Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Frankenstein with Costume Designer, Kate Hawley - Season Six Premiere

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Frankenstein with Costume Designer, Kate Hawley - Season Six Premiere · The Art of Costume Podcast

• 0:06
  Hello and welcome to the Art Costume Podcast.
• 0:08
  I'm Mose with Joy Glass. And I'm Spencer Williams, thank
• 0:11
  you so much for joining us for our Season 6 premiere of the Art
• 0:14
  of Costume podcast. Hey, new season.
• 0:18
  Yeah. New chairs.
• 0:19
  New chairs, new chairs. We've been talking about getting
• 0:22
  chairs for a whole year now. And we finally, we finally did
• 0:25
  it this holiday season. Literal whole year.
• 0:28
  Yeah, we've been moving my furniture around for a little
• 0:30
  too long, so we bit the bullet. So good to see you happy.
• 0:34
  Happy 2026 to you. Happy. 2026 Happy New Year.
• 0:39
  We have a big season ahead of us.
• 0:41
  We do. We we met up the other day to
• 0:43
  talk about what we wanted to cover and yeah, it's quite a
• 0:47
  bit. We're starting the year off with
• 0:49
  a bang, Elizabeth. What are we talking about in our
• 0:52
  very first episode, An episode that you have all been clamoring
• 0:55
  for for months now and we've just been making you wait, just
• 1:00
  making you yearn for it? Yes, this week we watched
• 1:05
  Frankenstein, a film by Guillermo del Toro.
• 1:08
  I totally forgot that the book was next to me when I was
• 1:11
  teasing I. I wondered.
• 1:13
  I wondered. Yes, we're finally talking about
• 1:16
  Frankenstein. It is one of my favorite films
• 1:19
  of 2025. And obviously the costumes by
• 1:23
  costume designer Kate Hawley are just to die for and just
• 1:27
  literally everything this podcast is about, so.
• 1:30
  It really is. It really is.
• 1:32
  So before we dive into it, I think I'll give a quick little
• 1:35
  summary. Yeah, we'll, we'll jump right
• 1:37
  in. Frankenstein was directed by one
• 1:41
  of our favorites, Guillermo del Toro, whom it was who has won
• 1:45
  three Academy Awards in his lifetime.
• 1:48
  You know him for some of his noble works such as Pan's
• 1:50
  Labyrinth, Kronos Mimic, Pacific Rim, Crimson Peak, which is a
• 1:55
  favorite of ours. And we have a great episode on
• 1:57
  Shape of Water, which I finally saw the other day and loved it
• 2:01
  so much. And Nightmare Ellie, another
• 2:04
  film which we've done a great episode on with costume designer
• 2:07
  Louis Cicada and Pinocchio. Doctor Victor Frankenstein, a
• 2:11
  brilliant but egotistical scientist, brings a creature to
• 2:14
  life in a monstrous experiment that ultimately leads to the
• 2:17
  undoing of both the creator and his tragic creation.
• 2:22
  And that is Frankenstein. That is Frankenstein.
• 2:25
  If you haven't seen it and you have a Netflix subscription,
• 2:30
  what are you doing? Let's go It is so good so we're.
• 2:34
  Good I I love it 'cause it's a much more faithful adaptation of
• 2:39
  the book than I think has ever been made before.
• 2:42
  And Guillermo del Toro, Kate Holley, the entire crew just
• 2:47
  crushed it. Literally production designer
• 2:50
  Tamara Mike Hill, who does makeup and prosthetics.
• 2:54
  Like it just feels so operatic and synchronized between all
• 2:58
  these departments. I'm like, this is what movie
• 3:01
  making is about, honestly. That very tactile, practical,
• 3:05
  working with your hands element that we love so much.
• 3:07
  No AI yeah, just this is what movie making is all about and it
• 3:12
  would. Honestly watching this film and
• 3:14
  preparing for this episode was re energizing for me and
• 3:17
  exciting to get back into the podcast.
• 3:19
  Insane because there's just there's been so much in the
• 3:22
  industry lately about OK, like what are the bounds of AI here
• 3:27
  and where is its place? And I feel like a lot of people
• 3:31
  are like, oh, this is the future.
• 3:32
  And it's like, it's, it's not you're, you're not going to get
• 3:35
  these gorgeous films with AI. You're just not.
• 3:39
  Yeah, exactly. But let's go behind the costumes
• 3:44
  with, as we mentioned before, costume designer Kate Holly.
• 3:48
  You will know her work from Pacific Rim, Crimson Peak, Edge
• 3:52
  of Tomorrow, Suicide Squad and The Lord of the Rings, The Rings
• 3:57
  of Power, for which she got an Emmy nomination.
• 4:00
  She sure did, she's a friend of the show.
• 4:02
  We did a Crimson Peak episode with her.
• 4:05
  Also if you go on YouTube and I think it's shared on our YouTube
• 4:07
  video, I did a interview with her about the Rings of Power
• 4:11
  season 1 at the Costume designers Guild.
• 4:13
  It's floating on YouTube somewhere.
• 4:16
  I then also did Comic Con with her and I've also spent the past
• 4:21
  week with her so. You literally have like every.
• 4:25
  Single day, you have not been home.
• 4:26
  So yeah, I've not been home because there's been a great new
• 4:30
  exhibition in Los Angeles showing the work of
• 4:34
  Frankenstein, all the costumes, jewelry, props to the production
• 4:39
  design, makeup, prosthetics. So I got to meet up with Kate
• 4:42
  Teller Day and show me around and you know, we've done lunch
• 4:46
  and whatnot and she's just been a become a really good friend of
• 4:48
  mine, a friend of the podcast. So I've just so happy and so
• 4:52
  proud of her. But to that point, I'm so
• 4:55
  excited to say that in our season premiere, season 6, we
• 5:00
  always love to give you a little gift.
• 5:02
  So today, costume designer Kate Holley is here with us to talk
• 5:06
  about Frankenstein, and we get into everything.
• 5:11
  Everything. We talk about the use of color,
• 5:14
  specially red and white and green jewelry, the collaboration
• 5:20
  with Tiffany's and. Collaboration with other
• 5:23
  departments. Departments, del Toro, her crew,
• 5:26
  we we get into it all. So it's a longer episode today,
• 5:29
  but I know this is what you've all been yearning for, so.
• 5:33
  Kate had so much to say, so much wonderful information about her
• 5:37
  process. She's such an incredible artist.
• 5:38
  So get comfortable and enjoy this incredible conversation of
• 5:44
  costume designer Kate Holley. And after, we're going to take a
• 5:47
  little break and we'll come back and we'll wrap up with a round
• 5:50
  of our favorite game and talk about our next episode.
• 5:53
  Yes, we are so happy to welcome back one of our dear friends.
• 6:02
  She was on the podcast a couple years ago.
• 6:04
  Talk about one of our favorite films, Crimson PK.
• 6:09
  Now she is a Critics Choice Award winner, a nominee of the
• 6:13
  Costume Designers Guild this year for her work on the film
• 6:16
  Frankenstein. Please welcome back our friend,
• 6:19
  costume designer Kate Hawley. Hi, Kate.
• 6:22
  It's so good to see you. I feel like seeing you more than
• 6:24
  any other point I like. But but not without joy,
• 6:28
  darling. Not without joy, that's.
• 6:30
  Sweet yeah, for all the listeners, Kate and I have spent
• 6:33
  four out of five days together this week.
• 6:36
  I don't know, we've been together almost every day, but
• 6:38
  it's been so fun. I.
• 6:39
  Research. Research.
• 6:40
  Always research. Yeah, it's research.
• 6:42
  We got to go to the new exhibition, which by the time
• 6:44
  this comes out, it would have been closed.
• 6:46
  But it was beautiful in Los Angeles, showing all the
• 6:48
  costumes. And also, Kate and I had like
• 6:51
  multiple lunches and dinners and drinks and whatnot.
• 6:54
  Work and. Research.
• 6:55
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 6:56
  Because. Because I miss you.
• 6:57
  Honestly, it's not fair that I don't get to see you as often.
• 7:00
  What? Do you put them in the Boo Boo
• 7:01
  like I just carry them and as a comfort toy?
• 7:04
  Not quite, but you know, you realize there's so many
• 7:07
  conversations to be had and and when, you know, I was just
• 7:10
  saying to Spencer earlier, I don't get many opportunities to
• 7:14
  come through LA and spend time with colleagues and be back in
• 7:16
  the world of, you know, all my wonderful contemporaries and
• 7:19
  that. So when you do and especially in
• 7:20
  this insane thing called award season, it's really lovely to
• 7:24
  have though grab those real conversations and talk about
• 7:27
  challenges, talk about the art of it.
• 7:29
  How do we, you know, keep supporting that?
• 7:31
  So, and that's getting a bit deep too early on, but it's all
• 7:35
  of it. And and, of course, a good
• 7:37
  coffee, yeah. Yes, yeah, museums and all sorts
• 7:41
  of research and whatnot. It was so, so good to see you
• 7:44
  it. Is so great to have you here and
• 7:48
  getting out of Frankenstein. We are such big fans.
• 7:51
  It was honestly maybe one of my favorite movies of the year.
• 7:56
  And before we dive into those costumes, what has been your
• 8:01
  experience post release of the movie and seeing such an
• 8:06
  incredibly positive audience reaction to Frankenstein?
• 8:11
  I think that's always overwhelming.
• 8:12
  I mean, you're talking to someone who's had her head cut
• 8:14
  off numerous times in their life.
• 8:17
  You know, I think, you know, it's the reality of working.
• 8:19
  But I think, you know, we realize how special it was the
• 8:25
  project, but also there was not an undue amount of pressure.
• 8:27
  Both Tamara and I talk about that.
• 8:29
  In fact, everybody on the team, you know, we were so aware of
• 8:33
  how important this project was to Guillermo, you know, and we
• 8:37
  didn't want to fuck it up for one of the better words, you
• 8:40
  know, and then so you put all your effort into that and and it
• 8:42
  was, you know, it wasn't without as challenges, but over It was a
• 8:45
  joyous thing. You know, you can't always
• 8:47
  predict what happens to these projects that you love.
• 8:50
  You know, we pour everything into it.
• 8:52
  We can't dictate how that happens.
• 8:54
  But I think in this current age of, you know, the world shifting
• 9:00
  as fast as it is, you know, Guillermo's hit upon something
• 9:03
  that's resonates and is very deep with everybody.
• 9:06
  So I think we're in a unique time and a time where things
• 9:10
  have to be addressed. And and he's a champion of the
• 9:14
  arts. He's out there like a Mexican
• 9:16
  Joan of Arc, you know, you know, championing the art and that.
• 9:21
  So, and, and then when we've had this overwhelming reaction,
• 9:24
  there's, there's it's a very emotional response, you know,
• 9:28
  and, and also, you know, and Guillermo talked about this,
• 9:30
  there's a, he's, he's described as a postpartum depression for
• 9:34
  him. That would be a major thing
• 9:36
  considering he's had this as a lifelong project.
• 9:38
  But I think all of us, it was such a an intense, you know, we
• 9:42
  all knew each other, all sort of a family together and and work.
• 9:47
  But I think all of us feel the same thing.
• 9:48
  You know, there's a loss and you know, it's a gift that he's
• 9:51
  given to everybody. But with that, that's the end of
• 9:54
  the journey, you know, So it's a mixed feeling.
• 9:57
  But of course, we're thrilled that everybody loves it.
• 9:58
  There's nothing worse than people avoiding you in town
• 10:01
  going, Oh, that was shit. But it happens.
• 10:04
  I've been on that. Side that Frankenstein one, that
• 10:06
  was interesting, yeah. Something that we could all
• 10:09
  celebrate together. You know, everyone's work's
• 10:11
  being recognized and you know, it's wonderful to celebrate what
• 10:14
  Tamara's work's done. You know, all and all our all
• 10:18
  our work. It's nothing nicer than still
• 10:20
  walking down the path together. True.
• 10:23
  And with my team, you know, it's, it's thrilled.
• 10:26
  They, you know, again, you know, we all, everybody, everybody in
• 10:30
  this business works so hard and jumps to never ending endless
• 10:34
  heights to achieve things. You know, I, I think that that
• 10:38
  is the same for everybody. Everybody's done their job more
• 10:42
  than done their job. And I just know my, my crew, you
• 10:45
  know, we've, we've done a few things together now, you know,
• 10:48
  with new people as well. And I think they're just
• 10:50
  thrilled that their work, their particular craft, you know, it's
• 10:53
  not just the ideas, it's the, the, the end result, which is
• 10:58
  handled by so many amazing craftspeople on this film
• 11:01
  through both sets and costumes that have their work recognized.
• 11:04
  So we're celebrating together, really.
• 11:06
  Yeah, yeah, No, we're so happy for you and the entire crew and
• 11:09
  also Tamara and Mike Hill. And yeah, amazing.
• 11:12
  Guillermo I mean, it's just such, so many artisans are being
• 11:15
  recognized for this film and I just, I couldn't be happier,
• 11:17
  which is why we're so excited to get into this.
• 11:19
  Well, he elevates. He elevates all of us, you know.
• 11:22
  Well, let's let's start with Guillermo.
• 11:23
  I was going to ask you, you know, this is your 3rd
• 11:26
  collaboration with Guillermo del Toro.
• 11:28
  Of course we have Pacific Rim and Crimp City 3 1/2.
• 11:32
  We'll talk about the half. But it's, it's not a, it's not a
• 11:37
  secret that Frankenstein has been something that Guillermo
• 11:40
  del Toro has been want to do for a good majority of his life.
• 11:44
  And now it's here and it's it's something that a lot of people
• 11:48
  are loving. So tell us about those initial
• 11:50
  conversations of Guillermo and when it finally it's time we're
• 11:53
  doing Frankenstein. He must have, said Kate.
• 11:55
  It's time to get going. There's a few of those and I got
• 11:58
  that a few times. It was time to get going and
• 12:00
  then there was another year passed by.
• 12:03
  You know, you wait for Guillermo.
• 12:05
  That's the difference. You know, you wait for him
• 12:07
  sometimes, you know, that's been a challenge, but it's worth it.
• 12:11
  You know, I, I respond much more.
• 12:13
  You know, when you're working with Gemma, you're allowed to
• 12:15
  thrive and, and he respects the process.
• 12:18
  I mean, he's, you know, he's a benevolent dictator.
• 12:20
  He would describe himself as, you know, linear process, but
• 12:25
  you know, he he loves the art and and, you know, when he was
• 12:29
  talking about he, he with the first time we all received the
• 12:32
  script, I think we're all bawling our eyes out.
• 12:35
  And then, you know, and then the initial, because it, it
• 12:38
  captured, you know, for me, a lot of the tone and mood of the
• 12:42
  novel, you know, that that sense of utter loneliness, the
• 12:45
  melancholy nature, untamed and shifting.
• 12:49
  And, you know, just there were so many aspects of that novel.
• 12:52
  And then what he brought to it within the script himself.
• 12:55
  So it was, it's a lush, meaty, you know, script and that's
• 13:00
  always my Bible. So Gemo script and what he talks
• 13:03
  about is where I start. And you know, there were several
• 13:07
  things that he was sort of shaping, you know, still shaping
• 13:10
  as we were working, but we knew it was going to be operatic.
• 13:13
  You know, that in melodramatic, he wasn't shy of using that word
• 13:18
  and that, you know, religion would played a huge, you know,
• 13:20
  images of religion mythology. You know, this was this is a
• 13:24
  very heightened world that we're reading.
• 13:27
  And you're actually the first sort of script was even denser,
• 13:31
  you know, when there was many other layers to all of them
• 13:33
  gorgeous. And and so, you know, and red
• 13:37
  was a very strong image. You know, Gamo works a lot with
• 13:40
  a sort of plain colour palette, but the red was a major one.
• 13:43
  We'll go back into that because that's a whole discussion
• 13:45
  itself. But you know, certain things he
• 13:48
  was playing with the idea of what period at the time, you
• 13:51
  know, the the script could be in any place.
• 13:53
  And we know Mary Shelley wrote and I think it was 1819, 18 or
• 13:57
  1818, she was 19, those two dates always and then actually
• 14:02
  set the novel in I think 1790 so firmly in the 18th century.
• 14:06
  And, you know, we did discuss all of that.
• 14:08
  And then he came back and he firmly went, no, I definitely
• 14:11
  want to move it into the period of the Crimean War.
• 14:15
  And, you know, I, you know, you have the backdrop of the
• 14:19
  industrial world really taking form and taking off.
• 14:24
  You have surgery in the world of the Crimean War.
• 14:26
  It's a modern world, you know, this world of nature and God is
• 14:30
  sort of being left behind and this new world's taking over.
• 14:32
  And he said to me, I want it to feel modern, even though we're
• 14:36
  in a period. I don't want a monochromatic
• 14:40
  color scheme. You know, that all, especially
• 14:41
  when you look at the 1850s, you sort of go, oh, Dickensian is
• 14:45
  what we kind of, you know, it's hard to sort of look at Victoria
• 14:48
  and not, you know, an Italian. Something set in Italy in the
• 14:51
  1850s will feel very different, you know, And then this is how
• 14:54
  do I, how do we translate the qualities of the novel and
• 14:58
  Guillemo script most importantly, and that kind of
• 15:01
  gothic world, how do we sort of shift it into this world?
• 15:04
  So I think that was the biggest initial challenge.
• 15:06
  So that and the themes of mythology and nature were all
• 15:10
  sort of part of that. And then started getting into
• 15:12
  character conversations. So we're all starting together.
• 15:15
  You know, Tamara was there starting on her boat.
• 15:20
  Yeah. And, you know, so you, you're
• 15:23
  you never start in one place. You might.
• 15:25
  I I tend to start with sometimes a moment.
• 15:27
  You know, sometimes scripts are so big and you're going, oh, my
• 15:29
  God, where do I even begin? I don't often begin at the
• 15:32
  beginning. I'll pick a moment.
• 15:33
  You know, there's a there's so many moments in Guillermo's
• 15:36
  script. And when he talks about, you
• 15:37
  know, he's like a, he baits you with all these, you know, toys
• 15:41
  and sort of goes, we're doing this, we're doing this.
• 15:42
  You go, Oh my God, before I start and I can get a black
• 15:44
  rabbit in the headlights, you know, and I have to take a deep
• 15:48
  breath and start from the beginning.
• 15:50
  So, you know, yeah, that's the beginning.
• 15:52
  And research, you know. Yeah, getting into that research
• 15:55
  and a little bit more of the 1850's, the Crimean War.
• 15:59
  Well, what were you doing to research and prepare going into
• 16:05
  the film? What sort of paintings, museums,
• 16:08
  novels were you looking at? Well, I think because it's such
• 16:11
  a big world, you know, and because we discussed, you know,
• 16:15
  where the when the novel are being set and that I actually
• 16:18
  did a really, really boring exercise with my wonderful
• 16:23
  assistant Alex. We did a timeline, you know,
• 16:25
  like I don't often do those because usually we're such look
• 16:28
  more, you know, specific about things or not specific at all.
• 16:32
  But we did a timeline just for the exercise of it, because
• 16:34
  Guillermo's always throwing out things like reads, you know, the
• 16:36
  kind of a Tranto, which is the first Gothic novel, I think
• 16:40
  Italian and that. So we, we, we put that on a
• 16:42
  timeline and then we put, you know, when galvanization started
• 16:47
  appearing, Mary Shelley's observation, not hers.
• 16:50
  That happened later, but when it first started happening in the
• 16:52
  18th century, you know, when that weekend Mary Shelley wrote
• 16:57
  in the in the House of Byron and and Percy, the volcanic eruption
• 17:01
  which that impacted Europe and and coloured her work, all the
• 17:05
  all those influences, what happened to her, what happened
• 17:07
  in her life. And then working through the
• 17:10
  those wars, the Napoleonic wars that Byron rode into, you know,
• 17:13
  a lot of the poets in that gamer will talk to that.
• 17:16
  And then the Crimean War itself. So we sort of had a kind of we
• 17:21
  didn't use the timeline just as a historical thing, but we also
• 17:23
  put, you know, moments that sort of influenced her world.
• 17:26
  And then then you throw all that away, you know, and you know,
• 17:31
  when I talked to Guillermo, you know, there's, there's so many
• 17:33
  things operating it so many times.
• 17:35
  And we talked about obviously the, the conversations were
• 17:37
  beginning about colour and he talked about this, the tone of
• 17:41
  this, yes, partially being gothic, but also more a romantic
• 17:45
  tragedy in the dark way that you would see a Jacobean tragedy or
• 17:50
  a Caravaggio painting. So Caravaggio is one of the
• 17:52
  first big references that he gave me to discuss.
• 17:56
  And when you look at it, there's those dark Reds and Gemma calls
• 18:00
  them pigeon blood Reds. So he's very specific on the
• 18:02
  Reds of, of any colour. The red is a big thing, but also
• 18:06
  in those paintings there's these beautiful, you know, naked limbs
• 18:10
  and they all have this sort of alabaster quality in that.
• 18:13
  And I think I'm not saying that totally influenced, but when
• 18:15
  Mike and Guillermo talking about the creature was that and wax
• 18:19
  models of the 18th century. So you start to see, you know,
• 18:22
  all of these things influence everything else.
• 18:24
  And I think one of the big paintings of Caravaggio was the
• 18:29
  one about Judith and it was a beheading.
• 18:31
  And there was these we actually use, I use it as a little a
• 18:34
  little quotation. We did the the Pearl earrings
• 18:37
  for me, for Elizabeth came from that painting and that So
• 18:41
  sometimes it would be a little detail.
• 18:42
  I don't always translate things literally.
• 18:44
  In that case I did. But but you know, sometimes it's
• 18:48
  how you reinterpret and take that reference.
• 18:50
  And of course, I we, you know, at the very beginning, you know,
• 18:53
  I looked at the obvious, all the early romantics for Zeli Goya.
• 18:57
  And then there's the painting of one of the first references that
• 19:02
  we actually discussed, Gustav Moreau, who's a wonderful
• 19:06
  painter, and it was called A Desperate Man in You'll
• 19:09
  Recognize it, and a very famous painting.
• 19:11
  It's that whole energy and guru and I love that.
• 19:16
  I. Love that as a reference.
• 19:18
  But then, you know, you talk to Oscar and he brings up William
• 19:21
  Blake and there's that wonderful feeling.
• 19:23
  And Blake was part of that pre Raphaelite school and a bit of a
• 19:26
  rock'n'roll star. So, you know, we talked about
• 19:28
  the physicality and there's the painting of Newton where he's
• 19:31
  naked and you know, this whole thing of searching the muse and,
• 19:35
  and I also, as well as looking at customer David Friedrich and
• 19:39
  and I also looked at Francis Bacon because I was interested
• 19:42
  in artists. And then I looked at Bacon
• 19:44
  studio and Damien her studio and how they wore their clothes.
• 19:47
  And then there's the bohemian element of Victor and I looked
• 19:50
  at Nuriev in his apartment. So you know, it's not always
• 19:54
  related to a period or a classical painting, but I mix
• 19:58
  all of these things together. And as we distill elements, we
• 20:01
  sort of it's this thing of how you look at reference and we all
• 20:05
  collect it and, and in this world we're always using it and
• 20:08
  mood boards and, you know, discussions for color and all
• 20:11
  these things. But I've really.
• 20:13
  That thing where we all look at a, a painting and that and we,
• 20:17
  it's interesting to know we, we think we're all looking at the
• 20:19
  same thing, but actually somebody might pick out a tiny
• 20:21
  detail or see the whole or it's always an interesting
• 20:24
  conversation. Why have you chosen that
• 20:26
  painting? Why have you chosen reference?
• 20:28
  What are we? Are we looking at the same
• 20:29
  thing? So you know that that's part of
• 20:32
  as I'm shaping things with Guillermo, that is part of a
• 20:34
  discussion too. You know, what is it we're
• 20:36
  liking about this and that on and you know, then something it
• 20:40
  might feed its way back into the textile department.
• 20:42
  I'll throw another gruesome monster painting from Goya or
• 20:45
  something. Then they'll be using that as a
• 20:46
  color palette, you know, so. Yeah, I'm just going to tell
• 20:49
  you, Elizabeth too, as, as someone who's been hanging out
• 20:52
  of Kate a lot, she's so full of reference and paintings and not
• 20:57
  I just like at any moment she could name like any painting or
• 21:01
  film. I'm just like, Oh yeah, I've
• 21:02
  definitely heard of that one, you know, So you're, it just
• 21:05
  shows you're really researched. Yeah, and I only did history in
• 21:09
  school, which I loved and I did art history in history history
• 21:13
  because I I learnt that by who slept with who because that, you
• 21:15
  know, that's always been the way of the world.
• 21:17
  But art history, you know, really opened my mind up about
• 21:21
  how people through each of their, you know, the decades of
• 21:27
  history or the OR the, you know, the centuries, how they look at
• 21:32
  people, how they look at form, how they look at color,
• 21:34
  perspective, all those things, symbols within paintings.
• 21:37
  And I think art history has just been the foundation of all kinds
• 21:41
  of research, cultural, historical, everything.
• 21:44
  And, and from that, I, I became a geek and collected art books
• 21:47
  forever. So, you know, that just became a
• 21:49
  personal interest. But I think it's one of the
• 21:50
  foundations. I get so deeply upset when I
• 21:53
  hear, you know, governments cancelling our history in
• 21:56
  schools because it's not important.
• 21:58
  I go, it's the root of everything, everything.
• 22:01
  You know, when you see its influence, everything's there.
• 22:03
  So I get that's a little bear my bonnet.
• 22:05
  So I'm collecting books for the world.
• 22:08
  Yeah, you. Know yeah, yeah, I mean, and,
• 22:12
  and it's not to say it's all related to, you know, stuff in
• 22:15
  the past at all. It's, you know, and I used to
• 22:18
  collect a lot of Martin Powers photographs and, you know, sadly
• 22:21
  he left us not so long ago. But, you know, I just, I just
• 22:25
  think it's the way people use their eyes from a different
• 22:28
  time, a different period from a different, you know, place.
• 22:32
  You know, everyone's got a unique perspective and I or that
• 22:35
  always fascinates me. And that's what makes filmmaking
• 22:38
  so amazing. You know, could have one project
• 22:41
  and every director will completely do it differently.
• 22:43
  You know there's endless answers.
• 22:45
  Well, this very thorough research very clearly paid off
• 22:48
  in Frankenstein. So I'm like very excited to dive
• 22:50
  into now the actual costumes of this film.
• 22:53
  So I think we're going to start actually going back to Victor
• 22:56
  Frankenstein's childhood because we get into a lot of fun right
• 23:00
  away. We're going to save the Arctic
• 23:01
  things for the end a little bit. We're going to go out of order
• 23:04
  here, so. I'm just going out of order.
• 23:08
  That's how you do it anyways. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:11
  No. Methodical.
• 23:13
  So let's go back to the childhood.
• 23:15
  Everyone has been talking about the use of red in this film, and
• 23:19
  it's so evident in Victor's Frankenstein because it all
• 23:21
  seems to start with his mother, Claire Frankenstein.
• 23:24
  It is his childhood. That is true Red is she's
• 23:28
  wearing first of all, that first veiled to look with it blowing
• 23:31
  in the wind just took all of our breath away in the trailer.
• 23:34
  And then you see, though, in everything from the steak she's
• 23:37
  eating to his gloves to his very sexy little blankets that he's
• 23:42
  wearing at night sometimes when he's older, like it just carries
• 23:45
  on through his life. And sometimes it's, it's very
• 23:48
  sad and dramatic. And sometimes it's, you know,
• 23:50
  like, like you said yesterday, a little odd, a little freaky too,
• 23:53
  so. Deliciously, slightly Pedro
• 23:56
  Almaldevar and slightly Morotic, Yeah.
• 24:00
  Exactly. You know, Guillermo talks about
• 24:02
  the the colour red being associated with his childhood
• 24:05
  and Elizabeth links to the mother.
• 24:07
  So the red comes through and and you, you're right, it's the red
• 24:10
  of the gloves. The effigy of the mother in the
• 24:12
  coffin is, you know, resonated and Elizabeth's bonnet.
• 24:16
  But it's also objects, you know, like Tamara's, you know, when he
• 24:20
  has his apartment, he's brought his childhood bed.
• 24:22
  You know, the bed is my Ivan that comes with him.
• 24:25
  The Red Angel comes with him, you know, the glass of milk, you
• 24:29
  know? And you know, that image goes
• 24:32
  right through because Guillermo talks about structures visually
• 24:36
  and through the script as sort of circular narrative and one
• 24:38
  that mirrors itself all the time between characters.
• 24:41
  So the image of clear on the steps at the beginning, he
• 24:45
  wanted from me a visceral trail of blood, you know?
• 24:47
  And you look at Devil's Backbone.
• 24:48
  I think we talked about that this week, Spencer with, you
• 24:51
  know, that beautiful ghost in the stream of blood always
• 24:53
  floating above him and the veil kind of became that.
• 24:56
  And also, you know, I've this whole idea of an imagery of
• 25:02
  memories through the script. You know, the creature talks
• 25:05
  about everybody's talking about memories with in the first part
• 25:07
  of the film, we're looking through Victor's eyes at his
• 25:10
  childhood and of course he's the center of it all.
• 25:13
  And I think for I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but for me,
• 25:17
  and I assume a lot of people are memories of our childhood are
• 25:21
  also as much about sounds and, you know, member being carried
• 25:24
  to bed or listening to your parents through doors and things
• 25:27
  like that. So the veiling that we started
• 25:29
  using through that and and through the background, you
• 25:32
  know, was part of that idea of creating memory and putting them
• 25:35
  in the past and that Victor and and the creature in there are
• 25:39
  the more in focus things. So Elizabeth, too, answers to
• 25:43
  that language. And then we end the circular
• 25:45
  narrative with, you know, the red again are blooming through
• 25:50
  through Elizabeth as she shot through the bridal gown.
• 25:53
  So, you know, game always likes to complete that imagery.
• 25:55
  Yeah. And we're going to come back and
• 25:58
  talk about that dress a little later because it's it's, it's a
• 26:01
  beautiful one. So Victor now grows up and I
• 26:05
  what I think is interesting is he kind of carries on that
• 26:08
  Polish, that decorum that his father had.
• 26:10
  He might not want to admit it, but he definitely is his
• 26:13
  father's son in a way. So can you talk about Victor's
• 26:16
  costume story as this now prolific surgeon before he, you
• 26:20
  know, travels into this a story of madness?
• 26:23
  And also, what was it like working with Oscar Isaac, who
• 26:26
  he's a, he's a favorite of ours on the.
• 26:28
  Phone. Oh my God, he's, he's totally a,
• 26:30
  you know, I can't say favorite. So he is the most wonderful.
• 26:33
  He, he, he's all of them were wonderful.
• 26:36
  I have, you know, I say that hand on heart, all of them were
• 26:38
  wonderful. And, and The thing is, when
• 26:40
  you're working with actors, everyone has a, a unique process
• 26:43
  and, and approach and you have to sort of invite them into the
• 26:47
  world and then, you know, follow them for a bit as well and see
• 26:50
  how they work because they all work and approach their work in
• 26:53
  different ways. So part of my job is to be
• 26:56
  sensitive to that. And actually I think on this
• 26:59
  one, I kind of learnt to watch and listen a bit more, you know,
• 27:02
  So I'm a bit of a bullet, a gate.
• 27:03
  But you know, it helped that we had all the world around us and
• 27:09
  fittings because we didn't get a huge amount of time with the
• 27:12
  actors because we boringly been through all those strikes, which
• 27:14
  seems like a regular thing now and then, you know, everyone
• 27:17
  arrived at once. But Oscars, he's just so
• 27:25
  collaborative. He's so he dives deep into the
• 27:30
  world. He tries everything.
• 27:32
  He also makes everything work. So it's not hard like all of
• 27:34
  them. But you know, he brought the
• 27:36
  black thing. And when all those early
• 27:38
  conversations, it was so wonderful because, you know, I
• 27:41
  talked about this once too. You know that again, what was
• 27:43
  different on this project? There was a lot of openness.
• 27:47
  So even when we did the early fitting, sometimes that can be a
• 27:49
  very quiet me sitting in the corner as the tailor takes the
• 27:52
  measuring tape and everyone's very quiet and respectful.
• 27:54
  Well, we had Kia Mona's computer.
• 27:56
  Dan Lausten popped in, Tamara's husband took came in to take
• 28:00
  photographs. Someone else came and talked.
• 28:02
  Oscar's children came in. You know, like, it was like, it
• 28:05
  was like a big party and these things.
• 28:08
  But you know, you know, Oscar, we talked a lot about the arc of
• 28:12
  things and then sort of, you know, the William Blake thing
• 28:15
  came up and we started creating this wardrobe with Guillermo and
• 28:18
  Oscar and, and, and talking about the silhouette.
• 28:21
  You know, he, he saw how we were approaching the childhood
• 28:25
  through colour and that and, and it became a mix.
• 28:27
  You know, he's Lord Byron. He's he's, he's a classic world
• 28:31
  and that Gentry that have lost their money.
• 28:33
  There's that sort of aristocratic bohemian.
• 28:35
  And, you know, when I found those images, we, we did find
• 28:38
  exact images of Byron and I sort of quoted that in Harlander
• 28:42
  soiree with the red velvet coat. You know, there's sort of an
• 28:45
  irreverence, you know, used to beautiful things and Oh dear,
• 28:48
  that broke or it's got old. It doesn't matter.
• 28:50
  You know, there's a kind of there's a kind of sensibility
• 28:53
  that comes into that world and and it's still very much around
• 28:58
  us and there's a kind of lovely decadence to it all.
• 29:00
  And, you know, combine that with the kind of Rockstar brief that
• 29:04
  Guillemo gave both of us, you know, that that manifests itself
• 29:07
  a lot in the physicality. You know, when Oscar walks on to
• 29:11
  that medical lecture theatre, it's his stage, you know, and I
• 29:14
  think he talked about an interview of referencing Prince,
• 29:17
  you know, the sort of strut. And, you know, Guillemo and I
• 29:19
  talked about David Bowie, you know, the thin white Duke with
• 29:21
  that Symphony of the white shirt and the black waist coat and
• 29:25
  trousers. So and actually, you know, we,
• 29:28
  we did push the silhouette. You know, he's got such a great
• 29:32
  physicality. You can feel it coming through
• 29:34
  the clothes. And I but you know, sometimes I
• 29:38
  saw some photos and, you know, was beginning to get photos and
• 29:41
  that sort of period that can actually use as a reference and
• 29:43
  just the cut of the the trouser at the bottom.
• 29:46
  And that could have we sort of exaggerated some of those
• 29:49
  elements and some of them are sort of there in reference that
• 29:51
  we saw. You know, it was quite a
• 29:53
  wonderful period for for men. You know, there there was lots
• 29:58
  of wonderful tailoring and shaping as opposed to sort of
• 30:01
  the later boxier shapes that you sort of get.
• 30:03
  It was at the height, tailoring was at the height.
• 30:06
  No pressure to our poor tailor. And I had the wonderful Daniel
• 30:10
  Bin, wonderful, wonderful Taylor and Cutter do Victor's clothes,
• 30:16
  and I had the wonderful Philip do Harlander and Williams
• 30:21
  clothes. So I the menswear was such a
• 30:22
  huge part of the world. We talk about mere stuff, but
• 30:25
  the menswear was massive. And Daniel, and particularly as
• 30:30
  the same time as he was working on Victor, he was also working
• 30:33
  on The Creature. So we're working on those two
• 30:35
  different languages together. And you know, Oscar's so
• 30:38
  physical, you know the how, you know, that was one of the things
• 30:41
  I also learnt watching him that not to the temptation was to run
• 30:45
  in after every take and fix him up.
• 30:46
  And then I kind of called it and just went, let's just leave him
• 30:50
  alone because that's part of Victor and his storytelling.
• 30:54
  And we built this wardrobe and, you know, we had some a whole
• 30:57
  bunch of items in it. And what was great is that we,
• 31:00
  you know, there were moments that were plotted out and there
• 31:01
  are other moments that I'm not sure where that works, but leave
• 31:04
  it with me and I'll come back. You know what I've been thinking
• 31:06
  about that this is perfect. What if I did this with it?
• 31:09
  So that's a gift when you have all this stuff because it can
• 31:12
  get lost. You know, things change, steam
• 31:14
  structure changes, things get cut all the time.
• 31:16
  You know, when the train leaves the station, you're sort of, you
• 31:18
  know, it's to a degree making it up as you go along, even though
• 31:22
  you've got the all the rules and the body of the work.
• 31:26
  I mean, I don't say making it up because Gimme would never fit.
• 31:28
  But you know, we're not making up.
• 31:29
  You're you're adapting to the daily needs of of production and
• 31:33
  how that changes. There's always stuff that
• 31:34
  changes, but Oscar really embraced it.
• 31:37
  And, you know, we created that dressing gown came from that
• 31:39
  William Blake sort of world. And you know, that whole idea of
• 31:44
  it, you know, he, when we see him at the beginning as a
• 31:47
  student, he's got no money left. He's still carting the the
• 31:51
  artifacts of his childhood around, but he's got no money
• 31:54
  but probably gets away with going to dinner parties.
• 31:56
  And that because he is who he is, because he's Lord, you know,
• 32:00
  Baron Victor Frankenstein, you know, that happens.
• 32:03
  The snobbery of Oh my God, here's someone with you know
• 32:05
  what? We, you know, he has all this
• 32:06
  heritage and that. And then he gets money from
• 32:09
  Harlander and becomes a little, you know, you know, we had
• 32:13
  scenes written early on where he went to the tailors and you saw
• 32:15
  all this sort of stuff happening.
• 32:17
  And but you can see it, you know, suddenly his focus shifts
• 32:20
  to Elizabeth and the seduction of her and, and wearing the
• 32:23
  clothes. So he's enjoying the money.
• 32:24
  He's not going to give up on good things.
• 32:26
  I'm sure, you know, the good bottles of wine come out and,
• 32:29
  you know, spending the patrons money.
• 32:32
  Well, you know, and there's that wonderful thing where you know,
• 32:35
  he's got his new wardrobe and you start to see the shift.
• 32:37
  It's still still Victor. You know, we still wanted to
• 32:40
  keep that sensibility of everything.
• 32:42
  But you know, the, the fabrics and the, you know, the, the
• 32:46
  quality of them and the cut and we've made all these, you know,
• 32:48
  this waistcoat with all this sort of veined lymphatic lung
• 32:53
  system on it and all of those things.
• 32:54
  So we've kept all of the, the thematic element of it.
• 32:58
  But when you see him in the silversmiths ordering up his
• 33:01
  poor brother William, tasked with ordering up all the, you
• 33:04
  know, the, the, the stuff for the creation, there's that big
• 33:06
  lightning rod that looks like a gynecological instrument.
• 33:10
  And, and, and this is what I love about the way Gemma writes.
• 33:13
  He sort of they've made it in, you know, it's supposed to be
• 33:16
  made in silver and the guy's made it with an alloy and he's
• 33:18
  going Oh, it's totally not what I good enough.
• 33:22
  It's a tiny bit start again and and part of what gemo script.
• 33:26
  So you know, part of it. You can hear yourself.
• 33:30
  You know, Victor's journey in itself.
• 33:32
  That pursuit of something is all of us in the arts, you know, so
• 33:36
  I think that's another thing. But Oscar was a joy and he
• 33:40
  embraced things and he made things work.
• 33:41
  And he, he knows how to move in a garment.
• 33:44
  And, you know, he, he's got such an amazing sense of physicality.
• 33:49
  And, you know, even though I can't take credit for the bath
• 33:51
  scene, you know, his idea that, you know, and with Guillermo
• 33:54
  that, you know, the muse strikes and he, you know, that's his
• 33:57
  William Blake moment, rising naked from the bath.
• 33:59
  And you know, he's, he's got that idea.
• 34:02
  And I think he always makes that work with his clothes throughout
• 34:05
  the whole throughout the whole film.
• 34:06
  So one of the many stunning images in this film is that of
• 34:11
  the dark Angel that haunts Victor through his life.
• 34:15
  And what a lot of people don't know is that it's a practical
• 34:18
  costume. What went into the making of
• 34:21
  that? A lot we the first you know what
• 34:28
  what was interesting about that whole process is that he had one
• 34:31
  of his lovely artists in Mexico, you know, design and make the
• 34:35
  the little statue and then Tamara and who amazing
• 34:39
  department scaled that up. So the idea, you know, the sort
• 34:42
  of presence of, you know, the promise of life and death like
• 34:47
  the, you know, Saint Michael at the gate, you know, is always
• 34:49
  part of the sort of image that Gamer had.
• 34:52
  And when you look at the wooden statue, you'll see certain
• 34:54
  splits in the wood that are actually echoed in the creatures
• 34:57
  makeup over here. So, you know, that's the level
• 35:00
  of Gamer in this whole film saying nothing's by chance
• 35:05
  anyway. Then there was all these
• 35:07
  nightmare sequences and he said, Kate, I need you to, you know,
• 35:10
  build the real thing that we can sort of add elements to.
• 35:14
  So we had a performer, one of one of another one of
• 35:18
  Guillermo's long standing friends come in, Robert, Robert
• 35:22
  Berto. And, and then the challenge was,
• 35:25
  so how do you kind of transcribe the wooden statue to this thing
• 35:28
  that becomes a living, you know, figure of flesh, you know, and,
• 35:34
  and death. And, you know, I always try and
• 35:39
  your aim is to try and replicate the scales and proportion of the
• 35:43
  Angel. And then you're dealing with a
• 35:44
  real human that might not, you know, might differ from that.
• 35:48
  And you know, you're, we're one of the so we started from
• 35:52
  translating the idea of the Angel.
• 35:54
  You know, what happens when this becomes a visceral thing of
• 35:56
  flesh and and blood. And, you know, we added
• 35:59
  anatomical elements in the design of it.
• 36:01
  So we, you know, did a few designs and we played around
• 36:04
  with the horse's head at one point, which it kind of was the
• 36:06
  belly nod. But you know, it didn't quite,
• 36:09
  you know, it wasn't an idea that kind of got legs.
• 36:12
  And then we ended back with this sort of idea of, you know,
• 36:16
  Guillermo wanted the sort of the face of the Angel to reveal
• 36:20
  itself as death. So we had to sort of work out
• 36:23
  along with all the other elements that we were doing.
• 36:25
  And so the, the wings of muscle and, you know, it's looking at
• 36:28
  muscle and, and, and, you know, all the visceral sort of
• 36:31
  qualities. How do we get that into the the
• 36:33
  statue? But the biggest challenge, and
• 36:36
  we worked with Walter Classen's studio and, and Canada, because
• 36:39
  we ended up having to scan Roberto's headers.
• 36:41
  We had to how do we reveal a skull, you know, remove a whole
• 36:45
  head and face and reveal the skull underneath.
• 36:48
  And, and then when you're dealing with someone's head and
• 36:50
  you're adding and adding, that's a huge thing.
• 36:53
  So actually we made the, the initial mask of the angelic face
• 36:59
  was made by one of my props girls, Anna.
• 37:03
  She works in leather. So a lot of that work was made
• 37:05
  in leather and then some of it was cast in 3D.
• 37:07
  So we use all the way through this film, you know, it was
• 37:10
  either the hand or using technology to work with what
• 37:14
  we've done by hand. So there was sort of cross
• 37:16
  things. So that, and then we sort of did
• 37:18
  the sort of scarlet actually, it was one of those tricks of
• 37:20
  illusion, you know, when you, you know, add it to the face, it
• 37:25
  became the sort of giant thing and it lost kind of the magic of
• 37:28
  the artwork and that. So we actually cheated
• 37:30
  perspective, you know, and, and cheated.
• 37:33
  It was like a, a medieval illusion trick that we did in 3D
• 37:37
  really. So we did all of that.
• 37:39
  And then I think we even had the wings operating.
• 37:42
  It was one of those things that took like 20 different people to
• 37:45
  make this thing in every department.
• 37:47
  So we had the Milliner, we had Walter Klassen's studio, we had
• 37:49
  our leather workers, we had our dyers, you know, involved
• 37:52
  everybody across department, all of these things do.
• 37:56
  And then and I think I've got a wonderful group shot somewhere
• 38:00
  over all of them, everyone involved sitting there and my
• 38:03
  assistant Alex put in so much work into this thing.
• 38:06
  You know, like several of these things I had to give, you know,
• 38:09
  different, you know, assistance that that's your whole project.
• 38:14
  So she she did a marvellous job with that.
• 38:16
  And and then, you know, we we got on set, there were flames
• 38:21
  going and the wings moving and, you know, there was just so much
• 38:24
  going on. And then, you know, we gamer
• 38:26
  added the extra layers of gold. You know, at first it was going
• 38:30
  to be, you know, almost like in the blackness and you didn't see
• 38:34
  anything. So all of these things, like all
• 38:36
  of it, there's a sort of linear pathway, but they evolve as we
• 38:39
  go. And it was quite something
• 38:41
  having all the flames going and then quite horrifying because we
• 38:43
  had all the silk blowing around on set.
• 38:46
  He didn't want to put those things together ideally.
• 38:51
  But you know, we'd started this romantic gesture and it just
• 38:53
  sort of became that. But it was a, it was a, it was
• 38:56
  another project that involved weeks of work.
• 38:58
  But I, I started at the beginning, you know, what saved
• 39:01
  us was I was unusually organised some of these things and, and we
• 39:06
  could start some of those projects only because we started
• 39:09
  them earlier, started going, what could it be?
• 39:11
  How we're going to approach this?
• 39:12
  Did we get it there? Because, you know, the momentum
• 39:15
  of this project, there were so many things going on and, you
• 39:18
  know, schedule changes and that, that if we hadn't started those
• 39:20
  things, if we haven't started Elizabeth's X-ray dress, if they
• 39:23
  haven't started the show, they wouldn't have been there.
• 39:26
  You know, it's, you're like this constantly on a, on a, you know,
• 39:29
  project trying to bounce that. And then then you're doing this,
• 39:33
  you know, but it's a testament to the team that I had.
• 39:38
  I know we're talking about the the art and the design, which is
• 39:41
  always a pleasure. And it's great because you know,
• 39:42
  nothing's built yet and can get away with everything.
• 39:44
  And then the reality is you have a team help you realise it and
• 39:48
  they're juggling all these balls in the air as well.
• 39:50
  And you know, Renee, my assistant and that were, you
• 39:53
  know, she we were working across with David working on cross
• 39:57
  background. And then we're working across
• 39:58
  all these, you know, main principal characters.
• 40:01
  Then we were working on specialist things like the Angel
• 40:04
  and that. So it takes, it takes a lot to
• 40:06
  do all of that. Yeah.
• 40:08
  And another one of the big collaborations on this film,
• 40:11
  your collaboration with Tiffany on this.
• 40:14
  Film. It's incredible, and I got to
• 40:17
  see some of the pieces in person at this exhibition talk about
• 40:21
  this partnership, because it really is.
• 40:23
  I mean, it's a costume designer's dream, really.
• 40:25
  It's like a blind date. And it kind of came from like,
• 40:29
  you know, you're doing something that Gemma wants lush and
• 40:33
  opulent. And then we're going, even our
• 40:35
  budget doesn't cover all of that, you know, like, yeah,
• 40:38
  believe it or not, you know, like those things have to go
• 40:41
  further. And, you know, I remember
• 40:44
  talking to Steve Newman going, oh, we need jewelry because, you
• 40:47
  know, it's like, how do you do it without it looking like
• 40:50
  you've gone and got the twin set from somewhere.
• 40:52
  You know, was thinking of creative other ways to do it.
• 40:56
  But it was sort of, you know, it's so unique, the language
• 40:59
  that we were working on. And Steve said, well, I've got
• 41:02
  this friend who's amazing, who works in, you know, luxury brand
• 41:05
  partnerships. And he introduced us to
• 41:06
  Catherine Van Deveen. And you know, she she did, they
• 41:10
  did The Great Gatsby and all that.
• 41:13
  So, yeah. And then then she said, well,
• 41:15
  have a look at Tiffany's. And I think I immediately went
• 41:18
  on, went on there and went, this is an our world.
• 41:21
  And then Christopher immediately went on at his side and went,
• 41:23
  well, this is an our world because he was thinking of the
• 41:25
  monster with the bolts in his neck.
• 41:26
  And I was just looking at the obvious.
• 41:28
  I had no idea about the archive. So Catherine set up this blind
• 41:32
  date and I got to meet Christopher and he listened, you
• 41:36
  know, first of all, sort of with discussions of tiaras and I
• 41:39
  went, no, no, Guillermo and I don't want that world.
• 41:41
  You know, we're we're into and we talked about our organic or
• 41:45
  you know, the organic world, the opulence of it and started we
• 41:47
  showed him images and you know, Christopher invited me to the
• 41:50
  archives and opened the doors to Louis Comfort Tiffany, who I had
• 41:55
  no knowledge of, which is what I love about research and every
• 41:59
  project being unique. And it was like, I'm going to
• 42:02
  romanticize this. It was a long drive through many
• 42:04
  woods and there was big dark doors open and everywhere.
• 42:07
  Not quite like that, but it was sort of felt like that to be in
• 42:10
  this extraordinary world. And and so the the father of
• 42:18
  Louis covered Tiffany all their jewelry, which I was assuming
• 42:21
  was the stuff they were offering.
• 42:22
  It was more traditional Garland style.
• 42:25
  It was sort of nature very refined and tamed to the point
• 42:28
  of being abstract. You know, it was all your girls
• 42:30
  of age kind of expected jewelry. And I think the wade is more
• 42:34
  that world, right. So it's more more of that world.
• 42:37
  And then Louis Comfort as the next generation kind of pissed
• 42:42
  off and set off his own studio outside the world of his
• 42:45
  father's world of Tiffany. And I hope I'm not describing
• 42:48
  this in the wrong way, but he set up a studio called Arcadia,
• 42:50
  which happens to be the name of my wee farm back home.
• 42:54
  So there was the first thing. Yeah.
• 42:56
  Andy, he created the this, you know, studio.
• 43:00
  And he had these young women, Julia Munson, Meter Overbeck and
• 43:05
  I think just a few others. And in this room he had, it was
• 43:09
  a homage to nature and natural forms.
• 43:11
  He wanted to create art jewelry, and he wanted to sort of break
• 43:16
  those sort of barriers of everything being within this
• 43:18
  formal structure. And so they developed all this
• 43:22
  sort of work and designed and they had all these natural
• 43:25
  things around them. And you know, the stained glass,
• 43:27
  you know, the lamps and the windows, all of that happening.
• 43:29
  I was listening to the story and looking at all these things.
• 43:31
  And I went, well, that's how Guillermo and I work.
• 43:34
  That's how Guillermo works with all of us, you know, and in my
• 43:36
  workroom, I have everything around that can stimulate
• 43:40
  conversation. We had, you know, the Malachi on
• 43:42
  our table back in our offices, you know, and so we're looking
• 43:45
  at all this. And when, you know, Christopher
• 43:47
  showed me the scarabs and, and the the colored glass, you know,
• 43:51
  the tourmaline ring. And then I went, Oh my God, this
• 43:53
  is, it's not our period, but it is our story.
• 43:56
  And it is the, the tonal world of our mood, you know, the ring,
• 44:02
  nature's, you know, breaking out of its confines, you know, and
• 44:05
  there's a universe within the colour of the glass and the way
• 44:08
  they talked about the gems, even it was about the energy and
• 44:12
  there's universes within them and how they paint with light.
• 44:15
  And that's how we were approached our fabrics with me
• 44:19
  or we were doing the same. We were using layers and color
• 44:22
  upon color as opposed to black. You know, we were painting Blues
• 44:26
  and greens and purples and the same when you look at Meter
• 44:30
  Overbeck's work and, you know, I saw these beautiful, beautiful
• 44:34
  necklaces, I could have walked out with a whole lot of stuff,
• 44:37
  color upon color. And that was also answering some
• 44:40
  of Elizabeth's world. When we were looking, I was
• 44:42
  referencing Bieber, you know, looking because Guillermo, we
• 44:44
  talked about the 60s having that sort of same flavor as the
• 44:47
  century before, you know, Victorian's use of color.
• 44:50
  But there's a dreamlike quality. And when I looked at the stained
• 44:53
  glass windows, they had this room full of lamps.
• 44:55
  And then some of those lamps had a Blake, William Blake quality.
• 44:59
  And then again, the way they used color was saturated.
• 45:03
  It was rich, but it had a melancholy in it.
• 45:06
  There's a sadness in some of those stained glass windows.
• 45:08
  I don't, I might, I'm determined to get to the Morse Museum.
• 45:10
  But they had some of these stained glass windows around.
• 45:13
  And there's it captures all the feeling.
• 45:15
  And I think that probably describes this process more than
• 45:18
  anything. We've talked about research and
• 45:19
  we've talked about paintings and all of these technical things
• 45:22
  that I do. But really it was the feeling of
• 45:25
  everything that Gamma had written on what he was wanting.
• 45:28
  And I don't think I've ever really defined it like that
• 45:30
  before, but it was totally like that was a very instinctive
• 45:34
  thing. And then, you know, on top of
• 45:35
  that, the craftsmanship of what those objects were within the
• 45:39
  archives and what Tiffany stands for today.
• 45:42
  And, you know, the admiration of, you know, the the process
• 45:45
  and, and the craft is where Guillermo stands celebrating
• 45:50
  that. So it was, it was sort of like
• 45:54
  even the word partnership feels a bit weird and commercial
• 45:58
  because I don't think it would have worked in that sense at
• 46:01
  all. And this was, this was just an
• 46:03
  alchemy. It was an alchemy.
• 46:05
  And we went hand in hand. One idea opened another, the
• 46:09
  doors kept opening. You know, it was a perfect
• 46:12
  match. Our our garments weren't
• 46:14
  complete without that jewelry, just like the city does not
• 46:18
  complete without our figures in it.
• 46:20
  My character's not complete until here in makeup.
• 46:22
  So everything finished was the finished accent and and
• 46:26
  everything elevated itself each other.
• 46:28
  So it was wonderful. And Christopher was just an
• 46:32
  absolute delight. His knowledge, he really
• 46:34
  understood what we're doing. He's the most wonderful
• 46:36
  watercolor artist himself. He teaches watercolor classes at
• 46:39
  NYU. So on every level we share.
• 46:43
  It was like a brain fuck. You know.
• 46:46
  Like, but I, I mean it. So you meet people in your life.
• 46:50
  Game, of course, is the most major one in my life, not, you
• 46:53
  know, in terms of sharing ideas and, and my respect for all his
• 46:58
  world and what he creates. But Christopher too, you know,
• 47:01
  you meet people like this. So I get so emotional, but it
• 47:04
  doesn't happen very often. It was a very kinset thing and I
• 47:08
  got to meet Christopher yesterday and I could just, I
• 47:10
  was like, Oh yeah, I see why Kate vibed with this, but this
• 47:13
  person too is a true artist. He's not a man in a suit.
• 47:16
  And I know we're being really mean to men in suits at the
• 47:19
  moment. And he's an artist as well and
• 47:21
  he understands that. And then when you you talk to
• 47:23
  the gemologist, they're describing what energy does this
• 47:26
  jewel give you? What do you feel?
• 47:28
  And I'm going, I had this image though, when he said we have a
• 47:30
  gemologist looking when we were building the cross, they had a
• 47:33
  gemologist looking for all the precious stones.
• 47:35
  And she's this wonderful woman, Vicki, wonderful woman.
• 47:40
  I had this image of her sort of running up and down mountains in
• 47:43
  a, is it East St. Laurent safari seat or, you
• 47:45
  know, something like that. You know, it wasn't like that.
• 47:48
  It wasn't India, but that's the version I'm going with anyway.
• 47:52
  But they're, they're all extraordinary.
• 47:53
  They all understood the finesse and it was a big process.
• 47:57
  You know, building that cross, for example, was a, a massive
• 48:00
  progress process. But I learnt what was similar
• 48:02
  about the way we work and how and the differences and it's an
• 48:05
  extraordinary and wonderful part of how what we get to work on a
• 48:09
  project like this. It's been extraordinary.
• 48:11
  Well, let's talk about Elizabeth, who is obviously the
• 48:15
  character that we're all talking about in terms of her costumes.
• 48:18
  We're going to do with everyone else there.
• 48:21
  We're going to do like Elizabeth speed round and go through like
• 48:23
  a couple of these gowns and try to, I know we could talk about
• 48:27
  each of them for days and days, but OK, the first one, let's
• 48:31
  talk about the malachite green one that everyone seems so to
• 48:34
  love. I mean that.
• 48:35
  First thing, that was my first dress for her of, well, the
• 48:39
  bride. But actually the malachite was
• 48:40
  the first one because it was the first thing on my mood board
• 48:43
  when I was looking at forms, I was looking at blood cells, you
• 48:46
  know, cells in nature. And then Guillermo started
• 48:49
  talking about beetles. So all that malachite kind of
• 48:52
  fitted all that language. I actually did a red one as
• 48:54
  well. We actually made a red one, but
• 48:56
  it had it didn't. It was amazing, but it didn't
• 48:59
  quite have the tone and mood and the green became Elizabeth's
• 49:02
  colour. So I translate, you know, we
• 49:04
  kept that language going and it was, we've got this great canvas
• 49:08
  and it was like this sort of, it really was sort of about, you
• 49:11
  know, making nature so vivid in our world and bringing those
• 49:15
  elements. And, you know, obviously, you
• 49:19
  know, all that beetle imagery and nature and all that became
• 49:21
  anatomy in any form, whether it's a beetle or a human.
• 49:24
  And that made its way. But the Malachite for me,
• 49:27
  really, it felt like Elizabeth, it was had a simplicity, but the
• 49:31
  pattern did all the work and it was an extraordinary thing.
• 49:34
  And it sort of even fitted that kind of 60s sort of Bieber world
• 49:37
  really. So for me personally, the
• 49:39
  Bieber, the Malachite dress was my favorite because it it did
• 49:43
  everything it was meant to. You know, there's lots of.
• 49:46
  The thing about Elizabeth is she's a series of fleeting
• 49:48
  images through Victor's eyes and through the creature.
• 49:51
  And she's always changing. She's lover, she's mother, She's
• 49:54
  a muse. She's an Angel.
• 49:55
  She's a devil. She keeps changing.
• 49:58
  So yeah. Oh, that's a regret we fell in
• 50:00
  love with. And then.
• 50:01
  Yeah. And Mia, Mia talks about her
• 50:03
  like that. You know, she's you can almost
• 50:05
  catch her. And then she disappears.
• 50:06
  And then another version of her appears.
• 50:09
  Mia will talk to that a lot. And her work?
• 50:11
  Yeah, another one that I think a lot of people are very obsessed
• 50:15
  with is the blue X-ray. Oh.
• 50:17
  Yeah, yeah. So I go, that wasn't my yes, but
• 50:21
  I did have X-rays on my board at the beginning and I tried
• 50:26
  multiple ways of using that because it's also about colour
• 50:29
  and things. But when you look at the imagery
• 50:31
  of rebirth and that was there in the image of scarabs and things
• 50:35
  and you know, this idea of translucency and the ephemeral
• 50:40
  quality. And again, I said, I want an
• 50:41
  ephemeral quality with her. And you know, this is
• 50:45
  Guillermo's fairy tale. There are moments definitely
• 50:47
  where Elizabeth is part of that fairy tale.
• 50:49
  And you know that that dynasty, you see, that's where I want
• 50:53
  that dress. And you know, the the X-rays,
• 50:56
  I've been playing with a lot. And one of the patterns in an
• 51:00
  X-ray was the female hip bone, but it sort of became a mouth.
• 51:03
  It looked like an insect. It echoed Victorian damask on
• 51:06
  wallpaper. So it kind of fits home.
• 51:08
  It's, we also had to something that in a way that could
• 51:10
  actually work on a crinoline shape with layers.
• 51:13
  It's quite difficult to do a pattern.
• 51:16
  You know, it's challenging to do a pattern that's working out
• 51:19
  when you've got, you know, say 60 meters of fabric and you're,
• 51:22
  you know, you know, cartridge pleating it into a garment and
• 51:26
  that you've got to work out how the form works through length
• 51:28
  and width, you know, so there was a it was a huge amount of
• 51:31
  work. Alex, Renee and my textile team
• 51:35
  actually started developing the textiles for that before we even
• 51:37
  built the dress. We knew what our silhouettes
• 51:39
  were, but trying to work out, we had single source lighting, we
• 51:43
  had candlelight. So those things actually worked
• 51:45
  against the saturated Blues that Guillermo wanted.
• 51:48
  You know, I first thing I did was try deep Blues underneath,
• 51:51
  you know, those more translucent layers and it killed it.
• 51:54
  And then my team who are alchemists and chemists, you
• 51:57
  know, they were the opposite to sometimes the way you think you
• 51:59
  do. And so we started working with
• 52:00
  blue Grays and layers. I've got endless pictures of
• 52:03
  everyone sitting around these mannequins of layers of colour
• 52:06
  going. That's it.
• 52:07
  And then we take it into the warm lighting setup.
• 52:09
  We had to replicate candlelight and it died, you know, like so
• 52:13
  it, it was, it was a real, it was a real color theory approach
• 52:19
  that dressed to get the layers right.
• 52:20
  And we used, not only did we use tools, but we also used
• 52:24
  something synthetic and organs as well.
• 52:26
  And it created this sort of layer and glow of light.
• 52:30
  And then the feathered headdress, you know, the girls
• 52:33
  achieved these amazing colours through dye that kind of pulled
• 52:37
  it all together. And that was referencing, you
• 52:41
  know, Victor talks about is it an Angel?
• 52:43
  Is it a devil? And there's the sleeping Medusa.
• 52:45
  And that image is always repeated in the imagery of the
• 52:47
  Medusa, the feathers. It comes from a Victorian, you
• 52:50
  know, in that period, they were doing this.
• 52:52
  But we kind of shaped it more to echo the circle imagery and
• 52:57
  frame her, you know? Yeah.
• 52:59
  And she, she's extraordinary. You know, like, Mia's a
• 53:03
  shapeshifter itself. We talk about Elizabeth, but Mia
• 53:05
  truly is, you know, you look at any, any of those shots of
• 53:09
  Frankenstein and it's a, you know, different, a different
• 53:12
  kind of beauty or, or a character that you're seeing.
• 53:15
  Yeah, she's able to play such like joy and, you know, color
• 53:18
  and and positivity and like you said, like very inspiring.
• 53:21
  And then you see her in that that wedding dress, the bridal
• 53:24
  moment, and you just see such sadness and tragedy and
• 53:28
  melancholy and it really tells so much story.
• 53:31
  Can you talk about that costume in particular?
• 53:33
  And obviously, the inspirations of the Bride of Frankenstein
• 53:36
  too. Yeah.
• 53:37
  Well, you, you sort of start going, oh, what's a Victorian
• 53:40
  bridal dress? You know, And there's, you know,
• 53:42
  I think it's actually the period Queen Victoria, I think,
• 53:44
  introduced the white bridal wedding gown.
• 53:46
  But don't quote me on that because the historians will
• 53:48
  throw something at me. But, you know, I'm terrified of
• 53:50
  that. I mean, I love them, but, you
• 53:52
  know, and of course, it's not what Guillermo wants.
• 53:56
  This is Frankenstein. This is his version of it.
• 53:59
  And I I think there's AI have to say there's a few iterations I
• 54:01
  did. He was like, whatever, just
• 54:05
  always healthy. You know, you want to be pushed
• 54:07
  and then, you know, going back to all the references, I mean,
• 54:11
  there's so many different references in this film that
• 54:13
  Guillermo so cleverly uses of all the iterations of
• 54:17
  Frankenstein. And then how can you you're
• 54:20
  looking at a bride of Frankenstein, ignore the bride
• 54:23
  of Frankenstein. So, but what was interesting,
• 54:26
  I've been looking at the Swiss German references, you know, the
• 54:29
  more traditional dress with the the brooches and things like
• 54:33
  that and paintings. And so it sort of became a
• 54:36
  distillation of all those things.
• 54:37
  And I was playing with those elements.
• 54:39
  And at this point in the story, Elizabeth is referencing the
• 54:42
  creatures world. You know, Tamara built almost
• 54:45
  the rib cage and the crypt where he's kept and it's all this sort
• 54:48
  of bone white tiling in that. And so really as we work from
• 54:52
  the inside out like Mike did with the creature, I did the
• 54:55
  same with Elizabeth. And then we took this idea of
• 54:57
  layering that we've been using in all the clothes and costumes
• 55:00
  with materiality did that. So we sort of created this dress
• 55:03
  from the inside out and we, I used, you know, you know, found
• 55:07
  those references of ribbon bodices, which are a little bit
• 55:10
  later, later 1860s and used that as an idea for the rib cage.
• 55:13
  And then that linked into the idea of using, quoting the
• 55:16
  ribbons from Elsa's Bride of Frankenstein, you know, so it
• 55:20
  all linked. And then on the top layer,
• 55:21
  there's an, I call it the X-ray version.
• 55:24
  There's this very fine layer that we used where it has all
• 55:29
  the scenes of address because looking through X-rays, you sort
• 55:32
  of see, you know, different layers as you go through.
• 55:34
  So the idea was to create that so that when she bleeds, the
• 55:38
  sort of the blood coming from the inside out creates anatomy.
• 55:41
  You're looking at a bloodied, you know, skeleton really in
• 55:45
  many ways. And then the heraldic broaches
• 55:48
  that Tiffany made for us were out of sterling silver, you
• 55:52
  know, but they were taken from the Frankenstein household, the
• 55:57
  Griffin and the swan and the chains.
• 56:00
  They also echo the creature, you know, chains to that, you know,
• 56:04
  Mortuary table downstairs. And then, of course, the cross
• 56:07
  that's with her forever, you know, throughout the whole
• 56:10
  movie. And so, and as you know,
• 56:13
  symbolizes her, you know, belief and God is present in nature in
• 56:20
  every way. You know just why she loves the
• 56:22
  creature. And, you know, all of those
• 56:23
  things, whatever form it takes, it has beauty, all those things
• 56:29
  combined. And then we had to make lots of
• 56:31
  versions of them. It's like, and we actually got,
• 56:35
  you know, got a silk these days, you know, there's less and less
• 56:39
  choice. And we had to get the silk for
• 56:41
  her wedding gown milled to be as light as it could, you know, to
• 56:44
  keep the weight as light, because we knew it was about
• 56:47
  movement, You know, the the sleeves of the gown, you know,
• 56:50
  again, that was sort of part of that top X-ray layer.
• 56:53
  You know, so much of what I do with Guillermo is also about
• 56:55
  movement. You know, once you understand
• 56:56
  the scene and what's going to happen, I go, I know this is
• 56:58
  going to be a big movement a moment.
• 57:00
  We did that in Crimson Peak, You know, those girls running around
• 57:03
  with knives and axes. You go, there's movement, you
• 57:05
  know, So a lot of work we, it's hard when you do an illustration
• 57:08
  because you're always looking at a static 2 dimensional thing.
• 57:11
  And most of our works about movement, we judge a fitting
• 57:14
  photograph and I'm going, please can we show someone moving
• 57:17
  because it changes everything, changes everything.
• 57:20
  When you see a garment moving, it's part of the magic of it.
• 57:24
  Getting into that prominent color of white, Del Toro has
• 57:28
  pointed out that white really has to do with the color of
• 57:31
  death. And when Victor is in the
• 57:34
  Arctic, he is surrounded by white.
• 57:37
  Can you talk about your use of white and the challenge in
• 57:41
  creating this frozen landscape for these very chilly sailors?
• 57:47
  Yeah, well, whites also what you see in the mother's funeral, it
• 57:50
  was originally going to be entirely white, but due to
• 57:52
  budget constrictions, you know, it didn't.
• 57:55
  But you see that in the coffin and everything, right?
• 57:57
  So and whites are very. I think that, you know, Gemma's
• 58:00
  got a great love of, you know, the Japanese film making and
• 58:04
  that and white being that symbol of colour.
• 58:06
  Also, you know, when you look at the captain and sailors,
• 58:08
  they're, it was almost, you know, this is Victor, you know,
• 58:12
  speaking his last piece. He's facing judgement at the, at
• 58:15
  the, at Peter's gate. You know, in a way, the
• 58:17
  captain's, you know, Peter at the gate.
• 58:20
  And I often, you know, sort of look at that world of the rhyme
• 58:23
  of the ancient Mariners and everything.
• 58:25
  But basically we took a sailor and rolled him in Kitty litter
• 58:28
  and created snow. I mean, I say that you can do
• 58:32
  this at home. It wasn't quite as easy as I
• 58:36
  made that sound. You know, we had the background
• 58:40
  are a huge part of Guillermo's storytelling and wheel building,
• 58:44
  and they're part of the painting.
• 58:45
  They're part of the palette. They can be individuals in the
• 58:49
  group, or they're sort of more stylized, you know, And in this
• 58:53
  world, he wanted the sailors to be sort of multiples.
• 58:55
  There was a practical answer to that because there was, you
• 58:58
  know, a lot of throwing around, throwing on.
• 59:00
  And then he wanted to be able to grab anyone.
• 59:02
  But also, a uniform's never a uniform When you wear it, you
• 59:05
  know, the person who's wearing the face that's carrying it you.
• 59:08
  There's always individuality in that, but we needed to heighten
• 59:12
  it. It's not.
• 59:14
  So we sort of pushed this idea and that the sailors were very
• 59:17
  much a part of the landscape. And even the the colour blue
• 59:21
  that we used was to differentiate it from the ship a
• 59:23
  little bit. And we did lots and lots of
• 59:26
  samples of how far is too far. And you know, in a way you never
• 59:30
  go far enough. And you know, it's things can
• 59:33
  get so lost once they're up on in the scale of film.
• 59:37
  But we built all the uniforms for the ship's crew.
• 59:40
  I think it was about over 150 in multiples.
• 59:44
  My poor beloved Breakdown and textile team, you know, we had a
• 59:47
  core and we had to get people in because the uniforms were being
• 59:50
  made by, you know, my department over at Hero Costume.
• 59:56
  And then Guillermo brought the whole, that whole section, Ford
• 59:59
  and the Crimean War section, which we were also doing all the
• 1:00:02
  uniforms for. And all of it had to be ice and
• 1:00:04
  snow, you know, and. I, I, I work like that a lot,
• 1:00:08
  but it has a big impact on those sort of crews.
• 1:00:11
  You know, the breakdown always gets garments last anyway.
• 1:00:13
  So all this stuff arrived and then Megan, who was running our
• 1:00:17
  Toronto workshop, they structured really clever on the
• 1:00:20
  structure of everything. And we had a system for that,
• 1:00:23
  you know, and I've got loads of pictures of this crew, you know,
• 1:00:27
  using snow everywhere. It got everywhere, everywhere.
• 1:00:30
  Then Jordan, you know, would do, you know, use these balaclavas
• 1:00:33
  and that to help save, you know, because you all have to be
• 1:00:35
  mindful of every decision you have as an impact on another
• 1:00:38
  department. So Cleon and I talked about, you
• 1:00:40
  know, with Guillermo covering, you know, the heads of these
• 1:00:43
  sort of balaclavas also because of the cold and and, you know,
• 1:00:46
  it really was cold in Toronto at that point.
• 1:00:48
  And then Jordan and his makeup crew iced all the beards and
• 1:00:51
  things. So they followed the same
• 1:00:52
  language, you know, once wherever you are in this world
• 1:00:56
  of gamer, all of us, you know, hear makeup, Tamara production
• 1:00:59
  design den prop set decorate, We all follow each other's language
• 1:01:03
  and that's, you know, there's no point me doing all of that.
• 1:01:06
  And then they're looking, you know, like they've just had a
• 1:01:08
  sun tan. You know, it was it was a big
• 1:01:11
  part of the world and and it I kind of I loved working on that
• 1:01:16
  whole section. It also creates the atmosphere
• 1:01:18
  and environment of that, the cold of that world and that so
• 1:01:21
  you know, it was. And the boat sounds like it was
• 1:01:23
  built out in the parking lot, right?
• 1:01:25
  Yeah, that sounds trite when you say it like that, because I ran
• 1:01:29
  in, I ran in September and I and they were laying out, I had some
• 1:01:32
  yellow tape and were laying out the floor pan and went, oh,
• 1:01:34
  that's nice. And walked my office in the
• 1:01:36
  costume park with this giant car park and all our crew.
• 1:01:40
  And then I think I took photos almost every week the car
• 1:01:43
  parking disappeared as the boat got bigger and bigger.
• 1:01:46
  There were like 100 people on it and it was they finished it in
• 1:01:50
  end of January or February. There was A and it was built a
• 1:01:54
  real. Boat.
• 1:01:55
  It's built to a real boat on. I mean, Tamara is phenomenal
• 1:01:59
  here and her team and but she's like, she's like got blood in
• 1:02:02
  her mouth. She's going to get that pig
• 1:02:04
  done. And this boat was huge.
• 1:02:05
  They did the rigging, the surfacing.
• 1:02:08
  I mean, it was it was a monumental thing that they did.
• 1:02:11
  And then here we are in the costume department moaning about
• 1:02:13
  lack of car parts. And then at one point we
• 1:02:17
  couldn't even get into the carpet.
• 1:02:19
  We had to park like 3 miles down the road and get shuttled.
• 1:02:22
  Oh my goodness. And but it was surreal and
• 1:02:25
  you're sitting out there and we'd all sit there and all the
• 1:02:27
  light disappeared from my offices.
• 1:02:29
  This boat got bigger and bigger. And it actually also became it's
• 1:02:34
  not a centerpiece for all of us. You know, sometimes you work on
• 1:02:36
  sets and you, you don't even feel you're on a project.
• 1:02:39
  You know, I like my crew to be part of it.
• 1:02:40
  And sometimes you're ensconced somewhere off, out of the
• 1:02:43
  studios, out of anywhere. And they don't, nobody feels
• 1:02:45
  they're on a film With Guillermo and with Tamara, you're
• 1:02:48
  definitely on a film. You're definitely aware that
• 1:02:50
  you're building this massive piece.
• 1:02:52
  And it's changes everything. It changes everything.
• 1:02:56
  Yeah. And to admire what paint and
• 1:02:58
  construction are doing, you know, and seeing everybody's
• 1:03:01
  work. I think that was so we could
• 1:03:03
  just walk around the studios and go, oh, look what they're doing
• 1:03:05
  there and then run back in a panic to do our bit.
• 1:03:07
  But, you know, it was so lovely to celebrate that.
• 1:03:09
  The detail of what everybody did, every prop, every piece of
• 1:03:13
  scenic cart was sort of mind boggling really.
• 1:03:16
  But people still had to be clever within it.
• 1:03:18
  You know, it wasn't an open license.
• 1:03:19
  Daddy wanted everything, but we still had to sort of work out
• 1:03:21
  how to do it. Finally, let's talk about the
• 1:03:25
  creature. Yeah, played by.
• 1:03:28
  The amazing Yes, yes. Played by the amazing Jacob the
• 1:03:32
  Lordy, we see that character go through quite an evolution.
• 1:03:37
  He goes through a lot. Can you walk us through that
• 1:03:41
  evolution and the experience, the challenges working with,
• 1:03:46
  quite frankly, beautiful prosthetics?
• 1:03:50
  Oh, exquisite. I mean, Mike is brilliant and
• 1:03:53
  he's an artist. And I had the first moment a
• 1:03:57
  year before working with Mike and and Guy Davis, Mike had
• 1:04:01
  already been working with Guillermo making these
• 1:04:03
  exquisite. I mean, he's an amazing
• 1:04:05
  sculptor, an amazing drawer. And then he actually does the
• 1:04:08
  work himself. I can't I can't claim to do
• 1:04:11
  that. So he's extraordinary and he, he
• 1:04:14
  was building all these maquettes, just they didn't have
• 1:04:16
  cars. He was just sort of working on
• 1:04:17
  the idea of them. And I was so lucky to be
• 1:04:20
  listening and aware of that conversation, you know,
• 1:04:22
  describing they were talking about the creature's skin, he
• 1:04:24
  and Guillermo. And like, would it have
• 1:04:26
  qualities of a wax, you know, model, a medical model, you
• 1:04:30
  know, that or the translucency of a baby bird when he was
• 1:04:33
  young. So definitely those
• 1:04:34
  conversations, you know, talked about the sort of silhouette of
• 1:04:40
  him, the quality of his skin and texture.
• 1:04:42
  But also they started talking about the stages of him.
• 1:04:45
  So we have the birth of the creature and he's a child.
• 1:04:49
  And then, you know, learns language.
• 1:04:51
  His first word's Victor and the second word's Elizabeth and the
• 1:04:55
  third word's friend. And then so the next stage is in
• 1:04:57
  the forest. He gains the the coat from an
• 1:05:00
  old soldier. He goes to the mill and
• 1:05:02
  discovers friendship and love and he learns words and becomes
• 1:05:08
  a nobled with him. So he he grows even more in
• 1:05:11
  stature and you know, his clothings, you know, although
• 1:05:14
  wild on that kind of suggestion of old wild Prince, you know,
• 1:05:17
  and Guillermo definitely talked about the wedding night being
• 1:05:20
  his wedding night. But all these stages of the
• 1:05:23
  creature were a mirror image to Oscar as Victor.
• 1:05:27
  So they had to mirror each other all the time.
• 1:05:28
  So what happened to one eventually happened to the
• 1:05:31
  other. And at the end in the Arctic,
• 1:05:32
  that's no more true. You know, you have Victor with
• 1:05:35
  the broken, smashed up nose, wild beard and wild animal,
• 1:05:39
  broken limbs and our creature has gained language, become
• 1:05:42
  ennobled and wearing all these other layers.
• 1:05:45
  But in between that and I think Mike forgets he's done all this.
• 1:05:49
  I'm sure he doesn't forget, but maybe in the trauma he's he was
• 1:05:53
  doing, you know, you know, every moment there's a hand snapping
• 1:05:56
  here, there's a bullet wound going through there.
• 1:05:58
  There's an exploded chest that expose all the rib cage.
• 1:06:01
  There's an eye missing. As this happens, he gets shot,
• 1:06:04
  he gets things. And every time this creature is
• 1:06:06
  going through this rebirth. It was another set of
• 1:06:08
  prosthetics for Mike. And Mike had eight weeks at the
• 1:06:11
  time that Jacob joined. But when we say 8 weeks, that's
• 1:06:14
  being a bit, that's not really the reality of it.
• 1:06:17
  You know, your actor gets cast, he's in Australia.
• 1:06:20
  Mike's trying to get him scanned over there.
• 1:06:23
  We're all trying to get him scanned because we all want the
• 1:06:25
  info, Mike most urgently of all. But we want the 3D scan to know
• 1:06:29
  what we're dealing with. Can't even get measurements.
• 1:06:31
  And Mike's trying to rebuild the whole, all, the, all the, you
• 1:06:36
  know, the prosthetics again from scratch, you know, And so at the
• 1:06:39
  beginning, you know, a moment of kindness in the filmmaking.
• 1:06:42
  We started at the very end with in the forgiveness scene and on
• 1:06:45
  the ice where they're fully clothed so that Mike could focus
• 1:06:48
  on areas and, and we could help cover that and move.
• 1:06:53
  But all the time, you know, different things happen
• 1:06:55
  throughout this and you have to be aware of what he can supply
• 1:06:59
  and do. It makes a difference between 10
• 1:07:00
  or 12 hours in the makeup chair and five, you know, even the
• 1:07:04
  hands, which are so delicate and beautiful.
• 1:07:06
  There's all these beautiful references and you know, when
• 1:07:09
  Mike was and Gemma were talking about the creature, he's was
• 1:07:13
  something, it was like Victor going back to him as an artist
• 1:07:16
  creating or being like Michelangelo creating David, you
• 1:07:20
  know, So you know, those things you have to listen to and
• 1:07:23
  understand. It's not a clumsy thing.
• 1:07:24
  It's it's bespoke. And you know, even all that gear
• 1:07:27
  that was created on the table of creation, which was almost like
• 1:07:31
  another crucifixion. You know, we had to interact
• 1:07:34
  with Mike and we had to interact with Christopher Giggy and our
• 1:07:37
  props team. And there's all those rib cages
• 1:07:39
  and metal pieces that had to all link to the and, and things that
• 1:07:45
  created this creature, you know, all the, the wrappings and that.
• 1:07:48
  So there was a huge amount of work back and forth.
• 1:07:50
  And Jacob, you know, when he came on, he was straight into
• 1:07:54
  the work, straight into the role.
• 1:07:56
  And again, it was sitting back and watching, you know, Mike LED
• 1:08:00
  all of this. And then my job is to support
• 1:08:03
  the movement and then work out the silhouette and proportions
• 1:08:06
  of that, you know, work out in discussion with Gemma Mike where
• 1:08:09
  those sleeves started and finished.
• 1:08:11
  You know, not only exaggerating the length because honestly,
• 1:08:14
  Jacob's quite exaggerated anyway.
• 1:08:17
  And I, and not not sounding like a lascivious old lady, but just
• 1:08:20
  in terms of our history, he's got this sort of almost a
• 1:08:24
  classical figure, you know, and, but, but at the same time he's
• 1:08:28
  been studying Bhutto and he talks about it so beautifully.
• 1:08:31
  If you can watch any of his, you know, talks online and how
• 1:08:36
  Bhutto. And I might get this wrong
• 1:08:38
  because I've been listening to the Q&A's that sort of
• 1:08:42
  represents sort of the balance of fire and water.
• 1:08:44
  And, you know, 1 can be feeling one element and another can be
• 1:08:48
  feeling something different. And I think, again, I don't want
• 1:08:51
  to speak on behalf of Gemma and Jacob, but the idea of one part
• 1:08:56
  of the body not even relating to the other, you know, it's again,
• 1:08:59
  the memories of things. And you know, when you
• 1:09:01
  understand what his process is and you're reading the script,
• 1:09:04
  that moment where he picks up the the coat that was really the
• 1:09:08
  image of a flayed man's skin. You know, the coat became that,
• 1:09:11
  you know, when I looked at, you know, we talked about this
• 1:09:13
  graveyard and Gemma wanted this coat.
• 1:09:16
  It was looking at, I looked at, you know, again in the research
• 1:09:18
  where it can help and form ideas, looking at Pete men and
• 1:09:22
  how close that as the skeleton and the flesh dissolves onto the
• 1:09:25
  skeleton, it takes, it takes on the memory of that.
• 1:09:29
  And this whole idea that sort of knowing that Mike had worked
• 1:09:33
  from the inside out. And we did this with Elizabeth
• 1:09:36
  in her wedding dress. It was the same thing as sort of
• 1:09:38
  bringing out the qualities of his form and and body through
• 1:09:42
  the clothing and as the memories of a man.
• 1:09:44
  And then the lawyers went on, he got clothes from the peasants,
• 1:09:48
  you know, in the form of shoes and and clothes and kind of a
• 1:09:52
  almost like a Rasputin tunic. You know, there's sort of a
• 1:09:55
  slightly religious element to the hood, you know, monastic
• 1:09:58
  quality that came to that world, you know, so there's lots of
• 1:10:01
  little subtle changes in tone as we went through that.
• 1:10:05
  And then we had to create, we created bonded fabrics to
• 1:10:08
  suggest, you know, textures and things and all these iterations
• 1:10:12
  of modes that happened like, you know, the the explosion of
• 1:10:15
  dynamite, you go or, you know, it's going to be exaggerated
• 1:10:18
  because this is a giant thing of dynamite and he's still
• 1:10:21
  standing. How do we do that?
• 1:10:23
  And how do we keep it was a heavy garment already and how do
• 1:10:26
  we do that? And then Jacob's got to go into
• 1:10:28
  water with it. And so we created all these
• 1:10:31
  bonded textiles that you sort of see in that last scene of
• 1:10:35
  forgiveness and then those last scenes of the Arctic.
• 1:10:36
  And it sort of has, you know, almost a feather like
• 1:10:39
  appearance, you know, So, you know, we when, when Guillermo
• 1:10:43
  talks a break about breakdown, things happening, there's the
• 1:10:46
  literal thing that you have to address, you know, is it a
• 1:10:48
  bullet? Is it a, you know, a giant
• 1:10:51
  cannon? You know, what is it that's
• 1:10:52
  happening? But with him, breakdown becomes
• 1:10:54
  poetic. And I go back to the sailors,
• 1:10:56
  you know, really the snow was a form of breakdown.
• 1:10:59
  But we, we sort of use it in a poetic sense, not a, a truly
• 1:11:03
  real sense, you know, and I love the idea of breakdown, you know,
• 1:11:07
  being that, you know, I, I, when we did Harley Quinn, all the
• 1:11:10
  colours ran Night tears. And so I like making that part
• 1:11:14
  of the storytelling, not just a tool of this is what happened.
• 1:11:18
  And I think that's part of the process that I enjoy and why I
• 1:11:24
  love that department so much. Well, Kate, we could talk to you
• 1:11:28
  forever about your work and Frankenstein.
• 1:11:31
  There's so much to get into. We're glad we have like books
• 1:11:33
  such as lists that we could dive into all the details our
• 1:11:37
  ourselves. There's nuns coming when he does
• 1:11:39
  the editive cut. There's all the convent we made
• 1:11:41
  that you don't see. Oh, good.
• 1:11:42
  Yeah, we, we want, we want more. But before we let you go, but
• 1:11:48
  because we know you're getting ready to head back to New
• 1:11:50
  Zealand for some time first. I mean, if we have to talk about
• 1:11:56
  your crew too, which I know they mean so much to you and there's
• 1:11:59
  so many details in this film and it won't be possible without
• 1:12:03
  them. So before we let you go, I mean,
• 1:12:05
  can we just shout out your crew a little bit and some of the
• 1:12:07
  great people that made this? Possible and Oh my God, I have a
• 1:12:10
  don't forget anyone so please forgive me.
• 1:12:12
  Would like to acknowledge my all my main heads, but if I can kind
• 1:12:16
  of go all my Toronto crew, all my UK crew, all those people
• 1:12:21
  that were satellite workshops and work rooms throughout Italy,
• 1:12:25
  Madrid, Toronto. And you know, let's start with a
• 1:12:30
  wonderful runner ton and you know, Toronto department who
• 1:12:33
  made every bloody cup of coffee running around everything.
• 1:12:36
  But he was incredibly special person and will probably be the
• 1:12:40
  producer running our asses later on down the line.
• 1:12:42
  And my assistants, Renee, Alex, David, Jane, the long-suffering
• 1:12:47
  Jane moving paper around my table all the time, our buyers,
• 1:12:50
  Fiona and Trish, all our onset teams led by Shannon and Lydia.
• 1:12:57
  You know, our tailors, Phil Atfield Shark, Judy, his first
• 1:13:02
  hand, Daniel, Bernard, lead Cutter for the Creature and
• 1:13:07
  Victor and amongst many others, Martia, Nicole, Angela, Augusta,
• 1:13:12
  Silvi, Josh, all of all of that team on the work room floor are
• 1:13:16
  milliners Lorraine and Lily Lewis in the UK and all their
• 1:13:21
  teams are breakdown departments. Megan with Olivia, Bobby, Roxy
• 1:13:25
  and Michael McNamara and his team in the UK, Brendan, our
• 1:13:29
  supervisors, Joe, Carla, Matt, Jennifer, Corey, Brandon and
• 1:13:32
  Jerry and all of those people in between.
• 1:13:35
  I haven't missed them out on purpose, but everybody,
• 1:13:38
  everybody put in like every crew does on every show these days.
• 1:13:41
  But totally beloved, grateful. Everybody's so good at their job
• 1:13:45
  and every part of the process is reliant on everyone stepping up
• 1:13:49
  to it. And I so really our background
• 1:13:52
  team over there, Carla and Matthew, I hardly had to say
• 1:13:57
  anything. Everyone knew what we're doing
• 1:13:58
  and everyone matched it and did better.
• 1:14:01
  And we're also just a bloody great joy to work with, you
• 1:14:04
  know, and most special. It's an incredible team and it
• 1:14:09
  just shows that there's such cohesion between all of you.
• 1:14:12
  Everyone put their whole soul into this movie.
• 1:14:15
  And. It shows in every detail.
• 1:14:18
  They really did. And an extra shout out to Tamara
• 1:14:21
  and Shane and Guy Davis give us lead concept designer.
• 1:14:24
  And Dan Loudston, I don't know it's frocks, but he showed
• 1:14:28
  enough interest to really support us with all the lighting
• 1:14:31
  and that. It's everything you know, Mike,
• 1:14:33
  everybody, you know, we're all united and we can't do our job
• 1:14:37
  without the other. So, and it's a testament to
• 1:14:40
  Guillermo above all. It's his vision, you know, we're
• 1:14:43
  all working under that. We, we collaborate.
• 1:14:46
  He he instills a tone, a way of working.
• 1:14:50
  And quite frankly, it's a joy and a privilege.
• 1:14:53
  So. And finally, last question
• 1:14:56
  before I let you go. What?
• 1:14:57
  What has Frankenstein meant to you?
• 1:15:01
  It shows in spite of everything going on, you can still be an
• 1:15:04
  artist in this world. And I don't want to work in a
• 1:15:09
  world where you can't build and make things, you know, and it's,
• 1:15:14
  it's a really special when you go out and you talk about
• 1:15:18
  there's so many people went. This is why we joined the
• 1:15:20
  industry to be doing our work and having this craft where
• 1:15:23
  storytellers, we build things, we build worlds and that and I,
• 1:15:27
  I would hate that to be lost because, you know, even the and
• 1:15:31
  gamer speaks to this so highly. Even the challenges and the
• 1:15:35
  things that go wrong are part of that thing that creates vision.
• 1:15:39
  It's not perfect. You know, it's, it's a very fact
• 1:15:42
  that you have limitations and challenges and then you have
• 1:15:46
  this sort of wonderful sort of knocking ball between you all
• 1:15:50
  that, you know, it's, it's, it's an alchemy between people and
• 1:15:53
  you know, I, I love that in this world.
• 1:15:55
  So Frankenstein, I think it it just, you know, that's how we
• 1:16:00
  want to work and not every project will be as big as that
• 1:16:04
  and nor do you want it to be, but you.
• 1:16:06
  Know. That that's, and I I say that
• 1:16:08
  with love because they become more special because of that.
• 1:16:10
  But you know, if we can enjoy that on an everyday thing,
• 1:16:15
  that's an absolute luxury. And yeah, I will be always be a
• 1:16:19
  very, very special project. Well, you're making me tear up,
• 1:16:25
  Kate. I'm just so, I'm so happy for
• 1:16:28
  you. I'm so proud of you.
• 1:16:29
  We're just so happy that you could be.
• 1:16:31
  Here, I'll grow up one day. I'll be a proper designer one
• 1:16:33
  day, Spencer. Costume designer Kate Hawley,
• 1:16:37
  thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:16:38
  Congratulations. This is such incredible work.
• 1:16:41
  And you know, we, we've got to know you over these past couple
• 1:16:44
  years and we've been looking forward to this for years.
• 1:16:48
  And it just, it was so worth the wait.
• 1:16:50
  So thank you for talking with us.
• 1:16:51
  All right, I'm going to be a very irreverent old lady.
• 1:16:55
  And thank you for being our friend and I can't wait to see.
• 1:16:57
  You next time you're in, it's a pleasure.
• 1:16:58
  I learned from everybody and I really of everything getting to
• 1:17:02
  meet everybody and my colleagues like Margotia and that that
• 1:17:06
  celebrating their work, the friendship is really important
• 1:17:09
  and I really value that with you too as well.
• 1:17:12
  Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Elizabeth.
• 1:17:17
  Spencer That was such an amazing interview, one of my favourites,
• 1:17:22
  quite frankly. We've all of our interviews have
• 1:17:25
  been incredible, but it to hear her passion about this project
• 1:17:29
  was amazing. Yeah, I mean, she's just truly
• 1:17:32
  an artist who you could tell who really loves what she does
• 1:17:35
  doesn't do it for any of the, you know, obviously it's award
• 1:17:39
  season. That has nothing to do with why
• 1:17:41
  she loves what she's doing. She truly loves her crew and you
• 1:17:47
  know, just does this for the joy and it just really came through
• 1:17:50
  and just such incredible work. So let's let's give this thing a
• 1:17:55
  stitch rating. Yeah, Spencer, what's your
• 1:17:58
  stitch rating? I'm just gonna give it a 5.
• 1:18:02
  Honestly. Same.
• 1:18:03
  I love this movie. Yeah.
• 1:18:04
  I just think it's such a perfect movie.
• 1:18:07
  I've, I think when I saw it the first time, I might have been
• 1:18:09
  like a little bit lower in terms of like the pacing, but I've now
• 1:18:12
  gone on a scene it like 3-4 times and I've liked it more
• 1:18:16
  every time. So you just have to, you just
• 1:18:20
  got to immerse yourself in it. It it really is incredible.
• 1:18:23
  And I've read the book and I know a little bit about the life
• 1:18:27
  of Mary Shelley. Not a ton, but I think he
• 1:18:32
  captured her themes and what she was going through in her life
• 1:18:36
  when she wrote this. I believe she had just lost a
• 1:18:38
  child when she wrote this. So I think he he really captured
• 1:18:44
  the feminine aspects of this story better than any other
• 1:18:49
  adaptation before. It's, I feel like a lot of
• 1:18:52
  adaptations are about man's pursuit of science and like,
• 1:18:58
  where are, you know, responsibility lies in that
• 1:19:04
  world? But I think he really brought
• 1:19:06
  out the grief and loneliness and what it means to make life as a
• 1:19:14
  woman and a person and like, what responsibilities you have.
• 1:19:18
  And I feel like he really captured that.
• 1:19:20
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've, I've never read the book,
• 1:19:23
  but I would love to very much so it's actually in my cart.
• 1:19:27
  But of course I have to look for like the right addition.
• 1:19:29
  I don't watch any any copy of Frankenstein You.
• 1:19:33
  Know I yeah, understandable. Let's do Let's make things a
• 1:19:38
  little bit more difficult, though.
• 1:19:39
  Let's play our favorite game. One costume rule them all.
• 1:19:42
  Stop the one costume to rule them all all.
• 1:19:52
  Right. Do you know yours?
• 1:19:53
  I do. OK.
• 1:19:55
  MY1 costume to rule them all is Elizabeth's wedding gown.
• 1:20:00
  Yeah, that's a good one. Especially after hearing her
• 1:20:03
  talk about it and like the ribbon bodice, all the thought
• 1:20:06
  that was put into the practical effect of the blood seeping into
• 1:20:11
  her gown. It's just strikingly beautiful.
• 1:20:16
  Pays homage to the Bride of Frankenstein, which you know
• 1:20:19
  they. Didn't have to do, but they did.
• 1:20:21
  It No, they didn't have to do it.
• 1:20:24
  Kate just does her research so well and Guillermo is known for
• 1:20:28
  loving older films. So I thought that was a really
• 1:20:30
  beautiful tribute to, you know, one of the films that did make
• 1:20:35
  Frankenstein popular in today's pop culture and image people
• 1:20:42
  continue to use. So I thought that was really
• 1:20:44
  beautiful. Well, my favorite costume, I
• 1:20:47
  mean, there's some way to choose from, especially like from
• 1:20:49
  Elizabeth. But my favorite costume is
• 1:20:52
  actually seen in the beginning of the film, Claire, Victor's
• 1:20:56
  mother, when you see her on the steps and that red veil, that
• 1:21:00
  silk that's just blowing in the wind.
• 1:21:02
  I tell it when I was in the theater and I saw that for the
• 1:21:05
  first time, I got chills. I felt like the hair stand up on
• 1:21:08
  my. Arms.
• 1:21:09
  And it's it's not even that complicated of a costume in
• 1:21:12
  terms of like everything else was seen in this film, but just
• 1:21:15
  that image. If everyone lined up on the
• 1:21:17
  stairs, everyone veiled and Victor just looking so stoic
• 1:21:21
  next to his mother. Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:21:23
  That's just like an image that that just stuck with me.
• 1:21:26
  And it just I immediately knew I was like, I'm going to like this
• 1:21:29
  movie. Even in the trailer, I was like,
• 1:21:30
  oh, I want whatever that is. But.
• 1:21:33
  I love seeing that for the first time because from the trailers I
• 1:21:36
  was a little bit confused 'cause it almost that scene looks like
• 1:21:42
  they're about to process to his mother's funeral.
• 1:21:45
  So I was like, who's that woman in this red?
• 1:21:48
  But seeing that, it's like them waiting for the his father to
• 1:21:51
  come and it's almost like that's like the sign that she's about
• 1:21:55
  to die. It's the dad coming and treating
• 1:21:59
  them all like shit. Horrible.
• 1:22:02
  So good. I'm so glad we got to start this
• 1:22:05
  season with Frankenstein. It was such a fun episode.
• 1:22:09
  And thank you again to Costume Desire Kate Holley for being on
• 1:22:12
  this episode with us and sharing.
• 1:22:15
  And there's still so much great stuff out there.
• 1:22:17
  Like I said, there's this book by Sheila O'Malley that you
• 1:22:20
  should all check out that has just so much great behind the
• 1:22:23
  scenes information. Or you could just, I don't know,
• 1:22:27
  ask us and maybe we'll do a second episode or something if
• 1:22:29
  you want the real stuff. Yeah, with that, with that, we
• 1:22:38
  hope you all e-mail us at theartofcostume@gmail.com.
• 1:22:41
  Let us know what your one costume rule of them all was
• 1:22:45
  from the film Frankenstein. There's so many to choose from,
• 1:22:48
  so think about it and let us know.
• 1:22:51
  Follow us on Instagram at The Art of Costume Pod, TikTok at
• 1:22:54
  The Art of Costume. We also have a merch store at
• 1:22:57
  theartofcostume.com/podstore. And of course, we have the
• 1:23:01
  costume house with Spencer Williams and our sister podcast,
• 1:23:05
  which has interviews with other costume designers as well, such
• 1:23:09
  as Christine Clark from Tron Aries.
• 1:23:12
  We have another one which might have come out this week, but I
• 1:23:15
  don't want to say it out loud just in case, but it's a, it's
• 1:23:19
  a, another incredible huge film. And if it's not out this week,
• 1:23:22
  it'll be out next week. So just keep an eye out.
• 1:23:25
  Great stuff coming out on that sister podcast.
• 1:23:27
  But Elizabeth, what do we have coming out next on part of
• 1:23:30
  Costume Podcast? So I'm so excited.
• 1:23:33
  Next month is February and while we were doing our Vampire month
• 1:23:38
  for spooky season last year, we watched Interview with a Vampire
• 1:23:44
  and just the toxic relationships really inspired our Valentine's
• 1:23:53
  Day series, which is Toxic Romance Month here at The Art of
• 1:24:00
  Costume. Starting off with a favorite, I
• 1:24:05
  think of anyone who loves costume design, Anna Karenina.
• 1:24:09
  Yeah, it's, it's a good one. I watched it the other night to
• 1:24:13
  prepare and I'm, I'm, I'm obsessed with it.
• 1:24:16
  It's good. I'm glad we're starting at toxic
• 1:24:18
  relationships. Well, we're we're really doing
• 1:24:21
  the Lord's work on this podcast. Thank you.
• 1:24:25
  You've got to let people see the red flag.
• 1:24:28
  It's it's the, it's February, it's the season of yearning and,
• 1:24:32
  you know, emotions and toxicity and love.
• 1:24:36
  So let's go for it. I'm so excited to talk about it
• 1:24:39
  in our next episode. Thank you all for listening.
• 1:24:42
  And until then? Have a good award.
• 1:24:44
  Season. Yeah, There you go.
• 1:24:46
  See. Whatever movies are coming back
• 1:24:48
  to the theaters. Right.
• 1:24:50
  And if you meet any like weird surgeons or anything, they're
• 1:24:54
  observing your body parts and talking about a big project to
• 1:24:57
  just don't do it. Don't.
• 1:24:59
  Don't do it. Don't go.
• 1:25:00
  Not worth it. Yeah, it starts measuring you
• 1:25:03
  with a tape measure. It's not good.
• 1:25:06
  Run. We'll see you next time.