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Women in Project Management: Career tips from three female high-flyers · Project Podcast

0:13
Welcome to the OPM podcast. OPM is the childhood body for
0:16
the project profession. My name is Emma DeVito and I'm
0:19
the editor of project apm's quarterly journal and your host
0:23
today. I've invited three High Flyers
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from the world of projects who also contributed to apm's women
0:28
in project management conference this year which was a terrific
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success and a really busy event. And this follow up, her car
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seems to gather together their career tips for project
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professionals so that you can benefit from their wonderful
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advice. Bell.
0:45
Jacqueline. Daisy, welcome, shall we go
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around our virtual room so that you can introduce yourselves
0:51
who'd like to go first. I will if you don't mind.
0:55
I'm Jacqueline. Okay, me Daniel.
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I'm director of project management working for Tetra
1:01
Tech my role is to oversee, the London region of p.m. sqs and
1:08
project controls. And I've been working in project
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management and project controls for over 13 years.
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Now, 14 years actually, Okay, thank you.
1:19
And Daisy. Yeah, hi there.
1:22
I'm Daisy, Milton. I'm a project manager with
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experience mostly in defense and government.
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Projects was a civil servant for nearly five years.
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But I've recently moved back stroke engineering and I'm a
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consultant there. I'm currently working back into
1:36
mod on submarine. Disposal, okay, great and Bell.
1:41
Hi I'm Val French. I'm a project manager at Leeds
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and I work in their infrastructure team.
1:47
Okay, great and you're the youngest of her childhood.
1:51
Professionals that right? Yes, that is correct.
1:56
It still seems a bit of a shock whenever people say that but yes
2:00
it is, it is correct. So I did my shot to death
2:05
earlier this year. Okay, brilliant.
2:07
So no doubt you've got some career tips, that others even
2:11
younger than you might be looking to take on board.
2:13
So they kind of a beat your world record did.
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So you'll came to, with him this year.
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How did you find it? Did did any of you?
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Take anything in particular way from it, that, that, that
2:25
resonated or that you've put into practice.
2:28
One thing I would say was, it was just amazing to see so many
2:32
women in the room. So, working construction rooms
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for Jacqueline and Daisy will say exactly the same.
2:40
We work in male-dominated, Industries and a lot of the time
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we used to being potentially, the only female in a room and it
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just being really normal such lie to have a room that was
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Primarily female was quite a strange but a really nice
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environment to be in and one that we don't encounter very
3:01
often and I think all of the talks were really interesting,
3:05
especially the ones that I attended on on, well, beyond the
3:08
well-being, toolkits and just opening up topics that I hadn't
3:13
necessarily hard before. So I'm yeah, I thought it was a
3:15
really positive conference. I agree.
3:19
It was refreshing. To see so many active
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participants of a p.m., but I'm also just just Keen individuals
3:28
who are whether they're students and people that are trying to
3:33
get more involved with their profession in project
3:37
management. And it was really it was really
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nice to have that kind of active involvement.
3:47
Yeah, it was, it was really interesting actually to chat to
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people from from various Industries.
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Are people people there from all over?
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And it was great to kind of get insights from from everybody.
3:57
I think back on what ballad said about it was great to have so
4:01
many women in the room. I absolutely agree about that at
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the moment. I'm in a team of about 10
4:05
people, and I'm the only woman and to me, I don't notice
4:09
because we're used to being in that male-dominated industry.
4:12
But I think the thing that I really enjoyed about the
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conference was that there were Were men there as well and I
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think sometimes he's conferences that are aimed at women in it
4:21
can it can put men off of engaging and actually that's the
4:25
opposite effect of what we want. We want to bring people in and
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we want people to be considered on equal par as one another.
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So it was really nice to know there were men joining in the
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conversation as well. I am just going to put it out
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there but do you ever think of yourself as I am a female
4:39
project? Professional is gender something
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that you feel has impacted on your career, whether in a
4:45
positive - why was it been completely neutral?
4:50
I think from from my perspective, I have always
4:53
worked in male-dominated Industries, but I didn't think
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that it's hindered me, I think it's a different perspective for
5:00
sure that, you know, I might take a different approach to
5:04
certain topics or certain things than a man in my position would
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be very fortunate to work with very, very supportive teams and
5:13
people that actually, if I was to say that I felt uncomfortable
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or to say that, I felt In any way, I think they'd have stepped
5:21
up to make sure that that was no longer the case though.
5:24
I'm perfect. I absolutely agree that there
5:27
are some instances where that might not be the case, and we
5:29
really should stand that out. But I personally, I've had great
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experiences of the of the people I've worked with and that might
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just be Testament to the individuals.
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I'm not sure. Okay, that's good to hear anyone
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else. Had any thoughts on that?
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It's normally my least. Favorite question being asked?
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About being a female in project management or a lot of the time
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it's about being a project manager and construction.
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And I guess for me, I never looked at my career path and
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thought of anything untoward about it.
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I never thought about I chose it because it was an industry that
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I was really passionate about. I'm really interested in and so
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I progressed I think especially in the early start of my career,
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the only time I'd question it was when other people pointed.
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Out. But I think actually the further
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down my career I've got I think I've noticed it more in terms of
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terminology that people have used towards me that they
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wouldn't use to my male counterparts or just even being
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on construction sites. And I was telling this story to
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someone recently just being mistaken often for like health
6:43
and safety or the reception, just because that's a stereotype
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Typically like the female role within on construction site.
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So I have found that being the case just but actually, I think
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I've been supported as much as my male counterparts.
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Particularly, I think being a consultant.
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See, it's very diverse environment.
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So I've definitely been been lucky in that respect.
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But do you have any advice to women who do find themselves in
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a situation where Agenda has made a difference so it could be
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you know, you're taking to be the receptionist.
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Do you, how do you deal with that to you just ignore it and
7:26
carry on? Or is it something that you then
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raised with a manager or someone?
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I think it really depends on the circumstance.
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So It's yeah it's a difficult one.
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You do I feel like especially in construction there are times
7:42
that you need to have a thick skin and stick up for yourself
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but actually managers are pretty amazing.
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Actually in this industry that if If you do have anything that
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makes you uncomfortable, or if people are talking down to you,
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I feel like you can raise it. And that that conversation will
8:04
be Hardware. That's a stand down with the
8:06
team or on a smaller scale. It depends on what that
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circumstances. So I would always advise raising
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it if you're uncomfortable and talking to your manager about
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but again it depends on the scale of it.
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I think there has been a lot of progression in the industry
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particularly construction industry, I think previously
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some people wouldn't have even noticed that.
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There isn't the right infrastructure for female
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bathrooms on site or the PPE equipment for females but
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actually now a lot of businesses are really progressing to really
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make it more inclusive so it's becoming less and less
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noticeable that we are more female.
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The industry now compared to before because it you just start
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feeling it's part of your day-to-day job, anyway.
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I wanted to get into the kind of career tips just moving away
9:03
from the whole kind of gender thoughts.
9:06
I have to confess that I asked all of you to send me some of
9:09
your tips in advance, but there's one that stood out for
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me, Jacqueline that you mentioned, which was, it's okay
9:16
to fail and ask for help. So, tell me a bit more about
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that, and I don't know if that if you draw and personal
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experience from that. And yeah this was actually
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something I was told really early on in my career and again
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I don't know if this was particularly because I was a
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female coming into this male dominant industry but I was
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always told, you know, if you have any questions asked and
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actually if you are struggling or you're in a situation where
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you have to make decisions, you're not sure what to do.
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Go, we've got Stink, and it's okay to fail.
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So I think when there's early career individuals who are
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starting out, obviously, people are there to try and impress but
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they're quite eager to learn as well.
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So, they may be jumping into things quite quickly and, and
10:15
probably won't have a lot of time to sit and reflect, but I
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think just through learning and going through experience that,
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you know, you're not always going to make the Right
10:26
decision, you're going to have to weigh up priorities, you're
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going to have to look at the wider context of the situation
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and you'll make your best judgment.
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And in that time, if you don't know, all the information, if
10:39
there are things outside of your control, then you may not always
10:43
get it, right? And I think that's just a key
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thing for people to know that you can make the best decision
10:50
or the base judgment, based on what you have, what will the
10:53
collateral you have with you. But It's okay to fail and then
10:59
you learn from it. Essentially, there's the things
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that if you don't learn from a failure, then actually you're
11:07
not improving, you're not taking the accountability or making
11:11
that ownership for yourself, but if you then hold your hands up
11:15
and say, you know, well, you know, this is the best I could
11:18
have done at the time and going forward, I'm going to learn from
11:22
that experience. Then I really think that really
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Gives people the right grounding in terms of really absorbing and
11:30
appreciating everything that happens on a project and there
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will be people there that have been there done that have gone
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through the same situation before and there's no problem
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with kind of seeking out advice and asking others for help
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because they may be able to impart some of their knowledge
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and insights to help guide you. That's great.
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I mean have you been on teams because I think there must be a
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culture where a manager will have a team where it's okay to
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hold up your hand and say I'm struggling with this.
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So I'm not doing one of this. Can anyone help me?
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Well, there will be some teams or some cultures where it's very
12:06
much stay quiet, you know, the finger will be pointed at you.
12:11
If you dare to say you've messed up or something's gone wrong it
12:15
in your experience, have you have you do generally teams work
12:19
in a way where it's okay to talk.
12:20
Talk about failing and to ask, for help.
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To get generally. The teams I've worked in have
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been open. I think it's more people.
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Take on their own self determination that they want to
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do it themselves that they want to be able to make decisions
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without having to rely on others.
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So I think people put the pressure on themselves, but a
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lot of the circumstances or a lot of the kind of environments
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I've worked in win teams. Random projects people have been
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quite open. Mmm, that's really positive 2
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here. I mean, Daisy or Bells.
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I thought you wanted to add to that.
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Yeah, I've found a lot especially like earlier on in my
13:06
career and uh, while you were talking I was having a think
13:09
about whether that was because we were working in person.
13:14
Maybe it was slightly easier. There was definitely a culture
13:18
of being able to ask questions and I remember being told to if
13:24
I was in a meeting with lots of people, then write down those
13:28
questions and we'll, we'll get to them after the meeting and
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And it was an amazing way to learn especially picking up on
13:36
acronyms or, or things that you, you need to learn early on your
13:42
new career. I think from my perspective, I
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think I, I really love that saying and I'm going to quote it
13:50
and not know where it came from now, which is terrible.
13:52
Practice, I know, but there's a strong to everyone does it.
13:56
There's a quote that somebody great says that is if you're the
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smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room and I
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think a lot of people will live true to that nowadays and that
14:09
being in a room where you're challenged and it's okay to say
14:12
that you don't. And something, or that you
14:14
failed at something is actually a strength in today's
14:19
environment because we're, it means, we're constantly pushing
14:21
ourselves and we're constantly learning from our own mistakes.
14:25
I think earlier in my career I probably would have been more
14:28
reluctant to say that I'd made a mistake or I done something
14:31
wrong or I didn't understand it an acronym or something like
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that because of how it might have, it might have resented me,
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but I think as I've progressed through my career, that's become
14:42
more of a strength of Mine where I'm more open and willing to
14:45
share when I don't know something or whether wearing you
14:48
to learn something more. Because it means that there's
14:51
that kind of fell fast culture. I suppose in Industries now
14:55
where it's okay to do wrong because it means that
14:58
ultimately, we're learning from the things that we're doing
15:00
wrong with and we're going to improve them.
15:03
Perhaps it's something that you can do later on in your career
15:05
and your experience because I think you must need a level of
15:07
confidence as well self confidence and confidence in
15:10
your abilities to say, look I've I stop here or something's gone
15:15
wrong to know that. That's something you can learn
15:17
from and not do again. Yeah, definitely.
15:20
I mean, I mean from experience, I've definitely felt that are
15:24
being judged, if I don't know something, and as I said, it's
15:28
taken me a while and awhile. It becoming confident.
15:31
I suppose both in myself and my abilities but also, within the
15:34
industry that I'm working it and I'm sure that if I moved into a
15:36
different industry completely now, I probably still feel a
15:39
little bit the same, but I also think when you kind of Kress
15:44
through, you know, through the industries and through the
15:48
ranks, that it's a responsibility on us to senior
15:50
leaders to then make other people feel comfortable to be
15:54
able to say when they don't understand something, don't
15:57
assume those in the room, know what you're talking about, make
15:59
sure that they've got the opportunity and the freedom and
16:02
the confidence to be able to question if they need to.
16:04
Okay, great and Bell, I wanted to find out about your career
16:12
tip, which is about owning your In development plan.
16:15
So what that's taking personal responsibility, for where your
16:19
careers going and being very proactive about it.
16:21
Is that what you mean by that? Yes.
16:24
So so I took quite an I say unconventional.
16:28
I don't think it was that unconventional and yet.
16:30
And but I did have a slight. I took a different career path
16:36
than some of my, my colleagues. What was your career path?
16:41
So I did a level four Apprenticeship and then decided
16:46
not to progress to the level six apprenticeship and just to jump
16:51
straight towards my child ship after a couple of years.
16:54
Just building up that experience and that technical knowledge in
16:58
order to do that. Why did you decide to do that
17:01
rather than going down the more conventional path.
17:05
For a number of reasons really. I was quite ill during my a
17:10
levels from the stress of studying.
17:12
So I'm not very academic at all and I just have always struggled
17:17
in school. So I spent a lot of time looking
17:20
at the different options and pros and cons of going to
17:23
University or not going to University.
17:27
What can I do instead? What courses can I do?
17:29
How can I build up my CV without this obvious choice of my
17:32
development? And so that was kind of one of
17:37
the reasons I've said own your own development.
17:40
But if you're going to take different paths, Rather than the
17:44
ones that people have said, this is a good option or just to do
17:50
the like, a standard route, go to university to grad scheme, or
17:54
do a level six friendship. If you're going to do something
17:57
different, I just say just research, Predacons what you
18:00
losing by doing that. For example, I know that not
18:04
having a degree as a, is a big loss in my CV.
18:08
It's something that's I'm going to cause challenge in terms of
18:12
applying job applying for jobs and career progression, and that
18:17
was definitely wire. Did Mi CH BP that was one of one
18:23
of the key factors in that. So I guess my big advice is just
18:27
to not take people's recommendations for career paths
18:31
the gospel and that there's loads of different opportunities
18:36
out there to do doing it later in your career.
18:39
If If you've done another career, when you're
18:41
transitioning, which was something we spoke about quite a
18:44
lot at the convention actually. So it's not just about early
18:48
careers, it's about people coming from other careers.
18:50
What lessons, have you learned what the pros and cons?
18:53
You'll get different information based on what other people have
18:57
said, Bachelor your circumstances may be very
18:59
different and therefore it's not always applicable so just do as
19:04
much of your own research as possible in order to find out
19:07
what's going to be best and make sure that you Route to
19:10
progression. That's going to see you.
19:13
So yeah, that was that's what I meant by owning your own
19:16
development plan. So really good advice for a
19:20
profession like project management where you can jump
19:23
between sectors Industries, people do come in, many people
19:28
come into the pressure profession from having a
19:30
previous kind of careers or job roles.
19:35
So it's definitely one of those kind of career paths.
19:40
That is more open to that kind of thing, that I've noticed,
19:43
Jacqueline, what do you think about that?
19:45
Is that do you feel that you need to create your own career
19:48
path or have you had a different experience?
19:53
I definitely think you should create your own career path.
19:56
I mean people will give you advice, they can share
19:59
knowledge, but ultimately you're going to be living your career.
20:04
So you need to take ownership of it, you need to, you may not
20:08
know immediately, what you want to do and you can navigate
20:12
through, you know, from different experiences that will
20:15
help for you to shape where you do want to go.
20:18
But ultimately there will be times where you need to make
20:22
those decisions. Around what you want to do.
20:24
So take it as much ownership around it as possible, that is
20:28
definitely good advice. Okay, you had a, you raised a
20:32
point actually just ahead of our conversation today about knowing
20:39
the difference between a mentor and a sponsor and obviously
20:43
large organizations will give you a opportunity for men to
20:48
ship and perhaps reverse mentoring and I guess is your
20:52
Get more seen you move towards sponsorship, but why do you need
20:57
both and and then how does that work through the different
21:01
stages of your career. So early in my career, I was
21:08
given a kind of deliberately matched with a mentor and found
21:14
that that Mentor provided me with the right guidance and
21:19
advice almost coaching me as well but I mean mentors.
21:23
Don't necessarily always coach but they provided me with that
21:27
purpose of just their knowledge in parting into giving me those
21:32
right guidance for my career development.
21:35
It was only slightly later when I then wanted to progress and
21:41
kind of elevate my career with some promotions and trying to
21:44
put myself forward, did I then really understand the value of a
21:47
sponsor so although both a mentor and a sponsor their
21:51
ultimate goal Is to kind of help you through your career
21:54
development. The difference with the mentor
21:58
is that they were given the advice, whereas the sponsor was
22:00
now more my Advocate, the person that, you know, when I'm not in
22:04
the room or when I need more visibility, that individual
22:09
would be speaking on my behalf and kind of championing My
22:13
Success and advocating why I should be promoted.
22:17
So for me having both the mentor and the sponsor Is quite
22:23
crucial. So one you can kind of navigate
22:28
situations where you may not be the right person with the power
22:32
to kind of influence decisions around promotions, but that
22:35
sponsor can support you in that aspect.
22:38
But then the mentor also there to kind of guide and support you
22:42
through some of the key decisions that you're making in
22:44
your career. And there will be times where
22:47
you need both or them will be times where you really need the
22:50
support of one more than the other.
22:53
And I found the sponsor was really quite key for me when I
22:56
was trying to transition and actually promote myself into a
23:00
career development and acceleration.
23:03
Okay, thank you. One of the things that came out
23:05
of whip and for me was this emphasis on kind of being
23:10
courageous not staying too comfortable?
23:13
Maybe pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone?
23:17
Is that something that you thought about Jacqueline?
23:21
Yes. But there's always times where
23:25
you feel, you know, I'm winning at this, or I'm doing really
23:28
well and you almost, you want to ride on that success and you
23:32
just want to stay in that Comfort.
23:34
But actually, then how much are you pushing yourself on?
23:38
How much are you trying to strive to the next stage?
23:42
And it's only when you start considering actually, I might
23:46
have to, to do something different.
23:48
I might have to push myself and challenge myself a bit more and
23:52
not be So comfortable when I actually really Elevate or kind
23:57
of move around from where I am. So, I think, yeah, really just
24:03
trying to push yourself and, and not necessarily stay in your
24:07
comfort will really help you develop.
24:12
No, I can't remember which speaker it was.
24:13
Who said that it's not until you are uncomfortable or being
24:18
stretched beyond your normal kind of comfort zone that the
24:23
place where you begin to really learn Daisy, is that something
24:28
that you've experienced to that advice that you would give Yeah,
24:33
absolutely. I think I wrote an article
24:36
actually for the APM a little while ago.
24:38
And that was one of the big things that I tried to push
24:40
through was. So while I was in the Civil
24:43
Service, one of the great things, the Civil Service allows
24:45
you to do is to kind of stay within an industry, but move
24:48
around quite freely two different, two different roles
24:51
and try new things. And I think the reason I've got
24:55
the kind of breadth of experience that I have today is
24:59
because working for the Civil Service allowed me to Go from
25:03
post to post if you like and the minute I felt comfortable in a
25:07
role. I thought it was the time to
25:09
move on to challenge myself again and it's one of my big tip
25:13
so suppose. If anybody asked me I'd say that
25:17
that don't get comfortable, push yourself and try new things.
25:21
And the minute you feel like, you know, the job that you're
25:24
doing, it's probably the time to move and put yourself in that
25:27
room with with brighter people again.
25:30
Okay, well, with sucks that you agree.
25:32
With, so anything that you can draw on from your own
25:34
experience? Absolutely.
25:36
I think I was I was giving the advice early in my career to
25:42
experience different sectors as well and maybe that it's a lot
25:46
easier because I working consultancy, but I've spent the
25:51
most the majority of my career in real.
25:53
But then I've done stints in, in other areas like Aviation
25:58
recently been working at a university and getting it
26:02
Variants in those other sectors has been a massive learning
26:06
curve because you don't, you can't just carry on in the same
26:11
mindset, all the structures are different.
26:13
The ways of working in different, the way you people
26:16
talk a different and you learn so much from that experience.
26:20
So, yeah, I'd absolutely agree with not not getting comfortable
26:25
and I think you really push yourself when you're doing
26:27
something different and I always thrive on a challenge and that's
26:31
what I really enjoy. Enjoy.
26:32
So I think that's definitely been being something.
26:36
And as I said, as I said earlier, like I really struggle
26:39
with studying, but pushing myself to do my chart, if I
26:42
found actually really enjoyable and I ended up really enjoying
26:47
that process. So I think sometimes you'll
26:50
learn a lot about things and you might enjoy a little bit more
26:53
than you had anticipated. So I think there's a lot of good
26:56
things can come from from what doing something that you're
26:58
comfortable in. Okay, thanks.
27:01
So, one of the things I wanted to put out there as well as if
27:04
you have any advice for particularly for people,
27:06
starting out quite early on, in their career.
27:09
I mean, you're just really happy.
27:11
You've got a job and you're Keen to prove that you can do
27:15
everything, is their attendance C to say, yes to too many
27:20
things. So Daisy.
27:21
I know something you've mentioned ahead of this was a
27:27
career tip was say, yes, but don't sell yourself.
27:29
Self short. So what do you mean by that?
27:31
Have you got any advice about saying, yes, and when should you
27:35
say no? So Stasia if I start with you
27:37
but if you know the others here, if you want to chip in then that
27:41
that would be great. Yeah, sure.
27:44
Thank you. So I think say yes but don't
27:47
sell yourself short that comes from past experience from the
27:53
sort of my own career. I suppose in that I thought
27:57
saying yes was a strength And you know, doing things for other
28:01
people and kind of sticking your nose in where ever you could to
28:05
get more exposure to more things and more experienced was the
28:08
right way to go as a young professional and to some extent,
28:11
I definitely believe it is. I think if you can stretch
28:14
yourself a little bit further and do more stuff than that's an
28:18
excellent thing to do, but we had a really good chat about it.
28:22
Actually at the weapon conference, with a group of
28:25
girls on the, on the early tips, for three is table where we
28:29
were. Saying you know saying yes is
28:31
great but only if it's benefiting you and to an extent
28:36
is about being selfish and if you're saying yes to things that
28:40
don't offer you anything in return.
28:42
Then why are you saying yes in the first place and exposures
28:46
great? And you know, meeting people and
28:48
networking is excellent way to boost your career in to learn
28:52
new things and move into sectors that you're interested in.
28:56
But if you're just saying yes, and then everything's a half job
28:58
and you're not doing the Things that, you know, you can do well
29:01
anymore, then it's probably not the right thing to do.
29:05
So I think that's where it comes from really, is is say yes to as
29:08
much as you want, but make sure you still do your job
29:10
fundamentally well. And at the end of the day, you
29:13
don't want to feel that you're failing at everything.
29:16
Don't be tomorrow. And I think, well, yeah, if you
29:19
bite off more than you can chew them.
29:21
That's the way it goes, isn't it?
29:22
You do fail, you fail at everything rather than doing a
29:25
few things really well. And that's ultimately the what's
29:28
what's important? Check.
29:30
If you've got any thoughts on that, I have.
29:31
You got any advice about how to say?
29:33
No in a nice way. None of the effective way.
29:38
Yes, I think I think there are ways in which you can just
29:43
relayed that it would be a great opportunity.
29:46
But actually I've got commitments and I really want to
29:49
focus on X Y and Z. So there are ways for you to
29:53
say, thank you, but not right now or it's not the best timing
29:56
and I'd love to consider this in due course in the future.
30:00
And that way, you're still keeping those options open, but
30:03
you're just not committing to it now because, you know, you just
30:06
can't handle that. So I definitely think, you know,
30:11
that there's ways to be diplomatic and then there's if
30:15
you genuinely think that, you know, you're not going to
30:16
benefit from it, then you can be candid and just say but you
30:20
know, this this isn't right for me because it's not in my plans
30:24
for my career growth. Are you an expert now and say?
30:29
Yes, and no to the things that matter, most to you in your
30:32
career, I'd like to think so. Yes.
30:35
So now I've got a young family as well, so I definitely don't
30:38
try to overcome it. And okay, and do too much
30:41
because you do need to prioritize.
30:43
What's important for you, okay? At she talking about priorities
30:47
and just thinking beyond the job, do you have any career tips
30:52
about having boundaries between work and home?
30:57
Jaclyn? How do you manage that?
30:59
Way that works. I think as well, you've got, to
31:03
be honest with yourself, knowing what you can do and what you
31:06
can't do having support, whether that's family, friends or even
31:12
just your employers knowing, you know, what you're prioritizing
31:17
and your commitments. If you have a supportive
31:20
environment around you, than everybody should be
31:23
acknowledging in terms of what you can do and what you can't do
31:26
and you do want to deliver a good job.
31:28
So it's just it's just trying to make people Be as transparent as
31:33
possible to make people know what you can do.
31:35
Yeah. Okay.
31:37
Bells, tolling, you mention is about keeping boundaries sacred
31:42
so the kind of understand you try and keep your weekend to
31:46
Sacred doing it. During tell us a bit about what
31:48
works for you. I think part of this is probably
31:53
come back from from when I was a kid, we always kept Sunday's as
31:57
a family day because we're from a Christian household and that
32:01
was just something that we always did Growing Up and so
32:06
like Sunday's was that one day that we had as a family?
32:09
But also now when I was studying it would have been so easy to
32:14
study every weekend and study in the evenings and it just takes
32:17
over your life and think you just burn.
32:21
So far and get exhausted if you can't switch off.
32:23
So this was something I did when I was studying particularly, I
32:28
knew I needed to do a lot of studying.
32:31
So I'd spend 8:54 in the evening and I got onto and I appreciate
32:37
that. Still quite a lot to do every
32:39
weekday, but then I'd keep my weekends free.
32:43
And so that was my time off. That was my time to recharge to
32:48
spend it with My partner or my friends or my family and I guess
32:56
it depends on on what time sacred for you.
33:00
Like, for me, it's definitely my weekends.
33:02
I try not to log on and to look at that.
33:06
The exception to that is like when I worked weekend, shift on
33:09
real projects, obviously, my weekends are my working time.
33:13
So it's it's about adjusting to what's right for you.
33:19
So it's about understanding Your own boundaries and what you want
33:22
to work, but also communicating that to people.
33:24
So they know that you, they shouldn't disturb you during
33:27
those times, it's kind of making it clear about those boundaries
33:32
Daisy was there anything you wanted to add about kind of
33:35
work-life balance or the boundaries between work and the
33:40
rest of your life? Only that I agree with both bow
33:44
and Jacqueline actually, I think it is important.
33:47
I think we do our best work when we refresh.
33:50
Shhhhht. And if there's anything, I stand
33:54
by its that, if you benefit from, you know, taking a
33:57
two-hour walk in the middle of the day because then you'll come
34:00
back and you'll be able to Channel all that energy back
34:02
into your work. Then then do that.
34:04
I think we're moving away from that culture, where we have to
34:07
be in 4:51. I think most workplaces now
34:10
accepting that people have different commitments in
34:14
different ways that work for them.
34:15
Like you said, Bell. And I think that so long as we
34:19
can Champion that and Of channel that through into into all the
34:23
industries, so that people can work when they feel they do
34:26
their best, their best work. Then that's all that's
34:29
important. And I think covid bought that
34:32
actually, I think covid making people work from home and
34:35
showing the industries that we can be flexible in How We Do
34:39
operate, has actually been a huge benefit aside for all the
34:42
other sort of non benefits that came out of covid.
34:45
I think that's a really positive thing to take away from it.
34:47
Mmm, brilliant. Thank you.
34:49
I just, we've only got A few minutes left.
34:51
But there's something that one career tip that people are often
34:55
given is around networking to get out there to to meet others
35:00
and post covid. I wondered do you still agree
35:04
with that advice? Is it important to network and
35:07
any tips on how to do it well and I kind of non cringey kind
35:13
of enjoyable way as well Jacqueline really anything
35:16
around that you wanted to share I definitely think networking is
35:21
important. You just you never know who as a
35:24
contact, you may need to rely on in the future and I purposely, I
35:31
don't necessarily seek out trying to find new contacts or
35:36
new networks. I just, I'm just me, and when I
35:39
meet people, I think I'm very conversationalist.
35:42
I can talk generally to lot of people so I don't underestimate,
35:47
you know, when you're just About to grab a coffee in the office
35:51
and you meet somebody in the coffee station and you just have
35:55
a conversation with them. They could be from a different
35:57
team, a different discipline you just can't underestimate having
36:01
those kind of conversations and networking with people because
36:06
ultimately, you may need to draw upon their services, their
36:09
techniques and their specialisms in the future.
36:13
Anyone else want to add to that? I'd say one of the things that I
36:20
recommend is just, as Jackie said about the coffee station,
36:24
is just if you get up from your desk and I'm making yourself a
36:27
cup of tea or coffee anyway, often the best way to start
36:31
conversation is to offer the person next to you a cup of tea,
36:35
especially if you work in an environment that's hot desking
36:38
and you might not know the person next to you.
36:40
It's a really good way of starting conversations.
36:43
Especially if you knew when you're an apprentice and they
36:45
graduate. That was one of the easiest
36:47
ways, to to meet new people. I think that's be so nice.
36:52
If you're sitting in someone next to you, you don't know
36:54
offers you, you know, a cup of coffee or cup of tea instantly.
36:59
They've scored 100 brownie points in my books anyway.
37:02
So, anything else we've missed that you got last chance to
37:06
raise. Now, I guess for me, it's just
37:09
be kind and it's one that you get told quite a lot, but when
37:15
you Meet people just be nice. And as I said, making a cup of
37:18
tea or if someone needs some advice or Mavericks bringing
37:24
cupcakes in sometimes, something as simple as that is, is quite
37:29
memorable and there's very unlikely and need to be to be
37:37
nastier. So I think be pleasant where you
37:41
can and be kind as often as you can as well.
37:45
What a lovely To end this podcast.
37:47
There's two messages, and it's to be kind and to be polite, and
37:51
we've got a whole host of other great practical tips that you've
37:54
mentioned. So, it just leaves me to say
37:56
thank you to all of you to Belle, Jacqueline, and Daisy for
37:59
joining us and to everyone who's listening on the podcast today.
38:04
So, thank you. Thanks so much for having us.
38:08
Thank you. Thank you very much.
38:12
Thanks again to bail, Jacqueline and Daisy for joining us and to
38:15
you for listening to this episode of the APM podcast.
38:18
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38:21
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