Latest / Crew Collective / Charlie Duke From Planet Earth: A Conversation with an Apollo Astronaut
Transcript
- Charlie Duke: [00:00:00] My dad was born in 1907, a few years after the Wright brothers, and in his lifetime he saw me land on the moon. And from putt, putt, putt, you know, 20 feet on the Wright brothers to landing on the moon in 50 years Stuart: That's astronaut Charlie Duke. He flew on the Apollo 16 mission in 1972 and became the youngest person ever to walk on the moon. I had the chance to speak with Charlie over a video call a while back. Charlie Duke: What the future holds for all of this is, uh, unlimited, I believe. Stuart: Charlie was born in 1935, smack dab in the middle of the Great Depression, at a time when NASA didn't even exist, and more than two decades before any person ever went into space. But like many people of his generation, he lived through a time when technology advanced so quickly that when he was born, most homes didn't even have a phone. [00:01:00] And by 2026, was talking to me remotely from his computer. Along with his crew mates, John Young and Ken Mattingly, Charlie set off for the moon on April 16th, 1972, in what turned out to be a crucial mission for NASA that provided tons and tons of geological data. And for Charlie, it was the adventure of a lifetime. They returned back to Earth 11 days later, having survived a handful of technical glitches and all the other perils of space travel. Comms: Fantastic. Percy Preston is planted one on the plains of Descartes. Stuart: My name is Stewart and this is Crew Collective, a podcast that tells stories about outer space. My conversation with astronaut Charlie Duke is next. Comms: The camera's off. Man, it sure ain't flat, John. Wow, there's that ridge-[00:02:00] Matt: Crew Collective is brought to you by Rocketgenius, makers of Gravity Forms. Gravity Forms was the first premium WordPress contact form plugin launched in the space over 15 years ago. Since then, brands like Delta, Christie's, and Thermo Fisher have relied on Gravity Forms for their WordPress form data needs. But so have tens of thousands of freelancers, agencies, and small creators, powering payment forms to newsletter signups. For small and large alike, Gravity Forms understands their mission: build amazing software that people trust. Learn more at gravity.com. And we trust you enjoy Crew Collective as much as the team at Rocketgenius did making it JFK: We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon Stuart: We pick up Charlie's story in 1962, when President Kennedy gave this famous speech. We JFK: choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. [00:03:00] Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills. Because that challenge is one Stuart: that we're willing to accept Now, in your memoir, you talk about the moment you heard that speech, and you had an interesting reaction to it, so I'm wondering if you could share what your initial thoughts were about that. Charlie Duke: Well, I thought, uh, he was, uh, stretching the point that we were gonna get to the moon, and, uh, by the end of 1960s. Uh, it was, uh, a- an incredible commitment. Uh, and, uh, I s- well, I said, uh, you know, I was still at MIT. Well, I was just going to MIT, I guess. And, uh, and when he committed that, uh, I said, "Wow, you know, we got 15 minutes in space, and he's committing us to the moon?" It was incredulous to me that we w- that he would ha- have the courage to do that our energies and skills. JFK: Because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept, one we are unwilling to [00:04:00] postpone, and one we intend Stuart: to meet So what changed between then and when you were part of that, I think it was called Group 5, some of the initial astronauts or members brought in for the Apollo program. What, what changed in those few years that made you reassess the, the prospect of going to the moon? Charlie Duke: Well, I guess, uh, when I got to MIT, I left Germany in, uh, let's see, when I got there in '59. I left Germany in '62 and started a master's program at MIT from '62 to '64 with the Air Force. And, uh, uh, MIT a- by then, Apollo was well underway, and MIT had the contract to build the Apollo guidance and navigation system. So I was working on the, my thesis part of that system, and I got to meet some astronauts. And, uh, I never met anybody who was, uh, so enthusiastic, uh, for, uh, a job as these guys. And I just, I asked them, [00:05:00] "How do y- uh, you know, how do I get that job?" He said, "Well, get your degree and go to Test Pilot School and you might have a chance." Uh, so that's what I did Stuart: Around the time Charlie finished his degree at MIT, NASA was setting the stage for the Apollo program and began taking applications for what became known as NASA Astronaut Group 5. He was one of some 5,000 people to throw his hat in the ring and ultimately became one of just 19 people chosen for the program. Charlie Duke: The qualifications was sort of generic. You had to be a test pilot, and that's, uh, what I was. I had to be less than six feet tall, and I was. I had to be less than 37 years old, and I was. Whatever it was. Anyway, uh, so I asked my boss, I said, "How do I do this?" And, uh, being in the Air Force, I had to go through channels. And so anyway, NASA s- uh, the Air Force picked me, [00:06:00] and they sent me to NASA. And then NASA, uh, through a series of process and interviews, uh, in the spring of '66, I guess it was, uh, I got a call from Deke Slayton that said, "Hey, we picked you, and, uh, can you, uh, be here by May of, uh, next month?" And I said, "I think so. Uh, I'll see you there." And so, uh, we picked up and moved our family from Edwards to, uh, Houston, and I started at, uh, started a career, uh, there. It was a very exciting 10 years. Stuart: So when did it first occur to you that landing on the moon was a real prospect, not some pie-in-the-sky idea from a president, that landing on the moon was real, it could happen, you guys had the technology and the knowledge to do so? When did that become a, a reality? Charlie Duke: Well, we demonstrated ability to land on the moon with the Surveyor. Uh, that certainly was a capability, that we could send an object, a spacecraft, to [00:07:00] the moon unmanned, and, uh, land it on the moon, and, uh, start transmitting data back. Uh, so that was a, a tremendous, uh, accomplishment, I thought. So later on, after, uh, on Apollo 12, they landed right next to the Surveyor. Got, copied a piece, got a piece of it, and, uh, took their pictures, and, uh, brought back their moon rocks, and brought back a piece of the Surveyor. So, uh, that was the second landing on the moon. That was, uh, Apollo 12, I guess it was Stuart: Well, I want you to take me back to the night of July 20th, 1969. That's the night of the first moon landing. That's Apollo 11. And, uh, I, I've always, I'd always knew this quote, and I never knew it was you that said it until recently, and I'm, I'm gonna read you the quote, 'cause it makes me laugh every time I hear it. Uh, you said something to the effect of, "You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue here. We're breathing again. [00:08:00] Thanks a lot." And that was you. You're in Mission Control. Was there any... I mean, I could imagine why it was a tense situation, but was there any really doubt that they were gonna land safely? Charlie Duke: Yeah. We were, uh, uh, on the fumes, fuel-wise, and, uh, we ca- we had a call that said 60 seconds, which, uh, Me- Mission Control, and that meant they had 60 seconds to land or we were gonna call it aboard. So I said, uh, "Eagle, 60 seconds." And then, uh, 30 seconds later I said, "Eagle, 30 seconds." And I was counting my, counting down on my stopwatch, and, uh, uh, they were close, but not on the ground, and, uh, they were getting dust and everything like that. And then, uh, 13 seconds later, according to my stopwatch, uh, I heard Buzz Aldrin said, "Contact. Engine stop." And I said, "Man, phew. They on the ground." That's when, uh, uh, Neil responded, and I responded, "You [00:09:00] got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot." Comms: Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed. Roger, Tran- Tranquility. We copy you on the ground. You got a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again. Thanks a lot Charlie Duke: So that was just a, that was a cushion of, uh, a minute or so fuel. And so, uh, when we called 60 seconds, uh, that meant that under the present fuel state and the engine settings, they had 60 seconds to get on the moon or we were gonna call it aboard. But the final decision was Neil's. He had the overall picture, and, uh, we were just looking at altitude and fuel states and stuff like that, and he's looking at the big picture, and he's 20 feet off the ground. And if we'd have called it aboard, I said, "It's ..." He [00:10:00] said ... He had the final say, "I'm landing." And, uh, so, uh, he, uh, we didn't get that far, but, uh, he had the final say, and so he was gonna land. I'm convinced he was gonna land no matter what we said in Mission Control. Uh, in fact, if I'd have ... I, I tease everybody. I was just I said, uh, "If I'd have said, uh, 'Hey, Neil, abort,' it would've been, 'Say again, Houston?'" Uh, he would've i- ignored my call and, uh, and landed. Stuart: My, my understanding, though, is that President Nixon had a second speech he had written in case things didn't go well. Were you guys aware of that contingency? I mean, I'm sure, like you said, you, you guys were very well prepared. But were, were you, uh- Charlie Duke: Uh, uh, we knew that he had a statement to make, positive or negative. Yeah, we knew that in Mission Control. And, uh, but, uh, nobody ... Of course, he hadn't let on, uh, what the [00:11:00] contents of the speech was. Uh, maybe Public Affairs knew, but, uh, nobody in Mission Control had, had, had even thought about it, actually Stuart: One of the things I was surprised to read about was when you were train- training to go to the moon, the survival training you guys did. They took you out to the jungle, they took you to the desert, they put you in some- Yeah ... pretty extreme scenarios, and that was the contingency there was not what would happen on the moon, but what could happen on the return journey. Charlie Duke: Well, you didn't know. Yeah, you know, you had a point, uh, hit, to hit the Pacific Ocean, uh, western, uh, eastern Pacific Ocean. And, uh, but, uh, if the guidance went wrong or you lost your guidance, you'd just sort of start spinning, and then that would just, that'd bring you in, but you didn't know where you're gonna land. And so it could be in the jungle, it could [00:12:00] be in the desert, it could be, uh, at, in the ocean. Uh, so, uh, they wanted us to be trained, uh, in all of those situations in case we had an extreme emergency on reentry. And so that's why we went through, uh, desert survival and, uh, jungle survival. And, uh, so we were available, I mean, ready for any contingency Stuart: I read, last year I read, uh, Apollo Remastered by Andy Saunders. Uh, I guess more realistically I w- I looked at it, 'cause it was mostly pictures. But one of the things he talked about was as your training evolved, or I guess maybe as the missions evolved, uh, documenting the process became a really big priority. And I know that some astronauts, I don't know if you were one of them, part of the training was to practice taking pictures for the moon. Uh, was that part of your training? Charlie Duke: Yeah, [00:13:00] and, uh, we, they, uh, issued us a, uh, Hasselblad camera with a bracket, and, uh, I'd take it out on the weekends and, uh, and, uh, practice in the backyard, you know, pointing it one way or the other, up, down, down, right, left, and, uh ... So we got pretty efficient at, uh, at pointing that camera and, um, making sure where we were pointed was what we wanted to take a picture of. And so, uh, in your space suit, uh, uh, it, it, uh, uh, we had a, a bracket, uh, that the ha- pa- hanger, uh, the camera hang- hung on, and we had a strap thing that we practiced with that's sim- was very similar. And so we'd hang the thing around our neck, and I'd walk around the backyard just taking pictures, and, uh, and, uh, changing out, uh, we had a set of gloves that, uh, we'd put on, and you could to- [00:14:00] learn how to undo the film canisters, uh, uh, with the gloves on, and things like that. So, uh, uh, w- we thought of, uh, most things that would be necessary to, uh, make it successful, uh, not only contingency, but, uh, regular, uh, uh, regular procedures we developed. Stuart: Yeah, did you have A photographer training you because it seems like, I don't know, it, it almost seems like in addition to this being a geological mission, a scientific mission, that there was a degree of photojournalism that took place. 'Cause, I mean, part of this was, like, you know, you were there via by extension of the invitation of Congress and, and the American people, and I know they really wanted, you know, to go back to the public and say, like, "Look. Look at what we've got." So what were you thinking about, like, when you were taking pictures, you know, both on the Moon and, and preparing? Were you wanting to, I [00:15:00] guess, people to see the Moon as you saw it? Were you trying to stage pictures? Charlie Duke: No. Uh, we had a procedure. Uh, the geologists had a, uh, they wanted us to document, uh, uh, the samples. So we had a down sun, we had a, a cross sun from b- every way, and then a, uh, and, and got the sample, uh, that we were gonna pick up. Uh, those photographs, there were three or four. Uh, and uh, they told us what f-stop to use, what, uh, cam, uh, film to use. Uh, and, um, a- and we had a trigger on the camera, and we just bent over and clicked, and it took a picture and moved and just took a, the series of pictures that the geologists wanted to take, us to take of every sample. And, uh, so we got in a pretty good routine, uh, with, you know, John and I. We were delayed two years due to [00:16:00] Apollo fire, and, uh, ended up, uh, oh, the 13, actually the 13, uh, accident. Uh, and, uh, so we, we were... I probably took 4,000 or 5,000 pictures in practice. Stuart: What were you taking, like, pictures of at home? Just like stuff around the yard, of your family? Charlie Duke: Well, around the, uh, at the house, uh, we just, you know, took pictures of the kids in the backyard and, uh, various things. And then we had, uh, uh, geology training and, uh, out in the field, uh, we'd see a rock, and so we'd do exactly what we were supposed to do to document that sample. Uh, uh, down sun, cross sun, uh, and, uh, right f-stops and, uh, focus and all of that stuff. There was set, uh, we had a s- preset, uh, set of f-stops and, uh, uh, focus, uh, uh, lengths and stuff like that that, uh, uh, [00:17:00] that we got, that we practiced and we got down pretty well. It was just sort of mechanical, uh, by the time we got to the Moon, 'cause I'd probably taken se- several thousand people, uh, pictures with my Hasselblad by the time I actually did it on the Moon. Stuart: And once they got to the moon, documenting everything they saw was a top priority. They captured stunning panoramic views and were able to map out the Descartes region Comms: I think it sure is, isn't it? We are here. Well, congratulations. Okay, 088 at 1.0 is, uh... And we stop, uh, Stuart: John. They landed there specifically because NASA believed that it was formed from a volcanic explosion. But what Charlie and John Young discovered, while Kid Mattingly was orbiting above, was that the region wasn't an ancient volcano at all. It formed when asteroids hit other parts of the moon and scattered rock and debris everywhere. This discovery was a [00:18:00] big deal. And along with rock samples, they brought back film for thousands and thousands of photographs that had both scientific value and looked pretty amazing ... there for a while. Comms: Here he comes, folks. He's got the hammer out. I knew he couldn't resist. I don't know if this will work or not, Shirley. But I couldn't pick a better spot. Charlie Duke: Here we go. The sun's always was, sun was always in the eastern sky. It was climbing in the eastern sky, so the shadows were getting shorter, but the sc- shadows always, from where we were, you could say the shadow was west. Uh, and the sun was behind us. And so we'd, we'd take pictures down sun, cross sun, uh, just according to the procedures. And, uh, it was, uh, uh, uh, I mean, it was, it's just, it was real... But [00:19:00] we'd taken so many pictures and practiced, it was just second nature to us. Uh, we knew what we had to do and how to document a sample. And, uh, so we, uh, we carried it out with, uh, basically rote precision. Stuart: So were there any spontaneous pictures that you Charlie Duke: took? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. "Hey, John, let me get you, get a picture of this and a picture of that." And, uh, yeah, you'd see the rover or you'd see, uh, uh, from up on top of Stone Mountain. On the second excursion, we climbed up on the Stone Mountain in our rover and turned around, and you could see all the way across the valley to the mountains on the north side. And so we took a lot of pictures up there that were spontaneous. And, uh, uh, and, uh, but we had a fuel, uh, a film budget, so we, uh, we couldn't, um, waste too many I think the favorite [00:20:00] picture that I took was, uh, uh, John Young saluting the flag, and he jumped up. He was so excited, he gave a big jump for joy, a big Navy, and I saw a big Navy salute, and he was about a foot or two feet off the ground when I snapped that picture. And, uh, that was probably one of my favorite pictures. And, uh, then the next was probably, uh, from up on top of Stone Mountain, looking back across the valley to what we call Smoky Mountains on the far side. You could see the, um, uh, a big crater up there called North Ray Crater and, uh- Stuart: I know you took a photo of your family up there and then took a picture of that Charlie Duke: Yeah, that was one of the last things I did. I had permission from, uh, NASA to, uh, take this, uh, l- it was just a little snapshot of my family, and I, and I said, "Can I leave this up on the Moon?" They said, "Sure." So, uh, I stuck [00:21:00] it in the last EVA. I stuck it into s- my suit pocket, and, uh, one of the final things I did was take that out and drop it onto the Moon. And, uh, it l- landed face side up, so I took a picture of the picture, and, uh, didn't last very long. The temperature on the Moon, the surface of the Moon at that point was probably 130 degrees Fahrenheit. So you can imagine a little plastic photo just started curling up almost instantly in, uh, when it was exposed to that heat. But it's was, I got it quick enough so that you could take a, you could tell it was my family. Stuart: Yeah, you had a caption that you wrote with that picture. Do you remember what it was? Charlie Duke: Uh, yeah, on, I think, uh, uh, on the back I said, "Here's the family of astronaut Charlie Duke from planet Earth who landed on the Moon on Apollo 16," and l- I think we, I left the date on it and, uh, and that was about it. Stuart: I know you were allowed certain personal [00:22:00] items when you went to the Moon. What were some of the things you took with you? Charlie Duke: Well, I took, uh, uh, uh, uh, some jewelry, a, a brooch. I had a, a couple of special jewelry pieces that I had, uh, designed by a jeweler in, in Houston. Uh, it was a ... I gave one to my mom, and my mother-in-law, and my sister, and, uh, Dottie. Uh, it, uh, showed a moon in a, sort of an orbit with three little, uh, moon stones, uh, in it. And, uh, then we, uh, had a, uh, uh, a special, uh, jewel piece that, uh, uh, Al Rockwell had, uh, had designed, and, um, he, he... I got permission to take... He did two of them, and I got permission to take them and, uh, to the surface of the Moon, and, uh, brought them back. And, um, they were beautiful pieces, and, uh, uh, [00:23:00] all, all jewels. And, uh, you know, it was Apollo 16 emblem, actually, and, uh, in, in, in, uh, uh, rubies and, uh, emeralds, and stuff like that. And, uh, so I had a couple of those. And, uh, uh, Dottie still wears hers occasionally, but it's a very special piece, and, uh, so she r- rarely breaks it out of the safe. Stuart: You also took a cassette tape with you, uh, if I recall correctly. Tell me about that. Charlie Duke: Well, e- everybody, uh, could, uh... All of the flights, the crew could have two hours of music, your choice. I love country music, so, uh, uh, I had a disc jockey friend in, uh, Houston, uh, Bill Bailey, who was a big country music disc jockey at KIKK in Pasadena, Texas. And I said, "Bill, can you get me some country music?" He said, "You got it." And I had two hours, and [00:24:00] so these, uh, two hours worth of tapes showed up, and, uh, he said, "Now, don't listen to them till you got on board, uh, on your way to the moon." So I, I, I did. And, um, so the first time I plugged in it was, uh, "Hey, Charlie, this is Merle Haggard." Uh, no, no it was, uh, "This is, uh, Porter Wagoner and Dolly Parton, and we got a special half-hour program for you." And they started singing songs, and talking to us, and joking about, uh, us. And that, so that was a half hour. And then, uh, Merle Haggard had a half hour, and then, um, Chet Atkins had a half hour. And, uh, there were four one half-hour tapes, so it was two hours of, of tapes. Of, and these very special program. Every one of them had done a special program at Bill Bailey's request, and they were very excited about, uh, uh, about being on board with us. And, uh, so the originals that when I got back I gave them to the, uh, [00:25:00] Country Music Hall of Fame. Uh, I made copies of everything, so now I've got them on CDs now. Uh, and, uh, still listen to them occasionally Stuart: Well, I think it also speaks to the fact that, like, the public was very engaged with the Apollo program, and you guys were, for all ... You, you were celebrities. Um, h- did that fame, did that... 'Cause fame changes people. I mean, it really does. Did it, do you feel like it changed you? Charlie Duke: Not really. Um, I mean, I was honored to have been one of the ones selected, you know. 20 s- uh, 27 astronauts, only 20 of us got to go to the moon, and, uh, no, 24 got to go to the moon, and only 12 of us got to walk, so it was a big honor. And, uh, to, uh, have, with John Young especially, the, he was an icon, uh, in the astronaut office. And, uh, uh, we got to be really, really good friends. We trained [00:26:00] back up and, uh, then flew together, and then trained back up on Apollo 17. It was our final, uh, crew, crew assignment together. So, uh, uh, we got to know one another and, uh, love one another and, uh, families got, uh, uh, my wife and his wife were, uh, good friends. And, uh, John probably had the best engineering mind. There's gonna be a special coming out on him, by the way, uh, as, uh, uh, John Young. And, uh, uh, he, uh, he probably had the best engineering mind on the, uh, on, in the astronaut office. But he wasn't flashy. You know, he didn't wear Badeline shirts. He didn't have, didn't drove ca- Corvettes or anything like that. He was just John, and he'd shuffle into a meeting and, uh, with his notepad, and, uh, and he'd sit there and, uh, uh, sort [00:27:00] of a aw shucks type of guy. And, uh, and a lot of times the briefers come in, and they really didn't know him. And, uh, and, uh, uh, and then he would ask the first question And the question was always a brilliant zinger, you know? And I think it just stopped most of these, these, uh, briefers, uh, in their tracks. He just knew exactly how to zero in on a problem. And, uh, I learned so much from him in training and, um, and, and the, uh, coolness that he experienced, that we experienced on the moon together. We trained so much together, you know. We had backup on 13, and we had two-year delay after that, so we trained for two years together. We were in the simulator for thousands of hours together. And, uh, we were like brothers, and, uh, we, we could sort of read every, uh, read your mind, you know, about... [00:28:00] We knew exactly what to do, and I knew exactly how he was gonna respond. He knew how I was gonna respond in various situations. And, uh, and so we had a lot of confidence in one another. And, uh, and, uh, it, uh, if I had a- any, uh, uh, a friend that was as close as m- my bro- my twin brother, uh, it would be John. Stuart: You mentioned your twin brother. There's, there's a funny story, uh, from your book. You're... This is, now this, we're gonna go back before you left for the moon. You're in quarantine, which I think is protocol for going on a, on a space mission, uh, if I'm not mistaken, and some NASA administrators are hanging out at the pool at the Holiday Inn, and they think they see Charlie Duke. Charlie Duke: Yeah. My brother walks out, he's staying at the Holiday Inn, and he walks out of his room, and he doesn't know, he doesn't know them from Adam. And, uh, but he looks over at them, and then he remembers, he [00:29:00] tells me he remembered he forgot his wallet or something, so he had to go back in his room. And they thought it was me. Uh, I mean, he's an identical twin. And, uh- ... so, uh, they called up and says, "What's Charlie Duke doing down here at the Holiday Inn?" They said, "Well, he's right here. You wanna talk to him?" And so, uh, we had a big laugh over that. And, uh, so, uh... And then, uh, another thing happened later on. Uh, uh, during, uh, one of our EVAs in Apollo 16, I'm bouncing around on the moon, and my brother's in mission control, and he's in a back viewing area. And, uh, flight s- he's a do- he was a doctor, and so the flight surgeon f- uh, found out he was back there, and he said, "Hey, would you like to come watch, look at your, your brother's EKG and everything?" So he walks on the mission control, uh, as I'm up on the screen in the mission control bouncing around on the moon. Well, I mean, it stopped the show, you know? [00:30:00] And, um, uh, uh, it, uh, it's just a guy, "Well, wait a minute. What's he walking in the door, and I'm seeing him up on the moon?" And, uh, so everybody got a big laugh out of that. Stuart: You heard Charlie say at the top of the show that his dad was born in 1907. At that point in history, space travel was purely a thing of science fiction. People like Jules Verne, Johannes Kepler, and H.G. Wells, to name a few, had all imagined space travel. But for people born before commercial air flight was even really a thing, Charlie's parents watching him walk on the moon must have been pretty surreal Charlie Duke: Well, they were both really proud. Uh, I was, uh, South Carolina's first astronaut. Uh, and uh, my- uh, we had a, a, a big family. My grandmother, great-grandmother ... Well, my grandmother was, uh, one of [00:31:00] 16 kids, and uh, so you know, there was a wh- whole bunch of cousins back in, uh, uh, and relatives back in upstate South Carolina. And so everybody was really excited when I got selected, and uh, as an astronaut, uh, South Carolina's first astronaut, and it's a big deal. And, and so, uh, I got a lot of support from family, a lot of prayers, and uh, and uh, I think half the state of South Carolina showed up for my launch at Kennedy Space Center. And uh, my dad was there, my, all my relatives, and uh, you know, it was this, uh, this homecoming actually and, uh, to them. And, uh, fortunately, we lifted off right on schedule, and uh, they got to see the big Saturn V roaring into space, and uh, uh, that I was riding on. So it turned out to be a big family thing, and uh, I'm just delighted that, uh, [00:32:00] all of my sister and, uh, younger sister and all, a lot of cousins, and uh, you know, just you can imagine the, the relatives we had in South Carolina that all wanted to come. I only had 100 invitations, but uh, uh, I said, "I can't get everybody up into the viewing area, but I can ... Y'all can come and, and watch it from the beach or whatever." But NASA gave me extra tickets and stuff like that, so we had a, I had a big cheering section. Stuart: You have two kids, and y- you're married. What's that conversation like when you find out you're going to the Moon? And it's not like going to Phoenix for a weekend. I mean, it's, you know, it's not guaranteed that you're returning when you, when you take off. So what was that conversation like with, with your wife? Charlie Duke: You know, uh, she lived in a, we lived in an area that was all astronauts, and, uh, and, uh, she had experienced the deaths of, uh, [00:33:00] uh, several, uh, of the astronauts while We got there in the spring of '66, and then in January of '67, the, uh, Apollo 1 caught fire. They'd already had four airplane accidents, and, uh, so there were eight fatalities, uh, in the astronaut office in, over a space of couple years, uh, back then. But the, everybody came together and, um, the families, uh, supported one another, and, uh, and I don't ever remember, uh, any of the wives Well, maybe a few wringing their hands, you know, "Oh, my God. Why are you doing this?" And, but my wife was, uh, Dottie was real supportive the whole time. And, uh, the problem was, uh, we trained, it was such a delay for us. We were training in Florida, but lived in Houston. And so, uh, uh, [00:34:00] you know, from Monday, Sunday to Friday night, uh, I was, uh, down in Florida, and she was taking care of the kids, and growing the kids, and, and all of that stuff, taking care of the house. So, uh, it was a s- a strain on our relationship that developed and, uh, but, uh Several years later, after she became a believer, uh, then I became a believer. Uh, God healed it all, and, uh, so now we're solid. Uh, we've just celebrated our, let's see, we, we married '63, so, uh, 62 years. Stuart: I think a lot of times when someone c- you know, finds religion later in life, no mat- no matter what the religion is, it's because something is happening. Could be trauma, could be problems with, with drugs or alcohol. So what, what was going on in your life when you, when you made that conversion? Charlie Duke: I'd always, uh, called myself [00:35:00] a Christian. I was baptized, was a young boy in South Carolina. And so I had Jesus in my head, but not in my heart. And I knew who He was. Uh, I claimed Him as Savior, but He was just really a, a, a historical figure for a long time for me. Until, um, uh, '76 when I went to a Bible study and, uh, just several thoughts when I was sitting in my automobile before we went home. And I said, "You know, this is either true or the biggest lie ever perpetrated against humanity." So I chose, uh, I said, "Lord, I believe it's true. I believe you're a Savior. That you came and died and resurrect- and was bor- uh, raised from the dead. And, uh, you died for my sins, and I receive you." And when I ex- said that, I, I had ex- this experience, this peace. Uh, [00:36:00] it was, the Holy Spirit just came on me, and I just had the peace of God. And, uh, and that, uh, and that experience began, and I be- From through that experience, I began to, uh, have this insatiable desire to read the Bible and to apply it in my life. And, uh, God convicted me about, uh, several things, about, uh, being a bad dad. And so I, uh, began to ask God to forgive me, ask the family to forgive me, and we began to build a, a raci- a relationship in our family on the foundation of, uh, of Jesus. And, uh, and that really, that was started about '76, I guess it was. And, uh, it, uh, was a tremendous experience. And so Dottie and I are still serving the Lord. We, it, it got, uh- So important to us, we founded, founded, uh, Duke Ministries for Christ. Uh, and, uh, it's, [00:37:00] uh, 5013C, and, uh, uh, we fund it. And, uh, people would give... I'd go out and speak, uh, at churches and stuff. They'd given me money, but I didn't need any money. And so we, "What do we do with all this money they're giving us?" And so we formed, uh, Duke Ministry for Christ as a, a nonprofit. And, um, and so all the money that we receive, we just put into that, and then we give into that. And, uh, people that need m- money, uh, other ministries and stuff like that, we, uh, pray and send them money. Stuart: I remember one of the things that stuck out to me in reading your book was you talked about how while you're going through this training and, and being away from your family, that when you were around, it felt like you had kinda disrupted their routine, that they had kinda developed this whole dynamic away from you. Do, do you feel like, you know, the, the strain and the pressure and the obligation you had to NASA and, and to your country, was that part of [00:38:00] what was contributing to some of your issues with your family? Charlie Duke: Yeah. Uh-huh. No question. Your mind's on On, on this job, basically, and, uh, uh, so y- you never basically get away from it. And, uh, you know, like I said, we were training in Florida but lived in Houston, and so, uh, you're gone a lot. And, uh, it, it ... That was hard on the family, and there were a lot of astronauts end up b- divorced and, uh, uh, estranged from their wives and family. And so, uh, uh, there was just a lot of pressures, and fortunately ours survived, uh, uh, due to, uh, Dottie's, uh, c- becoming a believer, and, uh, uh, just forgiving me and receiving me, and the boys, uh, were young enough to, uh, weather it. And so now, you know, it, uh, kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, uh, we're [00:39:00] all serving the Lord. Stuart: One of the things we're exploring in this series is this idea that, you know, we're gonna live on the moon, we're gonna colonize Mars, and that ostensibly this is an effort to save humanity. We're gonna, by in doing so, we're, we're gonna save humanity. And, and I'm curious about how your religious beliefs, how, how that informs how you think about that. Charlie Duke: I think that's a dream- ... of colonizing Mars. I'm not Stuart: advocating Charlie Duke: either one. I just think about- Not me ... who would wanna live on Mars? I mean, every time y- ... you know, every time you go outside, you gotta put on a space suit. It's not uninhabitable, but it's, it, it's a sp- outside is a sp- it's nothing out there except wind and dust and, uh ... And so, uh, I don't see us, people, uh, we ... I have some friends that say, "Well, we're gonna, Earth is gonna give out." Well, I don't believe that. We got a lot of resources, and [00:40:00] we c- we're learning how to use the resources undersea, and we're losing how to, learning how to re- use the resources on the moon. Uh, the moon has a lot of resources that we can use and mine, and it'd be a lot e- easier to mine those resources on the moon and bring them back and use them down here than it is to, uh, try to go out and colonize Mars. Uh, a Mars trip, robotics is so great now that why, why risk a human being to go to Mars when you can, uh, ha- have something basically with human intelligence, with AI and all of that stuff that's doing the job of a human being, uh, uh, without the exposure? So I, I'm not a, I'm not a big colonizer of Mars with people, but, uh, I certainly, but, uh, I certainly believe in Mars for, uh, exploration Stuart: I, I, I remember reading a quote where you talked about, uh, human exploration and, and it [00:41:00] was something to the effect of, you know, people want to experience exploration through man's eyes. So do you think there will ever be a, a manned mission to Mars? And I'm not saying colonizing necessarily. Charlie Duke: Yeah, I think so. We'll be able to, uh, overcome the expos- uh, radiation exposures and, uh, uh, protect the crew. And, uh, I have nothing against, uh, a manned exploration of Mars, sending people to Mars. Uh, I don't think we'll ever colonize it and live up there, but, uh, who knows what the future's gonna hold. Uh, and I'm not against any of that. Uh, I think it's down the road. I, I, I see more important things of, uh, of moon bases and stuff like that, and learning how to live on the Moon, and manufacturing up on the... Not manufacturing, but living on the Moon, and using the Moon's resources to... They're a lot easier to bring back than Mars m- uh, [00:42:00] resources and, and there's a lot up on the Moon, uh, that, uh, is, uh, extremely valuable. Yeah. Helium-3, for instance, which is not available down here. And, uh, I would be more inclined to let- let's build a moon base, and let's have a permanent presence on, on the Moon, and cycle people back and forth, just like we do down in Antarctica. Hostile environment down there, but people live down there year-round Stuart: Well, you lived on the moon for, for about three or four days. Is that a place you would wanna live permanently if, if you could? Charlie Duke: Not permanently, but I wouldn't mind, uh, you know, being an astronaut, staying up there. Like people stay a year on the space station, you could stay a year on the moon, and I think it'd probably be easier to stay on the moon for a year- Yeah than it is on the space station- Worse EP probably ... 'cause you got gravity on the moon. So, uh, y- you know, uh, what the future holds for all of this is, uh, [00:43:00] unlimited, I believe, uh, as far as, uh, uh, how we can use the resources of the moon and, uh, and, uh, a- and the exploration capability we have with communications and, and software and AI and all of that stuff. It, uh, it's hard to imagine what 50 years from now, you can think about it. A- a- and you can't even conceive it, actually, not think about it, but conceive it. My dad was born in s- 1907, a few years after the Wright brothers, and in his lifetime he saw me land on the moon. And from putt- putt- putt, you know, 20 feet on the Wright brothers to landing on the moon in 50 years. So, you know, we got technology is, uh, just exploding and expanding, and if it's used correctly, it would benefit, uh, everybody. [00:44:00] Stuart: And that's my conversation with Charlie Duke. One of the things that's always impressed me about the early space missions, aside from everything, is that when you look at the people involved in making them happen, the scientists, the engineers, the technicians, and of course astronauts like Charlie, none of them really had any precedent for this kind of work. It's not like they had astronauts to look up to when they were kids. They were the trailblazers, and Charlie's story is part of a much larger journey, one that on the surface might seem like a story about space travel, and it is. But there's also some human interest stories in all of this, and those are also worth telling Welcome to season two of Crew Collective, where we tell stories about outer space. This season, we'll be exploring seven different stories with some sort of cosmic connection. Dr. Mitchell: Even today, the Tang is still in- on the space stations. Gerry Canavan: [00:45:00] If you look at the kinds of things that Kennedy was saying at the start of the space race, right, he's announcing a kind of science fictional imaginary as the policy of the US government. Scott Solomon: I think the psychological challenges of, of sending people to Mars are really significant and really important. Chanda Prescod-Weinstein: Again, just coming back to the Star Trek universe, that universe actually imagines that first, before we become kind of this multi-planetary, space-faring, multi-species community, humans go through a really horrific 2020s. Richard Foss: The astronauts are not getting shore leave anytime soon. People on a moon base are not getting meaningful shore leave anytime soon. Stuart: It's not a complete history and not a definitive guide to the future, and I'm certainly no space expert. Far from it. But hopefully these stories will help tell us something about the past, where we're at now, and just maybe [00:46:00] where we could be headed So come along with us on this journey Crew Collective is presented by Rocket Genius. Our executive producers are Carl Hancock, Matt Medeiros, and Travis Todds. Learn more at rocketgenius.com and find all of our other episodes at crewcollectivepodcast.com or anywhere else you get podcasts. Original music for this series is written and recorded by Doug Hoyer. Find more of his tunes at doughoyer.com, and you can also support him on Bandcamp. Additional music for this episode comes from Blue Dot Sessions and Storyblocks. This episode was written, produced, researched, narrated, and edited by me. I'm Stuart Barefoot. Learn more about my work at stuartproduces.com. And that does it for this [00:47:00] episode, but stay tuned to this space 'cause we've got plenty more stories in the works