Latest / The UNWavering Podcast / OCD & Living In Freedom | Jackie Sommers '03

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OCD & Living In Freedom | Jackie Sommers '03 · The UNWavering Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, this is Monty and Cassie.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And welcome to another episode of the Unwavering podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Today, we get to have a conversation with the one and only Jackie Somers.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so excited to learn about all kinds of things in her life, uh, her Northwestern story, what she does, and we're gonna talk about OCD, a topic that she's really passionate about.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: So this should be a great episode.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hit the music and then we'll bring Jackie into the studio.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Join as we highlight the people, the purpose, and the pulse of Northwestern.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: This is the Unwavering Podcast.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie Summers.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Am I saying that right?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like the season, Summers.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: So did I screw that up at the beginning?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, you can't.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't too bad, but I can say it better.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie Summers.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I got in my head.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, yours was good.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times people are like Summers.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie Summers.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's the season.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: It is the season.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's the Jackie season of our life this morning.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie Summers is a 2003 graduate of the University of Northwestern St.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Paul, which was Northwestern College at the time, and has spent more than two decades serving at Northwestern, where she currently works in admissions.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: She's also an award-winning author, speaker, and a creative whose writing has earned national recognition, including the Katherine Patterson Prize for Young Adult and Children's Writing.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond her work at Northwestern and as an author, Jackie is passionate about sharing her story with OCD and helping others understand that OCD is treatable and that there is hope.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's someone who brings creativity, authenticity, and a deep love for people to everything she does.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's so true.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie, welcome to the Unwavering Podcast.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's so good to be here.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yay! Well, I always enjoy talking to you, so I'm excited that we have this time together.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, me too.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: We're gonna dive right in.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_04: Just some some light talk.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um what's the Lord teaching you in this season?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a wonderful, wonderful question.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm usually posing that to other people.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm glad we the tables have turned.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So words are so important to me as a writer.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Every year I pick a word for the year.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this year, my word is a Latin word, fiducia.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and how do you spell that?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: F-I-D-U-C-I-A.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Fiducia.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Fiducia.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Fiducia.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it it basically means um trust or confidence or assurance, but it's got a deeper context to it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: You you've probably heard the t term like fiduciary, like a fiduciary.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Responsibility, yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's basically where you have confidence and trust in someone for whom you know that they also have your best interest at heart.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there's even a deeper, a deeper faith and trust to it because you're not just handing it over to a stranger, you're handing it over to somebody uh that is working toward your toward your best as well.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's been my thing for this year is trying to have that sort of trust in in God, especially in in my creative work, but also just in just in life.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I tend to want to hold on to things very tightly and um to work very hard uh and be very ambitious and make all these things happen.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So for me to be able to say, I'm putting these projects into God's hands with trust and confidence that He cares about me and cares about my projects is not an easy thing for me.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's been a really, it's been a really sweet uh thing to experience this year.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna have to use that word more in conversation.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Fiducia.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Fiducia.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a good word.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: My wife and I are in the um, we're trying to come up with a name for baby number four.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, fiducian.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So beautiful.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, maybe not.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_04: Tough one for a little one to spell.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the word uh the trust and confidence in someone who already has your best interest in mind.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels like it feels like in a way, when we think about who God is, like that should be a given, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course, like he's God, we're not.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why of course he has our best interest, but that's that's not how faith always works.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've been through a lot of life, we've experienced a lot, we've got questions, but that's really deep.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I look at my my history, I can see him showing up that way over and over again.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, it does make it a little bit easier to continue to try to put, you know, my faith in him, but sometimes it's still tricky, even even after a whole history of watching him at work.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we need that in our relationships too.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like is that really important to you as a friend to people to be that kind of friend too?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's um I I want to be the same person behind every door and to show up for people in in that way where, you know, they know that I've got their back and I want the best for them.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that shows up a lot in the admissions process for us.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I I see that in you.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean you are very authentic.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you wear a lot of hats here and in your personal life.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_04: So you are an admissions counselor, you're an author, a speaker, a creative, as Monty said in the intro, and an OCD advocate.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_04: You're also an author pun here.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: You're an open book.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: I think you're very transparent and authentic.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um But what is something people would be surprised to learn about you?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: People are always surprised to learn that I'm an introvert.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because I am not shy.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very outgoing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's in these big fun moments that it comes out that I'm an introvert, and people look at me like I don't know what that word means.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I always tell them I love I love what I do.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I have so much fun, I'm not shy, but I will have to, you know, have time alone and with God to really kind of build my energy back up for the next big thing.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is shocking.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would never have guessed it.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Not one bit.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, let's let's talk about your Northwestern story a little bit.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you attended Northwestern and you studied English, writing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what drew you to study writing?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I have always loved stories, always loved stories.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even before I knew the alphabet, I was drawing pictures to tell stories.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um it's been really fun.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have a niece and three nephews, and we went on a vacation and I brought uh a book out that doesn't have any words to it, just pictures.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the pictures are fun but a little quirky.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it might be a cat, but the cat's the size of a dinosaur walking down an alley, you know, or a kid reading, but he's underwater.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so neat to see my niece was baffled at first.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, There's no words.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, You get to make it up.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I I saw this light bulb go off over her head.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes me think that that's what that's what it was like for me as a kid to think, I get to do this, I can create my own stories.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I've just I've just always, always loved that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when the time came to uh look at going to colleges, a lot of schools have English education, right?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can be an English teacher, but I have known since I was very young that I wanted to be a writer.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And Northwestern had not just the English education, but it had a specific concentration in writing.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very, very drawn to that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And my youth pastor went to Northwestern, who was one of the biggest spiritual influences in my life.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So influenced me to kind of check out Northwestern, and it ended up being a great fit.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And here I am 26 years later, still at Northwestern.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, very cool that Northwestern had the program that you were hoping for.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And of course it has the faith element here at Northwestern where it's integrated into all of it.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also just speaking into, and if you're listening to this and you're an alum or you know, you have influence, you hang out with students, like that's a common story of students who come to Northwestern is because they knew an alum who was their youth pastor or was a friend of theirs and said, Hey, you should just check it out.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a strong vote of confidence, especially as you're pouring into the next generation.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Who were some people who really shaped you during your time at Northwestern?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: The first person that I absolutely have to shout out is Judith Haugen.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: She uh was my primary creative writing instructor, and she was just so critical in um shaping me during my time at Northwestern.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, still, um, I I got coffee with her a week or so ago.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she is somebody whose wisdom has been life-changing for me, and also somebody who's helped me grow in my in my craft and and in understanding being a Christian writer.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh two people who really have impacted me during my time as an employee at Northwestern, uh, one would be Jim Johnson, who I think was just on the post.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: He and I uh for a few years would go and recruit at the Life Light Music Festival that Life 96.5 would be sponsoring out in South Dakota.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And those times with him are some of my favorite memories.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And really, he he helped me approach being being a Northwestern ambassador and employee in a different, more freeing way.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: He really was so impactful for me.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I cannot not give a shout out to Ken Faffler, who was the director of admissions at Northwestern for many, many years.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, to this day, if I'm dealing with a tricky situation, I will probably hop on my phone and text Ken.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: What would you do in this situation?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um these are people, along with so many, so many others.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Monica Groves.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Monica.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Monica Groves, oh, was uh a literal actual like assigned to be my mentor.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that was that was amazing too.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so many people.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even begin.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: But those those are those are a few that uh have been really special to me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, come on, that's awesome.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: The people make such a big difference.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: They really do.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_04: And you know what?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_04: When in 20 years, when this podcast is still going, obviously, um somebody's gonna say you.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Jackie Summers.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I always grow it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, totally.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, we our tagline for the podcast is the people, the purpose, the pulse of Northwestern.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it is so great to have to get to know more and more of these Northwestern people.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, looking back, what area of campus or experience at Northwestern had the greatest impact on you?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely the writing program was was huge for me.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think when I was in high school, I was a bit more compartmentalized.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I had my my faith and I had my writing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe they maybe, you know, in a Venn diagram they overlapped if I was writing very specifically about faith.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: But during my experience at Northwestern, it felt like it felt like just melding together to become a whole person.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a believer, I'm a Christ follower, and I'm a writer.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just, it's not, it's just one circle, you know?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't have to be specifically writing a story for Easter Sunday for it to be Christian writing, because I am a Christian and I am writing.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: My worldview goes into everything, everything that I write.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I it was so it's really interesting for me to see the way that those two sort of became one thing during my time studying writing at Northwestern.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that one was huge for me.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think just living in the dorms is just such an experience when you've never maybe had something like that.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: The closest thing I I suppose I'd had to that was summer Bible camp, which is there's some similarities and crossovers, but it's not like spending years.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: It ends after a week.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: It ends after a week.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and and I think too at at camp, sometimes, you know, with one week, maybe you can avoid some of those real life pitfalls, like fighting with people or being super stressed, or you know, I mean, in college, you're gonna have bad days, you're gonna have relationship issues, you're gonna have to study for tests that you don't feel prepared for.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it feels more, I guess, real life.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and that was a really interesting thing for me to get to experience that Christian community.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in a Christian home, so it wasn't like I had no experience with that, but amongst peers, right?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just such a different and unique experience and um and was just so much fun.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just so much fun.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you had you had your writing world and your faith world all of a sudden mashed together, and at the same time, it was happening in this community where you were being real and surrounded with people with a similar worldview.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how has that continued to impact you today?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like did that make a big influence on you?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it still does.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I talk to other people, even Northwestern grads who, you know, have left Northwestern.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've sent them out into the world to do their work.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: It it's very different, I think, to be someone who still is in that Christian environment at Northwestern.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in a different role, right?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It it looks different to work there than it than it does to be a student there.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you continue to be surrounded by this community that is so uplifting, but it's also the real world, you know.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Work gets stressful and you have deadlines, and you know, you might get crabby and have to deal with, you know, your coworkers have to deal with you being crabby.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like it, it's it's just a continuation of that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me, I feel very, very blessed to be in the the community that I am.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know that not everybody gets an experience like mine.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, speaking of which, so you graduated in 2003, and then as far as we know, you bounced right into working in admissions.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what appealed to you right out of college?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so when I graduated in May of 2003, I did not think that I would be back to Northwestern.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually started back my my interview was on move-in day.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I came back kind of, you know, it did feel kind of cyclical like I had been doing.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I graduated in three years instead of four because I'd done some, you know, college work while I was in high school.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: But most of my friends were coming back for a fourth year, and I'm a writer and very dramatic.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like tears and this season of my life is ending, and and everybody's coming back to have fun without me, and I have to go find a job.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when I was in college, I was a camp counselor, and it was life-changing for me.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I went into being a camp counselor, being uh someone who was devoted to the camp experience, like as a camper, and kind of was like, well, I'm too old for it now.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'll go back as a camp counselor.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: But realizing that that was even better, more fulfilling, more fun, more exciting, and and my heart just opened up to teenagers.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that first week that I was a camp counselor.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and and life was very different be the week before and the week after.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was helping out with a local youth group.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so after I graduated that summer, I took a girl from my youth group out for pizza to talk about she was gonna be a senior, you know, are you thinking about college, what kind of school do you want to go to, what majors are you thinking about?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And on my drive home, I thought that was really fun.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I really like that.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not joking, I went home and I went on the Northwestern website and the job was available in admissions.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I mean, it was like a moment where like I started shaking um because it was like it was like God putting the idea into my head, and then I went home and the job was open.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I applied for it, um, interviewed on move-in day, and I started in um late September.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't I didn't graduate thinking that I would be staying at Northwestern.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was a summer process, and then I was back in September.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And those that first year was a little tricky because I'm now an employee and all my friends are still students, you know.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So here I am over two decades later, still in the admissions office, still working with families, still just have my heart wide open to teenagers.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's just one of the most exciting times of life, um, which is also why I write for teenagers.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and when I look back, I I think I it's hard for me to imagine a different path.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was graduating, it was not on my radar at all to come back to Northwestern or to work in.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think that's that's so cool.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like I mean, not that it's the wrong way to do it, but some people choose their first job just because they needed a job.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And they choose one and they're open and great, awesome.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for you, you had this pause and and the Lord worked in your heart and then he led you back.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's rich.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, thanks.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was really neat.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I love that you that you came back and you've been here for two decades.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_04: That was a big day for both of us.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: I was moving in that day.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, isn't that funny?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: Look at us overlapping.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: September 2003 was your move in day.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: It was, yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: We were both experiencing a big life moment there.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: I really was.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I drove onto campus and you know, you see people.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think your year, did you do something in the pond lot?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone had to stop and get some information.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we did.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I just my my heart just grew like the Grinch, three sizes, and I thought, oh, I want to do this so bad.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no wonder you guys are good friends.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Cassie showed up on campus and your heart grew three sizes.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's happy to the best of us.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was starting eighth grade.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: A little bit wow.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you were talking about working with teenagers, and is that at is that what's at the heart of it for you?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: What what motivates you in your work?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that is at least the original motivator was to work with teenagers and to be in an environment where you are encouraged to go deep with them, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: To to take it beyond surface level.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: What is God doing in your life?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or even, you know, when you if you go on a campus visit anywhere, you know, you're gonna get these questions of, you know, what do you want your future to look like?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: What jobs are you interested in?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: What majors are you thinking about?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but at a place like Northwestern, it's it's deeper than that, you know, where do you feel like God is calling you to?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: What kinds of gifts has He given you that you think that He could really use in your future?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are what are things and ways that you want to grow in the next season of your life?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And how are you gonna, how are you gonna plug into a community that is gonna help you become the person that you wanna be and grow in those different character ways?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I love that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's in some ways, this is these are questions every college admission counselor is gonna ask.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, it's just totally different, right?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just coming at it from a deeper and different angle.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I yeah, it's no surprise.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: The conversations that you're having are coming from your experience again that you that you that happened to you here at Northwestern and what the Lord is continuing to do in you as you get a chance to help people step into those seasons.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're not just giving them guidance on classes, you're thinking about their whole person.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I I remember talking to one student who actually ended up coming and becoming the student body president at Northwestern.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm I remember checking in with him during his freshman year and saying, you know, how's it going?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Jackie, I have two older sisters who went here.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not unfamiliar with the school.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I thought I knew what I was getting into.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it is so much more and better than I even guessed.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just so exciting to get to see people come and just blossom in that way.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's the same thing.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: For me, like it's I I thought I knew what I was getting into going to Northwestern, and it was so much more than than I even expected.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: More than I could ask or imagine.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a verse about that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you've had, like we've talked about, two decades worth of helping families.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's a lot of people coming through.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure there are commonalities with people in their decision, but what is something that you wish they knew about making a college decision?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there's sort of this sense, especially I feel like more recently, of I'm just I'm just going to school to get a degree, and you can get that anywhere.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not what college is, or it's not what college has to be.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: College for some of us is a life-changing experience that changes the whole trajectory of your future.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just, well, I went to school A and got this degree, but I could have gotten it cheaper at school B.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's the friends that you make, the experiences that you have, the ways that a school like Northwestern teaches you and prepares you for future growth.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just, here's these four years that you're here, and we're gonna do our very best to have you grow during these four years.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, whatever happens, happens.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's how can we, how can we invest in you during this time so that you go out from here and make a huge difference in the world and also just become who you are, fully who you are.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I think that that's so special.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the times when I'm chatting with high school students, and and I don't blame them, they're thinking about what will my four years be like.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I sometimes tell them the faculty and staff here are thinking about what are the next 30, 40, 50 years of your life gonna look like.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we use this really special time, this four years that we have you here at Northwestern to help prepare you for a whole lifetime of growth?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's good to be thinking of as a parent.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my kids are currently six and under, but we are starting to think ahead about how can we help them have a childhood experience that grows them into like really great adults that are awesome human beings, but also ready to live into the calling and make an impact for his kingdom.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I imagine as as parents, maybe some of you listening, are parents in this boat, as you consider where does your your student go to college or university.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it might be Northwestern, it might not be more Northwestern, but what you're saying is consider the greater view and think through like what does Northwestern offer with that holistic experience that could be a part of that or or could not be a part of that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I feel like I'm on this podcast being like still an admission counselor.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: You are it does, it goes with you wherever you go.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of you, and that's what I've really enjoying about this conversation.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and we're gonna um, as I like to say, uh hit the conversation blinker and change lanes in a second.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: But there's different aspects of you, Jackie, and it's been so fun to hear about a little bit more about your Northwestern story, your passion and admissions.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And now I want to jump back to what we were talking about just a little bit ago about you being an author and a speaker and a creative.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to admit, until I started kind of doing a little prep on these questions, I had no idea that you were an author until Cassie told me.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me, uh, give us a high level of your writing career.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: We what have you published?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you write?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still at the beginning of my writing career.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I have one book um for teenagers out with Harper Collins.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I have another book that I just spent the last 11 or 12 years working on that is ready to go.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: But long story short, my my literary agent just retired.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually have to take a step back and get a new agent before I can move forward again.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And just have other projects, you know, on the on the back burner.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: The last couple of years have been really fun and exciting.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: I won a really cool grant for young adult authors in 2024.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I won a cool poetry contest last year that was really fun.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I won um, I did not win.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I did not win.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was the one of the runners up for a huge grant, like$25,000.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you're the runner up, you get zero.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but it's but it's you know, it's a real boost, right?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a reminder that like your gifts are being used in the right way and the knowledge of your craft and the way that you're learning it matters and you that you continue to grow and expand that way.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I am excited for what comes next, but also really trying to uh garnish that fiducia of like getting the right agent, finding the right next steps in the process and figuring out what that looks like.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it's interesting to kind of move forward, take a step back, try to move forward again.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess that's life.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So writing's not a tidy process.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a tidy process.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, writing is, you know, 90% revision.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you work on a first draft and you you get a draft, and some people outside of the world of writing think that's so exciting, and you're like, it might mean a decade for me.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a slower writer.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, like I said, I just spent 11 or 12 years on the last story that I've been working on.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, it's it's tricky.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a weird world to be in when you're someone who's sensitive to feedback, but you you can't you can't be.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be and you can't be.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the joy of being a creative.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they always say it like as a if you're you know, as a creative writer, you have to have a hard heart to criticism, and you absolutely cannot have a hard heart to criticism.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like perfect, great, excellent.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um you you've so you write poetry, but also books.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like do you have a favorite style of writing?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I write my primary I would say my primary writing is contemporary young adult literature.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So writing book-length prose for teens, but not in like a a really heavy commercial genre, more of like a literary fiction, contemporary realism.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Ross Powell Gotcha, gotcha.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you know I've never written an uh a book of really of any length, actually.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what's something that most people don't know about what it means to be a novelist or to to write a full book?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: There is so much uncertainty in the process, and there is so much faith in the process.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and you've might have heard the term, the creative process.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what they're talking about is that uh that you trust the process.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: You write a first draft, and it's probably very bad.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: But you but you don't give up, you trust that draft two is gonna be better and draft three, and finally maybe draft 17 is gonna be publishable.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really tricky, you know.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, and we're gonna talk about OCD, and the core of OCD is a discomfort, an intense discomfort with uncertainty.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it does feel a little like I have OCD and I'm in a career that is full of uncertainty.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's yeah, that's a wild ride.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I want to ask more questions, or we want to ask more questions about OCD, but one more question about the kind of the writing process.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned earlier as a little kid that you would love just imagining and coming up with stories.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you still find that joy in writing today?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it is it it feels so special, and I feel a little spoiled to think that that can be a job, that God can give you a great imagination and curiosity and then turn it into a career or um a calling and how special that is to get to do that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, absolutely, all the time.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And some of my I mean, I love doing it for my job, but I also just love doing that with kids when you're playing, right?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or when you're um, you know, in riding in the car with my niece and nephews and saying, let's tell a story about uh, and someone says unicorn, right?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, whose name was Bob?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just really it's just so exciting to get to be, you know, Christian is little Christ, right?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've got uh God, who is the creator, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: The author um of our lives.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um in the beginning was the word, and then we get to take that and run with it as little Christs, little creators.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love how you're talking about this.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: We just had Terry Esau on the podcast.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he was he was saying um it almost feels selfish that he gets to have so much fun because he loves bikes and loves guitars, and he has so much fun helping kids get a bike and get a guitar.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's having so much fun doing it, and and he's helping people with it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a conversation about how there's something there that something that you find great joy in for you, this this writing creative process, and yet you're using it for the good to make people's lives better.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's a gal at Northwestern who will be a sophomore when she comes back in a couple weeks, and she's been working on a book of her own about an experience.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: She's an athlete, and it's when she had a life-changing injury and how she healed through that and um what faith looked like in that moment.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she's finally done with it, and she messaged me about it uh yesterday.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, what are you gonna do to celebrate?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: She said, probably just take a deep breath because I'm so glad that I've figured out.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Let's let's have a reading, let's have a little party, let's let's let people ask questions and buy copies of your book.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're like planning a little launch party for her when she gets back to school.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's so cool.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I love fun.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh well, okay, we are gonna switch gears again, Jackie, to a topic that is very personal for you and for many listening, I'm sure.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I don't know, for myself too.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: So let's dive into OCD.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, something that you're very open about, and I appreciate that.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um can you take us back to kind of the beginning of your knowledge of OCD and how did you figure out what you were dealing with?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so some of it is in hindsight, right?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in hindsight, I can see that OCD came on very suddenly for me at about age seven.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: I did not get diagnosed until 15 years later.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I did not get the appropriate treatment until 20 years after that.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: So from age seven, I finally got treatment and some relief at age 27.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually mimics a lot of OCD experience.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: The it says usually takes an average of 14 to 17 years to get proper diagnosis and treatment.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the big things for me in OCD awareness advocacy is bringing it to the forefront sooner so that treatment can happen earlier and that families can find some relief and freedom from it, and maybe not wait 14 to 17 years or even 20.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's been so I blogged pretty consistently for years about OCD and have interacted with people with OCD from all over the world.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my favorite stories was a family that had their daughter started having bad thoughts.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm putting that in quotes, bad thoughts.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Went online, Googled it, brought it them to my website.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: They learned all about it.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: She got diagnosed, came over to they're from a different state, but they came over to Mayo Clinic, did an intensive treatment, drove up to Minneapolis, St.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Paul to meet with me at Northwestern to talk with me.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, they were able to get to that diagnosis and treatment within months instead of years.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's just that's just that's just so special.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's just amazing, you know, because it really is obsessive-compulsive disorder.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's is really if you pick apart the name, right?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Obsessions are intrusive thoughts, and everybody has intrusive thoughts.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the time, and most people can say, huh, that was weird and let it go.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: People who have OCD, uh, it it continues to cycle around and around and around.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me an example of an intrusive thought?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am going to hurt someone.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Something bad is gonna happen to me if I don't do X.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: It could also be because it really impacts the things that are most important to you.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually find that a lot of people who are from a faith background might have an intrusive thought, like a bad thought or blasphemous thought toward God.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it it comes out of nowhere.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: It they cannot handle, they cannot just dismiss it.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: That that was weird.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Where did that come from?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Moving on, right?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: It goes around and around and around.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the anxiety ramps up to such tremendous levels.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people will describe it as terror.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it ramps up to such tremendous levels that they will feel forced or compelled to do something to alleviate that anxiety, and that's what the compulsion is, right?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if I say the thought keeps coming into my head that I am going to run someone over with my car.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the anxiety levels get to a point that I feel like I cannot handle it.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to do something to alleviate that anxiety.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I decide I'm not gonna drive today.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: So then temporarily my anxiety levels go down because I don't have to worry about it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not driving today.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: But then the next day, I really should go to work.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe I won't go to work today because I'm not gonna drive today.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and and eventually the compulsion gets out of control.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So now you've got the the obsession or intrusive thought that has, you know, felt like it's ruining your life.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the compulsion, which at for a time may have felt like it was actually providing you some relief, is now also out of control and impacting your life.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so the two of them together, now you have the disorder.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: You have the obsessive and compulsive disorder.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you have all of the aspects of it.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I said, you know, everybody can have an element of obsession or compulsive activities.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to be defined as OCD, it needs to have a significant um impact on your daily life.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Debilitating.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, debilitating.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and I'm glad you described intrusive thoughts and the methods that people will try to avoid them, because I think OCD is sometimes oftentimes misunderstood as, well, you like things really neat, or yeah, you wash your hands a lot.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very it's it's tricky.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say so there's different themes of OCD.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And one theme is um compulsive uh like uh cleanliness or neatness, which usually is actually stemming from an intrusive thought about either being sick or contaminated or contaminating someone else, right?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so if I think I am going to make everybody sick, then it feels it it temporary relieves it for me to go wash my hands.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I talked to a a gal once who was spending eight hours in the shower.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's debilitating.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's not that's you know, she's a high school student and she's spending all day washing herself because of these intense fears.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so now the you know, the compulsion is not providing that relief either, or maybe it still is a little bit, but it's it's obviously out of control.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone with OCD except very young kids, they typically have an understanding that that something's not right.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like they either understand that the obsession is not really real, or they understand this compulsion is out of control.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the intensity of the discomfort with uncertainty is like I'd rather, I'd rather get rid of that, so I do it anyway.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and full disclosure, I also have OCD, and these things have manifested in very irrational ways.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_04: So um they have no correlation.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like if I don't do this thing exactly the same as I did it yesterday, something bad will happen.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think that's part of where part of where media really struggles because there are so many, there are various themes that are very internal, right?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of sometimes even the the intrusive thoughts and even the compulsions are very internal.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe if you had this blasphemous thought, your compulsion is to uh say uh a quick prayer.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this would be different, right, than like an actual like I'm having a relationship with God prayer.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: This becomes ritualistic.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like this blasphemous thought pops up, so this ritualistic prayer brings it back down.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: But how do you display that in media?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is so much easier for media to show someone going and washing their hands or organizing something.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so even though it feels like the majority of people, and I don't know the stats on this, but it feels like the majority of um sufferers that I talk to actually are dealing with more of a less visible form of it.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes it's called pure O, but it's pure pure obsession, but it's it's not.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that the compulsions aren't as visible.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um because of that, you know, they don't I feel like media has really struggled with how to portray that.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: How do it would be a really boring TV episode if it was just watching someone have facial expressions of, ooh, bad thought, good thought, mm-hmm, bad thought, you know.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: But it's easier to show them doing something, which then I think leads people to think, oh, OCD, that's that thing where you get you're really clean, right?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at least a big time misunderstanding.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like and I'm I'm in this conversation, I'm just learning and just soaking all this in because this is all new to me.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm completely ignorant and not happy about that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you should be.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: You should be so happy.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: My wife wouldn't be surprised that I don't.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I and I it is often, or oftentimes you'll hear somebody say, I'm so OCD.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like pretty casually.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, what does that make you think about, Jackie?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's it's really tricky because, you know, as Cassie said, you use the word debilitating.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then to have somebody use it because they like to make sure that their socks match their outfit.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's not debilitating.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: That means you're kind of quirky and fashionable.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so then to say like, that's really like OCD of me, it doesn't really have any relationship.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where are your intrusive thoughts?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Where um is your you know, sky-high anxiety?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: What things are you doing to uh, you know, alleviate that?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it is very possible that someone with OCD could have an intrusive thought.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my my mom will die if my socks don't match my outfit.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not gonna do it today.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna do it today.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna match them.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna just do it because then I'll take away the uncertainty.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not usually what they're talking about.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: But we're usually it's probably making light of it, which I think probably comes from a deep misunderstanding.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've been even worse.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because when somebody would say, I'm so OCD, I would say, Do you mean C D O Like alphabetical or like I'm like I think I'm being funny because all I'm thinking is it requires somebody who's really organized.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm realizing now in this conversation, that's probably actually pretty hurtful.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making fun of something that's a very real thing for in the lives of people.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe talk to the listener who is like me and learning this all brand new.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you've already started to explain just what OCD is, and it's just a teaser of what OCD is, right?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: But let's start to talk about like, you know, how does somebody, you know, what hope is is there for somebody with OCD, or how can somebody that doesn't have OCD support those who have it in their life?
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a gold standard treatment, which is called uh exposure.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And response prevention therapy, also called ERP therapy, and it falls under the umbrella of cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: It is even better when paired with appropriate medication.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: But even without medication, they would still say it is the number one thing.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: ERP plus meds, gold standard.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: ERP is the next thing.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just meds is not nearly as helpful.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And even, which surprises a lot of people, your typical talk therapy, where you go in and spend an hour chatting about things with a therapist is not the expected treatment for OCD.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: What it often would turn into is an hour of compulsions, because a lot of compulsions end up being seeking reassurance, confession, and you're spending a whole you're spending a whole hour basically giving in to all of your compulsions.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exposure and response prevention therapy is a very different and unique therapy.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people have a really bad reaction to hearing what it is.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is the exposure part means that you're going to be triggered.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you're going to be triggered to think about your intrusive thought.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: But the response prevention means they're going to ask you not to perform your compulsion, which alleviates it.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: So people who have OCD, when you are triggered and you're not doing anything to alleviate it, it feels almost unbearable.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: It feels uh almost impossible.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: But uh in retrospect, when you think about something like a cold pool, if you dip your toe into a cold pool, you might never get into it.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: But if you cannonball into it and you spend 10 minutes in it, what happens?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: You it doesn't feel cold anymore, right?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is part of that's a very basic idea of what is happening here.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it is it is actually exposure and response prevention therapy literally physically rewires parts of your brain.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it allows for, instead of where I was saying those intrusive thoughts just gallop around and around, it allows for them to come in and go out.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm gonna give you an example of exposure therapy.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it it's not pleasant, okay?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe somebody is very, very worried about cleanliness.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: They dump the their garbage can on their bed and make them lay in it.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe you think if I'm in a room with knives, I'm going to hurt someone.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're you might have to be triggered and sit in a room with a knife in your hand with people you care about.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um now I'm talking about there's usually a pyramid.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: They don't start you with a knife in your hand.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, um you start with they you know, they explore your different obsessions and compulsions and you kind of rank them and you start with what's the easiest, right?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when you get and you start by doing where you're ranking your anxiety levels before, during, and after, and you continue to do it maybe for up to 40 minutes a day, and you're continually ranking your anxiety levels.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And when the anxiety hits half of what it started to be, you can move on to the next step.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, that top of that pyramid might be laying in your garbage.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: It might be having someone wipe something pretty gross on your hand and having to sit with it.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: It could be that you have to, I mean, for those who have um more like faith-based or religious compulsions, they may have to listen to a story in which they go to hell.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: When I talk about it, so I've been invited to speak about it with a lot of um psychology courses, uh, especially here at Northwestern.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: And students are appalled by how this sounds.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it is it is a little confusing, right?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Especially when we talk about how the truth sets you free.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then here we're saying, you know, you're gonna sit with something so negative.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it it works.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: It works and it did it set me free.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: I always talk about say that I was rescued twice.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I when I got my salvation from the Lord, and when things finally clicked during exposure therapy, and I could live in a freedom that I hadn't experienced since I was a young child.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: In a weird way, this is um, you know, we have a son that has some severe allergies.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's not the same, but parallel with the idea of exposing allergens and helping the body to learn that this is okay or like to deal with it.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I want to try to make another connection, and you can correct me if this is not a fair connection.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: But we uh we had Dayton Dodge here on on the podcast just earlier this season talking about the theme for chapel this year, which is revival ready.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he was sharing about at the heart of that is whether it's a physical revival or just a revival of you and your soul, it's a willingness to open up your heart to the Lord and allow him to deal with the brokenness and pain and get your heart in a spot that is ready and okay with him to do what he wants to do in your life.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, like is there a connection with that idea in in our faith of being revival ready, willing to face the the scary stuff or the mess or the whatever and what you've experienced with ERP?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: For me, a hundred percent.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: I had to pray a pretty, like a pretty raw prayer of Lord, I don't know how this works.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, I was not even sure is is this honoring to you?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I said, but God, I believe from all that I've learned that this is a tool that you can use.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I am asking God that you would use this experience to toward your honor and to change my life and and to throw away any parts of it that might not be.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was and it was life-changing.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was just I mean, this happened for me in um 2008.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking almost 20 years after that, and I'm tearing up.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: It it is it is freedom, and it is, I mean, for so many years I felt like I had this ceiling above me, and my prayers would float up and and hit the ceiling.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: They couldn't get to God.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it felt like God used exposure therapy to help me understand that.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it helped me to experience him in a different way.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, when scripture would talk about freedom, that was a sort of a weird concept that I did not understand.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'm I'm glad for people who have that, but that's not what my experience is, and now it is, and that um and that came about through um exposure therapy and God using that um in my life.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that, you know, chemotherapy is not a pleasant experience, but the society has a better understanding of but this is how we treat it, right?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we treat cancer.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: We use, you know, chemotherapy.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so people go through that experience and reach this other side, a changed person, and in some ways potentially healed or more healed.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that it is a little bit trickier, I think, for the faith community to understand something like um a brain disorder than it is to understand um a broken arm or a cancer diagnosis.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not, you know, those things are tricky too.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I think that the faith community sometimes with people who have brain disorders are more like, well, is there one, is there sin in your life that's causing this, which is very tricky for people who have those kinds of mental illnesses to feel like this is another thing on top of how they're already feeling, and now their community that is meant to support them is actually almost sort of accusing them.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then even just, you know, the treatment, it fee it sounds a little woo-woo, you know?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds a little like, what are you doing?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it is, it's the it's the standard, gold standard treatment for that.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me, it was really, it was really like a I I'm at I'm at my wit's end, Lord, and I have to fully put this into your hands and ask that you would transform me and that you would use it how you want.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's why it's so important that Christians talk about some of this when as they're comfortable.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because it opens people's eyes to the help that they can receive through therapy, medication, and the relationship with the Lord.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_04: I know I've been told you should you should solve this with prayer.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right, right.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: As as if we have not been doing that for years.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, for me, to a point where I had turned prayer into like a a ritual, you know.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, it was happening all the time.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like everything I think in the life of a believer is spiritual, but it also is uh an illness.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's an illness that thankfully has um the ability to be treated.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've had a good experience with um sharing my story, but I didn't know that I was going to.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very, very scared to share it, especially with um the Christian community because I didn't know what their reaction um would be.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very grateful that I've had um a good response, but not everybody does.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it sounds intense.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would say it doesn't sound like woo-woo or crazy or whatever word we want to use.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, and I'm not someone that struggles with OCD, so I don't I don't want to risk oversimplifying all of this.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it sounds a lot to me like it that it has parallels with us facing reality and facing what is real in our life, whether it's things like OCD or it's our own brokenness, our own sin.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we had our pastor said, he was quoting a different guy, and I'm not gonna quote this right, but he said, You're worse than you know.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like if we can face the fact that we have brokenness and sin, that's real.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then it gets better.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: But cheer up, the gospel's better than you can imagine.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we get to this point where we can face our brokenness, then we have a chance to heal.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like that's a big part of your testimony with OCD.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's a testimony that we have in our faith as well as we like are saved.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just want to thank you for being open and sharing your story and being vulnerable with this thing.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: And Cassie also for being willing to share from your experience too.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and this has been really insightful for me, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this learning what OCD is and just starting to dip my foot, dip my toe in the cold water to understand.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: But to understand and to be able to appreciate, and I can only imagine that now with this, this is helpful for me as I uh talk with people who have OCD to understand, like, okay, they they might be cannonballing into that cold water.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if I can get to know them well enough, then I can I can go maybe jump in with them or be a be a safe, trusted friend.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_04: Sit in the garbage, Mati.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sit in the garbage.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: I will sit in the garbage with you.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I will.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we we ask every guest this question.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: We use it as a closing question.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Jackie, what does it mean to you to live an unwavering life?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I love we are unwavering.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love that that term.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it hasn't always felt true for me because I feel like I'm always battling through something or another.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the image, so as a writer, images are so so important to me.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: The image that comes to mind for me with unwavering, especially for me as a fallible human, I think of Moses in the desert holding up his arms and and then needing help to do that, right?
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in his case, you know, his brother came and helped hold up his arms, right?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a reminder to me the importance of it, but also that I can't do it by myself.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not unwavering alone.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have to, I have to rely on God.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have to rely on the spirit, I have to rely on the community to to hold up my my arms, to be unwavering.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that that's it's awesome.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: We need we need God's unwavering grace and we need community around us.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: And as we build this community together at Northwestern, we have an opportunity to do just that, to encourage one another and to grow in our unwavering love for God's word and our unwavering love for his world.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jackie, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join us.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you all for listening.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Jackie, thank you for joining us, and we will be back tomorrow.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: To hear more, subscribe and leave a rating wherever you listen.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: And if you know an alum, faculty member, staff, or student of Northwestern doing amazing things out in the world, let us know at alumni at umwsp.edu, the unwavering podcast, highlighting the people, the purpose, and the pulse of Northwestern.