Latest / Yes And Land / Little Mermaid Communication: TALK Framework with Chalise Westenkow

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Little Mermaid Communication: TALK Framework with Chalise Westenkow · Yes And Land

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  So I help people make good financial decisions,
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  typically when the stakes are high and emotions
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  are high and when communication matters. Many
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  times communication breaking down is one of the
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  things that really leads to a lot of other problems.
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  When communication breaks down, then people start
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  looking for the validation somewhere else. She
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  knew what dad expected. He had very high expectations.
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  He wasn't willing to have a conversation, wasn't
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  willing to talk about it. What he says goes.
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  What 16 -year -old likes that? He needs to connect
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  with her in a way that's not my way or the highway.
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  And by asking questions to open up that dialogue
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  so that she feels like it's a safe place to communicate.
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  If I'm thinking while you're talking about the
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  next thing that I'm going to say, am I really
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  being present? I think people, when you're having
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  a conversation, they're not always going to remember
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  the words that we're using, but they will remember
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  how they felt. Welcome to Yes And Land, where
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  we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today.
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  And we say and to the possibility, growth, and
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  imagination of tomorrow. All right, welcome to
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  Yes and Land. We are very excited for our guest
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  today and very excited for the topic today, which
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  I think is very on point for society today, for
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  where life is at, for where people are at. And
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  that topic today is really about communication.
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  And our guest today is Shalise, wonderful individual
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  who I've known for a number of years. Very excited
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  to have her on, breaking down some things for
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  us today, helping us understand how to be better
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  communicators. She and her profession has to
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  be an expert communicator, frankly. as a certified
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  financial planner, certified divorce financial
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  analyst. I think you have some other acronyms
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  there. I don't know them all, but they're all
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  really great. And they're all very wonderful
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  and require a high degree of ability to communicate
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  effectively, I believe. So it's gonna be fun
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  to talk about that today. And we're gonna do
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  it through the lens of the Little Mermaid. Yes.
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  Which is gonna be fun. Yep. Which is gonna be
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  fun. So, Chalice, let's start out here. What
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  I always like to do is kind of give our audience
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  a little bit of background just to kind of know
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  a little bit more about you, kind of sets the
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  stage for kind of where you ended up in your
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  career and then also sets the stage for the topic
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  of communication. So give us this little breakdown
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  of like, where did you come from? Who is Shalice?
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  Wow, that's a loaded question. I mean, yeah,
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  you mentioned it. I'm a CFP. I work in divorce.
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  I'm a financial planner. So I help people make
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  good financial decisions, typically when the
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  stakes are high and emotions are high and when
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  communication matters. So it helps. I use it.
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  I use communication daily. The better communicator
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  we are, that we can convey what's important to
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  clients, usually it ends better. So let's take
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  it even further back, though. That's career stuff.
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  Tell us about, like, where are you from originally?
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  Once upon a time, I was born in Sandy, Utah.
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  Sandy, Utah. So not far from here. Just a stone's
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  throw from where we're at in South Jordan. Love
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  it. I grew up in Draper. I went to Alta High
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  School. I went to the University of Utah. And
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  you, growing up, we just talked about this in
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  the pre -show, you have two siblings, but not
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  biological siblings. Nope. Technically, they
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  are adopted. Tell me more about that. What was
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  that like? It was awesome. Yeah, my mom and dad,
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  my mom couldn't have kids after me. And so they
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  tried and tried and they did all the things.
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  Back then, IVF was not as successful as it is
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  now. So it didn't work and they struggled. And
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  so adoption just was the method we needed to
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  complete our family. Yeah. It was great. And
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  your parents ended up adopting two. Two, yeah.
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  My sister and my brother. And when your parents
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  adopted your sister, how old were you? 11. Okay.
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  And then your brother? 15, I think. So you were
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  a tween and then a teenager. Yeah. But you handled
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  it like a champ because you said like it was
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  wonderful. I mean, I was a little older, 11 years
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  between me and my sister. So it was fun. It was
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  great. So you didn't experience, because sometimes
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  what biological children will experience when
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  suddenly there's this new. person in the mix
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  especially when it comes through something like
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  an adoption there's a bit of jealousy or there's
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  difficulty because a lot of attention is paid
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  to that new child but that was not a thing for
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  you No, no. My parents were really good about
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  not forcing me to babysit. You know, I still
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  got to play with my friends and I could babysit
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  when I wanted. It was no, it was lovely. My sister
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  was born on my birthday party. So my birthday
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  was October is October 10th and hers was the
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  11th. So it was always fun growing up. Yeah.
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  Parties. Good. So you then, I think you said
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  you went to the University of Utah? Mm -hmm.
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  What did you study? Economics. Economics. Okay.
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  Let's go. What year did you graduate? I don't
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  know that end of this. I don't remember. So I
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  graduated in 99 from high school. So five years
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  later. Okay. Yeah. So 2004. Yeah. Okay. So I
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  went to University of Utah as well. I was a finance
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  major. Okay. I did take some economics classes,
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  though, and they were fabulous. But I started
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  in 2000, but then went on a two -year mission,
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  and so I didn't finish up until 2006. So I finished
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  up a couple years after you did. So we were there
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  at the same time. We did fly a crossover there.
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  We might have had a class together. It is possible.
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  It certainly is possible. I seriously considered
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  doing. economics because the classes, I think
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  the professor I had was just so good. I was like,
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  man, maybe I really like this stuff. But I knew
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  I was going to go to law school. I was like,
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  well, the finance is a pretty easy path. And
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  I took some real estate classes as part of the
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  finance degree too. And I was like, ah, it seems
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  pretty easy. I'll just do that before law school.
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  And so I kind of ran that direction, which worked
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  out fine. So you finish up your undergrad. Yeah.
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  And then immediately into financial planning?
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  Yeah. My, yep. I was, I worked, there was a Morgan
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  Stanley, a Discover card shift when I was in
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  college. It was a four hour, four days a week
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  shift. It was perfect. So I started, that was
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  the first time in business that I was, the light
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  went off and was like, hmm. That was the first
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  time I started asking my dad questions, too,
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  because my dad was the financial planner. I had
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  no idea before that what he did. And that was
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  what started to spark like, Dad, what do you
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  do? So it kind of explained it. And so I worked
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  at Morgan Stanley through college. When I graduated,
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  I interned here and there with him. And then
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  when I graduated, I started working with his
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  firm. Amazing. So if you were to. Put to words
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  what it is that you love about financial planning.
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  Why you still continue to do it through your
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  career. What would that be? What's your why for
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  doing financial planning? Well, number one, I
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  love Tetris. I love numbers. I love putting things
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  where they go. So I loved that growing up. And
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  that's financial planning. There's a method to
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  it. There's strategy. But it's figuring out what
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  pieces go where for a family. So I love that
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  component. I love math. I love numbers. I love
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  that two plus two always equals four. It gives
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  me the happiest, warm, fuzzy feeling. I love
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  it. And that's financial planning. When I can
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  figure it out and make sense to me and hopefully
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  make sense to a family and my clients, that's
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  why. I love it. I love being that person that
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  they come to for questions and help them through
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  challenges and all the new things, having babies,
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  going to school, retirement. All that stuff is
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  so rewarding. And then a few years ago, I found
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  divorce. And that's taken on a whole other avenue
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  that's challenging. But also, you know, when
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  you're helping someone go through such a hard
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  time. across the bridge to where it's transitional
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  into a whole new life, it's pretty rewarding.
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  For sure. Yeah. So on that topic, you know that
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  I'm divorced, right? I got divorced a number
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  of years ago and remarried and got a couple of
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  kids and you're divorced as well, right? So,
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  you know, I think it's an interesting question
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  on this topic before we dive into the major components
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  of this topic, of the acronym for TALK. When
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  it comes to communication, what role did that
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  play in your divorce? Either communication or
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  the deterioration of the communication? Or did
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  it? Was that not really a thing for you guys?
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  I mean, I don't recall having struggles communicating
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  in my marriage. We were pretty good communicating.
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  I mean, of course you fight, you know, and you've
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  got to figure out how to have conflict resolution.
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  No, I think we did it pretty well. How about
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  you? Yeah, I mean, communication deteriorated
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  over time where, you know, we weren't fully communicating
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  to each other. We didn't fight a lot, but we
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  weren't in an effective communication relationship
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  to really like get to the deeper levels of communication.
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  Yeah. To get aligned, to stay aligned, to make
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  sure we were tracking in the right direction.
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  to make sure that we could resolve things that
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  came up. And so the communication became very
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  ineffective over time. I mean, if somebody's
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  surface level is looking at it, probably like,
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  oh, you guys communicate just fine. And it wasn't.
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  It wasn't at all. And that's something that I
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  see a lot in divorce, which is I think many times
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  communication breaking down is one of the things
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  that really leads to a lot of other problems.
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  When communication breaks down, then people start
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  looking for the validation somewhere else. When
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  communication breaks down, then suddenly they
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  stop sharing with each other about finances.
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  And now finances becomes a big problem and they
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  won't talk about it. Or communication breaks
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  down, so then they don't like being with the
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  in -laws, right, or whatever. And so they don't
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  talk about it or they have ineffective communication
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  when it comes to those things. And so a lot of
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  times I see it circling back to, man, there was
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  red flags. That if they could have resolved it
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  earlier on with the communication component,
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  it might have avoided a lot of the other things
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  that came later on and kind of trace it back
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  to that communication. It's an art. It is. I
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  mean, the art of communication for sure. And
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  the better you are at all aspects of life improve.
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  Yeah. Do you feel like you and your ex are pretty
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  good communicators when it comes to co -parenting?
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  Yeah. That's huge. What role has that played
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  in? making it easier for your son. Yeah. I mean,
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  oh, it's huge. I mean, I know some people can't
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  even have their parents in the same room. They
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  struggle with going to, you know, soccer games
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  or we don't have any of that. So it's nice. There's
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  no anxiety there. Hopefully, hopefully he feels
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  that way, but yeah. And, and yeah, that. ability
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  to co -parent effectively when it comes to those
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  things has such a positive impact on the children.
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  Yeah. Plus, kids are smart, right? So they go
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  to dad's house, they get away with something,
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  go to mom's house, get away with something. No,
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  we're talking about it. We're going to know.
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  And it's hard because even when a couple is living
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  together, kids play against each other. Like
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  100 % they do, right? Oh, yeah, for sure. I can
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  only imagine that Ariel, if her mom had been
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  around, she probably would have been playing
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  her mom and her dad against each other a little
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  bit, right? That probably would have been her
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  thing. She definitely didn't have effective communication
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  with King Triton, right? No. The communication
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  there right at the gate was like struggle bus,
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  right? She knew what dad expected. He had very
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  high expectations. He wasn't willing to have
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  a conversation, wasn't willing to talk about
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  it. Where she had her head... What he says goes.
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  Yes. Yeah. What 16 -year -old likes that? Yeah,
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  nah, nobody, right? I mean, maybe there are some
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  people pleasers, right? That might not play out
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  well over the long run. I think my 13 -year -old's
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  probably a little bit that way. He's a little
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  bit of a people pleaser. And so he wants to try
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  to do, you know, what I ask or his mom asks or
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  my wife or his stepdad because he's such a people
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  pleaser. But it's something that I've talked
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  with them about like over time, like we can't
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  just be people pleasers all the time because
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  then people take advantage of you and it can
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  have really negative effects in the long run
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  in your career. But for the most part, 16 -year
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  -olds don't want to have ruling with an iron
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  fist from their parents. No, no. Well, at least
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  in my house, they don't. I agree with you with
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  the people pleasing thing, though. I mean, I
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  worry about. I worry about. drugs out there,
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  how everything that just the fentanyl situation
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  that's happening right now and you never know
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  and and getting tricked into something or peer
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  pressure, things like that. So we're always having
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  those conversations of I need to be able to feel
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  confident that when you're in an uncomfortable
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  situation, you know how to get yourself out of
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  it without succumbing to peer pressure. So. Yeah,
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  we do try to have those conversations, too, because
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  it's a scary world out there. Yeah, no doubt
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  about it. You've got to be prepared to stand
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  up for yourself and have that inner confidence
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  to do that. Yeah, for sure. So when it comes
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  to these kind of effective communication tools
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  that we have, we've got kind of one of the topics
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  today, which is Alison Woodbrooks, who is a Harvard
• 14:53
  professor, studied communication for the better
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  part of 20 years, two decades. And it's one of
• 15:00
  the foremost experts in communication. Like she
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  is like expert, right? And wrote a book called
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  Talk. And that was what we're going to a little
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  bit about what we're going to talk about today.
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  So do you want to set the stage for us? Like
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  tell everybody what this acronym TALK stands
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  for. Yeah. So, well, and when I grew up, I want
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  to take her class someday. That sounds like such
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  a fun class. So TALK, it's. The structure starts
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  with T, which is topics. So should we just go
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  into it? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. T is for topics. So
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  she sort of describes that, you know, when you're
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  going on a date for the first time, you usually
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  prepare for, you know, you're doing your outfit
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  or your hair and you're thinking about where
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  you're going to go to dinner. But nobody really
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  thinks about what they're going to talk about.
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  And so just setting the stage in your mind for
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  even 30 seconds about a couple of things you
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  can bring. to that conversation prior to helps
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  the conversation go better. And it reduces anxiety.
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  It makes everybody just a little more relaxed,
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  which helps the date go better, right? So topics,
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  it's preparing and having things in your back
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  pocket that you can discuss. A is the next one.
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  So this is probably the most important part.
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  It's asking questions, asking follow -up questions
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  and being, interested and curious and engaged.
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  And that is just the sparkler of the whole structure.
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  So asking better questions. We have L, which
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  sounds for levity. So, so far we've got topics
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  asking. So far we've got an interrogation, right?
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  Levity is so that we're lighting things up, right?
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  We want to bring warmth. We want to bring humor.
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  Sometimes it's, you know, jabbing at yourself,
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  not being so serious, just bringing a lightness
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  so that you're engaging and making people feel
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  comfortable. And then K is kindness. And, you
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  know, that's that's so. So that you can stay
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  in the conversation. Kindness takes work. It's
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  acknowledging before disagreeing. It's just bringing
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  a level of warmth to the conversation. Is that
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  how you took it? Yes, absolutely. What would
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  you say about kindness? Yeah, I think, well.
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  What I think about kindness, I think, goes well
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  with one of the quotes that I had on that topic.
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  Oh, what I wanted to say, too, is kindness, people
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  will stay in conversations when they feel respected,
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  and that's kind of kindness. So when you're having
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  hard conversations, which we do in work all the
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  time, adding that kindness component allows people
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  the safety to stay in with you. Yeah, for sure.
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  What are your questions? So I was actually not
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  the one I was thinking of. So, well, it is. So
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  Vanessa Van Edwards. I love her. She said, the
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  power of our first impression lies not in what
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  we say, but how we say it. And so I think a lot
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  of this kindness is it's a delivery mechanism.
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  You know, we could have something really great
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  to contribute. But if we say it really harshly.
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  or we say it in a rude way or a condescending
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  way or in a disparaging way it's just not going
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  to be well received and the idea of talk is like
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  how are we going to have good quality conversations
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  how are we going to keep the conversation going
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  and when we can bring that kindness to it when
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  the way we say things does matter it will help
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  to keep it going if we want to keep the conversation
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  going and when we keep the conversation going
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  it makes for better relationships that's kind
• 18:57
  of the idea that's the way i took it right along
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  I love it. Yeah. So Alison Brooks, Alison Brooke
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  Woods, is that it? Wood Brooks. Okay. Yeah, she's
• 19:14
  the words. She's using the verbal communication
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  where Vanessa Van Edwards is using cues and body
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  language and tone. And so I agree with you. She's
• 19:27
  fascinating and everything she's bringing to
• 19:29
  the communication table is, I love it. But yeah,
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  it is how you're delivering it. And if your words
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  and your body language don't match, the person
• 19:38
  you're talking to won't buy it. Yeah. Yeah, that's
• 19:41
  right. And it's important to pay attention to
• 19:44
  both. Yeah. Okay. So let's do a little bit of
• 19:48
  a deeper dive into each one of these. Does that
• 19:50
  work for you? Sure. Okay. So I've got other quotes
• 19:53
  to read. I'm going to get your take on each one
• 19:54
  of these, okay? Okay. So the first one is about
• 19:56
  tea, right? Topics. And it's what Allison said.
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  She said, at every moment of every conversation,
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  everyone involved is making little micro choices
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  that help to steer topics. Every time you speak,
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  you sort of have your hand on the steering wheel
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  of the topical flow. And you're choosing, should
• 20:15
  we stay on this current topic? Should we drift
• 20:18
  gently in another direction? Let me get your
• 20:21
  take on that. Yeah, I mean, I think in any moment
• 20:25
  when you're going back and forth with someone,
• 20:28
  you have an opportunity to dive deeper or jump
• 20:32
  ship to another topic. Sometimes staying on the
• 20:38
  first topic and diving deeper, though, that's
• 20:40
  when you get to the good stuff. And I do think
• 20:43
  she talks about that, you know, asking. staying
• 20:47
  on a topic, asking follow -up questions to sort
• 20:52
  of dive deeper to get a little bit more magic
• 20:56
  out of something before jumping ship onto the
• 20:59
  next thing. Yeah. One of the things I like that
• 21:02
  she says here, a specific word is gently. Should
• 21:05
  we drift gently in another direction? Because
• 21:07
  we've all been in those conversations where you're
• 21:10
  on a particular topic and someone's involved
• 21:12
  in it and suddenly it is a complete 180. And
• 21:16
  they have something entirely different that's
• 21:18
  not connected in any way that's super abrupt
• 21:20
  and they want to talk about it. And that can
• 21:22
  be really off -putting, right? Right. Well, you
• 21:25
  feel like you weren't heard in the first place
• 21:28
  and that what you were saying didn't matter.
• 21:31
  Yeah. That's true, too. And it's so hard when
• 21:36
  we're going back and forth. If I'm thinking while
• 21:40
  you're talking about the next thing that I'm
• 21:42
  going to say. Am I really being present? That's
• 21:48
  always something we're working on. Yeah. And
• 21:50
  the answer is usually no. No. And even if you
• 21:52
  think you are or you're trying to listen, if
• 21:54
  you have that abruptness, you're going to make
• 21:56
  the other person feel like you weren't listening
• 21:58
  at all. And I think that's the way it comes across.
• 22:00
  That's why I like this idea of it being gently.
• 22:02
  Let me ask you another kind of take on this thing
• 22:04
  of topics. She talks about this a little bit
• 22:06
  as well, which is small talk, especially when
• 22:10
  you're meeting somebody for the first time. What's
• 22:13
  your take on small talk? I guess let's just start
• 22:16
  out there. What's your take on small talk? I
• 22:17
  think small talk is you have to have small talk
• 22:21
  in order to get to the deep stuff. You've got
• 22:24
  to start there. So nobody really loves it, I
• 22:27
  don't think. But you have to start there that
• 22:33
  earns the good stuff. Yeah. And one of the points
• 22:38
  that she made in an interview that she did was,
• 22:41
  You have to have it, but people stay on it too
• 22:44
  long. So you got to have some small talk, but
• 22:47
  she suggested like even just like a single question,
• 22:50
  right? Because when people always like complain
• 22:52
  about like, oh, you got to ask about what the
• 22:54
  weather is and oh, I hate this small talk. She's
• 22:56
  like, ask what the weather is and then move to
• 22:58
  the next thing. Just don't stay on the small
• 23:00
  talk, right? Ask about it to kind of break the
• 23:02
  ice and then move. And I think one of the key
• 23:05
  things. that you just have to learn in a conversation
• 23:08
  learn over time is when's the appropriate time
• 23:11
  to make those advances uh topically and then
• 23:14
  getting deeper because you have to you can't
• 23:17
  come up meet somebody for the first time and
• 23:18
  say like what's the purpose of life for you like
• 23:22
  what what what are we talking about yeah who
• 23:25
  are you i have no idea where you're from what
• 23:28
  are you even talking about right you can't get
• 23:29
  there too fast either yeah so small talk like
• 23:33
  small but they're still like There's in -between
• 23:36
  topical conversations you've got to, like, go
• 23:38
  down the pathway of before you can get to a lot
• 23:41
  deeper conversation. So true. And I don't hate
• 23:46
  small talk, to be honest. And maybe it's because
• 23:49
  I just know that it's an avenue to get somewhere
• 23:51
  else. Yeah. I know. I've been trying to make
• 23:56
  it a little more interesting. There you go. What
• 23:59
  have you done? Well, I'm working. I'm working
• 24:02
  on it. I'm a constant learner. Okay. So like
• 24:04
  everybody says, it's so natural to just say,
• 24:07
  how's it going? Or how's your day? Or, you know,
• 24:12
  the weather or something. So trying to change
• 24:15
  up those words so that the answer isn't the mundane
• 24:19
  answer we've all been doing. It's just ingrained.
• 24:22
  It's a habit. We all do it. All of us. We have
• 24:26
  to break it. And by doing it, just... Just trying
• 24:29
  to be a little different. So, you know, what's
• 24:32
  exciting about your week? What's a goal you're
• 24:34
  working on this week? You know, just little different
• 24:39
  questions. It's still small talk. It's still
• 24:41
  not offensive. I'm not interrogating you. I'm
• 24:43
  still asking the same question without it being
• 24:45
  the same words. Yeah. I had somebody ask me a
• 24:49
  question very early on in a conversation I was
• 24:52
  having with them that I really loved. And they
• 24:55
  asked, like, what's the most exciting thing you're
• 24:56
  working on right now? Yeah, see? And I was like,
• 24:59
  okay, all right. Well, yeah, here's some exciting
• 25:02
  things. Yeah, like, let's go. And it didn't take
• 25:06
  hardly any small talk before that question. I
• 25:08
  was willing to answer because of the way that
• 25:10
  it was phrased. And it was interesting, right?
• 25:12
  Like, it's a positive way. It's an upbeat thing
• 25:15
  because like, hey, what's exciting that you're
• 25:17
  working on? So it's also taking this positive
• 25:18
  spin, which was really good. I was like, man,
• 25:21
  I need to steal that. I need to borrow that question.
• 25:22
  Yeah. It was a good one. Vanessa Van Edwards
• 25:25
  is actually really good at trying to change this
• 25:30
  narrative with some of these small talk pieces.
• 25:35
  And what wisdom does she have for us? Just things
• 25:40
  like that. Asking things in a different way.
• 25:43
  Or don't say when someone asks you, how are you?
• 25:47
  You'll say, fine, busy. How many times have we
• 25:50
  all said that? Say something real. Say something
• 25:53
  like, you know, 9 out of 10 or something different.
• 25:57
  Yeah, like stuff like that. 9 out of 10. Yeah.
• 25:59
  Right? Because like, oh, okay. Because then it's
• 26:01
  almost, it brings in one of the other ones, which
• 26:03
  it's a little bit of levity too. Yeah, levity.
• 26:05
  You're like, well, analytically, I am a 9 out
• 26:08
  of 10 and let me tell you why. No, no. It's like,
• 26:10
  oh, 9 out of 10. Right? Yeah. It's kind of like
• 26:11
  fun and laughing. Or she'll say, better on the
• 26:16
  inside than the outside. Or, you know, if she's.
• 26:19
  you know, not done up or something. It's just
• 26:22
  making fun, making light of herself, not taking
• 26:25
  herself too seriously. But those things are cute.
• 26:27
  They're nuanced. They're different. And I think
• 26:31
  people like it. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Because,
• 26:35
  you know, when we're bringing the first question,
• 26:37
  right, we can ask a different question other
• 26:39
  than the simple, like, how's the weather? How
• 26:40
  are you? But we know we're going to get that
• 26:42
  if somebody else is leading the conversation.
• 26:44
  And so if we do, yeah, being prepared with some,
• 26:47
  you know, some levity there, some nine out of
• 26:49
  tens or better on the inside than the outside.
• 26:51
  Yeah. That's kind of a fun one. Yeah, they're
• 26:53
  cute. Yeah. Okay. So here's another quote for
• 26:57
  you. Well, two. Okay. First off, there's a Little
• 27:00
  Mermaid quote on topic, on the topic of topic,
• 27:03
  I guess, as the case is here. She says, if only
• 27:09
  I could make him understand, speaking of her
• 27:12
  father. I just don't see things the way he does.
• 27:14
  I just don't see how a world that makes such
• 27:16
  wonderful things could be bad. And so what is
• 27:22
  she experiencing here when it comes to communication
• 27:26
  or the lack thereof, both from topics and then
• 27:30
  leading into the next one, which is asking questions?
• 27:42
  I'm trying to think of how it topics. She's she's
• 27:46
  so curious and she just wants to be free to experience
• 27:50
  the world through her lens. And her dad is terrified
• 27:56
  for her. Right. So. I don't know about topics.
• 28:03
  Asking for sure. He needs to ask her some questions.
• 28:07
  He needs to connect with her in a way that's
• 28:11
  not my way or the highway, you know, do it or
• 28:16
  else. Yeah. And by asking questions to open up
• 28:22
  that dialogue so that she feels like it's a safe
• 28:25
  place to communicate, I think would. be helpful
• 28:28
  for sure and because this is a parent -child
• 28:31
  relationship more of the uh onerous falls on
• 28:34
  on dad for sure if this wasn't if this was more
• 28:37
  of a two adults um having a conversation or having
• 28:40
  this situation happen to me it's a little bit
• 28:42
  of if if ariel is thinking about these things
• 28:47
  like oh i don't understand this i don't understand
• 28:50
  why he feels this way i don't understand how
• 28:52
  he doesn't see these things okay I can go into
• 28:55
  a conversation with him thinking about those
• 28:56
  topics in advance. Okay, I need to understand
• 28:58
  how he feels this way. And then I also need to
• 29:01
  be able to express how I feel about these topics.
• 29:04
  And so going in prepared with topics can help
• 29:07
  lead that conversation in the right direction.
• 29:09
  And then it leads naturally into that asking
• 29:11
  questions. Certainly, her dad would need to ask
• 29:14
  questions, but she can as well, right? She could
• 29:17
  help. to steer in that direction if she was truly
• 29:20
  curious to to get those answers from him like
• 29:23
  understand why he's so afraid of the surface
• 29:26
  why he's so afraid of humans i don't think at
• 29:29
  this point she really understands or has any
• 29:31
  idea why he would be obviously he's carrying
• 29:33
  something right he's carrying something as to
• 29:36
  why yeah why humans are dangerous there's something
• 29:38
  there for him as to why they are and she could
• 29:42
  try to understand it better by going and prepare
• 29:45
  with topics asking really good questions in that
• 29:47
  conversation right um here's another quote this
• 29:50
  is from renee brown she says i define connection
• 29:53
  as the energy that exists between people when
• 29:57
  they feel seen heard and valued when they can
• 30:00
  give and receive without judgment and when they
• 30:02
  derive sustenance and strength from the relationship
• 30:06
  okay so To me, I mean, this isn't necessarily
• 30:12
  tied to topics, but what does that mean for you
• 30:14
  as far as this topic goes of communication? When
• 30:18
  we're saying and acknowledging like connection
• 30:21
  is so important, right? We have got to have connection
• 30:24
  with other people. It's just like part of who
• 30:26
  we are. I think we're humans. That's what we're
• 30:29
  here for is to make connections with others.
• 30:33
  Yeah. And when we have effective. conversations
• 30:37
  when we can effectively communicate that it it
• 30:40
  creates this right she's saying it exists between
• 30:43
  people when they feel seen heard and valued and
• 30:46
  so i think this framework what it really can
• 30:49
  do is help us to help other people feel that
• 30:52
  way that conversation with us Agreed. I think
• 30:55
  people, when you're having a conversation, they're
• 30:59
  not always going to remember the words that we're
• 31:01
  using, but they will remember how they felt.
• 31:03
  That's what we're leaving with them. Yeah. So
• 31:08
  I agree. And I think it leads perfectly into
• 31:10
  the asking questions, right? And when it comes
• 31:13
  to asking questions, what does it mean to you
• 31:15
  to like ask better questions? Because we can
• 31:17
  ask a variety of questions. It doesn't mean they're
• 31:19
  like good questions. I think you just start and
• 31:25
  then you follow up and then you keep going. And
• 31:28
  if you're going into it genuinely curious and
• 31:33
  wanting to know, that's when the magic happens.
• 31:37
  How do you do that when you're not necessarily
• 31:39
  genuinely curious? Well, you have to be. You
• 31:43
  have to. Or don't do it. I mean, you have to
• 31:45
  be authentic. You gotta dig deep. Yeah. I mean,
• 31:48
  it has to come from a place of authenticity.
• 31:50
  Otherwise, yes, you are going to look like a
• 31:53
  fraud. Yeah. Yeah. But don't you think as humans,
• 31:56
  all of us have a curiosity component? Yes. And
• 32:00
  if we felt comfortable enough to slow down and
• 32:02
  really follow up with questions, we would, I
• 32:05
  think. Yeah. And I think this is part goes back
• 32:09
  to the preparation going into it. If we know
• 32:12
  that like, okay, I'm interested in. understanding
• 32:17
  better this person's perspective where they're
• 32:19
  coming from now we've reframed it for our brains
• 32:22
  so we go in the conversation and we ask the follow
• 32:25
  -up questions we frame that way i'm going in
• 32:27
  knowing i need to ask more questions because
• 32:29
  okay i actually do want to understand because
• 32:32
  there's this this dichotomy that exists within
• 32:34
  us right we all have like the egocentric part
• 32:38
  of ourselves that just want to talk about ourselves
• 32:41
  and be about ourselves. Self -focus all the time.
• 32:44
  Right? And we have to fight against that a little
• 32:47
  bit to do this effectively. And so the framing
• 32:49
  at the beginning can help us do that more effectively
• 32:51
  when we're entering in so we can be genuine.
• 32:55
  Sometimes it's hard. When you were talking, I
• 32:58
  was just hearing Kristen Wiig and Saturday Night
• 33:01
  Live going, oh, you did that? I did it too. I
• 33:04
  did it first. Oh, you have that? I have one.
• 33:07
  A classic one -upper. Yeah. The sketches she
• 33:10
  did on that were so hilarious. I love her. And
• 33:13
  the thing is, they're extreme examples, but we
• 33:15
  also all know people who love to be the one -upper.
• 33:18
  Sure. No matter what comes up, it's like they've
• 33:21
  got to talk about themselves. And that's where
• 33:24
  I think there's also a pretty bright line, this
• 33:28
  distinction between those asking genuine questions
• 33:31
  because they want to know, they're curious, and
• 33:33
  those that are asking a question just so they
• 33:35
  can bring it back to themselves. That's true.
• 33:38
  Sometimes people ask questions, but it's really
• 33:40
  just so they can talk about what they want to
• 33:41
  talk about. They're steering the conversation.
• 33:44
  And then they can share their story that they're
• 33:46
  really excited to share. Because again, we all
• 33:48
  have a little bit of that like egocentric nature
• 33:50
  to us. And there's a tendency to do that. And
• 33:53
  we've all seen it, right? Somebody asks a question
• 33:56
  because, hey, you know what? Do you like concerts?
• 34:00
  Right? And you're like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This
• 34:02
  concert I just went to. Yeah. They want to tell
• 34:04
  about the concert they went to instead of like,
• 34:06
  oh, you love concerts. Oh, why do you why do
• 34:07
  you love concerts? OK, like have you gone to
• 34:10
  them your whole life? Like, what is that? What
• 34:11
  does that mean? Like, yeah. What kind of concerts
• 34:13
  do you go to? What's your favorite kind of music?
• 34:16
  And so that that idea of steering just to go
• 34:20
  back to yourself or genuinely, sincerely want
• 34:22
  to know what the other person says, I think it's
• 34:24
  a pretty key distinction there when it comes
• 34:27
  to asking questions. OK, so here's here's another
• 34:30
  quote from Allison. She says, you can ask follow
• 34:34
  -up questions, the superhero of questions. You
• 34:37
  can repeat and affirm what you've heard your
• 34:39
  partner say. You can use back -channel utterances
• 34:41
  like, yeah, mm -hmm, and fascinating to cheer
• 34:45
  on your partner as they tell a story. What's
• 34:49
  the importance of that if somebody else is telling
• 34:51
  a story to, like, stay engaged? Well, it tells
• 35:00
  them that you're listening. First of all, I'm
• 35:08
  thinking back to she was just on a podcast with
• 35:10
  Mel Robbins. And they were talking about this.
• 35:12
  And Mel Robbins was giving an example when she
• 35:15
  was communicating with her husband. Her husband
• 35:20
  was telling her something. And she had her back
• 35:24
  turned to him. And he said, are you listening
• 35:26
  to me? repeated back what he had said, but in
• 35:31
  a snarky way, right? And he said, I'm not asking
• 35:34
  if you are listening to me. I'm asking for your
• 35:37
  hearing me. Like, are you here with me talking?
• 35:41
  You know, that was the point is that no, she
• 35:46
  wasn't because her back was turned. He didn't
• 35:47
  feel like she was engaged in the conversation.
• 35:51
  She was showing that she didn't care. So showing
• 35:55
  your partner that you're listening by reaffirming
• 35:59
  what they're saying or, or adding in chiming
• 36:03
  in. I think it just tells your person that you're
• 36:06
  there with them and you care. Yeah. Before we
• 36:11
  jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If
• 36:14
  you're enjoying the journey so far, will you
• 36:17
  like rate and subscribe to our show? It helps
• 36:20
  us reach more people like you. We can design
• 36:23
  and create and build the most wonderful place
• 36:26
  in the world. But it takes people to make the
• 36:29
  dream a reality. Again, it goes back to that
• 36:33
  we all need to feel seen, heard, and valued.
• 36:35
  Yeah, how do you want that other person to feel
• 36:38
  when talking to you? And if we want to feel closer,
• 36:43
  if we want to feel like we've got a good, solid
• 36:45
  relationship, we both have to feel that way.
• 36:47
  And these things are really key to bringing that
• 36:50
  out. My son does that all the time. Uh -huh,
• 36:53
  uh -huh. Right? Yeah, totally. Like you can just
• 36:58
  see the glaze go over. Yeah, sure. I'm one that
• 37:04
  I have a one -track mind. I don't multitask well.
• 37:08
  And so like in Mel Robbins' example, if my back
• 37:11
  was turned and my wife's saying something, oh,
• 37:13
  I'm not hearing anything. Like I always tell
• 37:16
  her like, honey, I apologize. You got to have
• 37:18
  my eye contact. So like let me know that you
• 37:21
  need to like talk and like you got my eye contact
• 37:24
  and I'm listening. Because if I'm not, if I'm
• 37:26
  like kind of watching the TV or doing something
• 37:28
  else, it's like, I got nothing. I got nothing.
• 37:31
  And then she's not going to feel, you know, heard
• 37:33
  or seen, of course, because I'm not hearing her
• 37:34
  or seeing her in those moments. Yeah. I mean,
• 37:37
  I think, yeah, I think that's when the magic
• 37:39
  happens for couples, especially where you can
• 37:42
  really show up for your partner. How does it,
• 37:45
  how does this, how do you see this play out in
• 37:48
  your professional practice? When you're... sitting
• 37:52
  down and visiting with someone who's stressed
• 37:54
  about retirement and are they going to be able
• 37:57
  to get themselves in the place they need to be
• 37:59
  or they're going through a divorce and they're
• 38:02
  stressed about, you know, how this divorce is
• 38:05
  shaking up their financial future. How do you
• 38:07
  see this showing up and what's the importance
• 38:10
  of that for you to be able to be there for your
• 38:12
  clients? Oh, I think acknowledging is step one.
• 38:18
  You know, it's okay that you're feeling this
• 38:20
  way. It makes sense that you're feeling this
• 38:22
  way. And we're going to take the time to walk
• 38:24
  through it. Here's step one, right? You just
• 38:27
  have to meet them where they are. Everybody's
• 38:29
  different. Everybody processes different, especially
• 38:32
  in divorce. Yeah, you just have to acknowledge
• 38:38
  where they are. Tell them it's okay. I got you.
• 38:41
  I'm here. We'll get through it together. You're
• 38:44
  not alone. Yeah. And that makes a huge difference.
• 38:48
  If you ask good follow -up questions, are able
• 38:51
  to really explain the things that are there,
• 38:53
  and they have those reassurances, it makes a
• 38:56
  huge difference. I've found in doing divorces
• 39:00
  that some attorneys just don't ask the questions
• 39:04
  they need to ask. Really? Because the clients,
• 39:06
  especially in initial consultation, the clients
• 39:08
  don't know everything they're supposed to tell
• 39:09
  you. They might want to barf up a lot of information.
• 39:13
  They don't necessarily know the things that are
• 39:15
  like important or, you know, what's pertinent
• 39:19
  to how their case could play out. And so asking
• 39:22
  really great questions and then following up
• 39:24
  with those questions to a client, especially
• 39:26
  when they're new, can help in understanding their
• 39:31
  motivations, their goals, understanding if there
• 39:33
  are certain things in their case that you need
• 39:35
  to be aware of because there are certain problems
• 39:36
  in their case. Yeah. And if you don't ask those
• 39:39
  questions and bother to ask and just assume that,
• 39:42
  you know. Now, suddenly you can't give as good
• 39:44
  a representation because you haven't asked really
• 39:47
  great follow up questions. So I think those are
• 39:50
  totally key. OK, so the answer can be no. But
• 39:56
  in our podcast prep meeting, we talked a little
• 39:58
  bit about maybe doing a role play where you were
• 40:01
  going to like. Show us, model this for us in
• 40:04
  asking questions. Okay. So what's the setting?
• 40:07
  Set the setting for us. Who am I and who are
• 40:11
  you? And you're going to ask me a bunch of questions.
• 40:14
  Well, why don't you be you and I'll be me and
• 40:18
  I'll ask you some questions. You've never met
• 40:20
  me before or know each other. We're just friends.
• 40:24
  Okay. Okay. I'm here for it. I'm ready. Okay.
• 40:27
  Okay. Ryan, what did you have for breakfast today?
• 40:31
  I had a protein shake and a Rockstar, which I
• 40:36
  have most mornings. Wow, Rockstar, really? So,
• 40:40
  okay, what's in your protein shake? It's just
• 40:43
  protein powder and skim milk. That's it? That
• 40:46
  is literally it. What flavor of protein powder?
• 40:48
  Definitely chocolate. Chocolate and skim milk.
• 40:51
  Yes. Is that, to you, your favorite breakfast?
• 40:56
  No, it's just fast and easy. So it's usually
• 40:59
  what I do. I usually have premier protein, but
• 41:02
  today it was the powder. Okay. So when you're
• 41:05
  going to have your favorite breakfast, what does
• 41:07
  that look like? That would be chunky cinnamon
• 41:11
  French toast from Neater's. With the caramel
• 41:14
  syrup and the whipped cream and then strawberries
• 41:18
  on top. Is that something you eat weekly or monthly?
• 41:22
  Special occasions. Special occasions. Because
• 41:25
  you're healthy? Because you're trying to be healthy?
• 41:27
  Yes. And I also have a bit of a gluten intolerance.
• 41:31
  And so I have to like take a gluten pill. And
• 41:33
  I'm not going to feel great afterwards. If I
• 41:35
  take the pill, I'll be okay. But like, I'll make
• 41:38
  the sacrifice every once in a while. Okay. When
• 41:40
  did you find that you had a gluten sensitivity?
• 41:44
  This was, it was about four years ago. Yeah.
• 41:50
  How did you find out? You just got sick or? My
• 41:53
  brother actually started to develop it about
• 41:56
  two years prior. And so I kind of seen him, see
• 41:59
  him kind of go through that process of like,
• 42:01
  it wasn't bad at first. And then he went to just
• 42:02
  wheat bread and wheat type products, whole wheat
• 42:06
  type products. And then he had to completely
• 42:08
  exclude it. So then when I was feeling like consistently
• 42:11
  sick, after I would eat, I started getting an
• 42:15
  idea of like, I wonder, I wonder if that's what
• 42:17
  I have. Like the light bulb went off. Yeah. And
• 42:19
  so then I would take it away and be like, uh,
• 42:21
  that's great. Yeah. You connected that dot. So
• 42:26
  that was amazing because you kept the conversation
• 42:28
  going. And I wasn't I wasn't interrogating. No,
• 42:31
  you were curious. I felt like I could talk. I
• 42:34
  felt like you were very, very much listening
• 42:37
  to the things that I was saying. And that's why
• 42:39
  the conversation kept going, because you continue
• 42:41
  to ask questions that were on topic and taking
• 42:43
  it down the path. And I could have taken it a
• 42:45
  few different ways, too. And so there's just.
• 42:47
  Yeah. It's this fun flow. It is. I like it. that's
• 42:52
  great so that i mean i think that models really
• 42:54
  well like you can still steer it to some degree
• 42:58
  like where the conversation's going uh because
• 43:01
  you could have yeah when we're talking about
• 43:03
  food you could have taken it somewhere else with
• 43:04
  food we could have talked about more about the
• 43:07
  special occasions that i eat those but you took
• 43:09
  it down like oh why every once in a while which
• 43:11
  was really interesting and you got curious as
• 43:13
  to why i wouldn't have it that often was it health
• 43:15
  or was it something else yeah so it's really
• 43:17
  good and i And you shared the gluten. Yeah. I
• 43:21
  mean, it's a little deeper. Yeah. We got a little
• 43:24
  deeper. It was a little deeper. See that? I didn't
• 43:26
  realize that. It was. Small talk to deep talk.
• 43:29
  It is. See, that was modeled very well. I like
• 43:31
  it. I like it. I mean, I learned that from Allison
• 43:34
  in her book because she does it in her class.
• 43:38
  She talks about it. That's called. Endless follow
• 43:41
  -up questions or something like that where they
• 43:43
  practice it in their class. Just keep going.
• 43:46
  Keep going. It's endless. You can keep going
• 43:50
  with it. Yeah. I mean, it works really great.
• 43:52
  And I could have been like, I like protein powder.
• 43:54
  And that would have ended that pretty quick,
• 43:56
  right? Boring. Boring. Yeah, no one wants that,
• 43:59
  right? Oh, come on. Let's get to the good stuff.
• 44:02
  Let's get to the good stuff. Let's go where it
• 44:04
  needs to go. I love it. Okay, so. I forgot we
• 44:06
  talked about that. Here's another quote. I'll
• 44:10
  get your take on. This is from Tony Robbins.
• 44:12
  Quality questions create a quality life. Successful
• 44:16
  people ask better questions and as a result,
• 44:19
  they get better answers. How have you seen that
• 44:23
  play out in your life? I mean, I agree. I think
• 44:26
  questions create connection. We just established
• 44:30
  that. And so in my business or even in life.
• 44:35
  The better questions I can ask my son, my partner,
• 44:39
  my clients, the better answers I get and the
• 44:43
  more I can connect with them. She talks about
• 44:48
  this a little bit with your kids. Like my son
• 44:52
  plays basketball and he's going to practice all
• 44:55
  the time. And as he's running out the door, you
• 44:57
  know, I can be like, did you remember your basketball
• 45:01
  and your snacks and your water? And, you know,
• 45:03
  you're barking at them, right? Or you can stop
• 45:06
  for a second and say, you know, what do you need?
• 45:09
  Can I help you with something? What's going well?
• 45:11
  You know, things like that. Asking better questions
• 45:14
  leads to a better relationship, leads to a better
• 45:16
  connection. I think you mentioned earlier on
• 45:20
  something that resonated with me, which is that
• 45:22
  sometimes with your kids, there's like, uh -huh,
• 45:25
  yeah, uh -huh, no. Where it's just these very
• 45:28
  short answers, right? So you're asking questions
• 45:30
  and you're getting just like not a lot back.
• 45:34
  break through that with your son when you're
• 45:38
  kind of getting these like short answers, not
• 45:41
  engaging, like how do you break through? A humor.
• 45:44
  I mean, we call it, we call it, we label it.
• 45:47
  Like I can see that we've hit a point where you're
• 45:52
  just, you're playing me, right? So we just, I
• 45:56
  call him on it and we laugh about it. And then
• 45:58
  we start over with asking questions. Like, tell
• 46:00
  me more about what's going on. How can I help
• 46:03
  you? Good. I like that. It goes in the next one,
• 46:07
  bringing levity. Yeah. You can bring a little
• 46:09
  bit of levity. It does make a difference. Whereas,
• 46:12
  you know, if a child's not giving any answers
• 46:15
  and then they get scolded for it, you know, oh,
• 46:18
  you're only giving me one word answer. It's like,
• 46:20
  oh, it's disrespectful. It's not going to likely
• 46:23
  get as far or as well or as effectively build
• 46:26
  a relationship. Whereas if you can bring a little
• 46:28
  levity, name it, call it, poke fun at it. I can
• 46:31
  see how that would be really effective. Yeah.
• 46:33
  I'm lucky too because a little smirk goes a long
• 46:37
  way with him. So he'll just laugh. We'll just
• 46:40
  laugh and you start over. You reload. You reload.
• 46:43
  Do you name it that too? Like, okay, let's just
• 46:46
  reload. Let's reload. This is not working. I
• 46:49
  need a little more from you, buddy. Yeah. Oh,
• 46:52
  yeah. Let's try that. Just label it and then
• 46:55
  move on. Yeah, way too often. Especially if I'm
• 46:58
  picking my boys up after school. And they're
• 47:01
  in the car. And I start, like, you know, want
• 47:03
  to kind of find out about their day, how things
• 47:04
  went. You start with a little small talk with
• 47:06
  them, right? Like, oh, how was school today?
• 47:08
  Right? Small talk. And then, yeah, so many times
• 47:11
  it's just like nothing. I'm getting absolutely
• 47:13
  nothing. Change your questions. Change the questions.
• 47:16
  What's your favorite part about English today?
• 47:19
  What's exciting going on in band now? I do like
• 47:24
  a question my wife often asks the kids, which
• 47:28
  is, What's the best part of your day? That's
• 47:31
  a good one. And usually they'll give something.
• 47:33
  Now, sometimes they won't because kids are kids
• 47:35
  and sometimes they're just going to do their
• 47:36
  thing. But many times it's like, oh, okay, what
• 47:38
  was the best part? Like, what's this positive
• 47:40
  thing? Recess. Yeah, yeah, recess. Gym. Totally.
• 47:42
  That's what it would have been for me. Rarely
• 47:44
  is for my daughters. It's always usually something
• 47:46
  else. It's not usually recess, which is interesting.
• 47:48
  That is interesting. But as a boy, oh, yeah,
• 47:51
  it was always going to be recess. Yeah, Knox's
• 47:53
  answer was always recess. Yeah. Friends. Friends.
• 47:57
  Yeah. Food. Food. We do get that one. We do get
• 48:00
  that one a lot. Especially from our kindergartner.
• 48:03
  Because what the food menu was at school, like,
• 48:06
  is a big deal for her. So if it was something
• 48:08
  good, she is very excited to tell you how good
• 48:10
  it was. Which is really cute. That is so cute.
• 48:13
  Yeah. And kindergarten is such a fun age where
• 48:17
  they are so curious and excited about everything.
• 48:20
  Yeah. They're lucky. I think, too, with kids,
• 48:22
  you know. it sometimes is a little bit hard to
• 48:26
  be genuinely curious when they're telling you
• 48:29
  about just on end about ridiculous things that
• 48:33
  happened to them that day that are to them mean
• 48:36
  the world and are like the most insignificant
• 48:38
  things but like when i've been able to reframe
• 48:41
  and say like this is actually really important
• 48:43
  to to them then i actually can have more of that
• 48:47
  genuine curiosity whereas i was like oh my goodness
• 48:50
  this is so lame what are they continuing to tell
• 48:52
  me about this for Then my questions are terrible
• 48:55
  and I don't create the connection. Right. So
• 48:57
  we all have that reset we have to have at times.
• 48:59
  Right. Yeah. And again, kindness allows you to
• 49:04
  stay in these hard conversations. If you feel
• 49:07
  respected and safe, you'll stay in. But if you
• 49:09
  don't, you'll check out. And that's definitely
• 49:12
  what we saw from Ariel and King Triton. Right.
• 49:17
  That their conversations were not at a place
• 49:20
  where either one of them. Was heard or seen.
• 49:24
  Right. Well, they hit a wall. Right. And so then
• 49:26
  she rebels and she goes off and to an extreme.
• 49:29
  Yeah. And then goes to Ursula. Ooh, our villain.
• 49:33
  Our villain. She's a great villain too, by the
• 49:35
  way. Oh, master manipulator. Totally. Talk about,
• 49:39
  yeah, using communication to her agenda. Yeah.
• 49:46
  Uh -huh. Yeah, she's— Avoiding fine print. Yeah,
• 49:50
  very manipulative. Yeah, and just all for selfish
• 49:53
  purposes. Yeah, for sure. Because part of me,
• 49:57
  when I hear it, I'm like, okay, she's having
• 49:58
  him sign a contract, and she's holding him to
• 50:00
  this contract. So part of me is like, from the
• 50:02
  legal perspective, like— This is a contract law.
• 50:04
  She agreed to it. I mean, it's a minor, so she
• 50:06
  couldn't technically agree, right? That's the
• 50:07
  technicality there. But let's assume she wasn't
• 50:10
  a minor. Like, yeah, it's a contract, right?
• 50:11
  Like, hey. You don't want this deal. Don't make
• 50:14
  the deal. It's not a very fair deal. Pretty stupid.
• 50:17
  But it is interesting that what she has taken
• 50:21
  away is her voice. It's also interesting. It
• 50:25
  is interesting. And yet this has to then, I guess,
• 50:28
  as Ursula says, right, like there's always body
• 50:31
  language, which I think is obviously an extreme
• 50:34
  example. But I think it highlights what you mentioned
• 50:37
  earlier, which is body language actually is really
• 50:39
  important. Yeah, and think about it when, okay,
• 50:43
  so Ariel uses body language. She can't talk anymore,
• 50:50
  and she's seeing this world for the first time.
• 50:53
  It's all new. She's got wide eyes. She's happy.
• 50:57
  She's excited. She's feeling all the things.
• 51:00
  She's so inviting. And then when Ursula comes
• 51:04
  back into the human form, And it's her body language
• 51:09
  is just yikes, right? Like you feel it so quickly.
• 51:14
  And I think that's what Vanessa Van Edwards talks
• 51:17
  about all the time, that you can make a first
• 51:19
  impression before any words are spoken. And your
• 51:23
  mind is made up whether or not you can trust
• 51:26
  that person from body language cues alone, how
• 51:31
  you're coming, how you're showing up to the world.
• 51:33
  Is it warm? Is it confident? Is it trustworthy?
• 51:37
  Because the other person is trying to decide
• 51:39
  that. Yeah. Yeah. Before any words are spoken.
• 51:42
  Yeah. We're all judging each other all the time.
• 51:46
  Mm -hmm. For good or for bad, we're all doing
• 51:48
  it. Yeah. And body language is first and more
• 51:51
  important. Yeah. And it will supersede the words.
• 51:54
  Sure. So. Again, for good or for bad. Mm -hmm.
• 51:57
  Yeah. Okay. So the next letter is L, which we've
• 52:02
  touched on, obviously. Mm -hmm. Here's the quote
• 52:05
  on this one from Allison. Levity is not trying
• 52:08
  to turn anyone into a comedian or a clown, which
• 52:12
  I love that she said that because, like, I'm
• 52:13
  not a comedian. I guess, like, sometimes it wouldn't
• 52:16
  mind being a clown. But it's literally trying
• 52:19
  to find these opportunities, these fleeting moments
• 52:21
  that can add some sparkle and fizz to our conversations
• 52:24
  so we don't get bored. Yeah. It's the antidote
• 52:29
  to boredom. Yeah. Absolutely. Sparkle and fizz.
• 52:34
  I mean, sign me up, right? To me, that's exactly
• 52:37
  what you bring into conversations with your son
• 52:39
  when you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not
• 52:41
  working. Let's do this again. You're bringing
• 52:43
  that levity. And you don't have to be a comedian,
• 52:46
  right? It's okay if we're not all Steve Carell
• 52:50
  or Nate Bargatze. I'm not quick on my feet like
• 52:52
  that. I'm not going to have these hilarious jokes.
• 52:55
  That's just not me. My brother -in -law, that
• 52:58
  dude is hilarious. I guess no matter what the
• 53:00
  situation, he's always going to have this quick
• 53:02
  -witted thing to say. He just cracks us all up.
• 53:05
  What a gift. That's not me. Like, it's just not.
• 53:08
  But with small little things, you can bring that
• 53:11
  sparkle and fizz. You can bring that levity that
• 53:13
  just can make it a little bit more interesting,
• 53:15
  a little bit more fun. And my suggestion to people
• 53:19
  would be, if you're not the comedian, which I'm
• 53:21
  not, have some phrases. Like, we've already talked
• 53:23
  about some. Just have some of those things on
• 53:25
  hand. Just bust them out. Yeah. I may have told
• 53:28
  you this in our pre -meeting, but I met this
• 53:31
  principal at a school. And he's on a board of
• 53:36
  directors with me. And the other day when I went
• 53:40
  up to say hi to him at this race that we were
• 53:42
  at, I asked him how he was doing, right? Hey,
• 53:45
  how are you, man? He was like, best day of my
• 53:47
  life. Yeah. And I was like, whoa. Tell me more.
• 53:51
  All right. I'm live in. Let's go. He's like,
• 53:54
  that's what I always tell my kids. He's like,
• 53:55
  when my kids get at school, because he's a principal,
• 53:58
  and they come up and talk to me and they ask
• 53:59
  how I am. That's what I always say, best day
• 54:00
  of my life. Because it's something that's different.
• 54:02
  And it's fun. He's got a big smile on his face.
• 54:04
  I'm like, that's just it. You don't have to be
• 54:06
  a comedian, right? You just like have something
• 54:08
  like that. You just bring a little bit more like
• 54:10
  oomph to, a little bit more sparkle to. Absolutely.
• 54:13
  It can make things just a little bit more fun.
• 54:14
  You can smile with your eyes. You can just totally
• 54:18
  show the people that you're there. You're open
• 54:21
  for business. Let's talk about it. I'm here.
• 54:23
  Yeah. And I think the sparkle and fizz, to me
• 54:27
  as well, when I think about it in that way, can
• 54:29
  go a long way. What sometimes are really difficult
• 54:33
  conversations are hard conversations. Because
• 54:35
  you don't want to be necessarily a comedian in
• 54:39
  those moments, right? You don't want to bring
• 54:42
  light -mindedness to a serious topic sometimes,
• 54:46
  right? But there's nothing wrong with bringing
• 54:49
  a little bit of sparkle and fizz to it, right?
• 54:51
  Even if it's serious, it doesn't have to be like
• 54:53
  so somber the whole time. And it's an art because
• 54:58
  you got to be careful. Oh, for sure. You got
• 54:59
  to be careful. I still think, though, that a
• 55:02
  little bit of sparkle and fizz goes a long way
• 55:05
  in those serious conversations. That's my thought.
• 55:08
  What do you think? Yeah, I agree. You have to
• 55:11
  play to your audience, and there's a time and
• 55:13
  a place for things, for sure. It depends. You
• 55:17
  have to feel through it, right? Not everybody's
• 55:20
  going to want to laugh with you when you're going
• 55:25
  through and talking about divorce or death or
• 55:28
  something like that. But asking questions and
• 55:32
  trying to, you know, maybe it's not necessarily
• 55:37
  being funny or bringing humor, but that's where
• 55:40
  you can use other phrases that are maybe, you
• 55:43
  know, more authentic or warm, making light of
• 55:47
  yourself somehow, you know, things like that
• 55:50
  that you can have in your back pocket to make
• 55:54
  the other person hopefully feel safe to communicate.
• 55:59
  Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think it does play
• 56:04
  in really nicely as well to the next one, which
• 56:06
  is K, kindness. Because, you know, you've got
• 56:09
  to find the right moments for the levity, right?
• 56:12
  You've got to be aware of what it is. I mean,
• 56:14
  the kindness, you can always bring the kindness.
• 56:18
  Like serious conversations, fun conversations,
• 56:20
  everything in between, you can always bring a
• 56:23
  degree of kindness, right? Here's what I wrote
• 56:27
  down from Allison on this one. In a way, topics,
• 56:32
  asking, and levity are all working their way
• 56:34
  up to the most important maximum of the talk
• 56:37
  framework, which is kindness. Ultimately, the
• 56:40
  question is in service of what? Are you becoming
• 56:43
  a better conversationalist to pursue your own
• 56:45
  goals and needs? Or are you thinking about other
• 56:48
  people's goals and needs? And give me your take
• 56:53
  on that. Well. It's kind of like the one -upping
• 57:02
  thing we were talking about earlier, right? Are
• 57:03
  you holding space for your person to communicate
• 57:08
  clearly? Are you there to show that it's a safe
• 57:13
  place for that person? Or are you out for your
• 57:15
  own agenda? Is it a platform for you to just
• 57:18
  take over? I think listening is where it is sort
• 57:25
  of. underneath the kindness umbrella too? And
• 57:29
  how are you an active listener? How are you really
• 57:33
  hearing what that person is saying? And are you
• 57:35
  making eye contact? And are you showing the person
• 57:39
  that you're there? And I mean, that's how I would
• 57:43
  take that. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I think
• 57:48
  it goes back to kind of what our motivations
• 57:51
  are, right? Just like you said. And when the
• 57:55
  motivations are in the right place, it's easier
• 57:57
  to then have that kindness come out. Kindness
• 57:59
  is rooted in empathy. And so the lack of empathy
• 58:04
  and just being selfish is going to rob you of
• 58:07
  your ability to be truly kind. I think people
• 58:10
  could mask that by saying nice or flattering
• 58:14
  things, but those are surface level and they're
• 58:17
  not genuine. Yeah, it has to be authentic or
• 58:20
  it's not going to be delivered. Yeah. And my
• 58:25
  wife and I, we have this discussion a lot of
• 58:27
  times because for me as an attorney, words matter,
• 58:30
  but also like the delivery of those words matter.
• 58:33
  If I'm in court, the way I'm delivering it matters.
• 58:35
  If it's gotta be in front of a jury, it matters.
• 58:37
  Even if it's just in front of a judge, it matters.
• 58:40
  So sometimes I annoy her a little bit because
• 58:43
  I like to talk about like the delivery, right?
• 58:45
  Like the delivery matters. It's like, oh, I can't
• 58:47
  always say it the right way. And I'm like, you're
• 58:48
  right. You're right. I got to have some empathy
• 58:50
  for that. Like, I can't always expect to be said
• 58:52
  the right way. I do think, though, that the delivery
• 58:56
  style can make a big difference in my ability
• 58:59
  to receive things, especially when it's like
• 59:01
  feedback or criticism. Or disagreements. Yeah.
• 59:04
  Right. Acknowledging first. And yeah, I agree.
• 59:08
  Which is, I'm so glad you said that because it
• 59:10
  reminded me about one of the things that Allison
• 59:12
  talks a lot about in a lot of our materials.
• 59:15
  And it's the acknowledgement or validation of
• 59:17
  the other person first, which is like the whole
• 59:20
  crux of our podcast, yes and. Because that's
• 59:25
  the idea, which is the yes and is a tool or a
• 59:30
  mechanism to validate somebody else's perspective
• 59:34
  to them and build on it so that we don't tear
• 59:39
  it down and we don't immediately just disagree.
• 59:43
  They're just saying that you can disagree without
• 59:46
  being disagreeable. And I love that because I
• 59:50
  do think it's important, like, the way that we're
• 59:53
  going to disagree with somebody matters. Because,
• 59:56
  again, it comes back to, like, what is it we're
• 59:57
  bringing to the table? How can we have a healthy
• 1:00:00
  discussion that's still rooted in kindness and
• 1:00:03
  empathy? And yes and goes a long way into doing
• 1:00:06
  that. Yes being the acknowledgement and building
• 1:00:10
  on it instead of a yes but. Yes, but being the
• 1:00:14
  but sweep where we sweep away what was said before,
• 1:00:16
  we really invalidated even though we said yes.
• 1:00:18
  The yes and is something I think a lot of people
• 1:00:21
  could incorporate better. It would be a tool
• 1:00:23
  to continue conversations. Yeah. Such a powerful
• 1:00:28
  thing to practice. Yeah. Okay. So what, when
• 1:00:35
  you're going into a hard conversation with a
• 1:00:38
  client, a significant other, kid. What what mantras
• 1:00:43
  or things do you tell yourself going into it
• 1:00:47
  right before you do it to kind of prep yourself
• 1:00:48
  for that conversation? Just trying to be as curious
• 1:00:54
  as possible. Help me understand. Ask better questions.
• 1:00:59
  You know, tell me more about why we're here.
• 1:01:03
  How did we get here? How can I help? That's more
• 1:01:07
  my son for sure. With clients, understanding
• 1:01:13
  or acknowledging the way that they're feeling,
• 1:01:15
  it makes sense that you feel this way. How can
• 1:01:18
  I support you? Where do we go from here? So a
• 1:01:22
  lot of questions, a lot of just reassuring them
• 1:01:28
  that I hear them where they are. I hear the emotions.
• 1:01:32
  I understand where you are. How can we move forward?
• 1:01:36
  Yeah. What do you need from me? How can I help?
• 1:01:39
  You know, sometimes that's just the easiest question
• 1:01:41
  to ask. What do you need from me? Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  It can be really effective because then they
• 1:01:48
  know you care. Yeah. And I don't have a ton of
• 1:01:52
  conflict resolution with my clients. Maybe something
• 1:01:55
  they're going through if they're going through
• 1:01:57
  a divorce, right? And so we can talk through
• 1:01:59
  it, but it's not, you know, there's not a ton
• 1:02:03
  of conflict there. Yeah, I mean, and then just
• 1:02:10
  helping them understand, like, they don't always
• 1:02:11
  have to engage in conflict, too. Sometimes you
• 1:02:15
  can just step away or just say, noted. Okay,
• 1:02:22
  I hear you. I understand. That's an interesting
• 1:02:25
  perspective. And walk away. Yeah, because there's
• 1:02:28
  some times where that relationship, for whatever
• 1:02:30
  reason, is not going to get built. And so you
• 1:02:33
  don't continue down that pathway because it's
• 1:02:35
  something where you've got to sometimes have
• 1:02:37
  a healthy boundary and be like, okay, got it.
• 1:02:40
  I'm going to end the conversation. Yeah. For
• 1:02:42
  sure. Okay. So I'm going to take us to a quick,
• 1:02:46
  a couple of quick fun segments. Okay. You ready
• 1:02:48
  for these? Sure. First one's this or that. This
• 1:02:50
  or that. Okay. Okay. So this or that is you just
• 1:02:53
  tell me which one you think. Okay. Okay. Even,
• 1:02:55
  even if I think it's wrong, it's totally fine.
• 1:02:57
  Okay. I'll tell you if I think it is. I'm just
• 1:03:00
  kidding. Okay. Ariel's secret treasure grotto
• 1:03:04
  or Eric's castle? Ariel's secrets for sure. Okay.
• 1:03:12
  You like her little thing that she's got where
• 1:03:15
  she's collected all the human items. Who doesn't
• 1:03:16
  want like a secret hut of treasures? It is pretty
• 1:03:19
  cool. It is pretty cool. Okay. Scuttle or Sebastian?
• 1:03:25
  Scuttle. No, Sebastian. Sebastian. Sebastian?
• 1:03:30
  Yeah. It's their best friend and there's warmth
• 1:03:33
  and it's like a dog, you know, having that connection
• 1:03:38
  for sure. I love Sebastian. I love Under the
• 1:03:40
  Sea. So for me, it's Sebastian because of Under
• 1:03:43
  the Sea. But Scuttle is a funny character. Oh,
• 1:03:46
  no, I'm thinking of Sebastian. Are you thinking
• 1:03:48
  of Flounder? I was thinking of Flounder when
• 1:03:50
  I said that. So I thought Flounder. Okay, no,
• 1:03:52
  Sebastian. Sebastian. Sebastian. And he is the
• 1:03:56
  empathy character of that movie, I think. There
• 1:04:00
  is no movie without Sebastian. Yeah. So, yes,
• 1:04:02
  you're right. Okay. Long walk in the park or
• 1:04:07
  being in a coffee shop with background noise?
• 1:04:12
  Ooh, that's hard. Both. I probably go to the
• 1:04:16
  coffee shop more, but I love walking. Long walks.
• 1:04:21
  Love it. I got to make you choose. I know. That's
• 1:04:25
  the this or that. The long walk. Okay. I'm a
• 1:04:27
  hiker. I'm a hiker for sure. I like to get lost
• 1:04:31
  in the woods. Phone call or face -to -face? Face
• 1:04:36
  -to -face. Oh, yeah. I don't love talking on
• 1:04:39
  the phone, like at all. I know. It seems to be
• 1:04:42
  going away with the times, right? You're either
• 1:04:45
  texting, which is terrible because phone calls
• 1:04:49
  allow you to hear the tone of voice. It does.
• 1:04:52
  So it helps more with connection. But yeah, people
• 1:04:54
  want to text or they... In person, for sure.
• 1:04:57
  I have been turned on to the idea of voice memos
• 1:05:00
  in recent weeks. Or even Marco Polos. Because
• 1:05:04
  then you get a little more context from the person.
• 1:05:06
  But then they can listen and watch at their convenience.
• 1:05:09
  Yeah. So if they're not available for a phone
• 1:05:10
  call. And I can see value in that. Yeah. Because
• 1:05:12
  then you can see the body language or hear the,
• 1:05:14
  you know, tone, reflection in their voice a little
• 1:05:17
  bit better. Okay. Ask the first question or give
• 1:05:22
  the first compliment. I ask a lot of questions.
• 1:05:27
  So you're going to go with ask the first question.
• 1:05:29
  Okay. Yeah. I like it. I like it. Dinner party
• 1:05:35
  or late night one -on -one conversation? Ooh,
• 1:05:40
  dinner party. Yeah, same. I'm a dinner party
• 1:05:43
  guy. Love it. I love me a good party. They're
• 1:05:45
  super fun. Yeah. Okay. Here's a rapid fire, okay?
• 1:05:48
  Okay. It's the first one that comes to your mind.
• 1:05:50
  Okay. Okay. You ready for this? Yeah. Favorite
• 1:05:53
  Disney movie? Little Mermaid. Okay. Perfect.
• 1:05:56
  Favorite Disney song? The Frozen one. Let It
• 1:06:00
  Go. Let It Go. Oh, classic. So good. So good.
• 1:06:05
  Favorite Disney princess? Ariel. Favorite Disney
• 1:06:10
  villain? I'm trying to think of them all. You
• 1:06:23
  got... Ursula, obviously. You got Jafar. You
• 1:06:26
  got Hades. You got Maleficent. You've got Gothel.
• 1:06:33
  You've got... I love Maleficent. Yeah, a lot
• 1:06:37
  of people do. Is that what you're going to go
• 1:06:39
  with? Yeah, I'll go with that. Okay. It's not
• 1:06:42
  a bad pick. It's not a bad pick. And I don't
• 1:06:44
  know if you're a Disneyland or Disney World gal,
• 1:06:47
  but we're going to go with this question anyways.
• 1:06:49
  Favorite Disney ride? So I went to Disneyland
• 1:06:55
  a couple years ago and the Star Wars, everything
• 1:06:58
  Star Wars, that was like our favorite, but I
• 1:07:01
  don't know of any of the Disney rides beyond
• 1:07:04
  that. Yeah, in the Star Wars, you've got Smuggler's
• 1:07:07
  Run, which is like you're in the Millennium Falcon
• 1:07:10
  and you're just kind of sitting there and you're
• 1:07:12
  either the pilot or you're shooting the guns
• 1:07:16
  or you're the engineer in the back, right? There's
• 1:07:18
  those six spots right to each side. Or then the
• 1:07:22
  superior ride, which is now I can't remember
• 1:07:26
  the name of it. Why can I remember the name of
• 1:07:27
  it? I don't know. But then I will say cars. The
• 1:07:33
  cars ride was that was the best roller like roller
• 1:07:38
  coaster experience. But the line was so long
• 1:07:40
  that it was. Oh, it can be. Yeah. You got to
• 1:07:43
  be real careful. You get the lightning lane or
• 1:07:46
  you got to go the single rider. At Cars. Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  Because waiting in the whole regular line for
• 1:07:50
  Cars, that's for the birds. Like it could be
• 1:07:53
  two hours. It was at least that. Yeah. The other
• 1:07:57
  Star Wars ride is Rise of the Resistance, which
• 1:08:00
  is phenomenal. It's like such an amazing. To
• 1:08:04
  me, it's the greatest ride experience ever created.
• 1:08:06
  But it's amazing. Is that when you're in the
• 1:08:09
  car and you're on the thing? Because that was
• 1:08:11
  really cool. Yes. We could have spent the entire
• 1:08:14
  weekend in just the Star Wars place. Yeah, they've
• 1:08:17
  done a great job with Star Wars Land for sure.
• 1:08:20
  So fun. Okay. Favorite book. This is a non -Disney
• 1:08:25
  question. Oh. Favorite book. The Secret Prayer.
• 1:08:28
  The Secret Prayer. Who's that by? Joe Vitale.
• 1:08:32
  Okay. We're going to link that in the notes.
• 1:08:34
  We're going to link that in the notes. Okay.
• 1:08:35
  I've never heard it before. I'm going to have
• 1:08:37
  to read it. I'm going to have to read it. What's
• 1:08:39
  your favorite AI large language model? Claude.
• 1:08:44
  Claude. Yeah. When did Claude take over for you?
• 1:08:47
  When was that transition? Long ago. Long ago.
• 1:08:50
  I use them all, but I love Claude for writing
• 1:08:55
  and for coding and for workflows and all my apps
• 1:09:00
  and DIYs and stuff. I like ChatGPT because they
• 1:09:05
  have the GPTs so I can get specific on certain
• 1:09:10
  things sometimes. I use them all, but Claude's
• 1:09:13
  my go -to favorite. Same. Before I knew Claude,
• 1:09:17
  it was Chad GPT just because that's the one that
• 1:09:19
  I was familiar with. But as soon as I figured
• 1:09:20
  out Claude, like, well, I'm in that all the time.
• 1:09:22
  Love it. Okay. What is your number one piece
• 1:09:26
  of advice to someone getting divorced? Number
• 1:09:30
  one piece of advice. So am I, like, I'm advocating
• 1:09:34
  for this person? No. I'm just, just like my friends
• 1:09:39
  getting divorced? Start collecting your data.
• 1:09:42
  Get your, get organized. Okay. Get your inventory
• 1:09:45
  together. Let's figure out where everything is.
• 1:09:49
  Get your tax returns. Get some cash. Put your
• 1:09:52
  cash in your account. It's marital. We're not
• 1:09:56
  going to lie about it. But you're going to need
• 1:09:58
  it. That is so a numbers person response. Because
• 1:10:03
  you told us. You told us you were numbers. You
• 1:10:05
  love the numbers. You love this and that. And
• 1:10:07
  I was like, yep, that is. Well, what are we going
• 1:10:08
  to fight about, right? Let's not fight about
• 1:10:11
  the numbers. Let's just have that be the easy
• 1:10:13
  part. For sure. For sure. Well, as we wrap up,
• 1:10:18
  give us maybe kind of your overall takeaway from
• 1:10:23
  this topic of communication and about Allison's
• 1:10:31
  book, Talk. And then we'll lead that right into
• 1:10:34
  our three actionable takeaways. So high level,
• 1:10:37
  overall, kind of wrapping it up, and then three
• 1:10:39
  actionable takeaways. High level, I think, you
• 1:10:43
  know, the more you can practice T -A -L -N -K,
• 1:10:47
  the better communicator you'll be, which will
• 1:10:49
  trickle into every aspect of your life. So I
• 1:10:53
  think it's worth practicing, studying, and improving
• 1:10:57
  upon. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Okay, so what are
• 1:11:02
  our three actionable takeaways? Top takeaways.
• 1:11:05
  I'm going to say, number one, topics. Be prepared.
• 1:11:09
  Spend a little time to be prepared. Ask better
• 1:11:11
  questions that will just make you connect with
• 1:11:16
  your person. And listen. Be an active listener.
• 1:11:22
  Show the person you care. Fabulous. I love it.
• 1:11:26
  Yeah. Thank you so much for being on with us
• 1:11:28
  today. Of course. Great conversation. I know.
• 1:11:30
  It was fun. As you lead this conversation, remember
• 1:11:33
  that yes, the past can hurt. And you can either
• 1:11:37
  run from it or you can learn from it. So here's
• 1:11:40
  to learning and finding joy in the journey. See
• 1:11:44
  you real soon.