Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Debbie Cox Bultan - Effective Governance Is The Winning Path for Democrats

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Interview Only w/ Debbie Cox Bultan - Effective Governance Is The Winning Path for Democrats · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: com slash chuck. Use that code well. One of the
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: things that I would assume most of you now know
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: when it comes to my thought put together, is that
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: they're coalitions. There is no there is no in theory.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I think both the Democratic Coalition and the Republican Coalition
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: have two or three political parties underneath it. If we
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: were a parliamentary system, and what that means right now
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  Speaker 1: inside the Democratic Party is that there is a call
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: it a fight, call it a debate, you know, about
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  Speaker 1: the direction of where the party should go. You have
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  Speaker 1: progressives very loudly wanting to shift the party in one direction.
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  Speaker 1: And then you've got what was in the nineties called
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  Speaker 1: the DLC, the Bill Clinton wing of the party, maybe
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: the blue Dogs. However you want to call it the
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: sort of center left, and one could argue they've the
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: center left has suffered from not having a name that
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  Speaker 1: everybody is comfortable with. That doesn't sound like it's a
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  Speaker 1: pejorative when you say things like that. Well, my guest
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  Speaker 1: today is Debbie Cox Bolton. She is the head of
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  Speaker 1: New dem Leaders, which bills itself as a center left
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  Speaker 1: group and trying to see if they can come up
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  Speaker 1: with the agenda that can keep a majority coalition together. Debbie,
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  Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me appreciate it.
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  Speaker 1: Let me start with that branding issue, because we a
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  Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, when I'm on the air
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: doing election coverage, you know, we'll talk about a Democratic
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: primary and it's the progressive candidate versus and sometimes is
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: it mainstream Well, that can be offensive to people and progressive. Okay,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: we're mainstream too, is it legacy? Well that sounds like
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: the little derogatory right, which is pragmatic. Well, sometimes those
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: in the center left thing this is not about pragma.
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  Speaker 1: Were not compromising this as a belief system, which is
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  Speaker 1: I feel like the center left doesn't have a good
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  Speaker 1: brand yet, like the one moniker that doesn't feel like
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  Speaker 1: there's a hidden pejorative in how you describe the center left.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that fair. I mean I think that a lot
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  Speaker 2: of the words that people think of now is dirty,
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  Speaker 2: like compromise.
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  Speaker 1: And don't calling the collaboration now collaboration right away, amusing
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  Speaker 1: language like cross partisan. We don't say bipartisan anymore.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I take your point. I mean, if I
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  Speaker 2: have to say one thing about New Deal leaders and
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  Speaker 2: the others folks in our kind of center left ecosystem,
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  Speaker 2: I call it to get shit done, Democrats, to be
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  Speaker 2: honest with you. And if you think about some of
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  Speaker 2: the governors that kind of govern in that way, a
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  Speaker 2: lot of whom are being bandied about for maybe presidential
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  Speaker 2: twenty eight, a lot of them I think fall under
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  Speaker 2: that category, whether it's Josh Shapiro or Andy Basheer or
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  Speaker 2: Gretchen and Whitmer kind of to fix the roads, make
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  Speaker 2: government work for people. I think that's really if I
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  Speaker 2: had to, if I would want someone to think about
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  Speaker 2: the center left and what would that mean, I would
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  Speaker 2: be very happy if that's what they thought about.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. Governors are always been sort of
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  Speaker 1: the place that, you know, whether when the Republican Party
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  Speaker 1: is trying to present itself as reformers, they'll point to governors.
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  Speaker 1: When the Democratic Party wants to say, hey we've got reformers,
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  Speaker 1: point to governors. And obviously there's a lot more leeway
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  Speaker 1: you get as a governor ideologically, and there's an expectation
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  Speaker 1: of getting stuff done that allows you to sort of
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  Speaker 1: get away with compromising that maybe as a legislature legislator
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  Speaker 1: you don't have that luxury on this front. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: because it seems to be it's always the case that
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  Speaker 1: the governors are where you at least see stuff happening.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so a new deal we are a
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  Speaker 2: group of carefully chosen center left, pragmatic whenever we want
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  Speaker 2: to call it, state and local lectial officials below the
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  Speaker 2: level of governor. So a lot of our folks have
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  Speaker 2: risen up with three governors now who came through a
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  Speaker 2: new deal. But I would also add to what you
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  Speaker 2: just said as mayors and county officials, kind of those
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  Speaker 2: executive branch folks and the pipeline of those people who
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  Speaker 2: are having to fix the potholes or bounce the budget
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  Speaker 2: in a way that legislative bodies often, as you say,
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  Speaker 2: kind of you know, you can get a win by
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  Speaker 2: just scoring a political point. You don't actually have to
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  Speaker 2: deliver that. That is a distinction. Obviously, we still have
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  Speaker 2: we have a lot of state legislators that we work with.
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  Speaker 2: They're doing great things too, but there is a difference
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  Speaker 2: when you have to actually when the buck stops here,
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  Speaker 2: if you will, with some of the executives.
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  Speaker 1: Look, what you just described to me sounds like the
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  Speaker 1: old DLC Democratic Leadership Council, which was started in the
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  Speaker 1: mid eighties sort of after Mondale, when the sort of
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  Speaker 1: old labor Liberalism was seen as sort of a tired,
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  Speaker 1: a tired organizing messaging outlet for the Democrats and those
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  Speaker 1: that were trying to sort of shift the party to
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  Speaker 1: not being so antagonistic towards business back in the day.
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  Speaker 1: That would be I would argue the sort of the
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  Speaker 1: what I think Al from would agree with that description.
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  Speaker 1: He was the founder of the DLC. What's different and
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  Speaker 1: what's the same about what you're doing?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I spent fifteen years at the DLC
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  Speaker 2: and was Archief of staff at one point, and so
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  Speaker 2: I'm quite familiar and I mean, look, I really grew
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  Speaker 2: up there, to be honest with you. So so I
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  Speaker 2: think that there are some things that I feel like
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  Speaker 2: are common DNA that I really learned lessons there is.
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  Speaker 2: The most of which was you've got a modern you know,
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  Speaker 2: we've got to modernize progressive politics for the twenty first century.
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  Speaker 2: You have nothing else. It was that you can't stay still,
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  Speaker 2: that you've got to have bold experimentation, that you've got
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  Speaker 2: to stick true to your values. I think that some
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  Speaker 2: of the DLC words like responsibility, opportunity, and communities still
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  Speaker 2: ring really true, but that you know, you've got to
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  Speaker 2: be willing to do things differently for different ages. You
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  Speaker 2: also have to be willing to say when something's not
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  Speaker 2: working and say that was great we tried that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: we had a you know, a vision for why that
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  Speaker 2: might work. So I think there's a lot of that
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  Speaker 2: DNA in New Deal. I'd also say that as Democrats
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  Speaker 2: who believe the government can do good things, we have
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  Speaker 2: a special responsibility to make it work work well as Democrats.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's another piece that sometimes we got
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  Speaker 2: always focus on across the party lines, is how do
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  Speaker 2: we actually make sure the government is delivering results? So
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  Speaker 2: so some of those things are are are There's definitely
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  Speaker 2: some similarities there in our in our outlook, if you will,
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  Speaker 2: I think a big difference between DLC and New Deal
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  Speaker 2: is and you know, and we were joking before we
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  Speaker 2: came on that a lot of the New Deal leaders
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  Speaker 2: that we work with that are you know, their twenties
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  Speaker 2: or thirties might not even know what the DLC is.
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  Speaker 2: So this is not, you know, some kind of veiled
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  Speaker 2: new new DLC. But it does see our characters.
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  Speaker 1: When the we know, when the when the website Daily
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  Speaker 1: Coast first came up and running, I think their north
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  Speaker 1: star was outing anybody that had ever been a member
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  Speaker 1: of the DLC and ostracizing them from the Democratic core.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's right. I think that that's right.
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  Speaker 2: And the thing I love about the New Deal leaders
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  Speaker 2: that we work with, they don't always like they have
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  Speaker 2: to choose. You kind of made that insinuated that we
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  Speaker 2: were talking about governors. You know, they they don't feel
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  Speaker 2: like we do in Washington sometimes that we have to
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  Speaker 2: loudly declare ourselves which part of the party we're on.
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  Speaker 2: They can build these kind of broad coalitions. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: the other thing that I would just say it is
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  Speaker 2: very unique about Deal and is kind of our north star,
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  Speaker 2: is that we go out and choose elect officials to
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  Speaker 2: be part of a New Deal. So we have we're
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  Speaker 2: very picky about twenty percent acceptance rate of people who
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  Speaker 2: are nominated and then join, and we're looking for really
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  Speaker 2: the most exceptional, pragmatic, effective, and rising state and local
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  Speaker 2: elective officials. And we feel like our job is to
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  Speaker 2: help them govern effectively because of why I said, because
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  Speaker 2: we think that that is actually the best politics. If
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  Speaker 2: you govern well, you'll rise up the ranks and change
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  Speaker 2: the trajectory of our party in our country. But also
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  Speaker 2: that we give them a platform. I feel like if
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  Speaker 2: New Deal leaders were speaking for the Democratic Party, there'd
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  Speaker 2: be a lot of people who currently are like, I'm
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  Speaker 2: not sure that's my Democratic Party, who'd say, but wait
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  Speaker 2: that sounds right, That doesn't sound crazy. I feel like
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  Speaker 2: that that person speaking to me. So we try to
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  Speaker 2: do both things. Help them govern and then give them
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  Speaker 2: a platform for their voices.
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  Speaker 1: So you're not incubating people to run for office. You're
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  Speaker 1: trying to find them after they've been elected.
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  Speaker 2: Correct, which is a really unique space for us. There's
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people who are focused on elections, which
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  Speaker 2: is super important and the campaign side of things. We
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  Speaker 2: work on the governing side of the House. And my
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  Speaker 2: thought again, I think that our kind of DNA is
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  Speaker 2: that if we pick people who can govern well when
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  Speaker 2: they are city council and then go to mayor and
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  Speaker 2: then go to governor, that this pipeline will serve us well.
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  Speaker 2: And it's worked. We've been doing this for fifteen years.
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  Speaker 2: We have now three governors Josh Shapiro, Josh Stein, and
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  Speaker 2: Matt Meyer who were New Deal leaders, Pete Boodh Judge
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  Speaker 2: obviously probably the most famous New Deal lum. And nineteen
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  Speaker 2: members of Congress who started out as city council members
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  Speaker 2: or state legislators who are now three in the US
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  Speaker 2: Senate and sixteen in the US House. So the pipeline
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  Speaker 2: over fifteen years has really shown itself to be to
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  Speaker 2: be vibrant and important, and I would say that, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the other thing is we're not out there trying to
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  Speaker 2: just to tell them what they should do. I think
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  Speaker 2: a lot of you know, the two things. One is
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  Speaker 2: people are looking at elections kind of think that we'll
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  Speaker 2: just elect the right people and then that will be it.
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  Speaker 2: And to me, it's like that's just people run for office.
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  Speaker 2: They can do something. So who's there to help them
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  Speaker 2: once they get into office, to share and spread good
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  Speaker 2: ideas to have those kind of skill development things they need.
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  Speaker 2: So we would never do that with the CEO. And
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  Speaker 2: these are the most These are people who are affecting
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  Speaker 2: our daily lives, probably more than the average CEO. So
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  Speaker 2: who's helping them once they get elected? And then secondly,
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  Speaker 2: you know this this idea that that again is they're
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  Speaker 2: rising up the ranks that will change kind of the
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  Speaker 2: whole brand of Democratic Party and we think that that's
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: really important.
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  Speaker 1: Well, this gets it to look, this is a fight
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  Speaker 1: for control of the brand. It feels like as much
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  Speaker 1: as anything right and the fact of the matter, and look,
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  Speaker 1: I we began our discussion offline. The Pew Center put
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: out it's semi annual. They've done this nine times and
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: forty years, so I guess they did it about every
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: three or four years. A typology report trying to cut
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: basically saying, hey, Americans don't fit easily into two categories.
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  Speaker 1: They actually fit into like mine, right, And here's what
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: your challenge is from the place you come from. And
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I think where you're where those that are more empathetic
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: and sympathetic to what you're preaching come from, is that
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  Speaker 1: by nature, it's not a loud part of the Democratic coalition.
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  Speaker 1: And in fact, when you know I always say that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I prefer moderate and temperament. That doesn't mean
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: I prefer that in my ideological politics, but I think
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  Speaker 1: we confuse moderation sometimes between temperament and compromise. And the
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: loudest voices online and the dominant conversation in the left
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and the right is dominated by those that are online,
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  Speaker 1: And according to Pew, the two groups that are the
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: most online are these two loud bases. It's basically MAGA
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: and the progressives, and they're super wired. They're dictating the
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  Speaker 1: conversation and it's drowning out what is a majority of
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: everybody else. You know, if they're in the fifteen yard lines.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody else is somewhere in the middle, and they don't
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  Speaker 1: like the loudness, but they can't break through. Yeah, can
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: you break Can you be a radical moderate? Can you
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: be a PT Barnum and moderate? Right?
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I like that. Actually we want to be the
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: PT Barnum moderates. Yeah, I do. We have to be right.
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  Speaker 2: I would say two things. One, I completely agree with
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  Speaker 2: you that I think that. I guess nothing frustrates me
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: more than this idea that if you are pragmatic or
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: you know, results oriented, you're somehow mushy the mushy middle constant.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Mark Alexander complains about this at his memoir and he goes,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: just because I talk with the other side doesn't mean
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not conservative anymore. Like this, like this, this is my
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: belief system. I just know how the god starred organization works.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: No, exactly right. And I see on the Democratic side
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: right now, you know, we hear this a lot, right
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: that you know what do democrats want? They want a fighter?
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: And I just absolutely reject the notion that fighting equal
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: only yelling louder I just like reject that notion, like what.
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  Speaker 1: You know shows it. It is one of those. I
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: don't know how people simultaneously say they want a fighter
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: who compromises, right exactly, I.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Want a fighter, and I get I want people I
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: by eighty percent want to you know, pizza work.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the voters don't know everything that they.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Want, Zante. But I think that, I mean, I think
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: what they want are people who are fighting for them,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: right and so, and that is a little bit different
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: than just fighting for fighting's sake. But the other point
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make on your point about the online thing,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I always get surprised when I'm reminded, like
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: the percentage of Democratic primary voters. I think I saw
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: something from Third Way recently that post online daily or
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: weekly is something crazy. I don't quote me, but twenty
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: percent of you know, Democratic primary voters or online daili
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: er or.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Post eighty of the left wing content exactly.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: And this is the problem, right, So to try to
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: remind candidates to try and write elect officials, to write
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: and try and write voter that those people who are
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: allowed us do not you know, I just do not
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: speak for the majority of people. And it's it's a
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: problem not just for our brand, and which I agree
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: with but it's also a problem for our politics. I
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: mean basically, like people are just tuning out and they
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: you know, there's also something recently about you know, I
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: think it was the New York Times about you know,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: are you, over the last five or ten years more
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: likely or less likely to say something out loud, you know,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: if you're a moderate or a liberal, And liberals have
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: gotten more involved in and moderates are feeling less, you know,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: like they want to stick their head out because everyfoid's
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: going to get whacked off. And so, you know, that's
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: that's a challenge again, not just for the brand, but
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: for our politics. I mean, what in what other area
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: of our life do we not do we have to
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: always agree with people? Right that you can you know,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: I mean that's not true with my husband, that's not
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: true with my kids, that's not true my coworkers. So
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: I think we've got to get to a different politics
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: where we can have those forums, where you can have
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: the model people disagreeing and kind of a you know,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: are more civil and you know, constructive way.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think we we all know this,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: we all say we want this, and yet when given
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the opportunity, we don't take it well.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Is that true or is it that? And I'd be curious, yeah,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: to know what you mean by that sentence. But I
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: also feel like it's also probably worth noting that it's
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: not just online that I feel like these comfort this
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: is happening. I think this is also spilled out not
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, the media plays in a hugely important role,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: but is very much like with the clicks needed that
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: it's easier to get the extremes fighting on TV, so
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: it's kind of everywhere. It's not just all this.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: This gets it to the incentive structures, right, And that's
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and this to me is another challenge for someone in
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: your situation. And I you know, full disclosure, I'm trying
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: to help some folks who are trying to break through
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: who are not a member of either party. We're trying
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: to see if there's a voice for for sort of like,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: are you tired of this partisanship? Can't we get pragmatic solutions?
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, the hard part of it is
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: is that the system rewards sort of outlandish the system
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: rewards I mean, in some ways, the more you're the
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: main character of a story, it doesn't matter whether you're
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: the villain, or the hero.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: If you're the main character, your brand equity is going
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: to go up. I mean, we can kind of a
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: long debate. This grand Platiner situation is the most fascinating
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: social experiment. As far as I'm concerned that.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: The exactly description we're going with, Okay, well.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go with that. As far as the
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: left is the Democrats are concerned, I think, yeah, Look,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: my greatest fear of a second Trump term was that
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: it was going to change the left more than it
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: was going to change the right. And I do think
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: we've seen this already and that the whole if you
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: can't beat them, join them. And I hear progressives all
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the time going I want my own Trump. I want
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: to be able to run rough shot through the executive
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: branch the way he has. And it's sort of like, well,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, I thought you guys were the party
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: of institutions and already of this. And I have a
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: feeling that are we in the middle of a realignment
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: where the institutionalists are going to be between the center
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: left and the center right. Because what you described about
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: your frustration with what's happening on the democratic side is
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: almost identical to what Paul Ryan would tell you is
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: happening in the right, yeah, which is these loud voices
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: are over consuming and those that are in the sort
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: of Romney right are sometimes afraid to speak out. They'll
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: get their head cut off. You know. All of everything
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: you said could apply easily to this group. And some
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: people on the left thing, Yeah, it's those spineless people.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And so those on the right say the same thing
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: about the center left ends, and you're like, try living
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: in that space and then tell me what kind of
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: how spineless they are?
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no issue, Yeah, no, well, look, and I do
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: think you're absolutely right, of course, and the incentive structure
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: and this idea that you know, really the goal is
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: to build a brand for yourself, you know, is a problem.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I think it's more true at the federal level to
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: you know, the state and local elect officials that I
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: work with, I mean, I have I'm lucky. I probably
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: people ask me all the time, like why do you
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: keep doing this? They probably ask you this too, like
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: why are you staying? I want to keep talking about this?
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Why do you stay in this fight? And the truth
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: is that I don't know that I would if I
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: had not, if I wasn't working with state and local
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: officials over the country who despite who are running not
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: like despite of what's happening, but because of what's happening.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: They see this as almost like a public service to
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: be in public life right now, to try to make
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: a difference, to try to deliver results. And so you know,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: your average mayor, you know, probably not you know, the
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: first person think people think of when they're online, right,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and so you know they're out there, really they're working
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: across the aisle. I mean, you know, we work with
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: the folks in Alaska who have a bipartisan bowling league. Still,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, there is there are such bright spots out
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: there about actually government working. And what's so my frustration
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: and my goal a lot of the time is how
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: do we, you know, bring those stories forward so that
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: we're not only hearing about you know, what we're talking
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: about at the federal level.
• 20:03
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  Speaker 1: vary and rates may vary. Well, I mean, well, let
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: me you know which is. Look, I would argue the
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: bases of hijacked political discourse. Yes, but at the same
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: time time, your folks can't win without their support, right,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: it's part of the coalition on the left, just like
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: just like on the right. You know, Todd Yung and
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: John Curtis can't win without the mega support. So you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: you find you're trying to find ways to get in
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: some ways the common ground is happening. The attempts are
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: happening more there than it is sort of between the
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: at the in the in the from the center left
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to the center right. And I don't it feels to
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: me that the Progresses aren't interested in a in a
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: coalition at the moment.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Well, and we're in primary season, so I think this
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: is heightened, right. I mean, let's be clear, you have
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: to win a lot more than the Democratic left to
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: win in the generals, right, So, you know, and.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: All the time, I say the Democrat, I said, you know,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: they're always complaining what looks like, you know, conservatives, And
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: I said, yeah, they have a bigger base. They need
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: fewer moderates to get to fitifty percent. Democrats need more
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: moderates to get to fifty percent. I'm sorry, it's a
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: mass issue, isn't anything. It is.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: We will to win like sixty five seventy percent of
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: moderates to win, right. And so there's no other way
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to say this except to say, I mean, I understand, again,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: we're in the primary fight and some of the you know,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and I also kind of reject that. You know, there's
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: been a little bit of a narrative that the left
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: is you know, dominating elections. And I'm not saying that
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: they're not doing well in a lot of places, but
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: I think it's been a mixed bag. I mean, I'm
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: here in California right Javier basera Tom Syer that one
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: conveniently gets left off the list when people talk about this.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: So I think it's actually been a mixed bag. But
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: you know, but what we are going to see is
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: in the general election how the different candidates do in
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: some of these tougher districts, because just what we said,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: the math does not work unless you can't just win
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: your left, you got to win into the center.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting that you do have. I mean,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: I did a sort of halfway mark point in the primaries.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: What if there's a distinction between Republican primary voters and
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Democratic primary voters this cycle is it does seem as
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: if the perception of electability still matters a little bit
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: more to the Democrats than it does the Republican rights,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: which are still they're still looking for disruptors, and they'll
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: they'll give it if they think one can win, they'll
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: they'll gravitate. If they don't think they win, they won't
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: do it, like we saw that with Lindsay Graham surviving. Yeah,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: they're looking for that versus it. I don't think the
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: left has gotten that nihilistic yet.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I think that's right, and I think a proof point
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: on that. I would even go back to the twenty
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: five elections right where you know, a lot of the
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: thing was about, you know, the New York mayor Mandai winning,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: But if you looked at Mundammi and Abigail Spamberger and
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Mikey Cheryl, they all ran on affordability. They all ran
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: incredibly a disciplined, disciplined race, unlike we did in twenty
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: four on the issues that I think matter most to
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: people in the cost of living specifically. Now, whether or
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: not I agree with everything that the New York mayors
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: thought that you know, thinks that the are the solutions
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: to that, I think that that is a kind of
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: a proof point to you, which is like, I think
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: people know that we have to build be at least
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: talking about abroad set of issues that most people care
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: about if we're going to win elections. And that's that's
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: a good thing.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about some substance here, because the other
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: thing that comes through in this typology report from Q
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: is that voters under fifty are the ones that want
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: more the most change. Right now, there's different ways they've
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: been cataloged in this, and I don't think but the
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: general sense is that those that would like to see
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: more disruption, more experimentation are younger, Right, it's older voters
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that are looking for the stability, looking for the civility, right,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: looking for the things that perhaps you and I kind
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: of miss about about our politics. Yeah, and I'm mindful
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: of that. Hey, you know, I'm you know, that's there's
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: a reason they call it over the hill, Right. I'd
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: like to think I just went over the hill, but
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: it's still I know, I'm on the other side of it. Yeah,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, can you can you Is there such
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: thing as pragmatic disruption?
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean, let's say, you know, let's talk about
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: one in particular. I'm livid that we let Trump have Doge. Now,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Doze was a disaster. Dose was a dose, was a
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: you know, a disguised for burning the house down and
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: not making government work. But you know, since we're talking age,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: we're both old enough to remember al Gore's Reinventing Government effort,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: which was squarely a democratic effort, which is to say,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: if we think government should work, we should make it
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: work better. It's not when it's not working, So Democrats,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: so you.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Know exactly that's right at the moment.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and so we should have we should have owned this.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: We should have come out and said, look, there are
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: you know, government is not delivering. How are we going
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: to you know, reform it. Let's make it smaller, let's
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: make it, you know, more effective. And yet we lost
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: that you know fight because we were not willing to
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: be disruptors. And so I think that's just one example,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: but I think democrats who believe in government actually like
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: have a bigger responsibility to be disruptors right now, because
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: we Republicans don't want government to work. It just self
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: reinforces the whole argument that is not working, right, And
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: so I think Democrats have this special responsibility to actually deliver.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And it's not just our politics. And we know this,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: but I mean this is right. This is hand in
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: glove with our democracy. This is I mean, you know,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: not a hand in glove with how people feel about
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: the next two andre and fifty years of America. So
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: if people do not have I'm not polynisious enough to
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: say that like we can you know, I don't want
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: to think we should go back. And I also think
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: that like restoring trust in government is a I believe that,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: but that's a little bit, you know, amorphis and what
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: does that mean? But I do think that there are
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: things that we can do to make people not feel
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: like government is actively working against them, even little things
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: every day. Why does it takes along on the phone.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Why why do I have to do another set of
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: doctor you know forms when I just did them. I mean,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: all those things. We've got to focus on those things.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Customer service. Treat the voters like their customers. Yes, these
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: the taxpayers like their customers.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they are to some extent.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Right they are. They are customers. They pay for it,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: that's right. They expect the services, and you know, it's funny.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm still to this day, you know, I'll
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: get really upset if my county doesn't you know, pick
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: up our trash or whatever like they're supposed to. And
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: then when they when you call and they do it
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: within a day, You're like, wow, that's pretty good. Like
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I'm always like, you know, that's I'm sure it's pain
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: in the pain and that took us to try to
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: figure out everybody that was missed and go out and
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: do it. But you know, it's a pretty high functioning
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: government in Arlington County and They kind of also know
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: that Arlington County has a bunch of super voters in it,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and if they do mess up, they will get like Housted,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: like it's one of those where it's responsive, not because
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: they should be, but because they actually know. Yeah, this
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: is half my constituents are lawyers. They'll somehow come after
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: me if I'd get this wrong.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Righteah, You'll see the grocery store line and remind them.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's so local. Yeah, it does like local
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: politics understands that it's a customer service, a type of
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: I think that we haven't figured out how to bring
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: that at a federal level.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but we have to.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: One hundred percent.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: We have to.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Every other company does every other like even those that
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: you know, I think customer service has never been worse
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: because they're trying to automate it. But why are they
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: trying to automate it Because they're trying to over time,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: they hope to be more service oriented to their customers.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: This is all this AI programming just doesn't work very
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: well yet.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: No, that's right, that's right, Yeah, that's right. And you know,
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I'm Mark Duncleman who wrote the terrific book Why Nothing Works.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: You probably know of it. Uh is a friend and
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you know, so to give Democrats the benefit of the
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: doubt on this, I think there are kind of two
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: competing instincts which sometimes come to a head, and we
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: have to, like I think, be thoughtful about this, which is,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: you know, we want to give everybody a voice in government,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: and then we also want government, you know, government to
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: do things. And so I do think that you know,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: you're seeing a lot. We're seeing that a lot around
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: the country where you know, here in California, getting rid
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: of some of our environmental laws that we keep making
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: it harder to build housing for example, That's happening in
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of places. I think Democrats are finally saying, actually,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: some of our processes where one person can hold things
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: up is maybe you know, might have been born from
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: a good instinct that everybody should get to say something,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: but it's actually really having long term impacts that are bad.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: And so I'm excited to see some of that change.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I'm also excited to see actually we have a task
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: force on an ai and where a lot of people
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: are thinking about guardrails and privacy, which are super important.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: We talked, we did a task force on where's AI
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: being used to make government work better and deliver better results.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: And there's some really cool stuff happening around the country.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: So there's I think that we can do this. I
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: have not given up yet.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Look, no, I mean and I actually, you know, I'm
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: always I always say I'm long term optimistic, short term pessimistic.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: And it's just like we will, you know, we always
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: eventually do the right thing, figure it out. We just
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: have to exhaust all the other ideas right before we
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: do it. But you know, it's funny about Democrats and rules.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: And this is going to sound over simplifying, but I
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: think there's something to this, which is, for the last
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: most of your adult lives, a majority of Democratic office
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: holders went to law school. Yeah yeah, a majority of
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Republican office holders owned a small business. Right.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: It's interesting.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: So and you and then folks wonder why one side
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: is will tell you there's too much regulation. On the
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: other side, we'll say, you know, you just don't understand
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: how the rules. People will just follow the set of rules.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: But I've often wondered if Democrats need to diversify who
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: their office holders are, the backgrounds of office holders, so
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: that you you sort of you know know what it's
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: like to meet a pay roll, know what it's like
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: to go through and have to have a state form,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: a local form, and a federal form in order to
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: have a license to serve booze or get a livery,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you know, have a truck, be able to like sit
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: outside your property and do deliveries or whatever it is.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: And I know that sounds, like I said, a little oversimplifying,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: But do you think there's something to that.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: No, I do think there's something to that. And I
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: also think so I think small business owners, you know,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: all kinds of different backgrounds. I've been heartened to see
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: how many more veterans are running as Democrats. I think
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: that that's an interesting kind of development, and that's.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Actually makes sense to me, and it actually should be
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: an easy marriage because veterans serve. You know, the most
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: egalitarian system we have in government is the military, That's right.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: And if the system doesn't work, nothing works in the military.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: So it's one of the places where a bureaucracy, if
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: it isn't doing something correct, it actually you know, people die. Yeah,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: so they you know, their systems just work a little
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: bit better.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: No, that's right, And I think that that's I mean,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: can I'm a Democratic, can only speak to Democratic Party
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: on this one, but I will say that I do
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: think that one of the things that unite a whole
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: lot of people that I work with across the country
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: is this sense of service. Is that public service is
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: a service. It's not a you know, a lot you know,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I have a podcast. We have a podcast called an
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Honorable Profession, which is really you know, Bobby Kennedy's idea
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: that government in public service is honorable. And we talk
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: a lot about what got people into office in the
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: first place, and a cross I mean, we've had three
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: hundred and something episodes. We've been this a long time,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: and so, you know, almost to a person, it was
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: a problem that needed to be solved, and they asked
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: a question whether it was you know, their father couldn't
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: get health care, whether the local park needed something, and
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: they figured out that, oh, the town council, the school board,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: whatever it was, is the person who does that. Okay,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: who should I talk to? Oh they're not really responding, well,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: you should run. And so, I mean, so many people
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: get into politics that way. And I think that, you know,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: I still believe that that's you know, I've been doing
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: this a long time, even this long time, Like, I
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: really believe that despite what everybody hears, and there's certainly
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: bad actors in any you know, profession, but the vast
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: majority of people got into politics. It's not glamorous when
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: you start. It is not money, It is a sacrifice.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: They wanted to change something, They wanted to make things better,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: and so I love people that are kind of come
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: from that, you know, that orientation.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I used to always say that ninety five percent of
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: the people that come to Washington came here for the
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: right reasons. You may not agree that the reason that
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: motivated them, but it was a but it was a
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: sort of a noble reason that you just described something
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: didn't want that's right, and they jumped in. And then
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: they get here and they realize. And then the other
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: thing I always like to say is that actually they
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: that four hundred and thirty five members of Congress kind
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: of agree about on eighty five percent of the job.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: It's the stuff that's just somewhere now used to be
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: five percent that it was ten. That's probably about fifteen
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: percent that's disagreed upon, yea more than ever, don't get
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: me wrong, which is why we can't pass simple budgets anymore.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: But that's the irony is that we're fighting over We're
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: fighting over a fifteen percent disagreement, not an eighty five
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: percent disagreement, which is why the public is in better
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: shape than we sometimes want to admit.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I agree that too. I agree that too. And it's
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: I mean this, look, this is a really weird time.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: This president is a very uniquely troubling, you know, uh,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: norm breaking and.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: I think we all think, and this is my concern,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: we all assume, Okay, this can't get worse after he
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: leaves type of thing. Yeah, but you can't just assume that.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: You can't just can't just smoke the hopium.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's right.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to. I choose to look at Trump
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: as an MRI I for what's not what every loophole
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: that certainly, oh that's an that was a norm. We
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: got to codify that. That's right. We have to at
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: a constitual amendment or two on pardons. Maybe that doesn't
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: work it out, it's just fine, like instead of lamenting,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: why don't people stand up for norms? We can we
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: can codify things.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. It feels a little bit to me,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: like we're at the you know, turn the last century
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: or something where there's like there's just needs to be
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: some big scale reforms right on whether and we haven't
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: updated our democracy in a long time, right, I mean
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: whether I mean how we.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Vote you know, the Supreme Ironically, we've only done it
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: a handful of times. We've had these periods right right
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: at the beginning or right right after the Civil War,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: essentially in the right before the Great Depression, yea, with
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: with the with the robber barons. We really haven't. I mean,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: I would argue we really haven't done a substantive addition
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: to the constitution since before World War Two. Now, some
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: will say twenty second Amendment, which was a political reform
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: that actually, in hindsight might be a mistake. Yes, twenty
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: fifth Amendment was actually something that was really smart and
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: was a necessity, that was a loophole and it was
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: that actually was and then eight and then lowering the
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: voting age eighteen certainly isn't insignificant on that front. But
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: we've not had a something more substantive, right, Yeah, that's right,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: since that's right, you know, direct election of senators and
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: adding in dumb tax, and it feels like.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Two hundred and fifty that the anniversary is a decent
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: time to talk about this, right, I mean, it's really
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: it's a nice time to take stock. I mean, you know,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: we won't do it this year. We won't do it
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: probably till twenty eight, you know, at least, But I
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: do think that this is the conversation that needs to happen.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: And that's the frustration of where we are right now
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: is that I think a lot of people could probably
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: agree with that, but everything has become so partisan and
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: so divisive, and we're just going to need a leader
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: who talks differently and who's willing to be different and
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: who's willing to say, you know, I mean, can you
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: imagine in our lifetime having a president that basically says
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not president of the states that didn't vote for me.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Like it's actually insane, it's literally insane.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, every bit of behavior. And that's what
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I know frustrates those on the left. Literally, if Barack
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Obama had ever behaved ten percent like Donald Trump's behaved,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: the impeachment proceedings, you know, would probably would have ended successfully, of.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Course, absolutely absolutely, And so it's going to take. I mean,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: one thing I worry about is you know what happens
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: when we get you know, I think we're gonna have
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: a great twenty six. I think there's just Democrats are
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: gonna have a good twenty six. You know. I think
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: that we're gonna have to show I don't think that.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I hope we don't take the wrong lessons from that
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: that you know that people like guess I think they're
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: just gonna say that they're really Yeah, they're really mad.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I think that's gonna be a lot of the conversation. Well,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: well maybe we can have that conversation after the elections.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: But we're gonna you know, we're gonna need to actually
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: decide and tell people what we stand for as a party,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: not that just we're anti Trump. Well, it's gonna be really.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Important get Democrats win the House of the Senate. How
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: do you govern for two years with Donald Trump? That's right,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I meant to do try to get rid of them.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I think you have to do it. Yeah, I think
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: you have to do it.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: I'm more I don't know. I mean, I look, it
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: is a hard one. It's that's where I come from too.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, I get the instinct, And I mean, and
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I also think accountability is important. So this is a
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: little bit of a bush poll like, right, but I
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: do think that like going on our own retribution tour
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: It's already been tried. It's a mistake. Yes, what New
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: York and Atlanta did absolutely, I don't believe they were
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: intentional about it. But nothing fueled Donald Trump's come back
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: more than the decisions in New York City and Atlanta.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And yeah, those were so basically point to something saying
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: that see, see they're coming after me. Yeah, And I
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: think that that's we have to you know. And even
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: if look, if we start passing things and and he
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: vetoes them one after the other, that's okay, that's you know,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: that's I mean, it's not great obviously, but you know,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: we at least it gets the ball rolling in the
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: right direction and shows people what Democrats would do if
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: they had, you know, somebody in the White House as well.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: So I think that's we have to focus on that.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: What do you say to the progressive activist who's been
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: in this for a long time too and says, you know,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: and I do sense this from the progressive movement is
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: it's very similar to how the conservatives who were tired
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: of compromising and you know, supporting Mitt Romney, tired of
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: compromising supporting John McCain or George W. Bush, and the
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: progressives will say, you know, you know, we we we
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: got behind Bill Clinton, we got behind Barack Obama, we
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: got behind Hillary Clinton. But none of them were really
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: you know, of us Obama the closer, but even that
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: was you know, he certainly governed more like Bill Clinton
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: than FDR. I think, and don't they have a point.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: They've never really been in charge of the party, even
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: though they get it, even though their Braind's been in
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: charge of the party for the last twenty years.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess I think two things. One is,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: let's go back to the math we were doing at
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the beginning of the the show, which is that's you
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: know that that kind of Democrat is not going to
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: win a national election, just as the math doesn't work.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: So I think that that's A and B. I mean,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: my frustration actually speaking of like a Hillary Clinton. I
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: think there were people not I mean, and I think
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: you know, you were talking about the Pew thing. There's
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of things here, so we're talking about progressive.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I don't anyone who calls themselves progressive is not somehow
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: in an affra to the center left right, I think
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of room here for a big tent.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: But I do think there were some people in the
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: far far left who were like, you know, we both
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: heard it. You know, Killer's Clinton, Donald Trump. There's no difference.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Oh really Dobb's decision Supreme Court. You know, Like, like
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: I think if we go back in history, we will
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: see that there was a very big distinction between Clinton
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: and Donald Trump. So I think that, you know, I mean,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: it sounds kind of goofy, but it's true, Like that
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: was a conversation was happening. What's the difference? And so
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I think that's what I say to progressives. It's like, hey,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: we got to win. And actually there's more that unites
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: the left, you know, center left to left in terms
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: of our values and what we want to see accomplished
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: and equal opportunity for all people and all these things.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: And I think we all can agree on that. You know,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: if we can't come together to fight what is by
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: far the greatest threat in our lifetimes, if not in
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: the country's lifetime, to our Democrats into the Constitution all
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: kinds of things. Then what are we doing.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the S word, because I think
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: that is I think it's enormously damaging to the Democratic
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Party's brand. I will confess that I grew up, born
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: and raised in Miami, so I am more acute, I
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: am more more in tune to how the word socialism
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: is viewed by some. You know, if you, if you
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: grew up in the Sunbell, you understand that a lot
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: of your friends and neighbors hear the word socialism and
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: think authoritarianism. If you grew up in the Midwest or
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: in New England, that is not your experience. And so
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I do think, frankly that a guy like Bernie Sanders
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't fully understand or AOC doesn't understand the South Florida experience.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: But it, frankly, it's true in Texas, it's true in Arizona.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: And yet I look at this typology report and the
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: progressive left seventy percent would prefer Democratic socialist candidates. And
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: we're seeing a huge movement. Mom. Donnie is essentially trying
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: to purge New York City Congressional delegation of anybody that
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: isn't at least sympathetic to the DSA. Is that a
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: can the new Dems, Can the center left Dems get
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: behind a DSA nominee? If that's what happens, I can.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Help us out what happens start there. I mean, I also,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: but think about from Donnie in particular, like right, he
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: how he's governing, I would argue, thus far is a
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: far cry from some of the things he said he
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: was going to do early on right, So he's finding
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: out the constraints. He's finding out the constraints. But I
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: think that that's an important conversation because I think that
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I actually do not say I'm looking forward to digging
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: into that the Key report, and you know, I do
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: not think. I mean, I know for a fact that
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: the majority of Americans would not call themselves socialists.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: That's me, no, no, no, no, I'm just talking about it.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: It's one faction. Yeah, it's literally it's a majority of
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: this progressive faction that is less loyal to the Democratic Party. Yeah,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: in general at a little more sour on it than say,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: you're mainstream liberals, yeah, or almost identical to the to
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: the progressive left, except on things like socialism.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess I'd be really curious to kind
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: of do a couple more questions on to your kind
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: of point, What do you think that means? I mean,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: what it means is I want government to do a
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: better job of taking care of me, which is really
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: what it might mean. Yeah, just wrong, why you're safety that.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: And maybe they don't even know what they think that,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Maybe they don't have a policy agenda attached to that.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe they just think, you know, I've been this rugged
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: individualism idea, you know, is leaving too many people behind.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: And I would say, you know, the income inequality is
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: out of control. Both things can be true, that that
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: can be true, and we need a politics and a
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: policy agenda that addresses those concerns, you know. I mean,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: I was at something the other day. We're talking about government,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: government run healthcare, right and so right, there are a
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: lot of the left right Medicare for all, whatever it is.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: Then you get to the paragraph in the bill about
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: single payer health care and who runs healthcare HHS RFK junior?
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: You want RFK Junior running your Is that really what
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: you mean when you say government health care? So I
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: think I would like, I think that there's something in there.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: That's probably important for Democrats to understand about people's sense
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: of urgency about the problems. But I'm not sure that
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: actually the solutions. Like if you if you said that
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: to a lot of our left friends, they probably would go, oh, well,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: that's not what I mean. You know.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: No, look, I've I've heard you know. What I want
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: to tell my progressive is just drop the S word.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Just trust me. Of course, you cannot rebrand it.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: It's never going it's.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Not going to happen because the way the word was
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: twisted and abused in Latin America. It just is what
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: it is. And we are in the America's hemisphere. You know,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: this is so these are lived experiences for people that
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: either live here or or related to people.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and generational experiences people are not this is not Yeah, No,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: I absolutely agree. And again like maybe if we can
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: have a conversation that gets beyond labels. Ever, Yeah, you
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: sit down with people and say, okay, I'm gonna you
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: know what, let me let's just take that off the table.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Tell me what you mean by that actually, and I'll
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: tell you what I mean by you know a more
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: you know, a healthcare system that is absolutely about you know,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: universal health care, but doesn't you know, require big government
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: health care. Maybe we're closer than we think.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Well, but let me throw something else at I don't
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: feel like that there are folks in the the in
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: the center left category that are that are And I
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: think it goes to this, this concern about sort of
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: they don't want to debate the progressive left publicly. Yeah,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: and I understand politically why, but it's why it appears
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: they're losing the argument and why some people think, oh,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: a majority of Democrats are socialists because the center left
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: never speaks up.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think that that's fair, and I think
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: that people to your point, I mean, I think and
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I disagree with that that being the right approach. I
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: think you've got to speak up. And as hard as
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: it is to sometimes tell our friends that we don't agree.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Another thing that I've been concerned about recently, we've seen
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: it with some of our leaders around the country this uh,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: you know, the non the term that we're not supposed
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: to use because it's not a real world you know,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: real common sense words. But it's intersectionality, right, which is
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: this idea that people on the left have adopted each
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: other's causes, so you'll get a questionnaire. For example, this
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: was actually a true example in Arizona, where we had
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: a legislator, you know, being asked by a planned parenthood
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: local planned Parenthood of who I'm entirely supportive was on
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: my local plant parenthood board, but asking them about defund police.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Why would that be on a planned Parenthood board?
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: So I do think that there's also this kind of
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: not only do we have to.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Speak you know, the interest creed, the leadership of the
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: key interest groups on the left are all much further
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: to the left ideologically than those folks that ran those
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: organizations twenty years ago.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: I think that that's right, and I think that that's
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: you know, and I think we would tell candidates, you know,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: we don't do elections, but if I was talking to
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: some of our new dealers for running, I would say
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't answer a question that comes from an organization.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Nobody answers questionnaires. The most consultants give. Don't do it.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Don't do it.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I want to be I mean, how do you prevent
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: the Kamala Harris ad from happening? Right? Did they ad?
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: That's right?
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Just don't you know? She answered some questionnaire. Frankly, pretty honestly,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I think every every rational dem leaning person might have
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: answered the question the same way. Well, if you're just
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: if you're already doing this and we're incarcerating them, you know,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: like I understand, like she's not crazy to have come
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: up with the answer she came up with. But it's like, right,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: who was asking about a one percent issue?
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: Like, by the way, right on our side of the.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Aisle, right on, So we talk about the one percent
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: all the time when it comes to economic power. Yeah,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: but the but I would argue, and this is true
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: on the right too, that these interest groups on the
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: left and right that have such that try to be
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: the gatekeepers of who gets to run for office, they
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: are one percenters. They're notally one percenters, but they're obsessed
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: with a one percent issue. That literally I had the
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: mayor of Oklahoma City on earlier this week. He's they
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: hadn't aired yet. Yeah, he gave a speech about the
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: importance of pluralism. And he's a he's a friend, and
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: I just loved it. I was glad he did it.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: It's an unusual thing that's about Yeah, and he was
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: lamenting he's a Republican elected mayor of Oklahoma City. But
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: it's a non partisan election, which means you get to
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: be normal. Yeah, And as he said, he goes, let
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: me tell you what the biggest issues are in the
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: state of Oklahoma. And he says, they're the same issues
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: that everybody else. Is the only one cost of living,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: gas prices, et cetera, et cetera. Because and you know
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: what the Republican primary for governors about, he goes, It's
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: about trans kids, and it's about deporte. It's about all
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: these things that have nothing to do with the three
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: or four issues that the rest of the voters care about.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: But these interest groups and the and the and and
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: we know that they some of them want to be kingmakers,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: and primaries are sort of demanding this conversation. And the
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: most frequent primary voters are people that are in this world.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: No, it's a real yeah, it's a real problem thing.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: And I think that it's you know, often I think
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: it's not about winning an electability. It's about you know,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: going back and be able to show your donors that
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: you've got someone to say, yeah, you know, sign the pledge. Right,
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: It's not it's really which we've just got.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: The donors are are part of the problem here.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: I do think the donors are part of the problem.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: I think that that's changing. I'm hearing more an understanding
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: But I think that when the donors were the pragmatists,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: but now they've become, especially especially inherited wealth people. I
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: think like that second and third generation there, they all
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: got some crazy political beliefs that they can use their
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: money to amplify.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: I think that, Yeah, I think that a lot of
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: people have kind of you know, issues that are their
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: number one issue, and they just kind of, you know,
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: sometimes lose the force for the trees to be honest, right,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's I think that is a
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: problem within the Democratic Party. I mean I also I
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: think that to your point, I think that also some
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: of the some of the groups too, like they're thinking
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: about labor in particular. I think that's been an interesting
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: you know evolution for labor where you know, for so
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: long it was part of the Democratic you know coalition,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: and it still is a very important part of the coalition.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: But you know, there's been studies that show that some
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: of the labor union leaders like are you know not
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: you know, some of the rank and file members were
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: starting to vote Republican right and so, and you know,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: so I think that there's I think that those conversations
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: about kind of who people speak for and what do
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: actually real people think on the ground is actually a
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: really healthy I mean, some crist need to do a
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: lot more listening. Generally, I tend to think that we
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: try to short circuit listening.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Some All right, let me let me land the plane
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: this way. So if you're an elected city council member,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: what is it that you can provide me as I'm
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, I want to I'm enjoying my work,
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: I want to be more effective and I might want
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: to try another office. What is it that you're going
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: to be able to What are the resources that you're providing,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: said person.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I put them in three kind of big buckets.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: One is idea sharing with other elect officials around the
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: country things that are working in one community that we've
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: seen spread across communities. People come to our conference and
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: they bring a notebook and they say, I'm going and
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: call myself from here.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: How often do you guys?
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: We do a couple of times. We meet all together
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: twice a year, but we also have ongoing working groups
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: and virtual events throughout the year, which just did a
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: really important one. I thought on ice enforcement in the
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: cities and had a real interesting conversation with mayors about
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: you know, cars that are leading being left behind on
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: streets and what to do with them, and I think
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: that could be a whole conversation. But so yeah, just
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: that kind of the tactics of governing right and learning
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: from each other. Secondly, as we do a lot of
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: skill development increasingly for our conversation on communications and how
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: do you break through, We've got some leaders who are
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: doing a really great job. If people haven't don't know
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Kayla Young from West Virginia, tattooed granddaughter of a coal
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: miner who helped lead the reversal de band nuclear energy
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: in her state. Fascinating woman. Is a great on social media,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: doing a lot of direct to camera and explaining how
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: government works. So she's done a lot of teaching our
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: other leaders how to do that. So a lot of
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: digital and authentic communications training, how to make sure you're
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: authentic voice gets through. And then third is actually us
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: elevating what they're doing, so getting them on podcast, getting
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: them out there in front of media. We have our
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: own sub stack road map. It's called Strategy Solutions from
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Outside the Beltway and a podcast as I mentioned at
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: Audible Profession So but trying to just get their voices
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: out there. However, we can to show that there are
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: Democrats who are really focused on results and getting things done,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: because I think again as we started, that's going to
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: be the brand of the Democratic Party that is going
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: to be the most successful.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Look, I think, I mean it makes a lot of sense.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: At some point this pendulum is going to swing, right.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: We know this that we're going to go from the
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: what you know, sort of what we've been doing to
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: something a bit more functional. But you know, it's one
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: of those I don't know, do you think this is
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: a leadership problem? You think it is. It is a
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: does the next successful Democratic president happen because they have
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: figured out how to navigate the center left and the
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: progressive left.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's a leadership problem. I think that
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: the Democratic talent out there from the top to you know,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: the amazing number of people we're going to be watching
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: actually run for president, we have a lot of really
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: good options. Actually, And then if you think about the
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: work I do all the way down to city councils
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: and school boards. I don't we have tons of talent.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: I think it's a It's almost what the work we
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: do is almost like helping people, yes, government effectively, but
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: also have permission to step outside this kind of crazy
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: structure that they're governing in and to be able to say,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: you know, we get a lot of calls A consultant
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: wants me to do this. I'm like, don't, what is it?
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: How does it feel to you? Don't do it? Do
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: what feels right to you. So I think it's a
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: little bit of just like breaking the frame and breaking
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: the mold, you know. And I say, you know again,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: I just fundamentally believe that most of us want to
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: see a politics that works, you know, a government that's
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: in government leaders that are inspiring and of character. And
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: so I think we just got to keep fighting for
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: that and not compromise on that.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm all for it. I mean, we need we need,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: you know, we need a way to I mean I
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: always say we invented politics to figure out how to
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: settle disputes without violence. That's right, We've got to learn
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: to practice politics again.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Let's stay in that lane, please.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: I know, because yeah, if we stop figuring this out,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: there's only one other alternative, and that's no fun. And
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: that's the majority of this planet. Majority of this planet
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: doesn't have what we have.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: Times we forget how lucky we are that we have
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: the process that we have.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: Please, that's comparative to so many other places that don't.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Civic education, national service. There's other ways
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: we can think about how to get people back engaged too.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: I would love to see us talk to talking about
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: all of those things.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's civic. One of the smartest things I got
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: was from a viewer who wrote in a question that
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: just speculated and I think they're under something that the
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: unintended consequence of no child left behind and of the
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: and of the testing trying to create metrics for our
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: education system is that we prioritize the metrics on reading
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: and arithmetic, as you might imagine, the one place we
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: did not have a test for with Civics. Yeah, and
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: so what happened all of a sudden, schools just stopped
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: prioritizing and the good teachers were essentially recruited to go
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: teach English and math and the stuff that mattered to
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: the test, which of course connected to dollars and bottom lines.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: And we had a and we then we have a
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: generation that doesn't know the constitution works.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: No, exactly. I think that's right, that's right. That's really interesting. Actually,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: I think that's as important as anything that we address. Actually,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: and I connected those thoughts. But that's interesting me either.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: And I've just been it was one of those you know,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: you're like the Angels music a right, Like you're like, yeah,
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: I said that, I might DA makes us and if
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: it's like if we can revitalize creative and you know,
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: sometime between the age, because everybody when did you first
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: get into politics? When were sixteen? Correct? Yeah? Everybody I
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: know is always high school because you had the Civics teacher,
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: you had this one whatever it was, and they're just
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: less and less of a priority. And I get why.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not irrational, right, that's right. You wonder
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: why we don't even understand if I have to that,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: I have to like do a glossary in order to
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: explain what pluralism means.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Right, No, exactly, we don't exactly. And if you're too
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: many people just my vote doesn't matter, you know, And
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: that may be true on the electoral college, but it
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: sure as heck matters for the person who won one
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: vote for mayor city council member, right, I mean, so
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: we just got to get people back to understand this
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: is this is a with rights come responsibilities, and voting
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: and engagement is.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: One of those. You know, we always can learn from
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: spider Man. It sounded like sider Man quote, Hey, Debbie,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: this was great. I appreciate it.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: Really fun great to be see it. Thanks so much.
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: M h m hm