Latest / 8 Years To Live / What Does a Safe Relationship Feel Like? | With Haley Hardman
Transcript
- Collen: Every person has a story. Some shape us, some break us, and some help us heal. Join Sisters Kim and Bibi as they explore mental health, trauma, relationships, and personal growth through honest conversations, lived experiences, and professional insights. Because understanding your story can change the way you live it. This is Eight Years to Live. I have gone into a coma. I would just say. Mario Shriver. Yes. Yes. Why do we have so many nicknames for each other? That's a good question. Because medical trauma is one of the most under recognized forms of trauma. Who are you gonna talk to when I die? He's already telling you you've got eight years slip. You know, I've been saying that I'm in my home and I should really be saying I'm in a fancy studio in Las Vegas by myself, recording a podcast. WWW I am I say that too. I'm at home by myself. I am by myself. I was with someone that we adore this morning getting our international driver's license. Driver's permit, I should say. And You will never guess who it is because she is here today with us. Is it my favorite person ever that has changed my life for the better? Haley Hardman. Dr. Hayley Hardman. She's probably gonna want us to edit that, but we're not going to. No. Because we have to give credit where credit is due. So, Hayley Hardman. Welcome. Thanks. This is a really high bar that y'all are setting very early on before I can even get a word in. We just you have ⁓ just such a huge place in our hearts, Haley. So we don't say anything lightly about you. We talk about you I talk about you so much, you know I do. Probably more than you talk about me. Actually I don't know if that's true. I was about to say those are fighting words. Anyway, this is Haley Hardman. We just love her. She's one of our BFFs. I would say more than a friend. I call you a family member. And I am dead serious when I say that. So welcome to our podcast. I'm so excited. I'm gonna get emotional real quick if we continue on this trajectory. Me too. I love it. I'll just go ahead. I know. I I will too. I'm sure I'll cry. I've just am planning on it. But I'm just gonna go ahead. I know that we talk about this often. You and I have talked about how we come from very different home lives. Polar opposite. It could not get any more different than it is. Somehow we're still friends. So that's that's right. Not just friends, we're sisters. Yeah. ⁓ so I wanted to ask you something, and you can share as much or as little as you want. I think you're Pretty open book. When you think about childhood safety, how does that what does that mean to you and what's the first memory that comes up for you? Oof. Childhood safety. You know, I don't know that I have an outright memory that I can point to, but the way that I felt safe, which I did not even realize until later, how much of a blessing it is to feel safe because that was my norm. So that's probably why I don't have a memory. Because it was just my everyday, thankfully. Childhood safety, what that meant to me was My parents were present in a lot of different ways. They poured their time in giving me and my siblings attention, in ⁓ developing me and my siblings, in disciplining me and my siblings, and in really creating, and this is where I would say it hinges probably, a very Safe space to be able to bring anything and everything, whether it was a problem, a predicament, a question, there was no judgment. It was always met with love, patience, and kindness. So I would say my parents, especially my mom, like what she cultivated relationally, was my go-to for pretty much anything and everything. In fact, people even into high school. They would say if you ⁓ don't want people to know what it is that's going on and you don't want things to get around, don't tell Haley because she'll probably tell her mom. Because I've just told my mom everything. That's what she created for us as far as our relationship goes. So that's what comes to mind. That's my personal definition. That's so awesome. It seems like that's carried on to today. I know often we're together and her phone will ring. I'm like, That's your mom. Or we leave I'm like, Haley's calling her mom. Immediately she gets on the phone. I'm like, what does mom say? All the time. Somehow we're in a separate car. It's just how that day ended up. And then she'll be like, What did your mom say? Haven't had a conversation about whether or not I called my mom, but it was, What did your mom say on the phone? Because chances are we were chatting when I was going from point A to point B. You said a couple different things that I thought, ooh, what does that mean? Because like having a parent that's present, what does that mean? And ⁓ safety. Like how does safety and discipline go hand in hand? Because you said you know they disciplined you and they were present. So talk more about that. Okay, I'll talk about the presence first and then I'll talk about the discipline and how that goes hand in hand with safety. As far as presence, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. So in a literal sense, she was at home with us. And then my dad has a great job that allows him to kind of pick and choose when he does work. So growing up, all I knew was the legitimate presence, mom and dad were there, but they were there far more than just here I am in the home. It was okay if there's a sporting event, we're both there, we're cheering on our daughter. If there is something going on with school, we're working through the homework problem together. If there's something going on with a friend that's tough, whether it's in elementary school or in middle school, mom and dad are lending listening ears. And offering different advice for how to navigate that. And then also playing devil's advocate for different perspectives I might not have considered outside of my own. So it was very much they were there, they were listening, they knew me deeply. And I think that's probably a facet of being present that people often overlook and just think it's the time that you're spending with somebody in the same proximity. Where I think there's a depth to it, especially that we're losing now, probably, that I was fortunate enough to have childhood into adulthood. And then as far as discipline and safety, how those can go together. I already mentioned that my mom and dad really created kind of an open-door policy. Come to us with anything we want to be your source for answering questions, for dealing with problems, things of that nature. But it was never at the expense of Falling below the standard they set for our family. So mom and dad would have standards like, you know, this is what we expected, you bare minimum, we expect you to do your homework, we expect you to treat others kindly, and then we could probably come up with a list of all kinds of things. But as long as that standard was being met, there weren't any issues, so to speak. So if there were any problems, like I would go to them, chat with them, and then if there was inappropriate behavior, whether it was like lashing out in anger, if I was dealing with something emotional, or if I was disobeying rules that they had set in place. They would still handle it lovingly, but discipline would come because there was a shared set of expectations because they had communicated that to us. So I think that's kind of how they coincided. You said lashing out in anger. Sorry. No, I just I'm just wondering because I don't know. I know what a healthy home life looks like now ish. I'm getting to know what that means. But I can only imagine like when someone lashes out in a healthy home, I don't even know what that looks like or how that would be received. That's fair. That's even allowed. Yes. True. So it wasn't allowed. And I would s I'm a big feeler in general. But when I was not as in control of those emotions, there wasn't really a way to figure out how to navigate anger, but I would say I am pretty quick to anger. that would happen. Like I would just lash out whether it was the way that I was speaking or maybe slamming a door just because I needed to let it out physically somehow. So those would happen, especially in middle school. Fewer and far between in high school, but still present. And now maybe even, but they just look a little differently. So It was always this, this is one of those inappropriate behaviors that we won't tolerate. But let's get to the root of why it is that you're feeling the way that you're feeling. And there will be s some form of punishment, let's say, to hold me accountable so that I'm not just like lashing out in anger or behaving inappropriately, whatever that might look like. But along with that, there was always a conversation of like, okay, what is it that is making you feel this way? Let's get to the root of the why, let's find a source, and then from there let's do some other things. Like if it's rooted in something going on with a friend or something of that nature, like let's try and consider different perspectives outside of your own, which I think that is like a superpower of my mom's, I would say. Playing devil's advocate in a way where I never question if she's on my side or on my team. But very much like, okay, we know what you're feeling, we know what your experience, what your perspective is. Have you considered from the other party's perspective? And she'll raise things that I had never thought of. That it's like, you know what, if that were to be the case hypothetically, all of a sudden the anger dissipates a great deal. I love that you were allowed to express anger and lash out because I think you're human who isn't gonna lash out and still be met with love and ⁓ punishment or I don't even know if punishment is the right word. Yeah. Discipline or whatever. Yeah. Yes, accountable, but still having those emotions, strong emotions, strong feeler. And sometimes we lash out, like you said, even in adulthood. And now I think as adults, like what does that look like for people that grew up more, say like Mao and I where if you do lash out as an adult now we're like, ⁓ gosh, what's gonna happen? If I lash out, am I gonna lash out to the point of going to prison? Or you know what I mean? Like it's an extreme because I we weren't taught that basic like any emotion is welcome. Yeah, and I think there's a big difference and it's okay that you feel this way. Right. As long as that's justified, so to speak. But what's not okay is all of these ways in which it could be handled that are negative. And it's okay to feel this way and why? It's like there's a reason that you're slamming the door. There's a reason why you're acting out as opposed to if you're slamming the door, sometimes parents will say, you know, go to your room and stay there until you until you can calm down. But your parents went to you. Mm-hmm. Now there would be a waiting period. There would be heights of my anger or frustration and it would say, All right, go to your room and then maybe fifteen or twenty minutes would pass, but they would always come And there would be like a full on discussion. There would be a discussion of how do we get to this point? Why? Now that we know the answer to these questions, what does that mean moving forward? And then what are the ways that we're gonna hold you accountable to the lashing? Basically. Yes, I love that. Mm-hmm. Were you gonna ask something else, Mao? Yeah, go for it. ⁓ you were saying something, Haley, but ⁓ yes. ⁓ ⁓ I was just gonna say it's kinda fun because as I looked at some of the questions, it's almost like a love letter to my parents of how they raised me. That's what I was thinking of when I was going over the questions. So it's just fun to be able to talk about what I think they did really well. And not to say that every family has their own issues and their set of issues, but I really firmly believe I can say that my mom and dad did the best they could with what they had and really tried to strive for optimal outcomes and scenarios each time, which is really cool. A love story. ⁓ my gosh, that made me feel Yes. ⁓ That's beautiful. That is beautiful. Talking about any chance I get, so this is fun. And talking to y'all, so I was just gonna ask, because like you said, you were raised in a secure home, which created a secure attachment with them. Was there a time that you realized, ⁓ this isn't normal? Like this loving home, like not everybody had this. That happened way later than it should have, I think. And there are a few reasons for that. I would say that I was typically the one to invite people over. So most of the time if we were hanging out outside of school, my friends would just come to my house. Pretty rare that I would go over to some of my friends' homes. And when that happened, I think I remember almost just like flagging, like, ⁓ that's a little different. Maybe not as healthy of a dynamic ⁓ between the parents, something to that extent. I do remember. Hearing about a lot of my friends in middle school and high school, their parents getting divorces. And I had this, I don't want to call it irrational, because that does happen, but I think it was irrational given how healthy my family unit was and is. But I just remember freaking out, mom and dad are gonna get a divorce, because I've been hearing about all of these divorces. And it got to the point where my mom and dad had to sit me down together. And they were like, here's why we won't be getting a divorce, or why it's never been on the table. And they would walk me through it. But I still just remember having this persistent fear of when is that time coming? Even though my mom and dad had never given me any reason to think their relationship specifically would undergo that. But I just remember those outside influences and I don't even think I attached it ultimately to what it is that you're asking Mal of when did I realize it was abnormal? I think that's why I couldn't comprehend that it wouldn't happen. So my gosh. That's so true. That's crazy. So what did your parents conflicts look like between the two of them? You know Growing up, I don't even think that I saw my parents like I can't remember a time that I saw my parents get in an argument. The first time I ever remember seeing them in an argument that made me feel very unsettled was when I was in my master's program. So it was like well into me being out of the home, but That's not to say they never fought. Like I know that they had disagreements and they would have healthy conflict resolution, but that always happened behind closed doors. And one thing that I've noticed is when I see couples fighting, not even having a disagreement, but like truly kind of arguing back and forth, it's still very unsettling to me. And I think, how can this not wait until other people aren't around? And I think because my mom and dad did that, and not only did they do that, that was it kind of became an unspoken rule in our family. If there are guests around and it's not just the nuclear family, this is something that's probably inappropriate to discuss in front of a guest so that we're not making them feel uncomfortable. Let's just put a pause on discussing it and that will happen later. So I actually don't know what it looked like growing up, which is cool. And I don't think many people can say that. And I think in this moment I'm having the realization of getting to say it. Like that's a privilege, I think, which is really neat. Yes. And how they didn't sweep things under the rug. They you and everybody in your household knew this is an issue and I can table it and it's still gonna be addressed. So it's safe to table it and it's almost better. And once, you know, maybe even emotions are have come down like the fifteen, twenty minutes, you know, we can cool down and now we're going to address whatever happened. That's rare. Right. Mm-hmm. And it's cool to see how that's played out even with my relationship with my siblings now. 'Cause I would say Confrontation's always been really difficult for me. I don't enjoy it. There are some people who are just like love a good confrontational conversation. Won't ever be me. But I have realized the importance of it. And that's never been extremely difficult within my family. it's still not easy, but not something that I wouldn't consider doing. And yeah, those conversations even carry out differently now, I feel like for my siblings and I. And we'll do that one on one and we'll set aside time to like, hey, this bothered me or hey, I've noticed this pattern. This seems a little off. Let's get to the bottom of it. So that's been really cool to see with my sisters especially. So when you had healthy or when you had conflict, say with a friend, your parents would kind of coach you through it. And then you would or they'd say like, What's the problem? How can we go about this? ⁓ so then I'm just thinking now into adulthood with friends, me being the friend. because I didn't grow up with healthy conflict, how does that Like I know you and I have had some conflicts that we've both had to work on resolving. I'm not sure what my question is, but what did I guess what did it look like with your friends once you left the home? How did you resolve conflict with your friends once you were on your own? So, in order to answer that, I'll give some background context, which will initially seem like it's not at all answering the question, but it paves the way for us to get there. So I to a fault am a people pleaser. And I think when I left home, I would still discuss issues I had with friends, with my parents, but I was very avoidant to Ever have a direct conversation of what that looks like. And still working on that now, but I wish I had made a much more overt effort when I started my time at Mississippi State as an undergrad. Because I do think that could have led to ⁓ Just some pent-up negative feelings, whether it's like resentment or bitterness. And since then I've grown a lot. And what that looks like now is just knowing my closest friends love me dearly and I love them dearly. And whatever they're bringing to me isn't malicious, there's no ill intent, but it's something that occurred and needs to be resolved so that we're not hanging on to that weight as we move forward in communication and relationships. Whatever that looks like. And what I've noticed as I've grown, still very new, is if I avoid conflict or confrontation, what I'm doing is giving in to instant gratification and delaying what I think would be way more gratifying in the future. But it's more of a short-term band-aid as opposed to facing something I don't want to. face right in the moment, whether it's a difficult conversation or maybe tears with a friend, but dealing with it now and in the moment and soon after it happened, whatever that is, whatever transgression that is, after is so much more freeing. And the delayed gratification of resolving it as soon as possible far outweighs just giving into that short term gratification of having to avoid it altogether and not having to deal with it. But I didn't really know that until later. So Would you say that you delayed talking to them or ⁓ let's say that you felt that something needed to t to be talked about and you delayed what was the fear that was coming up that would stop you from ⁓ talking? You said, you know, you're a people pleaser. Were you afraid of not pleasing them? It could be a mix of that, but I also just want to have fun a lot. And I'm like, that conversation's not fun. That wouldn't be the fun friend. That wouldn't be exciting or on an adventure and it's more so serious. And I don't like the idea of telling somebody, hey, from my perspective, right, you've done something wrong. And maybe I don't have incomplete information that paints a totally inaccurate picture. I don't know, but bringing that to somebody and almost in my mind it's accusatory. Even if that's not actually the case, getting over that bump sometimes was too much. So I just opt to sweep it under the rug and be like, all right, focus on how you can move forward in ways where you're not trying to carry that weight, but that catches up and that's not fun either. So I guess it's about choosing when to have your fun, you know. Well, I think I told you that recently too. I we were having a conversation, something serious. I said, I hate talking about this. And you're like, Why? I said, It's not fun. I don't wanna have this conversation. It's just ⁓ it's so weighty and nasty and I wanna be I want to be a fun friend. So I get it. We have that yellow or what is it? Sanguine. Yep. Yes. Adventure, fun. Sweep things under the rug, we'll deal with it later. But I will say I had no idea that you swept things under the rug. Mm-hmm. Like as soon as I met you. Yeah. I really thought like, wow, this girl has no fear in I wouldn't say calling out, but addressing. I would say you I feel like you address things quickly and not not in an accusatory way at all. I've never felt that. But you'll ask questions like, How did you get here? or what made you think that? Or hey, I'm concerned about this or you said this, what did you mean? All the time that I thought, Wow, this is so natural for her. So when you told me I'm such a people pleaser, I hate confrontation, I thought that and you said that was kind of confrontational. I thought you were so natural and you're so gentle in your approach with me. I feel like it's very specific but very gentle. And I love that. So yeah, I had no idea that when I met you that was new to you. ⁓ yeah, brand new. I mean I would say since moving to Idaho, which this is year three now. The ⁓ environment I was in, which was in a PhD program, was so stressful and once I was able to break free of that, that's when I would say new leaves started turning. So it it's really fresh and new. So so cool. I and I love that I get to like witness that just through through your relationship, that secure relationship, because often at least for Bibi and I, and Bibi correct me if I'm wrong, but like confrontation for us wasn't modeled. And so when it's not modeled for really anybody, it can be difficult. It can be much more stumbling. Like you can confront in a gentle way, in a non accusatory way, where for me confronting I'm having a pet or I used to. have a panic attack, do I even want to say? Am I making a big deal? I'm not gonna say and I'd spiral and then when I did say it would come out like this huge fight that had nothing to do with anything and now I'm picking a fight over here. So yeah, no, that's amazing that you get to you learned ha through your parents, watching your parents, how to confront in a loving way, even if it is difficult for you. Like with your temperament, it can still be difficult, but You've been able to do it successfully. Mm-hmm. And that's so interesting, B B. And I know we've talked about this, but I think in this moment I guess my approach typically is question asking, which is what my mom would always do. So you know that's probably subconsciously just been picked up, which is neat to see how that's even attributed to the way that she did that. Totally. You ask such good questions. I tell Mao all the time that's what I need. Like if someone wants to get to know me, I spend time with someone. I don't typically volunteer information. I do now more than ever, I think. But usually I'm just like, I'm here, I'm hanging, we can do whatever. But as soon as the questions come, well number one, that tells me that you're interested. That shows me that you care. And it shows me like the questions you ask are so specific that I know you're not it's not like you're trying to get at something, but you're trying to get to something maybe. So it's very I don't know, very strategic. in a good way. And I know that. I'm like, she's getting at something. I'm like, what is it? ⁓ there it is. And it's usually something so caring. I'm like, how how did she do that? I'm I'll tell Ma about it. Well, I don't know that that's the I don't think that's the answer, but thank you. I tell my clients all the time when, you know, if it's a couple or If it's somebody having a an argument or they feel some sort of way towards somebody, I that's the thing is I tell them, get curious. If you can get curious, you'll find out what's behind whatever behavior. So you're living it, Haley. That's cool. Yes. I don't think either, BB, like the reason I said you make it easy, I don't know if you're giving yourself enough credit, because I felt like you met me in a way where you were honest without me ever feeling like, whoa, I get it, like this is what you think, or the way that you would share information, I felt like compelled me to meet you there as well. So I feel like that's what's easy about our friendship. Not to say that we don't have conversations that are difficult, but I've never thought, I wonder if I can share this, or I wonder if maybe I shouldn't share this because it's just been a space where We've encouraged each other in that just by the way that we've modeled that to each other. And I think it's kind of a simultaneous thing. Not necessarily one sided, but in my mind, if I if you ask me a question and I don't want to give all the information in totality, I almost kinda like second guess myself and check myself and I think that's not fair to her, nor is that something that I want to do because she deserves like all of it. all that I'm thinking, the the total answer to the question. But it's also just because of the way that you answer my questions and then I guess like to a standard that you hold for me too. So that's what I mean when I say you make it easy. 'Cause I feel like you model that I don't even know how to respond to that. I just felt like crying. I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I just Yes, I love I love our friendship. I'll just tell you that right now. I love how we communicate. ⁓ my gosh. I love how what you bring out of me, what you bring in to me. ⁓ yeah, I think you have totally modeled secure attachment. Mm. That's really neat. And what's wild, I know your story. I know your background, a lot of it. You shared a lot of that with me. And I think I've even like you and I have talked about this. that version of BB that you refer to, I don't even know that version. Which is so wild. Like I never And you said that a lot too. But yeah, I've never known that version and If somebody were to approach me from the start of our relationship and say that secure attachment was new to you, that would be surprising to me. It would. Well, because mine was an act, yours was real. I knew how to fake it. I knew how to fake being normal. I knew how to fake coming from a loving home, a church, like Bible believing. I knew how to play that role. That's why my friendships typically stay right here. Just right here. And then people start to go in deeper. I'm like, Nope. Nope. That can be difficult because of that secure attachment that Lapped for so long. I mean obviously you know I have ⁓ my other really close friend that refuses to be on our podcast because she's an introvert. ⁓ But ⁓ I don't even know what I was saying. Sorry, jog my memory. You're good. You were saying that you were faking it because a lot of your relationships stay here and whenever people start to dig, you're like, I'm out. But you somehow just kept digging. Well, something about you is very maternal and very just caring and nurturing. I already know what you're thinking. Nobody's a mother here. No one's each other's mother. Anyway. Yes, we do kind of go back and forth. Sometimes Mao can be the mom, you can be the mom. I don't think I'm ever the mom, let's get real. But you have such a nurturing presence. I think as soon as I met you, I told you you remind me of Mao. I said you're such a big sister. You're such a big sister. I had not known you very long and I asked you to do safe and sound protocol with me. Mm-hmm. Which I was touched by. And you told me you said, I'm honored, I'm touched, absolutely, and you did it. I balled my eyes out, we didn't talk about anything, I had no idea what I was crying about, and we moved on. You were like, Let's do it again. I was like, Who is this angel of a person? I'm serious. I thought, Wow. Just I think it's the continual showing up. So it's here's all my wuch. Let me just vomit and You're like, okay, let me help you clean it up. Let's do it again. I'm like, really? Let's do it again. Let's do it. Do you want to talk about it again? I'm like, I guess. And you just never seem to grow weary about whatever I'm going through, whether good or bad. I have so many things to say right now. Okay, let's just back up a tiny bit. So we talked about safe and sound protocol a couple episodes back. I wanna hear your experience, Hailey, 'cause I've not heard your side of it. Like I've heard B B side, she told me I asked Haley, she sat with me, I cried. What was that like for you to sit with her while she was doing the safe and sound protocol? So a little more context before to answer that. A lot of times and I'll share this with BB, like I am very thankful to be able to say that I genuinely don't really know what it is to have experienced trauma and what the lingering effects of that are. So with that in mind, I really try not to have a ton of expectations with that because if somebody were to describe it to me, I can hear what you're saying, but it's still extremely difficult for me to comprehend the nuances of that. And it's probably just the tip of the iceberg. So I don't think that I expected anything going into it. And really what it was was just me sitting there with BB. And I think maybe I asked some questions like, is it okay if I move around? Like, is it okay if I'm on my phone? I remember thinking that to myself. And it was really just sitting there for a relatively short amount of time. And then if she was upset, I think there was always room for either just continued silence or if she wanted to talk about anything. But if not, then it was like, all right, where are we gonna go eat lunch? So it it just was nothing crazy to me. It just I just I do remember feeling like, wow, I can't believe she asked me to do that. What a vulnerable thing to do. And truly, like when I said I was touched, like I genuinely was like, that's really cool that she invited me into that space. And a lot of times what I tell BB2 is I feel like I'm privy to a version of her that a lot of people don't know. And I don't take that lightly at all. And that was probably one of the first requests that you made for us to kind of start on that path. Which is cool to think back on and I hadn't thought of that before. ⁓ What's your take on that? I wanna hear your thoughts. Well, first I think something that I struggle with is when people speak the way you do, when you say, you know, gosh, I'm so honored sometimes I'm like, Yeah, yeah. But for you, like I feel that you're like your words really match. Your insides match your outsides. And so when you say, you know, I'm honored that baby now I'm gonna cry, I'm honored that BB has invited me into that space, like you're truly honored. And you even though didn't experience trauma and you can't relate to it and it's you know so far away from your mind, you can still recognize that it was a vulnerable question for her to say, Hey Would you mind just sitting with me while I do this safe and sound protocol? And you recognized how big that was. Like that's so touching that you were able to recognize how big of an ass that was. Mm-hmm. I agree. I don't think I realized that you knew it was that vulnerable. Because at the time I don't think we didn't know each other that well. Like we chatted a few times, probably hung out a few times, and for whatever reason I thought I feel so safe with this girl. I told my mom like ⁓ I asked Haley to do safe and sound protocol. So not really like me, I don't think. Because I think within the people I asked it was Mao, obviously I started with you. And then eventually I think I moved on to Ruben, hesitantly. Not because Ruben there's something wrong with Ruben, but because I had such a hard time feeling safe. And then I asked Marianna and I asked you Haley. And I thought that's like my these are my innermost people. And to for me to like my body recognized that you were safe. I knew you were safe. And I remember I think either it may have been the first time that we did it, the way you received me. ⁓ my gosh, this will just undo me. Well you didn't say anything. You just put your hands out. We just held hands. And I just cried and you just said we can stay here as long as you need. And I was like, What? And I just cried. Yes. Cried and cried and cried. And you just were not in a hurry. I didn't feel rushed at all. It wasn't like our childhood was like, Don't cry. Swallow your tears. You're done. It's over. I just cried and I was like, Wow, this is okay. Not only was it okay, you welcomed it, you're like, Yes, cry. Cry, cry, cry, and then what should we have for lunch? I was like, We can move on and keep living the day like normal. Yes. Yeah. I do remember you saying this is not normal. Like I don't do this. I remember you saying that and I was like, That's why I think looking back I realized it was so vulnerable 'cause you were like, This is atypical, this is not happening and yeah, I mean the emotion was there. And I don't like people to see me cry. I d I mean I do it, but I feel like that to me I'm like I'm not putting up a strong front, which is important to me. So yeah, I think that's why I was just like, This is extremely vulnerable and what again a privilege. Like I know I say that word, but genuinely a privilege to be invited into that space. Like that don't think anybody should ever take that lightly. Freaking love you, Hailey. I do. I tell people all the time I'm like BB is the kind of friend people search their whole lives for. That's how I describe her. Isn't that crazy? That is so crazy. It's crazy because I mean you come people like you just come and go all the time. Just kidding. No. It's true. It is true. You do create and I'm all kidding as a sister, but you do baby create a safe space to like for me to be vulnerable. You've created a safe space for me to say, I feel some sort of way or this these are my securities or whatever. So I do agree with Haley. I was just giving you a hard time. I know. I know. I know. That's just our catchphrase. Did you notice, Haley, a shift in B? ⁓ w when she did neurofeedback? I don't know, this was maybe I don't know, three months ago, four months ago, because I mean you knew her before Safe and Sound well, before all the therapies, and so you were with her while she's doing Safe and Sam protocol. And then she came to Las Vegas, she did a neurofeedback intensive. Did you notice a shift with her ⁓ when she got back to Idaho? I've seen BB grow in a lot of ways, and I wouldn't say I'm most observant. So probably could have been user error or not even user error, but I started noticing ⁓ BB continued getting more vulnerable and was willing to allow herself to just let her emotions she let herself feel her emotions. I wouldn't say they ever ran out of like they weren't running rampant or anything, but I just remember her telling herself, It's okay for me to feel this and now I just need to like understand the emotion. And that continued more. And alongside of that, I felt like she made more requests of me while I was simultaneously learning I can make more requests of her. So I absolutely believe some of that was tied in neurofeedback and some of the therapy that she was doing, especially the emotions and especially the vulnerability. I do think Those also could have helped with making requests. But I think we were learning that alongside each other as well. So it's hard for me to attribute something specific to maybe which therapy or whatnot, but those are the ways that I've seen her her grow. Mm-hmm. And I tell MAPS just between the two of you. Sorry, go ahead. Exactly. That's exactly what I was gonna say. So Mao is part of a group, I can't remember what it's called, but the group like a group therapy. What is that called now? R R P And she's asked me before, like, would you consider doing R RP? It's a group setting. And once she told me exactly what it looked like, I already do that with you. I told her, I'm like, that's just our friendship. Yes. And the fact that like when we have had conflict and we've resolved it, even if time has passed, you're like, You can bring that up again. I'm like, What? Like resolution doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Which again, like growing up for us, there wasn't resolution, but if there was a conflict, don't acknowledge it, don't address it, and don't bring it up. So the fact that you're like, No, tell me like specifically what happened within you or what upset you And the fact that I can go through things specifically and you acknowledge every single bullet point and tell me like, Let's talk about this again. Or you'll tell me your own request, like, hey, I didn't really feel like talking about it today. Let's talk about it tomorrow. Like, wow, what a healthy individual that you're protecting yourself and you're looking out for not just me. I know you have a million and one friends and I I know exactly why you have a million and one friends. Because who does not want to be friends with Haley Hartman? I am in competition with the world to be your best friend. I'm totally kidding, but you I you are also the type of friend that I don't know anyone that would not want to be your best friend. I'm like, you are the best cheerleader. You encourage me all the time. I constantly feel like I hear your voice within me, like You can do it. Like if nothing's a big deal, you can do it. I'm like, well, Haley says the biggest cheerleader. Yes. It's really sweet. I think I had to learn the hard way and I won't go into too many details about this, but a friend several years ago, I just kept sliding stuff under the rug and then I'd heard buzzwords like resentment and bitterness and I like, hmm when people are just upset. And then when that took hold of me because I refused to address some things head on, it is awe-consuming and it literally festers within. And I just remember thinking, wow, I was late to the train on this one. Huge. Like I I would go back and do that again in a heartbeat. Big regret. But I do think huge learning experience. And honestly, like it's shifted my perspective a lot. And The way that I view it now is my relationships that I have, like with you, with my sisters, those are w way too important for me not to address things head on, even though it's not fun, even though it's difficult, but the relationship and just who y'all are to me as individuals far outweigh. So it's almost like in an odd way that's the motivation that then compels me. To do that more so now. 'Cause it again it's still new. But you want to preserve the relationship. Yes. Yeah. And not even just preserve it. Like, yes, of course. Like that to me is a non negotiable, honestly. But it's not just I don't want to just preserve this relationship. Because I'm still friends with that individual. Good friends. But I want us not to have to go in tomorrow or into next week or into next month with things that are unresolved. and just build over time. Even if it's just like the smallest, slowest build. Like you don't realize until it becomes unmanageable and almost impossible to get to the root of why bitterness and resentment took hold and festered for so long. So it's not just let's preserve the relationship. It's let's preserve it, of course, but let's make sure that we're on a trajectory where you and I both know and are on the same page. This is a safe space. I am your advocate. You are important to me. Consistently I will choose you. Don't want you to ever have to guess if I'm like trying to give in to some ulterior motive. Like all of that needs to be squashed pretty quickly. And all of those are unfortunately very real thoughts that your brain whispers to you in the space of resentment and bitterness. So had to learn the hard way. Glad I learned it. Wish I could've done it differently. I could continue this conversation for hours and hours and I can't wait to do that in Japan with you. But as we wrap it up, I'm hoping that we can invite you back and just to continue and explore secure attachment and see how you your relationship and BB's relationship has evolved and if you've gone through, let's say, an argument, like how did you guys resolve it? What did that look like? I'm so curious. That would be really fun for me to To hear both sides. We can lift the back curtain. We sure can. We sure can. Yeah, we can talk about that. That would be awesome. ⁓ yeah, I have a lot to say about that. How how well Haley handles conflict with me specifically. I know family is probably a different story and I'm sure you handle it well, but with me specifically, I I know your motives are pure. And that I think is such a good healthy sign of a good secure relationship. I know if something happens, you miss a bee or something's off, I'm like, ⁓ her intention is good. I have no I'm not like I wonder why Haley did this. Or I wonder, I always know I'm like, ⁓ it's Haley. It's Hayley. I know that mm hmm. And I think that's the biggest thing to your point. 'Cause I always think the same too. Like I'm like, I know how much she loves me. I know that she's for me. I know that she's wanting the best for me. So like I never have to question the motive, never have to question the intent. Maybe it just came off in a way where it's like, just to your point that you just said, that was a little off Yes. And then I love that we can ask each other. Mm-hmm. You'll be like, Hey, you were a little off. What was that about? I'm like, ⁓ you're right. I was busy or you're right, I'm on my period or whatever it may be, you know. There's always something, but and the fact that you You say you're not observant but you are. You pick up and maybe it's because you know me. But I think when something is off, I don't feel like you ever let it slide. You'll ask, Are you okay? Your tone was different or whatever it may be. I'm like, ⁓ yeah. Thanks for checking in. She's attuned to you. Yes. That's what it is. Yes. It's maybe she's not observant like in the world around her, but she is attuned to those that she loves. That's a cool way to put it. Yes. I could do this all day with you guys. I know. This is fun. And we'll get to in Japan. Yay. So Haley, if you could leave the viewers with one piece of advice or an impression, what would that be? That's a great question. I'll go the advice route. And I think I would say Don't avoid conflict for the sake of comfort because comfort can only last so long. An unresolved conflict can be a beast that truly becomes unmanageable. So Mike freaking drop. So good. Thank you again, Haley. We love you. Yes. Thank you for asking me to be on. This was so fun. We're obsessed with you. We are obsessed. Obsession goes both ways. And we want to be just like you if we ever grow up. I don't consider myself grown up, so