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Managing Fishing Vessels: Uncovering the Hidden Ownership of Industrial Fleets · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:00
  You see a seafood label with a country of
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  origin, but you don't really know where
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  that fish came from.
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  Behind every fishing vessel is a story
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  and sometimes a shell company.
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  Oceana uncovered a hidden world where
• 1:00:13
  thousands of industrial
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  fishing ships fly one flag,
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  but answer to another. Flags of
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  convenience, foreign
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  ownership, and zero transparency have
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  become business as usual on the high
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  seas. This isn't just
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  paperwork, it's a system that enables
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  illegal fishing and drains wealth from
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  coastal communities. When 62% of vessels
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  lack ownership info,
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  who is responsible for what happens at
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  sea? Some nations like
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  Panama and Belize host fleets,
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  they don't even control, but there's a
• 1:00:43
  movement growing to demand transparency,
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  accountability, and fairness in global
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  fisheries. In today's
• 1:00:49
  episode, we uncover the truth behind
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  the flag and what needs to change because
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  protecting the ocean starts with knowing
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  who's really behind the wheel. We're
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  going to discuss this and more on this
• 1:00:59
  episode of the How to
• 1:01:00
  Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:01:01
  Let's start the show.
• 1:01:04
  Hey everybody, welcome back to another
• 1:01:06
  exciting episode of the How
• 1:01:07
  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lew, and this is
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  the podcast where you find out what's
• 1:01:10
  happening with the ocean,
• 1:01:11
  how you can speak up for the ocean and
• 1:01:13
  what you can do to live for a better
• 1:01:14
  ocean by taking action.
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  On today's episode, I am very delighted
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  to welcome Oceana's Dr. Daniel Scarritt.
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  He's part of their research team for
• 1:01:24
  their global fisheries unit. This is
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  going to be one you're going to want to
• 1:01:30
  watch. This is going to be one you're
• 1:01:31
  going to want to listen to if you watch
• 1:01:32
  this on YouTube or listening to this on
• 1:01:34
  your favorite podcast app. We're going to
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  be talking about this report that came
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  out in May of 2025 of this year called
• 1:01:39
  Beyond the Flag State Paradigm. It's
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  Beyond the Flag State Paradigm,
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  reconstructing the world's large scale
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  fishing fleet through
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  corporate ownership analysis. What we're
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  going to be talking about is all the
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  things that corporations and that the
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  fishing fleet get away with. It's going
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  to be really interesting. Daniel breaks
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  it down for us. He talks about what comes
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  out of this report, talks about the
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  recommendations. You know, we get into it
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  a little bit in terms of the weeds of
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  like what information is missing.
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  Sometimes just fishing vessel length is
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  missing and the surprising things of what
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  people can get away with when they're at
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  sea. I think this is an interesting
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  episode for people need to listen to.
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  Listen and watch very carefully and
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  really understand how complex fisheries
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  is. It's about how we can detangle the
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  complexity of global ocean fisheries.
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  This is what we're going to be talking
• 1:02:29
  about today's episode. I can't wait for
• 1:02:30
  you to listen. But before you do, if you
• 1:02:32
  want to learn more about how to protect
• 1:02:34
  the ocean and be guided to do so, I want
• 1:02:37
  you to join the undertow is this new
• 1:02:39
  company that I am a co founder of with
• 1:02:41
  two incredible people Serena and Amanda.
• 1:02:43
  And we are here to guide you through on how to protect the ocean.
• 1:02:47
  Better through the undertow. It's a
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  digital app about the ocean that we're
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  creating and I can't wait for you to
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  join. There's a waiting list right now
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  because we haven't launched the app.
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  We're going to be launching the app soon.
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  I have to do is go to speak up for
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  blue.com forward slash join the undertow
• 1:03:01
  that speak up for blue.com forward slash
• 1:03:03
  join the undertow. While after you do
• 1:03:06
  that, come back and listening to this
• 1:03:08
  episode. It's going to be really
• 1:03:09
  interesting. Here's the interview with
• 1:03:11
  Dr. Dana scare it talking about the new
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  report from Oceana beyond
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  the flag state paradigm.
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  Reconstructing the world's largest scale
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  fishing fleet through corporate ownership
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  analysis. We're going to get into it.
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  It's going to be a lot of fun. Enjoy the
• 1:03:24
  interview and I'll talk to you after.
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  Hey, Dan. Welcome to the how to protect
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  the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk
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  about who owns the fishing vessels?
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  Absolutely. Yeah, it's there. Wonderful.
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  I'm excited because this is a topic that
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  is near and dear to my heart. When I
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  first started like when I was like a
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  student, I first started to learn about
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  fisheries just when I was a student. I started to learn about fisheries.
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  Just worldwide. I realize how complex it
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  is and it's not just something like you
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  have a boat. It's registered to such and
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  such country under such and such
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  company's name and it's run by a certain
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  captain and blah, blah, blah. And they go
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  out and they get this type of fish. They
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  come back and it's all locked. That's
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  what I think logically should happen.
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  Unfortunately, it doesn't work out
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  completely that way and it can get quite
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  complex, which makes monitoring fisheries
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  even more difficult and you work for
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  Oceana. Oceana came out with a report back in the day.
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  It's a long title. We're going to break it all down for you. And then we might go
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  a little beyond not only beyond the flag,
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  but get into the research because Dan,
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  you are a researcher. So before we get
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  into all of the report, everything, let's
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  find out more about you, Dan. Why don't you let us know who you are and what you do. Yeah, cool. I'm Daniel Scarrett. I'm a
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  senior manager of international fisheries
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  Oceana and as you implied, I'm not a
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  campaigner. I'm a researcher and I work
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  in Oceana's global science and strategy
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  team. So we we support campaign and we
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  support campaign. And I think we're going
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  to be able to do that.
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  I'm a research manager of international
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  fisheries Oceana and as you implied, I'm
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  not a campaigner. I'm a researcher and I
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  work in Oceana's global science and
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  strategy team. So we we support
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  campaigners throughout all our Oceana
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  offices and also do kind of some novel
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  research like this
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  report you talked about.
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  And most of the work I do is on
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  international fisheries, particularly
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  distant water fishing fleets. These are
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  the vessels that fish either in the high
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  seas or away from their home port and in
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  in the waters of other countries.
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  And, you know, by nature, they're quite
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  difficult, as you said, to to manage and
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  our work is, you know, we try to reveal
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  some of the behaviors and the issues that
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  are related to that
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  that kind of fishing fleet.
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  And when you know you're at this point in
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  your career now doing this type of work,
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  how did this all begin? Did you expect
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  when you first started out, you know,
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  learning about marine science and marine
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  biology? Did you expect
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  to be where you are today?
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  No.
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  My background was in was in fisheries
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  ecology, you know, and as you said about
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  complexity, right? Like, you know, the
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  ecosystem that all these fishing fleets
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  rely on and are
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  extracting an insanely complex.
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  And now a lot of the time, you know, it's
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  more about kind of politics and corporate
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  power as we'll get onto. But no, I didn't
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  I didn't expect this.
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  But I'm happy that I've kind of followed
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  that thread to the place I am now. Yeah.
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  Well, when you first like when I first
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  started out, you know, I was always like
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  I'm going to it's all about the animals.
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  It's all about, you know, food webs and
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  animal biology and conservation. So I
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  want to protect, you know, fish and
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  corals and seagrasses and mangroves and
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  all these different types of wonderful
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  habitats that, you know, I learned as I
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  grew up and I saw in these documentaries
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  and and I quickly realized probably about
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  after like during my master's degree, I
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  quickly realized that
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  if we want to manage.
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  And of course, I've confirmed this with a
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  number of other researchers and
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  colleagues that if we want to manage, you
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  know, fisheries, if we want to manage the
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  ocean properly, we
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  have to manage the people.
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  And and Dr. Ed Heinz was on is the one
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  who really kept that. He told me that one
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  time and I was like, that is probably
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  into the mantra of conservation. At what
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  point did you realize
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  first, do you agree with that?
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  And also like in what if you do, at what
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  point did you realize that that was
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  really what we we needed to focus on?
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  Yeah, no, I mean, I do agree with that. I
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  think, you know, having said that, I
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  think without my kind of fisheries
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  background, that fisheries science
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  background, I wouldn't be able to do what
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  I do as well. I don't think I think
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  understanding that kind of
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  the biological aspect of it.
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  Right. That that that impacts the
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  societal, you know, the way these fishing
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  fleets behave, right? They follow
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  currents and they follow the fish.
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  So I think that there's a fundamental
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  necessity, as you said, to kind of
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  understand the ecology
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  and the biology beneath it.
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  But I think I first realized about, as
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  you say, that fisheries management is
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  probably as much about
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  managing people as it is about fish.
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  When I first started working with fishes
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  and directly going on fishing boats and,
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  you know, kind of realizing, you know,
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  every day they're out there making these
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  kind of decisions exactly where to fish,
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  you know, how to fish and different parts
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  of the fishing fleet and fishing vessels
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  within that are
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  behaving differently, right?
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  Like they don't all have, they're not
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  going out on this kind of nine to five
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  logging in fishing in a particular area
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  coming home. Like, you know, there's this
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  kind of behavioral strategies between the
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  different individuals and kind of
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  realizing that that human aspect of
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  fisheries and the individuality of those
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  people, just as you have in fish, I
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  guess, you know, really kind of triggered
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  that for me of realizing like the people
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  are as important as the fish.
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  But ultimately, you know, it starts by
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  trying to conserve the fish without the
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  fish. There isn't the jobs.
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  So, you know, you have to conserve the
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  fish to have the jobs that rely on them.
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  Yeah, it's such a dependable
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  relationship, you know, when you really
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  think about having that understanding.
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  Because like when I first got into it, I
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  was all about stock assessments and I'm
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  like, this is where the
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  bulk of the data lies.
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  And it's a very
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  important part of the data.
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  And you have worked over before we press
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  record, you're telling me
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  you've worked in Canada.
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  So, you know, a little bit of the history
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  of stock assessments, you know, and in
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  the role that plays in really
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  understanding the dynamics of how
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  fisheries are doing and assessing how
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  fisheries are doing and how sometimes
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  politicians don't listen to the stock
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  assessment biologists and to and you
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  know, and it and it has, you know,
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  consequences to that.
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  You know, we're looking at the cod
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  fishery in the early 90s and so forth in
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  the recovery from that. And even to this
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  day, it seems like there, you know,
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  politicians are still not
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  listening to the science.
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  And I would say this works all in between
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  all three of those from the scientists,
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  the government and the fishers.
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  You know, one of my favorite books I
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  would recommend for anyone who's in
• 1:10:09
  fishery sciences, Fishing for Truth,
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  right, which is all about the cod
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  collapse on the on the in eastern Canada.
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  That talks about how, you know,
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  scientists as well weren't listening to
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  fishers who weren't listening.
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  You know, there was there was a
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  miscommunication and the end result was
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  this collapse of one of
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  the biggest fisheries ever.
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  I think. Yeah. Yeah. And still is, you
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  know, many parts isn't recovered.
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  So, you know, I would recommend that book
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  to understand the importance of people in
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  the fisheries and sadly, you know, the
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  not only did the people lose out, but,
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  you know, in this case,
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  the fish stock as well.
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  Absolutely.
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  So, you know, I think that's a really interesting question.
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  I mean, I think the scientists, the
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  scientists, just the people in general
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  have has improved in terms of
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  communication or do you think it's still
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  similar as it was in
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  the early 90s or even 80s?
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  I don't I don't think it's quite the
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  same. You know, I'd love
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  to be really positive here.
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  But it's not.
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  It's what it's all about.
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  But, you know, sadly, there's many fish
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  stocks, as you know, in Canada, as there
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  are here in the UK and in our waters that
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  are still overfished, right?
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  They're still actively being overfished
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  as well and not just
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  in an overfished state.
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  So I wouldn't say that
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  we've kind of we've made it.
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  But I do think there's a lot more
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  understanding of that
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  need for communication.
• 1:11:51
  Like there is a lot more importance put
• 1:11:55
  on the need for kind of consultation for
• 1:11:57
  for having those voices.
• 1:11:59
  I think the issue might be how do you
• 1:12:01
  then you know, those conversations may be
• 1:12:03
  happening, maybe not
• 1:12:04
  to a sufficient extent.
• 1:12:06
  I think the issue is still how do we how
• 1:12:08
  do we really implement that into our
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  stock assessments, how we set
• 1:12:11
  catches and things like that.
• 1:12:14
  I know I know in Canada at the moment,
• 1:12:15
  you know, there's a big kind of
• 1:12:18
  discussion as well about how to bring an
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  industry and First Nation, you know,
• 1:12:22
  these these different ways of thinking
• 1:12:23
  about how we should manage fish stocks.
• 1:12:26
  And I think a really good start is having
• 1:12:28
  those conversations,
• 1:12:29
  knowing it needs to be done.
• 1:12:31
  You know, I'm I'm sure there are great
• 1:12:34
  examples where it's happening and we
• 1:12:36
  could see and there are obviously
• 1:12:37
  examples where it
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  absolutely isn't happening.
• 1:12:39
  So I think we I think we are progressing.
• 1:12:42
  But obviously, you know, that kind of
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  golden, you know, standard of fishery
• 1:12:47
  science is still not not is, you know, is
• 1:12:50
  still elusive across every
• 1:12:51
  fishery that that we look at.
• 1:12:53
  Yeah, definitely something that needs to
• 1:12:55
  be improved upon. And I think we'll
• 1:12:56
  always need to be improved upon. There's
• 1:12:58
  there's a lot of stuff going on in the
• 1:13:00
  dynamics between almost the different
• 1:13:03
  silos of those aspects that we discussed,
• 1:13:06
  you know, the science, the politicians
• 1:13:07
  and and, you know,
• 1:13:10
  fishers, indigenous fishers.
• 1:13:11
  You know, there are definitely some
• 1:13:13
  conflicts in Canada and worldwide, you
• 1:13:16
  know, that we could highlight here for
• 1:13:18
  days, you know, it's that's probably an
• 1:13:19
  entire separate podcast, not even
• 1:13:21
  episode, but just podcast itself on on
• 1:13:24
  the the evolution of of that, that type
• 1:13:28
  of of conflict as well as hopefully
• 1:13:30
  resolution in the
• 1:13:31
  future and more resolutions.
• 1:13:33
  There are examples, there are some great
• 1:13:34
  examples, there are some awful examples
• 1:13:35
  as well. But we're here to talk about the
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  I don't want to get I go on tangents and
• 1:13:41
  I apologize, but, you know, it's really
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  interesting when you talk about people
• 1:13:45
  managing fisheries is what we really, you
• 1:13:48
  know, focus on a lot of the times.
• 1:13:50
  And that seems to be your focus. How did
• 1:13:53
  that transition like happen in your
• 1:13:55
  career where you started to see that
• 1:13:59
  light words like, okay, no, we need to
• 1:14:01
  start looking at how how fishing vessels
• 1:14:04
  and fisheries are are managed in general
• 1:14:06
  from the the vessel
• 1:14:08
  aspect, like who's fishing where?
• 1:14:10
  What are the policies around that? What
• 1:14:12
  are the interesting international and
• 1:14:14
  national laws around that? How did that
• 1:14:16
  transition happen for you?
• 1:14:17
  Yeah, I guess it was quite quite
• 1:14:20
  abruptly, actually. So after I finished
• 1:14:23
  my my PhD and first postdoc, which I said
• 1:14:27
  was all about ecology and behaviors of
• 1:14:30
  shellfish actually
• 1:14:31
  lobsters in particular.
• 1:14:32
  And I went and worked for a consultancy
• 1:14:35
  firm in London, Emrag, and we were doing
• 1:14:37
  a lot of evaluation for the European
• 1:14:40
  Commission as well as UK government. And,
• 1:14:43
  you know, we to start with a lot of that
• 1:14:46
  work was around catch
• 1:14:48
  setting tax and quotas.
• 1:14:49
  But obviously, a lot of that was also not
• 1:14:52
  just how do we set that tack and the
• 1:14:54
  total allowable catch and the quotas to
• 1:14:56
  catch that. But then how how is it being
• 1:14:58
  kept? Who is catching it? And yeah, you
• 1:15:01
  know, actually measuring kind of the
• 1:15:04
  catch against what we've said is allowed
• 1:15:06
  to be called is completely rely on who's
• 1:15:10
  being allocated it, where they're getting
• 1:15:11
  that fish, you know, where they're going
• 1:15:13
  and catching that tack.
• 1:15:14
  And, you know, and the trade of that. So
• 1:15:17
  when we start when I started doing a lot
• 1:15:19
  more policy evaluation for the
• 1:15:20
  commission, you know, a lot more of it
• 1:15:22
  was focused on on that side of it, the
• 1:15:24
  policy of, you know, of how do we
• 1:15:25
  implement this with the people rather
• 1:15:27
  than the fishery science, which was so
• 1:15:29
  often fed in kind of, you know,
• 1:15:32
  externally by ISIS, actually, in that in
• 1:15:34
  that in that case, right?
• 1:15:36
  It's an interesting matter, because like,
• 1:15:38
  I remember growing up here and listening
• 1:15:41
  to the news, I forget when it actually
• 1:15:43
  happened, but it must have been in the
• 1:15:44
  90s. And it was, you know, going back to
• 1:15:47
  cod, there was a news piece that was on
• 1:15:50
  how there are foreign fishing vessels
• 1:15:53
  fishing at our the border of our
• 1:15:56
  exclusive economic zone in Canada, and
• 1:15:59
  they're fishing for cod and it got to the
• 1:16:00
  point where we sent out, you know,
• 1:16:02
  Canada, the government of Canada sent out coast guard vessels.
• 1:16:06
  To intercept them and to basically chase
• 1:16:08
  them off and to arrest them if they were
• 1:16:10
  in our waters. And I think that was the
• 1:16:13
  first time where I was like, wow, so
• 1:16:16
  people are coming across like cross the
• 1:16:18
  Atlantic. These were European vessels
• 1:16:20
  across the Atlantic fishing for for for
• 1:16:25
  like for cod, and they're not allowed to
• 1:16:27
  and they're still doing it.
• 1:16:28
  And then you start to think about as I
• 1:16:30
  started to go through university, you
• 1:16:31
  hear more and more about illegal
• 1:16:32
  fisheries and how difficult it is to
• 1:16:35
  monitor how difficult it is to stop the
• 1:16:38
  illegal fisheries from happening. You
• 1:16:39
  can't be out on a vessel.
• 1:16:41
  Enforcement's difficult and I learned how
• 1:16:43
  more and more how complex it became. Can
• 1:16:47
  you talk about, we'll get into, let's get
• 1:16:50
  into the report a bit, but just the
• 1:16:52
  overall like the where the fishing vessel
• 1:16:56
  sort of research is at.
• 1:16:58
  To this point, can you give the audience
• 1:17:00
  a bit of an overview of the report and
• 1:17:05
  especially like just in the context of
• 1:17:06
  where we're at and understanding how
• 1:17:10
  fishing vessels are managed worldwide.
• 1:17:14
  Yeah. Yes. And as you said at the
• 1:17:17
  beginning, again, complexity of this is,
• 1:17:20
  is, is, is, is complexity
• 1:17:21
  runs through fisheries, right?
• 1:17:22
  Completely. And the same in when I talk
• 1:17:25
  about these fishing vessels, there's a
• 1:17:27
  divert whole diversity of fishing
• 1:17:28
  vessels, the gear they use, the size of
• 1:17:30
  them, how they operate.
• 1:17:32
  I say I tend to work on the largest of
• 1:17:34
  these fishing vessels, these distant
• 1:17:36
  water fishing vessels and and managing
• 1:17:39
  and understanding them is really
• 1:17:41
  difficult because by their nature,
• 1:17:42
  they're hard to govern.
• 1:17:44
  They operate really far distances from
• 1:17:46
  their home port. They may not even go
• 1:17:48
  back to their home port for many years at
• 1:17:50
  a time because they can they can
• 1:17:52
  transship they can offload their catch at
• 1:17:54
  sea to another vessel
• 1:17:56
  and continue fishing.
• 1:17:57
  They can be resupplied refueled. So
• 1:18:00
  they're away for long periods of time,
• 1:18:02
  often fishing in the high seas or in the
• 1:18:04
  waters of other of other of other
• 1:18:07
  countries and by their very nature,
• 1:18:09
  they're very transient.
• 1:18:10
  They can be following in the case of tuna
• 1:18:12
  stocks. They could be following these
• 1:18:13
  fish all around whole oceanic basins.
• 1:18:16
  And so that makes them really hard to
• 1:18:18
  observe, even harder to kind of control
• 1:18:20
  and understand. And technology, I know
• 1:18:23
  you've had colleagues from
• 1:18:25
  Global Fishing Watch recently.
• 1:18:27
  Technology is making a lot easier to
• 1:18:28
  understand that, to be able to observe
• 1:18:30
  those at sea activities. But, you know,
• 1:18:33
  still identifying wrongdoing is one
• 1:18:35
  thing, actually holding those people to
• 1:18:38
  account and actually making sure, you
• 1:18:40
  know, the punishments are kind of handed
• 1:18:43
  down and are appropriate and are large
• 1:18:46
  enough to prevent that activity happening
• 1:18:48
  again in the future.
• 1:18:49
  That's the difficult bit. That's the bit
• 1:18:51
  where technology is helping. But we
• 1:18:53
  really need better policy and better
• 1:18:56
  enforcement of these regulations.
• 1:18:59
  And to bring it to the report, the
• 1:19:01
  reason, you know, beneficial ownership
• 1:19:03
  comes into that is that often when these
• 1:19:05
  vessels are caught doing legal fishing,
• 1:19:07
  you know, if there is any punishment,
• 1:19:09
  it's usually the crew or the skipper, you
• 1:19:12
  know, those who actually have the least
• 1:19:13
  kind of power or maybe benefit from these
• 1:19:16
  situations, you know,
• 1:19:17
  from the fishing enterprise.
• 1:19:18
  They're some they're often ones that are
• 1:19:21
  punished while, you know, the owners or
• 1:19:23
  the managers kind of get away with it and
• 1:19:27
  that those crew can be
• 1:19:28
  quite easily replaced.
• 1:19:30
  You know, the wing is now a global sector
• 1:19:34
  where crew can be flown around from all
• 1:19:36
  shipped around from
• 1:19:37
  anywhere to replace these crew.
• 1:19:38
  Skippers can be easily replaced. The
• 1:19:40
  vessel can be renamed, re-flagged to
• 1:19:42
  another country. And it goes out the next
• 1:19:44
  week and continues fishing, you know.
• 1:19:46
  And I think that's the big issue here is
• 1:19:48
  these operations, especially these
• 1:19:51
  multi-jurisdictional international
• 1:19:53
  fishing vessels, they seem to be able to
• 1:19:56
  kind of get away with some of these
• 1:19:58
  these, you know, fishing, regular
• 1:20:02
  breaking fishing rules and regulations.
• 1:20:04
  Yeah. Yeah. So it's complicated. I hope
• 1:20:06
  that answered your question.
• 1:20:07
  You know, one thing I was thinking, as
• 1:20:10
  you were mentioning, I was thinking of
• 1:20:11
  like an analogy to that is, you know,
• 1:20:14
  when you it's almost like organized crime
• 1:20:15
  and sometimes in some
• 1:20:16
  cases, sometimes it is.
• 1:20:18
  Yeah. But it's almost like organized
• 1:20:20
  crime where they they quote unquote,
• 1:20:22
  employ, you know, children under the age
• 1:20:26
  of a certain age so that when they get
• 1:20:28
  caught doing the petty crimes that help,
• 1:20:31
  you know, fund these this organized
• 1:20:33
  crime, they get less punishment.
• 1:20:36
  They go to jail, but they get out, you
• 1:20:38
  know, a lot sooner because the punishment
• 1:20:39
  is less. And I think the same thing you
• 1:20:42
  can say, depending on where they get
• 1:20:43
  caught in terms of the fishing vessels,
• 1:20:46
  you know, the crew, the skipper, and
• 1:20:48
  sometimes the crew is not
• 1:20:50
  even supposed to be on that ship.
• 1:20:51
  They're, they're, they're what we call
• 1:20:52
  fishery slaves, but they get less of a
• 1:20:54
  punishment than what the owners should
• 1:20:57
  get. But because you can never really
• 1:20:59
  find the owners. It's difficult when you
• 1:21:01
  look at the paper trail of who owns what
• 1:21:03
  I covered a story a number of years ago on this project.
• 1:21:06
  And I remember this podcast, this has
• 1:21:07
  been running for about 10 years, this
• 1:21:08
  podcast, but I remember this story where
• 1:21:10
  we talked about a fishing vessel that was
• 1:21:12
  notorious for being reflagged, renamed
• 1:21:16
  and caught again and then reflagged,
• 1:21:18
  renamed and then, you know, just went
• 1:21:20
  around the world and
• 1:21:21
  people were trying to catch it.
• 1:21:23
  And when they did, they could not figure
• 1:21:25
  out who owned it. It was like, you know,
• 1:21:27
  it would be like bouncing. It was like
• 1:21:28
  one of those mission and possible style
• 1:21:30
  shows, but, but fishing related because
• 1:21:33
  it became that complex.
• 1:21:35
  And there was a lot, there were a lot of
• 1:21:36
  players that some were okay and some
• 1:21:40
  were, you know, illegal and part of
• 1:21:42
  organized crime. And it, and it just, it
• 1:21:44
  was like an untangled web and you just,
• 1:21:47
  you just sit there and you're like, how
• 1:21:48
  is this like where we've come to, you
• 1:21:52
  know, where it becomes even more complex
• 1:21:54
  to break down these, these webs and these
• 1:21:57
  chains of, you know, of who
• 1:22:00
  owns these fishing vessels.
• 1:22:02
  And then you look at sort of the
• 1:22:03
  infrastructure of how this is done and
• 1:22:05
  including this report, like just some of
• 1:22:07
  the highlights of this report, I'll just,
• 1:22:09
  I'll just kind of name like we, we, like
• 1:22:11
  the legal in ownership of fit of like
• 1:22:14
  information for our 62%
• 1:22:16
  of the vessels is missing.
• 1:22:18
  That's, that's over the majority. That's
• 1:22:20
  in. So one in six vessels are legally
• 1:22:22
  owned in a country different from their
• 1:22:24
  state flag. So we'll talk about that. And
• 1:22:26
  actually, let's talk about that now. What
• 1:22:28
  does that mean? So that, you know, you
• 1:22:30
  have a, you have a flag like the, that
• 1:22:31
  you fly on the ship, but then the owner
• 1:22:34
  could be in another country.
• 1:22:36
  How can they, how can they get away with
• 1:22:39
  putting a flag out from a different
• 1:22:41
  country if they're, if the owner and say
• 1:22:43
  the US or Canada or the
• 1:22:45
  UK or other countries?
• 1:22:47
  Yeah. I mean, yeah. Re-flagging a vessel
• 1:22:51
  is, is, is all legal and above board. You
• 1:22:55
  know, this has happened for, for decades.
• 1:22:58
  I think, I think initially from in the
• 1:22:59
  merchant Navy, you know, merchant
• 1:23:01
  shipping would, would, would use these
• 1:23:03
  flag reflagged maybe to be able to enter the ship.
• 1:23:05
  Yeah. And to port more easily, things
• 1:23:07
  like that. And so they get away with it
• 1:23:09
  because it's, it's, it's legal. The issue
• 1:23:11
  we have often is particularly with flags,
• 1:23:14
  flag States is that there's not always
• 1:23:16
  the same regulation or, or, or threshold
• 1:23:19
  for entry to be flagged to a nation. So
• 1:23:22
  if I had a boat and we had, we had a boat
• 1:23:25
  together and we wanted to get flagged in
• 1:23:26
  the US, that would be, that would be,
• 1:23:28
  there'd be a lot of, you know, legal
• 1:23:30
  thresholds for us to meet in order for us
• 1:23:32
  to be able to fly that flag.
• 1:23:35
  We also have at the, at the other end of
• 1:23:37
  the scale, what we call these open
• 1:23:38
  registries or flags of convenience. And
• 1:23:40
  this is where it can become a bit of an
• 1:23:42
  issue because the threshold for entry can
• 1:23:44
  be a lot lower. So you may not need any
• 1:23:46
  economic kind of tie to that country. You
• 1:23:49
  may not even have ever had
• 1:23:50
  to set foot in that country.
• 1:23:52
  No, but the register that you can
• 1:23:54
  register your vessel on is open. So
• 1:23:57
  you'll pay some kind of fee and then you
• 1:23:59
  can go in there and I can get the flag
• 1:24:01
  off Panama or Belize, for example. And
• 1:24:05
  that allows me then to fish under that
• 1:24:07
  States jurisdiction. That state is then
• 1:24:09
  legally in charge of all the regulatory
• 1:24:15
  and social conditions on,
• 1:24:18
  on, on my fishing vessel.
• 1:24:19
  And if they have much, much lower rules
• 1:24:21
  than say the US do, you might want to
• 1:24:24
  inspect my fishing vessel, ensure that
• 1:24:25
  working conditions are good for my crew.
• 1:24:28
  If the other flag where I've gone this
• 1:24:29
  flag of convenience don't have that, you
• 1:24:31
  know, it means that there's the
• 1:24:33
  opportunity for me to get away with not
• 1:24:35
  meeting those, those, you know, those,
• 1:24:37
  those regulatory kind of threshold.
• 1:24:39
  Threshold doesn't mean that everyone
• 1:24:40
  who's using the flag conveniences, you
• 1:24:42
  know, is is is is lowering their
• 1:24:45
  standards. It means that they're innate,
• 1:24:47
  they're allowed to it. It's an
• 1:24:49
  opportunity for them to to reduce
• 1:24:51
  standards for safety, for how they're
• 1:24:54
  fishing, for the control
• 1:24:55
  and monitoring of that vessel.
• 1:24:57
  Now, and with that, it says just 10
• 1:25:00
  countries legally own more than half of
• 1:25:03
  the fleet, which for which data is
• 1:25:07
  available. So what does that mean? Like
• 1:25:10
  looking at ownership concentration?
• 1:25:13
  Yeah, yeah, this is a, this is a really,
• 1:25:18
  I feel like this is increasing in the in
• 1:25:21
  the in the literature, this this issue
• 1:25:23
  because mainly because of the, you know,
• 1:25:26
  the the the state of fisheries at the
• 1:25:28
  moment, I think as well.
• 1:25:29
  And also just ocean economy broadly is
• 1:25:33
  massively expanding. So there's corporate
• 1:25:36
  interests in expanding into the ocean and
• 1:25:38
  investing into the ocean and get to get a
• 1:25:41
  return on investment.
• 1:25:42
  And so we kind of chatted before we
• 1:25:45
  filmed about this idea or people might
• 1:25:47
  have a vision of the fishing industry is
• 1:25:49
  these localized fishing vessels going out
• 1:25:52
  maybe for the day, really early in the
• 1:25:54
  morning, catching some fresh fish and
• 1:25:56
  bringing it back to market.
• 1:25:57
  And that certainly is the case for the
• 1:25:59
  majority actually of fishing boats around
• 1:26:01
  the world. But there's also this kind of
• 1:26:03
  part of the industry that is, that is in
• 1:26:06
  heavily financialized, heavily invested
• 1:26:08
  in, you know, in order to make profit.
• 1:26:11
  That's the main goal. It's not a pastime
• 1:26:14
  or, you know, a livelihood as such, you
• 1:26:17
  know, and this is these corporate actors
• 1:26:19
  that are coming in. And we see
• 1:26:21
  concentration of
• 1:26:23
  ownership for a few reasons.
• 1:26:24
  It might be due to the fact that, for
• 1:26:27
  example, when a fishery is overfished and
• 1:26:29
  there's less fish to catch, you know, and
• 1:26:31
  you've got 100 boats that may be a
• 1:26:32
  catching that stock if if their captures,
• 1:26:34
  you know, what they're allowed to capture
• 1:26:35
  is reducing because a
• 1:26:36
  fish stock is overfished.
• 1:26:38
  It becomes much more difficult for them
• 1:26:40
  to turn a profit. And so we often see,
• 1:26:42
  you know, people leaving the industry for
• 1:26:44
  that reason. And that's
• 1:26:45
  when you can get consolidation.
• 1:26:47
  You know, you can also get consolidation
• 1:26:49
  just when there's so much power starts
• 1:26:51
  being concentrated, they essentially have
• 1:26:53
  the money and the means to be able to buy
• 1:26:56
  out with the people
• 1:26:56
  from the fishing industry.
• 1:26:58
  And so, you know, consolidation isn't all
• 1:27:01
  this, as you get this concentration of
• 1:27:04
  ownership isn't inherently bad, but we
• 1:27:07
  need to be able to understand, you know,
• 1:27:09
  how bad it is in order for essentially
• 1:27:11
  the public to make a call like, do we
• 1:27:13
  want our fishing, our fish
• 1:27:15
  in the UK to be exploited?
• 1:27:16
  Do we want the UK to be exploited by a
• 1:27:17
  handful of corporations or do we want it
• 1:27:19
  to be spread out between more people?
• 1:27:21
  Yeah, I mean, that's really stopping
• 1:27:23
  them. And I mean, we've seen other
• 1:27:25
  corporations, you know, here in Canada,
• 1:27:27
  we see the telecommunications, you know,
• 1:27:30
  monopoly of like, you know, two or three
• 1:27:32
  companies who pretty much set the
• 1:27:33
  standard and don't allow other companies
• 1:27:35
  to come in because
• 1:27:36
  it's competition for them.
• 1:27:37
  They get involved in government, they get
• 1:27:39
  more power and stuff. And that happens
• 1:27:42
  across industries, including the fishing
• 1:27:44
  industry. They want to keep that that
• 1:27:46
  power. They want to keep that money to
• 1:27:47
  themselves. They don't
• 1:27:48
  want other players to come in.
• 1:27:49
  But then if if they make a decision that
• 1:27:52
  is not right for for, you know, the the
• 1:27:56
  ecosystem, you know, for that fishery,
• 1:27:58
  for whatever reason, whether it be more
• 1:28:00
  money, more power, that could really turn
• 1:28:03
  quickly, you know, as we've seen in other in other industries.
• 1:28:06
  So is that is that essentially the worry,
• 1:28:10
  the concern on or at
• 1:28:11
  least one of the concerns?
• 1:28:12
  Yeah, for sure. You know, that when you
• 1:28:14
  get these really dominant firms, this,
• 1:28:17
  you know, there is the ability for them
• 1:28:19
  to first exercise that market power.
• 1:28:21
  So they because they're earning such
• 1:28:24
  excess profits or can be an excess
• 1:28:26
  profits, it allows them to almost be able
• 1:28:29
  to set the price, potentially suppress
• 1:28:33
  wages or weaken livelihood opportunities
• 1:28:36
  for the fisher. Again, I'm not saying
• 1:28:37
  this is what happens.
• 1:28:38
  I'm just saying that is a theoretical.
• 1:28:40
  This is, you know, what we see in
• 1:28:42
  economic theory. The second thing is
• 1:28:45
  they're able to like shape the actual
• 1:28:47
  conditions of, you know, the food system
• 1:28:49
  itself. So they can be determined.
• 1:28:51
  You know, what types of, you know, how is
• 1:28:53
  this fish process? What is it because
• 1:28:55
  they because they have such control over
• 1:28:56
  the market, they can determine what are
• 1:28:58
  the products? What's the quality of that
• 1:29:00
  product that's being fed into the market?
• 1:29:02
  Because essentially, you know, end up can
• 1:29:04
  monopolize this, this market. And then
• 1:29:06
  the third one, as you alluded to that,
• 1:29:08
  that these dominant firms can kind of a
• 1:29:11
  concern on that is that excess political
• 1:29:14
  power, that ability to not only shape the
• 1:29:18
  economics or the or the or the physical power.
• 1:29:21
  And that's the physical reality of these
• 1:29:21
  food system, food systems, but also the
• 1:29:24
  policies. Now, if you have that much
• 1:29:26
  power, and as you said, in other systems,
• 1:29:30
  you know, we see this a lot, probably a
• 1:29:32
  little less in fisheries, but it
• 1:29:33
  definitely happens, right?
• 1:29:34
  Like, we definitely know that there are
• 1:29:36
  there are lobbying. I mean, you know, and
• 1:29:38
  so so that's the part of the issue is
• 1:29:40
  that is the distribution of power, you
• 1:29:43
  know, and that can result as a
• 1:29:45
  concentration of that
• 1:29:46
  access or or ownership.
• 1:29:49
  Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Really
• 1:29:51
  interesting. Let's talk about registries
• 1:29:55
  here. The one of the highlights that
• 1:29:58
  really stood out to me, Panama believes
• 1:30:00
  Honduras top the list of flagging vessels
• 1:30:02
  legally owned by foreign corporations.
• 1:30:05
  Why these countries? Is it just because
• 1:30:07
  of the standards that they have? Maybe
• 1:30:09
  it's easier to own vessels in that
• 1:30:11
  country with that flag, as you mentioned
• 1:30:12
  earlier, in terms of like, maybe they can
• 1:30:15
  get away with a little bit more, they
• 1:30:17
  have a little bit more flexibility than
• 1:30:18
  than other countries.
• 1:30:20
  Yeah, I mean, these particularly Panama,
• 1:30:23
  this is, you know, I guess a political
• 1:30:25
  decision to be a flag that allows other,
• 1:30:32
  you know, organizations, companies from
• 1:30:34
  different countries to flag to them, you
• 1:30:36
  know, it brings in it can bring in quite
• 1:30:38
  a lot of foreign currency, which can be a
• 1:30:41
  really good thing to help, you know,
• 1:30:42
  develop the country.
• 1:30:43
  Obviously, Panama is intrinsically linked
• 1:30:46
  to fishing, right? Right. The Panama
• 1:30:48
  Canal. So of course, a lot of this is
• 1:30:51
  kind of historical as well and and stuff.
• 1:30:53
  But but yeah, that the openness of the
• 1:30:56
  ability to have an open or the presence
• 1:30:59
  of that open registry leads them to be to
• 1:31:02
  be, you know, the key flag state.
• 1:31:04
  So Panama, Belize, 100 Liberia as well,
• 1:31:08
  for example, they're big flag states in
• 1:31:11
  merchant shipping as well. Fishing
• 1:31:14
  obviously is kind of just followed suit.
• 1:31:16
  So of course, I don't think it's
• 1:31:17
  necessarily and cruise ships as well,
• 1:31:19
  actually, in the case of
• 1:31:20
  I think Panama and Belize.
• 1:31:22
  And so it's that it's that the threshold
• 1:31:25
  to entry is much lower. And so, you know,
• 1:31:27
  and also it can be some of these flag
• 1:31:30
  states can offer kind of more different
• 1:31:33
  incentives. So some of them may be lower
• 1:31:35
  registration fees, some
• 1:31:36
  of them may be anonymity.
• 1:31:38
  Right. So in Panama, we all probably
• 1:31:40
  heard about the Panama papers that
• 1:31:42
  released in certainly hit the UK very in
• 1:31:45
  the news very heavily.
• 1:31:47
  So that level of anonymity, anonymity can
• 1:31:50
  also be quite attractive to to
• 1:31:52
  corporations. And then, as you said, that
• 1:31:55
  potentially lower regulations in terms
• 1:31:57
  of, you know, crewing regulations or
• 1:32:01
  working conditions or maybe even the
• 1:32:03
  monitoring of what they're doing at sea.
• 1:32:06
  Yeah. So can you just go into a little
• 1:32:08
  bit more detail of that, that news that
• 1:32:10
  came out that hit that had written a
• 1:32:11
  little bit with the
• 1:32:12
  anonymity and anonymity?
• 1:32:14
  Yes, so I don't I don't I'm not across
• 1:32:17
  the story completely, but the Panama
• 1:32:19
  Papers was essentially a leak of I think
• 1:32:23
  thousands of kind of registered
• 1:32:26
  corporations and people that had
• 1:32:28
  registered accounts in
• 1:32:30
  the Panama in Panama.
• 1:32:32
  And it kind of showed like who they were,
• 1:32:34
  what what income they were getting. And,
• 1:32:36
  you know, there was quite a few, if I
• 1:32:39
  remember at the time, politically, you
• 1:32:42
  know, involved people were
• 1:32:43
  on this list. Right. Right.
• 1:32:45
  It was it was basically a big a big leak
• 1:32:47
  on and that led to a lot of these
• 1:32:49
  discussions, particularly on beneficial
• 1:32:51
  ownership in fact, in Europe of, you
• 1:32:54
  know, especially if you're a politician,
• 1:32:56
  but but for, you know, these people is is
• 1:32:59
  what do you own where in
• 1:33:00
  the world, you know, because
• 1:33:01
  part of this of knowing these owners is
• 1:33:05
  is also from a government perspective,
• 1:33:07
  being able to levy them and tax them
• 1:33:09
  appropriately because, you know, that's
• 1:33:11
  an issue, particularly in the EU is if
• 1:33:14
  you don't know what what investments and
• 1:33:17
  interests they own, it becomes very
• 1:33:19
  difficult to know, you know, what's a
• 1:33:21
  fair taxation for these for these people.
• 1:33:24
  Yeah. And where are those? Where's
• 1:33:25
  where's where's where is their money
• 1:33:27
  being invested elsewhere in the world?
• 1:33:29
  Yeah. And then is it, you know, on the up
• 1:33:32
  and up to, you know, if that money is
• 1:33:34
  being invested is where it's going. Yeah.
• 1:33:36
  Transparency is such a big key that gets
• 1:33:38
  lost in a lot of these things. We talk
• 1:33:41
  about, you know, concentrations and what
• 1:33:44
  countries hold a lot of the flag
• 1:33:46
  ownership and so forth.
• 1:33:47
  We look at impacts on those states, on
• 1:33:50
  those coastal states and how, you know,
• 1:33:54
  this type of work impacts those. So like,
• 1:33:58
  for instance, like, how does a opaque
• 1:33:59
  ownership, like reduce revenue and
• 1:34:03
  enforcement capacity for
• 1:34:04
  some of these coastal nations?
• 1:34:07
  Yeah, so for the coastal nations, as we
• 1:34:09
  talked about before, you know, a big part
• 1:34:12
  of it for enforcement is knowing who is
• 1:34:14
  accountable for that for that vessel.
• 1:34:16
  As I said, you know, you might you might
• 1:34:18
  you might find a vessel doing some
• 1:34:19
  illegal fishing and you can stop it. And,
• 1:34:22
  you know, at that point, all you have is
• 1:34:23
  the crew and the people on the boat. And
• 1:34:26
  that's not always sufficient to prevent
• 1:34:28
  that boat from being able
• 1:34:29
  to continue in the future.
• 1:34:31
  Yeah. And then I mean, one of the other
• 1:34:34
  issues is, you know, if I'm a coastal
• 1:34:36
  state and vessels are coming to fish in
• 1:34:39
  my water or wanting to flag to that, not
• 1:34:42
  knowing who they are means I don't really
• 1:34:44
  know the background of them.
• 1:34:45
  I don't know what other fisheries they're
• 1:34:48
  involved with, they've had, you know,
• 1:34:50
  broken the rules elsewhere, whether this
• 1:34:52
  vessel that's coming to fish here now has
• 1:34:54
  fished in, you know, all these other
• 1:34:56
  coastal states and maybe
• 1:34:57
  has been kicked out of them.
• 1:34:58
  You know, I don't know that if I don't
• 1:35:00
  know who the owner is and what are the
• 1:35:02
  interests that they're connected to. And
• 1:35:06
  I think that's the big, a big part of it
• 1:35:07
  as well is knowing who they are because,
• 1:35:10
  you know, and the risks involved, you
• 1:35:13
  know, it's hard to do a full risk
• 1:35:15
  assessment if I don't know who the
• 1:35:17
  companies and the people are
• 1:35:19
  behind this fishing vessel.
• 1:35:21
  Do you have like a specific, like real
• 1:35:23
  world example of something that's
• 1:35:26
  happened, you know, where like the, you
• 1:35:29
  know, these coastal nations kind of paid
• 1:35:30
  the price or, you know, or we're starting
• 1:35:32
  to see this type of action
• 1:35:34
  happening in a coastal nation?
• 1:35:36
  And not off the top of my head, but I
• 1:35:40
  will give a good example of I think the
• 1:35:44
  difficulties that not just coastal
• 1:35:46
  states, but anyone involved in fisheries
• 1:35:49
  enforcement have is this example of a
• 1:35:51
  policy brief that I collaborated with my
• 1:35:54
  colleagues in Oceania, Europe with, I
• 1:35:56
  think it was about six months ago, about
• 1:35:58
  this, this series of vessels all owned by
• 1:36:00
  one company, they're all
• 1:36:01
  named after different whales.
• 1:36:02
  It was like, you know, the fin whale, the
• 1:36:04
  second right whale. I can't remember,
• 1:36:07
  there's about six of these vessels and we
• 1:36:09
  kind of did all this analysis looking at
• 1:36:11
  where they'd been fishing.
• 1:36:12
  Many of them have been caught illegally
• 1:36:14
  fishing in the past. And we looked at
• 1:36:17
  their history of ownership and flagging
• 1:36:20
  and where they'd been fishing.
• 1:36:21
  You know, ownership had changed between
• 1:36:23
  different EU member states to Russia back
• 1:36:26
  to EU member states and where they were
• 1:36:28
  flagged to, you know, have no connection
• 1:36:31
  to who owned them or
• 1:36:32
  where they were fishing.
• 1:36:33
  And we wrote this report kind of saying,
• 1:36:36
  you know, there's some kind of link to
• 1:36:37
  eat an EU member state here. This is
• 1:36:39
  worrying. And by the time we gave, I
• 1:36:41
  think we gave the company notice, you
• 1:36:43
  know, just to make sure we're writing
• 1:36:45
  about this company,
• 1:36:45
  they should have notice.
• 1:36:46
  About a week later, when we actually
• 1:36:48
  launched the report the day before all
• 1:36:50
  these vessels were reflagged. And so the
• 1:36:53
  report was instantly out of date. And
• 1:36:55
  that just shows you how how
• 1:36:56
  quickly these vessels can move.
• 1:36:58
  You know, you think you've got them
• 1:37:00
  pinned and then suddenly they're
• 1:37:02
  reflagged somewhere else. And so if
• 1:37:03
  you're working with the flag state where
• 1:37:05
  they are now trying to, you know, get
• 1:37:08
  them hold them to account for some of
• 1:37:11
  their previous actions.
• 1:37:12
  You know, suddenly they're based on the
• 1:37:13
  other side of the world. By the time
• 1:37:15
  you're actually trying to get some
• 1:37:16
  movement. So, you know, the speed at
• 1:37:18
  which this happens is
• 1:37:20
  is quite surprising.
• 1:37:22
  These vessels can almost disappear like a
• 1:37:25
  magic trick reappear.
• 1:37:27
  That's fascinating in a way, you got to
• 1:37:31
  give them their respect in terms of how
• 1:37:34
  quickly they can maneuver. They've
• 1:37:36
  obviously seen this happen before and
• 1:37:38
  they've been able to overcome it.
• 1:37:41
  How do we like, you know, as people who
• 1:37:42
  want to manage fisheries better, how do
• 1:37:45
  we prevent this from happening?
• 1:37:47
  Like what's what's the mechanism that we
• 1:37:49
  as people who, you know, scientists and
• 1:37:51
  conservationists and people all around
• 1:37:53
  the world, like it doesn't matter what
• 1:37:54
  country you live in.
• 1:37:55
  Like you can't we can't let this happen.
• 1:37:57
  How does this how do we stop
• 1:37:59
  this this type of behavior?
• 1:38:02
  Yeah, yeah, I mean, right.
• 1:38:06
  Yeah, I know. If I knew, I mean, I'd be
• 1:38:09
  out of work tomorrow if we answered it.
• 1:38:11
  But I think it's again,
• 1:38:15
  it's incredibly complex, right?
• 1:38:17
  I think there's multiple parts at which
• 1:38:19
  we need better policies, better
• 1:38:22
  regulations and better implementation of
• 1:38:24
  them. So, you know, at the flag state
• 1:38:26
  level, when a vessel is being flagged to
• 1:38:30
  your country, you know, to your flag to
• 1:38:31
  fly your flag is to ensure that you're
• 1:38:33
  collecting that information.
• 1:38:35
  Yeah, okay, I want to know the beneficial
• 1:38:37
  owners. That's the the individual human
• 1:38:39
  at the top of that ownership change,
• 1:38:40
  because we haven't even talked about
• 1:38:42
  that, actually, the fact that you're not
• 1:38:43
  just one company and a person, there can
• 1:38:45
  be a network of shell companies.
• 1:38:48
  So, so, so, so, so at the flag state
• 1:38:50
  level, it's that it's okay, you want to
• 1:38:52
  flag to my I need to know who are the
• 1:38:53
  people behind this show me, you know, I
• 1:38:56
  need to know all that kind of ownership
• 1:38:58
  chain behind you before you can even be
• 1:39:00
  registered, you know,
• 1:39:02
  then ideally that these flag states
• 1:39:05
  automate that information public or to
• 1:39:07
  the extent that they're able to. And then
• 1:39:10
  there's the coastal states, that's where
• 1:39:12
  these vessels then go fishing. And again,
• 1:39:14
  that's another opportunity to say, you
• 1:39:16
  know, you have license to now come and
• 1:39:18
  fish our waters and take our some of our
• 1:39:20
  fish to do that, you know, here's some
• 1:39:23
  thresholds you have to meet some
• 1:39:24
  standards you have to meet.
• 1:39:25
  Yeah, and again, one of those could be,
• 1:39:27
  you know, we want to know the history of
• 1:39:29
  your fishing, where you fished for the
• 1:39:31
  last six months, for say,
• 1:39:33
  like some some VMS tracking data.
• 1:39:35
  Yeah, and as well, yeah, who, who are
• 1:39:38
  your owners and what other vessels today
• 1:39:40
  own what, what the risks involved of us
• 1:39:42
  allowing your vessel to come in, enter
• 1:39:44
  our waters and take our
• 1:39:45
  publicly owned resource.
• 1:39:47
  Yeah, so so there's there as well. And
• 1:39:49
  then there's also the market state. So
• 1:39:51
  once that fish is kind of is, you know,
• 1:39:53
  ultimately that fish is worthless until
• 1:39:55
  it comes to land until
• 1:39:57
  it's landed and actually sold.
• 1:39:59
  And so through the port state, that's
• 1:40:01
  where they had landed the fish and then
• 1:40:02
  the market state where that fish is
• 1:40:03
  eventually sold for consumption. You
• 1:40:06
  know, you can you can bring in
• 1:40:07
  regulations there like trying to trace
• 1:40:09
  that fish like, can you show me who
• 1:40:11
  caught it and, you know,
• 1:40:13
  and that ownership chain.
• 1:40:14
  Yeah. So there's many places and again,
• 1:40:17
  this is why makes it hard because of
• 1:40:19
  course, if any of those places, there's a
• 1:40:21
  weak link, you know,
• 1:40:23
  it's all your forefather.
• 1:40:24
  Yeah. And of course, everybody's gonna go
• 1:40:26
  and get their ship flagged in that in
• 1:40:28
  that state because that's where it's
• 1:40:31
  easier. It's you know, it's very similar
• 1:40:33
  to, you know, when we look at fisheries,
• 1:40:35
  the actual fisheries and the
• 1:40:36
  supply chain of those fisheries.
• 1:40:37
  I think the Marine Stewardship Council
• 1:40:39
  has been pretty adamant about tracking
• 1:40:41
  where from the point of catch all the way
• 1:40:44
  to the point of sale of how like let's
• 1:40:48
  let's track who's involved
• 1:40:49
  in that that supply chain.
• 1:40:51
  So it makes it more transparent. You can
• 1:40:53
  tell, you know, which fish is there. You
• 1:40:54
  can decrease, you know, the the I guess
• 1:40:59
  the number of times there's
• 1:41:01
  fraud like fisheries fraud.
• 1:41:02
  I saw this Oceana reports a number of
• 1:41:04
  years ago highlighted where I think in
• 1:41:06
  some cases in Toronto is like like 48% of
• 1:41:10
  the fish were like fraud fraudulent
• 1:41:12
  depending on the fish and which is scary.
• 1:41:14
  Like you if you try to buy something
• 1:41:17
  that's sustainable, but it's not the fish
• 1:41:19
  that you think you're buying, which is an
• 1:41:21
  unsustainable caught fish.
• 1:41:22
  You know, you're you're you just
• 1:41:24
  unknowingly, you know, participate in
• 1:41:26
  this kind of action. It's almost like we
• 1:41:28
  need the same thing for the ownership of
• 1:41:31
  the vessels, you know, like just making
• 1:41:33
  sure that we can track and like take away
• 1:41:36
  these shell companies
• 1:41:37
  and it's like owner.
• 1:41:39
  All right, here's the owner. This is the
• 1:41:41
  vessel that they own. Here's where they
• 1:41:43
  have all their flag vessels and do they
• 1:41:45
  have a good report in one country
• 1:41:47
  compared to another country? And if they
• 1:41:50
  don't, maybe they should pay for that by
• 1:41:51
  not being able to flag a vessel in
• 1:41:55
  another country and they're just able to
• 1:41:57
  flag, you know, in one or two, one or two
• 1:42:00
  countries and be monitored specifically
• 1:42:02
  for for that action.
• 1:42:03
  I think that's you know, is that like, I
• 1:42:06
  mean, I feel like that's a fair and
• 1:42:08
  transparent way of of tracking these
• 1:42:10
  vessels doesn't have to be available to
• 1:42:12
  the public, but to some of these
• 1:42:13
  organizations, like maybe Oceana or
• 1:42:15
  somebody like that, where they can
• 1:42:17
  actually track these this type of of I
• 1:42:20
  guess business chain, you
• 1:42:22
  know, who owns these vessels.
• 1:42:24
  Yeah, I mean, that's the goal. Yeah.
• 1:42:28
  We campaign Oceana and many of our NGO
• 1:42:31
  colleagues for publicly disclosed
• 1:42:34
  ownership databases that that is that is
• 1:42:37
  that that is what we want. That is our
• 1:42:38
  gold standard to have beneficial
• 1:42:40
  ownership of EU flag vessels at minimum
• 1:42:42
  in the EU to be publicly available.
• 1:42:46
  Then for these member states to make
• 1:42:47
  their citizens and the companies
• 1:42:49
  registered there to also disclose what
• 1:42:52
  what financial interests or other
• 1:42:55
  interests they have in in other countries
• 1:42:57
  and for that to be publicly disclosed.
• 1:43:00
  But we know that some countries do
• 1:43:02
  collect this information, but maybe don't
• 1:43:03
  share it. We also know that in some
• 1:43:05
  countries, you know, different government
• 1:43:08
  departments might collect this
• 1:43:09
  information and don't then share it with
• 1:43:12
  the fisheries ministry or
• 1:43:13
  the fisheries authorities.
• 1:43:15
  So there's an issue of the data either
• 1:43:18
  not existing when it does exist as an
• 1:43:21
  issue of it not being shared properly.
• 1:43:23
  And then we have this issue of the data
• 1:43:24
  not aligning. So, you know, the the
• 1:43:27
  definition of a beneficial
• 1:43:28
  owner or how we identify it.
• 1:43:30
  Identify that ownership doesn't match up.
• 1:43:32
  So, you know, this makes it really
• 1:43:35
  difficult for for outsiders, as it were,
• 1:43:38
  like myself who want access this to
• 1:43:40
  understand that better to try and
• 1:43:42
  communicate that to the public.
• 1:43:44
  You know, often we we pay all the
• 1:43:47
  organizations who collect this
• 1:43:48
  information. So even the information used
• 1:43:51
  in this report isn't technically public
• 1:43:53
  information because it's behind the
• 1:43:55
  paywall. Right. So and
• 1:43:57
  it's not a small pay.
• 1:43:59
  You know, it's not significant. So it's
• 1:44:01
  not available to the majority of people.
• 1:44:03
  Majority of people in a country can't
• 1:44:05
  find out who the owners of these fishing
• 1:44:06
  vessels are that are fishing this
• 1:44:08
  publicly owned resource.
• 1:44:11
  And again, this doesn't say there aren't
• 1:44:12
  great examples of where we're seeing
• 1:44:15
  improvement. You know, obviously I tend
• 1:44:18
  to focus on the worst examples because
• 1:44:20
  that's why we're trying to
• 1:44:21
  get the most improvement, right?
• 1:44:23
  Right. Of course. Yeah. If you can get
• 1:44:24
  the improvement for that, then you're
• 1:44:25
  already increasing the level of
• 1:44:27
  efficiency and protection. You know, this
• 1:44:29
  is a big report. It's an
• 1:44:31
  important report for my audience.
• 1:44:34
  Like what were the big like policy
• 1:44:36
  recommendations in this report and policy
• 1:44:40
  brief? Yeah. So the main one is as I was
• 1:44:44
  alluding to earlier about how do we try
• 1:44:45
  and fix this is for flag states to a
• 1:44:49
  collect beneficial ownership information.
• 1:44:53
  Or at least, you know, this report we
• 1:44:55
  focused on what we call the legal owners,
• 1:44:57
  which is the corporations, the beneficial
• 1:44:59
  owners are the usually the shareholders
• 1:45:01
  that the humans at the top of that chain.
• 1:45:04
  So it's for flag states to collect that
• 1:45:06
  information, you know, when they license
• 1:45:09
  a vessel or when they renew a license and
• 1:45:11
  to ensure that
• 1:45:12
  information is kept up to date.
• 1:45:13
  As we said earlier, this this can change
• 1:45:15
  so quickly. Right. So for flag states to
• 1:45:18
  collect that and ideally
• 1:45:19
  make that publicly available.
• 1:45:22
  And for the companies themselves to
• 1:45:26
  disclose to their their their their
• 1:45:30
  states of incorporation. So that's where
• 1:45:32
  those companies are based.
• 1:45:34
  Those countries should be asking their
• 1:45:36
  companies to tell them, like, what do you
• 1:45:38
  own? You know, what what investments do
• 1:45:40
  you have around the world? Because it'd
• 1:45:42
  be good to know that.
• 1:45:43
  We have to know if you know if we have a
• 1:45:46
  citizen that's invested in fishing off of
• 1:45:48
  Namibia or in the Pacific, you know,
• 1:45:51
  Pacific Islands. Right.
• 1:45:52
  And I think as well, one of the big
• 1:45:55
  recommendations is just for there to be a
• 1:45:58
  lot more effort in kind of sharing
• 1:46:02
  information, understanding these systems.
• 1:46:04
  You know, what do we know? What are you
• 1:46:06
  doing in your authorities and your
• 1:46:07
  enforcement agencies? Can you share that
• 1:46:10
  with other enforcement agencies so that
• 1:46:11
  we sort of everybody's
• 1:46:13
  brought up to that standard?
• 1:46:14
  Because we know the EU have one of the
• 1:46:17
  most sophisticated systems for trying to
• 1:46:21
  stop you in the world and still, you
• 1:46:24
  know, they have to get it right 100
• 1:46:25
  percent of the time.
• 1:46:26
  The EU fishes only have to get it right
• 1:46:27
  once. Right. Right. Right. Can they kind
• 1:46:30
  of share this knowledge and training with
• 1:46:32
  with other coastal states to try and
• 1:46:34
  improve the overall system?
• 1:46:38
  And then the final thing we kind of in
• 1:46:41
  the report we suggested was around
• 1:46:43
  ensuring that all large scale fishing
• 1:46:47
  vessels have a unique identifying number.
• 1:46:50
  So ideally, an IMO number. This is the
• 1:46:53
  International Maritime Organization. And
• 1:46:55
  and this is a number that's unique to a
• 1:46:58
  fishing vessel, regardless of they
• 1:47:00
  repaint it, rename it, reflag
• 1:47:02
  it or the ownership changes.
• 1:47:04
  It stays with that that fishing vessel in
• 1:47:08
  the in the US and Canada and the UK are
• 1:47:10
  the only place I've had cars. You know,
• 1:47:13
  we have a VIN, right,
• 1:47:14
  vehicle identification.
• 1:47:16
  And it's like hammered into the chassis
• 1:47:18
  of your car. So it'd be similar to that.
• 1:47:20
  So regardless of what modifications and
• 1:47:22
  what happens that boat, that boat is
• 1:47:24
  identifiable throughout its lifetime.
• 1:47:26
  And then connected to that in the IMO in
• 1:47:28
  the IMO registry, you know, I think we
• 1:47:31
  believe they should be then asking for
• 1:47:33
  ownership information.
• 1:47:34
  And of course, just with a car when you
• 1:47:37
  know that VIN exchanges the pink slips,
• 1:47:40
  you know, the ownership, you have to
• 1:47:42
  report that, right? You just can't buy a
• 1:47:44
  car and go driving it the next day. No.
• 1:47:46
  But you can buy a fishing vessel and
• 1:47:47
  start going, you know, fishing the next
• 1:47:50
  day. Unreal. It's a little bit more
• 1:47:51
  complicated than that. But simply that's
• 1:47:53
  the way is like identify these fishing
• 1:47:55
  vessels and have that
• 1:47:56
  linked to ownership.
• 1:47:58
  Absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's
• 1:48:00
  yeah, that's that makes sense to me. All
• 1:48:03
  of these. This makes sense to me,
• 1:48:04
  obviously, not as easy to
• 1:48:07
  implement as we we hope.
• 1:48:09
  But hopefully we can get there with the
• 1:48:11
  added pressure of, you know, reports like
• 1:48:13
  these to say, hey, you know, this is
• 1:48:15
  what's happening. You guys, we all need
• 1:48:17
  to know about this. And we need to start
• 1:48:19
  putting pressure on on people.
• 1:48:21
  As a researcher, I'm curious, what was
• 1:48:24
  the most surprising reveal that you have
• 1:48:27
  come across when, you know, creating a
• 1:48:31
  report like this or
• 1:48:31
  contributing to a report like this?
• 1:48:33
  Like for you, out of all of these items
• 1:48:36
  that we discussed, what was the most
• 1:48:38
  surprising for that for you,
• 1:48:40
  like the that you uncovered?
• 1:48:43
  Yeah, that's a really
• 1:48:44
  good question, actually.
• 1:48:45
  I think some of the surprises I thought
• 1:48:52
  might happen, the surprise was maybe the
• 1:48:54
  scale. So in terms of data gaps, you
• 1:48:57
  know, we knew that
• 1:48:58
  we're going to be data gaps.
• 1:48:59
  Yeah, data was going to be patchy and
• 1:49:01
  imperfect. I didn't know that would be
• 1:49:03
  this level, you know, some of these
• 1:49:04
  vessels that we were trying to identify
• 1:49:06
  in the in the IMO registry didn't even
• 1:49:09
  have like information
• 1:49:10
  like the length of it.
• 1:49:12
  You know, which like surely is quite a
• 1:49:14
  standard piece of information. How big is
• 1:49:16
  this boat was not available for all these
• 1:49:18
  vessels and obviously the ownership
• 1:49:21
  information being being missing for two
• 1:49:23
  thirds of the fishing
• 1:49:25
  fleet was quite surprising.
• 1:49:27
  And there was a few, I think, surprises
• 1:49:30
  that, you know, and of course, I work on
• 1:49:34
  in session on global fisheries, but I,
• 1:49:36
  you know, I can't have a knowledge of all
• 1:49:37
  these different coastal states.
• 1:49:40
  And there was a few surprises like
• 1:49:41
  Argentina popping up as like having quite
• 1:49:44
  high proportions of foreign
• 1:49:45
  ownership of its fishing fleet.
• 1:49:47
  And I assume I think that that would be
• 1:49:49
  kind of a historical, you know, there was
• 1:49:52
  a lot of Spanish
• 1:49:52
  ownership, for example, there.
• 1:49:54
  And I'm probably also access to some of
• 1:49:57
  the fish stocks that are in that part of
• 1:49:58
  the world for particular
• 1:50:00
  companies and fishing fleets.
• 1:50:02
  So there was a few surprises like that
• 1:50:04
  that popped up and there was a few
• 1:50:06
  individual cases. I quite liked looking
• 1:50:08
  at individual vessels.
• 1:50:10
  You know, of course, I love
• 1:50:11
  this high level information.
• 1:50:14
  But it says individual little stories of
• 1:50:16
  like a vessel that's like registered
• 1:50:18
  here, flagged their fishing here.
• 1:50:21
  And we did an EU specific policy brief
• 1:50:24
  that that went into a bit more detail on
• 1:50:26
  these individual vessels.
• 1:50:27
  We kind of made passports for them and
• 1:50:29
  had all these stamps of where they'd
• 1:50:31
  where they'd gone and fish
• 1:50:33
  and how the ownership changed.
• 1:50:34
  So I think they're the ones I find maybe
• 1:50:37
  the most surprising is, you know, you're
• 1:50:40
  finding links between, as I said, Europe,
• 1:50:43
  Russia and the US and West Africa.
• 1:50:45
  And it's just how does that happen? Like
• 1:50:48
  how how these humans involved that have
• 1:50:51
  these investments and
• 1:50:52
  connections in all these places?
• 1:50:54
  And, you know, we're just looking this
• 1:50:57
  data, this kind of paper trail.
• 1:51:00
  But obviously, these are all, you know,
• 1:51:02
  deals or purchases and
• 1:51:05
  exchanges that happened.
• 1:51:06
  And yeah, I think I think they're the
• 1:51:08
  ones that kind of surprised me the most
• 1:51:09
  with those individual little stories that
• 1:51:11
  I'd love to know more about.
• 1:51:12
  Yeah, absolutely. Here's an interesting
• 1:51:14
  idea. You know, they how they have like,
• 1:51:17
  you know, you can you can track animals
• 1:51:19
  that are tagged, you know, like fish or
• 1:51:20
  sharks or whale sharks
• 1:51:22
  and so forth on an app.
• 1:51:24
  Imagine if you could track fishing
• 1:51:25
  vessels, like individual fishing vessels
• 1:51:27
  and it'd be like, oh, how are they all
• 1:51:29
  the way in the Indian Ocean when they
• 1:51:30
  started off in the Pacific or, you know,
• 1:51:32
  be able to see and almost like it's it's
• 1:51:34
  almost like highlighting them in a
• 1:51:35
  surprising way, but a more transparent
• 1:51:37
  way where people can actually see where
• 1:51:38
  these fishing vessels go and where they unload and think they're going to be able to see where they're going.
• 1:51:42
  So, yeah, I think, you know, if you could just take a look at the
• 1:51:42
  show and see what you can do, you know, if you can just talk about what you have, you know, a lot of things like that. That
• 1:51:42
  would be, I feel like an interesting app
• 1:51:44
  that might highlight some of the
• 1:51:46
  nefarious ongoings of some of these
• 1:51:48
  vessels and what they're up to.
• 1:51:50
  And they probably wouldn't like that app
• 1:51:52
  very much, but I think that would be
• 1:51:54
  interesting for organizations such as
• 1:51:56
  Oceana and even individuals like me just
• 1:51:58
  to be able to like, oh, this is weird,
• 1:52:00
  like I'm trying individual vessel.
• 1:52:10
  of fish and watch. Increasingly, we can
• 1:52:12
  we can map more vessels
• 1:52:13
  still, still by no means
• 1:52:15
  all of these vessels. And as there's
• 1:52:17
  really cool research time
• 1:52:18
  to look at that now, like
• 1:52:20
  the behaviors of them. And, you know, one
• 1:52:22
  of my colleagues,
• 1:52:24
  Keiko Nomura looked at how
• 1:52:26
  different fleets interact or potentially
• 1:52:28
  avoid each other. You
• 1:52:30
  know, there can be kind of
• 1:52:31
  this, especially for tuna stocks, you
• 1:52:34
  know, there can be a
• 1:52:34
  collaboration once you find
• 1:52:36
  the schools between different fleets.
• 1:52:38
  Maybe they have the
• 1:52:39
  same owners, we don't know.
• 1:52:41
  And then others would fish in completely
• 1:52:42
  different areas, like
• 1:52:43
  almost like this avoidance. And
• 1:52:46
  similarly, with with fishing in the high
• 1:52:47
  seas and these different
• 1:52:48
  systems that are out there,
• 1:52:51
  you know, we're learning more and more
• 1:52:52
  that the high seas isn't
• 1:52:53
  just this, you know, blank
• 1:52:55
  homogenous desert, but has these kind of
• 1:52:57
  networks of systems and underwater
• 1:53:01
  mountains and seeing
• 1:53:03
  how these different vessels, you know,
• 1:53:04
  time it so they all arrive at the same
• 1:53:06
  time. Yeah, I think
• 1:53:08
  this is a really exciting,
• 1:53:11
  you know, area of research at the moment.
• 1:53:14
  Yeah, absolutely. This is this has been
• 1:53:17
  wonderful. My last question that I give
• 1:53:21
  people when I interview, especially on
• 1:53:23
  things like reports like these, my
• 1:53:26
  audience is very
• 1:53:27
  motivated to help, you know, they
• 1:53:30
  want to help, sometimes they feel a
• 1:53:32
  little bit out of touch in terms of how
• 1:53:34
  they can help. This is
• 1:53:35
  a big deal. This is a
• 1:53:37
  huge, huge undertaking that that you and
• 1:53:40
  your colleagues have have done. How can
• 1:53:44
  individuals help when they listen to this
• 1:53:46
  podcast, or probably like, man, this
• 1:53:47
  sucks, like all this stuff is happening.
• 1:53:49
  There's a lot of
• 1:53:50
  problems, you know, there
• 1:53:50
  are people who are working on it, but
• 1:53:52
  it's like they feel a little helpless,
• 1:53:55
  you know, and they
• 1:53:56
  want it, they want to do
• 1:53:57
  more. So from an individual standpoint,
• 1:54:00
  how would you recommend people what what
• 1:54:02
  actions people can take
• 1:54:04
  to to help in this area?
• 1:54:07
  Yeah, it's a great question. And, you
• 1:54:09
  know, I asked myself a lot as well, even
• 1:54:12
  just about, you know, what
• 1:54:13
  can I do more than, you know,
• 1:54:14
  sometimes publishing a report can feel
• 1:54:16
  great, but what more can I do? And I
• 1:54:19
  think if there's a campaign, you know,
• 1:54:21
  especially if you're in a
• 1:54:22
  country that, you know, is a flag of
• 1:54:24
  convenience or has a huge fishing
• 1:54:26
  industry, you know, trying to support
• 1:54:28
  campaigns that are pushing for, for more
• 1:54:31
  transparency or, you know, or better
• 1:54:32
  regulation of these fisheries, whether
• 1:54:34
  that's, you know, industry
• 1:54:36
  led, you know, by these kind of
• 1:54:39
  fishing corporations or small scale
• 1:54:40
  fishers or different industry bodies, or
• 1:54:43
  whether it's led by NGOs or, or, you
• 1:54:46
  know, groups, I would say
• 1:54:48
  try and support that they're often trying
• 1:54:50
  to get people to add their names to
• 1:54:52
  petitions and send emails and stuff like
• 1:54:54
  that. And I think for me,
• 1:54:56
  fundamentally, that's the biggest part
• 1:54:58
  is, you know, these emails and petitions,
• 1:55:00
  ultimately, as they're being sent to the
• 1:55:02
  politicians, right,
• 1:55:03
  is, you know, is in your
• 1:55:06
  political power, it feels often,
• 1:55:08
  increasingly, in fact, that we have very
• 1:55:10
  little of it. But what little we do, you
• 1:55:13
  know, we can put to, you know, to
• 1:55:16
  candidates that maybe
• 1:55:18
  think about these issues and particularly
• 1:55:19
  environmental issues. And I think that's,
• 1:55:22
  that's a really strong way to, to be able
• 1:55:24
  to support these causes,
• 1:55:26
  which hopefully that's, that's
• 1:55:29
  encouraging. And it's just all right.
• 1:55:31
  Well, vote and vote and write emails. But
• 1:55:33
  well, I'll tell you, I mean, it makes a
• 1:55:35
  difference. I mean, we have listenership
• 1:55:39
  in over 150 different countries, you
• 1:55:41
  know, it's not just the UK, it's not just
• 1:55:43
  Canada, it's not the US, it's not just
• 1:55:45
  Australia or India, Brazil or
• 1:55:47
  Argentina, as we mentioned, it's all
• 1:55:49
  these different countries. And if we have
• 1:55:51
  people that are listening to this in a
• 1:55:53
  variety of different countries, then
• 1:55:56
  maybe if we all start talking to our
• 1:55:58
  representatives on a regular basis and
• 1:56:00
  get to know them and build relationships,
• 1:56:02
  like it's not just a matter of just
• 1:56:03
  writing to I feel like it's a matter of
• 1:56:05
  like, really getting to know and having
• 1:56:08
  those those representatives get to know
• 1:56:11
  you. And what's important to you, it
• 1:56:15
  could just be it may be environmental
• 1:56:17
  might be for different aspects of what's
• 1:56:19
  important to you, but really
• 1:56:21
  understanding that relationship between
• 1:56:22
  us and our government representatives and
• 1:56:25
  getting to know them, whoever they are,
• 1:56:27
  whatever side of the aisle they they're
• 1:56:29
  on is to is a big is a big thing.
• 1:56:31
  And probably a podcast episode in and of
• 1:56:33
  itself, or series of them in and of
• 1:56:35
  itself to get to know but you know, the
• 1:56:37
  work that you and your colleagues are
• 1:56:39
  doing, then I think is imperative, we
• 1:56:42
  need this information. This information
• 1:56:44
  is not found regularly, as you mentioned,
• 1:56:46
  it's difficult to track down, even
• 1:56:49
  finding out the length of certain boats
• 1:56:51
  is difficult, which is like you would
• 1:56:52
  think would be common information, the
• 1:56:55
  first information that they would put in
• 1:56:56
  and and sometimes it's just not. And so
• 1:56:58
  we appreciate all the
• 1:57:00
  work that you've done.
• 1:57:01
  And I think that's important, not only
• 1:57:02
  for this report, but in the past and
• 1:57:04
  research into this type of of aspect of
• 1:57:07
  fisheries. It's very important. And we
• 1:57:09
  really appreciate you coming on and
• 1:57:11
  sharing all this information with us so
• 1:57:13
  that we can have more knowledge to live
• 1:57:15
  for better ocean. So we appreciate your
• 1:57:17
  work. And we'd love to have you back on
• 1:57:18
  some time and talk about updates and
• 1:57:20
  hopefully seeing some progress in some
• 1:57:22
  changes that countries have made in the
• 1:57:25
  way they they track
• 1:57:26
  their fishing vessels.
• 1:57:28
  Thank you very much for having me on
• 1:57:29
  this. You know, I love talking about this
• 1:57:31
  stuff. And so happy to find a fellow
• 1:57:34
  person to talk and an audience who are
• 1:57:36
  keen to listen. Absolutely. Wonderful.
• 1:57:40
  Thank you so much. We appreciate it.
• 1:57:41
  Cheers, Andre. Thank you, Dan, for
• 1:57:43
  joining us on today's episode of the How
• 1:57:44
  to Protect the Ocean podcast was great to
• 1:57:46
  have you on. It was great to be able to
• 1:57:47
  try and detangle some of the complexities
• 1:57:49
  of global fishing vessels and just what
• 1:57:52
  they can get away with. It's surprising
• 1:57:54
  about what they can get away with.
• 1:57:55
  And surprising that a lot of this has
• 1:57:57
  gone on for a long time. What always
• 1:57:59
  surprises me is when you try and track
• 1:58:01
  down who owns a fishing vessel is just
• 1:58:04
  like a web. It just goes all over. You
• 1:58:06
  can be pinged all over around the world
• 1:58:07
  looking at shell companies and then, you
• 1:58:09
  know, depending on where they're from or
• 1:58:11
  how it goes at one shell company to
• 1:58:12
  another to another to
• 1:58:13
  another all over the world.
• 1:58:14
  And it's really interesting to me and
• 1:58:16
  surprising how people can get away with
• 1:58:18
  this for so long. Hopefully this report
• 1:58:20
  helps detangle this and a system is in
• 1:58:23
  place to track how vessels are owned and
• 1:58:26
  who owns these vessels right to the
• 1:58:28
  actual company that
• 1:58:28
  makes the revenue from this.
• 1:58:30
  And let's be honest, the fishing fleets
• 1:58:31
  that are doing illegal things. It's the
• 1:58:33
  crew that pays the price, but the
• 1:58:35
  companies rarely do. And that's a shame.
• 1:58:38
  And that should not happen again. So we
• 1:58:40
  are going to continue to talk about this
• 1:58:42
  in the future. But this episode really
• 1:58:44
  highlights a lot of the issues that are
• 1:58:46
  around and what can be done as
• 1:58:48
  recommendations to help get
• 1:58:50
  rid of this whole problem.
• 1:58:52
  And so I want to thank Dan again for
• 1:58:54
  joining us. We're going to put links to
• 1:58:55
  Oceana's report in the show notes so you
• 1:58:57
  can get access to that. If this is your
• 1:58:59
  first time listening to the episode, I'd
• 1:59:01
  love for you to subscribe. Follow however
• 1:59:03
  you do, whether you're watching this on
• 1:59:04
  YouTube or listening to this on your
• 1:59:05
  favorite podcast app. But I want to thank
• 1:59:07
  Dan for joining us and I want to thank
• 1:59:08
  you for listening. I really do appreciate
• 1:59:10
  all the support that you've given this
• 1:59:12
  podcast. We're getting a lot of views.
• 1:59:14
  We're getting a lot of downloads. We're
• 1:59:15
  getting a lot of listens. We're getting a
• 1:59:16
  lot of comments and engagement. It's
• 1:59:18
  always great. And if you want to connect
• 1:59:19
  with me, you can do so on
• 1:59:20
  Instagram at howdepro.com.
• 1:59:28
  And I'll try to answer as soon as I can.
• 1:59:32
  I want to thank you so much for joining
• 1:59:33
  me on today's episode of the how to
• 1:59:35
  protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host
• 1:59:36
  Andrew Lewin from the true North strong
• 1:59:38
  and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to
• 1:59:40
  you next time and happy conservation.