Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 111: George Taylor - Overcoming Early Retirement from Rugby Concussion to Family Business

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111: George Taylor - Overcoming Early Retirement from Rugby Concussion to Family Business · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today on the show, I have George Taylor.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: George is on a mission.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Having begun his career working through the ranks of Scottish rugby, he joins us after his retirement to tell us about his new found and multifaceted career.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a great show.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Having created, run and sold a successful business whilst training and playing, he now is going to join me and kind of talk about what he's doing within his family business, an area that I find super fascinating.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: George, welcome to the show.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you very much, Cheers Ryan.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Great to be here.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: You know, what I really liked about the intro and you know, learning a little bit about you as we've been going through this is that shift of your individual entrepreneurialism rugby, family, business and all of that stuff sort of being pulled together, and to me it's just actually quite fascinating, uh, to see some of the stories that you're going to be able to share with us today yeah, I mean, hopefully I can kind of provide a bit of an insight to maybe some of the younger generation coming through into professional sport.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: You know something that we got delivered at a certain level, um, at Edinburgh rugby um, not a massive amount day to day, but it was still kind of pushed to really think about that, that career after rugby, um, and it's something I've always had at the front of my mind which for every player pushing into professional sport is it's absolutely fundamental yeah, absolutely right.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: And and look now as a sort of retired rugby player, what is it that you're up to nowadays, wasn't?
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: the plan, but I'm actually now in finance so I'm studying accountancy, um.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: So it's a completely different career change from professional rugby.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I had kind of a plan.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Plan A was obviously push as far into the rugby career as I can or could do.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: And then plan B was kind of take that rugby experience into either coaching or move into the strength and conditioning side of things, um.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: And obviously I had a plan c as well which ended up being the the uh, what's what I'm doing now?
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: And for me that that was important to have two extra plans because you know anything can happen and my career was cut short and a lot shorter than anticipated.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: So having that plan C really did help, which was becoming part of the family business.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: So now I am working in the accounts department of Merlin Vet, which is the family business.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I love the fact you'd really considered these various options fascinating, that the family business was the last of those options, I think that's actually that in itself, uh, tells a lot, or at least there's certain stories you could weave into that.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: But you know, let's kick in a little bit then about you and and and sport.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: So early on in your career, so early on in your life, what was the meaning or what meaning did sport hold for you?
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: sport was a chance to group up with friends, you know, mates that you you saw in school, um, but obviously a chance to just be in that group environment, um, and be part of a team.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: You know, rugby has a really good team ethos, team environment and and that's kind of why I love being part of a team you're with your mates, you're playing the sport that you love.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: Um, although rugby wasn't my, my first choice of sport when I was younger, um, you know, when I was about 10, 11, 12, growing up, I loved football, absolutely loved it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: So I played football on a Saturday and almost got forced to play rugby on a Sunday.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: You know my brother, richard he's a year older than me.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: He played, he loved it as well, and mum and dad were like, well, if Rich is going to rugby training, you're going too, um.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: So I kind of used to kick up a bit of a fuss, but you know, after a couple of years of that, I soon fell in love with it and, um, from the age of six, I've I've played rugby, um, and then kind of intertwined rugby and football together, but then obviously rugby, rugby did come out on top.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: What do you think happened to make you start to?
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: You know, prefer one over the other I think it was down to ability.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: You know, I started to enjoy rugby that a little bit more because I was maybe a bit better at it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: My football skills now are pretty diabolical, but the rugby did kind of take charge because of ability and, and then I was part of a really great team at Melrose, you know, ever, ever since, um, my, my minis, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13 years old.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: They had a really good youth setup and that kind of that spurred me on to just get better and better, and the better I got, the more I enjoyed it and that just really helped to kind of tip rugby over the edge and, you know, make it a lot more enjoyable than football.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting how there is an enjoyment factor and we talk a lot, lot about youth.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: It's about playing, it's about enjoying the game and, you know, finding that love for it.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: And I guess it comes at some point where an enjoyment and the love perhaps starts to wane.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: When you want some success, you want to start feeling a sense of talent, want to start feeling a sense of talent, and one of the traits I find in a lot of elite athletes is that desire for mastery, that desire to become excellent at the game.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: For you, what was the moment where you started to realize hold on, I'm good at this, I could, I could really go further.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: I mean it was.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: I think it happened quite early on, you know, at at Melrose Minis, melrose Middies.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: You're probably about 14, 15 years old and I wasn't bigger or quicker than anyone else.
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: I just loved to work on my own skills and try and improve and I always had quite a poor left-hand pass.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: And I remember someone coming up to me as part of a project they were doing at school or university and saying we're trying to bring this half shaped rugby ball it was called the wall ball into the market and they wanted me to use it and practice and try and improve my left hand pass with it.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: So he basically just passed it against the wall, it bounced back to you and he had a training structure for me to try and improve my left hand pass and it was probably one of the best things I ever did, because you're solely focusing on that one skill and the amount of time you put into that one skill repetition you know muscle memory it improved my left hand pass incredibly.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: So, um, but yeah, as I say, not faster or quicker than anyone, but it was just there was little bits of skill that that kind of edged me above the rest, yeah, isn't it interesting though, because it is those little bits.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: But you also put an extreme amount of practice into what probably was your weakness as far as a player goes.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: You know that ability to then do that left-hand pass.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: You probably put in more hours, which you know.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: At that point were you already in love with the game, or was it around that time that it started to sort of take hold?
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: I think it was around that time, you know, um 14, 15 years old, um, I'd been given this rugby ball to improve my my passing with and I was like, wow, this, this is amazing.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't even a full rugby ball, half a rugby ball I was given and I could then just go away in my own time and practice.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: But don't get me wrong, we had an incredible team at that age grade at Melrose and you know you played with them when you were 14 years old, all the way up to some of them 21, 22 years old.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: So those people stayed in Melrose and there's a reason they stayed in Melrose, because it was such a good setup.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: They obviously provided me with opportunities on the ball and off the ball and different areas of the field that I could try and exploit, and that helped massively.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: You know, if I was part of a struggling team, I probably would have struggled more as an individual.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so for you at that time.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: So what did you aspire to be?
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Where did you want rugby to take you?
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: I essentially wanted it to become a job.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: You know I wanted to play the sport and get paid for it.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: So there was a minimal amount but people were starting to get paid at Melrose and then the Super 6 came about and people started getting paid for that.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: So just kind of seeing people actually earn a little bit of money or, you know, get a club car through the through, melrose was was so good and it kind of inspired you to be like, oh, you know, when you're young, anything that you get given for for nothing is is so good.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: So, you know, seeing them some of the guys get, get some of the cars and whatnot, but but even just being part of that environment, you know you looked up to the first 15 all the time as you're a mini, you know they, some of the players, came along to your summer camps and they showed face, you know, gave the little tips and, um, the green yards was a big part of the ethos as well.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: The pitch that Melrose played on, again, that was something that you wanted to play on as a senior player.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: So they built the whole environment around the players and, really, looking at, a lot of the young players looked up to the older guys.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, looking a lot of the young players looked up to, to the older guys.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so with that desire to, to quite simply get paid to play, to make it your job, what did that do to you from an academic perspective?
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And you know perhaps that family, business, orientation where was your focus on those aspects of life?
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: the academic stuff was always important in our family.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: You know, um, everyone had been to university.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: My dad, he or was a vet.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Um now runs his business.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Um, mum's worked over in canada.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: You know, she's done lots of work abroad.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: Uh, my sister abby and my brother richard, they've both both done university.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: So I was the only one that that didn't do it.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: You know, I felt like I was going against the grain and a lot of people said, oh, university is the way to go.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: But for me, at that time in my life where rugby was sort of taken over it, it wasn't my first go to university.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: I got a placement at Edinburgh Napier for business management but I deferred that because I got offered academy contracts and I was sort of a bit sceptical to tell my dad that I wasn't going to university.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: You know, I wanted to pursue rugby but it was hard to tell him that.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: I think my mum was more kind of oh, you know, you do what you fancy, and it was a university letter got sent to my parents' house and you know they said they said, oh, you've got letters, I open it for me please.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: Um, and dad was like, oh, you've got zero attendance at university.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: Um, I was like, yeah, I've deferred it.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: So that's the way he kind of found out um that I wasn't attended university, but he was.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: He was happy for me I bet he was, but so did he find out?
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: After the fact or before you actually went, he found out when that letter was received.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: So, um, I didn't actually kind of tell him that I'd deferred it or whatever.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: He just found this letter and, um, you know it was quite soon after I started the academy contract and just the way things worked with rugby season in university.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: But yeah, he was pleased for me that I was kind of pursuing rugby and what I wanted to do.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: When you think back, would you have done that differently?
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Would you think it obviously turned out well anyway?
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Would you have approached that decision point differently?
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: potentially?
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, if you want to do something in life, you've got to fully go for it.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: There's no point going in 50, 50, um and kind of half doing it, um.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: So I think I would have just been like you know, this is what I want to do, this is what I really want to put my focus on, and it wouldn't change the outcome, as you say.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: But it's maybe just being more truthful with yourself that this is actually what I want to do and I'm going to go away and smash it, and if certain people don't like that, then then that's fine, but it will come to a point that they will support you.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: That's it yeah, and you mentioned going against the grain.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: You know, from a family perspective and I guess when you think about it, becoming a professional athlete is going against the grain just from a percentage wise or population wise.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: It means you are standing out in some way now for you then entering into that rugby world and you know, I guess, starting to achieve that dream, what was it like for you?
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: What was that shift from school, from club or, you know, junior academy into getting into the academies, what?
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: How did that?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Change things for you?
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: when you're in school and someone would say to you you know you're going to sign academy contract straight out of school.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: You know you'd be, you'd be shocked, you'd be over the moon, you'd be like, wow, that is incredible.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: But you know, as the time comes and it gets closer to it, yeah, it's just you sign the paper and then it just all kind of it just all happens.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: You know it's.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: It doesn't really come as a as a shock.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: Um, I remember making a.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: I always had a lot of self doubt and I remember making a bet with my old academy manager and saying he was like you'll probably sign pro within the next year or two and I was like there's no chance.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: I was looking up at some of the boys playing, some people in my position.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: I was like I'm not as big as them, not as quick as them, probably not as skillful as them.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: You know there was a lot of self-doubt there and I was like if, if I do sign pro within a next year or two, I'll buy you a pair of trainers, um, and he ended up leaving that job another year or two later on and sounds bad.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: But I've actually not bought my pair of trainers yet because I did sign a year after that, so I hopefully he's not listening, but I do still actually want my pair of trainers I think we're going to have to call him out in the show notes and make sure he gets tagged.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: This bit we're going to have to call him out in the show notes and make sure he gets tagged.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: This bit we're going to publicize, I think that's.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: But well, I mean betting against yourself, almost humility, to the point of betting against yourself, you know, to become a pro player.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: That's not something I've heard of before.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Usually for athletes it's I'm a gun, I'm making this yeah, and it's.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: It's an odd mindset to have.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: It wasn't a voluntary mindset, you know it was.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: It got a lot easier when I signed pro.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: You know, when I, when I signed pro and got probably the first four or five games under my belt, I was like it then took me to realize you know what I can actually do something with this.
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: Um, potentially I was maybe riding the wave early stages and being like, oh, this is too good to be true.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: But then I sort of feel that mindset helped me because if I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm so good, you know, I wouldn't be doing the extra hours on the training pitch, I wouldn't be trying to improve on some of my weaknesses.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: So that kind of pushed me to get faster, stronger, and the coaches that I had round about me in the academy in the borders in Edinburgh, they were there to facilitate that.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: So I think it's good and bad to have that mindset.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: Um, but, as I say, when, when I pushed into pro level and got some games under my belt, it certainly started to sink in that, yeah, I can, I can actually do this yeah, it's like the job's never finished, there's always something to improve.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: And know clearly you had that dedication to do that because very early on you were doing that, albeit with a new ball or a new technique, but it was that left hand pass.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: It demonstrated that ability to refine what was probably already quite good, but you were able to take it to that next level, to take to that next level.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: So for you, from a your professional career perspective, you know you'd achieved where you wanted to, to get to, to start getting paid to, to earn.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: What happened next?
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Where did you get to?
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: so first academy contract was in the borders for a year and then I signed, uh, another year, but for up in Edinburgh, uh, which kind of was good, but more accessibility to the pro side.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: You know, we went and trained every Tuesday with the professionals.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: And then after that I signed a year academy plus a year pro.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: And that was when Richard Cockerell first came in, so he hadn't seen me play, he'd only really seen footage of club level so he didn't know if I was capable at professional level or not.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: But having an agent, I had an agent when I was 18.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: He saw me play down in down in Melrose one game at under 18s and was like, yeah, we'll kind of manage you, um.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: So he helped me get that first professional deal under richard cockrell, which was amazing to get um, and then from there, you know, managed to play 37 times for Edinburgh just before I retired.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it was good to have an agent.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: How would you describe the role of an agent for you to say it's good to have one?
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: They just kind of do all the negotiations for you.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: They put your name out there.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: A lot of clubs come to them and be like we need this sort of center or this sort of fly half with these attributes, because every team's different, they look for different players and it's just kind of opened you up to the wider market which you know being down in the borders.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: It was good, it was a good standard of rugby, but these sort of coaches, they weren't often down to these games or they weren't often video footage of it.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: So it was good to have someone out there in the right market to put your name all over the place.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like having someone who's in your corner and we're going gonna talk about that your life after the game.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: But in in many respects I can't help but think it is like having a sponsor.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: So when you step out into the corporate world or world of business, often you need that sponsor, that someone who can be there on your behalf, talk you up like you and, because of their network, can actually help move you into places where you can continue to deliver value or bring value there are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: This might be at retirement, injury, or they need to juggle dual careers, between sport and a job.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the second wind academy.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: So I want to help those around me find their career.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Second wind find me on insta or through my new facebook group, second wind academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions sean longstaff was.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: He was my agent and he was very good at speaking to clubs and really bigging you up.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Because if I walked through the door and was like, yeah, hi, I'm pretty good at rugby, I'm all right, whereas your agent would be like this is what he's good at, this is what you need in your team.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: So for young guys I would say try and get an agent as early as possible.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: You know it's it's in your agent's best interest to get you as far as he can.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Obviously the hard work comes from the player, but just to initially get yourself out into that market, um, an agent is definitely the way, the way forward yeah, having someone to to sell you and that humility that you speak of there as an athlete is certainly something we we do see, despite, you know, perhaps having confidence in your unique ability.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Often that is through demonstrating it on the field rather than talking about it and explain it to others what that's like now.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: You did mention for you in your career you know 37 games and at that point you retired.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Now that to me seems very early as retirement in your career, so talk to me a bit about that situation and how you've had to move forward from there.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously I would have loved to play numerous more times for Edinburgh and potentially at the higher level for Scotland, but unfortunately it didn't happen.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Retired when I was 25, so I would have liked to say maybe another five, six, seven years under my belt as a professional, so to actually make the decision to step away from the game.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: It was incredibly tough and but I spoke to the right people at the right time and essentially it was it was down to me and how my health was at that moment in time and I think personally I got out at the right time.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: You, you know I can still go on runs, I can still gym, because essentially why I retired was head knocks.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: And I had one really bad head knock down in Wales which kind of restructured my face.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: So I broke my eye socket, my cheekbone, my jaw and my nose, so I've got kind of metal plates around that side of the face.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: So I broke my eye socket, my cheekbone, my jaw and my nose, so I've got kind of metal plates around that side of the face and it was.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: It was devastating.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: It took me a while to come back from that and build up the confidence again.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: But you know, making that decision.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: It was tough and for any professional player it would have been easy to sign again on the dotted line and kind of take more money or um.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: But I had to think about health.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: You know, when the moment for me was walking 100 meters to the shots and having to kind of sit down halfway because I was getting blurred vision and dizziness.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: So I was like, if I'm like this now, I can't really continue playing such a physical sport.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: That's right and that actually sounds like a really traumatic way to have to finish a career.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: You know we talk about in this show that period of transition.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Often, where possible, it's something that you can prepare for.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: For you, that injury um kind of just takes the the wind from the sails, so to speak.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: So for you, what did you do to get through that sort of traumatic end to your, your career?
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: for me.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: I'm someone who needs to be doing something, you know so, hence the the businesses on the side and?
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Um.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: So when I first decided to retire in january 2022 when I was 25 and one of my good friends he runs a pub in in edinburgh, opposite the commonwealth Pool, so it's something completely new to me um, I said, like, I'm still contracted to June July.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: So Scottish Rugby and Edinburgh Rugby they saw their end of the contracts, which was fabulous.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Um, but I I didn't want to sit at home and wait for that June July time to come and then I can push on.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: I said, look, I'll get some experience, earn a bit extra money in the pub.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: He gave me a job.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: I was there five, six months, glad I did it.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: But you know, dealing with the public and having that small talk was difficult.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: I love meeting new people and love talking and I love that about the job.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: But all that time on my feet and you know I'm used to going balls to the wall for an hour and a half, two hours on the training pitch and then lying down for three hours, four hours, but you know, 10 hour shift I was getting tired and I started leaning on the side of the bar and my boss at the time was like you need to stop leaning.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: And because I knew him I just kind of laughed.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: He was like no, seriously stop leaning, like it looks unprofessional or whatever.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it was credit to people who work in hospitality.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: It's a tough, tough gig.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, it is.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I've certainly spent my time, um working in in bars as well.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Um tended to pick the quiet evenings when it was just about talking, so I hardly had to serve anybody, uh.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: So I just talked to the three people at the bar.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: That, for me, was about as much as I could handle.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: So for you then, at that time you know we speak about coming through that transition and so for you, getting that early job, you know, opened you up to what you might not really want to do.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: How did you start to figure out what you would do next?
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: It almost came at the right time.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: You know, working in the pub for a week or two and my, my dad had actually said like would be great to have you in the business and we've got a good network, good at talking to people, you know, we'd love to get you on the road doing sales, um, just meeting new clients and and whatnot.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: So I was like great, perfect.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: And at the time I was doing my personal training course, um, to kind of build qualifications for that side, to kind of progress it on um, I'd already done my rugby coaching qualifications whilst playing and started my strength and conditioning quals whilst playing as well, but just finish them off as I retired.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, dad came to me offering me a job.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: I was like sales sounds great.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: And then, I think a month or two before start, and he was like, right, you're going into finance department.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: I was like okay, um, although I was refused to study maths at school when I moved school.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: So I kind of thought why not?
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: You know, we've got to give it a chance, give it a shot.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: So that's kind of where I am now.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: I'm studying accountancy, had an exam yesterday, so hopefully kind of halfway through my diploma now in accountancy and working full time in the family business.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: So absolutely loving it it's.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: It's a career change that I have enjoyed.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: It was obviously unexpected, but that kind of plan c was there to work in the family business of at some degree yeah, I'm curious about you doing the course the strength and conditioning whilst you were a player.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: What made you pick that as a subject to to go ahead and pursue it?
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: it's all relatable for me.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: So, studying accountancy, you know what I do day-to-day.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: I'm studying outside of work, so for me it's relatable.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: I'm studying what I do day-to-day.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: You know, at school I didn't really know what I was studying for, and when I made that change not to go to university I didn't really know what the end goal was, whereas for rugby I knew this is what I want to do.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: You know this is I'm practicing my left hand pass to be better at rugby.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: Um, so the strength and conditioning side was it was relatable.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: I did it day to day.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I could relate to it when I was, when I was studying strength and conditioning and the same as the coaching qualification.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: You know I could put it into real life scenarios and the way that I learn it.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: It massively helps me in that, in that aspect.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: So it's a similar way with the accountancy I can put it into work and get a real life scenario and then I kind of know more about it.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: I like the way you say the real life scenario For you.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: There's that very short time space between learning something and it being immediately actionable in your day-to-day life, and so when it was rugby, it was well, if I'm learning, what I'm learning on top is, I guess, your body, the strength, the conditioning side of it.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: But you could put that into practice to benefit yourself.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And today, working in as a junior in a accounting department or finance department, doing accounting skills straight away, you're able to apply it and you know and I can see that that's a link is that really the?
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Is that the way you see it as well?
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: that is the way I see it and it's the way I learn.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: You know it's for me, it's much easier to learn, whereas when I was at school I didn't really know what you know, I didn't have anything to relate it to.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: You know, learning french how to ask for a pink apple from a cow?
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: You know I didn't.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: It's for me, it's just nonsense.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: It's uh, it didn't didn't work for me in my brain no, no, I, I guess they are quite, quite different things, and that's probably.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: I'm now trying to get in my french and think, yeah, that's actually probably a complex uh statement to say anyway, um, yeah, you know, thinking about it for yourself.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Then, so today, you know you, you're moving into that family business.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: What does it mean for you to be part of the family business?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: it's exciting, very exciting.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: Um, in when it first incorporated, I worked in a veterinary surgery at the time.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: So we're in this small animal operating room and packing boxes and delivering all sorts.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: So it's exciting to now see how it's grown over the last 11 years to be, you know, in our own warehouse, having a nice office, nice desk.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: So I've been there from the start and I'm in it now and it was kind of from the start it was a goal to to be working there.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: I just did work in the warehouse, as I say, packing boxes.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Never would have thought I'd be doing the finance or the accountancy for for the business.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: Um, it's, yeah, quite scary, but at the same time I'm absolutely loving it yeah, it does.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It sounds exciting.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: And what's interesting is your dad, as you entered the business you were going to be in that sales or in that business development role and that shifted towards, I guess, an internal perspective, an internal role.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: When you think about that, thoughts by your dad at the time initially was get you out there.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: You're good at talking with people With that humility that you naturally have.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: When you think back to networking and sort of reaching out to people, was that something?
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Or to what extent did you do that as a rugby player?
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: quite often.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: You know you always had duties as a player.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: If you weren't playing, you'd be asked to go to the business um suite and speak, to speak to some of the sponsors, and you know they just threw you into that environment.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: There was no, there was no person-to-person uh training on that.
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: There was no interview training.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: There was nothing.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: It was just something that, oh, he's kind of used to the limelight, chuck him in and he'll be absolutely grand, but it's what the sponsors wanted.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: It's what the sponsors wanted to see, you know, players and networking and speaking to them and just kind of going out there off their own bat.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: It was essentially to make the sponsors' evening more exciting and more enjoyable.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you as a player.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: You have a unique insight into the game.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: So being there with sponsors often those who perhaps haven't played but just love watching the game, getting to chat with players definitely one of the highlights and you know having been there, it is one of those things where you say something that may seem obvious as a player, but to someone who's watching the game from a fan perspective that's deeply insightful and gives them that wow, behind the scenes type view it.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Now, being away from the game as a as a player, how do you keep connected to sport?
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: that that was kind of one of the big things about leaving the, the professional environment.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: You know you were, you had your face on their instagram page once or twice a week.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: You were.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: You know links were coming in and it was.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: It was quite nice to have that sort of small fame.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: You know people talking about, yeah, this when the team sheet got announced, like it was great to see so and so back in the team.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: But then when you leave that environment it comes quite a shock.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: You know you you're almost forgotten about.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: You know new things happen, better things come um, and for me it was quite that was quite a change, um, and I did kind of try and and keep in contact with players, keep keep in contact with management at Edinburgh, and that was fine.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: But for me at the minute I'm still coaching.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: So I coached Melrose for a year and a half to keep me in that kind of competitive environment and then I've just picked up a kind of side coaching role with Musselburgh just kind of agreed that very recently.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: So a bit closer to home, easier to to get to and and not as late nights.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: So I'm kind of keeping that team environment.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Uh, togetherness, competitiveness all there, which is kind of what I've thrived on from from the professional sport that's.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's great and that connection.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: I think it's a wonderful thing to keep the I guess, that mind, in fact to keep your spirit engaged in sport in that competitive environment.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: When you think about your strength and conditioning training, is that something you weave into?
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: You know the training sets that you do as a coach as well yeah, definitely.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: um, I brought a lot from what I learned at edinburgh to the teams that I'm I'm coaching and and obviously my so my brother, he he's gone out on his own, self-employed as a personal trainer, does very well at it, so I'm now kind of teaming up with him and helping him out where he's needed, just to keep that strength and conditioning side busy.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: And it is great, loving it, it's very busy.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: So, um, and then what?
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: What I've learned from the strength and conditioning side and taking that into melrose and muscle bra and I, I like seeing people improve from what you've kind of told them.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: Um, because I've, I've been lucky enough to have that professional insight which not many of these players would have witnessed or experienced, so it's nice to be able to kind of give something back.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really good.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And when you talk to them I suppose we're coming towards the end of the conversation, but I'm interested perhaps, as you speak to them or a younger self, what sort of guidance would you give based on your experience?
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: But what sort of guidance would you give to somebody in order to support them, to find their second wind when it's time to retire, especially if it comes suddenly?
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: if I was speaking to myself as a younger person, you know, I would say just back yourself.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: You're obviously feeling a gut instinct, so why not go and do it?
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: You are probably better than what you think you are, and that was certainly the case with myself.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: But when I speak to these other players, there is that self-doubt in there as well and they don't necessarily know that.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: It took me a couple of years to kind of confront it and say, well, why have you got that self-doubt?
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: And it will happen in so, so many players and it's almost using that self-doubt to your advantage.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: There's a few players out there that will have that self-doubt to your, your advantage.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: And there's a few players out there that will have that self-doubt and they will kind of fall out of love with the game because they don't think they're good enough and they won't really have that mindset to to progress and to to work on their weaknesses yeah, I mean and I think that's really good advice because it's you know you did it right.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: You focused on your weaknesses as as one of those points, and eventually had to back yourself.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about you know, in some respects, the role that an agent played in helping to big you up, and you know that was someone who, although is in their interests uh, so hopefully get the right types of people.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: But they had to believe in you, they had to have that confidence and had to look at which environment you would thrive best in, and it sounds like that's an important role is to find someone who can perhaps give you you know, can be a mirror, can give you that guidance and lead you through or, you know, shine the light on that journey yeah, and, as I mentioned earlier, uh, an agent is great to have, but he's not your coach.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: You know he's not saying to you go and work on your left hand, pass, work on your left kick.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: You know it's, it's down to you.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: You've got to do your own individual analysis of your game.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: Um, and then, until you get into that professional environment, you, you get that one-to-one element of coaching.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: You know you've got an attack coach, you've got a kicking coach, you've got a defense coach and you've got your head coach who oversees everything.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: So it's, it's very it's a tough gig when you're younger and it's only yourself.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: You know your own worst critique, so you've got to listen to your body.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I can't help but draw a parallel to your father, who has given you some direction when it comes to what is what was.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Plan C Sounds like it's quite an excitable plan in any way, but it does seem like your dad who, looking at you as an individual, then had to make some sort of play or decision in saying, all right, well, where would you best fit in this family business?
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: But in this environment?
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: actually it's not sales, you needed better here in the finance team yeah, and that I guess that what makes a great manager is it's how they manage their team.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: And I think for dad he, he always goes off.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: If you know the figures of a business and you know how the business ticks, you'll understand.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: You'll have a greater understanding of the rest of the departments in the business.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: So it wants me to learn the figures, get a basic understanding of it, which is what I'm doing.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: But again, it's down to me to put in the hard yards.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: He can't pass my exams for me.
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: My agent couldn't improve my left hand pass for me.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: So, as I said earlier, it's it's down to the players, it's down to yourself to to put in that hard work.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: They will just manage you appropriately well said, george.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Well said.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Uh, I think that's, that's really good.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: And look, I want to say thank you for joining me on the show today, the Eve of your Sister's Wedding.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's really, really happy that you've been able to take out the time Well, in fact sandwiched between that and an exam.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: So thanks for sharing your story today.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Really appreciate it.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: No, not at all, Ryan.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Thanks very much for having me on.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.