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From Corporate to Creative Life, The Inspiring Transition with Chris Glaze, E015 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I decided to just chuck in my big corporate job.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I was finding myself at that extreme burnout phase.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Are a lot of these people that are driven by ego?
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Are they happy?
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: How do you keep that positive mindset?
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Oh god, I feel like I'm going to get cancelled by the end of taking me.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: That's why we're here for.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Honest Opinions.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: A month before I left, I got offered my dream job at a different company.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating to hear your story.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: His biggest fear is AI and he's a climate scientist Wow.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: You know it.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I spoke with Chris Glaze, a digital creator from New Zealand, in an excellent and deep conversation regarding his personal journey of leaving corporate life behind and fighting himself as a full-time creator in the visual art space.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Chris is wise beyond his years and we spoke at length regarding his outlook on life, his opinions on art forms, the clash between marginalisation and business decisions, creating art for oneself rather than for others.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Not only that, we touched upon the go-to subjects of today, from social media, nfts and AI to giving back inspirations and one's impact through one's art.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I wish Chris the best of luck in his new endeavours and I was left inspired by his drive for time, freedom and fulfilment each and every day.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Enjoy, chris Glaze.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Hello, that's your name, right?
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: I think it's your Instagram or Twitter.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: It might be your Twitter actually, your kind of slogan, I guess, or there's a saying on there it's enjoying the simple things.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Tell me, what that means.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I think for me it means I don't like life being too complicated.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: So, waking up, having a coffee, feeling the sea on your face when you go for a walk, all those little things that make life kind of beautiful.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: That's it really Just appreciating the small moments, because I feel like in your life all the small moments are what kind of make your life kind of wholesome, whereas the big moments, those are the ones you remember.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: The small moments, the ones that actually are your day to day.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Totally agree.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Small things, build up and build up, and you don't even realise it, but they are kind of what makes your life nice, you know, like seeing your friends for a coffee every day, or like go for a walk with a dog.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: They all kind of add up and compound.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: So is that?
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: life now different than what it used to be.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yes have you always kind of lived that.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I mean I've always wanted to live that, but then I just kind of my like pragmatic, rational brain was like telling me to do all the stressful things because they're what gets you further in life, whereas like the actual person inside of me who was like more artistic, creative person, wanted it to be like slow, doesn't want to schedule, didn't want like a calendar, like you know all of that, like I don't want to be seeking like money at the start of my day, I just want to like wake up and like say hi to my family.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: So, on that, then, tell us a little bit about how you've transitioned into the life you have now, because I think your story is so fascinating and inspirational, I'm sure, for many people watching and listening to this.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: So just give us a rundown.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: You know the last you know bit of an introduction about yourself, but more specifically the last year, two years as you've transitioned from more of a corporate life to more of an artistic one.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm Chris Glaze from New Zealand.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: I've been kind of a photography hobbyist for a very long time, focusing on like travel and then like minimal landscapes kind of thing a bit of wildlife in there as well and then in October last year I decided to just chuck in my big corporate job and then just go all in on in the creative industry.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a bit of a period, an unpredictable period at the moment Don't know what's going on, but which is what you like.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, don't want to schedule, no, exactly, still need some money, though, exactly.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: That's kind of the, that's kind of the hard part.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: It's like sacrificing lifestyle over happiness.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: But then there's kind of like a point when you need a certain level of money to have a happy life, but you also that there's like a line at some point where it's like everything extra doesn't matter if you're getting and doing everything that you want to be doing.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: What was your previous job?
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I was in the telcos, so I was in acquisitions and like project management and kind of wore many hats, community relations, like everything all at the same time.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Essentially we were building cell towers and I was project managing world and then doing all like the negotiations with the new landowners, like legal negotiations, things like that Very intense yeah.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Lots of stakeholders, lots of grumpy people, especially during COVID with like 5G and cell towers.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a vibe because you know so why leave?
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Was it, you know, a calling that you may have inside you for your whole life?
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Or was it just this job?
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily that job in particular.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Like I like the people I worked with, they're all great people.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: You tell me the true story later.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: No, they genuinely were.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Like my boss was someone who kind of it's kind of why I even fell into it in the first place, because he did live in Bali at some point.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: He did, yeah, he did.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, he did Okay.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: He traveled the world a lot like, had a very like probably not traditional lifestyle, so and then I saw him in that world and I was like, okay, I can probably do that too.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: But then it kind of just snowballed a little bit because, like every year that went on and you know you're earning more money or seeing new opportunities the longer you stay in it.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: So, and that's kind of what happened to me I was like, oh, if I just do this for like another year, then you know, we'll have complete financial stability, or like, if I do this for five more years, we'll have like financial freedom or like.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: So it was like those little things like playing in my mind but then realizing that every day I wasn't waking up feeling fulfilled or, you know, wasn't excited, wasn't excited to go to bed, wasn't excited to like get my day started, and that for me, like I love my mornings and waking up in the morning and not loving it, there's something wrong.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: So I was like you know, gotta make a change.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, just packed it all in and, to the despair of like a lot of my family and friends, they were like what the hell are you doing?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: And I was like yeah, I was like oh well, who cares?
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Like I do this for a year, I fail, whatever.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Like who cares?
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Like if you can't take out of your whole life a year or two to try something that you've always wanted to do, like you might as well just go on autopilot.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I resonate with that a lot because I'm still kind of going through that, but I think a lot of people find themselves on autopilot and it sounds that you were almost there, or you were kind of getting to the point where it's like this is is this going to define the rest of my life?
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: How old are you?
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: 31.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, so, yeah, it's kind of that.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: 30 is a great age for that.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Really, we found when we hit 30, it was you know so much more about yourself and what you like and you're more brave, you have a bit more courage with decisions and hopefully you know you have a bit of money behind you, because you've probably spent 10 years working towards that stage.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: So what was the point where you realized or you made that decision that, okay, that is it now?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: I think it was a combination of things really Like we'd also bought a house like the years.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: This is in New, zealand, right?
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: This is in New Zealand.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: So we bought a house in I don't know if you know Auckland, but on the North Shore, and we kind of just bit off more than we could chew in terms of.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: We bought a 1972 Renault which hadn't been touched.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: There was purple carpet, like dusty as ever, but like beautiful, like you know, beautiful direction to the sun, like beautiful like high windows and like so much potential.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: So me and Joanna and my partner were like you know, we're going to give this a good crack and just do a massive DIY.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: So we were doing that DIY, having, you know, no experience in it, plus both running like pretty intense jobs, and then my hobby with photography on the side was kind of just dwindling away and I was like, yeah, trying so hard to keep it in there and like claw it back, that I, yeah, I ended up pulling pen on all of it and I was just like I was finding myself at that like extreme burnout phase where I was like I don't even think I'm going to enjoy photography again and I was like I don't.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the scary part, right?
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: So you're like, ooh, that's when you need to make a change, when the things that make you happy start not making you happy anymore.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: That's when you need to like, like, pull pen, you know.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: So that's what I did Big call.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: But you know, no regrets.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Why Bali?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Why Bali?
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: We kind of intended to move here and like pre COVID and then COVID happened and then we got stuck in New Zealand.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: So like, but Bali, I mean, I love, I love the people here.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I think they're the nicest people ever.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: I genuinely like.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: When I first came here, I was like, why is everyone so nice?
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: What do they want?
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, you know, like you're scamming me.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: And then I realized like no people are actually that nice, Genuine, Like really genuine, Um, and then I don't know, the landscape is really nice, Like the volcanoes and the beaches and all that kind of thing, but also just like the density of creators here.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: You don't really get that anywhere else in the world, Like I've tried to scratch my head and think of places and then, like you know, like Tulum comes to mind in Mexico and then, like you know, like Bali's kind of like for creators photographers, videographers, artists, like painters, that kind of thing.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like LA for actors.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: You know, you know, yeah, this is a good analogy.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the only other place I might say would be similar, very different in many ways, but similar in terms of the density of creators.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Brooklyn or New York?
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's a, there's, there's an incredible amount of artists and creators over there.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, every time I go, I get inspired by something, for sure, and so many people.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, totally agree with you by it.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: One reason we moved here as well.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Um the, the inspiration here that you can garner from just being out and about and meeting people and um yeah, there's a crazy energy, eh, yeah.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: And you can't put your finger on it.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Definitely, the the culture helps and the local friendliness helps because you you're you feel so comfortable and um, you feel so happy to be in, immersed in that culture and trying to integrate into it as much as possible.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: You know, back in the UK or New Zealand, um, I doubt you would feel happy to go walking on the street and be comfortable talking to local people.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can do it, but it's not.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: it's just not the same.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: You just wouldn't.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: You just wouldn't, you would never even think about it.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Because this person talked to me yeah, like just it was also when you're in your home countries.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like we are our countries a little bit of respect because, like, when we're there we're not necessarily being our best selves.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Right, when we're here we're putting ourselves out there more, we're trying harder to like, see opportunities and do that thing, Whereas when you're home you're like mm you know yeah.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Very good point, and I think about how much of the UK I've seen.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: It's.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: It's a lot, but it's it's not.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Like you know.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: I should travel the UK before I start.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: See it like, see it as though you're not from there.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, good point, but it's really hard to do that because you know it is every time I go back and I'm comfortable because my mum won't be watching this, but I just miserable.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I don't want to be there yeah.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I'm there to see family and hopefully some friends if they're around.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I kind of feel the same with the UK.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I grew up there as a kid, so, yeah, it's definitely not so much with New.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Zealand.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Hey, not so much with New Zealand you don't feel that I love New Zealand.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I like I love it Like I from a, from a like a landscape photographer perspective as well, like it's it's on drugs that place.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: But I do really like you know, like the culture in New Zealand, like the lifestyle, the boats and barbecues, and like summers and you know, winter snowboarding and that kind of thing.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Growing up in the UK, I lived in like a little village, so when abouts it's?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: It's called Weaverham, weaverham, weaverham, weaverham, weaverham.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: So it's like here we go.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's between Liverpool and Manchester, but in Cheshire, okay.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if you know like Northwich.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Northwest.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and like it's just a completely different lifestyle.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I think you know when you, when you're from somewhere that small, your dreams become smaller and things.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I know that a lot of places are guilty of it, but there's a lot of like tall poppy in those kind of tall poppy syndrome kind of what's that.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: You know like New Zealand's got a problem with it too, but like when you know like poppy fields, like all the poppies grow to a certain level and then like one will stick out and they'll like chop down kind of thing, yeah.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: So like you kind of don't want to be better than everyone, anyone else.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: You kind of want to be the same as that anyone else, because you're offending people by ascending, you know.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Or they'll go out there and we talked about this earlier.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: They'll go out of their way to to bring you down to their level, to make themselves feel better.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually that's a lot of the on the humor side as well.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Your mates would just take the if you're different from them in any way.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I had this all the time.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Still, still get it.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Just, your mates will just absolutely have you for being different 100%.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's, that's.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard that analogy before.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: It's kind of cool.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: So where did photography fit into this?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Why, I mean, would you say your photographer or videographer or kind of I don't know, because I like you do both.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I started off as a photographer and I was that for a long time not well, like on the side kind of thing, but then this year it's kind of been more about video so like, and I've been enjoying it a lot because I think I was like I was shooting for so long just doing like landscapes, landscapes, landscapes and like.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Then coming into the video world, you've got like more freedom in terms of like adding music and like incorporating different, like feelings.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: you know, like it's hard to like, not feel like a cinematic video versus.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You can easily just overlook a photo, you know.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: You can just be like you're not looking to it, you know.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: So I don't really want to put a label on what I'm doing.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I just kind of, I'm just a creative person and you know, I feel like we all kind of need to label ourselves as what we are in the creative world, whereas, like I'm just a creative person, I'm just a creative person I kind of feel like sometimes, sticking to one thing getting I just start feeling a little bit claustrophobic.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: You know, or like even like, oh okay, you're a photographer, what do you shoot then?
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: And it's like, okay, I shoot, you know, or landscapes, or someone's, like I shoot portraits, and then you're kind of like you know, limiting where you can go with it, because everyone feels like they need to like niche themselves.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: But then you know, like I niche myself for a certain period of time and then I get incredibly bored and then I drop that and then try something else.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I feel like it's totally okay.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's okay.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: My only reservation with that philosophy is how to master something.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: If you don't you know, dive into it all the time.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: You know a lot.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: And the other side of it and I have really had much experience with the, the business side of that kind of style and niche, or you know, there's differing opinion.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I've put videos out there before and people have agreed or disagreed with me with style and genres and picking one and sticking with it or but I suppose what's the intent behind that.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and actually I think it boils down to what do you enjoy doing?
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: If you enjoy doing a bit of everything, then that's going to come through in all of your work.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, you know, I guess there is a point where if you try and do too much, you may not do one thing that well.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: But I think if you're good enough and you just have that passion, then who's to say?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: That's it, and I feel like a lot of that comes from being like.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: You know you say like, from like, a business perspective, almost.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Like if you don't niche down, like, it's going to be harder to get business.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: However, like, where I'm at, like I couldn't care less.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: You know, like, if I got business or didn't get it, like, I kind of want to do it for the love of it instead of instead of like maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot there, I don't know.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: But like, if you're niching down purely so you're more recognizable to a client, then are you really doing what you enjoy?
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: You know, like, and if you're denying yourself from trying the new things, you might not f you might think you like this one thing, try something else and then go oh sh-.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Like, that's way, way more enjoyable for me, you know so and I do believe most let's take client work.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: If they're able to see how passionate you are about whatever it is that you do and you don't care so much about fitting into their boxes, I honestly think that comes through and people are more attracted to that.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, obviously there are a lot of companies out there that would just need this thing.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: We need this box tick, you know, just find one of a thousand that can do it.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: But I think the good brands, the brands with integrity and vision and wanting to tell a story, with whatever their visuals they want to put together, I think they can see through that and they want to hire people.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Finn's a great example, right, you know Finn's a good friend of yours.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he comes up with ideas and wants to do something in the creative space and then he finds pitches that to brands rather than the other way around right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not pitching to brands for what they want.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: It's here's my concept.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm going to do, or want to do.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Do you want to be part of it?
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think is.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I just think that's such a refreshing outlook though.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: But that that's.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: It goes exactly to my other point.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, if you can, if you can do everything and then pitch things to in different ways.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Like you know, a good pitch is a good pitch.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I know what you mean and I do agree with you.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not good enough to do loads of different things, and it depends.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I guess you are like you look at your, your, your stuff and just go well, I couldn't put a label on what he does, which I think is amazing, Because no one like I can't.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: I'm so bored of identity and labels and you are this and that's.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: This is who I am.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: This is no, it's just.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: This is my stuff.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: This is what I want to put out into the world.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Make of it as you wish.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Isn't that what art's all about?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly so, yeah, when it, I think it gets a little bit crowded when you start putting money into the frame.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: That's it and that's what I I feel like.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: For me it's a bit of a sensitive topic because that's what I've kind of been running away from, like I suppose my, my opinion towards that like it kind of is generated by people that purely use their passion and then use that as their medium for money.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I don't think they need to be, don't think you need to like make money out of your passion.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: You know like, if you can, ideally I would love to like have passive income from something and do photography for fun.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: You know like that would be fun, like maybe not fun, but but but stronger than that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: But like my, my dad, for example, full time musician.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Back in the day he's, he's still a full timer.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: What instrument Bass and guitars, but he this is bass.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Bass, it's love.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Of the bass, it's love of the bass.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Such a good movie.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love you man.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: He, you know like he was very passionate about music.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: He still is now.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: So I don't want to make it sound like he's he's not, but like when you're doing your weekends to make cash from gigging, it does change your relationship with a bit.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my mom, on the other hand, she's.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: She's like a teacher.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: She was big in the finance world way back when and then she decided to throw it all in and become a teacher.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: So I'm like kind of looking at her like wow, oh no.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And then I find out she's like 30, 31 doing that too, and I'm like oh wow, really, yeah, that's amazing.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: But she, yeah, she's a primary school teacher now and she, she does it obviously for a job, but she absolutely loves it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say my dad doesn't, because he is absolutely the most passionate person about music as well.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: So but you know, like I feel like just it changes your relationship with something.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: For example, you, you can't make money from your photos, right?
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Say, you're not getting any jobs.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Do you start then having an issue with your craft because you would start resenting it Kind of like you know like your relationship with your with your camera.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say it's like your girlfriend, because it's that'd be weird.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: But but wait, where was I going with this?
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: But like you know, like, for example, in a relationship of this, like financial instability, you know like that's like the biggest breaker up of relationships.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: You know like, no matter how much in love those people are, if you throw in that element, it it like clouds it up a little bit.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: So is that because we give too much emphasis on the importance of money?
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: I think so, 100%.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Why is that Is it?
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I'm just thinking out loud.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Is that because we're, we live in fear, right, the fear of not having enough money to survive?
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: essentially, they're not having enough money and the fear of being judged, like those two, yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, judged is.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: It's the status game again, isn't it?
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: I used to have a lot of friends.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Because they're not, I wouldn't necessarily call them my friends anymore.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: We've drifted apart for these types of philosophies.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, friends not like friends, friends but people you know, more like acquaintances.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: I guess they're solely driven not by the fear of survival, more because you meet people who don't earn that much and they're driven by I need to pay the bills.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: That's different.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: The people I don't necessarily have much time for is I want to earn so much money because I want to be better than that guy, or I want to have more money than them, or I want to buy a certain thing which I think is going to.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I'm telling myself it's going to make me feel better, but it doesn't.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Ego, basically.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's the root of all of it.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I've always I've not been a very egotistical person.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: I know that having a big ego can really help in like driving what you want out of life, but at the same time, like for me, I find like where I'm strong with is like compassion and empathy, like that kind of space, and I feel like if you use that in a healthy way, like it's much more powerful than ego.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: You know, and you actually, if you're leading with that, you're getting much more like wholesome results than just you know.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: A lot, of, a lot, a lot of these people that are driven by ego.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Are they happy?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: You know, like I'm sure some of them are, but like, do you feel happiness?
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Is that what you think about when you think of someone like that?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Do you?
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like, oh, they're like whole.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: you know, like Absolutely not, exactly so yeah, I think, I think that ego can be utilized for I mean.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Take social media for example we might touch upon this more later, but there's a reason why people, artists, photographers, whoever post on social media.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: It's not, it's not because they enjoy the act of posting, that it's not that they enjoy putting something, just putting something out there because they want something back.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Right that, I'm the same, you're the same, but there's a little bit there's, as long as you're aware of that and control.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Controlling that, yeah, or utilizing that type of your, that part of your ego to to for the better, right.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: For progress and for evolution.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: You need to have.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: You need to have some form of ego to to help give you confidence and like and push you in places that you wouldn't necessarily push yourself if you're just you know.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: The negative of compassion and empathy is just becoming a people pleaser.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: So if you're always doing that, you're never going to put enough time on yourself.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: So in order to put time on yourself, you kind of need to value yourself more, which then comes back to like ego.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: So you know like it's a definitely a balance.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Life is tough, isn't it?
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you're an agreeable person.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: You would put put yourself in there.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, we don't want to be able to do boxes, but when you do, like personality tests you're kind of more the agreeable people pleaser type 100%.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, this is what I've been having an issue with is like I am my, this, my last year, has been kind of me learning how to set boundaries, which I've not done before.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I've always just kind of people pleased because it's it feels nice, but then you end up resenting everyone around you so like that's not nice.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: So then I, you know, I've been, I've been setting boundaries and then I'm in this weird, like cutthroat stage where I'm just like you know, like you know, like that, a little bit aggressive and I'm like, oh, I don't know if that's the right way, but like, in order to like to like learn how to not people please, you kind of need to like set some aggressive boundaries.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, maybe not intentionally, but maybe it's not the right way to do it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: You need to make that, that need to jump first be a bit for a little bit and then maybe rain it in just six months of being like easy.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: That must be so much fun yeah.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: And then you say sorry, and yeah, yeah, yeah, I love doing these.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: This is just fun for me because just chatting to other creatives Even even in such a because it's still a very niche industry you know that many people that do it and markets still pretty small there's, there's a there's a pleasure for me in finding so many different types of people and different ways of thinking about their own work.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: They all have their own journeys and stories.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Some guys have had on here to treat it purely as a business.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: It is just money.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: They'll do anything to get get that money.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Some people were just like yourself just art first, whatever comes comes, and then there's, you know, a whole array in between.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: So it's fascinating to to hear your story and how that shapes your thought process.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Now, right, when did you start picking up a camera?
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: How long we mean.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: God, I like I've always kind of been interested in it.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: I did it at high school.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: I did like photography in like fifth form, sixth form, which is like I don't know what that is for you guys Like year 12, 15, 16.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And I like I did it.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: It was all like dark room kind of stuff and I was like this I don't want to do dark room, that's like really late.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Like at that time, you know, I was like this is a whole lot of work for just like you know, like for something that probably turns out Exactly so like we had to like do over the year we had to all these boards, like photo boards, and me also like I didn't hand in homework, like once in my time at school, like I was not someone who was good at that kind of stuff, like I'm a smart guy.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I just cannot.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I cannot.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: My organizational skills are terrible Deadlines.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I'm also ADHD, so I was just like not really, not really into it.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: So then, with photography I am.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: I didn't do anything all year, like the whole year, up until the final week when we had to hand in our four boards and everyone was like, what are you doing?
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, it's easy, I just have to take some photos and then edit them in Photoshop.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: And then I ended up getting the highest marks in the class and I shot the actual photos like two or three days before it was due.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: But even at that time I was like I didn't feel like I was good at it.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I was, I just didn't understand how everyone else was so bad at it.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: You know, like you know, like that sounds awful.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: No, like I think every day.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, that's kind of where it started.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: And then I went, was going to do the second year they didn't do in my final year of schooling they didn't offer photography, so they needed art design.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: So I joined that class and then, like first week back of the year I went to the career counselor and was like they were like what do you want to do?
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: And I was like I want to be a photographer, like my dream was to be like a like a nature photographer, like David Attenborough kind of stuff.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And then my brother, he's a marine scientist now but his, his goal was to be like Steve Owen, so we were going to do this, like you know this, this group thing, and he kind of held his end of the bargain in terms of what he does now.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: But like that was my dream.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: And the the careers lady was like, okay, so average income for a photographer is 30,000 New Zealand dollars.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Are you going to be okay with that?
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Considering, like these are your rent costs, these are the costs of life?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, okay.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, well, what else could I do?
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: And she's like I don't know, what else do you enjoy?
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: And I was like well, I enjoy going to open homes, like you know what an open home is.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: So then I ended up doing like economics and business.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, Then did a business degree, a property degree at university, like property law like all that kind of thing.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: And then fell into the property industry pretty hard and then completely, photography took a backseat, completely like, didn't even pick up a camera until me and Joanna went traveling, which is, you know, I already had that corporate job.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I was like 21, 22.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: And I was like this is lame, get me out of here.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: So then we just kind of sold up everything and went traveling for like three over three years.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: And that's when I picked up the camera again and I was like holy moly, like this is awesome, you know so yeah, and that was so.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: when did you travel for?
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: three years.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: So I was.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: I think we left when I was like 22.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: And then got back at like 25.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Where's your, where's your, where's the favorite place you've been to?
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, Latin America is where we spent most of our time.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I spent like a year and a half there.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I'd have to say I don't know if it's because I've got like an emotional connection to it, because my partner's she's Kiwi but her family's from Peru, she's from Peru, but like Peru was like the loomy out of the, out of the water, like the landscapes, the people, the diversity, the food, like everything.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I was just kind of like I felt like I was on drugs.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: When I, when I landed, when we got off the plane, I was just I couldn't fathom the fact I was seeing like desert at the beach.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I was like how like mental, you know what do you mean?
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Like big deserts, like like dunes and like dunes, but like desert, like desert, desert for as far as I can see.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And then you're like meeting with the ocean.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I just think from New Zealand, like when, it's just like rainforest and like green and then going that's like so dry and arid, Like yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: And the other country I suppose for me is Brazil.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I love Brazil.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I love the culture.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a lot of family there as well so like yeah that definitely helps our experience.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Cool Get a.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Get a true local experience.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: So, speaking of family, how, how did your mum take you know, given that she's kind of walked in your shoes, yeah, when you decided to leave your your corporate life and go full time creative?
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: What was her Cause?
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: I imagine most of the your family and friends were like what are you doing?
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I mean she got.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: she got it the first time with the, with the I was leaving to go traveling.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: She was like hell, yeah, like that's the best thing you can ever do for yourself.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: You know your job can wait.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: You're smart, you'll pick something else up.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: And then this time around, she's like you sure this is what you want to do?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: You know, like you've worked so hard to get to where you are, are you sure you want to?
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Just, she's like I get it, but are you sure you want to do that?
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Like you know, like selling a house.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: You know it's quite an emotional journey.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: And then, like also like I suppose for context, like a month before I left, I got offered my dream job at a different company which I was working through with my mom and Joe and my partner.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: We were trying to figure out, like, whether I should take it, and it was like incredible money.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: It was like brand new EV shares in the company in an emerging market.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Like everything that I would have you know should have dreamed of was that role you know, and I felt like I'm not like a extremely spiritual person Maybe I am, I'm not sure I don't really know what that means, but like I was like, is this like the universe going?
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Like how much do you really want this?
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Like, how much do you really?
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: want to go into the creative space Like here's what you wanted.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Is this satisfying you, you know?
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Is this what you know?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: You have to make that sacrifice now and I talked to Joanna about it and she was like you can't take it, you shouldn't do it, like you're going to be miserable.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to put up with you.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to put up with you, don't laugh.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: But I, you know, like I went through the stages of like all the interviews and like everything getting off of the job.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I felt like I was messing them around a bit, but I was like I also needed that closure for myself, because you don't have that opportunity just to rise out of nowhere all the time.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I just decided not to do it.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Mum, on the other hand, like she fully supported what I was doing, but she was like, why don't you just do it for a year?
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: And I was like, if I have to do it for a year, one more time, like where am I going to end up?
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: You know, like your, your your youth fire starts getting smaller.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Like your drive to like start new things.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: What I want this year is different to what I want next year.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: I was scared during COVID at the start because I was like in two years am I still going to want to, like, go backpacking?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: You know, because I want to right now, but in two years am I going to want to do that?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: And then people like, oh, it doesn't really matter, because if you don't want to do it it doesn't.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: You know at the time it doesn't really matter.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, well, if I don't do it, then I never get that experience, you know.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: So like that matters, yeah.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, like family completely supported my decision.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: They they completely wouldn't have done made the same choice, but I think they respected the why.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, like what I was saying, I was like if I, if I want to do that again, I'll just do it again.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like that's a position that you could go back into, even after a few years away from it right, yeah, what?
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: What was the?
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: What was the driving force behind this medium in terms of photography, videography, the creative space, visual aesthetics, art, what?
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: What is it about that that makes you happy?
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I think like.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Aesthetics really play a really important part of my life.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Like it makes me feel so calm seeing nice pretty things.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I know that sounds like a really shallow answer, but like no, not at all.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: That's why people love art.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a way that makes me feel, makes me feel like peaceful, you know, like seeing beautiful things and presenting beautiful things makes me I don't know.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Just give me the warm fuzzies.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Like I'm not the most.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes me froth, Frothing it, but I'm not really like the most technically minded photographer, like I'm really not like people will ask me about, like settings, and like I genuinely like I couldn't care less.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Like you know, how did you do this?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Because I just did it.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: You know like how do you make the?
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: What made you like pick that color and I was like because it looked pretty.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: And you know like very much I hate the mechanics of photography.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: I think some people love that technical like you know they're the tripod and cargo pants, kind of kind of photographer.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: You know like have the walking stick still.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and all the things attached to their belt and the backpack and yeah.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, there's like two breeds, right?
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely wouldn't fall under that.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I feel like a bit of a novice sometimes when I'm around people like that and then I look at their photos and then I look at mine and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't matter how you get there and I say this to people all the time because I get.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, even one of my last photos I posted on Instagram because I you know, we'll talk about social media in a minute but kind of get different experiences from different platforms, whether it's YouTube, instagram, tiktok, twitter, everyone's.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: They're completely different communities and it's fascinating.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Tiktok is the one where I get 20 messages a day going what equipment do you use?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: What camera should I buy?
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: What settings was it did you use for this photo?
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: It's like actually one of the last ones on Instagram.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: I got that comment, sorry.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Like I mean just like a load of heart failing a million times and passion, yeah, I mean.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: So I can't.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: I mean I have to go back to the Lightroom to give you the specific settings, but it doesn't matter that you should be asking those questions, In my opinion, shouldn't?
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: be asking those questions.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, a lot of people, especially beginners, they'll be all about the gear right, all about the equipment, all about the technical side of it, which is great, and I'm absolutely not dismissing that at all.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Like you said, there's different people for different needs.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: But when you're, when you're starting out, I could always try and get yourself more towards your start, the more the vision, what you're trying to get out of something.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: I genuinely feel like there's no right and wrong way, like if you're someone that enjoys the gear and the technical side of a camera and like how the camera works and all that stuff.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: You know, like cool, go for gold, like enjoy, but like that's genuinely not for me, like I, the camera for me, is the thing that gives me the ability to capture what I want to see.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: You know, like it's kind of like the part of photography that's not necessarily the thing that I enjoy the most is the specific camera.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: You know, like I enjoy using it to get what I want, though you know if that makes sense.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: What are the biggest challenges that you find in in that process, picking up camera to getting to a point where you you're happy with the output?
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, post production at the start was probably the most challenging thing, but now I absolutely I almost like preferred post production aspect than the actual shooting side of things with video like Premiere Pro, davinci, all that kind of stuff, like speaking Chinese for me.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: You know like I find it incredibly difficult.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I'm the same.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: It's awful.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: It's awful and I know, I know it'll get easier and I know you'll get like, but then, attention span wise, like you know, like it's very hard for me to do things that I'm not interested in, because then I just don't have the stimulation that I that's needed.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: You know, like the whole ADHD thing, like I'm not, when I'm not feeling stimulated, I don't want to do it Like, and you keep putting it off, putting it off, putting it off, and then you never excel because of that one little thing in your whole.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: You know workflow that you aren't perfecting is screwing up everything else.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: So you know, like I feel, like I feel completely comfortable with like knowing what colors I want to like present and like knowing my compositions and like all of those kind of things.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Like, literally like do not stress out about them at all.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: When it comes to like editing video, though, that that's where I even like the settings.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: The settings of video is, like, completely different to camera.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: I thought, at the start that I had to like underexpose everything, and then realized no, no other way yeah the way.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I learned by failing many times.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Even now like yeah, but that's interesting because I'm the same.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Can you get?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: What would you?
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: What would you advise in that respect to beginners who are, you know, venturing into the photography, filmmaking, the creative side of visual arts?
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: What if you could think of maybe one or two kind of pieces of vice that you've either learned?
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Along the way, or that you would?
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: You at least dictate to them.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: What would you say?
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Like, don't be discouraged by your inability to create what you're seeing in your head, because you can get there.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: You just need to to learn how to.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: You know, like, you're most likely going to be rubbish at the start, and if you give up at the start because you think you're rubbish, then you're just never going to get to where you want to be so like.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I suppose that leads on to not comparing yourself with others, whether that's someone who's, like, five years ahead of you or someone that started on the same day.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Like, everyone's journey is different.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: So, like, finding beauty in people's other people's work, rather than jealousy, is so important.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, if you're running around being a jealous person, you're not.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: You're not going to be feeling good, you know like, and you need to feel good in order to create how you want to create.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe not for others, but for me, you know like, if I'm running on negative energy, I'm not going to be producing the same stuff.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: So, and then?
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: What else?
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Don't worry about people's like people judging you like because everyone is so obsessed about themselves that they're not even they're not even critiquing your work.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: You think that?
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: you almost feel like when you post a photo.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you're in the middle of like a spotlight stage and everyone's like you know, like no everyone's just like no one cares.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you get to a point where you are in the spotlight, that means people are loving what you're doing, exactly.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: You get to the point where people are critiquing you.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: That means that you're relevant enough.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Anyway.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: They're interested yeah.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: So you know, how do you, how do you keep that positive mindset and you don't let the negative thoughts kind of take over or do you just let it be?
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: You know you talked about morning routine and we're the same like absolutely love our mornings, try and try and stick to a routine as much as possible just to kind of set the day off.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: But what is your morning look like?
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: And how do you, how do you kind of dispel any of that negative, negative?
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: thought I mean like for me, I need.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I need a calm morning.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: If I wake up to a phone call, that's a stressful situation, my days ruined, like someone like I pick up my phone, someone's like this, which is what my days used to be like.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: It really screws me up for the whole day.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: So I need to like wake up early, like 637 o'clock, you know like slow.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: The earlier you wake up.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: For me the better, because I really like the morning I love going for coffee with like my friends or anyone who's keen.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: I feel like a really important part to keep in a positive headspace is like literally just surround yourself with people that make you feel happy, like your.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: If you're surrounding yourself with people that you're not really in tune with, you're going to feel out of place.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: If you're going to surround yourself with people that are negative, you're going to take on that, that energy as well.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Like you're allowed.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: You're allowed to, like you know, have negative days with your friends.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: You're allowed to think.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: You're allowed to do all that, yeah, but like just surrounding yourself with your tribe, I think is for me, but the biggest, the biggest help in me growing creatively.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how have you found that in Bali?
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Is it being difficult or easy?
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: to find that.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: No, that's the crazy thing with here.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of different personality types within the creative space, but I feel like you don't have to have that like foundation chat about like who you are as a person, because everybody has already you know, everybody's already here, Everyone's already taken those steps to invest time into themselves, to try something that's not traditional Like yeah, there's already so many things in common.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I suppose then, finding your like tribe tribe that that can be the hard part, but for me it happened really like organically, and that kind of just happened from like Instagram, which is weird Really.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so people I'd met along the way via Instagram, oh cool, but I don't know, it's weird.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: You know like like Finn and.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Kyle, and then, like Ella and Ash, they're two Kiwis.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Ella and Ash.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I think I've met them.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: She's a photographer.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: She focuses on like NFT stuff, okay.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: And then Ash, he's an FPV pilot.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I know them.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I've seen them on Instagram.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're really good people.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: But like, yeah, all just kind of all just kind of came at the same time and yeah, it's crazy.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: But then that brings me back to, like Bali.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know what's happening here, man.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: Like it's the energy.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: There's just too many coincidences for things to like be coincidences.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you just find you know like so many little things happening and you're like that can't be a coincidence, or am I looking too much into it All the jujus man.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Can you give me an example?
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Literally like last week we were me and Finn were talking about like studio spaces and like how cool would it be one day to like open a studio, all this kind of stuff, and that like four hours later someone was offering us a studio to rent off them, you know like cool, like that's bizarre Like that.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: No one's ever offered me a studio to rent in my life.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Why does it happen the same day?
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: I'm literally talking about it's like.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: It's like a Facebook algorithm.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: You know when you like, say something out loud and it appears on your screen.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: It is weird.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: That is weird.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: That happens a lot.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: It's so strange.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I swear they're listening or something.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: I don't mind it.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: You know like everyone has all these like privacy issues and like it's not a person that's listening to you.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: You know like no one's getting to know your nitty gritty, but at least if they can offer you a product that might actually be really good for you Like also to get away from that.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: you'd have to live on on a castaway island.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: You'd have to be a recruit, you'd have to be an absolute recruits, because recruits Recruits.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: You'd have to be an absolute.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: You got this.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Take three.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: You'd have to be an absolute recluse, recluse To yeah to do that.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: So I have no problem with it and just knowing that, knowing that that happens, is okay, because you know it's the people that don't know and then they can find themselves in trouble or just get really angry when they find out about it.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: It's just data mining.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: It's the way we the world is these days Exactly.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: It's got pros and cons, you know.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: It's not going to.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: It's not going to go away, so you might as well like be okay with it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: What is, what is your purpose with bloody hell?
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I feel I kind of left that to you know an hour in to ask that kind of question.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, there has to be an underlying question about that with yourself, because you've left a you know what you've learned, you know what you've left and gone into.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: You know says to me that your previous life didn't give you purpose.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: So now I know you're still kind of new into it in terms of less than a year doing it full time.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: But how, how has that shaped your purpose essentially?
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: And if you could pinpoint what your purpose is, I'm kind of like I'm kind of 50-50 there sometimes because I don't know like I feel, like as humans we really we really think we're too special of a species that we all have a purpose, like a lot of the time, like I think it's.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: I think life is so beautifully pointless that you have a time period where you can literally just do the things that make you happy, and one of those things, like for me, is making and changing other people's lives.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Like you know, I really enjoy things like that, you know, like teaching people or helping out with their mental health, or like making them wake up and and and feel like not alone, like as a purpose, I don't know.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: It brings me joy, but I genuinely think a lot of the time like I don't think we have necessarily a purpose in life.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Let me rephrase it what is the reason that gets you out of bed in the morning?
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: What's the reason?
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Well, first coffee.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Mine's seeing my dogs Like I'll jump out of bed.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I'll go and say good morning to the dogs.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: And you're still asleep and feel your force.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I actually wake up about 15 minutes before her, so I get the dog time in just before the wife's time Sneak it in yeah, yeah.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know like what gets me up in the morning.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I mean metaphorically.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: I don't necessarily mean literally yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Just, I think, creating change in a world that can, like seem full of so full of negativity, I think bringing some positivity and into it is so important.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: You know, like so many people living so many different lives around the world and inspiring others, I'd love to just be one of those people that inspires others to to listen to their heart, not their head, all the time.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: You know the head is important, but like lead with this but then think with this.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: You know like you don't have to do the things you don't want to do.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: You know like you don't have to.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: No one's making you.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: You know, like strip back the pressure that you have on yourself to succeed, because if your version of succeeding and someone else's version of succeeding don't line up, then it's kind of irrelevant.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: You know, like Just giving people like that support to make the decisions that are really really, really hard to make.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: You know like I love doing stuff like that and also just creating beautiful things.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I think we live in such a world of negativity, but also abundance.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Abundance in everything.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Abundance in resources, materials, education, people.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: There's opportunities.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: We live in a world of abundance and that can be very damaging because it's distracting everything.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: We do this, do that, spend, consume, consume.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Dopamine hits this that want to do this and want to do that.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: But the plus side of that is you don't have to do things you don't want to do.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: That's it Right.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: You have to be able to use that and utilize that, and you it's like a wholesome hedonism, you know.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Catchphrase for the podcast.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Wholesome hedonism.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Hedonism or hedonism.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: You just made it up.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: I just made it up.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Well, you definitely even not knowing your audience, you definitely inspire a lot of people.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: So, you should be very proud of that and thank you.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Your stuff is amazing.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, you touched upon there.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: You touched upon success and how different people kind of view that word and what it means to them.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: How, how do you define success for yourself?
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: So at this point in your I mean for me personally, like it successes always kind of been just time, like having the time to do the things that you want to do.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: You know, I feel like when I, when I sum up kind of what I've been doing and why, it's all related to like having time to, for example again I'll say it again it sounds like I'm obsessed with going for coffee, which maybe I am, but like having the time to go for a coffee like like true success, or like having a time, like having the time to like spend with your girlfriend or spend with your, your mom and your dad or your brother, like having the time to follow through with your passions, you know how much time?
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: In terms of, like you know, when you're working a nine to five Monday to Friday, you genuinely have no time like everyone's, like you got weekends.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: You don't have weekends.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Your Sunday is gone because you're either hungover or you need to, I don't know.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Do life admin?
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, saturday, you really only have one one full day where you can like split your time between different things, and Sunday is difficult.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Not to think about Monday, right?
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Sunday is a write off for me because I'm in like waiting mode for Monday.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Like you know, like that feeling.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: There's nothing quite like that feeling.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Like, um, but yeah, when you're, when you're living in that world, you, you genuinely don't have time to do the things that you want to do, and everything feels like an obligation, like even seeing your friends and seeing your family, you almost feel obligated to do it, Whereas, like you know, it does.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: I suppose that whole time thing does relate back to money.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: You know like you need to have a certain amount of money to be able to have the time to do things.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: So, like, money is a factor.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: It's not just all airy fairy like, of course, but you like to have enough To have the time you also need to be able to sustain your lifestyle.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: So, you know, having all your bases covered in terms of your shelter and your food and all that covered and being able to live how you want to live, but having the time to live the way you want to live.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: If that makes time freedom, time freedom.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: At least have the freedom of choice.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: That.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: I want to spend my time working, or I want to spend my time working, right, yeah, yeah, that's a very agreeable definition of success.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's difficult to define, isn't it?
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Because, like how much time or what does time freedom actually mean?
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: But I totally understand what you mean.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: That I think does link in with money freedom.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Because you have to have the freedom.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: You have to have that amount of freedom where you can choose, to have the choice, if that makes any sense.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: For example, some people if you link it back to money, like some people might be completely happy living in a tent on the beach for their whole life and, you know, eating fish, you know, but like, for me, drinking coffee, drinking coffee, but for me, like there's a certain lifestyle that I enjoy living.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: So you know it does involve needing more money, you know, whereas that person they might have the same objective of time, but they can like they don't need to work, whereas I will always need to work, but as long as I know it's for something to satisfy.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: You know my overarching sorry, over-upping objective.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: You know, like I feel like that's a good enough reason to do it.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: So what is that overarching objective?
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Having to, literally, it sounds like I'm a really lazy person, I'm not but like, get up, drink coffee, just not having to do anything.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, literally.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: That's it, that there's just such a liberating stage, if you can ever get to that point, which you are now.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: But I mean get to that point, add in time for you to money for you to.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: I mean that must be so, just being told what to do or knowing that you've got to, you've got to go and do something, and you know, I don't really want to go.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it screws up your whole life.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anyway, yeah, that's good, tell me about what you're kind of working on now or you're working towards what does the landscape look like for you with current work?
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to get projects that I really want to do at the moment.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: So, like I really like anything that kind of like tells a story with like stunning visuals as well.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: Like that's kind of the direction I want to go in.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: You know, today that might change.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of want to get to a point where I almost feel like the work that I'm doing, to be honest, I actually have, bro, I have no idea.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still in a very early stage of my journey to like to know exactly what I want to be doing.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: So I'm my.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: The stage I'm at right now is just kind of figuring that out.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Well, you answered it.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know working projects that have a story, but then I'm like is that what I want to do?
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it is difficult.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is I?
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: I, yeah, I'm the same, yeah, I'd love this, I want to do this, and then maybe I don't like, if I'm completely honest, like passion projects are way more fun, Like that's kind of what I want to be working on is just things for myself.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Like you know, like shooting, for example, like your beautiful photos, like you've obviously done that as a passion project, right.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, that was what they all are behind it, so like for me personally, that would be like my ultimate goal would just be to create passion projects for myself that then other people can appreciate, and then it's somehow turning into something from there.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Versus being a medium or like a person that can create for other people Right, I would just love to be able to create for myself and people can see it.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: Versus.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Do NFTs have a big part to play in that?
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: Certainly with the revenue side of things.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: I mean I got in like a little bit too late for it to make a massive impact for me.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: But you know, maybe I feel like, as much as I love the NFT space, I found it incredibly toxic.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Space to be in.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why?
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: I felt like it was just a whole lot of people with this like toxic positivity, you know like we're all going to make it, Everything's going to be the best ever, we're going to all be so loaded, and you know.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: And then there's these people like literally like quitting their jobs because they've been convinced by other people that it's the right thing to do.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: And you know, like, especially when, like, someone of influence is saying that like you've really got to be careful because you're really putting some people into situations They've not really like thought about so deeply, because they've been affirmed by someone that's of higher influence.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: So there are what you're saying.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: There are artists or collectors that tell people that they should do it mostly.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: You know, like to be involved in the space.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: You need to be a full timer.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: You know you need to be on 20 spaces a week talking.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: And you know, and I was like, no, you don't like.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Who are you to tell me, like, how to deliver my personal branding, like you know.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: You know, like you know, some people might be on a space once a week and that might be enough for their personalized clientele.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: You know like it's completely different on everyone.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: So I felt like I don't want to like bag on it because it's obviously changed a whole lot of people's lives and I think it was a really beautiful stage that artists and creators and photographers and whatnot were and even musicians have had like a new form of income.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: But again, like you, really, you really have to like a lot of the space.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I could.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: It was almost like a bit of a drug for people because they could see all of their friends making so much money and then maybe they weren't making any sales or it was like a lot of people made it, a lot of people didn't you know.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: So I think it's a cool area that I think it'll grow into something over time.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Like I was saying, my friend Ella, she's smashing it like her works really cool.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: But she stayed in that space ever since.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: You know, there was the whole like uptrend of it going crazy.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: And then there was the.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: You know, oh my God, nfts are dead stage.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: And then you know, as the larger scale economics are coming back into play, people again starting to have a little more cash.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: So they're like again starting to reenter like a lot of those spaces.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: But she's.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: She went through the whole thing and she's, you know, done well the whole time because she invested her time into the right people and being completely like, authentic and how that she wanted to use the space.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: If that makes sense yeah, for me it was.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: It was too much like having having the ability to like talk on a space.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: It almost it was terrifying for one.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: But then feeling like you needed to like share everything about yourself in order to sell a photo, like no, you don't have to do that, you know someone might just find it pretty.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: You don't need to like make everything have so much deeper meaning.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that was quite the the thing that was being being done in spaces.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: I always thought spaces were more just just participating in a community.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: I guess maybe that's my naivety.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: I haven't had loads of experience with it, so for sure like participating in a community.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm going to get canceled by the NFT community.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Your NFTs are amazing.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Thank you, but uh that's why we're here for honest opinions.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good, you know like every.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: you feel like everyone's there to have this community and I feel like that's how it started.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: It was really nice, you know, like it was so nice to have a space away from Instagram where creators can connect with each other without the noise of audience.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: You know, it was literally just like an algorithms.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: It was purely like you're meeting people that you, um, that have inspired you for a long time, or people are meeting you when you have inspired them for a long time and you're like having a lot of those organic chats, but again, as soon as money and competition and jealousy come into play, like it creates this like toxicity and um.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: Interesting yeah, is that prevalent across all of social media in your mind.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I think I feel like yes and no, like NFTs, mostly, I think, because it was like a purely direct income source, you know, like it was money, money, I'll do anything for it, Literally Whereas, like you know, instagram is like followers and likes.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: That's the currency, not necessarily cash.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's the.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: it brings about the same toxicity in people, I feel you know, I think as soon as, as soon as Instagram brought up that like removal of likes you can remove how many likes you got, oh yeah.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: I feel like that took away a lot of pressure from people.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: It kind of changed, in my perspective, the space a little bit.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: Canada made it a little bit more.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Um, people started posting what they liked versus what they thought would get the most likes.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: It's funny, isn't it?
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: It's the way our brain is geared.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Um, do you, are you active on?
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I've seen your social media pages, but how much attention do you give that in any one day?
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: In terms of your, your plan for business moving forward, is that a conscious strategy?
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: For sure, yeah.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: I think any.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: I think you'll hear a lot of people saying like things like oh, like, followers don't matter, um, it doesn't matter, I don't care if I've just received this many followers, and then, and for me, I'm like that's total like, yeah, you do, of course.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: You know, like, having you know difference of 10K followers and 50K followers.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: That's, that's your like.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: It can bring you a lot of jobs.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: You know like you can get a lot of clients, or like meet a lot of people or live a lot of different lives.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: You know like, um, I think followers do matter, um, and people will always try to tell you that they don't.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: But you know, like, as long as it doesn't like screw you up, like, I think it's not necessarily an unhealthy thing to see opportunity in it.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: As long as you're aware of that, yeah, I had this discussion with George Hammond the other day when we sat down and did podcast.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: But there is a difference, you know.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: If I'm a if, let's say, I'm a brand and I'm wanting a photographer to shoot my sneakers or whatever, yeah, I'm, and I have the choice between a guy or a girl who's got a hundred thousand followers and a guy or girl who's got 10,000 followers, and they're both.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: I would attribute the same level of quality to them.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: I'm going to choose the one that's got a hundred K, because that, to me, shows that they are more of a popular artist, whatever, whatever nuances are involved with that, with algorithms and when they start in, how often they pose and the strategies that go behind it, but just pure numbers and I'm a brand making these decisions.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: I'm going to choose the one that's got a hundred K.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just simple decision.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: If they do matter, they're not the be all and be, be be all and end all.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: No, I'm, I'm drunk by having a beer.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: We need to get beer, by the way.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, bring the beer up.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, instagram.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: I talk about it too much, but it's interesting.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: It's interesting the way artists perceive it, or use it.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: Yes, my point being is, if you're aware of the, the necessary evil that is Instagram, and how social media generally, how the algorithms dictates certain things, and the pitfalls that you can Get into, you can then at least utilize it to your benefit.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: You can, you can see the positives in it.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: You can see the the inspiration that it could give people.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: You can see the jobs and the, the, the amazing collaborators you work with.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: Look at our industry compared to what it was like pre-Instagram.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like it was.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: the photography world was completely gate kept before that by, like you know, an assortment of big names or or Nepo babies that you know entered that, that space.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: But, like we, there's so much opportunity now like that there wasn't before.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: So I genuinely think, like Instagram hasn't made this whole artist dead environment.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: It's actually created a lot of artists that wouldn't have even given themselves time because they didn't see the opportunity was there.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: You know, like, in terms of like what it's done for the creative space, I genuinely feel like it's got a net positive value.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: Like obviously there's a lot of negatives, you know like, but that's something if you're getting, if you're getting like screwed up by it.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Like it's not Instagram, it's you.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: You have an inability to like disconnect.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: You know like that's on the specific person to like I don't know get a bit more emotional intelligence and maybe like focus on on on boundary setting with social media.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: That's not the, the, the platforms fault.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: You know, totally agree.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: We, we fuel it.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: The reason why Instagram is so big and they change algorithms all the time and they do this and they do that All the all the features you see today on any social media platform is because of us.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: It's not because someone's thought of it out of thin air.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: They go what do they need?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: What do they want?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: So it's the same with pretty much everything in life.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: It's, it's down to us.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: We're fueling the demand for whatever it is.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, most of the population are morons, so it doesn't help.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: But that's, that's awesome, because then you know we rise to the top, yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: But you mentioned the gatekeepers of the photography world.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: You know, even 20 years ago.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: I see, going back to NFTs, I see the beauty of NFTs for that reason is because, let's say, you wanted to get your, your images, shown to the world.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and social media is not around, or NFT and and and blockchain technology is not around.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you, how are you going to do it?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: You have to pitch to a magazine.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: You have to pitch to a newspaper.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: You have to pitch.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: You have to be friends with rich people who own galleries, that kind of thing.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: So it was, I think I think my issue with it again is just going to get canceled by the NFT community.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: Please buy my things, but still available.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I kind of felt like what utility am I giving anyone by just giving someone, by selling an NFT, for example?
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: Like I I come from like a very like business minded stock investment property background, you know like so it's.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: It's very like bricks and mortar kind of thinking a lot of the time.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: But like with with the NFT space, like oh yeah, it's worth heaps because you own it on the blockchain and but like why does it?
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: The only reason my art is going to be worth more is if you're investing in the artist, assuming that they're going to then become a bigger artist, so that then their NFT will essentially be higher in value.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Like that, what else?
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that surprises me.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the word utility, because you know the definition of art is that it's not for utility and you're an art first person.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: Like it's about the art Now.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: Now it's not always about the, the investment for a future prospect.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: It can just be simple demand.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: It can be, or it could be, a very prevalent director, collector, who, who picks some of the best artwork and maybe he picks yours and then people notice go, oh, if he likes that, then I like it.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: It's just that that whole what makes any art cell you know, it's some of the, some of the best art in the world wasn't invested or bought because they thought that artist was going to be a big artist.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's just the way sometimes these things snowball.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at, look at the kind of other NFT stuff I don't know what they call it, but the profile picture stuff.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the apes and like what.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: But that was driving.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: That was driving the whole, the whole ship.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of why I just felt like it was just almost a.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: I don't necessarily feel like a lot of collectors were doing it for the right reasons, for the art.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: You know, like the underlying purchase was to make cash.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: But then again, like there's also nothing wrong with that, you know, like art collectors, in with tangible art, they're doing exactly they don't.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: They don't like, they just know that they don't like that piece of art.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: Maybe they do, but they also know that that piece of art they've spent 10 million on it, it might be worth 12 million in two years and they flip it, mate too much.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: You know, like same with any commodity, right?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like there are loads of companies out there that literally trade in in physical art.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are also some collectors who actually just collect art because they love art.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I I understand where you're coming from.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: I also felt like I was in a very like cyborgs and yeah, yeah, and dark dark raves, kind of.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: You know, people wearing people wearing fluoro, like I wasn't necessarily like the, the space that I organically like connect with.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: Belong in, belong in, yeah yeah.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm the same it's very much.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's more of a coding community.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like video game community almost kind of thing, yeah, which is again, nothing wrong with it.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Like zero Zero, I think wrong with it.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: But you have to be able, you have to feel like you belong in these things to to, in order to then put your passion across and do well at it and spend time with it, and that's that's what a lot of this is all about.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: Where are you going to spend most of your time?
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: Well, spend most of your time doing the things you love, and if that brings you lots of money, lucky you.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: If it doesn't, that's okay, but you're still going to wake up in the morning and 100% have a coffee and be happy.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: Have a coffee.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: Have a coffee and be happy and like ask me in a year I might completely say completely the opposite thing.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: But that's good as well.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: Like the more we can evolve as humans and artists, I think, the better the world would be.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: 100%.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: I don't have much time for people who are very regimented in their way of thinking.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: That's why I love doing things like this, because if if we can impact someone's outlook on life in the smallest way possible, then that, to me, is amazing vice versa, like every conversation I have across this desk, even Fia and I will always go.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: I was, that was yeah, it was interesting you make something like and that's the really the beauty of humanity.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: I have these conversations, try and connect with other people who think very differently from you.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: I feel like having.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: I'm definitely like the first person to change my mind if I hear someone say something and it resonates.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: You know, like I'm not going to just be stubborn with my opinion because like, how does that?
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: Benefit you, you know, like being right doesn't necessarily if your whole goal is to feel right again.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: That's ego leading.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: That's not like.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: That's not the truth leading, you know.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: So how is that helping you grow?
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: You know it's not, it's not helping you shrink.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: So there is hope yet for you in the NFT world.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: Who?
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: knows I'm not going to say no to anything.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: To be honest, you know, like at this rate I change my mind every 20 minutes.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: I'll probably like get home today like go in a dark hole of researching NFTs and be like, oh you know, but I think for me, I think maybe it's got a bit of like intensity, like thinking about that space.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: I was renovating a house, you know like at the same time as I was in the NFT space and I was also doing my full-time corporate job just being spread completely thin.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: So I was under a lot of stress.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, as I've associated that space as being like a stressful space because of my underlying feeling towards life at that minute was like total burnout.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: I definitely think it contributed to my burnout because I was spending a lot of time on it, which I didn't necessarily have.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: So then, you know, you then resent and blame that space, but it's like actually again, that's on me, that's not the space, that's totally.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: I did that, you know.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, Cheers mate, cheers, cheers.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: We're now in beer mode People don't need to know the time.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: They don't, but it's 9am.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, leaving NFTs aside, but maybe staying on the kind of digital spectrum.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Do you have any, I guess, insights or opinions on the situation with AI and how it might impact us as creators in an already rapidly changing industry?
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: I think like AI is scary man, like it's beautiful what it can do for us, but I just feel like just AI in general versus like AI in like the creative space, but like it's really just autonomizing humans into not having to spend the time to do things anymore, which is kind of what makes us what we are.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not a big fan.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: Like I'll definitely, like I'll obviously use chat GPT all the time, like it's great, I love it.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: I like I absolutely love it.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: But like I just I don't know if it's got a positive ending.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: You know it definitely feels very Terminator.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't have a positive ending.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: No, Skynet.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: Well it's so, my brother, he's a.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: He's like a climate scientist, right.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: Oh well, very smart guy.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: But he's depressing to talk to.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, but he's also amazing to talk to.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: But, like he, his biggest fear is AI and he's a climate scientist.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: Wow you know, because the ability that it has to actually just make its own decisions, I like we really don't want that to happen.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: You know, like if you're making a machine that can literally go like, for example, a country goes OK, we'll run computers by AI in the country and then they can just basically decide the things that will make the country better, what if then the AI learns that the thing making us not good is humans?
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like I don't want to sound like too conspiracy theory, but like I don't know, I'm not comfortable.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not completely comfortable with the idea of like of it, yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: I get it.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: I don't think many people are.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: I think, in the very, very small sector of the creative industry that's photography.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: I think people are loving it, but that's a very, very tunnel vision type of view, because all we see is Photoshop getting better, lightroom getting better, the real authentic stories having a more valuable place maybe.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I totally agree with you.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: It's even that what scares me the most is the top brains in the world are shitting themselves.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was included, bro.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say your brother included, but yeah, I can look at them.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: We got a fucking idea.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: We were so ignorant with it and that's OK.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: It's like COVID.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: It's like I don't need to know anything.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: I don't need to know everything about COVID, but I need to know that the top brains do know about COVID and they couldn't agree on anything.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: So there is a bit of reticence.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: With AI.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: It's like where's the truth?
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: The truth is no one knows.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: I feel like what's the objective?
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: Just to make our lives easier, essentially.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: Is that it?
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and all that's going to happen from that is that they become easier to a point where there's nothing.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have to work.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: This is my thing.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: I'm talking like long, long term, like a million years kind of thing.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: But you know how evolution happens.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: What are we going to need?
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: What are humans going to need from their bodies and their minds in a million years?
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: What things are we going to drop from our?
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: Because computers can do it?
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: Are we going to be weaker?
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: Are we going to be?
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: We're not going to be as strong like physically, we're not going to need to like be able to write a book.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: That's obviously a very long term.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you, yeah, Like is that?
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: Is it kind of like what if you?
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: think about survival of the fittest.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: Exactly I don't know what the fittest would, how that would be defined in an AI world.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: Who knows, it could be the most simple, agreeable, obedient people you know survive Right, and then you're left with a population that's just lemmings and ants, and then, yeah, it's very sad, it is very sad.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: I think, though, in like the creative space in the short term, like I don't think AI will ever replace artists you know it can potentially replace.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: Like not minimizing what product photographers do, because some are extremely creative, but like, if you want a cheap way to do some product shots and a quick turnaround, like sure it cuts costs down to businesses.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: That be stupid, not to you know like yeah.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: But if you're like in terms of like artistry, like you can't, the power there is in the mind and in the concept you know, so you're always going to, even if you're just a director of AI within the creative space, I don't know Like there's still a place for creative minds and there always will be.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: Unless the AI has become creative and have self-thought right and their actual beings, which is inevitable is just a matter of when Delete them.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: We digress when you talk about artists, and you know there's clearly a form of inspiration for you.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: Are there any specific artists that you've looked up to or, or, I guess, try and emulate or get inspired by?
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: Are there any clear standouts?
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: Oh God.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: That aren't machines.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: Name and shame time, I suppose.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: I mean I couldn't even think of one off the top of my head because I've got so many you know, like and they always change.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: You know you'll have like a flavor of.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: You know, when you have like a favorite song and you play it like 5,000 times, it's kind of like that and then you're like, okay, I'll leave that for now, that kind of thing.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: I'm the Matt Jacob, but I feel like a lot of my inspiration actually comes from like the, the power of like nature and its ability to like create the most beautiful creative concepts itself.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: You know, like, have you ever looked at like a plant and gone like that is art?
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: You know like, like no, but like, if you look at like it's veins and you know like, how, like, what sounds weird, how wild is it that like nature can create that?
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm only joking, I've got absolutely blows my mind.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like absolutely blows my mind.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: How do you incorporate the story element into that type of photography?
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: I think a lot, of, a lot of my stuff was like, um, minimalist kind of landscape photography and kind of what I was trying to aim to do was, obviously, with photography, you can only see the picture.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: You can't smell it, feel it, taste it, hear it.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: So I was kind of trying to my kind of objective was to make you feel as though you were there.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: So by exaggerating certain aspects, you know, like maybe some people thought parts of my work was like over saturated, I don't know.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: But like you know, like you see orange, you want to see orange, you don't want it to like get lost behind or like, um, yeah, just making it feel like you're there with one sense yeah, yeah.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, I would say my biggest, my biggest inspiration would definitely be, just like the natural world and how it creates its own concepts, like that kind of thing.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: I can't think of any names.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah my bad.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: Why do you think, then, that people follow you Like, I mean is?
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: Is there a specific, is it that inspiration that you think people can?
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: see, they're all paid followers.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: Money or giveaways.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: They do giveaways or something.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know how they yeah, that's yeah.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's a good question.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: I have no idea, like I mean, I really I like my work.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: But you must have thought about that Really, like you know who is my audience Essentially.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: You've got how many followers?
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: 20 odd thousand.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of people, let's say.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: Let's say 1% of them are actually interested in every step of your artistic journey.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: 1% of that is 220.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: How many followers have you got?
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: 23.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: 23 is 230 people.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: That's still a lot of people If you think about put them in a room.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of people interested in it, physically like, yeah, like actually invest?
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, why?
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: If you had to think are you doing the maths, Is it right?
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why did the maths yeah?
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: you're the maths guy, you know you would just start take a stab in the dark.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: Why, why do you think there'd be so interesting?
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know a lot of people followed me because, like a couple of years ago, because I was doing like a very different type of, like New Zealand landscape scene.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: So a lot of the people, a lot of the people that followed me were people that were either in New Zealand or like wanted to come to New Zealand.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: So it was a lot based on, like me physically being in New Zealand and creating works that hadn't necessarily been like wasn't the stock standard way to shoot New Zealand.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: And then I think now more of just the journey of you know, because obviously I was posting about like being in Auckland and living in a house and all that kind of stuff and then seeing maybe people find it inspiring that I've like completely uprooted and I've taken a leap of faith.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: Have you talked about that story?
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: Not like, not like intensely, but it's kind of clear that that's what I've done, plus, like a lot of people are really enjoying my barley stuff at the moment.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: So yeah, me included.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: I'm just looking back at your New Zealand stuff, I think yeah, yeah, super cool.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: I love your colours.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you, what?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: Do you have?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: Any favourite photos of your own?
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a couple.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: Sorry, made that noise again you.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: You bro this one.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: I took over Kia.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: A Kia, kia.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: It's like my favorite animal in the world.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: It's like a parrot Okay, not necessarily the biggest bird person, but just like the specific bird.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: It's like the only alpine parrot in the world.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: It's in the South Island in New Zealand and it's like the cheekiest thing you will ever meet.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: If you've met a Kia, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: KIA or.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: KEA, kea.
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: That was the Kia shot.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: Oh nice, it's quite big yeah.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: And they're like just like.
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: It's like a true representation of a Kiwi, like not the bird but the people Like on the outside they're like just boring and green, and then they like kind of open their wings and they've got like this bright, like vibrant orange.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because, like New Zealanders are very like, very much like that.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: We're very like humble people.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: We don't, we don't brag, you know like, but then there's so much magic going on underneath it that one will pull it up, and then there's another one as well that I really like.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: I took in Glen Orkey.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've been, I can't remember You've been to New Zealand, south Island, yeah, but I've only been to Queensland Queensland, queenstown, and Auckland.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: I didn't leave you much beer.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: No, that's all right, there you go.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, moody, is that a?
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: Moody yeah.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: Moody, I'm a Moody, I'm a Moody, I'm a Moody, I'm a Moody.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: I'm a Moody.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: I'm a Moody.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: I'm a Moody.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: Who's that stranger?
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: Joanna, poor girl.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go and stand over there miles away in the dark, cold and wet.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: Four in the morning Just like, oh, okay.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, I feel so bad for the girlfriends and partners of photographers.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: They like we get Moody.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like we make them do things that they don't want to do.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: Oh it's working.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, they like, they like.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she knows all about that.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: I said man respect.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: When you travel, is there like is there any kind of specific experience that that you think back on that?
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: Oh that's, you know that changed my perspective on something, or I learned a big lesson in that, or you know something that sticks out in you.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: I mean we did a lot of like backpacking, no money, kind of traveling Like it was so happy we did it that way.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: But we were probably the main thing Like we went to.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: We did a lot of Latin America and we went to a place called La Tisha in the Amazon, in South Columbia, okay, and we got there and we were like we'd really like to have like volunteer somewhere or like give back, and we couldn't find you know an agency that we could go with.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: So we kind of just like went into this town and just started asking around, being like do you know, any projects that we can like help with can be anything.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: And we found this family that lived like a couple hours upstream on like canoes kind of thing, like in like a bit of a tribe that really wanted to kind of jump into the ecotourism space and really needed people that could speak English to like to help them, because their background was cocaine plantations, which for them it wasn't like a negative thing, it was just farming, it was just farming, you know like sorry, not plantations manufacturing.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: So like the kerosene and all that kind of stuff like the heavy stuff, but for them it was just like an industrial job.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: So they'd kind of gotten away from that and we're looking for a different direction.
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: And then we were me and Joanna, kind of being the people like running these tours for people to come.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: So we're like we were like tour guides and then they couldn't speak any English so we were like translating tours.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: My Spanish improved like dramatically but yeah, it was absolutely like insane, like being able to like give back to that community in that way.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: And then after that we then we jumped on the boat from the Tisha and did like the entire Amazon on like what do you call it?
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: Kind of like a people fairy, but like you're on it for like two weeks and you have to like fight for a spot with a hammock to sleep in.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: Like it was really really, really intense situation.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: But you really get to understand like how different people's day to day Monday to Fridays are, because that's for a lot of those local people that said like nine to five Monday to Friday.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: You know that is that is their norm and like for us it was just so like completely different.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: And then we start complaining about like having a degree in business and like what's my purpose in life?
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: And like all that kind of stuff, and you just feel like so, so incredibly privileged and you can never like you should never forget.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: You should never forget that because we have, like it kind of like really imprinted to me that I have the choice to make the choices I'm making right now.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I did really well, like in the corporate world, like I did you know better than other people in the same country.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: But like us as New Zealanders, like we have such a privilege that we are able to like make these decisions and live our dreams If we really want to a lot of people for them, it's like you know we start here and they're starting here, so they even just have to get to there.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: You know there's so much more distance and ground they have to cover.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it definitely made me feel very like grateful, but also then seeing like the way that they live so simply and beautifully, it's like I feel like we need to incorporate some of that into Absolutely.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: That's what this place teaches me a lot.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: You know, that's the beauty of travel as well.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah Right, it's a cliche broad as your mind.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does, but it more like opens your eyes.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I forgot.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: You know, even if you travel frequently, you could go three, four months, six months without leaving your, your, where you live, and then when you go away, oh yeah, I forgot, there are other people in this world, living often more difficult lives than me and completely different lives than me.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: What drives them?
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: What are they interested in?
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: What's their culture about?
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: Why do they do these things?
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: You know what the word is for that Sonder.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: Have you ever read Sonder Sonder?
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: It's like the, the realization that everyone around you is living as vibrant internal lives as you.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: You know, like or like you know, everyone's got their little drama at work where the where the workers in a rice field or where the workers in a corporate office like they're still, you know, like so many similarities, but like everyone's lives are as vibrant as your own, you know blows my mind.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: And that's.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: But that's why I love portrait photography.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: A photography in itself gives you a vessel and a reason to to travel and go after different experiences and meet different people.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: But for me that's why portrait photography is so interesting because you get to.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not so much about the image, it's more about the experience around getting those images and meeting these people.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: You're having to kind of immerse yourself and just learn about other people's way of life and that could be someone across the street or it could be someone across the other side of the world.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't matter, but you know that, that you might even find you've got more in common with the person on the other side of the world and the person living across the street.
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: We just our last project was in um Saliah, which is an island off South Sulawesi, and we the whole idea was to um document photograph the, the badger, the badger people, the CGPs of of Indonesia, I mean they're, they're all around South they're all like the Bender kind of reason Exactly.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: We talked about this Um and the photos.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: Like, I haven't even done selections yet and we're talking a month ago but I know the photos are good and definitely some of my best work, but actually we look back on it and we talk about that trip and it's nice to do the photos.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the people we met, the the you know obviously the early morning's, long days and the heat, but they, they were so welcoming, like genuinely they had nothing.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: They have nothing they have.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: They have cell phones and cigarettes, yeah, and the rest is they get from the sea and they just, they just live and they're all smiley, happy, welcoming.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: Granted, we gave them some money, but I guarantee like they would have been just as happy and and grateful that we were there, and for me that's everything, that's.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: And if we could come out of it, the other side, with some, some nice pieces of art and a story, like it's just cool, it's just amazing, yeah, so I think that's we have to remember that and that, you know, and that's what's inspiring to people is when you talk about, when you travel, and you you give back, and there is, there is a I don't know we'll bring up the word purpose again, but that is a little purpose for you to go and photograph and go and travel.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: Is that you giving back to people with?
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I've been knowing it right.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: And that's the.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: I was definitely much more of a travel and this is another massive cliche but I was like a traveler before I was a photographer and it, kind of like lead that's the traveling aspect of things really was the origin of my like photographic journey.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: You know same with me.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's that.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: I see the.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: It's so nice to be able to like find a medium that you can express what you're seeing while you're traveling, and that's what photography is for me as well.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: Like you know, like going to different countries and shooting the people with a camera.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: You know, like you're able to kind of share your experiences with, even if it's just your friends and family back home, let alone like your wider audience, like you're able to like really, especially if you can like find a way to actually express what's going on in the photo, like it's so cool that we can do that.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: Again, it goes back to privilege.
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: It's privilege, yeah, you know.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: It's incumbent upon us to make the most of it and to do well with it and hopefully give back into, whether it's inspiration, education or whatever.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: That's kind of.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: It kind of goes back to what I was saying at the start, like a large reason why I did change my life was that I was sitting there going.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: I literally have all the means to make my dreams come true if I really tried.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: And I'm like I'm really disrespecting all of those people that are trying so incredibly hard to make their dreams come true but they start way behind in terms of privilege.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: So I was like I almost have a duty to like to actually follow through with that, because, yeah, we're lucky, you know.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: Super happy for you, man, very, very excited to have met you and hopefully we can do some work together.
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: We usually end this with a lucky dip, kind of mentioned to you before, oh God.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: We have these conversation cards courtesy of Steve Bartlett, the legend that he is.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: If I ask you to just pick random, then I'll ask you the question and we'll go from there, all right.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: I'm nervous Okay.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: All right here, all right If you are lying on your deathbed, what three things would you want to have achieved in life, and do you do things each week that will get you there?
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 2: Bloody hell.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: Good question take as long as you want.
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: Take me on like an existential crisis journey here.
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: If you were lying on your deathbed, what three things would you want to have achieved in life?
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: I mean definitely giving back to just people, humanity in general.
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know how you can like quantify that.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: Like I would have, I'd love to touch people's hearts and make help people feel whole.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: I think that would be a great thing to die with.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: How would you quantify that?
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: I guess you'd quantify that with feedback with people who actually can contact you.
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: Don't die.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Also like having a family, obviously.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: I think for me would be really nice, Like well, I've never said that before.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: I don't even know that.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: I don't even know if that's accurate, Joanna oh.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: God.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: A third one Spread in peace and love, man Showing the world compassion.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: So do you do things each week that will get you there?
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: I can answer two of those three.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know about having a family.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll say that.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: One more question before we go, and this is from our previous guest, george, and I'm going to get you to write a question for the next question a minute without knowing who they are.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: He writes how are you really feeling?
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm feeling good.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling really good.
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling exactly where I want to be right now, extremely grateful for where I'm at in life mentally, financially, physically, all of it.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: I'm just like absolutely so, like proud of myself and Joanna for like jumping into this and like taking the risk, you know, to try to live life in a different way, like totally stoked.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: Couldn't be happier.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy for you.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get you to write a question for the next guest, but it's been an absolute pleasure and hopefully we'll get you on again.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: Cool Cheers buddy.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you.