Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / The Super CMO Show - Sukumar Muthya (#005)

Transcript

The Super CMO Show - Sukumar Muthya (#005) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

0:00
SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, the next level of transformation is you know, think of Google as simple as that, right?
0:07
SPEAKER_00: So Google, you can just go to Google, it's back at the back end of Google is your entire internet, right?
0:14
SPEAKER_00: So why can't we do the same thing at an enterprise level, right?
0:19
SPEAKER_00: So you go to an enterprise, you are let's say a proctor and gamble, right?
0:23
SPEAKER_00: So if I am the you know the C-suite in Procter and Gamble sitting there, I should be able to search with a small Google search type of thing and say, what is my you know marketing spend today?
0:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, where are the challenges in the world within Proctor and Gamble facilities?
0:41
SPEAKER_00: Where are the rejects happening on the parts that I'm shipping to, you know, on the products that I'm shipping to different locations?
0:48
SPEAKER_00: So I should be able to just do that search and then figure out or get all the answers, right?
0:53
SPEAKER_00: So it's it should be that simple.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where you know uh the next level of digital transformation is going to take place.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Hi Sukumar, thanks a lot for joining in and uh lovely to have a conversation with you.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, Swami.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: It's indeed um an honor and a pleasure to be here with you.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Sukumar.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh Sukumar, let me first get into what specifically uh you know the world of marketing as you see it uh when you started to where it is today.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: How is it transformed and uh what are the key trends that you are seeing in terms of the changes that are happening in the environment?
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's um it's marketing is uh you know, I tell people marketing is one field in the enterprise where um you know they embrace the technology faster than any other fields in the enterprises, right?
2:03
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, because this is this is the one that's actually driving the top line for the companies.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they have to do, you know, they will invest in that area and they will try to um innovate in that area and they will try to try to embrace as much as possible.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: So that's why if you uh if you see marketing, you know, way back, you know, basically marketing and sales were kind of you know going hand in hand together, right?
2:33
SPEAKER_00: So marketing is their primary job is to generate leads, right?
2:37
SPEAKER_00: So hey, we are selling this goods and services as a company.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So now how is this going to benefit you know who I am selling this to?
2:46
SPEAKER_00: So who are the audience that I'm gonna actually go and sell this to?
2:50
SPEAKER_00: And then um, you know, how do I attract them and what what are the benefits of using my products and services, right?
2:57
SPEAKER_00: So it started off that way, and then it was like, hey, I'm making this product, so let's go and sell this whoever wants to buy, right?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: So it was like a one size fits all.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Let's take this product, sell it to everybody, um, convey our message, you know.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: So it started off with really, you know, like mass communication, right?
3:17
SPEAKER_00: So you look at all the media, mass media type of thing, right?
3:20
SPEAKER_00: So advertising newspapers.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, in fact, uh, you know, in just to give you a little bit of backstory, the company I'm working for is Ancira.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, we are actually a hundred-year-old company, you know, it started in 1919.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, primarily, you know, when the company was started, it was all about you know the advertisements were placed in the newspapers, and then uh the company was trying to go and say, hey, it this ad is actually placed in the newspaper, and uh you know it's complying with all the standards, right?
3:55
SPEAKER_00: So it started off that way, right?
3:57
SPEAKER_00: So making sure that when they say an ad is placed, an ad is placed in the newspaper, and then later on they improvised on that and said, Hey, you know, I'm gonna go to the competition and say if an automotive company is placing an ad, I'm going to the competition and say, Hey, your competition is actually placing this ad, what are you doing about it, right?
4:16
SPEAKER_00: So then it started improvising its mass communication, right?
4:20
SPEAKER_00: So it started with that, and then gradually, you know, with all this technology, the advent of technology and innovation and thinking uh drove to different levels of evolution within marketing, right?
4:35
SPEAKER_00: So, and then they started talking about no, I don't think this one size really fits all, right?
4:41
SPEAKER_00: So we need to figure out you know what is really applicable to specific set of audience in the market, right?
4:49
SPEAKER_00: So then they were like, okay, let's just try to understand you know what this product is and who is the suitable audience and targeted audience segment, um, that type of thing, right?
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So then it started with database marketing.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: So let's collect all this, you know, information about people who are interested in my product, or you know, then you know, people who called, people who uh went to the store and bought some things.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so then it started with you know collecting all that data, and then you're you know, people started doing like slicing and dicing the data.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now let's look at who are all the people who came in the last one week to see my product or services, right?
5:31
SPEAKER_00: So offering that for interested, and then you started getting the targeted segments.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: Now you say, hey, now I'm gonna do more targeted communication to them, which is suitable for them, so we can convert those people.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: So then it that thing got into really like personalization concept in marketing, right?
5:49
SPEAKER_00: So now where we are today, I mean, just to make the long story short, here from mass communication to the communication of one, right?
6:00
SPEAKER_00: So a segment of one.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: So every individual has to be communicated to exactly the needs of you know what they are looking for at the right timing, right?
6:11
SPEAKER_00: So for us to do that, you know, marketing has come up with you know the innovation of technology.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: There's so many different pieces of technology that will support today to do that, right?
6:23
SPEAKER_00: So that's what you know everyone is trying to do, right?
6:26
SPEAKER_00: So the utopia of today's marketing is really you know technology and you know, understanding customers to the micro segments we call them to the to the level of interest that they have at the specific time, and then I should target them to convert it, right?
6:44
SPEAKER_00: So if you look at uh you know a TikTok ad today, you know, TikTok will show a particular product or or a you know address or whatever it is, you know, the in the in that short video, but at the same time there is a a phone icon, so there's a call-in number, and then there is a you know email icon, so you can immediately hey, I like this dress, so you can immediately call and place an order for that, right?
7:09
SPEAKER_00: So that's how it has become so personalized to the core, right?
7:13
SPEAKER_00: So that's uh you know the the trend we are seeing is it's just technology is just proliferating and supporting uh varieties of thinking uh in terms of you know personalizing to the core.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: Great.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: So uh one thing that's always intrigued me, Sukumar, is uh how come somebody from technology, somebody like you, yeah, how did you walk into the world of marketing?
7:41
SPEAKER_02: Because that's a very rare movement, right?
7:44
SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, how did you get into the world of marketing?
7:48
SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's interesting, uh Swami.
7:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's uh you know, I'm in the marketing industry, but you know, supporting all this technology components.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: So obviously, you know, knowing the domain is very, very critical.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I started off in time you know way back in 1990s, mid-90s, uh, when I started the work, it was all in the supply chain side.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was doing a lot of you know enterprise backend, you know, forecasting, uh, fulfillment, um, transportation, logistics, warehouse management systems, those types of things.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: So essentially, if you look at what it really does is it helps in um in controlling the cost of an enterprise, right?
8:33
SPEAKER_00: So, which is if you look at from a business standpoint, so it is actually you know driving efficiencies and optimization to your bottom line, right?
8:43
SPEAKER_00: And then you know, I spent some about a decade uh working in supply chain technologies across various industries, um, and then I had an opportunity to look at you know, hey, marketing.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: So now marketing technology.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: So the the the individual that I was working with, uh, he moved to marketing.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: He's like, hey, there is this new concept called database marketing, what I was referring to earlier, right?
9:08
SPEAKER_00: So bringing all data into one place, one database that can give you an opportunity to slice and dice that data.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Hey, we have this new tool where we are doing this database marketing.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to come and help us um you know kind of grow that?
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, build partnerships with other companies and and drive the growth.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm like perfect, right?
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Because you know, so far I've been looking at the bottom line of enterprises, now I can start looking at the top line.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: So it was a great transition for me from an interest standpoint.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: Um and then um uh you know I I I made that switch to that area, and and thankfully at that point, this was in you know early 2000, right, 2004, 2005.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: That's when this marketing technology as a field was really picking up, right?
9:55
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, once you started that database marketing, then there is like, oh, how can I build intelligence to this?
10:01
SPEAKER_00: How how can I add statistics to that data, right?
10:04
SPEAKER_00: How can I build models?
10:06
SPEAKER_00: How can I build predictive models?
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Meaning, you know, these are all the people that bought these products, and what are the chances that they would buy a similar product tomorrow, right?
10:15
SPEAKER_00: So if you want to do that prediction, then there is statistical modeling that was involved, and then those things were kind of getting very popular at that time, and then my background is in statistics, and you know, I'd done my theses in artificial intelligence, neural networks, and then I was naturally attracted to that area.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: So that's how I got into marketing technology, and then from that point on, it was just you know, sky is the limit.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: I think the number of products in Martech is just growing, proliferating.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, if you see Scott Brinker's cheap Martech thing, right?
10:52
SPEAKER_00: So every year he announces new, you know, Loomescape, whatnot, um, which shows different marketing technologies.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: So, what started off as 150 technologies at one point, and today it is 10,000 uh products, right?
11:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, from that point on, I think it's it's every day is never a dull moment, right?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: So every day is challenging, every day is like you know, you you have an opportunity to learn new technology, you have an opportunity to work with customers who are facing different challenges in marketing, and that's what's keeping me going.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, so you actually are working in a field where uh a lot of creativity is involved, and you have this traditional agencies uh still uh you know doing the Super Bowl ads, right?
11:40
SPEAKER_02: So therefore, there's a lot of hype around the Super Bowl ads.
11:45
SPEAKER_02: And uh at the other end, uh, you know, you have an agency like yours or a company like yours is actually looking at technology which is really on the uh you know the left brain side of the marketing business.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh how do you see the role of the marketing department, the CMO?
12:05
SPEAKER_02: How are they managing this wide set of skills that are required?
12:10
SPEAKER_02: Because currently you're talking creativity, at the other end, here you're automating uh you know the brand communication using tech.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: So uh do you see uh you know companies ability to uh you know work together in an interconnected manner, or do you see still silos in the uh way clients really deliver the marketing today?
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, so that's actually um a fantastic question, Swami.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: So your question you know applies or brings about certain things, um, you know, how companies are working today, right?
12:50
SPEAKER_00: So it purely, purely depends on what is that you're selling, right?
12:56
SPEAKER_00: So you know if you're a if you're a B2C type of company, a retail company, then you're driving you know your sales through high volume, right?
13:06
SPEAKER_00: So the number of products that are there is so many different products, um, and then you're driving the revenue through a high volume sale, right?
13:16
SPEAKER_00: So that requires a completely different set of marketing.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: So then there is another set of you know products that the company may be selling, it's luxury goods and you know travel and um services and you know hospitality industry, right?
13:32
SPEAKER_00: So insurance.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: So these types of companies require different types of marketing.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: So some in those cases are actually in B2C, also in some cases, you can actually do like directly a brand marketing.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: So knowing you know what the brand stands for is another thing, and then knowing what you're selling in terms of products and services is another thing, right?
13:54
SPEAKER_00: So as a CMO, then what happens is you know, you need to figure out you know what is that we are going to focus on, you know, where are we in our life stage of the company, and then within that life stage, am I looking at you know doing the building the brand equity in the marketplace, right?
14:14
SPEAKER_00: So knowing, in other words, you know, am I going to be a household brand, or am I trying to sell more products and you know that I have product and services that I have, right?
14:25
SPEAKER_00: So that's where you know the different tactics of your marketing comes in play.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: So when you're looking at more brand equity building, sometimes it's a combination, it's a hybrid, right?
14:34
SPEAKER_00: So you could be a retail, you're selling a tons of you know, lots and lots of SKUs, uh, but at the same time you also want to build brand equity, right?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: So then you use this this what is called as a media mix modeling, right?
14:47
SPEAKER_00: So how much money I should spend in a Super Bowl ad in a on a TV commercial, right?
14:53
SPEAKER_00: So it's 30 seconds is like an insane amount there, and then how much money should I spend on digital marketing, right?
15:00
SPEAKER_00: And then how much money should I spend on this all this social media stuff?
15:03
SPEAKER_00: So, where are my customers?
15:05
SPEAKER_00: So, for you to understand that you know brand equity requires more of you know mass marketing, so that's where you need to go and look at you know the Super Bowl ads, buying media at a large level, uh you know, World Cup soccer, so on and so forth, right?
15:21
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, look at Inforces, for example, and they're you know, you see them all the time in Wimbledon, you see them potentially in World Cup soccer and all of that.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a brand building, uh, it's a brand equity building kind of thing.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: It's not like you know, nobody's gonna go and say, Oh, I saw an ad on um you know Wimbledon, and now I'm gonna go find out and and you know what services they offer, and I'm gonna outsource my digital marketing to Infosys.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: Nobody is thinking like that.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Oh, Infos is a great company, and so they learn, you know, they they get to know what that is, and then it can drive further, you know, connection.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: So building brand equity is one thing.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: So, from that standpoint, I think you know CMOs uh have to understand, you know, that's what is that, you know, how much money I'm gonna build or or put in different channels, right?
16:11
SPEAKER_00: So in in marketing, what we call that as a media mix modeling.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: So you need to take the total budget and you need to look at you know how much money is going for brand brand building, how much money is going for actual product and services sales, right?
16:25
SPEAKER_00: So, and then you figure out where your customers are, and then where you you potentially see the the best return on advertising spend, right?
16:34
SPEAKER_00: So they call ROAS.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's where you put your money there, right?
16:39
SPEAKER_00: So that's how I think you know CMOs are looking at you know how to how to spend money on what different channels depending on the ROI that's achieved in each one of these channels.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: So that makes it even more challenging for CMOs because they have to know now, you know, not just the just the maltech component of it, like marketing different pieces of marketing technology, but they also have to know you know advertising technology, right?
17:07
SPEAKER_00: So ad tech, right?
17:08
SPEAKER_00: So now you look at not just the mass piece on the TV and um um you know TV and other commercials, OTT and so on and so forth, but now they are they also have to look at different digital media, right?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: So you know, out-of-home billboards or uh on your different channels, web channels, um, so those types of things.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: So the ad tech piece also comes into picture.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: So at least you know, for CMOs, being aware of those types of things is very, very important, but nobody expects that CMOs to be technologists, right?
17:45
SPEAKER_00: So that's where this new emerging role of chief marketing technologist is becoming quite popular uh these days because that's CMT, chief marketing technologies reporting to a CMO uh because they are the ones driving the technological component and CMOs are driving the the strategic components of marketing, right?
18:05
SPEAKER_00: So that's how things are things are shaping um today, and more and more progressive companies uh that have a larger spend on marketing, uh they are looking at it that way.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: So, how uh how is the uh handshake between a uh chief marketing technologist and a CMO?
18:26
SPEAKER_02: So, how does it work?
18:27
SPEAKER_02: Because you obviously work in one of the most advanced markets in the world, right?
18:32
SPEAKER_02: Uh therefore it's an extremely mature market, ad tech is at a very, very different level of maturity, you've got Martech at a different level of maturity, you've got digital marketing at a different level of maturity, you've got mass media at a different level of maturity.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: So, how do these uh you know uh different specializations, how do they handte and how does it work today?
18:57
SPEAKER_02: So, can you give me an example of how this is being done today and what are the best practices that one needs to look at if you need to bring all of them together?
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um interesting.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: So, I'm trying to think what's the best uh story to tell you.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Um so let's let's look at uh let's look at uh a company that is um that is in a restaurant space, right?
19:26
SPEAKER_00: So that's uh in a QSR space, right?
19:29
SPEAKER_00: So basically, you know, they they are selling breakfast, lunch, and dinner, you know, sort of like a fast food chain, right?
19:36
SPEAKER_00: So then you know, we call that also you know, fast food is like a McDonald's and those types of things, but this is more like a little bit in between, like uh casual dining, right?
19:46
SPEAKER_00: So let's say it's something like that, and then you know, you are the CMO of that company, and then um you're trying to figure out, you know, how do I, you know, your main job is to kind of increase the frequency of visits of your customers, right?
20:01
SPEAKER_00: So you know if somebody comes for breakfast, how can I make sure that they keep coming for breakfast more times in a week, right?
20:08
SPEAKER_00: So if they come for once or twice in a week, now I want to figure out can I make them come five times a week?
20:15
SPEAKER_00: Can I make them come for breakfast, but also for maybe lunch, maybe dinner, right?
20:21
SPEAKER_00: So, how do I do that?
20:22
SPEAKER_00: So the the biggest challenge for them is to increase the number of visits of those customers, that's number one, and number two is to increase the ticket size.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: So whenever they come in, instead of just buying a sandwich and a drink, can I make them buy one more item, right?
20:40
SPEAKER_00: So it's so that the ticket price is more, right?
20:42
SPEAKER_00: So if you look at this, right, so this is the strategy that uh a CMO may come up with because you know they are tasked with hey, you need to increase the the sales uh per store sales by X percentage, right?
20:57
SPEAKER_00: So that's the goal that CMOs are actually given, and then they they come up with this.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you know what?
21:03
SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm gonna do.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna actually, you can't just randomly say something, otherwise, you can't measure, right?
21:09
SPEAKER_00: So they will say, I'm gonna increase the frequency of my existing customers, right?
21:13
SPEAKER_00: So let's say I have my existing customer, every customer that's visited my uh my restaurant in a specific location.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've got 10,000 customers.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: Now I want to increase 10,000 customers they visited 5,000 times.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Now I want to increase that 5,000 by say 10%, right?
21:34
SPEAKER_00: So 5,500 times.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: So now that's the goal for CMO.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: So they go to the chief marketing technologist and say, hey, now we need to figure out, you know, what is the you know, how can we do that?
21:47
SPEAKER_00: How can I increase that these 5,000 people coming, you know, I mean 5,000 visits to 5,500 visits.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: So then you know, the hand they they talk to the technologist.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, in that case, then We need to give them an offer.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: So maybe we should do an email marketing for them, right?
22:05
SPEAKER_00: So do I do we have all the email addresses of all these, you know, 10,000 customers that just come there, come to us?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: So if the answer is no, these are customers, we don't have any information about them, we don't have their email address, we don't have their phone number, but I have only 30% of those customers with those types of phone numbers, right?
22:25
SPEAKER_00: So then there is a data strategy where they will try to collect, you know, as customers are coming in.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, how do we entice them to sign up for say a loyalty program, right?
22:37
SPEAKER_00: So they will have a loyalty program.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Hey, we entice them to sign up, sign up here, I'm gonna give you 10%.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: So I start collecting if what we call as PII, personalized, personally identifiable, you know, information of those customers.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so that way I know more, right?
22:55
SPEAKER_00: So I know that information for more number of customers in my um in my set.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: So now if I have that information, then I can start engaging with them.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Hey, maybe I should just send them an email offer.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: But you cannot send that email offer randomly, right?
23:12
SPEAKER_00: You need to send it at the right time.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: So let's say at 11:30 they're working, they're browsing, and then they get an email saying, Hey, you know, come for lunch, you have 25% discount, right?
23:25
SPEAKER_00: So then that will entice them, hey, I'm gonna go pick up my lunch because it's right next door, whatnot, right?
23:31
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's that timing the strategy of customer engagement is a huge thing.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So that's where you know Chief Mark Martech um role comes in, and they say, Hey, we need to do this execution of this email channel, so we need to have you know personalized, you know, do we have an ability to time sending the email to the right individual, right?
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Depending on the location, right?
23:57
SPEAKER_00: So they look at you know different components that go behind the scenes, even just as simple as delivering an email offer at the right time, depending on the right individual where your restaurant location is, right?
24:10
SPEAKER_00: So that takes a lot of different pieces behind the scenes.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: So I need to know you know the customer information, email address, I need to know uh the restaurant location, and sometimes you may know you know where these customers are coming from, the physical address, because they would have ordered some delivery or whatnot, so you know that, and then depending on the location, uh the nearby uh the restaurant, so you're gonna give them an offer to that restaurant, you're not just giving an offer to just random anything, right?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: So that's how you're gonna personalize a lot of those things.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: So the handshake is you know, a goal is uh given to the CMO, CMO has to achieve that goal, and they work with chief montech um officers uh within the companies, and then they will try to you know put all that pieces together and execute it, right?
25:00
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, this once you have that foundation, the the CMT's chief marketing technologist is continuously looking at different pieces of technology.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Is this good?
25:10
SPEAKER_00: What else is out there, and how can we improvise this thing, right?
25:13
SPEAKER_00: So they're always looking at um uh you know innovating the pieces of technology.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Prior to that CMT role, Swami, uh you it it was IT, right?
25:23
SPEAKER_00: So the CMO would go to IT and say, Hey, I need to send these offers, so how can we do this?
25:29
SPEAKER_00: They're like, Okay, you know, we'll do this, and and then but when when they go to IT and they're not dedicated to marketing, they're dedicated for the enterprise as a whole, right?
25:38
SPEAKER_00: So they're doing multiple other things, they're managing ERPs, they're managing data, finance, sales, operations, so on and so forth.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: So then you know who gets priority depends on what's you know what's on fire on that particular day, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_00: So that's why you know with with the marketing technology role within the CMO's organization really helps running these things very, very quickly because they're constantly experimenting.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, hey, tomorrow what happens if we send this different offer, or we send an offer with something else.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, then you know you can try, you can experiment, you can get the results right there, and you can you can analyze the results and say if it worked, if it didn't work.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: So if it worked, let's continue to do it.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: If it didn't work, let's stop this, right?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: So let's not throw throw money on the same on things that didn't work before, right?
26:31
SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: Great.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: So uh where does uh ad tech fit in this?
26:38
SPEAKER_02: Because you've got Martech, and then suddenly the CMO has now got ad tech, right?
26:43
SPEAKER_02: So therefore, uh where does the uh CMO, the chief marketing technologist, the probably a chief digital officer, uh how do they kind of work together on this?
26:54
SPEAKER_02: And have you uh uh been in such situations where all these three things have to come together because you have probably uh you know STM happening, you've got STO happening, you've got uh coupons being done, there is e-commerce that is being done.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: So so many different channels are there.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: So, how do you bring them together and what skill sets are required to actually orchestrate this?
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it it it's uh it's interesting, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, a lot of times um companies um get a little confused, or they they you know, because they have a role, a specific role, uh they will push that particular role to execute certain functions, which is probably you know may or may not be their skill set, right?
27:43
SPEAKER_00: So you look at chief digital officer.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Um so chief digital officer, in my opinion, is more you know, a higher level role across the enterprise.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: It's you know, they are looking at not just marketing as one function, but they are looking at multiple other functions.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: How do I digitize, how do I um you know, drive this different processes efficiently within an enterprise?
28:10
SPEAKER_00: So they have a much larger remit, right?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with you, totally agree with you.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: And then you know, chief marketing technologist is purely focused on marketing technology, right?
28:22
SPEAKER_00: So they know, you know, in chiefmartech.com, if you go there, all the products that are there, that's where you know your Martech, your ad tech, your content management systems, your experience platform, personalization platforms, um, you know, website building, um email, you know, campaign management systems, you know, cross-channel platforms, all of these things uh are the things that they are focused on, right?
28:47
SPEAKER_00: And then including ad tech, right?
28:49
SPEAKER_00: So ad tech is now you know DMPs and DSPs of the world, right?
28:54
SPEAKER_00: So where uh you know you're basically buying media and different channels um to execute campaigns, right?
29:04
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if the example I gave earlier, you know, I need to send customers an offer so that they come to the to the restaurant uh to redeem that offer, right?
29:14
SPEAKER_00: So I can send them an email.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: So there are multiple ways of sending that offer, I can send them an email, or I can target them on the website um, you know, where they are, right?
29:24
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, for doing that, if you want to look at that channel, uh then you got to get through the ad tech component of it.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: So I want to target them on Facebook, I want to target them on social media, I want to target them on the website, then you need an ad tech component.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: So then the Martech component is more around, you know, I know I know this individual.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: So the the simplest way for me to differentiate those two is if you know the individual, their PII information, I know how to contact them either via email or phone or you know, physical address, then it goes to a Martech component.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: If I don't know them, it's mostly anonymous, and then you know I'm dealing with this whole cookie world, right?
30:08
SPEAKER_00: So then it goes into an ad tech component of it, right?
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes you know you know the individuals, but you want to specifically target them uh on those channels, so you can still do that, and you know, all the social media, Facebook and others, they allow you to upload an existing customer data and they will target them specifically uh with an ad.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: So that's how you know ad tech and montech comes into play.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: That CMT role is more focused around those types of things.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: So then you know, some depending on what the chief digital officer's remit is, and then you know, within their their realm of you know, marketing may be one function, but they may completely um you know give the responsibility to the the chief marketing technologist to run it.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: So that's why the CMT role is not there in every organization.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: So depending on you know how much importance they give for more tech, right?
31:05
SPEAKER_00: So that's where you know they hire that.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you know the companies are saying, no, and the chief digital officer will cover this part of it.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: So we don't need a CMT for this, right?
31:16
SPEAKER_00: So it just purely depends on the organization and then where how much focus that they want to give on the marketing side.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay, great.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh so does attribution become a problem?
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Because at one end you have the Martech teams trying to push some campaigns, you've got the ad tech teams trying to push some campaigns, and me as a consumer uh or a customer, I'm actually seeing it on the web.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm seeing a uh mobile app uh you know code jumping in.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh suddenly I would have received an email.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh so how do you really build attribution and can you talk to me about attribution models?
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Because you do a lot of such stuff, right?
31:56
SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, how do you really uh then reconcile the attribution given the fact there are so many such channels coming in?
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, attribution is is is ever um challenging problem for marketing.
32:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's even till today.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a you cannot do a hundred percent accurate attribution, in my opinion.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and again, it depends on the campaign.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: So if I'm doing an email campaign, um you know, even majority of the time I can you know 100% attribute and say, hey, you know, I sent an email campaign to send this customers back to my website, e-commerce website, and they redeem the offer, um, and then you know they convert it, right?
32:41
SPEAKER_00: So then you know you know clearly that this offer drove this many conversions, right?
32:47
SPEAKER_00: But as you said, Swami, it's um when the channels increase, right?
32:52
SPEAKER_00: So when you're doing a lot of ad tech component of it, right?
32:55
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm targeting impressions.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh when you're doing with those types of things, then the information you get back is just at an aggregated level.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: So you should you get like uh you know, hey, I served a million impressions on New York Times, right?
33:13
SPEAKER_00: But you know, there were like 30% of clicks on those ads, and I don't know who actually clicked on it.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: So now you have to kind of look at, you know, how do I attribute this?
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, 30% and how many people actually really converted.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Is are those people really the ones who actually saw the ad in New York Times?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: We don't know, right?
33:38
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one of the things that we have done in to address the challenge, again, it's not 100% accurate, but you know one way to do that is you know, you you do a digital campaign, you advertise it nationally.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: So we did it for a for a um a company, you know, it's it's a gym gym club uh company, right?
34:01
SPEAKER_00: So they had varieties of you know uh gym clubs in different places and different locations, uh, but the company targeted a digital campaign nationally, right?
34:12
SPEAKER_00: And then they wanted to figure out how many of those people really joining the clubs at a specific location saw the ad and came.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: So it is very it it so what we did was you know we looked at uh we looked at you know how many people, how many impressions were served nationally, how many people actually uh the clicks that we collected, and then we had the people who actually joined the club.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: So when people join the club, you have their information, you know who their last name, first name, their email address, phone number, physical address potentially, right?
34:50
SPEAKER_00: So now I have their information.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: Now what I can do is I can upload that information into an ad tech, you know, things like live ramp, right?
34:59
SPEAKER_00: So when you upload it and they will convert you know the PII information, and then they will try to find those those individuals' cookies that are there in the digital world, right?
35:11
SPEAKER_00: And then when this when you had served the ad before, and those ads were also, you know, if if they had clicked and they also had a cookie there.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: So now you do a cookie match and see if these two people, you know, cookies really matched, and then you say, Hey, maybe this is the person who actually saw the ad.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: Did they come really because they saw the ad and joined the club?
35:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, no, we don't know.
35:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they would have seen the ad, but they still came.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: But you're just attributing because the cookies are are matching, you're attributing that to, yeah, because they saw the ad.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that you know, we can say that, yeah, they saw the ad, but they joined the joined the club.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: So that's the best um approximation that you can make um that uh you know in terms of attribution, right?
35:59
SPEAKER_00: So there are tools today that are available, you know.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: They call this, you know, Adobe has one of the tools, you know, attribution IQ.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: So what it does is you can send data from different channels, you know, and then it gives you an ability to model the data, right?
36:15
SPEAKER_00: So, how do you want to attribute?
36:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, you you want to attribute for last touch, you know, what was the last channel that they actually saw?
36:23
SPEAKER_00: And if it was an email channel, I mean let's say you targeted somebody with digital campaigns on uh on on the media side, and then you also sent them an email, and then they saw the last thing that they saw was an email, then you attribute everything to the email, then nothing goes to the you know the digital component of it, right?
36:44
SPEAKER_00: Or you can do a first touch attribution, and you say everything goes to the the impression that I've served for them, and nothing goes to the email part of it, and then there is all those things in between that you can do.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: Say I give certain weightage to this, I give certain weightage to this, and then I you know see what the attribution is, right?
37:03
SPEAKER_00: So there is all this different types of you know tools that are available that gives you you know 15 to 20 different types of statistical modeling that you can do for attribution.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh so these are all you know very various ways, but in my opinion, till date, it it still remains a challenge for marketers to you know determine the attribution accurately.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: So uh so therefore uh coming to this most talked-about topic, right?
37:32
SPEAKER_02: You're moving to a cookie less world, and there's going to be a lot of first-party data.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, how is it all going to work if it becomes uh a cookie less world?
37:43
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I do have DMPs, and DMPs now will not have uh, you know, all these cookies, or for example, live ramp will have issues around cookies.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: So, how is it all moving and what what do you see as the uh you know the path to a cookie less world, and therefore how will marketing change?
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of talk around that right now, right?
38:07
SPEAKER_00: So there's cookie less, you know, people focusing on first party data is is taking uh center stage, right?
38:16
SPEAKER_00: So that's where CDPs, customer data platforms, are coming into you know limelight, right?
38:23
SPEAKER_00: So you know now everyone is you know offering a product and collecting customer data, they're calling themselves a CDP, right?
38:30
SPEAKER_00: So tag management companies used to collect tags, you know, on the website and uh information about visitors, and because I'm collecting customer data, now I'm a CDP, right?
38:41
SPEAKER_00: So uh there are you know that's why the first party data is going to uh be very important.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: So people who are willingly coming to your website, people who are willingly giving the information about your website, right?
38:58
SPEAKER_00: So collect that information and then maximize collection of that information as much as possible, right?
39:06
SPEAKER_00: And uh there are varieties of theories that is going on in the market right now that um you know the traditional contextual marketing is going to become very uh come back to you know, come back to believe too.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: That's the for me that was the next question that I was moving to, which is you move back to the traditional uh marketing, but uh you know you go through the same buying system, so it's just because you're on my database doesn't mean that you're going to buy.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: Therefore, uh, you know, I saw this uh you know interesting quote from Brian Chesky saying that you know I'm gonna reduce my spend on search and I'm gonna put more money on education and I'm getting more results on it.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: So it's a fairly controversial statement.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: So do you see the old world marketing uh coming in with a lot of contextual stuff?
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Do you see that?
39:59
SPEAKER_00: So that is that is one area.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: I think it it it's uh I'm not saying that that is all uh you know everything is going to be contextual modeling, but you know, contextual modeling will be a piece of you know how they are going to actually market.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: So depending on again, you know, what industry you're in, if you're in a publication industry, contextual modeling is contextual marketing is is very, very you know important.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: So if you're you know in a local region in Texas and you know you you're browsing New York Times, then they will contextually show you the content specific to your local region, right?
40:33
SPEAKER_00: So that kind of thing.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: So they clearly know that you're a subscriber from this region, and then I contextualize and personalize, localize those types of information for you.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then the other piece of contextual modeling is uh you know, you're you're doing research on the product, so you're looking at you know product information, product uh sheets, and so on and so forth.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: So then when you are there, then I'm going to target specifically these are the you know, this is what you're looking for, this is what is important for what you're looking for, right?
41:07
SPEAKER_00: So, based on the historical um you know browsing behavior, then I will determine exactly this is what you're looking for.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: Some of this is is is uh based on purely you know the first party data, you know, people coming in um and then um you know giving their information, right?
41:29
SPEAKER_00: The other piece is also you know first party cookies, right?
41:33
SPEAKER_00: So now you go to the websites and you know everywhere they'll say cookie consent, right?
41:37
SPEAKER_00: So you have to consent that you know cookies are your cookies being collected, right?
41:43
SPEAKER_00: So DMPs may have some sort of uh DMPs will evolve, right?
41:47
SPEAKER_00: So in my opinion, uh what will happen is when you say I'm consenting for the cookies, then you can also say that I'm collecting this cookie so that I can share with a limited set of people, right?
42:01
SPEAKER_00: So then you know, when you share that cookie across say to in retail, they have always have this um coalition, right?
42:11
SPEAKER_00: So when you have that type of coalition, then uh you can share those cookies, and then you know, from one industry or one company to the other company website, when you go, then you know, if they are actually using the same DMP, then you have an opportunity to kind of you know cross-target them on different websites.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: What they are doing today, you can continue to do it tomorrow as well, but there are with some with some limitations, right?
42:39
SPEAKER_00: So, number one is you have to accept the cookies that can be shared with others, and number two is there should be a coalition between different companies.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: Number three is that same DMP that is collecting the cookies is being used by other companies too, right?
42:54
SPEAKER_00: So, with all of these things, those become the selling factors for DMPs and DSPs to go and you know, hey, look, you know, I've got you know, I'm a part of this coalition, so when you sign me up, then you'll be able to cross-target your customers across multiple areas.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's how I personally think you know, maybe that's another way that uh you know you can uh alternatively solve this, you know the cookie less kind of problem.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not really cookie less, you know, you still are going to have cookies, but it's uh you know consent-based usage on those cookies, right?
43:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh contextual marketing will become you know uh a part of that.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then CDPs are going to take limeless.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: CDPs will be the technology that will be actually enabling you to collect all that information.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: And then uh there is this whole notion of zero party data, also, you know, where um zero party data is where you know customers are giving the information uh voluntarily, right?
43:59
SPEAKER_00: Um So, you know, like in when you go to the website, so you see a little quiz, hey, you know, are you interested in this item?
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh say if you if it's uh uh a vitamin website and you're like, oh, do you want vitamins for this?
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Do you want uh vitamin D?
44:17
SPEAKER_00: Do you want vitamin B?
44:19
SPEAKER_00: So based on the questions that you answer, then we collect all that information and then we personalize you know a specific product and communication to you, right?
44:28
SPEAKER_00: So that zero party data is also going to become extremely critical uh in this cookie less world.
44:39
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44:46
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44:53
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44:57
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45:08
SPEAKER_01: And now back to the show.
45:12
SPEAKER_02: So you are somebody, uh Sukumar, who actually have done a lot of digital transformation, right?
45:17
SPEAKER_02: And I'm pretty much interested in uh, you know, there's a lot of discussions around you know industry like auto and you know retail and things like that.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: But I saw a very interesting uh you know vertical that you seem to have worked on, which is manufacturing and digital transformation, right?
45:37
SPEAKER_02: And uh so uh how was the whole world of digital transformation, if you really want to get it right, okay, uh what would you recommend as best practices uh looking at digital transformation?
45:51
SPEAKER_02: How do you really build this within the organization?
45:54
SPEAKER_02: And uh how do you ensure that the bottlenecks or the collaboration, how does it happen?
46:01
SPEAKER_02: So, what would you think you have seen work uh very well?
46:04
SPEAKER_02: And can you talk to me about it?
46:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um it's uh you know, there are a lot of pieces to that, um Swami.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when you talk about digital transformation, there is like, you know, everyone talks about that term um, you know, they use fairly loosely for, you know, hey, I'm implementing a new software tool.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: So then we say the company is going through a huge digital transformation, right?
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Companies implementing a procurement tool, and then you know, oh, they're going through a whole digital transformation.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe not, right?
46:40
SPEAKER_00: So uh it's not just you know, I'm implementing a new tool, and that's digital transformation, uh, but it's more around you know enabling the process.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: So you need to basically look at as an enterprise, you know, what are some of the critical processes that will drive an enterprise behavior?
47:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, now these days customer centricity is so um you know ingrained in every company.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: So you know they look at customer as in the center and they build the processes around the customer, right?
47:13
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, you know, who is who am I selling this product to, right?
47:17
SPEAKER_00: So I need to understand the customer, so I need to know exactly what they are looking for.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: Is my products and services support them, right?
47:26
SPEAKER_00: So then you have your marketing organization that is built around that.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Now you say, okay, now this customer I'm selling these products.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: So if there is a problem with the product, who are they going to actually call?
47:38
SPEAKER_00: So now I have a customer support center, so that's customer support they call, it's built around that, right?
47:44
SPEAKER_00: So it's sent at the center is customer, and then on top, around all of that is your processes.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: So now if you look at do I have the processes to support it, right?
47:57
SPEAKER_00: Previously, you know, companies could be, you know, they they start, um, you know, here's a product, so I want to go sell, and everyone starts like you know, think, build, ship, and then modify, right?
48:11
SPEAKER_00: So that's the process, you know.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Historically, it's like, you know, I thought about it, I built something, I shipped it, so let's go fix it now, based on you know what are the issues that I'm facing.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: So that is one way of looking at it, right?
48:24
SPEAKER_00: So, but now you look at transformation, digital transformation is now no, I want to change this into a customer-centric way of doing it.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Now that becomes a complete transformation process, right?
48:34
SPEAKER_00: So now you are changing your mindset from product-centric to say customer-centric.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: Now you need to completely go through a transformative process.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: And do you do I have the process defined?
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Do I have the tools and technologies to support that process?
48:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's what is uh, you know, in my opinion, that's what is truly a digital transformation.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: So, what happens is in a way, you know, let's say your customer is in the center, now I want to build a marketing organization around that, then you know, do I have tools and technologies to do it to understand the customer?
49:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now I have a website, customer comes to the website.
49:14
SPEAKER_00: Do I have tools to understand who these customers are?
49:17
SPEAKER_00: Am I able to collect the information on the website and every single visitor that is coming, right?
49:23
SPEAKER_00: How much do I know if they don't declare themselves?
49:27
SPEAKER_00: And how much do I know once they declare themselves on the website?
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Now there is different, you know, they go through marketing organization will go through, oh, I need a tool that can collect a web analytics tool that can collect all this information, right?
49:42
SPEAKER_00: So now they come to a software vendor who drives this web analytics tool, and then they're talking to them and say, I'm going through a big digital transformation process in my company.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: As a part of this, I'm doing web analytics.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: So now the vendor will say, Oh, web analytics is a digital transformation tool.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is one of the pieces of the digital transformation tool.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: So that's how you know things come into play.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: So for us as a services, you know, marketing technology services company, so customers are always coming with different things that they are modifying within their processes, right?
50:20
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, sometimes it's an end-to-end transformation, sometimes it's some pieces that are missing, and sometimes there are some those pieces that they're migrating from older technology to newer technology, modernizing the technology so that they can be future-proof for the next three or four or five years.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, then we help them figure out you know what those gaps are and what technology really fits in that gap, right?
50:45
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when I worked in supply chain, the manufacturing um, you know, warehouse and you know, automotive parts and stuff like that.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: So part distribution was uh was very critical.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you need to figure out you know how much parts, different automotive parts should be stored at different places, right?
51:06
SPEAKER_00: So um I also worked for um it's an interesting one.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: I worked for Boeing.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: Um we were uh helping their uh C-17 aircrafts.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, for C-17 aircrafts, well, they have varieties of parts.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: How much of different parts should be stored at different, you know, Air Force bases, right?
51:26
SPEAKER_00: So then you know you go through a complete you know process of forecasting and and identifying reliability, you know, reliability engineering becomes very important.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what are the chances that this this part will fail?
51:39
SPEAKER_00: And what are the chances that I need to have that part available in that location, right?
51:44
SPEAKER_00: So bringing that reliability and forecasting together was was you know a transformative uh exercise for them.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: This was back in 1998, 99 time frame.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: Um so I mean, if you fast forward today, you know, everything is is digitized, right?
52:02
SPEAKER_00: So you know organizations are looking at um, in my opinion, the next level of transformation is you know, think of Google as as simple as that, right?
52:12
SPEAKER_00: So Google, you can just go to Google, it's back at the back end of Google is your entire internet, right?
52:19
SPEAKER_00: So why can't we do the same thing at an enterprise level, right?
52:24
SPEAKER_00: So you go to an enterprise, um, you know, you are let's say a proctor and gamble, right?
52:30
SPEAKER_00: So if I am the you know the C-suite in Procter and Gamble sitting there, I should be able to search with a small Google search type of thing and say, what is my you know marketing spend today?
52:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, where are the challenges in the world within Proctor and Gamble facilities?
52:48
SPEAKER_00: Where are the rejects happening on the parts that I'm shipping to, you know, on the products that I'm shipping to different locations?
52:55
SPEAKER_00: So I should be able to just do that search and then figure out or get all the answers, right?
53:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's it should be that simple.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where you know uh the next level of digital transformation is going to take place.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, brilliant example.
53:10
SPEAKER_02: I think it's uh beautiful way of saying that uh, you know, how uh the Google example and the analogy to a company is a is a brilliant way of looking at it, and then you have uh, you know, I would call it slices of stacks sitting underneath it to solve the uh you know the search that you are having in as for the organization.
53:33
SPEAKER_02: That's not true.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: One thing I want to add there, uh Swami, is it's uh you know, it looks big, right?
53:38
SPEAKER_00: So you know that's where you know we need to think big that way.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: That's the end state that I want to achieve.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: But you know, you can start small with uh, you know, I'll do a Google search to just figure out you know a factory issues, right?
53:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, in if it is a factory situation, I want to figure out is the are all the products are shipped on time, right?
54:00
SPEAKER_00: So now if if somebody wants to do that, right, that the uh this is what I call democratizing the the data across everyone in the organization, right?
54:09
SPEAKER_00: So if you want to know that information, what do you do today?
54:12
SPEAKER_00: So you go to you go to that factory, you call that you know divisional manager, divisional manager will say, I don't know, let me call the factory manager.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: So the factory manager will say, Oh, I don't know, I need to call the foreman of that uh, you know, the quality department, and then they will go log into a system and they will show uh bring a report, or they may have you know, much more advanced organizations will have a reporting, uh a BI type of reporting, somebody can log into that BI and you can look at it.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: So essentially, now that is in one set of tools.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: Now, if you want to figure out, you know, how did my campaigns perform last week?
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Now you got to get into a different set of marketing technology tool to figure out that thing.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: But instead, if you had a Google search which can give you, you know, how is my marketing campaign?
54:58
SPEAKER_00: So you're doing the search in only one place, and it just gives you the back end, it's connected, right?
55:04
SPEAKER_00: So it start with one thing, start with maybe just the factory quality problems, or start with marketing campaign problems, connect that to your front end, and then you start connecting other tools to the front end and then create that nice interface where you can you know ask the question, you get the answers back.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: And that's where you know this is this this is exactly you know the things where web 3 technologies are are coming in, right?
55:32
SPEAKER_00: So you know, web 3 is not just blockchain, web 3 is not just uh you know uh decentralized ledge ledger, but it's more you know edge computing, it's more AI AI ML, it's cloud computing, you know, it's all of this collective terms, uh, is what I call as a as Web3.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's read, write, interact on the web.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: That piece of technology is where you're gonna get um, you know, uh you can achieve these types of things there.
56:01
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
56:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:02
SPEAKER_02: So uh you do uh uh you know integrated loyalty in Ansira.
56:08
SPEAKER_02: So uh so how do you define integrated loyalty?
56:11
SPEAKER_02: Because I found that to be a very interesting term.
56:14
SPEAKER_02: And why did you call it integrated loyalty?
56:16
SPEAKER_02: And what's the value proposition?
56:19
SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's a great question.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've seen like varieties of uh uh questions on on this topic.
56:26
SPEAKER_00: Some people say integrated loyalty is a loyalty program, right?
56:31
SPEAKER_00: So, like how we see in different cases, some people think integrated loyalty is a software application, but it's actually none of those two things.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: So, integrated loyalty, what we call is is much more than loyalty, right?
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Much more than loyalty program, sorry, I would say.
56:47
SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, if you look at just loyalty as a whole, right?
56:52
SPEAKER_00: So loyalty means what, right?
56:55
SPEAKER_00: So loyalty means I like a particular company, a particular product that belongs to a particular company, and every time I think about that, you know, I think about that product, I think about that company.
57:07
SPEAKER_00: Apple is a great example, right?
57:09
SPEAKER_00: You may or may not have Apple, but you know, you're there are a lot of people, you know, they know the company, and then the next set of things, you know, customers are you know very loyal, so it whatever you're thinking, you know, it's they're it's driving their affinity to that brand, right?
57:28
SPEAKER_00: So that's what you know we call loyalty.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: How can we drive customers' affinity to the brand, right?
57:36
SPEAKER_00: Even if they are not thinking about the product, right?
57:40
SPEAKER_00: So normally when customers are thinking about the product when they are in a buying cycle, you want to buy something, then you're doing a research, and then hey, you know, join this loyalty program and you will get this benefits, right?
57:53
SPEAKER_00: So people will join the program.
57:55
SPEAKER_00: So, but what happened there?
57:56
SPEAKER_00: It's they are in the buying cycle.
57:59
SPEAKER_00: But what we say is even if they are not in the buying cycle, how can they be thinking about you all the time?
58:06
SPEAKER_00: So we go beyond loyalty programs.
58:09
SPEAKER_00: So, what it means is you know, it means uh knowing the customer well.
58:14
SPEAKER_00: So, meaning, you know, we do a lot of data CDP, data consolidation, knowing your customers, all the things that we talked about in earlier, you know, knowing that's creating that foundation of knowing the customer is consolidation of data, you know, building CDP platforms, uh, driving that first party intent and knowledge and all of that.
58:37
SPEAKER_00: And then the second piece is now how do I drive analytics and how do I drive insights from that data, right?
58:43
SPEAKER_00: So now that I have all of this data, then I need to know you know what are the insights I can drive, derive from that.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: So then we can say, hey, 30% of this customers that I've collected are interested in this, or they are willing to take this kind of action.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: Now the third thing is you know, continuously engaging with them with some content, you know, whether you're delivering email, whether you're delivering meeting them on at the right time on social media or SMS or push on the mobile side, uh, you're you're communicating with them, and you're communicating with compelling content, right?
59:20
SPEAKER_00: So there is that creative and copywriting and and uh you know engaging them with the right content, right?
59:27
SPEAKER_00: So now when you do all of this, they're always you know the brand is always on the top of customers' mind, whether they are in buying cycle or not, right?
59:35
SPEAKER_00: So they're always, oh, they sent me an interesting information about this product, so I know about this company all the time, right?
59:43
SPEAKER_00: So that's how we look at uh you know integrated loyalty.
59:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's a suite or slate of services that we offer as a part of this integrated loyalty that includes data services that include Martech services that include creative services, print, strategy, um, so all of these analytics, you know, reporting, data science, you know, those types of things, all of this comprehensively we offer that.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, we also do specifically loyalty program as well, right?
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: So identifying what's the right loyalty program for the right business.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh, different businesses have different types of programs.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_00: We design that program, we help them select the right technology, and we implement that program.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, brilliant.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_02: And uh, so therefore, if you look at Ansira as a company, yeah.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh so would you compete with an Ogilvi?
1:00:37
SPEAKER_02: Would you compete with uh Wonderman Thompson?
1:00:40
SPEAKER_02: Would you compete with an Omnicom?
1:00:42
SPEAKER_02: So where do you see your niche and where do you see your uh so do you coexist with other agencies?
1:00:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh because they also seem to be buying similar companies, right?
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: So you had uh you know Axiom being bought by IPG, right?
1:00:56
SPEAKER_02: So therefore, uh so do you coexist and therefore what's your uh you know value proposition and therefore what's your calling card that makes a big difference vis-a-vis these giants?
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you know we have a you know, like I said, we have slate of services, integrated loyalty is um one part of it.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but overall, you know, we uh we basically we empower companies across you know retail, automotive, tech, other things, and and then um we also have a a suite of products that we support, you know, the ecosystems, right?
1:01:35
SPEAKER_00: So for example, uh companies that sell through agents and dealers and retailers.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_00: Um it could be it could be in the retail, it could be manufacturing, distribution, it could be automotive, right?
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: So automotive you have tier one, tier two, tier three, right?
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: So you you know, we have a set of services that support these things, and then we have a set of services where specifically targeted to automotive, you know, what we call as um um you know in-market activation.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: So you look at auto dealers, we run the website digital marketing for individual dealers.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, we run their websites, we run their digital marketing program, whether it's email or media, uh, those types of things.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: And then uh we do that at scale, we do that, you know, we we've got our own DSP, and then we also have integrated loyalty, right?
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: So these are uh the the different slate of services.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: So when you look at it at different services piece, you know, who are we targeting, which customers are we targeting, what we are offering, we compete with different set of uh um competitors in the market.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_00: So Wonderman Thompson or Epsilon or Merkle, so we compete with them when you when it comes to the integrated loyalty services.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: Integrated loyalty if I'm doing a data uh data management services, right?
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: So I'm definitely competing with Axioms and Merkle's.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_00: So if I'm doing uh a loyalty program, and you know these companies outsource the loyalty program to us to create, design, and manage the program, then definitely I'm competing with Merkle, right?
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: So because they also have a product, they also have a loyalty services and so on.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then there are all these emerging players who are you know up and comers that we always compete, you know.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes this company we've not heard of, and they're you know, they are competing with us.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and sometimes you know, in in in a large retainer base, you know, companies are outsourcing for thinking of outsourcing for larger than you know 12 months, 12, 24, 36 months, then we are competing with traditional BPOs, you know, like cognizance of the world, Wipros of the world, right?
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: So those types of things uh because they are building services skill sets in Martech and all of that.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we compete with them.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: So our niche is really, you know, we provide uh end-to-end services, you know, companies want turnkey, so we are a very, very good competitive alternative for for them.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: And then we also do very specific, you know, as I said in integrated loyalty.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: If somebody wants just analytic services, we just do analytics, we go and do reporting.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: Somebody wants just data consolidation, we do that.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so they don't have to sign us up for end-to-end turnkey type of thing.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_00: So we go and do pointed uh solutions as well.
1:04:31
SPEAKER_00: And we do that, you know, in full service, self-service, um, or hybrid in any kind of mode.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: And so being really flexible, I think you know, we are we are marketing technology and services company that is flexible and nimble.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's how we compete.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: And you know, people like that.
1:04:49
SPEAKER_00: And you know, when when they see when they're evaluating a list of competition, uh they look at us as much more nimble, agile, uh, flexible.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we can mobilize a team very, very quickly.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so so you do have a creative team and uh they do the content and things like that.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_02: So the technologists sit, uh the analytics guys sit with their creative guys, the creative guys work with uh technology teams, and that's the way it works, is it?
1:05:21
SPEAKER_02: That's the way it works.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's why you know what we did was you know, data, creative, technology, marketing technology services, um, and then analytics services, it's all under one roof.
1:05:33
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you're if we are offering you know different pieces of services, then you know it's not in silos.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: So we collaborate, and you know, there is always um you know a collective solution that is put in front of the customer.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: So do you believe do you believe that's the way the future of marketing is going to be?
1:05:53
SPEAKER_02: Because I certainly believe uh the current agency uh you know uh group models or the Communication group, uh, you know, while they may have silos, they may not necessarily necessarily give you the collective solutions that you are offering.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_02: So, is that the way the future of marketing is going to be?
1:06:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you know, that's how at least you know I'm differentiating um you know what we do, and then I think that's where industry is also heading.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, because you know, whether you're doing a collective set of services or not, right, even if it is just a point solution, but you are thinking about it holistically, right?
1:06:32
SPEAKER_00: So if we are an organization that are good in doing you know end-to-end thing, right?
1:06:37
SPEAKER_00: So although I'm contracted to do only a specific piece of services, but I bring in the best practice.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: Hey, if you do this, watch out for upstream problems, watch out for downstream problems here, right?
1:06:49
SPEAKER_00: So giving that information is so helpful for the clients, versus you know, if you're a technology company, they hire you to let's say implement you know an email product, right?
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: ESP, and then you come in, you install, you go, and then you know, all the other things that data that is feeding into ESP and the data that is getting extracted from ESP, how are you reporting it and what kind of information is collected, all of that is never thought about, right?
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: So because the the this SI's job is to just come in, implement technology, do some UAT testing, sign off, and go, right?
1:07:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh so what we say is although we may just do exactly the same thing, but we will think about all the things that that is required for upstream data and also for downstream processes.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_02: So, what do you think is the future of Meta?
1:07:43
SPEAKER_02: And uh is Metaverse going to be very, very important for marketing?
1:07:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh, do you guys uh have a specific set of strategy to integrate it in your integrated loyalty services?
1:07:57
SPEAKER_00: See, Meta the um it's it's it's an emerging channel, in my opinion, right?
1:08:06
SPEAKER_00: So Metaverse is an emerging marketing channel, right?
1:08:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh there are a lot of channels that came before, right?
1:08:14
SPEAKER_00: So things like um, you know, IBM started this thing, like uh what did they call it?
1:08:19
SPEAKER_00: I think it's called they call Second World or something.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: So they had something like that, but that never took off.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_02: Uh second, you know, it was called Second Life, I think.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_00: Second Life, yeah, yeah, Second Life, exactly, right.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: Um I couldn't quite recollect the term.
1:08:37
SPEAKER_00: Um the you know that didn't take off that much, right?
1:08:42
SPEAKER_00: So, but now I think the technology is really advanced, right?
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of you know, Web3 and so on and so forth, right?
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh Clubhouse was one thing.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you knew uh the social audio thing, you know, that started.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it really took off that much.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_00: Um everyone was just by invite only.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_00: But in my opinion, Meta is you know yet another marketing channel, depending not for all businesses, only for certain businesses.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh and meta, you know, the way I would split that is you know, there are three components of meta.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: One is uh the entertainment component, which is basically you know the gaming piece and communities and um you know collaboration, that kind of thing.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: So you could you could have a meta metaverse where you can go and join, just do gaming, done, right?
1:09:35
SPEAKER_00: The second component is social component within meta.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: So where you know you you can create avatars, right?
1:09:43
SPEAKER_00: So you can you can have like you know Iswami Avatar and My Avatar, both of us log in, and then your avatars are there, and then you know you can get into your chat box and you know talk to each other kind of thing, right?
1:09:57
SPEAKER_00: The third piece is on the business side, so which is basically you know um you log in, you get into the meta, you do the meetings, uh, you take the you take the 3D tour, right?
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: So you know ARVR is actually a subset of Meta, so which is required to do those types of three-dimensional, you know, yeah touring, uh, holo portation, those types of things uh are are done through that conducting business and you know meetings and so on and so forth.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's going to take off in certain areas, like uh, you know, one of the clients that we are working with, they're they're experimenting on that, and um, it's in the entertainment side.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, how many times you and I will sit down and say, you know, I want to go to this resort, right?
1:10:46
SPEAKER_00: But if only I knew how it looks inside, you know, what's what are the different things that are there?
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: What are the services that are there?
1:10:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes you're like, uh, you know, I want to go to this place, but you know, I want to go inside, I want to turn right and see where it is, or you're going for you know, completely, you know, you're traveling to a different place, you're visiting your client, you want to understand they are in downtown, where where is the parking, right?
1:11:12
SPEAKER_00: So then if you have a meta, have a 3D, you can go in there and you can take a tour of all of that.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, parking is here, oh, this thing is there.
1:11:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, you can see those types of things.
1:11:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm just using that as a my own.
1:11:27
SPEAKER_02: So, what you're really saying is imagine I was a travel aggregator.
1:11:32
SPEAKER_02: I can actually think metaverse is my next level of just photographs being around, metaverse could be the next level of uh you know interaction as far as my customers are concerned, because I'm able to see the resort, I'm able to see the services, and therefore it's just not photographs as you see it today, but it's real life experience where AI, uh, you know, ARVR is all integrated into the experience, and then you go and book the restort.
1:12:00
SPEAKER_02: That's really where you see the metaverse uh, you know, uh really uh getting some traction and then uh adoption then will start to raise.
1:12:09
SPEAKER_02: That's really what yeah.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean that's where you know that's one place where I see it's in the use case standpoint, right?
1:12:15
SPEAKER_00: So that's very, very quickly, you know, people can um can understand and comprehend why it is useful.
1:12:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we all think about you know, I want to know what is there before I get there, right?
1:12:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, then when you get that real you know virtual tour of that, then you're like oh, I really like that.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_00: I want to I want to go there, and you so you sign up.
1:12:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the other things you know that follows that is you know, you can take that to marketing varieties of you know, Martech kind of thing, right?
1:12:48
SPEAKER_00: So take for example loyalty.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh customers are you know, you want to take them through an experience, you know, here's the product that you that we are selling, and when you use this product, this these are the benefits you can see.
1:13:01
SPEAKER_00: Then then you know they can get like a virtual tour of that, and then if you take this tour, I'm gonna add you know, a thousand loyalty points for you, right?
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, they're training, right?
1:13:12
SPEAKER_00: So, in a B2B kind of training component, you know, we do a lot of uh B2B loyalty also for like um you know heating and air conditioning companies, they're you know, where you have technicians actually going and installing at the individual houses, then they go through a metaverse and they you know take the training, and then we give them loyalty points, right?
1:13:34
SPEAKER_00: So then you know clearly, you know what is being done.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that kind of thing, and then you know, add on top of that the blockchain component with NFTs and stuff like that, right?
1:13:45
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I was talking about the entertainment piece collaboration where two two different you know people are coming, and then you can share.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, if you have an NFT, you have a digital art, you can share, hey, I got this art you want to buy, we want to exchange, so then you can swap.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it it gives you the authenticity to what you're exchanging and what you're sharing and what you're selling, right?
1:14:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, versus if it is some sort of other currency, then you don't know, you know, it's real, not real.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, first of all, you're an artificial world, and then you're you don't know what is real.
1:14:20
SPEAKER_00: So, what you're doing with the blockchain is you're making the authenticity exchange real in a virtual world.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's great.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, so I'm pretty much coming to the end of our conversation, and uh I want to focus on a couple of things, uh Sukumar.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh if I were in the marketing department starting, or am I if I'm in my mid-career kind of uh uh you know position, uh what are the skill sets that uh you believe are going to give me the competitive edge and what should I be uh uh killing myself with to be future proof uh given such technological changes that are happening and how you are seeing marketing change from an advanced market like the US, what skill sets do you believe marketers across the globe need to have and what do you think is completely non-negotiable?
1:15:15
SPEAKER_00: Non-negotiable, right?
1:15:17
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_00: No, I think uh you know I always um answer that question, you know, much more philosophically versus you know a technical skill set type of thing, right?
1:15:31
SPEAKER_00: So I'm not gonna say, oh, you have to be a sales forcer, you have to know metaverse, you have to know blockchain.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, those are you know technological components, but primarily what you should know is really you know individuals with an extensive level of curiosity.
1:15:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, curiosity is what is important.
1:15:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, curiosity, what I define by that is you know, if they hear something about metaverse, if they read, I mean, these days, you know, youngsters, um, you know, mid-career, uh experienced people alike, right, across the board, um you know, you're seeing different things, you're seeing different um, hey, metaverse is coming in this space, then you can read that information, you can leave that alone, or you can dig deeper and get curious and how is this thing really going to work, right?
1:16:21
SPEAKER_00: What are the different things that are actually available in order to make this work, right?
1:16:28
SPEAKER_00: So, if you are a curiously minded individual, I mean, especially for people who are starting the career, this is what I tell my daughter just don't worry about all the things that you're doing, just be curious and ask questions, try to dig deeper and learn more, right?
1:16:43
SPEAKER_00: Then, as you start learning more, then you will be able to say, Oh, I read something about metaverse here, or I read something about blockchain here, so I read something about here.
1:16:53
SPEAKER_00: Then you'll be able to have that mindset to connect the dots.
1:16:57
SPEAKER_00: When you have the mindset to connect the dots, that skill set, that strategic thinking skill set is what helps you driving the organization forward, and then you have this next level of skills where you're saying, Oh, I want to build this you know blockchain-enabled database.
1:17:14
SPEAKER_00: Then you go hire a set of blockchain-related skill sets, right?
1:17:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's uh you can you can learn on on you know, if you're curious enough, then you can be expert in creating you know distributed ledger and and uh you can learn something, you know, how to do metaverse on a Roblox platform, right?
1:17:35
SPEAKER_00: So that kind of thing, you can learn those types of things, and then comes the technical skill sets, and then you focus on exactly what you're interested in, what is in high demand, and then you learn that.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_00: But you should know fundamentally, you know, these are all the different pieces of you know uh domain knowledge is so important, right?
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: So knowing marketing as a domain is extremely critical, and being very, very curious about you know how different things work in that domain is important, and then the third thing is all your different components of technology skill sets.
1:18:09
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, curiosity in my mind is completely non-negotiable.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_00: You have to be curious, you otherwise you will not be able to curiosity and connecting the dots across different things because you know every day you you you're hearing different things, and then uh innovation really happens from uh one industry cross industries, right?
1:18:29
SPEAKER_00: So, if you worked in automotive, how can I bring this into retail?
1:18:32
SPEAKER_00: If I worked in retail, how can I bring this into you know uh technology company?
1:18:37
SPEAKER_00: I think there was an example where Microsoft had hired uh this guy who was who came from a retail uh background, right?
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what does that got to do with the software company?
1:18:49
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people ask that question, no, but he came from retail, he knew exactly how to distribute the products, and he helped actually Microsoft shrink wrap all their office products and distribute and sell at individual retailers, right?
1:19:02
SPEAKER_00: So you think it's cross-industry innovation uh is also you know extremely important.
1:19:09
SPEAKER_00: So the more you work across different industries with that mindset, you'll be able to connect all that dots.
1:19:14
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
1:19:15
SPEAKER_02: I think it is one of the best answers uh I've ever got on uh you know how one should be prepared for the marketing of tomorrow.
1:19:24
SPEAKER_02: Uh, what are the uh books that uh you think uh have inspired you over years uh in technology, Martech, marketing, which you believe uh can be good uh you know anchors for people to learn things while there is web, of course, but which kind of books have kind of given you a good uh uh you know faster of the starting block kind of a thing?
1:19:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I mean you know for me really, you know, as I gave you examples earlier, right?
1:19:59
SPEAKER_00: So I mean how I started my career in marketing.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_00: Um started with the database marketing.
1:20:04
SPEAKER_00: So there is uh I forgot I still have that book here.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_00: Um it's uh it's fundament it's actually this one here.
1:20:20
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm uh strategic database marketing by Arthur Hughes, right?
1:20:26
SPEAKER_00: So this is an old book.
1:20:27
SPEAKER_00: This is uh um this is 2000.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_00: It's actually in 1995, you know, it was originally 1995, and there's various reprints that are actually available.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_00: Um that kind of started me with the you know the whole Martech, right?
1:20:50
SPEAKER_00: So this gives you an excellent foundation for what this whole database marketing is about, and then there is this this other one here, you know, the Martech handbook.
1:21:01
SPEAKER_00: So that gives you you know Martech handbook by Darrell Alfonso.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_00: Um so it kind of gives you overall, if you want to know, you know, what are different pieces of Martech, and you know, how do I how do I know different things that's going on in Martech across you know technology, vendors, agencies, services?
1:21:21
SPEAKER_00: This is a good one.
1:21:22
SPEAKER_00: Um so and then of course there is like you know, depending on your interest level, um, you know, there is various other books that are there every day.
1:21:31
SPEAKER_00: There is new books.
1:21:32
SPEAKER_02: This is lovely.
1:21:33
SPEAKER_02: This is really lovely.
1:21:34
SPEAKER_02: I think even these two are great examples and I think great directions for people to the audience to really go buy it, read it, and absorb what is there.
1:21:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, who's your uh who's your uh hero in the in your own field?
1:21:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh, who you look up to and say, Hey, uh, you know, I'm actually inspired by this person.
1:21:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh and can we can you can you talk about why that person inspired you and therefore uh you know uh that's that's something that you believe uh has been a key driver to whatever you are doing today with passion and purpose?
1:22:15
SPEAKER_00: Um I mean I think it's uh you know I mean what I'm doing with passion and purpose, that's um let me give you a couple different things, right?
1:22:29
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when I when I first started my career here um in the US, uh my first manager was extremely I mean he was fantastic.
1:22:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, actually even today when I close my eyes and think about you know how different things I mean I was just starting to learn the ropes and I didn't know, you know, how what are the different things out there and stuff like that.
1:22:53
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one thing he said is uh, you know, the curiosity component.
1:22:58
SPEAKER_00: So you need to, you know even if you don't know, always think everything logically, right?
1:23:05
SPEAKER_00: So always think uh logically.
1:23:08
SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, when you apply logic, even if you don't know certain technicalities, so you'll be able to answer the question logically and and uh um and drive that.
1:23:20
SPEAKER_00: So and then he also you know advised me always be curious, you know, keep asking questions, try to learn more, right?
1:23:26
SPEAKER_00: So you know, you're not asking questions to be like you know, to demonstrate you're smart or anything, it's you're asking questions just for your own learning.
1:23:34
SPEAKER_00: Um so he was a great mentor.
1:23:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I really, really liked it.
1:23:39
SPEAKER_00: I liked him, and then I followed a lot of things, you know, just being curious and being logical.
1:23:44
SPEAKER_00: That's till date.
1:23:45
SPEAKER_00: I just do that.
1:23:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, you meet clients every single day, and then you know, you're running from meetings back to back, and you know, a lot of times you're not prepared, you just go into the meeting and then they are asking you questions, right?
1:24:00
SPEAKER_00: So then you know, you don't have to have all the answers, all you have to have is a logical thinking.
1:24:05
SPEAKER_00: You know, why are they asking?
1:24:07
SPEAKER_00: What are they asking?
1:24:08
SPEAKER_00: Why, how should you respond?
1:24:09
SPEAKER_00: You know, if you are a logical thinker, I think you can you can run any meeting for almost you know half a day, but after that you need preparation.
1:24:20
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely anyway.
1:24:21
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of you know helped, and then uh, you know, I also really liked uh Frank Slotman, so he's the Snowflake CEO right now.
1:24:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh he wrote a book called Amp It Up very recently.
1:24:33
SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed that book very much.
1:24:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I liked his thinking, and you know, it's like no bullshit, you know, drive this thing, and I think there is an opportunity to amp up everything that we are doing in the company in terms of skill sets, in terms of what we do, uh, but we are not doing to the fullest at this point, right?
1:24:53
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there is always a way that you can amp up um you know how much we do and how much we grow.
1:25:00
SPEAKER_00: So I really like some of the concepts that he explained, and then you know, I'm trying to use that um you know in a lot of the things that I do also as well.
1:25:09
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
1:25:09
SPEAKER_00: So these things, some some things that come to mind, but you know, again, I read a lot of different stuff, and you know, I have tons of books uh here, and you know, I buy hundred dollars worth of book every month.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_02: Um so what do you do when you don't work?
1:25:29
SPEAKER_00: When I don't work, I mean, you know, I number one is you know I enjoy reading, and so I spend some time reading and stuff like that.
1:25:36
SPEAKER_00: And then I do take uh long walks.
1:25:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I walk every day, three and a half to four miles every single day.
1:25:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you know I enjoy, and and uh you know, this is something that's important, you know, when I walk, uh, it's no headsets, no nothing, so just walk, right?
1:25:54
SPEAKER_00: So just enjoy the nature, just see look around and see people, see the nature, see the birds, and that kind of thing, right?
1:26:02
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's helped me a lot.
1:26:06
SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
1:26:07
SPEAKER_02: So thanks, Sukumar.
1:26:08
SPEAKER_02: It was a lovely conversation.
1:26:12
SPEAKER_02: The perspectives that you shared on how marketing is getting transformed, some real life examples of how you've done it, uh, your own uh you know examples of how you keep up with uh how uh you know uh you're keeping pace with the changes that's happening in marketing.
1:26:30
SPEAKER_02: It was a phenomenal uh discussion, and thanks a lot for your time and lovely talking today.
1:26:38
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this episode.
1:26:41
SPEAKER_02: For selected links and details with it.
1:26:44
SPEAKER_02: www.contramines.com slash blog.
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