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Breast Cancer Warriors Speak Out · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Two words that strike terror
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Speaker 1: in the hearts of millions breast cancer. Take a listen
0:24
Speaker 1: to this famous for her stunning beauty and her hit
0:27
Speaker 1: movies like Laura Croft tomb Raider, as an ambassador of
0:31
Speaker 1: goodwill in Africa and Cambodia, and again with her awp
0:34
Speaker 1: ed piece in the New York Times and the stunning
0:37
Speaker 1: revelation that she had had a preventative double messed deck.
0:40
Speaker 1: To me, she wrote, my doctor's estimated that I had
0:43
Speaker 1: an eighty seven percent risk of breast cancer. Once I
0:47
Speaker 1: knew this was my reality, I decided to be proactive
0:50
Speaker 1: and to minimize the risk as much as I could.
0:53
Speaker 1: A few years ago, ovarian cancer took the life of
0:55
Speaker 1: her own beloved mother. She said, she is speaking out
0:59
Speaker 1: for her mother. My children will never have the chance
1:01
Speaker 1: to know her and experience how loving and gracious she was.
1:06
Speaker 1: They have asked if the same could happen to me.
1:08
Speaker 1: I've always told them not to worry, But the truth
1:11
Speaker 1: is I carry a faulty gene. In February of this year,
1:15
Speaker 1: Jolie underwent the major surgery you're hearing our friends at
1:18
Speaker 1: ABC and more. Jolie underwent an eight hour operation which
1:23
Speaker 1: the breast tissue was removed before temporary fillers were put
1:26
Speaker 1: in place. On a personal note, she wrote, I do
1:29
Speaker 1: not feel any less of a woman. I feel empowered
1:32
Speaker 1: that I made a strong choice that in no way
1:35
Speaker 1: diminishes my femininity. Jolie tested positive for the gene called
1:39
Speaker 1: brocca one. Women who carry these mutations have doctors say
1:43
Speaker 1: about a sixty five percent risk of developing breast cancer.
1:47
Speaker 1: For Jolie and other women like her, the choices are stark,
1:50
Speaker 1: very stark. I'm Yancy, Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
1:54
Speaker 1: you for being with us today here at Fox Nation
1:57
Speaker 1: in series six eleven for a special edition breast Cancer,
2:05
Speaker 1: Breast Cancer Awareness, the stories of breast cancer survivors and
2:12
Speaker 1: breast cancer prevention. It's so overwhelming sometimes I don't even
2:19
Speaker 1: know where to start. It all became very real to me.
2:24
Speaker 1: I'm very sad because someone very special to me is
2:30
Speaker 1: not here. It's Ellen Clauren. I'm sure you've heard me
2:35
Speaker 1: call on her many many times on Crime Stories. Was
2:39
Speaker 1: one of the first two writers reporters that joined me
2:45
Speaker 1: when I left HLN to launch Crime Stories and Crime Online.
2:53
Speaker 1: I love her. Ellen passed away suddenly in the midst
3:01
Speaker 1: of a battle with breast cancer. Her death was sudden
3:08
Speaker 1: and unexpected. We hear at crime Stories in Crime online
3:11
Speaker 1: dot com. Knew her personally as a friend and a
3:15
Speaker 1: colleague that gave her all until she was stolen from
3:21
Speaker 1: us during treatment for breast cancer. Listen such a great person,
3:28
Speaker 1: so full of life. You may have seen her. She's
3:32
Speaker 1: been at every single crime Con. Were working at the
3:38
Speaker 1: Crime Stories and Crime Online booth, helping you take pictures,
3:43
Speaker 1: selling you stuff, giving you information about cases and where
3:48
Speaker 1: to go. I miss her so much and crime Con
3:56
Speaker 1: will never be the same without Ek. We spoke to
4:02
Speaker 1: Ellen's father, Jack Listen well, I was devastated, and not
4:10
Speaker 1: only that, but prior to Ellen being diagnosed with breast cancer,
4:15
Speaker 1: her older sister Katie was diagnosed with stage zero breast
4:21
Speaker 1: cancer about three or four years prior, and Ellen herself
4:31
Speaker 1: was primarily responsible for getting Barbara and Katie and ultimately
4:42
Speaker 1: Ellen herself to realize that unfortunately, the cancer Jean I
4:49
Speaker 1: believe it's called the brockergene had been passed down from
4:54
Speaker 1: her mother to Katie and also to Ellen after an
4:58
Speaker 1: incredibly i've fight. She shared very little of her ailment,
5:07
Speaker 1: her suffering with others, and just when we all thought
5:13
Speaker 1: ek Ellen had beaten breast cancer, the news came right
5:21
Speaker 1: here in this studio that Ellen had passed away. Her
5:26
Speaker 1: father tells us what that felt like. It's horrible. It's
5:31
Speaker 1: still horrible. It will always be horrible. It's it's you know,
5:38
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot of bad things in a short
5:44
Speaker 1: time about what this is like, and what it's like
5:47
Speaker 1: for me is you know, not a day goes by
5:51
Speaker 1: where I have these strong, i'll call it punches in
5:56
Speaker 1: the gut that my daughter is gone, and there's so
6:01
Speaker 1: much more I wanted to do with her and for her,
6:05
Speaker 1: And it's just very, very unbelievably set with me an
6:13
Speaker 1: incredible panel. I'm not only doctors and experts, but breast
6:19
Speaker 1: cancer survivors warriors. First, I want to go to Barbara's shop.
6:24
Speaker 1: This is Eka Ellen's mother. She's a breast cancer survivor herself.
6:29
Speaker 1: Thank you, Barbara. I know it's been described that you
6:34
Speaker 1: passed the gene to both of your daughters, Katie and Ellen.
6:37
Speaker 1: I don't see it that way. This gene is insidious
6:42
Speaker 1: and so many people have this gene. You fought breast
6:48
Speaker 1: cancer and survived. I did. What How did it hit
6:53
Speaker 1: you when you learned Ellen Eka as I called her,
6:58
Speaker 1: had breast cancer. Well, I'd be back up a little.
7:00
Speaker 1: I was diagnosed last September with left sided breast cancer.
7:05
Speaker 1: I had chemo therapy through the winter. In early March,
7:09
Speaker 1: I had surgery. I had a second round of chemoil
7:14
Speaker 1: in the spring, and during the summer I had a
7:17
Speaker 1: round of radiation therapy. Now Ellen knew I was in therapy,
7:24
Speaker 1: and so she did not share with me her breast
7:26
Speaker 1: cancer prognosis, which I completely understand and I have no
7:33
Speaker 1: problem with that whatsoever. So I was not aware that
7:38
Speaker 1: Ellen had breast cancer until after she died of a
7:42
Speaker 1: ruptured brain aneurysm, miss shot. I did not know she
7:46
Speaker 1: kept her breast cancer battle a secret from you. What
7:50
Speaker 1: I did know, that's fine, is that as she was
7:55
Speaker 1: working and just churning out so many incredible stories for
7:59
Speaker 1: clim online dot com and reporting here at crime stories
8:03
Speaker 1: so often on breaking news, we all knew that you
8:09
Speaker 1: had breast cancer and that she was helping you. He was,
8:13
Speaker 1: and we would hear that that I'm going to be
8:18
Speaker 1: a need to be off today or I'm going to
8:20
Speaker 1: be late I've got to do filling the blank from
8:23
Speaker 1: my mom right. And there was just never a question
8:26
Speaker 1: that her first loyal to, her first duty was to
8:30
Speaker 1: helping you. Oh, I know that. And she did so
8:34
Speaker 1: much research for me. And the very day that I
8:37
Speaker 1: found out she had the interruptured jurist, so she was
8:40
Speaker 1: texting to me to get so that I could get
8:43
Speaker 1: a medical cannabis to use because I was starting my
8:47
Speaker 1: second round of chemo and she felt that maybe I
8:51
Speaker 1: could use it during that time. She did a lot
8:55
Speaker 1: of research for me. But as you saying, Anthy, I
8:57
Speaker 1: thought she was just doing her regular wonder for work
9:01
Speaker 1: and I didn't know she was speaking from personal experience. John,
9:05
Speaker 1: who is Eka Ellen Kilorin's brother, is with us, John,
9:10
Speaker 1: I I write back and forth. I text back and
9:14
Speaker 1: forth with your dad sometimes, and I hate to bring
9:19
Speaker 1: it up because I know very often those in mourning
9:24
Speaker 1: maybe having a perfectly fine day, and then someone brings
9:28
Speaker 1: up the loss and it starts you back at ground zero.
9:31
Speaker 1: You have to start all over again. But I want
9:35
Speaker 1: to tell you and Barbara just how much we have
9:39
Speaker 1: prayed for you and how beloved Eka was and is
9:46
Speaker 1: to us. When did you learn about your sister's breast cancer. Well,
9:50
Speaker 1: as my mom had said she wouldn't, she wouldn't necessarily
9:56
Speaker 1: she was indirect about what she was going through because
10:00
Speaker 1: of the she was able to sort of hide her
10:04
Speaker 1: diagnosis and the work she was doing because of my
10:07
Speaker 1: mom's diagnosis, and also because of my sister Katie, our
10:09
Speaker 1: older sister, Katie's prior diagnosis, and so, as my mom says,
10:13
Speaker 1: we thought that the work she was doing was largely
10:16
Speaker 1: brought about by their experience. UM, you know she had
10:20
Speaker 1: had I did know that she had had a what
10:24
Speaker 1: I was told was a preventative mitecton me month earlier,
10:29
Speaker 1: even a year earlier. I'm not sure of the timeline U,
10:33
Speaker 1: and that it was based on I was. Her story
10:36
Speaker 1: was that that was just being caut an abundance of
10:39
Speaker 1: caution because of my mom experience and because of Katie's experience. UM,
10:43
Speaker 1: I didn't find out that she was that her battle
10:48
Speaker 1: was happening until right at the very end up on
10:51
Speaker 1: out from Katie. And I appreciate you saying, Nancy, that
10:55
Speaker 1: sort of speaking the caution that it's difficult to sort
10:59
Speaker 1: of revisit the moment again, but to be honest, I
11:03
Speaker 1: as my dad had said in zom that has my
11:05
Speaker 1: mom has said it's h It's still fresh every day,
11:09
Speaker 1: So it really doesn't hearing about it doesn't sort of
11:12
Speaker 1: set me set me back in any way, because I
11:15
Speaker 1: to lose someone like that so abruptly and to sort
11:20
Speaker 1: of find out post facto that she was struggling more
11:25
Speaker 1: than she was fighting something greater than you were even
11:27
Speaker 1: aware of, is truly shocking. And I'm still in shocking
11:32
Speaker 1: about it. And I don't feel any sort of It's
11:34
Speaker 1: been six months since she passed, and I don't feel
11:37
Speaker 1: really any further away from it. But just the fact
11:40
Speaker 1: that you know this work she was doing, and she
11:42
Speaker 1: was very active and assisting, doing research and reaching out
11:48
Speaker 1: to other either survivors or women battling breast cancer, just
11:53
Speaker 1: shows how she, even in the midst of a of
11:56
Speaker 1: her really terrible struggle and this very frightening thing, she
12:00
Speaker 1: was putting other people first and and and really sort
12:05
Speaker 1: of doing and fighting the fight for them. And that
12:07
Speaker 1: sort of adds to the tragedy of her Abara loss
12:25
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Ellen passed away abruptly and
12:31
Speaker 1: suddenly as she was getting treatment for her breast cancer um, Barbara,
12:39
Speaker 1: was it during radiation or chemo that the anurism occurred
12:43
Speaker 1: that Ellen's and that she was it was during chemo
12:47
Speaker 1: um uh and um she was in New York and
12:50
Speaker 1: um they called her. One of her friends that had
12:53
Speaker 1: gone with her called to Kelly that she had had
12:56
Speaker 1: a seizure and I said, well, okay, but what caused
12:59
Speaker 1: the seat sure and um. So then she stated, is
13:03
Speaker 1: it okay for you to speak with the doctor, which
13:05
Speaker 1: of question, of course it was. So it was during chemo. Um,
13:10
Speaker 1: during when she was in treatment for chemo. But as
13:14
Speaker 1: and when we all go to New York very quickly
13:16
Speaker 1: um um as we all found out it had um
13:21
Speaker 1: it was the what she had died of was the
13:24
Speaker 1: ruptured brain aneurysm. But she was To answer your question,
13:28
Speaker 1: it was during chemo rather than radiation that she recovered.
13:31
Speaker 1: Joining me. Two incredible doctors that have broken their schedules,
13:37
Speaker 1: and you can only imagine. These are breast cancer specialist
13:41
Speaker 1: doctor William J. Gratis, shar Betsy Branson, Professor a breast oncology,
13:47
Speaker 1: Professor of Medicine, Chief Division of Hematology and Oncology at
13:52
Speaker 1: Northwestern On Twitter at doctor W. Gratis Shar also with me.
13:58
Speaker 1: Doctor Hope asked Rugo, professor of Medicine UCSF Helen Diller
14:04
Speaker 1: Family Comprehensive Cancer Center in San Francisco, breaking their incredible
14:12
Speaker 1: schedule of surgeries of breast cancer patients and survivors, to
14:18
Speaker 1: speak out today also with me, in addition to other guests,
14:23
Speaker 1: our friend and colleague, renowned psychologist joining us from Manhattan,
14:28
Speaker 1: and breast cancer survivor Karen Stark to doctor Gratis Sharp,
14:35
Speaker 1: thank you so much, doctor and doctor Rugo for being
14:38
Speaker 1: with us. Doctor Gratis Sharp, have you noticed that so
14:42
Speaker 1: often breast cancer warriors keep their battle a secret? Why
14:48
Speaker 1: is that? Well, I don't know that all patients do that.
14:51
Speaker 1: I think some patients rely on the support of family
14:55
Speaker 1: and friends when they go through it. There are others
14:58
Speaker 1: who want to remain private. Then they don't want to
15:01
Speaker 1: be viewed by others in any different sort of way.
15:04
Speaker 1: So I think it's an individual decision. Patients cope with
15:08
Speaker 1: their illness in different ways, depending on who they are,
15:12
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's one pattern that fits all patient.
15:16
Speaker 1: You know, doctor Rugo joining me, Doctor Hope, s Rugo
15:19
Speaker 1: joining us from San Francisco. Doctor Rugo again, to thank
15:23
Speaker 1: thank you so much to both of our doctors joining us.
15:27
Speaker 1: I find that very often treated differently than some other ailment,
15:35
Speaker 1: like Okay, I've got kidney stones, or I've got a
15:38
Speaker 1: heart problem, or I broke my ankle. There's something about
15:42
Speaker 1: breast cancer. It seems to be more secretive to the
15:46
Speaker 1: patient and I'm not understand. I'm not clear why, and
15:51
Speaker 1: I wonder if that has something to do with why
15:53
Speaker 1: so many women don't get tested. I think that that's
15:58
Speaker 1: a very very good point. I think there is some
16:01
Speaker 1: of a stigma associated with being diagnosed with a cancer,
16:06
Speaker 1: particularly I see that in my young patients, where they're
16:10
Speaker 1: worried about the impact on the school families, their kids,
16:14
Speaker 1: and their community and somehow thinking they're less capable or
16:18
Speaker 1: less able, or that there we see this also some
16:21
Speaker 1: fault involved in them in the diagnosis itself. I've seen
16:28
Speaker 1: that also. I think that people feel that reactions to
16:31
Speaker 1: people around them can be that of fear and anxiety
16:37
Speaker 1: for themselves, so that the patients hide it because they
16:40
Speaker 1: don't want to deal with that. The other thing I've
16:42
Speaker 1: noticed is that when people will share their diagnosis, that
16:46
Speaker 1: a lot of times their friends meaning well will share
16:50
Speaker 1: with them bad stories, and that can actually be very
16:53
Speaker 1: stressful as well. So I think that there are a
16:55
Speaker 1: number of reasons for work. For example, I've had patients
16:59
Speaker 1: who worked very carefully to wear wigs and to go
17:02
Speaker 1: in every day to hide it from work because they
17:05
Speaker 1: felt that it would negatively impact their work situation. We
17:10
Speaker 1: really work on trying to make this more open, and
17:13
Speaker 1: I think some of the stories you've shared go a
17:15
Speaker 1: long way to try and help people feel less of
17:18
Speaker 1: a stigma with the diagnosis. But the issue about when
17:21
Speaker 1: you go and have your screaming is even more complicated.
17:25
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of fear for finding
17:28
Speaker 1: something and what that will mean, and that fear often
17:32
Speaker 1: keeps people from doing screening or coming in when they
17:35
Speaker 1: feel alone. I actually started crying while you were talking,
17:38
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. My next guest is Karen Stark,
17:43
Speaker 1: and it was her idea some time ago to formulate
17:49
Speaker 1: and create a breast cancer awareness program. She was to
17:56
Speaker 1: join with ek and producing our program, and Ellen did
18:04
Speaker 1: not make it to today. Karen Stark, you, along with
18:11
Speaker 1: Barbara and John, are going to have to speak for Ellen.
18:15
Speaker 1: Your cancer battle goes back and we have really been
18:20
Speaker 1: through it halfn't we? Yes, Nancy, we have. It's so
18:23
Speaker 1: hard to talk about Ellen. And we became close because
18:29
Speaker 1: we were talking about doing the awareness and it just
18:35
Speaker 1: seemed like it was so essential to get people to
18:40
Speaker 1: be not only get people to be aware, but also
18:43
Speaker 1: to have then not run away from the fact that
18:48
Speaker 1: they had breast cancer. And Ellen oh Well was so brave.
18:53
Speaker 1: She was diagnosed with a type of breast cancer that
18:57
Speaker 1: was very frightening, and we talked about what to expect
19:02
Speaker 1: until this day. I feel like the last time I
19:05
Speaker 1: talked to her was when she was starting to have chemo,
19:09
Speaker 1: and I told her, You're gonna be fine. I went
19:13
Speaker 1: through it. You know it's You'll be maybe a little sick,
19:17
Speaker 1: but it will be over before you know it. And
19:20
Speaker 1: of course what happens with someone that you care so
19:23
Speaker 1: much about the eyes is that you feel like, why
19:27
Speaker 1: did I say that? You know, like it just feels
19:31
Speaker 1: so wrong. Oh, Karen, no, I disagree. You gave her
19:38
Speaker 1: additional strength and courage to keep going. You did. We
19:42
Speaker 1: all did here. And even though she kept her battle
19:46
Speaker 1: secret from her mom, who was battling breast cancer at
19:49
Speaker 1: the time, and her brother, she knew that she had
19:54
Speaker 1: their love, their very very deep love. Karen's dark joining me.
20:02
Speaker 1: Your battle has gone on for years. It would seem
20:08
Speaker 1: like once one thing was cured, then it would come back.
20:13
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Karen Stark and our cut. Five
20:17
Speaker 1: years ago, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. My immediate
20:21
Speaker 1: reaction was disbelief. Went through six different surgeries and was
20:28
Speaker 1: taking to my spin. After five years, I finally felt
20:31
Speaker 1: like I was cancer free. It was time to celebrate,
20:36
Speaker 1: much too everyone's surprise, I discovered that it had reoccurred.
20:40
Speaker 1: Your cancer came back, and it was worse. Karen Stark,
20:45
Speaker 1: as I recall, see when did your cancer battle start
20:49
Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten? Oh my goodness, Yeah, I
20:53
Speaker 1: just been friends at a very long time, Anthy and
20:56
Speaker 1: I remember when you told me and everything you went through,
21:00
Speaker 1: and did your cancer start on your left breast? Yeah
21:05
Speaker 1: it was. It was always my left breast. But the
21:08
Speaker 1: only reason that I discovered that I had cancer again,
21:12
Speaker 1: and this is really important, I think, is that I
21:16
Speaker 1: had this instinctive feeling even though everybody told me, all
21:21
Speaker 1: the doctors, not that they meant me any harm, but
21:24
Speaker 1: they said, there's no reason to believe it will be
21:27
Speaker 1: in the other breast. So I listened initially, but I
21:32
Speaker 1: kept feeling like I wanted to do a bilateral mastectomy.
21:37
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until Angelina Joelie. What is a bilateral
21:43
Speaker 1: bilateral is when you take off this breath. And when
21:48
Speaker 1: I was diagnosed, they only did one breast because it
21:51
Speaker 1: was only in one breast, and they said that you know,
21:55
Speaker 1: I had stage one, everything would be fine, I didn't
21:59
Speaker 1: need chemo and I should just stick with that. And
22:06
Speaker 1: I really felt I just had this feeling that I
22:10
Speaker 1: didn't want to have my other breast. I couldn't understand
22:14
Speaker 1: what the reason was. And I understand it all surgery
22:18
Speaker 1: is a risk. Oh, Karen, I remember it like it
22:21
Speaker 1: was yesterday. You and I went round and round about
22:24
Speaker 1: whether you should have the right breasts removed. That was it.
22:28
Speaker 1: That's right. But here's the thing, Nancy, this is just
22:31
Speaker 1: so incredible to me is that until Angelina Joe Lee
22:35
Speaker 1: actolutely became went public and talked about what she did
22:40
Speaker 1: prophylactically to make sure she didn't have breast cancer or
22:44
Speaker 1: any kind of cancer, I felt like I, no matter who,
22:48
Speaker 1: including women, doctors would say to me, no, they didn't
22:52
Speaker 1: want to do the surgery on me, that it was
22:54
Speaker 1: ridiculous and a big risk, and I finally asked her
22:59
Speaker 1: only to Angelina Jolie could guide surgeons who were willing
23:04
Speaker 1: to go ahead and read. Okay, I remember all of this,
23:07
Speaker 1: and I remember adding my vote which you asked for
23:11
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, that you should have a double message to
23:15
Speaker 1: me at the beginning. Why because I was acting out
23:19
Speaker 1: of fear. I was afraid. I want to go to
23:23
Speaker 1: doctor Hope s Rugo, Professor Madison U C. S. F.
23:27
Speaker 1: Helen Diller Family Conference of Cancer Center in San Francisco,
23:31
Speaker 1: and you can find her on Twitter at Hope Rugo Rugo,
23:37
Speaker 1: doctor Rugo. Mine was a knee reaction when I said, Karen,
23:42
Speaker 1: you should have a double message to me right now.
23:46
Speaker 1: That's probably overreacting. Would you agree? Yes? I would, And
23:54
Speaker 1: I think that it's so important to really think about
23:57
Speaker 1: the individual situation. It's patient has a braca mutation. For example,
24:03
Speaker 1: as we were talking about earlier, the risk of getting
24:06
Speaker 1: another breast cancer can be quite high, and in that
24:10
Speaker 1: situation a patient may end. In many cases, we strongly
24:14
Speaker 1: recommend consideration for removing both of the breasts, and then
24:19
Speaker 1: we offer reconstruction, which of course is very important as well,
24:23
Speaker 1: But there are situations where removing the other breast really
24:27
Speaker 1: doesn't benefit you at all, and that's in the majority
24:30
Speaker 1: of women, or in situations where doing a mask sectomy
24:34
Speaker 1: primarily to treat a breast cancer may actually cause more
24:39
Speaker 1: complications for the patient and has been shown not to
24:42
Speaker 1: improve survival. So, for example, if you have a breast
24:46
Speaker 1: cancer where you know you're going to need radiation after
24:49
Speaker 1: either a lumpect to me where you conserve the breast
24:53
Speaker 1: or a mask sectomy, it actually can cause more complications
24:57
Speaker 1: if you do the mass ectomy for your reconstruction if
25:00
Speaker 1: you don't need to do it. We have very good
25:02
Speaker 1: screening now, and you know, some people who don't have
25:06
Speaker 1: a mutation will get a second breath cancer and the
25:08
Speaker 1: other breast, but that's often also very treatable, so I
25:12
Speaker 1: think we have to be sort of balance it for
25:15
Speaker 1: the patients. I also have patients who definitely do not
25:18
Speaker 1: need bilateral mass ectomies, but there's a lot of anxiety
25:23
Speaker 1: about screening biopsies. They don't want to be having MRIs
25:27
Speaker 1: alternating with mammograms, and in those situations it may be
25:32
Speaker 1: that more surgery than you absolutely need is still the
25:35
Speaker 1: right choice for the patient, But in the majority of
25:37
Speaker 1: patients that's not true. Doctor William Gratishar is with us
25:41
Speaker 1: from the Betty Branson He's the Betty Branson Professor. He
25:46
Speaker 1: is a professor of breast oncology. He is at Northwestern University.
25:52
Speaker 1: Doctor Gratishar, Why would someone young and otherwise healthy have
26:00
Speaker 1: an aneurism during their chemo? Is there something about chemo
26:05
Speaker 1: that would cause that? Well, I was listening to that description,
26:10
Speaker 1: and you know, coming coming at this when the patient
26:14
Speaker 1: is not your own, it's difficult to make any concrete
26:17
Speaker 1: common but you know, more likely than not, it had
26:20
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to do with her breast cancer, her treatment
26:25
Speaker 1: via chemotherapy or radiation. It could very well have been
26:29
Speaker 1: just a coincidence that she also had an aneurysm. Chemotherapy
26:35
Speaker 1: does not cause aneurysms, Radiation doesn't really cause aneurysms. Breast
26:40
Speaker 1: cancer doesn't cause so it's just an unfortunate circumstance based
26:45
Speaker 1: on what I can believe the description Time stories with
26:54
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. You know, recently I read an article. I
26:59
Speaker 1: know you hate it. Both you and doctor Rugo must
27:02
Speaker 1: hate it. When you have a patient say I read
27:05
Speaker 1: an article or they say I googled, And I wonder
27:10
Speaker 1: what the doctor thinks when I say I googled. I
27:14
Speaker 1: wonder if they just tune out automatically, or if they
27:16
Speaker 1: stick with it and hear what I googled. But I
27:21
Speaker 1: read an article alleging that mammograms are really not the
27:27
Speaker 1: litmus test for breast cancer. I find that hard to believe.
27:33
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't want to believe it. But what do
27:36
Speaker 1: you make of that assertion, Doctor grandishar well, I don't
27:40
Speaker 1: know what the context was. I think we have to
27:42
Speaker 1: look at the tools that we currently have available, and
27:46
Speaker 1: no one, I think, would say that mammograms are perfect.
27:50
Speaker 1: No one. I'm sure doctor Rugo wouldn't say that either.
27:53
Speaker 1: But it's the best tool we have that's been validated
27:57
Speaker 1: as a screening measure, and we recognize that even with
28:01
Speaker 1: the best tools we have, we still miss some breast cancers.
28:06
Speaker 1: There are other extremes, you know, some people want to
28:09
Speaker 1: get MRIs and a variety of other tests, but the
28:12
Speaker 1: problem there lies that they can be supersensitive finding all
28:16
Speaker 1: kinds of things that are absolutely unimportant, leading to unnecessary
28:23
Speaker 1: biopsies and further evaluations. So mamograms still remain the best
28:28
Speaker 1: tool we have that's currently available, and of course everybody's
28:33
Speaker 1: looking to try and optimize those or develop new technologies
28:38
Speaker 1: that will make it easier to detect breast cancer. And
28:41
Speaker 1: to that end, you know, there's been computer assisted imaging
28:44
Speaker 1: and a variety of other tools that are being evaluated,
28:47
Speaker 1: but today it's still a mammogram. Okay, I just heard
28:53
Speaker 1: Nancy jump in. I want to speak to that for
28:55
Speaker 1: a moment. That is true, the best is a mamogram.
28:59
Speaker 1: But my breast cancer never showed up in a mamogran.
29:03
Speaker 1: It was only when they did an actual snogram on
29:09
Speaker 1: me that they were able to find three tumors, and
29:13
Speaker 1: they were three tumors because I had had a mamogram
29:15
Speaker 1: and they hadn't picked it up six months to be
29:19
Speaker 1: I think that's such an important point, really an important point.
29:23
Speaker 1: This is Hope Prugo that most of the cancers that
29:26
Speaker 1: have the that are the most aggressive or have worse
29:31
Speaker 1: outcome or need more intensive treatment, or what we call
29:35
Speaker 1: interval cancers, they happen in between imaging and if you're
29:39
Speaker 1: young and have dense breasts, you may not see these
29:42
Speaker 1: tumors at all, and I'm surprised how many post amount
29:45
Speaker 1: of plausa. Women have dense breasts as well. So if
29:49
Speaker 1: you feel a lump and you feel something is wrong,
29:52
Speaker 1: that absolutely needs to be evaluated. And it's so important
29:56
Speaker 1: for women to be aware of their breasts and to
30:00
Speaker 1: examine them, not in any clinical way, but just understand
30:04
Speaker 1: what your breasts feel like and evaluate them once a
30:07
Speaker 1: month or so. That helps you a lot, because you know,
30:10
Speaker 1: sometimes these cancers just show up with a lump and
30:13
Speaker 1: they don't already even seen on the mamogram you had
30:15
Speaker 1: left things. We're hearing our computer assistant imaging. If anybody
30:20
Speaker 1: knows a better way to say that, I don't know.
30:23
Speaker 1: Is that three D? A three D mammogram? Is that
30:25
Speaker 1: what that means? Because those exist? They're okay, good, I'm
30:30
Speaker 1: making a wild guess here. Look, I'm a j D,
30:32
Speaker 1: not an m D. I need all the help I
30:33
Speaker 1: can get doctors. So you've got the three D mammogram,
30:38
Speaker 1: you have blood tests that can determine if you have
30:42
Speaker 1: the b r C A one gene. Sonograms. You just
30:47
Speaker 1: heard doctor Rugo and doctor Grandish are speaking to mammograms
30:51
Speaker 1: and sonograms. What more can we do I Nancy, this
30:57
Speaker 1: is Barbara again. Man interrupt jump in Bobara, this is
31:00
Speaker 1: Ellen's mom again. I just want to say that my
31:03
Speaker 1: breast cancer was found on mammogran, my annual one. That's
31:07
Speaker 1: how it was found. So I still think they're very important.
31:10
Speaker 1: And I do also want to agree with doctor who
31:13
Speaker 1: says that the chemo for Ellen probably had nothing to
31:17
Speaker 1: do with her death. And that was kind of what
31:20
Speaker 1: we were told by the neurologist at the hospital. So
31:24
Speaker 1: though she was being treated for sure and was in chemo,
31:28
Speaker 1: I was going through a tough chemo because now I've
31:30
Speaker 1: been through two when I understand them better, that's not
31:34
Speaker 1: what she died of. And like I said, but mammograms
31:37
Speaker 1: are very important, and mine was found on memogrant, not
31:40
Speaker 1: the same as Karen's. That was a different experience. And
31:43
Speaker 1: there is a regular mammogram and a diagnostic mammogram. I'm
31:49
Speaker 1: not really sure why you have to ask for a
31:51
Speaker 1: diagnostic mammogram. Why why do you have to ask for
31:55
Speaker 1: the diagnostic doctor grandishar Well, they do extra views. A
31:59
Speaker 1: diagnostics mammograms had more limited views and it usually means
32:04
Speaker 1: that it is routine, there's nothing suspicious keep in mind,
32:08
Speaker 1: when you get exposed to mammograms, you're getting radiation. So
32:12
Speaker 1: when they do the additional views, which both take more
32:14
Speaker 1: time expose you to more radiation. There's also a sense
32:19
Speaker 1: of urgency because the clinician or even the patient has
32:23
Speaker 1: detected something that they think is suspicious, so that is
32:28
Speaker 1: additional images that need to be done, whereas the screening
32:32
Speaker 1: mamogram is more limited and you don't want to get
32:36
Speaker 1: diagnostic mammograms on every patient, doctor Rugo. How when you're
32:42
Speaker 1: torking about radiation, a lot of people don't want a
32:46
Speaker 1: mamogram or an X ray because of radiation. How severe
32:50
Speaker 1: is the risk the radiation when you're getting a mammogram.
32:53
Speaker 1: This is an exceedingly low risk. The amount of radiation
32:57
Speaker 1: is very small. It's very focused, and you know, you
33:03
Speaker 1: always have to weigh benefit versus risk, and you think
33:05
Speaker 1: about all the times we're in airplanes being radiated, and
33:09
Speaker 1: in this situation you're having something which might help with
33:13
Speaker 1: early diagnosis in the right setting. Well, doctor Rugo, I
33:16
Speaker 1: just want to tell you something. I appreciate what you
33:19
Speaker 1: just said because I nearly tore the throat out of
33:21
Speaker 1: a dentist the other day. That want to take an
33:23
Speaker 1: X ray on my twins. I'm like, oh, hl no,
33:26
Speaker 1: because they'll get radiation. Now I feel like a big
33:29
Speaker 1: horse's rear end because I'm hearing what you're saying. There's
33:32
Speaker 1: another aspect. People women do not want mass act means
33:36
Speaker 1: they don't want to lose their breasts. And there's another
33:39
Speaker 1: concern and take a loaden to our friend Barry Peterson
33:41
Speaker 1: our cut five with CBS, women say one of the
33:45
Speaker 1: most difficult things about chemotherapy for breast cancer is losing
33:49
Speaker 1: their hair. When the treatment kills cancer cells, it kills
33:53
Speaker 1: healthy hair cells right along with it. But for many
33:56
Speaker 1: women it doesn't have to happen. There's a technique called
34:00
Speaker 1: cold caps, used for decades in Europe, but almost unknown here.
34:05
Speaker 1: These brave women took us along their journey to save
34:08
Speaker 1: their hair and with it, they say their identity. And
34:12
Speaker 1: one of those women is our friend Karen Stark. Take
34:17
Speaker 1: a listen to Karen and our cut three. I didn't
34:21
Speaker 1: want to have one more thing that I had no
34:24
Speaker 1: control over and the idea that I might I could
34:27
Speaker 1: still be me, I could still look in the mirror,
34:29
Speaker 1: I could still see myself and feel good about myself
34:33
Speaker 1: was very very important to make. It has to be
34:36
Speaker 1: fitted tightly on the patient's head to make good contact
34:39
Speaker 1: with the scalp. You can't die your hair, you can't
34:42
Speaker 1: cut your hair, you can't you know, comb, You have
34:45
Speaker 1: to be very careful how you wash it. And there's
34:47
Speaker 1: just so many rules and more. Ice caps have to
34:50
Speaker 1: be frozen to an incredibly called subzero temperature using either
34:55
Speaker 1: a special freezer or dry ice. Your head is being numbed,
35:00
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like an ice cream headache at first.
35:03
Speaker 1: And the caps have to be rotated on the patient's
35:06
Speaker 1: head every thirty minutes to ensure that they keep the
35:10
Speaker 1: right coal temperature. I want women to know about this.
35:14
Speaker 1: It's so important to be able to maintain some normalcy
35:17
Speaker 1: in your life. You're not just saving your life, you're
35:20
Speaker 1: saving your hair. Karen Stark, your battle that's gone on
35:24
Speaker 1: for so long, and here you are a survivor, a
35:28
Speaker 1: warrior speaking out. Could you describe for us the coal
35:32
Speaker 1: cap process and what it meant to you. Well, you know,
35:35
Speaker 1: Nancy being a psychologist, and I wanted to speak to
35:38
Speaker 1: that as well. The fact that when you get a
35:40
Speaker 1: breast cancer diagnosis, it's really interesting to think about where
35:45
Speaker 1: I am today, where I could speak about it so freely,
35:49
Speaker 1: and where I was in two thousand and ten when
35:52
Speaker 1: it's there's something about it that's shameful because it's your breath.
35:57
Speaker 1: We don't go around the exposing a breast, talking about
36:00
Speaker 1: a breast, and all of a sudden you're telling people,
36:04
Speaker 1: if you choose to, that you had breast cancer. And
36:07
Speaker 1: it's the combination of cancer, the sea word, that horrible
36:12
Speaker 1: thing that no one should ever talk about back in
36:14
Speaker 1: the day. And then it's your breath that make it
36:18
Speaker 1: most difficult, at least for me. And when I first
36:23
Speaker 1: found out, all I could think about, which sounds terrible,
36:27
Speaker 1: but you know, how could I lose my breast? And
36:31
Speaker 1: I didn't need chemo that first time, so they did
36:34
Speaker 1: something on me called nipple sparing, where they save your nipples,
36:39
Speaker 1: and they saved my nipples, but they took away my breasts,
36:44
Speaker 1: and I felt like, well, I was still going to
36:46
Speaker 1: have a breast somehow that would be mine. After I
36:51
Speaker 1: decided to go and remove my second breast. What's fascinating
36:56
Speaker 1: is that I listened to my instincts. I went I
36:59
Speaker 1: pursued five years of trying to get that other breast removed,
37:04
Speaker 1: and when I did, they sound in my nipples that
37:08
Speaker 1: I had cancer again. And it's very rare. It's really
37:12
Speaker 1: unusual that it was worse cancer than the first time.
37:17
Speaker 1: So I did listen to my instincts. I wanted to
37:20
Speaker 1: include that. But part of saving my hair that second
37:24
Speaker 1: time was I'm a psychologist. I didn't want to lose
37:28
Speaker 1: my hair and wear something a wig or something around
37:32
Speaker 1: my head and had people looking at me and saying,
37:36
Speaker 1: how is she doing? How is she feeling. I wanted
37:38
Speaker 1: my patients to be able to talk to me about themselves,
37:42
Speaker 1: not about me, and it was really important that I
37:48
Speaker 1: saved my hair for that reason, and also too, as
37:51
Speaker 1: I said in that video, have some sense of control.
37:55
Speaker 1: I really concentrated on exactly. And I give all the
38:00
Speaker 1: credit to not only care and Start for speaking out
38:03
Speaker 1: about her very prolonged battle and the cold Cat process.
38:07
Speaker 1: But we have with us right now, doctor Hope Rugo,
38:12
Speaker 1: and she's at Twitter at Hope Rugo, who got the
38:16
Speaker 1: cold Cat process approved in the US. They had it
38:20
Speaker 1: in Europe, but not here, Doctor Rugo. I'm so grateful
38:26
Speaker 1: to you on behalf of so many women that have
38:31
Speaker 1: taken advantage of the cold cat process. It's really incredible,
38:36
Speaker 1: you know that, right, what you did, well, I think
38:38
Speaker 1: that you know a lot of people wanted to have
38:40
Speaker 1: cold cats available and we were so lucky. Actually, I
38:45
Speaker 1: had a patient who interestingly is a lawyer, and she said, wait,
38:50
Speaker 1: how do I lose my hair? This is about fifteen
38:52
Speaker 1: years ago, and I found this company in Sweden. Why
38:55
Speaker 1: don't you just import the machine? And I was like, well,
38:58
Speaker 1: you know, we can't do that. There's a lot of
39:00
Speaker 1: regulations here. But it started us on a path of
39:04
Speaker 1: working on the first trial actually to look at cold
39:07
Speaker 1: caps in a prospective manner with FDA's guidance, to see
39:13
Speaker 1: both the safety and effectiveness of using cold caps. And
39:17
Speaker 1: since that time, started by a patient where many of
39:21
Speaker 1: our maybe most of our best ideas come from, we
39:25
Speaker 1: were able to get FDA clearance for two automated cooling systems,
39:31
Speaker 1: and huge awareness and of phenomenal woman Bethany Horntall, who
39:36
Speaker 1: helped us get philanthropic funding for our study started actually
39:41
Speaker 1: helped to start an organization which she now runs called
39:45
Speaker 1: Here to Stay, that provides financial assistance for those women
39:49
Speaker 1: who would like to use cold caps and can't afford it,
39:52
Speaker 1: so it's really gone. Were incredible, The cost is overwhelming.
39:57
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, Christie Missouri with me Emmy
40:00
Speaker 1: Award winning investigative reporter. Could you just give us the
40:04
Speaker 1: stats on breast cancer now in twenty twenty two, it's
40:08
Speaker 1: estimated among women two hundred and eighty seven thousand plus
40:14
Speaker 1: new cases, eight hundred and fifty nearly two hundred and
40:17
Speaker 1: eighty eight thousand correct, two hundred and eighty eight thousand
40:22
Speaker 1: new cases of invasive breast cancer will be tracked, and
40:29
Speaker 1: there will be over forty three thousand deaths. Christie, I've
40:34
Speaker 1: got so many questions about the stats, but I feel
40:36
Speaker 1: I have to speak to our survivors. Karen Stark, what
40:40
Speaker 1: is your message today to women listening and men? I
40:44
Speaker 1: think the most important thing, as I keep saying, is
40:47
Speaker 1: really follow what feels right for you, and everyone is
40:53
Speaker 1: very different. Karen plays for what feels right with me.
40:57
Speaker 1: I don't want to even know, so I have to
41:00
Speaker 1: get dragged in for a mammogram because I don't want
41:03
Speaker 1: to know. But I have to know because I want
41:05
Speaker 1: to be here for the twins, So following my instinct
41:08
Speaker 1: would be putting my head in the sand, in my button,
41:11
Speaker 1: the air. That's me. But give me something else that's
41:14
Speaker 1: not just you, that's lots of people. And you have
41:18
Speaker 1: to go because this is your life, your one life,
41:21
Speaker 1: and the sooner you know what's going on, the sooner
41:24
Speaker 1: something can be done. You want to catch something as
41:27
Speaker 1: soon as you can and make sure that you do
41:31
Speaker 1: whatever it takes to survive. Karen start. You want to
41:35
Speaker 1: survive and be with your twins. Right, You're right, Karen
41:38
Speaker 1: as usual, Karen start with us. You can find her
41:42
Speaker 1: online at Karen Stark dot com. That's Karen with a S.
41:48
Speaker 1: John Kiloren, our friend, Eka's brother and Barbara shot her mom,
41:53
Speaker 1: along with the incredible doctor Rugo and doctor Gratishar Christy
41:58
Speaker 1: Mazurk Nancy Grace signing off