we got back together.
7:13
Kathy Wisniewski: We actually went out to dinner that night together.
7:15
Kathy Wisniewski: And, then we were together for about two and a half years after that.
7:19
Kathy Wisniewski: And we had talked about getting married.
7:20
Kathy Wisniewski: We were now about 26 or so years old and talked about getting married and, then kind of out of the blue, he dumped me.
7:29
Kathy Wisniewski: There was no real reason.
7:31
Kathy Wisniewski: He said, I love you.
7:33
Kathy Wisniewski: I've always loved you.
7:34
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm always going to love you.
7:35
Kathy Wisniewski: I just don't think that this is right in where we should be right now.
7:39
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was devastated.
7:41
Kathy Wisniewski: So after that, obviously we weren't in contact anymore.
7:44
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, I met someone else and then, we started seeing each other, and ended up getting married at 28 years old.
7:51
Kathy Wisniewski: I remember thinking to myself, I'm old now.
7:53
Kathy Wisniewski: I want to have children.
7:54
Kathy Wisniewski: I want to have a family and I'm old and, I don't know.
7:57
Kathy Wisniewski: I, I felt like there was nobody in the world that could ever be better than second best.
8:03
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I settled and this person, was, I think we made great friends.
8:08
Kathy Wisniewski: We were not great spouses and there was a little bit of abuse there too.
8:12
Kathy Wisniewski: And, then 10 years down the line, we had been married and we were in the process of a divorce and my high school sweetheart comes back around and, tells me that he's in the process of a divorce too.
8:24
Kathy Wisniewski: So we ended up getting back together for the third time in our mid thirties.
8:28
Kathy Wisniewski: And, then ended up getting married and we were married for ten years before I left, twelve years before everything was was finally complete and over with.
8:37
Kathy Wisniewski: But, I definitely think that he was the common thread throughout my life that just caused me to make some bad decisions.
8:45
Kathy Wisniewski: It changed my mindset.
8:47
Kathy Wisniewski: Like I said, no one could ever be better than second best to me.
8:50
Kathy Wisniewski: So I settled throughout my life.
8:52
Kathy Wisniewski: And because of that, I think I don't want to say that, any of the abuse I experienced was my fault because everybody's responsible for their own actions.
9:01
Kathy Wisniewski: But I do think that I put myself in these positions by not having standards and boundaries, which is one of the main things that I learned throughout all of this.
9:11
Carmen Hecox: What were the early signs of your first two relationships that indicated some form of abuse that you now see, but you didn't see back then?
9:20
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah, so, it's interesting because when I talk about my abuse, I actually kind of, pool the three of them together for a couple of reasons.
9:28
Kathy Wisniewski: One of them being, I don't want to incriminate anybody.
9:31
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm not interested in, making anybody feel bad or somebody, that knows the two of us.
9:35
Kathy Wisniewski: That's like, I heard Kathy said this.
9:37
Kathy Wisniewski: So I kind of pull them together and I always just refer to them as him.
9:41
Kathy Wisniewski: And, so although they're three separate experiences to me, I just talk about them as one.
9:47
Kathy Wisniewski: And, he'll have a name when the book comes out.
9:50
Kathy Wisniewski: Not, a name that any of them actually has, but he will have a name in the book that comes out.
9:54
Kathy Wisniewski: But, with the first one, he was in the military and there were times that he just started not coming home and I would literally sit up, at the kitchen table all night long, just wondering if he was alive, if he was okay and all of this.
10:09
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, five o'clock in the morning, he would come strolling in like nothing happened.
10:13
Kathy Wisniewski: And I, It's like what, you know, and of course you never wanted to say anything and just like, oh, I was out with my platoon buddies or this or that.
10:21
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I mean, that obviously is a sign right there that something is going on.
10:25
Kathy Wisniewski: But, there was also, the person starts, pulling away.
10:29
Kathy Wisniewski: They start not wanting to talk anymore.
10:31
Kathy Wisniewski: They start to not like it when you talk.
10:34
Kathy Wisniewski: And it could be about anything.
10:36
Kathy Wisniewski: It could be about, what does our weekend look like?
10:38
Kathy Wisniewski: And they get annoyed by that.
10:39
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, they start to blow you off when you communicate, or they'll just walk away or walk out of the room when you're trying to talk.
10:46
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that one in that relationship, that escalated to, some physical abuse.
10:51
Kathy Wisniewski: It was just one instance.
10:53
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that was when I knew this is, done.
10:55
Kathy Wisniewski: I will not accept this.
10:57
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I kind of hung on to that relationship until I could get into a better place.
11:01
Kathy Wisniewski: Um, I was very far away from home and, waited until I got back closer to home where, I could make this all happen and know that I had a support system and I had safety and all of those things.
11:12
Kathy Wisniewski: So, those were some of the, red flags that I saw there.
11:14
Kathy Wisniewski: And of course it did turn out that he was cheating and all of that, which was obvious from the beginning.
11:20
Kathy Wisniewski: But, yeah, those are some of the red flags.
11:21
Kathy Wisniewski: When you're in a, a a relationship with a significant other, that's supposed to be the person that loves you unconditionally, that supports you, that wants the best for you, that, takes the safety of your emotional health and your heart seriously.
11:35
Kathy Wisniewski: And so if that person is not paying attention to those things and is not guarding those things, that's a huge red flag.
11:43
Carmen Hecox: How did your marriage begin and what were the early signs of abuse?
11:48
Kathy Wisniewski: So, my marriage with my high school sweetheart, actually, when it started the first, I would say the first three years of our marriage were amazing.
11:56
Kathy Wisniewski: I loved every minute of it.
11:57
Kathy Wisniewski: We had such good times.
11:59
Kathy Wisniewski: We laughed together every day.
12:01
Kathy Wisniewski: We were just, really, really compatible in a lot of different ways and practically every way.
12:06
Kathy Wisniewski: And to me, it was like confirmation of all of the real estate I let him take up in my head all of these years.
12:12
Kathy Wisniewski: Because even when we weren't together, I was always thinking of him and hoping he was okay and hoping he was happy and all of that.
12:19
Kathy Wisniewski: So this was like confirmation of, at the time of what I thought I knew all along that we belong together, like this is my soulmate.
12:26
Kathy Wisniewski: And so those first three years were fantastic.
12:30
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, it just started kind of the same way where he would just pull away and isolate.
12:34
Kathy Wisniewski: He would, come home from work and just kind of either want to stay out in the garage working on a car all night or just be on the computer.
12:41
Kathy Wisniewski: Friday nights were our date night and we didn't have a lot of money.
12:44
Kathy Wisniewski: So our date night was like, doing our grocery shopping and, going to need a cup of coffee and just simple things like that.
12:50
Kathy Wisniewski: And he started to, well, why don't you go without me tonight?
12:53
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm tired.
12:53
Kathy Wisniewski: And, or, I'm going to go hang out with my buddy tonight and those kinds of things.
12:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And that, being I was with the fact that I was with my person, the person that I truly believed was my soulmate, these things were even more hurtful.
13:07
Kathy Wisniewski: And it was like, when I tried to explain that to him and tried to express my feelings to him, he just wasn't open to it at all.
13:15
Kathy Wisniewski: I was just being ridiculous.
13:17
Kathy Wisniewski: I was being emotional.
13:18
Kathy Wisniewski: I was being a girl, those kinds of things.
13:21
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I just believed that this was just something he was going through and it was going to get better.
13:25
Kathy Wisniewski: He does have some childhood trauma that I knew about.
13:28
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm one of, I think the fewest few people in the world that knows about it because I've known him almost all of his life.
13:34
Kathy Wisniewski: And I knew even back at a young age of 14, I knew that if he didn't deal with this at some point in his life, it was going to come back to bite him.
13:41
Kathy Wisniewski: And I thought when we got back together this third time, I thought that he had dealt with it because he was so charming and so just loving.
13:49
Kathy Wisniewski: And, there's a lot of the love bombing and, just saying all the right things.
13:54
Kathy Wisniewski: So, it was especially hurtful when he all of a sudden didn't care about what I had to say.
13:59
Kathy Wisniewski: And then it escalated to a point as the years went on where he would twist my words.
14:05
Kathy Wisniewski: And he would start to say things to me like, everybody knows that you have a terrible memory so it did not happen the way you're saying it happened.
14:14
Kathy Wisniewski: Like that never happened at all.
14:16
Kathy Wisniewski: And it was like, I am not crazy.
14:18
Kathy Wisniewski: Like I remember exactly this moment or whatever.
14:22
Kathy Wisniewski: I remember this situation.
14:23
Kathy Wisniewski: I didn't really know what that was.
14:25
Kathy Wisniewski: I didn't know the term gaslighting at that time in my life.
14:28
Kathy Wisniewski: And, but just, I just knew that that was very hurtful.
14:31
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was like, where is this coming from?
14:32
Kathy Wisniewski: And so in my mind, I was like, okay, this is, he hadn't dealt with his childhood trauma.
14:38
Kathy Wisniewski: This is now coming up and that's what this is.
14:40
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I kind of determined that I was going to be there for him no matter what I was going to help him through this, no matter how difficult it was, because this was just someone that I loved so completely.
14:50
Kathy Wisniewski: And then he would latch on to single words sometimes.
14:55
Kathy Wisniewski: And, get very upset about them.
14:56
Kathy Wisniewski: Like if, for example, I, at one point said like, I just, I want to spend time with you.
15:00
Kathy Wisniewski: Like we never spend time together.
15:02
Kathy Wisniewski: And he latched on to never, he was like, never, we never spend time together.
15:07
Kathy Wisniewski: We're not together right now.
15:08
Kathy Wisniewski: And it was like, no, no, we're not, we're fighting right now over something I don't even understand.
15:14
Kathy Wisniewski: So there was that too.
15:16
Kathy Wisniewski: And then it went down the road of him not coming home or, the lies and the deceit.
15:21
Kathy Wisniewski: And, then it was, a few years later after, here I am still trying to work on this, fix this, doing anything I could to try and please him and everything else.
15:31
Kathy Wisniewski: And, a few years later it came out that he had been cheating.
15:34
Kathy Wisniewski: And, he had been cheating with this girl that he had met at his church.
15:39
Kathy Wisniewski: And it had been going on for about four years at that point.
15:43
Kathy Wisniewski: And I had a lot of people say to me If something like this is going on for four years, how could you not know?
15:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And I tell them this man was home every night.
15:51
Kathy Wisniewski: He was home.
15:51
Kathy Wisniewski: He was in the garage.
15:52
Kathy Wisniewski: He was in, on his computer, but he was home.
15:55
Kathy Wisniewski: The only time he wasn't home was when he went to his church that he insisted he wanted to maintain going to.
16:01
Kathy Wisniewski: He used to live further up in the state and it was, close for him then and had moved down to the southern part of the state.
16:06
Kathy Wisniewski: Now it was a two hour drive, but he maintained that, this was where his friends were and he loved the men's group there and everything else.
16:14
Kathy Wisniewski: And so, service was on Saturday night.
16:16
Kathy Wisniewski: So he would leave at 12 or one o'clock on a Saturday afternoon, he managed the soundboard.
16:21
Kathy Wisniewski: It was, the church was set up in a school, so they had to set up and tear down every week.
16:25
Kathy Wisniewski: So he would go early to set up and then he would run the soundboard for the service, and then he had to tear everything down.
16:31
Kathy Wisniewski: In the beginning, he wouldn't get home till, midnight, one o'clock after a two hour drive both ways and all of that.
16:36
Kathy Wisniewski: And then it started, turning into, well, some of the guys want to go shooting tomorrow, so I'm going to stay overnight in my friend's trailer and all of this.
16:44
Kathy Wisniewski: And then, it just was revealed that they were all lies, all lies.
16:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And he had been seeing this girl and he would, I, why she didn't, it never occurred to her, like, this is weird that I'm only seeing him one day of the week is beyond me.
16:56
Kathy Wisniewski: But, she was very young, and very impressionable, had very low self esteem, and here is this really good looking, older male paying her attention, and she just fell for it, much like I did.
17:08
Carmen Hecox: Why didn't you go to church with him?
17:10
Kathy Wisniewski: I, in the beginning, I wanted to go, but I was already driving an hour each way to go to work.
17:16
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I was already spending 10 hours a week in the car.
17:20
Kathy Wisniewski: And so in the very beginning of our relationship, and I would say, if I look back on everything and there's one thing I regret, this would be it.
17:27
Kathy Wisniewski: He had invited me to go in the beginning and I was like, I'm already in the car 10 hours a week.
17:31
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't want to be in the car another four hours on the weekend and everything else.
17:34
Kathy Wisniewski: And so, I didn't go.
17:36
Kathy Wisniewski: I didn't go with him.
17:37
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that would be my one regret.
17:39
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't think it would have changed much, but that would be my biggest regret.
17:43
Kathy Wisniewski: And then as time went on and I started to see the problems, then I started to say to him, I'm going to go to church with you this weekend.
17:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And he would be like, this is my men's group.
17:50
Kathy Wisniewski: This is where, I get to plug in, like, I don't want you to go and all of that.
17:55
Carmen Hecox: You said that this was your high school sweetheart.
17:57
Carmen Hecox: This was your first love and, you had known him since you were young and you knew a lot about his upbringing.
18:05
Carmen Hecox: Do you think that, because I know that we as women were fixers, do you think that maybe when you first fell in love with him do you think that maybe you saw yourself as a hero and maybe this is a broken person and with my love and my support, my healthy upbringing, I can fix him.
18:25
Kathy Wisniewski: I think it definitely played a role in it.
18:27
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't think that was the first thing.
18:28
Kathy Wisniewski: Cause obviously I didn't know about everything at first when I first met him and we were already, building a friendship and everything else.
18:34
Kathy Wisniewski: But once I learned about that, I think that was definitely an element.
18:38
Kathy Wisniewski: And of course that played through to our marriage where I was like, I'm going to love him enough to make him come around and you know, it's like, I think of myself as someone who is a really good partner.
18:49
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I thought that, if I can just be there for him and support him and, just, try to encourage him that things would change.
18:58
Carmen Hecox: What were the moments you went through during the marriage that made you just say, this is not worth it, I'm leaving?
19:04
Carmen Hecox: Did you have those moments like pop in your head, but then there was something that kept you there when you should have left earlier?
19:12
Kathy Wisniewski: I would say that there was never a time that I wanted to leave him prior to finding out about the affair.
19:19
Kathy Wisniewski: And that's because, I have Christian beliefs.
19:22
Kathy Wisniewski: I believe that, you know, marriage is supposed to be for life and there's really only one provision for divorce, and that is cheating and adultery.
19:30
Kathy Wisniewski: And so up until that point, I was like, okay, like this is, I'm just going to dig in because I'm not leaving him because this is what I believe that marriage is sacred and it should be honored.
19:41
Kathy Wisniewski: And, even taking out that, spiritual peace I'm a person that likes to see my commitments through.
19:47
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I had a personal responsibility to myself in a way too that I wanted to, you know, I dedicated myself to this and I'm going to see it through.
19:56
Kathy Wisniewski: But.
19:57
Kathy Wisniewski: once the word came out about the affair, I did actually try for about a year because I thought, okay, this is all wrapped up in his childhood trauma.
20:05
Kathy Wisniewski: So for about a year, I tried to still mend things and say, okay, let's work through this.
20:11
Kathy Wisniewski: Let's go to counseling.
20:12
Kathy Wisniewski: Let's get you the help that you need.
20:14
Kathy Wisniewski: And, he just didn't want any part of it.
20:17
Kathy Wisniewski: He just, I believe that this is just my own belief.
20:22
Kathy Wisniewski: I believe that more than anything, he wanted children.
20:26
Kathy Wisniewski: And, when that wasn't happening for us, I think that was part of, I mean, I think it's multifaceted, but I think that was part of what made him seek out a younger woman.
20:35
Carmen Hecox: But even though the fact that he wanted children, he still had an issue he needed to address and that was respecting you.
20:43
Kathy Wisniewski: Mm hmm.
20:43
Carmen Hecox: Because then children would have come into an unhealthy environment.
20:48
Kathy Wisniewski: Right, right, yeah, that was definitely a big, a big issue he just, had no respect for me as a person.
20:55
Kathy Wisniewski: And like I said, in the beginning, there was all of the charm and all the love bombing and all of the, the protection and all of that.
21:01
Kathy Wisniewski: And, looking back on it now, I don't think any of that was real.
21:04
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't think that he's capable of it, honestly, because of everything that he's been through until he deals with it.
21:10
Kathy Wisniewski: And then maybe not even then, I don't know.
21:12
Carmen Hecox: What steps did you take toward healing after leaving from an abusive marriage?
21:18
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah, this is where, this is where my story turned to beautiful and, taking the tragedy and turning it around.
21:25
Kathy Wisniewski: There was one evening when I was at the house and I was in my office and I was in a puddle on the floor, just sobbing.
21:33
Kathy Wisniewski: And this was, I don't, I honestly don't even remember how long after I found out, maybe a month or two.
21:40
Kathy Wisniewski: And he came to the doorway of my office and he said, what are you crying about?
21:46
Kathy Wisniewski: And I said, what am I crying about?
21:47
Kathy Wisniewski: And he's like, are you still crying over this?
21:49
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was like, I'm leaving.
21:51
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm leaving.
21:51
Kathy Wisniewski: But, I was just like, it's just not what a marriage is supposed to be.
21:55
Kathy Wisniewski: And obviously, the cheating did that as well.
21:58
Kathy Wisniewski: But, I just remember laying there sobbing after this experience with him and being so let down and feeling so betrayed.
22:06
Kathy Wisniewski: And, you know, when you kind of put all of your stock in something and then the rug is ripped out from under you.
22:12
Kathy Wisniewski: It's just, you just don't know which way to turn.
22:15
Kathy Wisniewski: And I remember talking to close friends at that time and just constantly saying like, I can't even breathe right now.
22:23
Kathy Wisniewski: And all I want to do is just take the next right step.
22:26
Kathy Wisniewski: Just, just one, just one.
22:28
Kathy Wisniewski: I can't see what's up ahead, but I can see the next step.
22:31
Kathy Wisniewski: And, as I was laying there on the floor that night, I remember thinking to myself, I could curl up in a ball and sit in the corner and be bitter for the rest of my life.
22:40
Kathy Wisniewski: And probably no one would blame me because this is terrible what he's done.
22:44
Kathy Wisniewski: Or I can use this and I can make my life better because obviously we're going down a road where we're not going to be together anymore.
22:50
Kathy Wisniewski: So what kind of life do I want to live?
22:52
Kathy Wisniewski: And I decided that, I was going to use this to make me better.
22:56
Kathy Wisniewski: And at that time, I also went over to, I had a wonderful, beautiful mentor, an older woman who I just adored and loved and trusted completely.
23:06
Kathy Wisniewski: And I remember sitting at her kitchen table one night and I was crying about all this.
23:10
Kathy Wisniewski: And she said, I'm going to say something and you're not going to like it.
23:14
Kathy Wisniewski: She said, but it's not for now.
23:15
Kathy Wisniewski: I want you to tuck it away and I want you to bring it out when you're ready.
23:19
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was like, okay.
23:21
Kathy Wisniewski: And she said, you've been in several abusive relationships now.
23:24
Kathy Wisniewski: You've been in several relationships where you've been cheated on and you are the common denominator.
23:29
Kathy Wisniewski: And you need to figure out why that is.
23:31
Kathy Wisniewski: So like I said, tuck it away.
23:32
Kathy Wisniewski: It's not for now.
23:33
Kathy Wisniewski: And I know it sounds terrible.
23:35
Kathy Wisniewski: And of course my first reaction was, why would you say something like that to me right now?
23:39
Kathy Wisniewski: But I trusted her so implicitly that I did.
23:42
Kathy Wisniewski: I tucked that away and I thought, you know, all right, at some point I'm going to come back to this, but it's not for now.
23:47
Kathy Wisniewski: So I ended up moving out of the house and I moved in with a woman that I hadn't met before.
23:52
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that was a difficult situation.
23:54
Kathy Wisniewski: It was a very difficult situation.
23:56
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I felt like what I needed something to distract me from everything that was going on.
24:03
Kathy Wisniewski: And so it was at that point that it felt like the stars aligned in a lot of different directions, for me to attend the health coach training program that, IIN, has.
24:13
Kathy Wisniewski: I had known other people, my new boss was, had gone through the program and, it had kept coming up on my feed and all these things.
24:19
Kathy Wisniewski: I kept thinking about it.
24:21
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was like, this is the perfect time.
24:22
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm going to put myself through this program.
24:24
Kathy Wisniewski: And so that's what I did while I was living with this woman.
24:27
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that was the thing that kept me sain that, and we worked opposite shifts.
24:30
Kathy Wisniewski: So she was not home at night, which, was a good thing.
24:33
Kathy Wisniewski: Um, So I went through the training program and that was where I learned about the different facets of health.
24:41
Kathy Wisniewski: And I'm very type A, I'm very all or nothing.
24:45
Kathy Wisniewski: And, to me it was like, I have to heal all of me or why even bother?
24:49
Kathy Wisniewski: And it was through this program that I learned that there are different pillars of health.
24:53
Kathy Wisniewski: There is your physical health; yes, there's your emotional health, your mental health, your spiritual health.
24:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And all of these different, pillars that are in their career and, your social life and, hobbies, all of these things are involved in there.
25:05
Kathy Wisniewski: And so going through that program, I realized that I don't have to do everything at once.
25:09
Kathy Wisniewski: And what is most important right now?
25:11
Kathy Wisniewski: And that was my mental and emotional health.
25:13
Kathy Wisniewski: Because I was just in such a dark place, a darker place than I had ever been in my life.
25:19
Kathy Wisniewski: And so that was what I decided to focus on.
25:21
Kathy Wisniewski: And eventually I moved out of living with this woman.
25:24
Kathy Wisniewski: I was living there for about eight months.
25:27
Kathy Wisniewski: And then I moved out, I bought a condo in another state and I moved out to where I am now.
25:32
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I just spent the next, honestly, it was about three years.
25:36
Kathy Wisniewski: Of course, the whole divorce process I was going through that at the same time and he was fighting me on every aspect.
25:41
Kathy Wisniewski: But I took that time and I said, I don't want to really do anything as far, I'm not looking to date anybody.
25:47
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm not there.
25:49
Kathy Wisniewski: I won't be there for a while.
25:50
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't want to do a lot of extracurricular activities.
25:52
Kathy Wisniewski: I just want to take the time for me and that's okay.
25:55
Kathy Wisniewski: And that was something that prior to this was not ever a part of my life.
26:00
Kathy Wisniewski: It was not ever something I thought about that I was worthy of taking time for myself.
26:05
Kathy Wisniewski: I was worthy of self-care and healing.
26:08
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was worthy, most importantly, that carries me through today, that I was worthy of the standards and boundaries that I needed to put in place for myself in order to keep myself happy and healthy and to have a thriving life.
26:21
Carmen Hecox: So were there any, other than this coaching program that you went through, were there any books or support groups that helped you during your journey?
26:29
Kathy Wisniewski: I had a wonderful group of women through my church that we were really good friends and, they helped me a ton.
26:36
Kathy Wisniewski: And there were a few podcasts.
26:39
Kathy Wisniewski: That's when I found Jasmine Starr and a lot of her stuff, she's talking about business, but it can be applied to life as well.
26:44
Kathy Wisniewski: And, hearing a lot of her things really, really helped me.
26:47
Kathy Wisniewski: Lewis Howes as well, The School of Greatness.
26:49
Kathy Wisniewski: He talks a lot about this kind of thing about, finding your happiness and finding your greatness.
26:54
Kathy Wisniewski: And, it was kind of through all of these things together.
26:57
Kathy Wisniewski: And for me, I'm not saying that this is for everyone, but for me, isolating just a little bit was what I needed.
27:03
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm an extreme introvert.
27:05
Kathy Wisniewski: And so kind of pulling away and, not interacting a whole lot.
27:09
Kathy Wisniewski: I didn't completely hermitize my life.
27:12
Kathy Wisniewski: But, I, I did pull away a bit that was helpful for me and also, therapy.
27:16
Kathy Wisniewski: I had never gone to therapy in my entire life.
27:19
Kathy Wisniewski: And I started when all of this started happening and that was so helpful to help me kind of change the narrative in my own mind and the story I was telling myself.
27:29
Kathy Wisniewski: And, she was the one, my therapist who introduced me to, what a narcissist is.
27:34
Kathy Wisniewski: I had heard the word but, didn't really know what it was and she explained that to me and walked me through that process and, that was super helpful for my healing.
27:43
Carmen Hecox: So for some of the women listening or that are in the audience right now and are listening to what you're saying, how can they find a healthy support system?
27:54
Carmen Hecox: Because I know that another thing that is real important, I always think about and I always tell my children, is don't overshare.
28:00
Kathy Wisniewski: Mm hmm.
28:01
Kathy Wisniewski: So important.
28:02
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah, when I was going through this whole thing.
28:05
Kathy Wisniewski: I kept my circle very, very small.
28:07
Kathy Wisniewski: That's not to say that other people that you know, aren't your friends, but there are people that are closer to you that, you know, you can trust.
28:13
Kathy Wisniewski: And that was, I had a group of about five people that knew what was going on.
28:18
Kathy Wisniewski: And I kept it at that until I knew I was at a point in my life and in my healing where I could share more broadly.
28:24
Kathy Wisniewski: But, for me, it was this group of women from church was, the primary group that I shared with.
28:31
Kathy Wisniewski: And I think if I didn't have them, I had a couple of close friends, from over the years that I would have relied on as well.
28:39
Kathy Wisniewski: But, having that spiritual background I think this group of women from church really helped me to kind of frame everything in a way that was, that really made sense to me and was healthy for me.
28:49
Kathy Wisniewski: And they were there for me, no matter what I needed.
28:52
Kathy Wisniewski: They would change plans if I was having a breakdown.
28:55
Kathy Wisniewski: Or, invite me over just so, I could spend some time with them.
28:59
Kathy Wisniewski: Of course that all ended once I moved cause I did move out of state.
29:03
Kathy Wisniewski: But, yeah, that was my primary resource of people and they were phenomenal.
29:08
Carmen Hecox: Do you think going through this coaching program helped you figure out what you could share and what you couldn't share with certain people?
29:15
Kathy Wisniewski: Um, I think it helped me frame things a little differently because, now I look at my experiences through the lens of health and how that affected my mental health and my emotional health and my physical health.
29:27
Kathy Wisniewski: Because everything is connected.
29:29
Kathy Wisniewski: Right?
29:29
Kathy Wisniewski: So, I think that helps me to frame it and it helped me to put into perspective what details are important and what is not.
29:37
Kathy Wisniewski: And so, I think I've been able to kind of draw the line there between what people need to know.
29:43
Kathy Wisniewski: And again, like I said in the beginning, I'm not out to incriminate anybody.
29:46
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm not, you know, what happened, happened.
29:48
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I don't at this point feel anything towards him.
29:51
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't hate him.
29:53
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't like him.
29:54
Kathy Wisniewski: I feel absolutely nothing towards him.
29:56
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that was kind of how I knew that I was healed.
29:59
Kathy Wisniewski: It's like I can look at the situation, I remember every detail, but I don't feel any of it.
30:03
Kathy Wisniewski: And so, in, actually the first episode of my own podcast I had my best friend kind of interview me about, why I was doing this.
30:10
Kathy Wisniewski: And I was careful to say in there that like I understand that there are two sides to every story.
30:15
Kathy Wisniewski: This is my side.
30:16
Kathy Wisniewski: This is what I experienced.
30:17
Kathy Wisniewski: If you talk to him, it's going to be completely different.
30:20
Kathy Wisniewski: It doesn't mean that he's wrong and I'm right.
30:23
Kathy Wisniewski: It just means that was his experience.
30:25
Kathy Wisniewski: And I truly believe that most of the time, I have no statistics or anything to back this up.
30:30
Kathy Wisniewski: It's just my own personal belief.
30:32
Kathy Wisniewski: Most of the time, I don't think that abusers think or know that they're actually abusing you.
30:38
Carmen Hecox: Yeah.
30:38
Carmen Hecox: Talking about statistics, I read an article or I read a blog post before we came on, and this was really shocking for me, is on average, nearly 20 people per minute are physically abused by an intimate partner in the United States during one year.
30:55
Carmen Hecox: That equates to about 10 million women or men.
30:59
Kathy Wisniewski: It's, it's incredible and that was one of the reasons too that I wanted to create this podcast.
31:04
Kathy Wisniewski: I have, what I say are four different audiences.
31:07
Kathy Wisniewski: One is, the person who's in it right now and to give them hope and encouragement that I got out, the guests that I interview have gotten out, you can get out too and you can live a beautiful life that you create.
31:17
Kathy Wisniewski: I want to, reach out to people who are just out of an abusive relationship.
31:22
Kathy Wisniewski: But maybe they're in that place where everything is still so emotionally charged and volatile.
31:27
Kathy Wisniewski: And, maybe if they hear these stories, they see, okay, this is the messy part, this is the hard part, but I'm going to get past it.
31:33
Kathy Wisniewski: And then the third person that I would love to reach out to is somebody who hasn't been in an abusive relationship so that they can see the red flags and they can, you know, maybe if they're starting to date someone and they're starting to see some of these things, maybe they can go, hmm, I'm not sure about this.
31:48
Kathy Wisniewski: Let me think it through.
31:49
Kathy Wisniewski: And they can be aware of some of the red flags before that happens to them.
31:54
Kathy Wisniewski: And then fourth, I don't know if this will ever happen, but it would be my dream if someone who has abused someone else would listen to this podcast and understand how he or she made them feel.
32:06
Kathy Wisniewski: And maybe, maybe that would just spark something in them to say hu I think I did that.
32:12
Kathy Wisniewski: and I think I need to change.
32:13
Kathy Wisniewski: That would be my dream.
32:14
Carmen Hecox: Yeah, and it would change the statistics that I just read.
32:18
Carmen Hecox: Totally change it.
32:19
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah.
32:20
Carmen Hecox: I know this may be a question that you may not be ready to answer, so please, if you're not, then let me know.
32:27
Carmen Hecox: Have you forgiven your ex husband?
32:30
Kathy Wisniewski: Have I forgiven him?
32:31
Kathy Wisniewski: I think if I'm being really honest, the answer is probably no.
32:35
Kathy Wisniewski: Um, and I think if I'm being really honest, I've probably given myself permission not to.
32:41
Kathy Wisniewski: And I don't, you know, there, you can argue if that's right or wrong, especially from a spiritual perspective, but I think that's, that's where I am.
32:48
Kathy Wisniewski: I just, I feel nothing towards him at all.
32:51
Kathy Wisniewski: I remember actually at one point talking to my therapist and telling her, because I've known him since I was 14; because I have always thought about him, whether we were together or not.
33:01
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't know who I am without him taking up space in my head.
33:05
Kathy Wisniewski: And, she said it's time that you figure that out.
33:08
Kathy Wisniewski: But now it's like, I feel like I'm free from him.
33:12
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm free from him being in my life directly.
33:15
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm free from him taking up space in my mind and yeah, I just, I feel nothing towards him.
33:21
Kathy Wisniewski: I don't he's now remarried and he has a son and, sometimes friends will ask me like, does that bother you or does that, trigger you or anything?
33:28
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm like, no, I feel nothing.
33:30
Kathy Wisniewski: Like, I just hope his kid doesn't grow up like he did, that's it.
33:33
Kathy Wisniewski: But yeah, I think if I'm being honest, the answer is probably no.
33:36
Carmen Hecox: Yeah, and you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that?
33:39
Carmen Hecox: Because my ex husband, the father of my two children, he cheated on me and to be really honest, it took me about 18 years to honestly, I mean, to where I can say wholeheartedly say, I forgave him.
33:53
Carmen Hecox: And I called him and I told him, I forgive you.
33:55
Carmen Hecox: He thought I was crazy because he was wondering why I was calling him.
33:58
Carmen Hecox: But I felt like I needed to do that.
34:01
Kathy Wisniewski: hmm.
34:01
Kathy Wisniewski: Mm
34:02
Carmen Hecox: and I'm a woman of faith.
34:03
Carmen Hecox: If I'm a woman of faith, my faith teaches me that I need to forgive.
34:07
Carmen Hecox: And I felt guilty that it took that long for me to do it, but it was because it hurt.
34:13
Carmen Hecox: And that was part of my healing journey was to get to that place.
34:17
Carmen Hecox: And maybe I'm slow.
34:18
Carmen Hecox: It took me a little bit longer to get there.
34:20
Kathy Wisniewski: Right.
34:20
Kathy Wisniewski: Right.
34:21
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah.
34:21
Kathy Wisniewski: I know this podcast isn't about faith, but to touch on that just for a second, I think that after I came through this, I had more of a struggle with my relationship with God at that point because I was like, why did you let this happen?
34:34
Kathy Wisniewski: And you know, our divorce was finalized April of 2022, but like I said, it took about three years to get to that point.
34:41
Kathy Wisniewski: And he fought me every step of the way.
34:43
Kathy Wisniewski: And it was just recently, just within the last three or four months where I was thinking about this again and praying about this again.
34:50
Kathy Wisniewski: And I felt like, I felt like God was saying, like, I see the beginning from the end.
34:56
Kathy Wisniewski: I know where this would have gone.
34:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And, you know, there's always that difference between, did God make this happen or did he allow it to happen?
35:04
Kathy Wisniewski: And it's like, it doesn't matter because what matters is that the way it happened was the most loving thing that he could have allowed to happen.
35:13
Kathy Wisniewski: Because if we had you know, like I wanted to, I was trying to patch it up and trying to get everything, back to normal.
35:18
Kathy Wisniewski: I never would have felt safe in that relationship.
35:21
Kathy Wisniewski: I never would have felt, like I would always have been suspicious if he didn't come home on time or, anything like that.
35:27
Kathy Wisniewski: And I think that, now doing all of this work on myself, I feel healthier mentally and emotionally than I've ever felt in my life.
35:34
Kathy Wisniewski: And I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.
35:36
Kathy Wisniewski: And so that is part of my beautiful as well.
35:38
Kathy Wisniewski: And just to kind of take that a step forward and bringing in the issue of putting standards and boundaries in place for myself.
35:45
Kathy Wisniewski: I did eventually start to feel like, okay, I'm ready to start dating again or whatnot.
35:50
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I met someone and I've said from the beginning, once I started, saying I'm ready to date that I'm not looking for someone who's perfect.
35:56
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm looking for someone who's perfect for me.
35:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And, that includes the flaws and everything else.
36:00
Kathy Wisniewski: And that's fine.
36:01
Kathy Wisniewski: We're, we're humans.
36:02
Kathy Wisniewski: We're allowed to be flawed.
36:03
Kathy Wisniewski: And I did actually meet someone who was just about perfect for me.
36:09
Kathy Wisniewski: And, it was interesting because as the relationship progressed, I was like, I'm just really happy single.
36:17
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm really happy being on my own right now.
36:19
Kathy Wisniewski: There are things that I want to build like my podcast and, the course that I want to build and everything else.
36:25
Kathy Wisniewski: It's like, I feel like this is my mission right now is to help other people in abusive relationships.
36:29
Kathy Wisniewski: And so I did cut that off.
36:31
Kathy Wisniewski: My friends thought I was crazy.
36:32
Kathy Wisniewski: They're like, how could you do that?
36:34
Kathy Wisniewski: But it felt like the right decision.
36:35
Kathy Wisniewski: And I, I stand by it.
36:37
Carmen Hecox: Yeah.
36:37
Carmen Hecox: Well, you have to listen to what your heart is telling you and your heart is telling you that the journey that you have been through, there's a purpose behind it.
36:46
Carmen Hecox: And your purpose is to help other people, to be the voice for those women or men that are not ready to speak up.
36:54
Carmen Hecox: And to strengthen that community.
36:57
Carmen Hecox: So that they can heal and do what you're doing.
37:00
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah, I just look at it exactly that way.
37:02
Kathy Wisniewski: If, I can help one person, then I've done my job.
37:05
Kathy Wisniewski: And, you know, the feedback that I've gotten from the podcast, people have just said the kindest things that, I didn't know I needed to hear this.
37:13
Kathy Wisniewski: I didn't realize that there were other people out there who felt the same way I did and, keep doing this or what we want to hear more and all of that.
37:20
Kathy Wisniewski: So I'm really excited to, even to hone my own interviewing skills and podcasting skills and to continue to invite guests on who are ready to share their story or those who aren't.
37:30
Kathy Wisniewski: Like I said, I don't ask them to share details.
37:32
Kathy Wisniewski: They're not comfortable sharing, but, it's been a wild ride.
37:34
Kathy Wisniewski: Like I said, I just started it in June.
37:36
Kathy Wisniewski: It's only been a couple of months, but it's been really fun to get to know my guests.
37:40
Kathy Wisniewski: And what has been the best part for me is that I always have a phone call with them before we record.
37:46
Kathy Wisniewski: And this has been just like this healing experience for all of my guests where they can finally just like, feel like they're in a safe space and just share everything.
37:56
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I never bring any of that up on the recording, but I just give them the space to share their experience.
38:01
Kathy Wisniewski: And I think them just feeling like they're being heard, feeling like they can unload a little bit.
38:06
Kathy Wisniewski: And several of them have said, I've never shared all of this with anyone before.
38:10
Kathy Wisniewski: And this is just helped me to feel so free.
38:13
Kathy Wisniewski: So that to me is where the magic is.
38:14
Kathy Wisniewski: I love bringing you the episodes, but to me, the magic is in our one on one calls.
38:19
Carmen Hecox: And I think the magic comes because they know that the person on the other side of that phone call is someone who's been there.
38:26
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah, exactly.
38:27
Kathy Wisniewski: Exactly.
38:28
Kathy Wisniewski: They know that it's safe.
38:29
Kathy Wisniewski: They know I'm not going to share any details and yeah, I'm a vault.
38:35
Carmen Hecox: How do you define healthy relationships now?
38:38
Kathy Wisniewski: Oh, that's a good one.
38:39
Kathy Wisniewski: I define it by two people, and it could be any kind of relationship, right?
38:43
Kathy Wisniewski: It could be family, employer, employee, coworker, significant other.
38:48
Kathy Wisniewski: Two people that are supporting each other and they encourage each other and want to see the other person succeed and are willing to hear that other person's point of view, whether they agree with it or not.
39:00
Kathy Wisniewski: I think that, I think that we do ourselves a disservice if we are only ever around people that agree with us.
39:06
Kathy Wisniewski: I think that you need to see other perspectives and things like that.
39:09
Kathy Wisniewski: And, some of these red flags that I mentioned earlier about someone that doesn't want to listen to you or walks away or dismisses you when you're trying to talk.
39:17
Kathy Wisniewski: That to me is not a relationship at all.
39:19
Kathy Wisniewski: That's, toxic and, is only going to lead to bad things.
39:23
Kathy Wisniewski: But, um, yeah, I think that, wanting to see the success of the other person and to respect them and to listen to them.
39:30
Kathy Wisniewski: I think that those are three things that make a really great relationship.
39:34
Carmen Hecox: And I think that what people really need to understand is that abusive relationships don't necessarily only happen in marriages.
39:41
Carmen Hecox: They don't just happen in, mother child or father child dynamics, they also happen in the workplace
39:48
Kathy Wisniewski: Mm hmm.
39:49
Carmen Hecox: Or, between neighbors and stuff.
39:52
Carmen Hecox: And so I think that we need to look a little bit more broader and become more aware of do we have any abusive relationships in any area of our life?
40:03
Kathy Wisniewski: Right.
40:04
Kathy Wisniewski: Yeah, definitely.
40:05
Kathy Wisniewski: I talked to one woman who hopefully will be a guest on the podcast at one point and she talks about, the abuse of her employer and how her employer wanted her to do things and would like constantly hold her employment over her head and they were things that she didn't agree with and all this.
40:20
Kathy Wisniewski: So it definitely happens there.
40:21
Kathy Wisniewski: I've had my fair share of abusive employers.
40:24
Kathy Wisniewski: Employers that I would consider to be abusive.
40:26
Kathy Wisniewski: Not now, not now.
40:27
Kathy Wisniewski: I love my employer and my boss right now is fantastic.
40:30
Kathy Wisniewski: Um, but yeah, I think that when we think of abuse too, the type of abuse is something that we kind of, our minds automatically go to physical or sexual.
40:40
Kathy Wisniewski: And I look at that as kind of a layered thing.
40:42
Kathy Wisniewski: It's like the physical and the sexual is kind of on the outside.
40:46
Kathy Wisniewski: It's what you can see and feel physically but then it goes, a layer deeper.
40:51
Kathy Wisniewski: And none of this is to say that any one form of abuse is worse than another.
40:55
Kathy Wisniewski: I think that they're all terrible and wrong.
40:58
Kathy Wisniewski: But if you go a layer deeper, then you get into the mental and the emotional abuse and those scars that take a lot longer to heal.
41:04
Kathy Wisniewski: And then one step deeper from that is the spiritual abuse.
41:07
Kathy Wisniewski: And the first guest I had on my podcast talks about the spiritual abuse.
41:11
Kathy Wisniewski: And it's interesting with that kind, because when you are now, abusing someone's very core values and the things that are at the center of what they believe and, taking advantage of that and abusing that.
41:23
Kathy Wisniewski: That's a kind of abuse that's like, that one's even hard to explain to people, I think.
41:28
Kathy Wisniewski: And, I think that almost takes the longest to heal because there's so many.
41:33
Kathy Wisniewski: There's so many variables with that.
41:34
Kathy Wisniewski: But that's how I kind of look at it as just a layered thing.
41:37
Kathy Wisniewski: And, obviously they can cross, physical abuse can cause mental and emotional abuse, but yeah, it's so layered.
41:43
Kathy Wisniewski: And I just hope that this podcast can help people.
41:46
Carmen Hecox: What message would you like to share with other survivors out there?
41:51
Kathy Wisniewski: That, I'm just like you.
41:53
Kathy Wisniewski: I'm no different than anyone else out there that's experienced any kind of abuse.
41:57
Kathy Wisniewski: That, I'm not special.
41:58
Kathy Wisniewski: And I think that, a lot of times the piece that maybe we miss is just like the piece of advice that my mentor gave me.
42:05
Kathy Wisniewski: Like, you're the common denominator.
42:07
Kathy Wisniewski: If you've had, more than one abusive relationship, figure out why.
42:10
Kathy Wisniewski: And don't be offended by that question, but just do the inner work to figure out what is it about me that may be causing me to walk into these situations to not be able to see the signs or that kind of thing.
42:23
Kathy Wisniewski: And go within and control the controllables.
42:25
Kathy Wisniewski: You can't control everything obviously, but there are some things that you can control.
42:28
Kathy Wisniewski: And there is, hope and there are people and places that can encourage you.
42:33
Kathy Wisniewski: I would definitely listen to my podcast and hear some of those stories of hope.
42:36
Kathy Wisniewski: And yeah, I think that, if I did it with someone who I was deeply, deeply in love with, I think you can do it too.
42:43
Carmen Hecox: Great, Kathy, where can people find you?
42:47
Kathy Wisniewski: You can find me, my, my last name is a little challenging.
42:50
Kathy Wisniewski: My website is www.
42:52
Kathy Wisniewski: kathiewisniewski.
42:53
Kathy Wisniewski: com.
42:54
Kathy Wisniewski: It's W I S N I E W S K I, but an easier way to find me is, on Instagram, my podcast page is at Tragically Beautiful Podcast.
43:04
Kathy Wisniewski: And, the website for my podcast is, tragicallybeautiful.
43:08
Kathy Wisniewski: me.
43:09
Carmen Hecox: Kathy, thank you so much for sharing your amazing insight, your amazing story, and your tragically beautiful outcome.
43:19
Kathy Wisniewski: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
43:21
Kathy Wisniewski: I appreciate it.
43:22
Carmen Hecox: Yeah, I will include all of Kathy's information on my show notes and on my website.
43:27
Carmen Hecox: Thank you so much.
43:29
Kathy Wisniewski: Thanks.
43:30
Carmen Hecox: What an enlightening conversation with Kathy Wisniewski.
43:33
Carmen Hecox: Her strength, resilience, and the commitment to helping others is truly commendable.
43:40
Carmen Hecox: It's stories like Kathy that remind us that the power of the human spirit and the importance of community and support.
43:47
Carmen Hecox: If you or someone you know is going through a similar journey, remember that you're not alone.
43:54
Carmen Hecox: Kathy's podcast, Tragically Beautiful, is a wonderful resource that offers stories, insights from other survivors, providing hope, and encouragement.
44:05
Carmen Hecox: Kathy's information along with today's show notes can be found at create the best me.com/ep 0 4 0.
44:17
Carmen Hecox: If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe to stay updated.
44:21
Carmen Hecox: Join me next week as we will delve into the topic of purpose.
44:25
Carmen Hecox: This episode, is an important topic no matter where you are in life, so be sure not to miss it.
44:32
Carmen Hecox: Until then, keep dreaming big, take care of yourself, and remember, you are beautiful, strong, and capable of creating the best version of yourself.
44:43
Carmen Hecox: Thank you for watching.
44:45
Carmen Hecox: Catch you next week.
44:46
Carmen Hecox: Bye for now.