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Your Store Doesn’t Need More Automation. It Needs Better Retailing · The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, what if I got rid of all those hands in the pot?
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Then maybe I can sell these for much less expensive.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: And this was before Warby Parker and much before most of
0:09
SPEAKER_00: the direct-to-consumer brands that we now know came out.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: And so this idea of getting rid of the middleman was still new.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode of The Ecommerce Revolution Podcast.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm Ramin, your host.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Greg Sugar, owner and CEO of Bowties Limited of Vermont.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Bowties has been making men's tailored accessories in Middlebury, Vermont since 1993.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Bowties,
0:40
SPEAKER_01: neckties,
0:41
SPEAKER_01: cummerbunds,
0:42
SPEAKER_01: pocket squares,
0:43
SPEAKER_01: most of it cut and sewn to order by a small team in their own factory.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Greg is not the founder here.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: He bought the company in 2019.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Before that, he built the tie bar.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Greg, it is wonderful to have a veteran ecommerce entrepreneur here today.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for inviting me on.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: To a lot of people out there.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: But let's start back to the world of law and litigation, which is what you were doing.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: How did you end up doing ties?
1:55
SPEAKER_01: How does ties come in?
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Other than you probably wore ties a lot, I assume.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: How did you get into that?
2:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what got started.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: I was wearing a tie every day to work.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: One morning before work,
2:07
SPEAKER_00: my then two- or three-year-old son threw cereal on my tie that I had just purchased
2:13
SPEAKER_00: the day before, got it completely ruined, and thought, geez, I'm out $70 again.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: And then that led me to think, why are ties $70 in the first place?
2:22
SPEAKER_00: They just seem like they should be.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: So I did some quick research online,
2:26
SPEAKER_00: found this website that nobody had heard of at the time called Alibaba.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: And Alibaba, well,
2:32
SPEAKER_00: much like it is today,
2:33
SPEAKER_00: but in 2004,
2:34
SPEAKER_00: I found all these factories from overseas that manufacture neckties overseas,
2:39
SPEAKER_00: particularly China.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: And I found out that the ties, at least at the time, the silk woven ties were $2.10.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, why is this $2.10 tie $70?
2:51
SPEAKER_00: And started doing some reading,
2:52
SPEAKER_00: you know, there's licensing, there's wholesaling, there's distribution.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of hands in the pot.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like,
2:58
SPEAKER_00: what if I got rid of all those hands in the pot,
3:00
SPEAKER_00: then maybe I can sell these for much less expensive.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: And this was before Warby Parker and much before most of
3:07
SPEAKER_00: the direct-to-consumer brands that we now know came out.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: And so this idea of getting rid of the middleman was still new.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: We spent some time understanding the manufacturing of neckties,
3:21
SPEAKER_00: learned a little bit about design,
3:23
SPEAKER_00: and long story short,
3:25
SPEAKER_00: in six months,
3:26
SPEAKER_00: we had built a website,
3:28
SPEAKER_00: came up with our first collection of ties, and started in September of 2004.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: We went live with this.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: The key was that we sold all of our neckties For $15 each.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: Now again, we now live in this world of value.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Everyone sort of demands value when they buy something.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: But in 2004, believe it or not, that proposition wasn't as popular as it is now.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: So in other words, men actually probably preferred spending $50 or $70 on a necktie.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: They felt like they were getting something better.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: And we were basically saying, nope, you're going to get the same thing at $15.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: So that was our initial premise.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: That was our business model.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: And it worked.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's amazing.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: It was very revolutionary at the time.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember if you used,
4:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't even think the word DTC was even a word we use,
4:15
SPEAKER_01: but essentially that's what you were doing.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: You were looking to figure out how to go direct to consumer on this thing called
4:22
SPEAKER_01: the internet and selling to people.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: Now, at some point there was a store in Chicago as well.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: You guys opened up a store, correct?
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: And I just also want to take you back to 2004.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the big department stores didn't have websites or other...
4:37
SPEAKER_00: By the way, there were direct-to-consumer businesses.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: We just don't think of them that way.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Joseph A.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Bank, Brooks Brothers.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: Those were direct-to-consumer businesses that have been around forever.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: We think of it more in the e-commerce world.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: But a lot of those men's companies that sold ties either didn't have ties
4:52
SPEAKER_00: on their website or had a very limited selection.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: So really, my competition was other...
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Schmucks like me working in their basement trying to sell online.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So the competition was not as stiff, and it definitely helped me break through a little bit.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, years later, we opened up a store in Chicago.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: It was actually right after I sold the business.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: We were planning it as we were selling the business.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And the Chicago store thing for Thai Bar still exists.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: They had at one time expanded to five stores, but closed four of them.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, the post-sale...
5:25
SPEAKER_00: What happened with Tybar Post Sale is sort of like a story,
5:28
SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
5:28
SPEAKER_00: you hear a lot of times when you sell to private equity,
5:31
SPEAKER_00: and it just didn't go very well.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: It has since taken on a new private equity firm that's done a nicer job.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: I know the people that run it.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: They're good people.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: I like what I see in that company now, but it's different.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: They're We're obviously a huge competitor of ours now.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: My own company competes with me today.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: But we sell something much different.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: We're made in America.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: We're made to order.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: We produce much better fabrics than I think designs.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And we sort of cater to a different customer.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: They're much like sort of a younger, very focused, value-driven type of customer.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: And we're a little bit more upscale.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very interesting.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, just one more point or question there on the back then, what it was like.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was no social media.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: There was no social ads.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: We talked about Overture being maybe, you know, a little further down the road.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, you had access to that for pay-per-click advertising.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: But what did you do?
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, how did you drive customers and then eventually sales to Tybar back then?
6:30
SPEAKER_00: The answer was PR.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: We got a tremendous amount of PR.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: We were being worn by celebrities.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: We even did celebrity collaborations with athletes like Dwayne Wade
6:43
SPEAKER_00: and actors Jesse Tyler Ferguson.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: But you could find us on the red carpet, Saturday Night Live.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: We were everywhere.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: But more importantly, we were in the media.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: GQ Magazine put us in free earned media in their magazine for about seven years straight.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Every month, we were placed on models or celebrities with the credit.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's actually how we really grew the company.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe we ever spent,
7:07
SPEAKER_00: this is not an exaggeration,
7:08
SPEAKER_00: more than $5,000 on pay-per-click ads in an entire year.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: And by the end, we were doing $20 million.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: So can you imagine a marketing budget of $5,000?
7:20
SPEAKER_00: People are
7:22
SPEAKER_01: crying right now listening to this.
7:24
SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: They're crying right now.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: People say, how can I replicate what you did at Tybar?
7:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it doesn't exist.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: The idea of earned media doesn't even exist anymore.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: Everything is affiliate marketing and this hybrid model of pay to play.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: All that's changed, so you couldn't possibly replicate it.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: I can't do it with bow ties at Vermont, unfortunately.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: That's how it happened.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: And I remember we hired PR agents and agencies and helped get me into every piece
7:53
SPEAKER_01: of press out there.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And to this day, I still have a binder of all the press because that's all we had.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: That's all we had.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And I hustled myself.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: I did it myself for about the first four years.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: I dedicated most of my day to reaching out to people.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: I personally had some great success,
8:10
SPEAKER_00: but there was sort of like this point in time where I just couldn't get any higher.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: So GQ Magazine was introduced by one of my PR firms.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: But I was getting into a lot of local newspapers, which back then people read newspapers.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: And I was getting us into blogs that were fairly well read.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Media wasn't as diverse back then.
8:27
SPEAKER_00: People consumed their men's style media in very limited places.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: There were only a few well read blogs.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: There were maybe a couple, two or three blogs.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, it's just completely everywhere.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: You consume fashion advice in so many different areas,
8:46
SPEAKER_00: whether it's written or video or whatever.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: It's just everywhere.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: So even if you now do get some kind of earned media placement,
8:53
SPEAKER_00: it's not going to be seen by as many people.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: And certainly GQ is sort of the authority on men's style.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: It's probably lost some of its cachet that it had back then.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: Right.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, tell me just before we move on now to what's happening now,
9:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:08
SPEAKER_01: selling a company,
9:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:10
SPEAKER_01: we have a whole episode on this, which is how you and I ended up connecting.
9:15
SPEAKER_01: What is it like to sell a business,
9:18
SPEAKER_01: whether you're selling a private equity or you're selling to another individual?
9:22
SPEAKER_01: What one thing can you pull out from it and share with the audience that would help them?
9:26
SPEAKER_00: I've been on the buy side and the sales side several times
9:29
SPEAKER_00: because my career has evolved quite a bit.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: It kind of just first depends on the size of the business.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Are you dealing with investment bankers?
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Are you dealing with business brokers?
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Are you dealing with private equity?
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Are you dealing with just individual to individual sales?
9:43
SPEAKER_00: So it kind of depends.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: My tie bar experience,
9:46
SPEAKER_00: it was of the size where we had to hire an investment banker and we met
9:49
SPEAKER_00: with I think we met with seven private equity firms for day-long presentations.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, what to expect?
9:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, in that case, you do have to get everything in order.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: The bankers certainly help you.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: People always say, why'd you sell Tybar?
10:04
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, we were just doing so well.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: We were doubling our revenue and our EBITDA every year for three years in a row.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: And they said, well, then why would you sell it?
10:13
SPEAKER_00: And I go, no, that's why you sell it.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: You don't sell a company when it plateaus.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: You don't sell a company on the way down.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: You sell the company on the way up.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: And so it takes some discipline to say, okay,
10:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to sort of forego this potential,
10:25
SPEAKER_00: like massive hit I can have if I wait two or three years.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: But of course,
10:30
SPEAKER_00: you also take a massive chance in doing that,
10:32
SPEAKER_00: that the outside forces will change, your company will take some kind of hit.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, basically, we had gotten so lucky for nine years, I'm like, our luck's going to run out.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: So let's just sell the business before the luck runs out.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, certainly you get offered a certain amount of money and...
10:48
SPEAKER_00: How much money do you need?
10:50
SPEAKER_00: I looked at the numbers and I said, that sounds good to me.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to wait another year or two just to get it a little bigger and die
10:59
SPEAKER_00: with more money in my bank account.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: I just made that decision.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: I know there are a lot of people who go big.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Nine figures, billion dollar company.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: That wasn't my goal.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: My goal was to just sort of have a free life, raise my three kids, stress free.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: And I sold it at 40 and I'm 53 in the last 13 years.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've had a day of stress yet.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: People are crying again, by the way.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: They want that.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: They want that stress free.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: It's my proudest accomplishment professionally is that I have stress free.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: I love that story.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Sell when things are going really well.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: That's what they're coming for.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: They want that from you.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: We sold with opportunity.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: We talk about how I didn't do a lot of pay-per-click.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Really, buyers still want to see opportunity, even on the growth side.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: They looked at stores as a possibility, and they certainly looked at pay-per-clicks.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: They ramped up our pay-per-click ads when I sold it.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: That was the opportunity.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Really set it up perfectly.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Because if you pull every lever and then sell the company,
12:06
SPEAKER_00: buyers might look at it and say,
12:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't see the opportunity to do better than you are.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: But when you leave them something to do for themselves,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: I think that's how you end up finding more buyers and you even get
12:15
SPEAKER_00: a higher multiple.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, give them something to work with.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't try quite everything.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you see it a little much.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: I'll see companies now,
12:26
SPEAKER_00: and they're like, well, we've never gone on Amazon, so that's a huge opportunity.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, but Amazon is usually a losing proposition.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: You don't just open up an Amazon store and start making money.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you did 20 years ago, but you don't now.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: So don't wave your, well,
12:39
SPEAKER_00: we could just go on Amazon,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: make more money thing in front of me because there's no,
12:43
SPEAKER_00: you know, you open up and you don't do any sponsored ads, forget it.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: You're never going to sell a darn thing.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: And if you do sponsored ads, a great chance you're going to lose money at least for some time.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Best case scenario is after a year or two of sponsored ads, you start becoming profitable.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: I know there's some agencies that are going to tell us they could do it quicker,
12:58
SPEAKER_00: but generally speaking, that's the path.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, one more question about the past.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: In between the tie bar and bow ties, there was a men's bedding company, correct?
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Brand started, but close that down, right?
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: I had a non-compete that kept me out of men's apparel and accessories
13:15
SPEAKER_00: for five years,
13:15
SPEAKER_00: and I was like 40 and I was like, I think I want to do something again.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: I'd come up with this idea, again,
13:21
SPEAKER_00: one of these sort of experiences as a customer,
13:23
SPEAKER_00: went shopping for my new home and was looking for bedding and everything seemed
13:29
SPEAKER_00: to be pink and floral and turquoise.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I just want, I mean, I said masculine bedding.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that was the right word,
13:37
SPEAKER_00: but I was certainly looking for more neutral colors, design, and so forth.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: And at the time, nothing was there.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's when a lot of the bedding brands were just getting started.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: Bedding a box of the Casper models getting started.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: Some other bedding brands had just gotten started.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Parachute, Brooklinen, Bullen Branch.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, let's get in on this.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I...
13:59
SPEAKER_00: For the first time I had taken on partners and You know, I do like them personally.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't think we gelled professionally necessarily.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: We came out swinging.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: We had a great couple first years.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: And then as the conditions became a little more challenging,
14:14
SPEAKER_00: I think we just never really adjusted.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: I will say that we closed it after eight years, but we were still profitable.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Not a lot profitable, but we weren't losing money.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: We just sort of, the three of us had sort of lost interest.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: We all had different businesses at the time, different things going on.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: And so we just kind of shut it down.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: I loved the idea,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: and I think there were elements of it that could have done much better
14:37
SPEAKER_00: with better execution.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: We just didn't execute as well as we should have.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: That was a good lesson learned.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: Maybe ultimately it's better when you're on your own.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: For me,
14:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm hard to deal with.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: I take some blame for that.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: I'll be the first to say it.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's good that you recognize that.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: And it actually takes a lot to make that determination, right?
14:58
SPEAKER_01: We always want to try to work with other people, but it's not always the right path to go.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's move into and talk about Bowties.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And you purchased it in 2019, correct?
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: Again, my non-competed ended at that point.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: I put something up on LinkedIn.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm back in business.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: Anybody interested in selling their company?
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not doing another startup.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: I could do a separate podcast on why it makes more sense to buy a company than start one.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: And then the owners,
15:26
SPEAKER_00: who were the second owners of Bowties of Vermont,
15:28
SPEAKER_00: reached out to me, asked me if I wanted to join as a partner.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: I went out,
15:31
SPEAKER_00: visited the company,
15:32
SPEAKER_00: came back from That meeting and made an offer and said,
15:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do partners again.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Here's an offer for 100% of the business.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: We agreed to the price.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: The company was not doing as well as it had in the past.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: It was starting to struggle.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: I think the owners had gotten a little frustrated with the trajectory of the company.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: I actually said to myself, I built this other company, which was obviously a growth company.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: This is a company going in the opposite direction.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: It might be interesting to try something new, a turnaround.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I did.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And I bought, in essence, like a little bit of a turnaround company.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: And then certainly, you know, COVID hit a few months after and became a whole different animal.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And again,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how much we want to get into this,
16:19
SPEAKER_00: but I got into the mask business, like a lot of people.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: I basically emptied out our design library and made a bunch of cotton masks
16:27
SPEAKER_00: with our tie designs.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: And we became actually one of the biggest mask companies over a period of two years.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: I was doing over a half million dollars a month in meta ads.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we had gotten so large.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Increased our revenue ninefold, if you could believe it.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Just off of the masks?
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: It was a wild two years,
16:50
SPEAKER_00: and honestly,
16:52
SPEAKER_00: it took so much out of me that when COVID ended and the mask bonanza ended,
16:57
SPEAKER_00: I sort of scaled back and worked, and I have never really recovered.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: It really knocked me.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: I was working harder in those two years than I ever did at Thai Bar,
17:06
SPEAKER_00: and it just took a lot out of me,
17:08
SPEAKER_00: and I think that was the beginning of the end of my full-time job.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it still works full time, but I can't do what I did then.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: I can't do it again.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but the great news is that coming out of COVID was really tough.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people struggled over inventory,
17:26
SPEAKER_00: sort of like the leveling off of spending online,
17:30
SPEAKER_00: and we've turned our company around.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: We are now doing better than we did pre-COVID.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Our revenue is over pre-COVID numbers,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: which is,
17:38
SPEAKER_00: for a Thai company,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: super exciting,
17:39
SPEAKER_00: because if you think about the direction that we were already going in,
17:43
SPEAKER_00: it was already going casual, but COVID expedited all of that, and nobody...
17:47
SPEAKER_00: I own a tie business.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm not wearing a tie.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, nobody wears a tie.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: And so the fact that we've reached these numbers, we're above that is great.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: We're up over 45% this year, and we're busier than ever.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: My biggest challenge right now is hiring.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to find American cut-and-sew manufacturers,
18:04
SPEAKER_00: you know, and I don't want to go overseas.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: After the COVID situation, you scaled back.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: How else have you run the company differently, I guess, than when you acquired?
18:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you acquired it right in the midst of the beginning of a storm.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, you got all in, working long, long days and hours.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: And now you scale back somebody there running the day-to-day operations,
18:26
SPEAKER_01: or are you still very, very deeply involved, even though it's not?
18:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's me.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm the CEO.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: I still run it full time.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: I happen to have two great people that help me run it from the office side.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Someone who's been with me for almost probably six of the seven years.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: She's amazing.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: I call her my chief of staff.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: She's done just an exceptional job for me.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: I recently hired my daughter who finished college.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: She's only been with us three months, but it's amazing how quick it's in the genes or something.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: She's picked it up really fast.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: And the two of them have really helped me.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: I think get the company doing things that I don't always have time for.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: They're good decision makers.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: They're like me.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: They just make a decision.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And I always think people just overanalyze the hell out of everything.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: And I've tried to teach them that that's not how I work.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: Just make a decision.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: Go forward.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: If it doesn't work out, then we won't do it anymore.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: You're not married to your decisions.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And so they've been really helpful.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Our staff,
19:26
SPEAKER_00: we have production staff in Vermont,
19:28
SPEAKER_00: which is where the company operates in Middlebury, Vermont.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: We have two production managers who are exceptional, and they run the production side.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And then we even have a little bit of an office manager there who does
19:39
SPEAKER_00: a wonderful job overseeing everything.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Just great employees.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have people that have worked for us since the 90s.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing, right?
19:48
SPEAKER_00: Since the 90s.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the things I've learned,
19:52
SPEAKER_00: not that you asked, but I'm going to tell you anyway.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: One of the things I learned when you acquire a company is you've got
19:55
SPEAKER_00: to be very careful with the office culture.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: It sounds so cliche,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: but especially with this,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: Vermont people and Greg Sugar, the Jew from Florida, are not really the same.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And so I went there and I can feel the difference.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you know what?
20:13
SPEAKER_00: This is your office.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: This is your company and we're going to stick with your culture.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: And so I go there and I'm a guest at my own business and that's fine.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: That's the way it should be because it really is their business.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm only there...
20:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm not there to interfere, interrupt, distract, whatever.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: You guys do your thing.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Here's the goals that I want.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I want to implement.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: But you guys, you're in control of the office culture.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And it works really well.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: And we get along wonderfully.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: We're just a little different.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: They think I'm nuts.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: I am a little nuts, but they really think I'm nuts.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: You put your ego aside and not have to bulldoze your philosophy and your way
20:56
SPEAKER_01: of doing it on them.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: I wonder what that feels like.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine walking into my company, yet I'm a guest in my own company.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a very interesting feeling.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't even have my own office there.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: I just sit at some random empty desk.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't have an office.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's,
21:13
SPEAKER_00: again, there's a lot to be learned about when you buy a company, what you do.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember I changed the logo in the first couple of weeks.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: They didn't like it.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And they, you know what I mean?
21:21
SPEAKER_00: And obviously they don't really care about the logo,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: but I think they didn't like the idea of like,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: here's some new guy coming in and making wholesale changes right out of the gate.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: So I learned a lot on like how much you need to do early on.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: You've got to do a lot of listening and not a lot of doing early on.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And even if you have an idea that you want to implement soon,
21:41
SPEAKER_00: maybe it makes sense to wait a little bit or get other people's opinions in front
21:46
SPEAKER_00: of you so they at least feel like they've been heard.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot through that process for sure.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about the American manufacturing process.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that you have a hard time finding people to do that,
21:57
SPEAKER_01: but I mean, it's putting your foot, continuing to keep it in America.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: That's an amazing thing and a beautiful thing,
22:03
SPEAKER_01: but you must run into probably tariffs, I assume, the raw materials.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: I believe I read somewhere that you got on a plane and went to speak your mind
22:13
SPEAKER_00: to I speak my mind without a plane.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: So last year I was fortunate enough to start lobbying Congress,
22:25
SPEAKER_00: the National Retail Federation,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: the NRF,
22:28
SPEAKER_00: invited me to come down along A lot of people tell the important stories
22:31
SPEAKER_00: of how small businesses were getting really hurt by tariffs and I think I like
22:35
SPEAKER_00: to let them know
22:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm the very company you're trying to protect, and I'm getting screwed.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: All of my inputs are foreign and I have to pay tariffs on them.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: And the reason they're foreign inputs is because there is no American factory
23:06
SPEAKER_00: that makes silk jacquard that I can use for ties in the United States.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: So it's not like I forewent.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I didn't buy from America.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't like, I don't want the silk from America.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: I want to go overseas.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't an option.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: I have to buy from China and I have to buy from Italy.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a choice.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: And so I got really involved.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I actually drafted a bill that was adopted by Senator Peter Welch from Vermont.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: He wrote it up in the Senate bill.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: My exact bill that I wrote, he put it on U.S. Senate letterhead.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: It was amazing.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: His staff literally handed it to me.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: They're like, this is the bill you wrote.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: Here, it's on his letterhead.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: He's looking for a co-sponsor.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Never happened because every time we spoke with a Republican— Even though many
23:50
SPEAKER_00: of them stared me in the face,
23:52
SPEAKER_00: understood our plight,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: understood every nuance that I described,
23:59
SPEAKER_00: they said, we're just going to let the president run with this.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, you've got to be fucking kidding me.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, really, guys?
24:06
SPEAKER_00: It's one thing if you don't even understand.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Remember, they always say, oh, foreign countries pay tariffs.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: That's just not true.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, I guess you're just too stupid to understand.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: The people I met with understood everything.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And they still said, we're just going to do what the president says.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what are you doing in Congress?
24:24
SPEAKER_00: You don't sign up for Congress to just rubber stamp shit.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Even if it was to be a corrupt,
24:30
SPEAKER_00: shitty senator, you still had a goal of being a corrupt, shitty senator.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: They're not even doing that.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: They're just rubber stamping or just stepping back and letting him do whatever
24:38
SPEAKER_00: the hell he wants because they want to stay in power and they know otherwise.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to get too political, but that's...
24:44
SPEAKER_00: That's what happened.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
24:45
SPEAKER_00: the small businesses that I went with to lobby,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: half of them are Republicans, the owners of these small businesses.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: And they would literally tell people in the Trump administration, do you guys not understand?
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, we're your supporters and you're not listening to us.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: This is not a partisan thing.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's interesting.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: You are doing the thing that they want.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: You are manufacturing, continuing to manufacture in the United States of America.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: I would think that there would be incentives to do that, to continue that.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, yeah,
25:18
SPEAKER_01: why not just pick up,
25:19
SPEAKER_01: pack up and go to another, go somewhere else where cheaper labor.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: But it goes against the ethos of what this company is all about and you don't want to do that.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's a challenging situation.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would just shut the company down at that point because our brand is made in America.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: We're just another company if we import from China.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: And I try to explain.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: We are a proud American manufacturer.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: We wear it on our sleeve.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: It's a big marketing push for us.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: You're not listening
25:50
SPEAKER_01: to us.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: It continues to frustrate me because here we are still battling more tariffs even today.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: I think President Trump was threatening to shut down foreign trade
25:59
SPEAKER_00: with certain businesses if the Fed doesn't raise its rates.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: Interesting times on that end.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Well, but let's talk about,
26:09
SPEAKER_01: you know, we joked a few times about, you know, we had no marketing back in the day.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Our tech stack was awful back in the day.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: There was no tech stack.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't even think that word existed.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: That word didn't exist.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: There was no such thing
26:23
SPEAKER_00: as Shopify.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: There was no such thing as Magento.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: Every website was custom built on its own platform.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: That was it.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: So now the site is on Shopify and you guys,
26:34
SPEAKER_01: has it always been on Shopify or did that transition happen after you came on board?
26:38
SPEAKER_01: I bought it.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: It was on a custom platform and it was, it was a mess.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: That was one of the things I had to do right away.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't give a shit about the office culture.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: We need to get on Shopify right now.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Our website was a disaster.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: So yes, I made that change right away.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: And so yeah,
26:55
SPEAKER_00: we've been on Shopify, and I know there are other websites that use other platforms.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why you wouldn't use Shopify.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: It's just everything, all the tech is made for Shopify.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Why would you fight against that?
27:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: It's a funny thing that people do want to fight against it.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: I always like to say that go after a platform.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: As long as they're good and innovating, just keep doing that.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: Somebody maybe somewhere is building the next greatest version of Shopify.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Until that person launches that and it's been tested,
27:23
SPEAKER_01: why would you waste your time I'm fighting for something else.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Just do this.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: So we talk about, you know, like everybody else builds for Shopify, all the apps and everything.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned you guys use Rebuy as one of your apps.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, how does it work for you?
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Just because I think people are very interested out there when they,
27:40
SPEAKER_01: you know, like, oh, my God, I've heard of Rebuy or I haven't heard of Rebuy.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: What it does for you guys?
27:45
SPEAKER_00: To take a step back,
27:46
SPEAKER_00: I would recommend anyone in ecommerce to consider going to Shop Talk every year.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: They have two shows, but the main one is in Las Vegas in March.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: And the reason I recommend it,
27:57
SPEAKER_00: the panels and speakers, I guess, are okay, depending on who they are.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: But they have this exhibit hall, and a lot of the tech companies are there.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: They do a great job of you being able to set up one-on-one meetings with the right companies.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I meet a lot of the tech companies because there's so many of them.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not to say that they're all good at Shop Talk,
28:14
SPEAKER_00: but they're a place where you can see so many of them at once.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: A lot of the tech that we use, I've met from there.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: And Rebuy was one of them.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they do a lot more than just this, but for us, they do in-cart recommendations.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't necessarily mean like people who bought X also bought Y.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot more specific and for what we sell.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: We need that.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: We sell to, every day I'd say about 60% of our customers are new.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: 60 to 70% are new.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: Because we do a lot of event sales.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Black tie weddings, black tie events, weddings.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: In other words, people have never bought a tie or bow tie before and they need it.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: So they don't know what the hell they're doing.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And what we do is we set up Rebuy to,
29:02
SPEAKER_00: in essence be,
29:03
SPEAKER_00: I told the people in my office who helped me merchandise for Rebuy, I said,
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Think of yourself as working in a store and a guy comes in and says,
29:12
SPEAKER_00: I have an event,
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I've never bought a bow tie before, can you help me figure out what I should wear?
29:18
SPEAKER_00: And so you, in essence, upsell.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: You upsell them, because they walk in and they're like, I need a black bow tie.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And for us, I mean,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: if I had a store and I had a guy walking with a black bow tie,
29:26
SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure my salesman gets him out of there with a cummerbund,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: a white pocket square, and a pair of socks.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: And so that's how we set up Rebuy.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: We try to be really strategic with our suggestions.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: And so for us, it's been great.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: That's probably been the number one thing.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: They have the post-sale thing as well.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make as much of an impact.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: It's not terrible.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: That's just more value-driven, like, hey, 15% off this if you buy it now.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: But the in-card experience, again,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: for our business has been fantastic in suggesting other items to people
30:01
SPEAKER_00: who have not been there before.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Only an old school entrepreneur would say,
30:07
SPEAKER_01: take somebody on a journey of what it's like to be in the physical store.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: That's key.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I do that all the time because that is really truly,
30:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is where commerce happened, you know.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: Before we had all of this, and it's always good to know, what would you do?
30:21
SPEAKER_01: How would you bring that world into this world?
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, the truth is that if you were sitting in your kitchen counter and you had
30:30
SPEAKER_00: the ability to take two steps to the right and you're in a store or you shop online,
30:34
SPEAKER_00: Everyone would shop the store.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Everybody.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: The only reason we shop online is for its convenience.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: So in other words, the in-store experience is better 10 out of 10 times.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: So how do you recreate that?
30:50
SPEAKER_00: And yes, there is the virtual reality technology that exists.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I think that's nonsense.
30:56
SPEAKER_00: That's misunderstanding what people need.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: They don't need the 3D visual.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've ever seen some of this virtual reality technology.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't need that.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: That's nonsensical.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Something on our website called Camoera where you could put the bow tie
31:12
SPEAKER_00: that you're selecting on your photo or your video.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Like you just turn on the video and it throws the bow tie on.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: So you could put on your suit and tie and then start shopping for bow ties and get
31:21
SPEAKER_00: a sense for what it looks like.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: That helps.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: That's what bridges the gap a little bit.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: It's not perfect, but it's something.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: So what we should all be striving to do is recreate the in-person experience the best we can.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds old school, but it's the truth.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Everybody would shop in person if it were right outside their home.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, 100%, 100%.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great takeaway for entrepreneurs that don't get so pulled into all
31:52
SPEAKER_01: the tech and everything like that.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: Just take a step back and look and see how would you do it in the real world,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: and is there a way to bring that here into the online world?
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Are there any other apps, anything else?
32:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what about Shopify's world?
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Any shop app?
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Do you guys play in that space?
32:12
SPEAKER_01: Collabs,
32:13
SPEAKER_01: sidekick is their big thing now where they're pushing the little sidekick guy
32:17
SPEAKER_01: on everybody to chat.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sidekick's been great because you don't have to pull reports all the time.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: You just type in what you want.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I will tell you that we are having issues with accuracy.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'll get a number and I'm like, that doesn't sound right.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: It's sort of like you do with chat or Claude.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you have to push it and say, are you sure, buddy?
32:34
SPEAKER_00: And then you realize that they're not right.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: See, sidekick's been, you know, But, listen, loyalty points work.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: I think you need a really good loyalty program.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: People love loyalty programs, but only when they're, like, generous.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: So we do, they say between 3% and 5% should be...
32:55
SPEAKER_00: The rebate, the points that you get.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: So we go to 5%, we go on the high end.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: We have triggers that go out,
33:03
SPEAKER_00: automated emails that go out to customers once they've earned their $5 or $10
33:07
SPEAKER_00: or $15.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Those are very successful automated emails.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: So I truly believe in loyalty programs.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: And I also, I will say this, we used to do the 15% off first time customers.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: We did some A-B testing a year and a half ago and realized that people at
33:26
SPEAKER_00: that point are already committed to buying from you.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: So I think you're giving away 15%.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in the first-time customer discount.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm a firm believer again.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: So maybe if you're selling a pure commodity that works,
33:41
SPEAKER_00: but generally speaking, I don't think it's a great idea.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: To get that new customer.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: We've got some clients that are doing content,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: the how to's,
33:50
SPEAKER_01: how to do this and how to do that as it relates to their brand and their product.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: And those seem to actually be interesting because it's all of a sudden breaking the mold.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Everybody's just used to seeing 10 or 15% off and all
34:03
SPEAKER_01: a sudden you're seeing Well,
34:04
SPEAKER_01: a little piece of content to learn how to,
34:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:07
SPEAKER_01: have somebody who does wigs,
34:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
34:09
SPEAKER_01: how to offering a piece of content in exchange for the email address rather than
34:13
SPEAKER_01: that discount.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's interesting.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: I had not seen that.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: We're always looking for something new like that.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Although people, I think, expect content to be free.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, if all they have to do is give their email, it's basically free, right?
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that idea.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: I might borrow that.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, try that out.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how to tie a bow tie, I guess.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, in the old days, that used to be one of the top 10 searches on YouTube.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: I remember.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's still true, but that
34:38
SPEAKER_00: was a top 10 thing, yeah.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: I remember, I guess, that retention marketing, if you will.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Email marketing.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: You said something very interesting back in the day about people sending out too many emails.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: You guys at Tybar, you only did like once a month, right?
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Once a month.
34:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, obscenity.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: Email obscenity is what you called it, I think.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that sounds like me.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think every brand is different.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: The customer base is different.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: I am like now in this place where some of the brands I love are sending about three
35:07
SPEAKER_00: to four a day.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And they're really challenging me.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: And they certainly are not leaving a good taste in my mouth.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: We send three a week.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: And there are customers who don't like it.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: And I know you can update your preferences, but we did that for a little bit.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: And people either weren't using it or were basically unsubscribing to all.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: So they weren't using it properly.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: I got rid of that.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: I didn't like updating preferences.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: The idea when you do email marketing is you're supposed to do one of three things.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: This has always been the rule of email marketing.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: New, discounted, or content.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Those are the three things.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: A lot of brands force content because the truth is You write all this great content
35:49
SPEAKER_00: and most of it gets deleted because content means more reading
35:52
SPEAKER_00: and everyone's got ADD and nobody wants to read an email that they didn't ask for.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: So I don't believe that content is getting read anymore.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's really like new and promos.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: For us, we used to introduce, for Bowties of Vermont, we used to introduce new ties every month.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: So what I did was I broke it up.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And I decided I'm going to just do it once a week.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: So every week we introduce about three or four new designs rather than 12 once a month.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: So now I have an excuse to email them every Tuesday.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: And if you're a bow tie guy, it's like pornography.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: You're so excited.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Every Tuesday, you get to look at new designs.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: They don't buy every Tuesday, but they love that there's new designs.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: If you're a tie guy, you're super excited to just look at the new colors and the new styles.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: And our open rates for those emails every week are pretty good
36:45
SPEAKER_00: because they just want to look at it.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: I can't say that the click-through rates are good.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't do a teaser where it's like, oh, you want to see them?
36:51
SPEAKER_00: Click here.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: I show them.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: But our customers really like it and our unsubscribe rate is basically at a point
36:58
SPEAKER_00: where I feel like everyone knows we email three times a week.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't like it, you can get out and that's fine.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: I like that consistency.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: You're keeping it like on a certain day.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: Tuesday, Friday, Sunday.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: Tuesday, Friday, Sunday.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: But again, every brand is different, in my opinion.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of it depends.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what happens when you just sell like sort of an evergreen product?
37:20
SPEAKER_00: Like I had a friend that sold metal collar stays.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many emails can you send a week or in a month about metal collar stays?
37:28
SPEAKER_00: Like it was a great product, did great business.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: But what are you emailing them about every week?
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Look, we still have metal collar.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: There's still metal.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: There's still collar stays.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Like there's nothing to email them about.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about acquisition.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: So to acquire,
37:43
SPEAKER_01: paid ads,
37:44
SPEAKER_01: I assume,
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Facebook ads are running,
37:46
SPEAKER_01: lots of ads are running all the time,
37:48
SPEAKER_01: or is it very strategic in certain times of the year?
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we have our budget.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: We focus more heavily on Google.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: We use meta for more bottom of the funnel type of thing,
37:59
SPEAKER_00: higher intent customers, and we use Google.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: Google probably takes up 75% of our marketing spend.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: But what we really focused on starting in January of 2025, I said, I'm going in on SEO and AEO.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's where I'm going to start focusing.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: I hate to say it, I used Upwork.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: I found an incredible person out of India.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: I use her.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I've been using her for almost two years now, right?
38:25
SPEAKER_00: And she's increased our SEO rankings.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: We do nicely in AEO.
38:30
SPEAKER_00: Meaning AI search results.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: And that's where the bulk of our new sales are coming from.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: We happen to do very well in ads, but you can only scale so high when you're selling bow ties.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: It's such a niche product.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: We pretty much, if you're searching for a bow tie, you're gonna come across us somewhere.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: You're not, you know what I mean?
38:51
SPEAKER_00: So like, we've pretty much spent as much as we can spend in that world.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: So SEO has been extremely effective for us, to be totally honest.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: And I credit some of our growth to that for sure.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: I'll say one other thing for customer acquisition,
39:08
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's totally gotten lost, is chat.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: Everybody has gone to AI chat.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: And I looked at so much different chat software in the last year and a half.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: And everyone prides themselves on their AI chat.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: And I always said, I don't want AI.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: I just want live chat.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Greg.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm a live person.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: How can I help you?
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Our conversion rate with new customers who chat live with us, I don't even know the percent.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: It's high.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Because again, it's like a salesperson.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: If you walked in a store and you said,
39:45
SPEAKER_00: I need help, and a robot walked up to you, you'd walk out.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: If a human being walked up to you, you'd be much more likely to talk, engage, and possibly buy.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: And so we instituted live chat, and our sales went up from that as well.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: So we don't even have AI.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Even when we're closed, We don't turn on AI.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: We say, we're closed, email's here, and someone's going to get back to you in the morning.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't think you need to complicate it beyond that.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: And I will tell you, there are so many people we chat with who thank us that we're not AI.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: It is the most common statement given in our chat box.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: The most common thing, I'm so happy you're not a robot.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: That is such another great takeaway because I guess that's you going back to
40:27
SPEAKER_01: the way it used to be because that's all we had back.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we didn't even have live chat up until a certain point.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: It was literally, they would call, right?
40:36
SPEAKER_01: They would call and make sure you were there.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that you're a real company.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: I used to get that all the time.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to make sure you're a real company.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: I'll go online, thank you.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: And then they'd hang up, and then you'd see an order come through.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm sure that was that person.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: But now, it's a good point.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: I think we've gotten carried away with automation and AI.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: And listen, it's great for so many things, and I'm a big fan of what it can do.
41:01
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes, again,
41:03
SPEAKER_01: somebody walks into your physical store,
41:06
SPEAKER_01: you're not sending the robot, at least not right now.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: You're not sending the robot.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: You're asking them questions.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: If that chat can proactively pop up on a page where they're just sitting
41:17
SPEAKER_01: and maybe not doing anything and you offer help to answer a few questions.
41:22
SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to sit behind a computer, that's the only problem, is that right?
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to sit, but get it on the mobile phone.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: The beauty of it is,
41:28
SPEAKER_00: is you're doing your other work and when there's a chat request, the ding goes off.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: Listen, if we were a hundred million dollar I'd be touting AI chat software.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: We can handle 10 to 20 chats a day while we're also doing other work.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: And there's three of us.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, I'm one of them.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: And I have no problem chatting and going back to my spreadsheet.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: Chatting and going back to my design work.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: It's not that challenging to do.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: And those who don't want to spend money on,
41:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:56
SPEAKER_01: even live chat software,
41:58
SPEAKER_01: they can just go get Shopify Inbox,
41:59
SPEAKER_01: which is,
42:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
42:00
SPEAKER_01: a rudimentary,
42:02
SPEAKER_01: it's live,
42:03
SPEAKER_01: so to speak,
42:03
SPEAKER_01: but at least it's something that sits in the bottom corner that can answer
42:07
SPEAKER_01: a question.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: And the fact that it has increased sales and acquisition and people coming in
42:12
SPEAKER_01: the door feeling more comfortable,
42:13
SPEAKER_01: that should speak volumes right there to other entrepreneurs out there.
42:18
SPEAKER_01: And PR, any, is still doing PR at all?
42:21
SPEAKER_01: Touching?
42:21
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, we're fortunate enough to get PR hits anyway.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, we're going to appear in the Wall Street Journal's fall fashion.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we've done some TV shows.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we get some PR, but it's all incidental.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: We're not actually seeking it.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: And when we get these PR hits, they're not even that great.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: I was actually interviewed on ABC News last week,
42:41
SPEAKER_00: and I gave a nice plug for our company, and I explained everything about us.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: We didn't really see the needle move.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: I was on CNBC last year,
42:48
SPEAKER_00: CNN last year, a little bit of a hit, but not in the old days.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: If I were on, I remember I actually did a segment on Fox News and everything lit up.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is like 15 years ago and like things lit up.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: We were in the Chicago Tribune.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: Crazy, you know, like, but now you're in media.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't really do much.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: No, gosh, I miss those days, Greg.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: Me too.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: We got into the Wall Street Journal,
43:13
SPEAKER_01: we had a toast writing service, like an actual guy wrote toasts for weddings.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: And we got into the Wall Street Journal with one other company that was doing it.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: It just took off from there and those moments.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: I think I should probably pull that article out and read it again
43:31
SPEAKER_01: and make myself feel all happy about the old days and what it used to be like.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: That's great.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: Tell me,
43:37
SPEAKER_01: just as we wrap things up,
43:38
SPEAKER_01: You have started a business,
43:41
SPEAKER_01: sold it, bought into another business along the way, started another one.
43:45
SPEAKER_01: You've had lots of entrepreneurial experience.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: People almost come to you all the time and ask you,
43:51
SPEAKER_01: Greg, I'm just getting started or I'm thinking about this.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: What do you tell them, not just about ecommerce, but just about being an entrepreneur?
44:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I taught entrepreneurship for almost seven years,
44:03
SPEAKER_00: I think, in college down here at Florida Atlantic University.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: There's so much you can say.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: One of the things is this idea of working hard is table stakes.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: If you have to tell an entrepreneur to work hard,
44:14
SPEAKER_00: then they're probably not really meant to be an entrepreneur.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: I think you have to be realistic.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: I think you have to realize that creating a great product
44:27
SPEAKER_00: Understanding how difficult it is to acquire a customer,
44:31
SPEAKER_00: how many exposures are required,
44:33
SPEAKER_00: what return rates are really like, the cost of shipping.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: They come up with their gross margins,
44:40
SPEAKER_00: and depending on what they're selling,
44:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, that's going to cost you $30 to ship that thing.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: Have you even considered that you're going to have to charge shipping to cover that?
44:48
SPEAKER_00: There's so many different things that people don't think about.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: There's still a lot of people that are on this mistaken belief that if I build
44:56
SPEAKER_00: a website and sell a great product, I'm going to be a successful business.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's also,
45:01
SPEAKER_00: by the way,
45:02
SPEAKER_00: it's hard to create a great product that doesn't already exist,
45:06
SPEAKER_00: that already doesn't have a ton of competition.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to stand out.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: And I don't try to talk people out of it,
45:11
SPEAKER_00: but that's why I'm like so down on starting a business and I'm much more bullish
45:17
SPEAKER_00: on buying a business.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: Buy a customer base, buying recurring revenue, buying a staff, buying infrastructure, goodwill.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: You might as well just step into something rather than try to build it from scratch.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, there's still success stories of people building it from scratch, but not that many.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: The problem is that we hear about the success stories and we say, oh, I could do that.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: But there's a much larger graveyard of dead brands that never made it.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: And through the years, I've met so many entrepreneurs who were then looking to raise money.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, well, tell me what your valuation is.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: It was always an unrealistic,
45:58
SPEAKER_00: stupid valuation with no correlation to their revenue or their EBITDA.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you're not going to raise money.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: And if you stick to this number,
46:07
SPEAKER_00: you're going to end up being out of business because you're not going to survive.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know one story of all the people I've spoken to through the years
46:14
SPEAKER_00: where they actually survive.
46:15
SPEAKER_00: They all eventually go out of business.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: So if you're struggling,
46:19
SPEAKER_00: you think you have something,
46:20
SPEAKER_00: you just need to raise money and stuff,
46:23
SPEAKER_00: be a little more realistic about your valuation.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: It should be based on something.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: And remember, it's better to have 10% of something than 100% of nothing.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: So be ready to give up a lot of equity if you really believe in the product.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: There's a good chance you're not gonna make it.
46:37
SPEAKER_00: It's too hard.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: It is very challenging.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: And so it's the buy versus build model.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: Having an existing customer base is huge, and that is what you bought into.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: You bought into that with bow ties, and now you're there to
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Continue to take it to another level.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: That's the hope.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: With your expertise.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: So do you say at the end, in your experience, is it luck, timing, or grit?
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Which one is it?
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, is it the hard work?
47:06
SPEAKER_01: Is it the...
47:07
SPEAKER_01: Lucky, you got to be in the right place at the right time.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: So to succeed,
47:12
SPEAKER_00: you need luck,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: but you will never encounter luck unless you're working hard
47:17
SPEAKER_00: and putting yourself out there and exposing yourself to the chance of getting lucky.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: So you have to like, luck doesn't come find you.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: You have to like get out there and then luck can happen.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to say that luck will happen, but you need luck.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: And if you're not doing the right things, luck can't find you.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: So anyone who's ever told you that they succeeded without luck is full of shit.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: That is a perfect way to end it right there.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
47:42
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
47:42
SPEAKER_01: Greg, this has been just filled with nostalgic moments, filled with great information.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: We're going to put some screenshots up.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Definitely want to put up the tie bar.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: That picture that I saw just brought back such great memories of what websites used
47:59
SPEAKER_01: to look like as they were in their raw form.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: Talk about really good call to actions, by the way.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: The old sites didn't have...
48:08
SPEAKER_01: It's right here, a picture and a little button.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't anything fancy.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: We just clicked and just buy.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: That's what we wanted you to do.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: I know.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: It was just so much easier back then.
48:20
SPEAKER_01: The younger folks that are listening to this,
48:22
SPEAKER_01: when it comes out, they're like, look at those two older guys.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, boomers talking about the old days of the internet.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: But hey, the old days, that is how it was created.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: And we learned a lot of great lessons.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and Tybar was started on a $50,000 home equity loan.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine trying to start a consumer products business on $50,000 today?
48:41
SPEAKER_00: You'd go through it in a month.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: It would be it.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: I think your advice would be to that entrepreneur, don't do that.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, Greg, absolutely appreciate you coming on today.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: It's been fantastic.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: Bowties Limited, LTD. We'll get all that information in the show notes.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: People go check it out.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: Phenomenal bowties and, you know, made in America.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Incredibly important.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: There's definitely many We wish you the best of luck.
49:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's all we have today, folks.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for joining us.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of The Ecommerce Revolution podcast.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: You can catch all our past episodes on Substack,
49:40
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49:45
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49:48
SPEAKER_01: We'll be back with another episode soon.