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Ben Clymer Interview: Tampa Bay Lightning 2004 Stanley Cup Champion | Stanley Cup to Wall Street · Backchecking the Bolts

• Jason Linkes: Coming up, I'm Backchecking the bolts. I just remember sitting there and being like, There's just no way we're losing this hockey game. Like it's just not possible. ⁓ so when we went into the locker room up after two periods, it it there were some words said that ⁓ point was that this is over. Like this is over. Like I don't care I don't care what has to happen in the next twenty minutes and who has to do it, like there is a zero I mean Zero percent chance we're losing this hockey game. Welcome to Backchecking the Bolts. Backchecking the Bolts is your cup of coffee to get you the latest on the Tampa Bay Lightning. Join hosts Jason Lincoln and the managing editor of Raw Charge, Justin Godfrey, as they break down the Lightning's most recent games and go beyond the highlights, telling you what the box scores didn't. It's time to drop the puck. ⁓ Welcome to Backjecking the Bolts. I'm Jason Linkes,, and today we have a very special guest joining us. From the hockey rinks of Minnesota to the University of Minnesota, the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Washington Capitals. Eventually, hockey overseas, Ben Clymer has experienced the game from pretty much every angle possible. He was a member of the Lightning 2004 Stanley Cup championship team, and now he's taken those lessons that he learned during his playing career into the financial world as a wealth advisor. Ben Clymer, thanks so much for joining Backchecking the Bolts. Well, Jason, thanks for having me. Anytime I get an opportunity to chat a little, ⁓ you know, Lightning hockey, I I'm all in, that's for sure. I want to take you back to your days growing up in Bloomington. And for those of you who don't know, the Minnesota North Stars played in Bloomington. So you were a stone's throw away from the NHL. ⁓ was hockey like in the Clymer household? You know, I I ⁓ the it's a funny question because I ⁓ became hockey crazy, but I didn't grow up hockey crazy. I fell in love with the game slowly is what what I would kind of call it. My dad played a little bit of hockey growing up, but not even high school hockey. My mom has no background in her family, no background in hockey. And I grew up ⁓ or I fell in love with the game playing outside of my friends, which i is amazing. Like I I I wish everybody could do it that way. I loathe the idea that people and kids are playing less and less outdoor hockey and going to more and more, you know, ABC skills instructor, you know, this camp or that camp. When we have all these opportunities ⁓ outside with your friends where you're playing, sometimes it's five on seven, sometimes it's eight on four, depending on the skills and the ages of the kids. ⁓ and you're trying to figure out like, is that guy on my team or not? I can't remember if the guy with the scarf is or isn't, you're learning all these things. You have to have your head up. ⁓ and you're just having a great time falling in love with the game. And so that was my, you know, indoctrination into the game and where I started to become a a kid who wanted to play more and more. But ironically, you asked about the North Stars. ⁓ I grew up more of a Gopher hockey fan. And so we had Gopher season tickets. And so I watched all of those players go through. And in that time in college hockey there wasn't as many players going from college into the NHL. The major junior ranks in Canada were far, you know Far away dominating the entrance point into the league. ⁓ however, when the North Stars went to the Stanley Cup Finals and lost to Mary Lamiew and the Pittsburgh Penguins, ⁓ there was a dramatic, you know, bandwagon effort to to support them during that. And I am not ⁓ ashamed to say that, you know, my family hopped on that and I got to see some of those games. ⁓ you got to go to did you go to some of the Cup games that year? Yeah. Yep. That was that was a neat deal because they were, you know, unheralded. Probably ⁓ you know, ⁓ underfunded as well, I imagine, before the days that payroll was a part of every article in the National Hockey League. ⁓ but it was it was fun to watch and you know Marlonieux was a young player at that point and was just disassembling the league, ⁓ which was too bad, but ⁓ it was it was quite a spring in in Minnes Minnesota right at that time watching them. I lived in Marshall, which is in southwestern Minnesota, three hours away from the cities. And people don't realize, unless you live in Minnesota, how big high school hockey is in Minnesota. The state champions state championships are played in front of packed houses that you would see probably equivalent to football in other parts of the country. You won a state championship in nineteen ninety four playing at Bloomington Jefferson. What was that experience like? You know, i i it's it's so fun to to be able to talk about the state tournament because it is so unique. And when I let me just give this a different angle. When the scouts and the GMs come in to watch and and oversee the state tournament for ⁓ you know, player evaluation, I can see that they're looking around the guy, the new guys are looking around going, this is crazy. Like there's 18,000 people. Like the now Grand Casino Arena will be filled to the brim for the state championship game and many of the other games. Like that's a lot. For people to understand. Like that is the magnitude of what we have here in Minnesota. But we don't participate in the tier system that dominates most ⁓ of the US hockey programs. It is a community-based system. Now, naysayers right now would say, well, we've got players leaving and moving here and there. Okay, we'll fight that battle another day. But neither here nor there, when when I was a part of it, I grew up with all of those players that I played with. ⁓ I moved from one side of Bloomington to the other side of Bloomington. When I was in seventh grade, ⁓ that was very unpopular and I got, you know, razzed the whole time saying I was moving for hockey or whatever, but truthfully it wasn't. ⁓ people never believe that, but you know, it really wasn't the case. ⁓ but to be able we had a policy back then that, you know, if you were moving for hockey, that was great. You could come and and try to play for Jefferson, but we were just gonna cut you. Like we didn't care. Like I was going to be able to play with the kids that I knew. ⁓ and was a part of, you know, growing up, which is pretty special. I mean, I I moved from Kennedy to Jefferson as a pee-wee. And I played with Toby Peterson every year from Pee-Wee right on through high school. Same thing with Mark Parrish. He was one year older than me. We would be back and forth every year as he would, you know, be advancing one year ahead of me to play with him in high school. ⁓ to play bet against both Toby and Mark in the National Hockey League was incredible. I mean, our team that year that we won and I was the third of three championships in a row for our community. on that team though, I think we had thirteen of fifteen skaters play Division I hockey. Like thirteen of fifteen. That's a team that grew up in the city borders. Didn't move. Didn't no, we grew up playing together. I think we, you know, if you read Malcolm Gladwell's book, ⁓ The Outliers and how you can really multiply and speed up your you know, your advancement in any particular craft, we were fortunate we had great coaches That were ⁓ I think significantly advancing our our you know ability to to progress in the game. I think we had a really neat thing where we had an off-season program when there was an off-season program with a few different businesses in town. Kevin Ziegler ran this business called Youth Pro back in the day. But it was training ⁓ in the summer that we would all do. And it was it was like fun. Like we would show up, we'd be doing sprints and we'd be doing other things, but it was just I didn't think about it like I'm training for hockey. I'm like I was just competing and having fun in the summer. ⁓ and and things like that, you stack them on top of one another, and then you have, you know, forty kids doing that. Well, fifteen of them are gonna work out pretty well. And when the rest of the state is doing other things, and I also, you know, don't want to say the kids weren't playing baseball. Mark Paris was an unbelievable baseball player and played a lot of baseball. His father's in the softball hall of fame. Kids were doing those things. ⁓ yet All these other attributes were just really catching Lightning in a bottle for our community, and success was a byproduct of that. How much does that state championship mean to you today? I mean, there's a picture, you know, right over my shoulder of me from that season. And and I think about this and I tell people this the Minnesota State High School tournament is so storied that it it it it's right up there. I mean, there's there's three the best three tournaments in the world are as follows in my opinion. And the Stanley Cup is the best tournament, if you want to call it a tournament, because it's just a really long, you know, three month tournament, if you will, is the best tournament in the world. That is that is the creme de la creme and and unbelievable. ⁓ the world juniors holds a special place in my heart as well and the state tournament, but they're kind of at a tie where they mean different things to me. I love the community aspect of the state tournament. I love ⁓ the joy and the exuberance when that you see and feel from the kids. The interviews that we do ⁓ for the state tournament broadcast are amazing and awful at the same time, but they're perfect. And what I mean by that is when you interview a a young man who may have his head, you know, completely bleached and looks ridiculous, but is just overjoyed and cannot speak in any sort of ⁓ normal manner, you could say that that's a terrible interview. And it is, but it is absolutely perfect because it's encapsulating how much joy and the nerves that he has into just a perfect ability to dive into where that boy is at that moment. And I I when I do the tournament, I I I it's a lot of hard work because you can't really study ahead because you don't know who's going to make the tournament. But I do so much work To prepare for that tournament because it is I'm doing many, many, many seniors last hockey game. And I want them to be able to watch that hockey game and show their kids that they played in the state tournament. And so I think it is such a special event. We're lucky. and I can't wait to, you know, to do the twenty-seven event. Are you doing the twenty-seven event again? Yeah. So I've been doing the the the state tournament now for, gosh, I think it's 15 years, maybe, might be 16, getting old, it feels like. ⁓ and so it was really my first big big, I guess, my first opportunity into television. And I was super fortunate to be able to do that many, many years ago. And ⁓ you know, from there things kind of continued to cascade forward in the broadcast business ⁓ with working for the wild. But yeah, I've been fortunate enough to do the last couple of states. d we have A and double A, so the double A being the big schools, the single A being the smaller schools. I've been fortunate to take over for Lou Nanny, who was doing the double A tournament for literally half a century. ⁓ and so to be able to sit in that chair just in and have a real appreciation for like what that means for the state of Minnesota, what that means for the state of hockey and the hockey community, I take incredibly serious, but I also take a tremendous amount of pride just to say like, gosh, I was one of those kids. Like I was The speechless kid who was a sophomore to won the state tournament who, you know, was throwing my crap around the ice and having a ball out there back when there were clear boards, which was an amazing experience that ⁓ you know, true hockey fans will remember those those clear boards. You could line up at a face-off and look down and you'd see the guy's beer sitting by his sneakers. ⁓ you could see the peanuts that he'd been eating all game scattered all over the floor. I wish they would bring them back for one game. I understand the advertising and all the things, but Gosh, it would just if somehow we could just bring those back for a game, I think you would see such an amazing, you know, appreciation and the nostalgia of the event. ⁓ it was just neat because if anywhere you watch the movie Grumpier Old Men, on the TV, you will see in the background they're playing hockey and there's clear boards. That is the Minnesota State High School tournament on a on a movie, for instance. And every hockey fan from Minnesota knows exactly where that's coming from. When you played on the clear boards, and again, when I lived in Minnesota, they used to televise a state tournament, but when you played on the clear boards and you would go back and forth to a normal rank and then you see that, was there did it change your perspective as a player? Did it throw you off? It it didn't. I would imagine for the goalies there could be some some struggles in terms of tracking the puck in as it's coming in, being able to place against a ⁓ then like a traditional just white advertised, you know, zero advertising on the whiteboards. But for me, no, it didn't bother me a bit. I was, you know, I was shaking in my boots, just out there with, you know, the idea that I was 15-year-old kid ⁓ during that tournament playing in front of that many people at what was the St. Paul Civic Center that now is Grand Casino Arena with the Minnesota Wild play was just a larger than life ⁓ experience for me. I mean, I just couldn't believe that I was out there doing that. I was just You know, a kid who grew up playing outside with my buddies and and having a good time, then all of a sudden things and gears started to link together. And before I knew it, there we were. You left high school and went to the University of Minnesota. Now you grew up a Gopher fan. After they offered you, was there any consideration of going anywhere else? This is a pretty funny story. ⁓ and so I I went I was very fortunate that I had offers. Pretty much everywhere across the country, anywhere I wanted to go as a full ride. And so, ⁓ y not yes but no is the end result, but I want to tell you about how that came about. And so really for me, I took a couple unofficial visits. I went to BC, BU Harvard, Providence, ⁓ after a camp, USA hockey camp in like class that it was super funny. I'm at BC. I'm having my first cup of coffee my whole life with Jerry York and J at a Dunkin' Donuts, and Jerry York sits me down and he's like, Ben. What are you doing here? And it was like so matter of fact and authentic. And I'm like, well, I wanted, I want to be, I want to do a good job with my research to make sure that I make the right decision. And in going to BC, or if I was to go to an East Coast school, BC is pretty darn special. That is an unbelievable campus. I'm in a great educational opportunity. But for me, it really came down to Minnesota or Michigan. And so Red Beronson was coming to see me like fairly often, which was a pretty darn cool things. Like he would show up to our captain's practice and then we'd go to have lunch or whatever at dinner at Perkins, which is also, you know, it's just crazy to think like Red Barons is coming here to see me. Like he's taking, you know, 36 hours out of his life to fly to Minnesota to see me. So I came down to Minnesota, Michigan. And ⁓ I sat down with Doug Woog for my first real visit where we were gonna talk, you know, some numbers or whatever. And he pulls you in ⁓ after the summer camp with the top kids in Minnesota. And I s funny, I st I know exactly where this room is in Maruchi Arena today. And he pulled me in and he's talking to me about all the things and he said, Ben, you know, I'd like to offer you a scholarship to the University of Minnesota. I'm like, All right, great. This is amazing. Like, this is super cool. And he's like, I would like to offer you seventy five percent. and you know, goes on his spiel or whatnot, and I look at him and I'm a sev I'm my seventeen, I might even be sixteen at this time. I don't know, but I'm young enough that I'm over my skis from a negotiation standpoint. But I look at them and I say, Doug, thank you very much for that offer. That is tremendously you know, kind and and and a great offer. Unfortunately, if you are the only school in the nation that has not offered me a full scholarship, I'm here to tell you I'm not coming. ⁓ and his jaw just about hit the frickin' floor. He's like, Well, ⁓ well, we think we've offered five Player five defenseman in the history of the program a full scholarship. And I just looked at him, I said, Well, if you want me, there's going to be a sixth. And that's just the only way it's going to be. If Michigan's offering me a full scholarship, if Wisconsin's offering me a full scholarship, all these other places, I just said, Look, I can't look at my parents and tell them that they have to pay to come to the University of Minnesota. That's just simply not going to happen. And he left that room and was probably went back to the coaches and like, thinking, you know, the stone's on this kid to say that to me. And ⁓ Lo and behold, it didn't take, you know, much but, you know, the sun to come up the next day and I had a full scholarship. I still made him kind of stress it out a little bit. Michigan was and is an incredible, incredible campus. And I I I respected ⁓ Red Beronson to the end. And I now working for the Big Ten network as well in television, going back to Michigan quite often, I I walked around campus one day, this is about a decade ago, and I came to the rank and I was talking to Red after and I said, Hey, Red. I thanks so much for recruiting me as as hard as you did. You made the decision incredibly difficult. And there's a funny story there too, by the way. But ⁓ I realized I told my son, I realized I didn't have a bad decision I could make. If I'd have came here, certainly my life would've worked out a little differently, but it would have all worked out. And it was in it Mel Pearson was still there. It was a nice way to just say thank you again to him. But the funny story about Red and that I my visit there, they were c they brought me into play or they were playing western Michigan. And probably thinking, like, okay, we're gonna smoke Western Michigan, a good time, have a recruit in, da da da. And they lose to Western Michigan. Marty Turco's dad's behind me, losing his mind at, you know, the defenseman screaming at them. And I'm like sitting there, like, ⁓ my gosh, like this is crazy. Like Michigan's losing. I don't even I never even heard of Western Michigan. Like, never even heard of Western Michigan. Didn't know they exist. ⁓ and what a program they built, by the way. But really. So we go up, and you have to walk up the stairs to get to the locker room, even to this day. And they've remodeled the arena twice since then. We go up and I'm like outside the locker room in my little suit and tie. And I'm like, I don't want to go in the locker room. And Red's sitting there talking to Mel and they're gonna go in and talk to guys. And Red's Hey, come on in with us. And I'm like, No, it's okay. Like, I get it. Like it's it's a loss. You probably want to talk to him. He's like, Nope, you're coming in. And I was like, ⁓ darn, I don't want to be in this locker room. So I go, I'm standing in the corner and I was trying to be still, just trying to melt into the paint. And you know, he He's giving it to the guys, but not really. He's giving them the I'm not mad at you. I'm disappointed in your effort tonight speech, ⁓ the fatherly one. And so we walk out and he goes, Hey Ben, you want to know the good thing about tonight? And I'm like, sure. What what's the good thing? You just lost five rip or something to western Michigan. He goes, Well, at least you know you could play for Michigan. And I started laughing. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Like I would have been better than some of your players tonight for sure. So That had to have been a pretty unique experience going through the recruiting process. But I wanna go back to where you were talking to the University of Minnesota coach and you started negotiating. Was that your first the first time in your life where you're where you really had to defend your worth? You know, probably I just had this understanding, like my mailbox was plumful, I say very humbly, and it was an amazing where I had a letter from everybody. And ⁓ and I just looked at it and I'm like, look, guys, if you aren't gonna value me, ⁓ and it but also like, hey. My mom was a teacher. My dad you know, worked for a couple of banks and in and had a a pretty decent position with those banks. So we weren't hungry, but we weren't like very extremely wealthy. Like we were, I would call us an upper middle class family, something like that, maybe a middle class family. I don't know. I never wanted for it's not like I didn't have you know the equipment that I needed, but I just was like, you know what? I've put so much work into this, I'm not letting my parents pay for it. And so it was less about the money, more about the fundamentals of no. I know that ⁓ and I'd made the world junior team at 17, which not many kids make it at 17, or I was in that process. I'd been the captain of our under sixteen team, our under seventeen. So if I'm the captain of, you know, the US program at that point a couple times in a row, I'm kind of like, no, like this isn't, I'm not gonna get anything less than a full scholarship because You know, I had other great opportunities. Sure, I wanted to be a Gopher. And that was a dream growing up watching the players at ⁓ the old Mariucci Arena. ⁓ but I wasn't gonna be it wasn't gonna take less. Let's put it that way. ⁓ and so I don't know. My parents asked I told my parents when I got home and they're like, W what? Like what did you why would you do that? Like we can pay the, you know, back tuition, the f the twenty five percent was probably fifteen hundred bucks or something. And ⁓ but I just was like, no, that's just not right, and I'm not doing it. ⁓ and I don't know why I had that amount of self confidence or that belief, but ⁓ that was just where I stood at that moment. I was I was willing to die on that hill, whether that was smart or not, probably a stupid decision, but I just knew that ⁓ it was gonna be all right. The coaches had to respect you for that though, that you had that confidence in you because Any coach is gonna want an athlete with confidence, good or bad. And I I think there's a level of respect they had to have you for, as you said, having the stones to say that. I I hope I'm glad that they didn't look at I I would think that yes, you are correct. Although there could be ⁓ you know, who the heck does this kid think he is? And I didn't say it in a disrespectful manner. I just said it in a matter of fact manner of like, well, look. Everyone else in the country is offering me a full scholarship. And if you guys aren't, then you must not value me the way the same way they do. And this isn't going to be a a fit. ⁓ and so I'm glad that, you know, they didn't look at it like I had ego or I had, you know, me versus the team, because it wasn't about that. But it was gonna be I I just again went back to my mom and my dad and I said, they're just not paying for this. Like they've they've paid enough. ⁓ they've they've provided me so much in the game and allowing me to do the things which are a lot different than the things today, which you're playing, you know, twice a day every day, thirteen months a year. But I don't know. It was just the principle of the matter and and I'm proud of that decision, but it's a funny story today for sure. Now you you had a pretty unpopular decision in the cities. You left the University of Minnesota after your second year. Now you got injured during your sophomore season. What went into that decision for you to end up going over to Seattle? Yeah, that was you know, it's funny in today's world, i it's water under the bridge and even it's just people. But back then when college athletes did couldn't take $5, literally, you get paid, you know, somebody takes a McDonald's, they'd they'd say that you're ineligible for the next year or whatever. ⁓ I got drafted 27th overall by the Bruins. And that was back in an era where you had to either opt into the draft at 18 or out. out of the draft you got drafted at nineteen. And so I had to opt out of the draft to maintain my amateur status to play for the University of Minnesota. Then I got drafted 27th overall after my freshman season. And I got picked by the Boston Bruins. And for Bruins fans of of today's world, the Bruins were a different organization ⁓ when Harry Syndon and and was running the team. It was run and it's kind of like the Hawks in the sense that once the Patriarch ⁓ know, past the kids, the words kids took over and said, We're taking the handcuffs off and we're gonna create a winner. And it Boston was run on a very, very tight budget. I mean, they brought their captain, Ray Bourque, a Hall of Famer to arbitration. Like that's just not that's just that. Right. And so my agent at the time and my agent my entire career, Brian Lawton, just said, Hey, look, this is gonna be a battle with these guys. Like, just know that. And I'm like, okay. And you really had no leverage coming out of college. Like they had you ⁓ in a position where they could make you sit out a whole year if they wanted, if you didn't accept the terms of their deal. There just was no leverage. And so if you've played your four years, they had you for a fifth year. So they could just be like, hey, if you don't like what we're gonna offer you, you can sit and we're gonna own you for another year. It takes a lot for a kid to sit for a year if they're offering, you know, 50 cents on the dollar to your net worth. And so ultimately there was a loophole. That Mark Parrish had exploited the year before coming out of St. Cloud. He went and played in the Western League for Seattle. He absolutely lit the league on fire, scored 50 goals in 50 games. And he went from, I think Mark was a third or fourth round pick to getting, you know, top 15 money. ⁓ and back then the signing bonuses were real. It was like nine hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars was the was the max signing bonus, versus now the kids are getting a fraction of that. ⁓ and so I looked at it and said, you know, gosh, I I My goal, and this this sounds bad, but I'm just being very honest with my goal. My goal was not to to be this amazing college hockey player. My goal was to be a National Hockey League player. And that's different than a lot of kids in Minnesota. I think they get to the University of Minnesota and they wanted I have one regret at the University of Minnesota. I would have really loved to have been an all American because I look at the players on the wall and I just think, wow, I if you say, Well, why wouldn't you want to win a national championship? Our team wasn't that good. Like that was an unrealistic goal for our team. And so that just wasn't going to be in the cards. I would have been better off going to Michigan if I was trying to win a national championship. But I wanted to be a National Hockey League player. And ⁓ in order to do so, I, you know, was trying to figure out how can I get there in the best path as possible and and Boston was gonna be, you know, troublesome with that. And so if I went and played in the Western League that it like I did for the Seattle Thunderbirds, I was going to be an unrestricted free agent right at the conclusion of that season. And ⁓ that had been tested and and was a part of the deal. So I did that. And the way that the rules were written, up until January January first, you could sign with the team and go and play for the team or for their minor league affiliate. So I could go play in for Boston or for Providence. I had a really bad start to that season in Seattle. I had just come off shoulder surgery my sophomore year. So I sat out a whole year and then I left school. So I played my freshman year, sat out a year, then left school. ⁓ I I was worried my shoulder was gonna get ripped out of the socket. Like I just plain and simple was worried it was not, you know, ready. And I just needed more rehab time. And so Boston was like, you know, effectively, hey, we're not offering you anything. Like you couldn't stay there. And mind you, if I didn't do well this season, I was gonna go back to school and I was gonna pay for it. Like I w and I'm not gonna play hockey. Like this was a put your chips in the middle type of situation for a 20-year-old kid. I can't believe my parents let me do it, by the way, either. I didn't really ask that kind of kid. Like I if I was whatever I was passionate in and I felt like I was going to do it and I it was a me decision. And sure we talked about it, but it was a me decision. ⁓ and so the second half of the year, I scored my first goal of the season, if you can believe that, like the second to last game before Christmas. I went home for Christmas, saw my family and it was just like, ⁓ my gosh, I was homesick, which sounds silly at 20. Kids are moving away at 14. But like I just was. And then I came back and You had a point of game the rest of the season. So got to the end of the year in Boston. It was like, okay, now we'll offer you what you want, which all I wanted was what the 27th overall pick got the year before plus 10%. Like that was the standard raise in the NHL. Like I wasn't trying to be a pig about this. And they're like, Well, no, we thought you're shoulder and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, it's a super standard shoulder operation that gets done on you know 45 players a year. It's nothing crazy. I we're not doing Tommy John surgery back in the 90s here. ⁓ and so they finally said, okay, I will give you what you want. And I'm like, well, no, the rules changed. Like I took an incredible amount of risk to to get what I wanted and I'm gonna capitalize on that risk. And so in typical fashion and the whole reason I did it kind of came to fruition, they tied me up in arbitration through the NHL court system, effectively, is what arbitration is for the fans at home. And I was just being shuttled and I wasn't getting any sort of ⁓ And nothing was moving. But I knew I was supposed to be unrestricted on July first. All of a sudden, you know, kept going, kept going, kept going. Finally, then Brian Lawton went back to the league and said, Hey, look, we're gonna sue you guys because you're limiting Ben's ability to earn a living. And the league was like, Whoa, we don't want anything to do with that. We're gonna make Ben unrestricted. Boston will give you a pick. This is over right now. So kudos to Brian. Brian, Brian was such a good agent. It wasn't hard for him, which is why he lost interest in being an agent. But I will tell you. That guy's negotiation mastery and he was playing chess with the general managers in the league and they were playing checkers. It was ridiculous. ⁓ and that was a just a great move for him. And so at that point, now the league, this is where we get a little grayer, it was I think trying to collude against that opportunity or that exposure point that I took in the CBA and was saying nobody sign him, like just leave him, like make an example out of him, so to speak. And so f I had I went from, you know, being in a really good position. Now I couldn't even get a a And so I was possibly gonna have to sign like a minor league deal. And then Tampa said, we'll have them come to camp. So I come into camp, I play well. This is another funny story. What I was thinking, I don't know, but confidence for whatever better or worse was in my body. ⁓ I play through camp, ha have a pretty good camp on the day before the ⁓ regular season's gonna start they're like, hey, we don't have a contract. Like, we kind of got to send the guy home. We've got our team. He's not far from it, but he's not on it. And so okay, so I go back to the hotel in Braden or in Brandon, Florida, which is where their practice rank was at the time. I'm sitting there, Brian's negotiated with Rick Dudley. He calls me. He's like, hey, I've got X. I'm like, nope, I'm not signing for X. He comes back. He's like, I have X plus another hundred grand. Nope, not doing it. I think I think he ends up more than doubling what we started at. And I'm just sitting in a hotel room waiting for my Delta flight to come. Like I I got nothing. Like I have, I mean, I'm holding like whatever, three, four offsuit in the poker game. I've got I'm screwed. And finally he got it to a number that was above what we were trying to get from Boston. I said, okay, I'll do it. And so I went back to the rink, signed the contract. They flew me to Detroit. Ten days later I got called up. And ⁓ played my first game in the National Hockey League, you know, within two weeks of, you know, kind of a similar Doug Woog hold standoff, but at least with Doug Wog, I knew that I had, you know, however many fifty other Division I teams it would take me. In this case, I had nothing. And besides an agent who believed in me and a lot of self belief. That's that's absolutely awesome. Now, when you got to Tampa, Tampa was not the hockey market that it is today. And I'll give you an example. When I was in college, I went to college just north of Tampa. Yeah. And my my parents come down, they say, Hey, let's take a bunch of your friends. We're gonna go to a hockey game. So we get to we get to the arena, we park maybe twenty minutes before the game. My dad gives me a hundred bucks. He says, Go scalp us some tickets. I give ⁓ fifty back and I said, I'll bring you the change. And my dad's reaction was, What? Yeah. And I gave them twenty bucks back. So thirty bucks for six tickets. Yeah. And the Lightning were at the bottom of the Eastern Conference or the bottom of the NHL. What was your first impression being a Minnesotan, being where hockey is pretty much the sport? What was your impression when you first got to Tampa? Well, my first impression, and I want to be respectful to Rick Dudley, who I I really, really think is a An amazing, amazing hockey person. But the team that he inherited and that he was running was a complete and utter disaster. Period. It was a disaster. The team was awful. It was run like a it was run like out of freaking slapshot. Like not quite, but like ⁓ kind of. and and and you think you get to the National Hockey League and your coaches are going to be tremendous. Steve Ludzik was our coach. And I don't mind being hard on Steve because frankly, like he's in the national hockey. Like, like, be better. Steve Ludzik was, in the previous eight years of my hockey playing career, the worst coach I'd ever played for. The least organized, the least professional, the least social skills. It was complete and utter embarrassment. John Cullen was working for them, and I think John was a very, very nice man, great hockey player, and was like playing his role as the assistant. Trying to do the best that he could with it. ⁓ we had some other, you know, assistant coaches that I think were just trying to figure this all out, but it was it was absolute embarrassment. ⁓ and that that was a golden opportunity for me, right? Like if I was playing for a well-buttoned up organization, I was playing for the Detroit Red Wings. Like, I am so far from the National Hockey League lineup, it's not even funny. And so I say that, but I also understood that I got an incredible opportunity. And, you know, it's kind of sometimes now when these college free agents are like, I want to go play here, go play there. I'm like, you know what you want to do? You want to go play. Like you need to play. Like find a seat. This is a game of musical chairs. And if you can't sit down, I don't care how good you are, it's not, you know, it's it's potentially going to be a problem. So that was differ. I mean, that was like we were getting killed every single night. We were, you know, just Brad Shaw was running the defense who's a tr amazing National Hockey League coach, you know, even to this day. ⁓ was was literally, you know, making lemonade out of lemons the best he could every single night. But they're putting guys like, you know, me out there with no experience, Paul Mara with no experience, trying to do our we were learning on the job where you really shouldn't be. But it was a great opportunity. Now, my second season, John Tortorella came in and and he was like, I'm trying to figure this guy out. He's little Italian guy, but he was like kind of He had a little bit of pep to him in a positive way that he didn't have when he took over his head. Then it was all disciplinarian. But the paradigm moment for that franchise and they they should put ⁓ I'll tell you what, playing for torts was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But they should put a statue of him out in front of that arena because the day they fired Steve Ludzik and the day that they hired John Tortorella ⁓ was absolutely a paradigm shifting moment in their universe. And they would not be there. ⁓ without him and he was the perfect coach at the right time with and they've gotten they've gotten rid of enough of the players who had just become complacent in their career. We'd gotten a lot younger. ⁓ and he was tremendous. It was awful, but he was tremendous. I mean, the level of accountability that he demands of his players, he can't do today. And he's so much I I have players ask me all the time, what about torts? And I'm like, guys, the torts that you see now is like the kind, gentle. And they're like, he's freaking a mean. And I'm like, you don't even know. Like, you don't even understand how that much this guy, how intense he was. The video sessions, they were absolutely, you know, they were just super transparent and he accepted nothing less than perfect execution. And I think that for the kids that we had that bought in and wanted to be in the NHL, and Craig Ramsey was a perfect mentor to compliment his you know, diff difficult style where he could put his arm around you and say, look, son, it's gonna be all right. Like we're gonna work on this. But, you know, it was just a a ⁓ perfect vacuum that turned this franchise around. ⁓ but I'm not gonna lie to you, like I got in my car after practice plenty of days and I'm like, like I just need to go home and just like decompress for a minute because it was it was so stressful. yeah, it was hard. You talk about the stressfulness of playing for John Tortorella.. Do you think that's why I don't want to s call it his act, but do you think that's why after he's left Tampa, most of his sh coaching stints have been shorter stints? Well, the world has changed. So in the last ten years it's it's become harder. I mean he is he he can't he doesn't coach like a John Cooper or a Joel Quenneville or You know, these coaches have had more longevity. And I don't say that to be disrespectful of tourists. I I just mean it to be very authentic to how he pushes so hard. At some point, the players can't take it. Which he could say, We how guys, how can you can't you take it? Like we're winning. Like, what do you mean? It's just so I think it's human nature. All of a sudden you're like, Enough. I just need a break. Like I just need I I I'm I know I screwed up, but like, holy crap, quit yelling or quit freaking out. Like, leave me alone, like I'm human. But ⁓ make no mistake about it, John Tortorella got more out of every single one of our players than any other coach would have in the National Hockey League. From me to Vinny LeCavalier to Dave Andertchuk to, you know, a top to bottom. Like Vinny LeCavalier wouldn't have turned into the player he did without John Tortorella. He may have ironically scored more goals, but he wouldn't have been the complete player. And I remember the fur when John took over that that you know back half of that season. I you know, I'd be going out and whatnot, and I'd look at Vinny and I'm like, ⁓ he's sitting at the there. And I'd go out again. Vinny's still sitting at the end. Torps would bench him the third period like once a week. And Vinny'd be sitting there and, you know, freaking like not freaking out, but swearing in French like this frickin' guy. And and John was just having the struggle of like, hey, you're gonna play all 200 feet, or you're not gonna play. And when Vinny did learn and took like Vinny is such an incredible. physical specimen and a mind for the game that, you know, he just unlocked in a hundred more feet of play that he could be impactful to the game. and that was huge for our team. Like sh I think he ironically without John Tortorell would have scored more points. And I think he would say the same thing. But I we would not have won a Stanley Cup without a Vinny LeCavalier who was playing hard two hundred feet of hockey. ⁓ and I give John credit for that. Same thing with you know up and down the lineup You Pablo Cabina is wanted to play a lot of offense and and but he was really hard down low. ⁓ Dan Boyle was certainly fluid and gifted offensively, but he defended way harder and and ⁓ made good, you know, kind of risk adjusted decisions up through the ice because of the way that John would would coach. And so yes, it was hard. And and he's not for everybody. but at the right time. He was the perfect coach for a young group of of type A kids that wanted to win and wanted to be national leaguers and felt like, gosh, we were pretty darn fortunate to be on this bad team and to be able to to put this jersey on every single night and to live in, you know, seventy degree weather every day. I mean, wearing shorts to the rink. I'm like, I don't want to get sent to the minors and be cold. I want to stay here. I I I wanna talk about the video sessions. 'Cause you said you left practice, you sort of took that big exhale and growing up I was a baseball player. You played in front of certain coaches that just brought that out of you. Is there a story that you remember about Tortorella. where he just either made a player break or you just realized that this guy was just cut from a different mold? Yeah, I'm I'm not gonna say the player because I feel bad and I've told this story ⁓ for a podcast before and it's true and everyone in that room will remember this story. But The way the torch would go is like at the end of practice, get together. You know, guys want to shoot or stick handle or goalies want to their stuff. Like they maybe want 15, 20 minutes to work on their things at the end. ⁓ and some guys would get off the ice earlier, like, whatever. ⁓ and he would say, Hey guys, you know, 15 minutes, we're gonna start video. And he would kind of give you, Hey, start video and then he'd just leave, or it'd be like, Hey, it's gonna be a long one. So like get your stuff off and get something to drink. And that was, you know, if we just lost a couple, like, ⁓ this is gonna suck. And we'd Probably lost a couple. And ⁓ he tells us, hey, you know, get comfortable. And we're like, okay, cool. So we just traded for this player. And the way it was with Torrent's, it was just black and white. Like, if you made a mistake, there was no like, ⁓ I was trying to, you know, it was like you just needed to own it. And so ⁓ Puck comes up the wall, this player's a winger, gets it, turns it over. Stop. And he would yell at Nigel, our ⁓ video guy, Nigel, stop it! And it would be like, dude, just take the remote. Like So puck comes up, player's like, Well, you know, I had it. And I was trying to like, I saw the center, and I was gonna try to like sauce it in there and you know, but he'd be like, Well, so what happened? He's like, Well, I had it, and then you know, like I saw the center. So I was just trying to like a little ding pass over the and he's like, So, so why didn't what do you mean? Like, what happened? So finally he does this like multiple times to the player, and the clip is just still. And we're all kind of die laughing because we know just you need to be like, hey, yeah, I screwed up. Like I made a mistake you're right. I need to get the puck out. Finally the player like gets it and is like, yep. I so next clip, same player, same play. Same deal goes back through the thing. Hey, what about this? What about that? You know, well, I was trying to get it out and da-da-da. I was gonna put that in the and he's like, So so like w why? Like what happened? Like, why did the puck not get out? This clip this goes on. I swear there were five clips in a row to this place. All of a sudden he's like doing this in his chair, moving around, you know, starts getting teary-eyed, and I'm like. Wow, like we are seeing a complete and utter meltdown. But that was the level of accountability that he demanded. And and I don't think he needs to apologize for that. I don't think he needs to be embarrassed for it. I think that he was trying to build a better team than he had at his discretion. Frankly, like he I know that he got a hundred and you know, five percent of Ben Clymer when a hundred percent was all that was in the tank. But You know, I would have carried the puck out of the zone in my teeth or with my teeth ⁓ before I would have turned that puck over and lost all my teeth. And a and I would have done that every single shift because I knew what was expected, and that was our standard. And if you hear these teams now talk about what's our culture, our standard. And they throw it around so laissez faire that it kind of becomes a little bit like meaningless. That was very, very authentically the standard that he set. Now your career took a little bit of a turn. You were a defenseman. And all of a sudden you became a forward. How did that happen? And were you on board with it at first? This is an unbelievable story. ⁓ unreal. And so I'm playing for the Detroit Vipers. And ⁓ it might coincide with when they s 'cause I got sent down my second year. Steve Ludzik was not a fan Ben, and you can tell Ben was not a fan of Steve Ludzik, but ⁓ and my I'm like to my agent, I'm like, Well, what's going on here? Like, what are we doing? I played 60 games of the NHL and I got sent down like the first wave of players in training camp. I'm like, that just doesn't happen. Like, I got sent to the minors so early that I and I played too many games the NHL. I couldn't play any preseason games in the minors. There was a rule against it. And I was 21 years old. And I got in, and Brad Shaw went from our assistant coach in Tampa to the ⁓ head coach in the minors. I got there, I walked in his office and he looks at me and he goes, What are you doing here? Literally, that's what he said to me. And you want to talk about like what sort of ragtag organization we're running? The minor league coach didn't know I was showing up. And he's like, I'm like, I I don't know. I was hoping you would tell me. He's like, I don't know. I had you evaluated like up whatever. And I'm like, I don't. He goes, Well, look, we're gonna make the best of this. And and and next day comes in, he's like, Hey, like, I have a note on from Rick Dudley, like. If you play a preseason game, if somebody makes a mistake and somehow you get into preseason game, like heads are gonna roll because I would, I think, become unrestricted, something like that. I can't remember. Something to the point. so I'm playing defense, playing defense. Our team is when you think our NHL team is bad, the minor league team is so freaking bad. It's unb it's it is shocking. Like go back and look at the statistics for the 01 or Yeah, the 2000, 2001 Detroit Vipers. I mean, embarrassing. So we're playing, and one day Brad grabs me, he's like, Hey, we were playing in like Utah or something. He's like, Will you play forward tonight? You know, they asked me if you could play forward. And I'm like, I'm like, sure, I'll do whatever. Like I'm I'm I'm good with that. Like ⁓ whatever we can do to possibly win a game. Like we were losing for every win we would lose six or seven. Like not not three, six or seven. So I play game, whatever, and then I play a couple of games of D. And so I get called up, and ⁓ we're back in Detroit, and the team is gonna play in Philadelphia. That's the next game. And they're like, hey Ben, we got a 510 flight out of Detroit, and you're gonna fly to Tampa, and then you're gonna meet the team, and then you're gonna fly to Philly later or something like that. I'm always Buffalo. No, let me think. It's important to the story in a minute. ⁓ and I'm like, Okay, that's really weird. Like, why I'm pretty good at geography, ⁓ albeit I'm not making maps here, but why am I going this direction? Doesn't make sense. But I'm happy to get called up and I don't care. So I fly at the 510, I show up at the rink at, you know, some early hour, way before the players. I drop my bag and Ray Thil was our equipment manager, and I dropped my bag, and he's got he's very organized as all the equipment managers are. All the jerseys are out, and generally the D would wear black or gray. And ⁓ I have a a like a neon green jersey in my stall. And so I drop my bag and I walk back into the cooking room, like, hey guys, how are you? Say hi to the train staff and whatnot. And I'm like, hey, Ray, ⁓ I don't have a a D jersey. Like, I got a green one. Like, did you make a mistake? He just starts laughing, like laughing out loud. And I'm like, what are you what are you talking about? He's like, not jum. I didn't make a mistake. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm playing forward. So that's why they had me fly to Tampa because they want to have me have one practice. And it was in gosh, was it Buffalo? I don't remember now. so that was my one practice before the game the next night that I got to play. Yeah. Were you a forward pretty much the rest of your career after that? You know Yes, effectively is the answer. When I was in Washington, we had some ⁓ you know, sh shortages that they were trying to shore up and so I played some D. I actually regret doing that because I hurt myself playing D and that ultimately it was like the first of the slow bleed to the end. but who knows, that could have happened as a forward as well. ⁓ so I I think that next the my one year in Washington I maybe played like fifty five games as a D. And I was happy to do so. They just signed me a three year contract and I was so grateful for that. I said, Whatever you guys need, I'll play goalie if you need me to. Like I just wanna I wanna get this team from how terrible we were in Washington to the way that Tampa was. And if I can be a part of that journey again, I mean I would carry pucks out ⁓ in my with my teeth in a heartbeat. ⁓ and so ultimately, yeah, I played a little bit, but for the most part it's funny. People around here remember me playing D for the University of Minnesota. But that was kind of the the extent of it. In the NHL, I mean, I would say I played 80% of my games as a forward. Now, I want to talk about the 2004 season. Now you got your name etched on the Stanley Cup, everyone's dream that it's a hockey player. When did you realize this team had it? And I remember being I was actually at game five against New Jersey in two thousand three. And I remember thinking to myself, John Graham replaced Khabibulin in game five. Game went the th I think three overtimes. ⁓ it was forever. Yeah. And I remember that ⁓ that game, I remember thinking the Devils were in Ottawa that year were the the pretty much the class of the Eastern Conference, but the Lightning were right there. They gave the Devils everything that they could handle. The next year, when did you realize like, hey guys, I think we really got a shot at this? Unbelievably astute ⁓ take that you have there because I have a theory and look back, and this theory not my theory, it's just it's a factual one. Generally, you have to lose one to win one. And go back to the the Oilers on their heyday. Like they lost to the Islanders before they beat the Islanders. And Gretzky talks about hey, he walked out of that Stanley Cup final, walked past the Islanders locker room, and the guys had ice bags on and they were dead, tired. He was walking out like, I'm good, like I'm fine. I'm not gonna say it was like that for us, but when we finished that series against New Jersey and we were like you know, we were young too, like and we didn't know the level of of accountability and the level of sacrifice, the level of attention to detail, and and and we lost that series, but we were like, Okay, we're not that much worse than those guys. But I didn't think I also didn't think they were that great naively, and then all of a sudden they go on to win the Stanley Cup. And it was like, huh. How did that team like we s we could have beat them no problem? Like s breaks would have had a gone our way and I it don't mean any disrespect because if you look at that team, they have a slew of of Hall of Famers on and they were a really, really good hockey team. But we didn't feel like we were outclassed or in it in in like too far, you know, over our skis. So I think that was the start of it that that started the next year in training camp. And then, you know, we had our record was You know, pretty amazing throughout the course of that season. So momentum and belief is building. But still, I think we went into that playoffs, like understanding how good we are, but there wasn't also this like amazing amount of pressure that say Colorado had last year in the playoffs. Like they were supposed to be the team to win. We didn't have any of that pressure, which I think was all bestowed upon the Detroit Red Wings. ⁓ and so The belief started the year before. Momentum built in a positive vacuum of of opportunity versus pressure. And they can mean the same things, but perspective in the situation is is a big deal. And we were living and breathing opportunity versus pressure. And, you know, we were able to capture, you know, a lot of guys playing very, very well. And Nick had an amazing playoffs as well. Brad Richards, you know, Vinnie Marty, Freddie Modin,, who I think you know, never gets as much credit as he should, ⁓ because he was tremendous. ⁓ it just kind of all came together ⁓ and unfortunately was disassembled quite thereafter, which is I think, you know, one of if I could wave a magic wand, it would have been great if the lockout didn't happen. If we could have all came back and tried to run it back again, that would have been a really neat experience. I want to ask you about the lockout in a couple minutes, but I want to talk about the Stanley Cup Finals. You get inserted into the lineup, game four, game six, you go to Calgary, you're trailing in the series, and then the the Martin Jelena goal, no goal. What was the reaction on the bench? And I'm sure at the Saddledome you're seeing some kind of replay or you're hearing coaches talk to guys up in the press box. No guys ⁓ Let's but let me rewind something because you you glossed over something there pretty quickly. Like I was out of the lineup and I had been out of the lineup and I got back in the lineup. John Tortorella and like to speak to John, do you know who he set out? I do not. He sat out Corey Stillman. Really? Yes. And I I rema I remember there were injuries on the blue line. Luka Lukovich was out, and I want to say Kabina was banged up as well, correct? But I think he was still playing, but he sat out Corey Stillman, like a top six player. Like, but that was I mean, to talk about the accountability that John John was like, look, and that was the that Like the standard wasn't fake or it wasn't for the easy moments. It was for the hard moments. And I remember and I I respect I I respect the heck out of Corey Stillman. He was, you know, old enough t to me at that point where he was, you know, a little bit of a sage mentor and and and I anything he said I I took very seriously. ⁓ and I remember Corey grabbing me in the hallway. And I was like, man, your world has to be rocked. That's what I'm thinking in my head, but I'm just It's the Stanley Cup final of like less words in basically every conversation. Like we're we're communicating, but we're not speaking a ton. And kind of uniformly. And he just looked at me and was like, Hey, like effectively, like you go in and you play and you play hard. And I looked at him and I was like, I had this great opportunity of something I wanted to do. I wanted to play, but I also wanted to go and be effective for him. And I wanted like I felt like I owed him like they're pulling this guy out who's way better than me and putting me in, and I had better not drop the ball for him, for the coach, or for the team. And that was an incredible, you know, that, but that speaks again to John. Now when you're talking about the Martin Jell, like we didn't know. Like we we so what what what was it? It was nothing. However, I will tell you that when they were showing, I believe, the Stanley Cup on the In the Saddledome up on there, it was open and ⁓ the things. But like our team had belief. Like we had belief and sure we were down in that series, but we had Nikolai Khabibulin. And sure they had Kippersov, but like I never ⁓ easier for me to say because I wasn't playing 20 minutes a game, but like our team had belief. We were never ⁓ into a game thinking, ⁓ know, shaking in our boots or anything like that. ⁓ The story after that game, though, I think is incredible. So we win that game and they had the Red Mile, and Reebok was the jersey provider for the league. They had literally sold out of red Reebok jerseys in the world. There were no red Reebok Calgary Flames jerseys. They were gone. They were printing them, moving them out, printing them moving out like as fast as they could. So our bus goes through the Red Mile. And I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, these people have been drinking all day. We're going through 20 deep, you know, street. Our bus is going to get bombarded with beer bottles. And not that I thought like anything other than that was going to happen. Like we had a police escort and all the things. But I remember going through that going, this could be nuts. Like we could have a beer bottle go through a window right now, ⁓ on our way to the airport. And so that's ironically what I remember more of than the goal, non goal. And ⁓ you know, the way things sit. ⁓ They're never taking our Stanley Cup away. And as far as I'm concerned, like it's not a goal and what are you gonna do about it? I I was always curious what the reaction on the bench was. Cause if I remember right, play just continued. It wasn't as if play stopped. Yeah. But that's that kind of unfortunately or f speaks the point. Like we it was just like, ⁓ well, that was a save and a close oper like it was a great scoring chance that wasn't a goal. And so we just kept playing. Ultimately, ⁓ You know, very fortunate for the overtime victory. And, you know, th the interesting thing, and I'm gonna drive this a little bit of a direction because I think it's important, is that what was game seven like? And we got you know, that was the beauty of having a great regular season. Like we had game seven at home. And so June seventh, ⁓ it is hotter than can be in Florida. I mean it humidity is like you can cut it with a knife. ⁓ Morningskate was very silent. It was it was it had chatter, but not like it wasn't a lot there wasn't a lot of coaching going on because the momentum or the the the understanding of how momentous this opportunity was was understood in the room and it was like kind of quiet where it was eerie, but it was like I'm not gonna break this silence with small talk. And so pre-game skate was tight, it had a snap to it, but it was quiet. Everybody left. It was quiet. We got went back to the Marriott Hotel, which is a I don't know how far, the older Marriott. Now there's two of them. Let's say a five or six hundred yard walk. we all were staying. So we had our our room with all the things in it, food and games and stuff. Had lunch, went to bed. And this is when nobody had a ⁓ iPhone. You had an ⁓ AirPod or whatever with the little spinny dial you do with this. And so I had this. music downloaded that I'm gonna I'm like I know it's gonna be hard to sleep an accorded, you know, earphones. And so I'm listening to like freaking Enya or something to try to go to bed. And I'm rooming with Nolan Pratt. And so I'm laying there, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm closing my eyes, just trying to be like, just let me get a little sleep here. Finally I just I can't take it anymore. It's like I look over, I'm like, are you up? And he's like, Yep. I'm like, do you just want to go down to the team room? So we go down to the team room. There's a couple players within like You know, 40 minutes, we I think we have about half the team down there. Everyone's just nervous, pent up energy. But I've it was like good, positive, like we got this. Like we're going to win. So we we, you know, guys are rolling down and goofing off and having a joke and whatnot. The funny thing is, so I walked that 600 yards or whatever in a suit, ⁓ and I was wearing a blue shirt, like your your classic blue shirt. Well, that blue shirt was the color of this shirt by the time I'd walked. It was so frickin' hot. And ⁓ I mean, I just remember that. I remember just walking to the rink and I was laughing. Like I I can't believe how sweaty I am. I just walked, you know, not that far. And I should be in pretty darn good shape. So it's not that I'm, you know, fatigued here. And so we go through all the things and I just remember sitting there and being like, There's just no way we're losing this hockey game. Like it's just not possible. And so when we went into the locker room up after two periods, it it there were some words said that effective point was that this is over. Like this is over. Like I don't care, I don't care what has to happen in the next 20 minutes and who has to do it. Like there is a zero and I mean zero percent chance we're losing this hockey game. And I don't know, maybe Calgary went in with the same amount of confidence and and whatnot, but The thing that was neat about this calm silence is the amount of confidence that was just percolated through the room, or that at least I felt from my perspective, like I knew coming in after two periods that it was over. I'm like, we are winning this hockey game. Like there's just no there's no other outcome that is possible. and that was a pretty cool experience before the really cool experience. Well You win the cup. What did you do with the with your day with the cup? So I was so freaking lucky and I don't know why. I actually had it for two days. ⁓ and I don't know if it was because I was kind to the office staff or if it was just travel logistics worked out well. Or at least I had it two nights. And so it's funny, they give you and probably a PDF text now, but they give you a packet of like, hey, here's all the things that's gonna happen. Here's some things to think about. And they walk you through this. and you think you read these things, and I'm like, I know you're reading them and you think they're never gonna happen to you, but they're going to, just so we're clear, they're gonna happen to you. Said, all right, well, whatever. And one of the things on there that I looked at, and they're like, if you fall off your schedule, skip something and get back on track. It's better to disappoint one person or one entity than to disappoint everyone all day. And I was like, ⁓ that sounds hard. And so I was gonna get the cup at about, I think it was maybe like six o'clock at night. It was gonna come in and I was gonna take it to the fire department. My tr my trainer, since I was ten years old, ⁓ also is a fireman. And he literally means the world to me. Like he is a major factor to why I got where I was. ⁓ his name is Kevin Ziegler and I I wouldn't be on this podcast without him. And ⁓ the first thing was the plane was delayed and then I was gonna go to this next place to the next place and ⁓ it was delayed like an hour and a half and I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, like this is freaking really like am I gonna skip my trainer? Like one of the most important people? Or am I gonna like how am I gonna do this? So I call him and and it I'm like Kevin, like it's late. And he's gonna be with me the next day too. So I'm going to see Kevin. So I don't want it to make sound like I'm not gonna spend it with Kevin, but I'm not gonna give it back to the fireman And I'm like, this is really difficult. And so I just tell him, I'm like, hey, bud, I'm super sorry, but like I have to skip this and I gotta move on to the next thing. I end up at dinner that night. I had two different dinners planned and one was very structured and one was unstructured. The first night was the unstructured one. I didn't even tell the restaurant I was bringing the Stanley Cup. And ⁓ it's this restaurant in in this area called Uptown in Minneapolis and I walk down this hallway and there's like a 15-year-old ⁓ hostess there and I'm holding like she thinks I'm carrying a fire hydrogen off the street. Like she has no way. She's looking at me like I we might need security right now. This guy's what the heck? And I'm like, hey, Clymer table for 10. And she's again, so she's looking at me, she's like, points to this table way in the corner. And I'm like, never done this to this to that point in my life, and never since. I was like, I'm not taking that one. See that one in the middle? I'm taking that one. And she's like, okay, now I've got this guy who's got a fire hydrant telling me where he's gonna sit. And the manager comes over, he's like, Yep, you go right there in the middle. And that's so it was funny, but she's like So I have ⁓ kind of my my my family's with me and my nucleus of some really close friends. Mark Parrish was there, Eric Rasmussen was there. I believe Brett Hedekin came that night. I know Brett Hedekin came that night, and we just had kind of a a unscripted evening with the cup. The next day I had a very scripted, I was, you know, gonna go brought it back to the youth association so the community could see it. I brought it to a sporting goods store that sponsored, you know, every team in Bloomington every single year. ⁓ I had lunch with my two grandmas out of the Stanley Cup. I brought it to our golf club to share it with the members. And the maybe the neatest thing or the the the thing I'm I'm I probably had the most fun doing. ⁓ I had a party after or a a Kind of a happy hour of sorts, ⁓ at Olympic Hills Golf Club where I was a member at the time, and I invited every player and parent and coach I'd ever played with in youth hockey. And so my mic coach showed up. His name was George Conick. He played for the North Stars. ⁓ I hadn't seen George in 20 years. And that was really neat because, you know, it takes a village, right? Like it you can't get to the NHL by yourself. And sure you You know, it's really hard for single family or single parent family to put a kid, you know, into the upper restaurants of hockey just because it gotta get a lot of places. And so and and i I just really enjoyed seeing some of the parents and these teammates that I had in squirts or peewee's or bannems or high school or college or whatever, be able to come and share that or I and from my side I wanted to share it with them because I'm not in a position or I wasn't in the position I was because of Ben. I was there because of a lot of different forces and a lot of different families and a lot of different contributors. And I wanted to share that with them. And so that was my my favorite experience with the cup. And I would do that again in a heartbeat. I'd suggest that to every single player. ⁓ and to see the look on and I still get text messages all the time of people who will send me a picture from that day. And ironically, and I can even pull one up right now, Lee Brooks, who I played with in in high school, sent me one the other day and it just makes me laugh like ⁓ pulling up right now and and that's the picture ⁓ of that that's awesome that is that is sweet and that happened I mean that was July 30th so it wasn't the other day but it was it's not that long ago. ⁓ and I get those all the time as people are looking back through, you know, kind of their memory stack, whether it's on their phone or just mentally, ⁓ and and I took a great amount of pride and enjoy in in being able to say thank you to all those people. Now you recently posted a picture. I'm not sure the exact date, but it's your kids and your wife with the cup with you. How cool is it for your kids to go there and say, there's dad's name? You know, it's cool. I I don't I don't totally know what it means to them. ⁓ when we had our 20 year reunion, we went the Tampa did an amazing job and brought us back and and honored us and Very, very kind and you know, thank you to the Vindick family for doing that time and time again, frankly. But it was really neat because all of a sudden at that one they were old enough to kind of get it a little bit more. Like my my 14-year-old s my son who's 14 now was playing hockey and enough to get it. My youngest son also plays hockey and he was old enough to like, like this is a really big deal versus just kind of conversation around the home where there's just stuff around the home that that has the Stanley Cup on it. And so that was what I appreciate or what I I just enjoyed sharing it with them because I wasn't married. I didn't have kids. And it would be an an incredible experience to be able to do that when you were married, when you had children. but I also think it's really darn hard to be an NHL player and and be married and have a kid and and be a great dad and a great husband because you're living in a world of unbalance and and you have to almost. And so for the guys who are able to navigate that space and be great dads and great spouses, you know tip of the cap to them. I was trying to be single as long as I was as possible almost just because I knew the level of all in, you know, attitude I needed to be able to stay in the league. Now you had mentioned a little bit ago that one of your biggest regrets in a way was not being able to follow up the Stanley Cup win with another season. The NHL lockout happens. I had Eric Perrin on the podcast a couple months ago and he Echoed the same sentiment that all of a sudden the season's over and now there's no season to follow that up. What was your mindset going into the lockout? Did you think it was going to last all season and you end up going overseas? Yeah. When did you make the decision to go? The decision to go was probably made or I really started to push ⁓ on Brian Laden and the Octagon agency once we got into November. You know, for the first while, like frankly, like you play so long, training camp is like there in an instant. And I was okay not having training camp. Like I was like, I am mentally not prepared. I am I'm physically still exhausted. Like I needed another month was totally good. Like first month, no problem. now Bob Goodnow, who was leading the NHLP at the moment, had ⁓ who I think got a an unfair rap. ⁓ and how he handled things, I thought did a tremendous job of educating us and making us save with the understanding that we're gonna be without a job potentially for the whole year. And so I was I was very educated in what might happen. I I did have, you know, a plan to not play all year long. As things started to go longer and we were skating ⁓ together as a group here in Minnesota with with all the guys who who either live here or from here. You know, we had a good escape, but starts to get old. It was guys start to get ornery and you know, bickery and all the things that which is normal. And I just hit a point where I you know, I didn't have to worry about my kids in school. I wasn't worried about a spouse. ⁓ and I just said, Hey guys, like I gotta go somewhere. Like I need to go play for a couple of months. And so ⁓ they found me a job in the second league in Switzerland, ⁓ which was great. And so I went over there and played for you know better part of three months, I believe. ⁓ and that was, you know, it was difficult for sure to you know, understand that you're gonna go play in in a subpar league for subpar dollars and you're gonna waste a year of your career like that. That's expensive. ⁓ I don't think I understood that aspect of it because I was so in the moment, ⁓ and and just trying to be present. But as I look back on it, I'm like, man, that was a it was a heavy price to pay and we didn't really move a lot of the needle forward in terms of ⁓ the way that the governance structure ⁓ we lost probably more than we gained. Now after the lockout concluded, you guys came to an agreement, you ended up going to the Washington Capitals. Why did that happen? And I read some articles that you wanted to stay with Tampa, but you had the opportunity in Washington. Yeah, Jay Feaster was was awesome. He's like, and I, you know, now all of a sudden he's trying to manage a salary cap for the first time. And Jay called and was like, hey Ben, we're not gonna qualify you. It's nothing personal, it's just the business. And I've got to try to and I was Jay, I get it. Like totally you're trying to figure this all out. No, no harm, no foul. free agency opened up and we had some different opportunities. And the main ones were honestly with not good teams again, which hey makes sense. Like I'm very humble about that. ⁓ and so it was Chicago or or Washington. Brian was trying to push Chicago to give me two years. They wouldn't which probably ended up working out better, but maybe that would have been a better environment. I'm not sure. And so I ended up going ⁓ with Washington and we had a kind of a similar deal, young ragtag group. My first roommate in that first training camp was a Russian monster, you know, named Alex Ovechkin, where I'm like He was your roommate. He was my roommate and ⁓ he would play PlayStation at night with the Washington Capitals with himself built on the Washington Capitals. And I'm like, I'm like I feel like I'm in slapshot. Like this guy brought his toy cars and what in the world am I doing? And and like I say that very belovedly to Alex. Like he's such a joyful, exuberant child or big kid at that point. Yeah, he was awesome. But the first couple of days I'm like, what did I do wrong? Like, why am I with this frickin' kid? But that created ⁓ you know, a a special thing to be able to watch his, you know, career. you know, take off or or rocket ship off with the ⁓ amazing, you know, first year he had and every year he's had since. When you first saw his game, what was your impression? Not not much, to be honest. Like in training camp, it wasn't very good. And so he blended right in. Like he was very vanilla, like he was not lighting the world on fire. And I've heard Jeff Friesen talk about this a number of times, ⁓ who's on that New Jersey Devil team, by the way. ⁓ that you talked about that beat us. ⁓ but all of a sudden like the proverbial switch was flipped when the regular season. I'm pretty sure he scored two goals opening night. And he ended with like, I can't remember if it was like 54 or 63 or whatever it was, but it was a regular occurrence that Ovi was was scoring, that's for sure. I want to talk to about your career after hockey. Now You s you stayed in the game, you went overseas, you played in the KHL, but then you you re you retired. You went back to college. Yep, two and a half years. Was that a little bit of a I gotta swallow my pride and do this after being a professional hockey player for the better part of a decade? Yep. It was ⁓ it was extremely humbling. I knew I told my parents I would do it, but ⁓ if I'm ver being very honest. I did not actually think I would fulfill that promise. ⁓ I did not. ⁓ but realizing that I wanted to have life 2.0, I understood that that was something that needed to happen. I also thought I was trying to think big, and this might sound better now than it did in the time, but I thought, look, if our kids ever develop some sort of athletic talent, I want them to understand that an education is still important. And so at least if they see me go back to school. That they understand that despite the successes I had on the ice, that mom and dad live and breathe the importance of education. They don't just preach it. And so I went back to school. But a f a story about that that speaks to swallowing your pride. ⁓ two of ⁓ if it's okay. But the first one was the academic counselor when I walked in who dealt with the hockey team. I walked in, he was on the phone, his name's Chris Kords, and I Chris, and I give him a hard time about this all the time. So I don't mind telling this story. And he's on the phone, like kind of like big timing me a little bit. And and he's like, sit sit down. I'm like, really, dude? Like, okay, cool. I'll sit here and wait for you to finish your phone call. And he finishes call. He's like, okay, everything you need's right here. Just take this and you'll be out of here in two years. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, just calm the bleep down. I'm like, what is that? And you don't know me. And I'm and he's like, Well, this is your, you know, you're gonna get this the basically the easiest degree out the door. I figured it out. And I'm like, I don't want that. I'm like, I heard about this school with Carlson, their business school. I want to go to that one. He's like, you're not gonna get into that. And I'm like, that's all you had to say was you're not gonna get into that. And I'm getting into that. And so we redefined my class schedule so I could kind of duplicately serve the easiest path and the hardest path for a semester. I got a three point nine, I think, my first semester. Ted Leonsis, the owner of the capitals, wrote my ⁓ letter of recommendation. Thank you, Ted, for doing that. I'm Grateful to this day for doing that. And they let me in. And so I tease Chris all the time when I see him because he still works with the Gopher hockey team that, you know, don't tell someone they can't do something because they can. but the funny story, so after I went to my first day and it was like I drove home and I was it was like I was jet lagged. Like I I could barely drive home. My brain was just like, ⁓ my gosh, did I just think hard? 'Cause I'd stacked all my classes so I only went twice a week. So I went literally from eight of the morning to eight o'clock at night on Tuesday and Thursday. And I got home, I slept till like nine in the morning the next day and I was like, whoa, that was a lot. Like I'm my brain is not used to thinking and processing that hard for that extended period of time. But the hardest day of my entire college was Thursday morning. I remember putting my shoes on. ⁓ I remember looking at the garage door ⁓ from our, you know, area where all the coats and whatnot are and just thinking like, I don't want to go through that door. And if I quit, no one I mean, like my family, my wife will know my kids are too young. A couple of people will know, but like no one will know. But I know I have to go through that door. And so that was the hard every day got easier after that day. And so once I got in my car and started driving, I was like, this is what we're doing. And but it was you think 'cause you're older, you can do it faster, easier. Like, nope. You you just gotta put in the work and put in the hours. And it ended up becoming fun. Like I made a group of of college age friends who would be in my classes ⁓ for my th I wanna say it was my thirtieth or thirty fifth birthday. Gosh, I can't even remember now. ⁓ a bunch of college kids came out to the suburbs that we lived in and celebrated the birthday. My wife had reached out to them, which was super cool, like super kind of these kids, you know, to accept ⁓ you know, an older student who was retired from a career. And I I tried to sit in the front row of class, not to be a studious, because I figured if I'm in the front row, I could pretend everyone behind me looks just like me. I stand sit in the back row. I know everyone's younger than me and isn't like me. And so I I just chose to sit in the front and it was like helped me get over the fact that I was, you know, I was the oddball, you know, frankly. Ben, you're the managing partner at Abbey Street right now. What attracted you to finance and wealth management? Well, so go going back to Ted Leont's, you don't buy Ted a golf shirt. When you when you say thank you, ⁓ like that's not gonna mean anything to Ted. And so I at that point, I originally thought I wanted to be an agent. Then I realized I didn't want to go chase 14 year old kids around hockey ranks. Then I thought, you know, maybe I wanna be a GM. And I still would. I I would love that. Unfortunately, there's a very finite number of those jobs. And so when I was going back to school, I wanted to say thank you to Ted. I wrote a three year progression of what the Washington Capitals were with salary cap of their NHL team stats, years of free agency, all the stuff on Hershey, their minor league team, and of all their draft picks and said, okay, here's where you are today. Here's where you're gonna be a year. Here's where you're gonna be in another year. Here's how I would progress each summer as players achieve certain things. Here's salary structures that I think you can manage to and keep under, you know, the salary cap and still have a competitive team. ⁓ And the one thing in my in my thing that I will stick to to this day, I'm like, you need to do anything and everything you can to reverse the Philip Forsberg trade because this is going to go down as one of the worst trades in the history of your franchise. And it's in my and I still have that paper too. And it it it is. I mean, it's a it's a it's a shifting moment for the Nashville Predators, frankly. Anyway, so I'm I I go through all this and I'm then I'm sitting one day in a class, a portfolio management class. And instead of looking at players like this this chart that I'd built ⁓ that had asset classes, and I realized that I instead of having player names, I I can do the same thing or use and ⁓ facilitate the same part of my brain in finance as I could ⁓ wanting to be a general manager. And so that was my moment where I'm like, you know, the light went off and I said, look, I can I'm gonna do this. ⁓ I don't have to move. I can't. mean, I guess I can get fired kinda, not really. I mean, now I own the firm with a partner, but ⁓ I I don't ⁓ you know, it just felt like a pretty easy choice ⁓ at that point. It's been awesome. There's a lot of talk in the NHL right now, and I'm sure and I've and I've heard you on some other interviews. With the NHL salary cap, do teams in states with no state income tax have a competitive advantage? Now I had Victor Matheson on, who's an economist at Holy Cross. You've seen him on NPR, ESPN talk about this, and he felt it wasn't as big of an advantage, especially with the jock taxes that are out there. And how much of an advantage do these the the Floridas, the Nevadas, the Texas, Tennessees, how big of an advantage is it for teams in those states compared to Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, and other teams these who now have a wealth tax being implemented in the state of Washington for millionaires? How big of an advantage is that to your for your clients? Yep. ⁓ a vertical in our business that is our and our players. And so I deal in it all the time. And I'll tell you s the the shortest answer is it is a huge, huge advantage for those teams. Now, rewinding time back in in the era that I was playing, I don't think that it was because those teams were also bad. And so Dallas was the exception, I would say. But like Tampa was bad, Florida was bad. ⁓ and so many of these These cities weren't attractive because you didn't want to go there to die in your w your career, so to speak. ⁓ you'd rather go play for the Rangers and pay the Manhattan City tax. And so it is a now and the GMs and the owners have done a good job of of using that, leveraging it over the course of years, decades to build, you know, great teams. But it is a big deal. And I'll, you know, for one of the players, one of the things that we do when they hit free agency is we'll say, Okay, what are the offers that you have? We'll load them into our software, accounting for All the things, tax, cost of living. I mean, make no bones about it. To live in New York City is atrociously expensive. To live in Los Angeles is so expensive. San Jose, crazy expensive. ⁓ and one of the reasons I think Raleigh, North Carolina, has been attractive is the taxes are okay. Cost of living is very low. And they have a coach who i is very respected. Put those things together, I think you can get over the hurdle. But if you have a poor team, A horrible tax situation, probably a lousy media situation. You talked about Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal. Like if your team is lousy, you can't go to dinner in Toronto Toronto with your family. Like people are stopping at your table going, Hey, like, why did you guys just lose? Well, my son is trying to eat chicken fingers, bud. Like, just leave me alone for a second. Like, and so you you stack all those things on top of one another, it becomes a problem. ⁓ and so we've had, you know, times where we've done all this and said, Hey, look, and a couple summers ago. We had a player that was had an opportunity, a number of different teams that came down to a Canadian based team that was moderate cost of living. So cost of living wasn't atrocious, but the tax rate versus a lower salary in a tax free environment. And he didn't want to go to Canada because he'd heard all the struggles that come with it from media, the travel. I mean, the travel is a big deal. Crossing the border and getting home and in your bed is an extra, you know, quantifiable, you know, erosion of your sleep. And you do that a lot. And so when I was able to break it down and say, hey, look, like you're actually gonna make more money if you play in that lower tax environment, despite the fact that on your, you know, your average value of your contract is gonna be lower, but you're gonna have more money in your genes. And he felt tremendously good about that because he didn't want to sign with that Canadian team. ⁓ and so if if people want to be naive to that fact, that's fine. Like you can believe the world's flat too. I I don't care. I'm not gonna yell the clouds. ⁓ but it it 100% comes into the decision-making process ⁓ the way the world sits today. There are some sports columnists calling for the NHL to have some kind of I don't know the best way to put this, but some kind of sliding effect to where a team in Tampa's salary cap might be $100 million, but a team in Vancouver can spend to $115. Yeah. You factor in exchange rates, you factor in taxes. Do you think that will ever happen and do you think the players will ever let that fly? So I ironically, I don't think it's a player issue. I think it's a bylaw within the owner's agreements with one another. And and it doesn't have to go through the NHLPA? Yeah, I'm sure it would, but like let's just take let's just let's just think about this for a sec. So let's go you've got Florida, Tampa, Dallas, ⁓ which they'll Probably be a team in Houston at some point, but like just take all the tax free states and you could say Tennessee, but there's a jock tax. You say Washington State, that's changing. do you think that those owners are going to sign up? The day that that rule goes into effect, their franchise is going to be worth less. These are hardened businessmen. There is not a day that they don't sue the lights out, ⁓ Gary Bettman and all the other owners. Like it sounds, yeah, like let's be fair and equal. Sports is not built on fair and equal. Sports is built on trying to find an edge in any different place they can, whether it's an undervalued free agent or a goaltender is coming off a knee surgery that they think went well and the other team is getting rid of them because they think it went poorly. Like they're there it sounds awesome. I just don't see it happening. It just it seems like a fairy tale to me. And I just don't believe in Santa Claus, but he is not real. Now what mistakes do you see young athletes make? They're making money. You were in the situation where all of a sudden you go from being a normal person to making big time dollars. Yeah. What mistakes do you commonly see young athletes make the first time they they come into money? Yeah, I think the number one thing is you have to know how much you spend. And and that sounds a little counterintuitive like, well what what do you mean? Like what about what I say? Well If you make ten million dollars, you spend five and you spend five in taxes, like who cares? Like you you have nothing left over. If you make a million bucks and you can save four hundred thousand, you can live off a hundred, assuming your tax rate's fifty percent or whatever. ⁓ that's a big deal. And so a big thing that we've tried to do at Abbey Street, the company that I own, ⁓ is educate players and education, education, education. It's hard sometimes because you might get you know, some of your most successful players don't have a a college education. That's not to say that they're not smart, but they don't have the formal education. And so I believe it's incumbent upon people in their life, whoever that might be, can change, but to help educate them in a slow process, like you have to be respectful of like they probably don't care a ton about the Federal Reserve raising interest rates. ⁓ and I get that. However, if you can play a little bit of a correlation, like, hey, you know, we just bought that house over here and the interest rate, the amount of the cost to borrow the money. went up because this entity did this. And that might be enough for one meeting. But I believe that you have to show them what their cash flow is. And so we send all of our players ⁓ expense reports at the start of every single month. And so one of my fears for players, and I've heard this is like I've heard someone at the back of the bus be like, I just I just don't know where it all goes. And that makes my skin crawl. And I want our players to know where every single penny goes. And if they know where they're spending their money and I can show them how much they're saving every single month. we're gonna start to build a positive ⁓ you know momentum for them having life after hockey, not being required to work. The other thing about it is is all of these players, or a vast majority of them, are type A psychopaths that have been achievers their whole life. Well why don't we use that to to our advantage for them? And so I sit down at the beginning of the year with our players and say, okay, you're gonna make X this year. Your tax rates, Y. You know, training costs, your sunk costs of hockey, we can kind of quantify. We know how much your agent fees are gonna be, so on and so forth. I can I can ⁓ remove what I call hockey related expenses. And I say, Well, how much do you think you can save this year? And then try to send them updates. Hey, our goal was to save, you know, two point four million dollars this year. Where are we at? ⁓ and they're competitive and they've been achievers. And it turns out when you challenge a competitive person, they generally win. The same way that when Chris Kords told me I couldn't get into Carlson, I was gonna get into Carlson. And so I just think, you know, trying to, you know, have a good line of communication, ⁓ and and then rely upon a little bit of a sage wisdom where I I make fun of my experiences, you know, all the time and I I joke like I love to golf and I said, Look You should spend your money where you spend your time. And so if you're gonna spend time golfing, sure you can join a country club. That's awesome. But don't join a country club and buy a boat. Like you can only use these assets at the same time, same summer months. Like let's just wait. At some point you can have enough where you can adjoin you can afford a country club and a fishing boat, surf boat, whatever it may be. But if they're both competing for your time, let's just, you know, let's crawl, then let's walk, and then maybe we'll be fortunate enough to be able to run later. But Education, cash flow, and then you just have to have a great, you know, line of communication with the younger players in particular, because I want them to call me and text me and bother me when they're having, you know, a decision that they're thinking about. The last thing I want to do is learn after the fact, hey, I just made this colossal purchase, which may have been an error, and maybe I can help structure it a little bit differently. And so those are the pillars of things that I think the young players ⁓ who are the most successful have in their corner. Ben, tell us how you can find Abbey Street. Yeah, you can find Abbey Street, obviously on the internet. It's ⁓ ABBEY Street.com. ⁓ you can certainly reach me in a number of different ways on that platform, social media as well. And ⁓ it's been a joy, you know, having this second part of my career. I love that I can marry a little bit of it with the first part of my career. I mean, some of the stories that I tell my past to them to try to avoid some of those pitfalls are hilarious. And some of the things they ask me, ⁓ I know make me laugh and it it gives me a lot of joy when I drive home at the end of the day to say, hey, look, like we can't do that. Like that's a bad mistake. I understand it sounds good in a vacuum. However, let's ⁓ understand how this is gonna work, you know, in a year, in five years, in ten years. And so really fun to be able to work with people there. And it's been just a treat ⁓ to have career two point ⁓ be as much fun as career one point ⁓ We're gonna put that link to Abbey Street in the show notes, but Ben You've taken a lot of time today. Can't thank you enough, but we we have two minutes in the penalty box. I'm the timekeeper. I just opened the door. I have two minutes of rapid fire questions. First of all, what's your current golf handicap? Ooh, I think I'm plus one in change. You're plus one? Yes. That's best round you've ever shot. Sixty-three. What course? Sixty-four, actually. Sixty-four course record at Lito. ⁓ it's at Sand Valley. Wow. Favorite NHL City? ⁓ Montreal. The toughest fight you've ever had. Toughest fight I ever had was when I pulled Bob Probert out of a pile in Chicago and I didn't have to fight Pro Bob Bob Probert, but I felt like he could understand that this young kid was pretty much wet in his pants at the moment. Did you realize it was Bob Probert at the time? Or did you just jersey? I just reached into the pile and pulled the first guy out and he looked at me and he had these this look of death in his eyes, and then I think he saw my eyes and said, I'm not it's not worth breaking my hand against this kid's head. The funniest teammate you've been you've been with. Andre Waugh's pretty funny. What teammate had the worst taste in music? it might actually be OV. ⁓ Yeah, I mean techno and all the things. ⁓ we'll go with OV. Pre-game meal. ⁓ you know, pretty simple. You know, some pasta, some protein, nothing crazy. What's the strangest thing that you saw when you played in the KHL? I mean, that is a longer than two minute discussion. That world is upside down and I could not be more thankful to live in America. And it it taught me what freedom was. And so for that I'm forever grateful. Eric Perrin said the exact same thing. It's it's funny the butt guys both said that. One rule in the NHL that you would change. One rule in the NHL. I think that ⁓ if they want to continue to increase scoring, if you ⁓ didn't allow icings when you're shorthanded. That increased scoring. Mine is no hand I I would I would not allow hand passes in the defensive zone. Yeah. I get that. Okay, you're on Gilligan's Island and the professor can't build you a boat. You're on a deserted island. What's one teammate you would want on the island with you? Gosh. You know, he's not a teammate, but ⁓ Brent Burns and whatever the heck he's got in that backpack of his, like he's gotta have enough stuff that we can be okay. Underrated hockey towns, college or pro. Underrated hockey town. I mean, I think that Houston ha is ripe to have a team. That would be one that I think certainly could. ⁓ you know, we have to get a team back to to Scottsdale. Have to. Like that is to me, if I'm Gary Bettman, I'm running to those two cities ⁓ because they are just plump with h passionate hockey fans. The economics in the arena situation just need to work better. Phoenix having that arena all the way out in Glendale made absolutely no sense. It would be like having the the Minnesota Wild play in Lake Elmo. It makes no sense. I it it kills me. And I heard Dallas is moving out of downtown to a similar situation, which worries me for that franchise. I agree. Yeah, they're moving out the Plano.. You and your wife are competing. Complete this sentence. My wife is better than me at basketball. ⁓ really? Kills me. And she would kill you too, even if you played basketball. I've seen her finish a grown man who played like high school basketball in horse, holding one of our children in one hand, finishing him like this, and just walking away. And I am dying laughing as this guy's soul is crushed. That is awesome. Final question, Ben. Favorite vacation spot? Hawaii, no question about it. Was married in Hawaii. It is my happy place and w just a level of peace and And ⁓ just, you know, slow life down, ⁓ different than any other place in the world. Any particular island? The big island. We love going to Kona. it's it's without question our my not only my happy place, my wife's happy place, but our our family's favorite spot for vacation. Ben, I you've taken ninety minutes of your time. I can't thank you enough for doing this. It's been an absolute blast. You've been able to recap everything from growing up in Minnesota To win in the cup to what you're doing now with Abbey Street. First of all, thank you for your time and continued success over at Abbey Street. And thanks again. Would love to have you on the podcast again. Yeah, Jason, thank you. I had a blast, you know, to be able to think of I just don't think about a lot of this stuff a lot. So be able to, you know, stir up some of those memories and and laugh is is an absolute treat. So thank you for having me. Love to join you again in the future. Well, we are going to be back with another episode of Backchecking the Bolts. We are going to preview the opener against the New York Rangers coming up on Thursday. Justin Godfrey will be back. You can read him each and every day ⁓ www.raudcharge.com. For Ben and Justin, I'm Jason Linkes.. Thanks for joining us. Please hit that like and subscribe button and go bolts. Thank you for listening to Backchecking the Bolts. We are free and available on all platforms, including Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Amazon, YouTube, and Deezer. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can follow Justin on Blue Sky at Rawcharge.com. You can follow the show on X at Tampa underscore bolts underscore pod and on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube at Back CheckingTheBolts. If you're interested in advertising on the show or partnering with us, You can find more information in the show notes or email Jason at backcheckingthebolts at yahoo.com.