Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 68. Dr James Barry - the Medical Pioneer with a Secret!

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68. Dr James Barry - the Medical Pioneer with a Secret! · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Hi everybody, and
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Speaker 1: welcome to Who Did What Now? The history podcast That's
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Speaker 1: not your history class with me, your host Kerti Charlwood,
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Speaker 1: history harlot and reader of books. Before I get into
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Speaker 1: any part of this episode, we have to start off
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Speaker 1: with the disclosure. I, as a general rule, tend to
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Speaker 1: teach history in the same manner in which I speak
0:41
Speaker 1: in my daily life, which means I use colloquial terms,
0:45
Speaker 1: I use layman's language, and you know, I often swear
0:51
Speaker 1: like a sailor. So if you aren't keen on you know,
0:54
Speaker 1: curse words, swearing and the like, this is not the
0:58
Speaker 1: fucking podcast for you, and I am I gonna suggest
1:01
Speaker 1: that you go listen to something else, like by the
1:04
Speaker 1: History Channel, because because unlike me, they won't say shit,
1:09
Speaker 1: fuck or bollocks, and they're back to your regular broadcast.
1:14
Speaker 1: So yeah, it has been an amazing couple of weeks,
1:17
Speaker 1: and I'm actually so excited to really get into this
1:20
Speaker 1: month's series of videos because we just finished on the
1:24
Speaker 1: five canonical Victims of Jack the Ripper and which was
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Speaker 1: incredibly gruelling and labor intensive and kind of depressing, which
1:33
Speaker 1: you'll find a lot of history is just incredibly depressing.
1:36
Speaker 1: So I do try and find the little fun pieces
1:38
Speaker 1: here and there. But yes, the five canonical Victims of
1:41
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper is a story that I think very
1:43
Speaker 1: much needs to be told, but it does. It does
1:47
Speaker 1: take a toll to the point where I had edited
1:50
Speaker 1: about half of it and I just needed a break
1:52
Speaker 1: and couldn't do it for a while. And now we're
1:55
Speaker 1: moving on to you know, hopefully I can get some
1:59
Speaker 1: really hopeful of history because it is.
2:01
Speaker 2: Pride Month and I really want to share stories of
2:05
Speaker 2: like amazing people and just their lives, because that's what matters.
2:11
Speaker 1: That's what history is. It's about people, not just about
2:15
Speaker 1: battles and fucking planes. What is it? What is it
2:21
Speaker 1: with modern men and their obsession with tanks? I don't,
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Speaker 1: I don't, I don't care. I really don't care about tanks.
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Speaker 1: Will I go look at tanks if I'm in a museum, Yes,
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Speaker 1: Do I necessarily give a fuck about it? Now? No,
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Speaker 1: they really don't. But I'll go look at it because
2:43
Speaker 1: history is interesting because a person drove that tank, a
2:47
Speaker 1: person was in it, the actual tank itself not really
2:52
Speaker 1: that bothered. Oh and in personal news. I made some
2:56
Speaker 1: amazing friends in Gaya, as you know, and one of
2:59
Speaker 1: them is actually coming to visit me one of the fawns.
3:03
Speaker 1: I'm so excited we're gonna have like the best time.
3:06
Speaker 1: I've been working on sample chapters to send off to
3:09
Speaker 1: the publishing agents, so that's been exciting. And I've had
3:14
Speaker 1: a lot of weird people trying to like hire me.
3:17
Speaker 1: I don't know how to put it. It's like they
3:19
Speaker 1: keep saying collab with us, and it's like, no, you
3:21
Speaker 1: want me to use your service and not get paid. No,
3:26
Speaker 1: pay me for my work, or I'm not going to
3:29
Speaker 1: do it, Like I don't see why that's a controversial issue.
3:31
Speaker 1: Like anyway, I'm not going to get into it too much.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've had a lot of angry, angry men
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Speaker 1: in my comments recently whenever I call men out for
3:42
Speaker 1: doing crappy things. And I was talking about this the
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Speaker 1: other day and a lot of boy goes to me, Mom,
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Speaker 1: I don't say that because I'm a boy, And I'm like,
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Speaker 1: but are you doing mean things to make other people
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Speaker 1: around you feel bad? Are you doing like naughty stuff?
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Speaker 1: Are you saying mean things to people? And he's like, no, well,
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Speaker 1: then you don't have to worry because you're kind. I'm
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Speaker 1: considerate and empathetic. I get messages from my kids' school
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Speaker 1: to tell me of the many kind things my child
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Speaker 1: has done, like because he has gone out of his
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Speaker 1: way to ensure that somebody was okay and that somebody
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Speaker 1: wasn't hurt and all this stuff. So yeah, I raised
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Speaker 1: really empathetic children. They're just not empathetic to me, which
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Speaker 1: some of you won't know if you've heard Baby on
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Speaker 1: her as my co host, my co host. Oh but Bubby,
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Speaker 1: he'll probably be coming in at some point as well.
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Speaker 1: But anyway, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, quit
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Speaker 1: your jibber jabber in fact me, In fact you I will.
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Speaker 1: But first we've got to get our source on. Our
4:52
Speaker 1: sources are The Strange Story of Doctor James Barry by
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Speaker 1: Isabelle ray Rim, The Tale of a Pioneering Military Surgeon
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Speaker 1: by Robert Leach, The repeated Female Army Surgeon Letter from
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Speaker 1: Deputy Inspector Bradford by Edward Bradford. That's in the Medical
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Speaker 1: Times in Gazette. The Secret Life of Doctor James Barry,
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Speaker 1: Victorian England's most eminent surgeon by Rachel Holmes. Doctor James
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Speaker 1: Barry the early years revealed by Michael Hercules Duprez in
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Speaker 1: the South African Medical Journal. The Male Military Surgeon who
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Speaker 1: Wasn't by Stephanie Penn. The Reputed Female Army Surgeon letter
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Speaker 1: from dj C. Cookworthy in the Medical Times. In Gazette again,
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Speaker 1: Doctor James Barry, a woman ahead of her Time by
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Speaker 1: Jeremy Dronfield and Michael Duprez. Neo Victorian Biographilia and James
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Speaker 1: Miranda Barry, a study in transgender and trans genre by
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Speaker 1: Anne Heilman. And of course we have our favorite history
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Speaker 1: dot com and biography dot com. Now are you sitting
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Speaker 1: comfortably good? Then let's begin. This episode is actually dedicated
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Speaker 1: to Audre, who hasn't been a long time follower and
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Speaker 1: you know, just deserves, just deserves a little shout out.
6:17
Speaker 1: This episode's for you, and today I'm going to tell
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Speaker 1: you the tale of doctor James Barry. Now this is
6:25
Speaker 1: a little bit contentious because it can be taken three ways,
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Speaker 1: and without James Barry themselves, there is no accurate way
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Speaker 1: for us to have an answer or you know, a
6:38
Speaker 1: definitive conclusion. All we can do is guess, especially considering
6:43
Speaker 1: it's a completely different you know, cultural and social context,
6:47
Speaker 1: you know, so I am going to change pronouns as
6:51
Speaker 1: well during this. You should all be prepared for that.
6:54
Speaker 1: So there are three arguments to whom doctor James Barry
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Speaker 1: was like their gender identity specifically, and there were three
7:05
Speaker 1: arguments for that, and it's going to be up to
7:08
Speaker 1: you to make your own mind in the end. I
7:09
Speaker 1: have my own opinion. I'm kind of teetering between two
7:13
Speaker 1: more than the other. But that's just me, and we'll
7:16
Speaker 1: discuss it at the end. I say discuss it. I'm
7:18
Speaker 1: going to say things to you, and you can agree
7:21
Speaker 1: or disagree. You can shout out your phone or your
7:23
Speaker 1: laptop or however you're listening to this. I don't know.
7:26
Speaker 1: I through you're Alexa or something hymns to say. But yes,
7:30
Speaker 1: we're going to start at the beginning where doctor James
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Speaker 1: Barry obviously it wasn't born a doctor didn't like shoot
7:39
Speaker 1: out of the birth canal and was like stamp, here's
7:42
Speaker 1: your doctorate. I understand that medical expertise during the Victorian era,
7:47
Speaker 1: you know, weren't super but you know, they weren't exactly
7:52
Speaker 1: handing them out. Once the cord was cut. So James
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Speaker 1: was born Margaret and Bulkley in seventeen eighty nine. Now
8:06
Speaker 1: there is some contention about the birthday. Why are we
8:09
Speaker 1: surprised exactly this one isn't actually you know, general patriarchal
8:15
Speaker 1: bullshit this time. No, this was actually because of Barry,
8:19
Speaker 1: because they were like fudging the numbers at one point,
8:21
Speaker 1: which we'll get into. So Margaret An Bulkley was born
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Speaker 1: in seventeen eighty nine in Cork, Ireland, to Jeremiah and
8:29
Speaker 1: Mary Anne Bulkley. So Jeremiah he ran the way House
8:33
Speaker 1: in Merchants Cay and Cork. But so Irish was under
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Speaker 1: British rule at this point and as such, if you
8:41
Speaker 1: know anything about the history, there was a massive, massive
8:47
Speaker 1: anti Catholic sentiment, so like sectarianism absolutely righte right. So
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Speaker 1: he ends up losing his job, goes into debt and
8:55
Speaker 1: then ends up in debts prison, leaving the rest of
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Speaker 1: the family kind of down on their luck. In Margaret's
9:01
Speaker 1: older brother John, he's not really in the picture. He
9:05
Speaker 1: isn't helping out in any way. He does go on
9:07
Speaker 1: to get married, so he's probably dealing with that, but
9:10
Speaker 1: like he's not involved in this in any way. So
9:14
Speaker 1: at some point, Julianna is born, that is Margaret's younger sister,
9:19
Speaker 1: Margaret and John's younger sister. Actually she's born, and there's
9:22
Speaker 1: all the speculation that it's you know, Margaret's secret baby,
9:28
Speaker 1: and it's it's not. It's mary Anne's. All evidence points
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Speaker 1: to mary Anne having an affair, having a baby, and
9:36
Speaker 1: then the husband kicking them out. So Jeremiah is like,
9:38
Speaker 1: get out, Cabby dealing with this not so after a
9:42
Speaker 1: while he's like, actually, I forgive you. You can come back in,
9:45
Speaker 1: and so they return. So then Jeremiah dies right pops
9:50
Speaker 1: his clogs. Well, no, actually that's that's incorrect. Possibly maybe
9:57
Speaker 1: kind of a wee bit. So we're not entirely sure
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Speaker 1: what happened to Jeremiah Buckley. I mean, we know he
10:03
Speaker 1: died one way or the other. I mean, I doubt
10:05
Speaker 1: he's still, you know, roaming the planes. But he either
10:12
Speaker 1: died in Ireland or he ended up being sent to
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Speaker 1: wait on a convict ship, possibly because of debt and
10:22
Speaker 1: other such scenarios. But there isn't enough information to really
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Speaker 1: give it one way or the other. And Margaret and
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Speaker 1: Maryanne they leave Ireland and they head to London because
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Speaker 1: they're trying to get in with Maryann's brother, James Barry,
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Speaker 1: who is this you know, influential artist. You know, he's
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Speaker 1: doing well for himself, so they're petitioning him for help
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Speaker 1: and he's like, nah, he doesn't do it. He doesn't
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Speaker 1: help them, and so they're struggling for two more years
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Speaker 1: until James Barry pops his clogs. So then he's off
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Speaker 1: and he leaves his sister an inheritance because he doesn't
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Speaker 1: have any known or legitimate heirs. So yeah, everything goes
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Speaker 1: to mary Anne and this sets her up a little bit.
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Speaker 1: And so this gets put into Margaret's education and things
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Speaker 1: like that, and they try to get Margaret a job
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Speaker 1: as a tutor. Unfortunately that doesn't quite work out, and
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Speaker 1: you know, there's no work for Margaret, and they're trying
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Speaker 1: to figure out what the fuck to do. But then
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Speaker 1: a plan emerges between three of Barrie's uncle Barry. Uncle
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Speaker 1: Barry with Uncle Barry's three friends. It's really it's really
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Speaker 1: a weird lineup. So we have General Francisco de Miranda,
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Speaker 1: who is a Venezuelan militia man. Really he's trying to
11:53
Speaker 1: create a revolution in Venezuela. So you've got him. You
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Speaker 1: have doctor Edward Fryer, who is a personal touror to
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Speaker 1: Margaret currently and then Daniel Warden, who is the family's solicitor.
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Speaker 1: So they start, you know, getting into Kohutz. There was
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Speaker 1: cooting happening, and they concoct a plan, and their whole
12:17
Speaker 1: plan is to get Margaret into medical school. One slight
12:23
Speaker 1: snag with this is that at the time it was
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Speaker 1: illegal for women to become doctors, and so shenanigans. They
12:33
Speaker 1: had to make Barry or well Margaret at the time,
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Speaker 1: a man. They had to change, you know, their appearance,
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Speaker 1: and it had to be convincing and it had to
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Speaker 1: last so many years just to get through medical school.
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Speaker 1: That was the plan, and so they thought they'll apply
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Speaker 1: to the University of Edinburgh because one pretty advanced. In
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Speaker 1: two nobody really knew them up there, and before you
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Speaker 1: could say boo, Margaret and Bulkley was now James Barry,
13:03
Speaker 1: the nephew of Mary Anne Bulkeley. And from now on
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Speaker 1: I will be referring to them as James Barry, hee
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Speaker 1: him all the way. So the plan was to get
13:16
Speaker 1: James educated, to have them trained up to be a doctor,
13:20
Speaker 1: and they would then travel to Venezuela, where you know,
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Speaker 1: hopefully this revolution would have happened and Francisco would have
13:26
Speaker 1: been in charge. So if Francisco de Miranda was in charge,
13:31
Speaker 1: they were happy to have, you know, a doctor. They
13:34
Speaker 1: were fussed on gender, not even a wee bit. They're like,
13:37
Speaker 1: you're fine as long as you know what you're doing,
13:39
Speaker 1: come on board. So that was the plan. That was
13:44
Speaker 1: the track they were on ABC full plan. And in
13:47
Speaker 1: eighteen oh nine, Mary Anne Bulkley and her nephew Wink
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Speaker 1: Wink James Barry board the Leed Smack and head up
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Speaker 1: to Scotland and so dramatic bagpipe music. So James he
14:03
Speaker 1: gets to Edinburgh, he's ready to go to medical school,
14:06
Speaker 1: and then they kick him out because they're looking at
14:11
Speaker 1: this wee fitler because he wasn't very tall. He had
14:13
Speaker 1: read curly hair, fine features and such such smooth, supple
14:17
Speaker 1: skin that they were suspicious and they were looking at
14:21
Speaker 1: this fellow like, hang on a second, that's not a man.
14:26
Speaker 1: That's not a man at all. That is a boy,
14:29
Speaker 1: clearly a prepubasant boy. They accused him of lying of
14:33
Speaker 1: his age. So it was this whole thing and he
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Speaker 1: gets kicked out and Barry he's there wiping the sweat
14:41
Speaker 1: from his brow, like, yep, that's exactly the case. Look
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Speaker 1: at me, such a young and luckily for Barry, they
14:49
Speaker 1: had friends in high places, like the Earl of Buchan,
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Speaker 1: who pulled a few strings, called in some favors, and
14:56
Speaker 1: what do you know, Edinburgh decided that Barry was allowed
15:00
Speaker 1: to stay. Yay. Now, Barry being slight and you know,
15:06
Speaker 1: not very tall, and having very fine features and you know,
15:11
Speaker 1: a higher pitched voice than the average bear, it wasn't
15:16
Speaker 1: great for them. It also led to Barrie having quite
15:19
Speaker 1: a bit of a temper, right, so massive temper a
15:23
Speaker 1: bit of an issue, and whenever anyone mentioned their voice
15:27
Speaker 1: being like higher than it should be, and they were
15:29
Speaker 1: like mocking them for it. On more than one occasion,
15:33
Speaker 1: he challenged someone to a duel, which is of course
15:38
Speaker 1: he did, even though even though you're not supposed to
15:41
Speaker 1: be dueling at this point, fairly certain it's illegal. But yeah,
15:45
Speaker 1: So they spend the next couple of years and he
15:47
Speaker 1: graduated Edinburgh and then he heads down to London where
15:51
Speaker 1: he trains as a surgeon. So Barry is now doctor
15:55
Speaker 1: James Barry and they are ready to head out to
15:59
Speaker 1: Venezuela and meet the role pal General Miranda. So yeah,
16:05
Speaker 1: Miranda's plan was to have like a free Venezuelan republic
16:08
Speaker 1: where like men and women were all treated equally, and yeah,
16:15
Speaker 1: unfortunately that didn't quite pan out. See, turns out revolutions
16:19
Speaker 1: are hard, and because General Miranda had some quite revolutionary
16:24
Speaker 1: ideas excuse the pun, don't excuse the plan of buck
16:26
Speaker 1: and the puns.
16:27
Speaker 2: Uh.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the other revolutionaries turned on him and then
16:32
Speaker 1: handed him over to the Spanish, the very people they
16:36
Speaker 1: were revolting against, you know. So he ends up chucked
16:41
Speaker 1: into prison and is left there to rot. But yeah,
16:47
Speaker 1: so now that that path was completely crossed off the list,
16:52
Speaker 1: Barry had to think of an alternative solution. So he
16:55
Speaker 1: did the next most logical thing enlist in the army
16:59
Speaker 1: as an assistant surgeon. So Barrie actually starts off as
17:03
Speaker 1: a hospital assistant, like to the British Army in Chelsea,
17:06
Speaker 1: and then he moves to the Royal Military Hospital in Plymouth,
17:09
Speaker 1: where he then very quickly, i might add, gets you know,
17:14
Speaker 1: a promotion to the you know, assistant surgeon, right, which
17:19
Speaker 1: is effectively like a lieutenant so he's got that, and
17:22
Speaker 1: so that's about eighteen fifteen, So in two years he's
17:25
Speaker 1: managed to move up pretty sharpish. It's after this that
17:29
Speaker 1: nepotism being nepotisming, and Lord Buchan, you know, who ensured
17:34
Speaker 1: that he didn't get kicked out of Edinburgh, He introduces
17:38
Speaker 1: him to General Somerset from Cape Town. So in eighteen sixteen,
17:46
Speaker 1: James Barry gets sent down to Cape Town, which, in
17:50
Speaker 1: a crazy random happenstance, works out really fucking beautifully for Barrie.
17:56
Speaker 1: You see, the Lieutenant General, Lord Somerset, his daughter is ill.
18:03
Speaker 1: So Barry arrives. This girl is sick, and so Barry
18:07
Speaker 1: treats her and cures her, you know, and Charles Somerset
18:14
Speaker 1: is so he's so just relieved and astounded and grateful
18:18
Speaker 1: for this that Barry gets appointed as his personal physician,
18:23
Speaker 1: which is a very very you know, high esteemed position,
18:29
Speaker 1: especially considering Barrie's low military rank. So Barry is there
18:34
Speaker 1: and he is making waves. He's been there what six years,
18:37
Speaker 1: He's appointed to the Colonial Medical Inspector and he is
18:42
Speaker 1: doing all this stuff. So there's all of these massive
18:47
Speaker 1: changes and it all kind of leads to preventative medicine.
18:51
Speaker 1: It's like preventative care. It's helping people before they get sick.
18:56
Speaker 1: So so he creates better conditions for enslaved people, prisoners,
19:02
Speaker 1: the mentally ill. He has this whole thing about military
19:06
Speaker 1: medicine and how everything is unhygienic and every needs to
19:08
Speaker 1: be better, reform and everything like that. He's great into
19:11
Speaker 1: sanitation hygiene and also kind of creates the concept of
19:18
Speaker 1: a leper colony. It's supposed to be sanctuary. But think
19:22
Speaker 1: about leprosy though, is it's also really weird because it's
19:24
Speaker 1: so slow. Like leprosy is a very slow disease, So
19:30
Speaker 1: someone could be infected and have leprosy and show absolutely
19:35
Speaker 1: no symptoms for twenty thirty forty years, even because it
19:39
Speaker 1: is such a slow mutation. Why do I know so
19:44
Speaker 1: much about leprosy? Listen, we all have our hobbies, Okay,
19:48
Speaker 1: we all do. Ah. Mine is poisons and peculiar diseases.
19:53
Speaker 1: Poisons and diseases. I worried that myself sometimes, but it's fine.
20:00
Speaker 1: So what James Barry is known for, especially is that
20:04
Speaker 1: they were the first white doctor to perform a cesarean,
20:10
Speaker 1: a C section where both the mother and infant survived
20:16
Speaker 1: because up until this point where this happens, the mother,
20:21
Speaker 1: the person giving birth, they would have an eighty five
20:25
Speaker 1: percent chance of death. Either way, both of them were
20:30
Speaker 1: not surviving. And clearly James Barry had been paying attention
20:35
Speaker 1: to the African surgeons around him because this had been
20:40
Speaker 1: going on for such a long time. There was botanical
20:47
Speaker 1: tinctures and creations that were used to even sedate the
20:53
Speaker 1: mother and promote healing on the wounds that actual scar
21:00
Speaker 1: and this had been happening for such a long time,
21:02
Speaker 1: and they did it with such precision, and they had
21:04
Speaker 1: such care the care. Clearly, you know they had progressed
21:10
Speaker 1: and they had been doing this a long time. But
21:14
Speaker 1: you know, white people just didn't want to accept that
21:18
Speaker 1: that people who were not them were actually far more
21:21
Speaker 1: advanced than they were in certain techniques and skills. I mean,
21:28
Speaker 1: the pyramids, guys, the pyramids they're not They're not made
21:31
Speaker 1: by aliens. They're just made by very very skilled workers.
21:37
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, there was this whole thing. Oh, it
21:40
Speaker 1: must be a conspiracy. It must be aliens, it must
21:43
Speaker 1: be this. No, people were just very good at doing
21:46
Speaker 1: things that you cannot fathom your brain cannot comprehend how
21:49
Speaker 1: to do this task. Like, that's not your fault. I
21:53
Speaker 1: mean it might be a weabit, but it's not just
21:55
Speaker 1: they were better at things. Get over it. So over
22:00
Speaker 1: the years, this relationship with Somerset, because they're so close
22:05
Speaker 1: and because there's a I mean, here's I could say
22:09
Speaker 1: government corruption, but they're probably is government corruption because it's colonialism.
22:14
Speaker 1: There's government corruption. And you know, James Barry got jobs
22:19
Speaker 1: and got the position because they had friends in high places.
22:23
Speaker 1: Someone of a lower rank wouldn't have that option. I'm
22:27
Speaker 1: just putting it out there. So one day this anonymous
22:32
Speaker 1: poster gets put up and it basically says that Somerset
22:38
Speaker 1: and Barry were performing sodomy. So the poster gets teared
22:44
Speaker 1: down pretty quick, but it is a whole thing, and
22:48
Speaker 1: the whole point of it was to point out government corruption.
22:52
Speaker 1: But nobody was listening to they're doing this and they're
22:55
Speaker 1: doing that, and they're hiring their friends and they're taking
22:57
Speaker 1: this money and they're spending it all doing this. No, no,
23:01
Speaker 1: they had to add sodomy d it. Well, they actually
23:03
Speaker 1: used the term buggery. Yeah, it was the only way
23:07
Speaker 1: to have them investigated. So they were investigated and they
23:10
Speaker 1: were found to yeah, not be gay lovers whatever, but yeah,
23:20
Speaker 1: big deal. Anyway, there's a few of the things that happened.
23:23
Speaker 1: There's also another scandal with a soldier's estranged wife, which
23:27
Speaker 1: leads to Somerset having to leave his post. So all
23:33
Speaker 1: of these sort of scandals come out one after the other,
23:35
Speaker 1: and the spending comes into it. People are getting a
23:38
Speaker 1: bit iffy about it, and so Somerset does eventually have
23:41
Speaker 1: to leave. But himself, Barry, he is he's in the army.
23:47
Speaker 1: He can't just squad dodle, squaddle skidaddle, skid daddle, squad dodle.
23:53
Speaker 1: What's wrong with me? Many things, but that's not the point.
23:57
Speaker 1: So Barry is there. And Barry actually introduced the smallpox vaccine.
24:02
Speaker 1: I've forgot this. He introduced the smallpox vaccine way before
24:07
Speaker 1: Europe does. Like it's it's wild, even though I think
24:13
Speaker 1: it was originally from cowpox. I think it was a
24:15
Speaker 1: woman who discovered it, if I'm not mistaken, and then
24:19
Speaker 1: nobody listened to her. But anyway, it's fine. It's not fine.
24:24
Speaker 1: It's annoying, but it is what it is. So Barry
24:29
Speaker 1: is there doing his thing and actually known for being
24:35
Speaker 1: like kind of angry and grumpy and everything else that
24:39
Speaker 1: goes with it, because I don't know how many pleasant
24:43
Speaker 1: surgeons there are out there. I feel like they're like chefs,
24:46
Speaker 1: like they're generally not the most pleasant people to be around.
24:52
Speaker 1: But anyway, Barrie is also known as this massive flirt,
24:58
Speaker 1: so flirts with so many women to the point it's
25:01
Speaker 1: deemed inappropriate. And he ends up being challenged to a
25:04
Speaker 1: duel by this dude, and there's a discrepancy is what happens.
25:08
Speaker 1: Some of it says that he shot the hat off
25:11
Speaker 1: his opponent, and the other part says that, you know,
25:14
Speaker 1: they got a flesh wound, he went away, treated himself
25:16
Speaker 1: and then came back that nothing happened, and then the
25:18
Speaker 1: two fellows became fast friends. Good for them. All it
25:22
Speaker 1: takes is you know, pistols at dawn to really steal
25:26
Speaker 1: a friendship. So not too long after the scandal, Barry
25:30
Speaker 1: actually gets promoted to surgeon of the Forces and he
25:34
Speaker 1: gets posted to Mauritius in about eighteen twenty eight. So
25:39
Speaker 1: there he is in Mauritius eighteen twenty eight. He's doing
25:42
Speaker 1: his thing and he goes a wall from the British Army,
25:48
Speaker 1: he just goes, fuck this for a game of soldiers
25:52
Speaker 1: to the soldiers, and off he pops. He heads off
25:57
Speaker 1: to England because Charles Summersond is incredibly ill, and so
26:01
Speaker 1: he goes there and he stays until eighteen thirty one,
26:07
Speaker 1: so this is like two years. Yet she spends it
26:11
Speaker 1: was twenty nine he left, so it was two years.
26:13
Speaker 1: He just pisses off from the army and when he
26:16
Speaker 1: comes back when he joins again, and he's like, I
26:22
Speaker 1: left because I needed a haircut and there aren't any
26:25
Speaker 1: good hairdresses here. Basically that was the whole jig. But
26:28
Speaker 1: like when he's questioned, they're like, your audacity is as
26:33
Speaker 1: long as your hair, So like clearly there was no
26:35
Speaker 1: haircut going on. They're like, what are you at, You
26:37
Speaker 1: absolute piss pot. So anyway, he ends up being posted
26:45
Speaker 1: to Jamaica and then to the island of Saint Helena
26:47
Speaker 1: and Will he's there. He basically shows up and he's like,
26:51
Speaker 1: what the actual fuck is this nonsense? And his temper
26:55
Speaker 1: gets him in so much trouble, so much trouble that
26:59
Speaker 1: he is a rested and court martialed with conduct unbecoming
27:06
Speaker 1: of the character of an officer and a gentleman like.
27:09
Speaker 1: He ends up getting like a not guilty play and
27:12
Speaker 1: is like honorably acquitted because I think they're just very
27:14
Speaker 1: aware of how good a surgeon like Barry is. And like,
27:20
Speaker 1: the whole reason he was court martialed in the first
27:23
Speaker 1: place was because he had bypassed the top officers to
27:28
Speaker 1: petition the Home Office for more and or better medical supplies.
27:34
Speaker 1: So after this, Barry sent to the West Indies and
27:38
Speaker 1: he's you know, focusing more on medicine preventative care, and
27:42
Speaker 1: he's very much about promoting healthcare for soldiers because he's like, hey,
27:50
Speaker 1: things need to be more sanitary when need Like the
27:52
Speaker 1: hygiene here was absolutely shocking. Things need to be better.
27:56
Speaker 1: And so he's pushing all this stuff. He's trying to
27:58
Speaker 1: get staff to be he's trying to ensure that, you know, soldiers,
28:03
Speaker 1: aren't you know, putting somebody with an infectious disease on
28:06
Speaker 1: one side and then next to a healthy person with
28:10
Speaker 1: just like a wound on the other. It's like a
28:11
Speaker 1: whole thing. So he is consistently implementing these like rules
28:15
Speaker 1: and reforms. So he ends up getting promoted again to
28:20
Speaker 1: the principal medical officer. But then in look eighteen forty five,
28:24
Speaker 1: he gets yellow fever because of course he does, of course,
28:28
Speaker 1: and he has to go to England. And then finally
28:32
Speaker 1: he gets the all clear and he heads to Malta,
28:35
Speaker 1: where he gets in trouble because of all the things
28:38
Speaker 1: to do. He sits in like a priest's pew. That's
28:43
Speaker 1: the priest's see. You don't get to sit there, James.
28:45
Speaker 1: I don't know who told you you could, but no,
28:48
Speaker 1: And then of course he has to do with a
28:49
Speaker 1: collar epidemic because nothing can never be easy ever. I mean,
28:54
Speaker 1: this is a time where diseases were like everywhere. But
28:57
Speaker 1: then in eighteen fifty one he gets sent to Corfu.
29:01
Speaker 1: So Barry is there and he is doing what he
29:04
Speaker 1: does best. He is instituting public sanitation. He's providing better
29:09
Speaker 1: health care for soldiers. He is, you know, helping medicate
29:15
Speaker 1: and reduce sexually transmitted diseases in soldiers, which was a
29:20
Speaker 1: consistent issue. Like one of the things Barry tried to
29:24
Speaker 1: do was ban alcohol, which I think is so funny
29:27
Speaker 1: because Barry was teetotal. It's probably better to keep command
29:31
Speaker 1: of your functions if you're not slashed. Probably, so they
29:36
Speaker 1: tried to ban like booze in the army, which they
29:41
Speaker 1: didn't like that even though like the majority like eighty
29:44
Speaker 1: I think it's eighty or ninety percent of accidental deaths
29:47
Speaker 1: happened at that time, like as a result of being intoxicated,
29:51
Speaker 1: and I ever already said this, But anyway, he is,
29:56
Speaker 1: you know, providing better care for soldiers. He treats everybody equally.
30:01
Speaker 1: And the funniest thing about barriers because like short temper,
30:05
Speaker 1: like really grumpy, just unhappy with everything, shows up in
30:11
Speaker 1: Corfu and there's like, what absolute fucking nonsense is this
30:15
Speaker 1: what you doing? And he's just pushing stuff in and
30:18
Speaker 1: it gets to the point where he actually prevents a
30:21
Speaker 1: typhus epidemic. Like the dude is on the ball. So
30:28
Speaker 1: while he's you know, getting things going and is really
30:32
Speaker 1: really taking care of things and is really in the
30:35
Speaker 1: best strategic position because in Corfu, I'm just like Malta,
30:42
Speaker 1: it's basically a crossroads for all of these military operations,
30:45
Speaker 1: so like one war's happening here and other battle's happening there.
30:49
Speaker 1: Because of how incredibly grandiose the British Empire was, and
30:56
Speaker 1: that is not a compliment. Because of how large it was.
31:00
Speaker 1: You know, it was a very good point in which
31:03
Speaker 1: to send you know, the infirm or the ill. But
31:06
Speaker 1: I mean, if you were getting as far as Corfu,
31:09
Speaker 1: like you weren't on death's door. That being said, you know,
31:12
Speaker 1: secondary infection was always like a massive issue. So you
31:16
Speaker 1: might be fine, but then you're gonna get like gangreen
31:19
Speaker 1: or sepsis. But as we've been shown time and time again,
31:24
Speaker 1: Barry's focus was on preventative care. It was ensuring shit
31:28
Speaker 1: didn't hit the fan, even though they did quite regularly.
31:34
Speaker 1: So when he's in Corfu, the Crimean War breaks out,
31:39
Speaker 1: and here's a thing, a battlefield tourism was a thing,
31:47
Speaker 1: like it was very popular, you know, the rich would
31:51
Speaker 1: go visit battlefields during wars. I mean, here's the thing
31:59
Speaker 1: people jump out of like airplanes and they do all
32:03
Speaker 1: of these extreme sports to like feel something. I feel
32:07
Speaker 1: like this is the you know, Georgian equivalent of this,
32:14
Speaker 1: because I don't know if we're quite in the Victorian
32:17
Speaker 1: area yet, ari are maybe anyway, the Duke of Wellington
32:23
Speaker 1: is like, you know, very impressed with Barry, very impressed
32:27
Speaker 1: with you know, all of the sanitary reforms and everything
32:30
Speaker 1: that he's been implementing, and he gets promoted by Wellington
32:35
Speaker 1: as the Inspector General of British Hospitals, which I think
32:39
Speaker 1: is like the equivalent of like Brigadier General, I'm not
32:43
Speaker 1: two upon my army terms. And then whose good old pal,
32:46
Speaker 1: Lord Raglan invites him over to Scatari and doctor James Barry.
32:52
Speaker 1: He just happens to be on leave and thinks, sure,
32:55
Speaker 1: I could go visit Scatari, and so he ends up
32:59
Speaker 1: in this hospital which is known more for soldiers dying
33:03
Speaker 1: from infections than actual wounds, and this is where he
33:10
Speaker 1: comes across. You know, this was the Victorian era because
33:15
Speaker 1: this was Queen Victoria's pet Florence Nightingale, who was just
33:22
Speaker 1: beloved to a certain point because well everything Florence Nightingale did,
33:29
Speaker 1: the lady with the lamp, the caring women for the soldiers,
33:32
Speaker 1: sort of a pioneer in nursing, some might say, But
33:39
Speaker 1: Florence Nightingale and doctor James Barrie, you think they would
33:44
Speaker 1: get along, you know, they would be long similar wavelengths,
33:48
Speaker 1: absolutely fucking not not a jot. They did not like
33:53
Speaker 1: each other. They came to like loggerheads. And the best
33:56
Speaker 1: part of this was they meet There was some kind
34:00
Speaker 1: of conversation. It does not go well, and Florence Nightingale
34:06
Speaker 1: ends up calling him a brute. We don't know what
34:10
Speaker 1: was said to Florence Nightingale. There is there is a
34:16
Speaker 1: rumor that it was something to do with her lack
34:19
Speaker 1: of hat, because she wasn't wearing a hat, but whom's
34:24
Speaker 1: to say now? On top of this as well, there
34:29
Speaker 1: is like a letter that Florence Standingale wrote to her
34:31
Speaker 1: sister saying that you know that he was a very
34:35
Speaker 1: apt physician, which is kind of a compliment. Anyway. The
34:43
Speaker 1: thing about Florence Nightingale is she doesn't like women, or
34:47
Speaker 1: she didn't like women just as a general rule. So
34:51
Speaker 1: I'm thinking maybe she took one look at doctor James
34:55
Speaker 1: Barry and went, there's no Adam's apple there. That's a
35:00
Speaker 1: woman like even on some like subconscious level, and just
35:03
Speaker 1: automatically was like, nope, I despise you. You're tenny little person.
35:09
Speaker 1: M Perhaps perhaps I do love the fact that Barrie
35:15
Speaker 1: was known to be a bit of a dandy and
35:17
Speaker 1: as such, like being so obsessed with fashion mainly I
35:23
Speaker 1: think to just hide their appearance or to alter their
35:27
Speaker 1: appearance to then comment on the lack of a hat
35:31
Speaker 1: by a woman. It just seems very on brand for
35:35
Speaker 1: me for that to be it, and I really wish
35:37
Speaker 1: it's true. But whatever happened, they did not like each other.
35:42
Speaker 1: And this had some implications for Barry because Florence Nightingale
35:47
Speaker 1: had friends in high places. She basically pushed him out
35:55
Speaker 1: of the area and was responsible for his promotion not
36:00
Speaker 1: a promotion. So Nightingale greases some wheels and she ensures
36:04
Speaker 1: that Barry is sent off to Canada. Now this is
36:09
Speaker 1: bad for a couple of reasons. One, this is a
36:11
Speaker 1: man who has spent the majority of his life in
36:14
Speaker 1: a tropical climate. So he's used to warm heat, you know,
36:19
Speaker 1: warm heat, Yes, warm heat our favorite type. He's used
36:25
Speaker 1: to warmer weather and a hotter climate, you know, that's
36:28
Speaker 1: what he's used to. And by sending him off to Canada,
36:32
Speaker 1: it's a very different climate, it's a very different atmosphere,
36:36
Speaker 1: and it's just it just seems petty and not in
36:41
Speaker 1: a good way, you know. But on top of that,
36:46
Speaker 1: Nightingale was putting together this Royal Commission on Army Medical Services,
36:50
Speaker 1: I mean it's also known as the Royal Sanitary Commission,
36:53
Speaker 1: and this was created sort of a response to again,
36:57
Speaker 1: like high mortality rates and sanitary condition during the Crimean War.
37:01
Speaker 1: So all the stuff that Bari had been fighting against
37:04
Speaker 1: in all of the infrastructure and you know, rules and
37:09
Speaker 1: regulations that he had implemented throughout his entire career Like this,
37:16
Speaker 1: this was kind of I don't want to say pledge herrized,
37:20
Speaker 1: but like m a lot of the stuff she was
37:24
Speaker 1: doing was based on his original work, like his original ideas,
37:30
Speaker 1: and by pushing him out to Canada, she was basically
37:35
Speaker 1: taking the glory. You know, I'm not trying to like
37:38
Speaker 1: denounce anything Florence Nightingale did, because you know, she did
37:43
Speaker 1: fucking lot for these soldiers. But people are nuanced and
37:47
Speaker 1: good people can still be dicks. So she did a lot,
37:52
Speaker 1: and she really did help, and she did ensure that
37:56
Speaker 1: better sanitary conditions and better medical supplies were being provided
38:01
Speaker 1: to these military personnel. However, she did push James Barry
38:10
Speaker 1: out of the scenario, so it meant that she would
38:13
Speaker 1: get this recognition and Barry would just be I don't know,
38:20
Speaker 1: a historical oddity just ignored, like it's it doesn't sit
38:27
Speaker 1: right with me us all I'm saying, it just doesn't
38:29
Speaker 1: sit right, But yeah, Barrie is in Canada and that's
38:35
Speaker 1: where things go south for him. So he's there, he's
38:42
Speaker 1: still doing when he does best again, he's fighting for
38:47
Speaker 1: better sanitation, better food and supplies, and proper bloody medical care.
38:55
Speaker 1: So he wants it for everybody, for soldiers, for prisoners,
38:59
Speaker 1: for people with long conditions, like the lepers, big on
39:03
Speaker 1: the lepers. So he's doing things for soldiers and their families,
39:08
Speaker 1: and like even here he's like, hm, this is weird
39:12
Speaker 1: that married soldiers, married couples, and then single soldiers were
39:17
Speaker 1: like sharing a barracks, like there wasn't a separate like space,
39:23
Speaker 1: and this contributed to like alcoholism and a bunch of
39:25
Speaker 1: other issues. So he ensured that they got that that
39:29
Speaker 1: separate option. And which is something you actually see come
39:34
Speaker 1: in to play later on if you listen to the
39:37
Speaker 1: Annie Chapman episode of the Five Canonical Victims of Jacquie Ripper,
39:42
Speaker 1: like this is mentioned a wee bit in it, and
39:44
Speaker 1: that happens because of barri So Barrie is again very
39:49
Speaker 1: much into just creating a better life for you know, everybody,
39:55
Speaker 1: regardless of race, gender, creed the whole shabang, right, But yes,
40:01
Speaker 1: he's fighting for better drainage and sewage systems in Montreal.
40:05
Speaker 1: He's arguing for ovens, ovens and barracks so that soldiers
40:10
Speaker 1: are eating proper nutritious meals, because you know, a well
40:14
Speaker 1: nourished army is a happy, a happy army. Yeah, yeah,
40:20
Speaker 1: sounds a bit right, but yeah. Well, he's in Canada
40:24
Speaker 1: and he's you know, pushing for all these reforms and
40:26
Speaker 1: he's doing his best. He ends up il so he
40:33
Speaker 1: contracts bronchitis, probably because he's in you know, a cold
40:37
Speaker 1: bloody area and unknown to Bari, this was going to
40:42
Speaker 1: be his final posting Canada was his last hahrah. So
40:48
Speaker 1: he contracts bronchitis and he's he's forced he has to
40:52
Speaker 1: go back to England. So he returns to England with
40:55
Speaker 1: the whole purpose of recuperating, and for about six months
40:58
Speaker 1: he's on like half pay by the army. But then,
41:03
Speaker 1: of course, you know it's clear he's not getting better
41:07
Speaker 1: because you know, he's he's pushing it. At this age,
41:10
Speaker 1: he's getting old in the tooth and he's unwell, and
41:15
Speaker 1: he is forcefully retired from the military. And a little
41:23
Speaker 1: while after this he ends up with something he was
41:27
Speaker 1: fighting against for so long in all of these locations,
41:33
Speaker 1: he has dysentery, which is, of all the ways to go,
41:41
Speaker 1: it's a really, really unpleasant one. It is foul and
41:46
Speaker 1: exhausting and just just a horrific way to go. And
41:52
Speaker 1: then on the fifteenth of July eighteen sixty five, doctor
41:57
Speaker 1: James Barry passes away. But his death was not the
42:02
Speaker 1: end of his story. So there are rumors and whispers
42:06
Speaker 1: that James Barry, you know, had stated that he did
42:10
Speaker 1: not want to have an autopsy, his body was not
42:14
Speaker 1: to be autopsied, or he was to be buried in
42:18
Speaker 1: the clothes that he died in, so on and so forth.
42:21
Speaker 1: We don't have any official documents, there's no official source material.
42:27
Speaker 1: There's nothing to you know, a firmer confirm or to
42:31
Speaker 1: say that's how it was. It's just one of those,
42:34
Speaker 1: you know, little pieces of information that has stuck regardless
42:38
Speaker 1: of whether there's anything to back it up. So after
42:42
Speaker 1: James Barry passes, his doctor comes to you know, sign
42:45
Speaker 1: the death certificate, you know, do the usual, and he
42:49
Speaker 1: shows up, signs the bit goes, yeah, that's Barry, that's fine.
42:54
Speaker 1: Off he goes. So after that's done, the next piece
42:58
Speaker 1: is the body needs to be cleaned for burial. It's
43:02
Speaker 1: just part of the whole shebang. So the charwoman comes in,
43:07
Speaker 1: cleans down the body, does her bit, and then isn't paid.
43:14
Speaker 1: So it's she's not paid either by the landlady and
43:17
Speaker 1: Barry has no relatives, so there's there's no one. So
43:22
Speaker 1: she heads up to the doctor and she goes, you
43:26
Speaker 1: need to pay me, or I'm going to tell everyone
43:30
Speaker 1: that you know this doctor James Barry was not a
43:34
Speaker 1: man but was in fact a woman. And doctor McKinnon
43:38
Speaker 1: is like, right, okay, wherever go away and the charwoman
43:43
Speaker 1: still isn't paid. And so after this McKinnon receives a
43:49
Speaker 1: letter from the General Register's Office, the gro so they're like, hey,
43:58
Speaker 1: by the way, this woman came forward and said that
44:03
Speaker 1: Barry is was a woman. What say you, doctor McKinnon.
44:09
Speaker 1: And McKinnon's response, I'm going to paraphrase away bit here,
44:12
Speaker 1: but basically he said that he had known Barry you
44:15
Speaker 1: know for many many years from his time in the
44:17
Speaker 1: West Indies in England, that he was his attending physician
44:21
Speaker 1: in his you know, later part of his life through
44:22
Speaker 1: his bronchiitis and the dysentery which would end his life.
44:27
Speaker 1: He then goes on to say that at no point
44:30
Speaker 1: during this had he ever suspected that Barry was, you know,
44:35
Speaker 1: a woman, a biological female, however you want to put it. No,
44:40
Speaker 1: not an England, not an ocean, and that this charwoman
44:43
Speaker 1: came up, had asked him for money, that the landlady
44:47
Speaker 1: had refused her, and that she was going to go forth.
44:50
Speaker 1: And he was like, you know, I said that Barry
44:53
Speaker 1: wasn't a woman, and the charwoman who is just like
44:57
Speaker 1: so Sassey had said, what kind of some doctor you are?
45:02
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want you looking after me if you can't
45:05
Speaker 1: tell the difference between a man and a woman, which
45:08
Speaker 1: is sassy. And you kind of have to give her that,
45:12
Speaker 1: you know, like, may we talk about it? Because when
45:16
Speaker 1: she had in, you know, washed down the body, the
45:19
Speaker 1: genitalia was not what was expected. There was vulva or vagina,
45:25
Speaker 1: and no penis, no testes, none of that. So that's
45:30
Speaker 1: the issue there. What I found quite interesting is there's
45:35
Speaker 1: no mention of breasts. So this woman saw the entire body.
45:41
Speaker 1: She mentions the stretch marks on Barry's stomach, which could
45:47
Speaker 1: be as some think, somethink it's the result of being
45:52
Speaker 1: pregnant at some point in their life. But there's no
45:56
Speaker 1: real evidence of this. And there's a bunch of reasons
45:58
Speaker 1: why people get stretch marks when they grow or gain weight,
46:02
Speaker 1: or have an illness like dysentery, Like, there's a bunch
46:05
Speaker 1: of reasons why someone would have stretch marks on their
46:08
Speaker 1: stomach if they went through any period of malnutrition, Like
46:12
Speaker 1: your stomach can swell and you know that that happens.
46:18
Speaker 1: But anyway, McKinnon's effective response at the end was, well,
46:25
Speaker 1: it didn't really matter to me whether Barry was a
46:28
Speaker 1: he or she, but I assumed that they were a hermaphrodite.
46:33
Speaker 1: Hemaphrodite is the term that McKinnon uses. We would say
46:37
Speaker 1: intersects now, So that was the doctor's opinion. So after
46:43
Speaker 1: this he's like whatever, and someone quite possibly the charwoman,
46:49
Speaker 1: goes to the papers and it becomes a massive, massive scandal.
46:56
Speaker 1: So people just go nuts for it. You've got Charles
46:59
Speaker 1: Dickens right in stories about it. Fuck you, Charles Dickens.
47:04
Speaker 1: I do have an innate hatred for that snake of
47:08
Speaker 1: a man. But yet it becomes a massive, massive issue,
47:13
Speaker 1: to the point where the army is so embarrassed about
47:18
Speaker 1: the whole ordeal that it forces all documents and all
47:23
Speaker 1: of Barrie's records to be sealed for one hundred years.
47:29
Speaker 1: And it would have been so incredibly easy for, you know,
47:33
Speaker 1: the history of the life of doctor James Barrie to
47:37
Speaker 1: fade into obscurity. But you know, once the records are sealed,
47:43
Speaker 1: you have one person writing about it and then another
47:45
Speaker 1: person reading about it. And then as we evolve now
47:49
Speaker 1: as culture and society and we become more understanding to
47:53
Speaker 1: an extent of people, and you know, gender identities and
47:58
Speaker 1: everything like that, and of course you know the waves
48:02
Speaker 1: of feminism. Doctor James Barry, no matter how you look
48:07
Speaker 1: at them as a person, they were an incredibly important figure.
48:11
Speaker 1: They were a trailblazer. They saved countless lives because they
48:18
Speaker 1: were willing to go above and beyond, regardless of what
48:21
Speaker 1: their gender identity was. So at the beginning of the episode,
48:25
Speaker 1: I did mention the you know, the three sort of
48:28
Speaker 1: trains of thought, trains of thought, trains of thought. True. True,
48:33
Speaker 1: that seems incorrect to me somehow, but yet also feels
48:37
Speaker 1: a little bit correct. It is very humid here and
48:40
Speaker 1: I couldn't put my fan on I have this old
48:43
Speaker 1: fan from like I swear, from the nineteen eighties, but
48:46
Speaker 1: I can't put it on because it makes too much
48:47
Speaker 1: noise and the microphone won't pick it up. So yeah,
48:51
Speaker 1: uh oh, the saying choe shoe train of thought, it
48:55
Speaker 1: is a train of thought. That's not what I meant. Though,
48:59
Speaker 1: I didn't mean a tree. I thought, No, what is
49:02
Speaker 1: wrong with me? No? I meant there were three sort
49:05
Speaker 1: of main ideas as to the gender identity of doctor
49:10
Speaker 1: James Barry and who slash what they represent. Oh and
49:16
Speaker 1: before I add anything else, I want to say, you'll
49:19
Speaker 1: see a lot of the times that doctor James Barry
49:22
Speaker 1: has James Miranda whatever Barry Stuart I think is, and
49:27
Speaker 1: that they were never referred to that in their lifetime.
49:30
Speaker 1: There was no documentation, there was nothing that people just
49:33
Speaker 1: added that in later. I think more of a of
49:36
Speaker 1: a way to kind of slide in that James Barry
49:38
Speaker 1: was really a woman. But James Barry either three options. One,
49:47
Speaker 1: they were a woman disguised as a man. In order
49:52
Speaker 1: to have the career that they wanted, right, they had
49:55
Speaker 1: to fit against prejudice because it was illegal for them
49:59
Speaker 1: to do what they want to do. Option one feminist icon.
50:05
Speaker 1: Option two transgender person just living their best life, trans
50:10
Speaker 1: man just doing what they want to do, or option
50:16
Speaker 1: three James Barry was intersex and just shows their own
50:24
Speaker 1: identity because you know, they had to pick one of
50:28
Speaker 1: the binary and even though they were assigned female at birth,
50:32
Speaker 1: they didn't feel that way. And being intersex, even though
50:37
Speaker 1: that's his own gender identity that a lot of people
50:40
Speaker 1: can't seem to grasp effectively. I mean, you're all the
50:43
Speaker 1: time they have to choose one way or the other. So, yeah,
50:49
Speaker 1: with what did we learned today? James Barry was such
50:53
Speaker 1: an important figure and we will never know the answer.
50:58
Speaker 1: We can never have that unless we go back and
51:02
Speaker 1: time travel and ask them themselves, and even then they
51:06
Speaker 1: might not want to fucking tell us because even though
51:11
Speaker 1: they are so important, they're such an amazing figure in history,
51:17
Speaker 1: like for so many reasons out with their gender identity,
51:22
Speaker 1: you know, and it's none of our fucking business, which
51:27
Speaker 1: is I say this as a historian, like none of
51:30
Speaker 1: our business. But it does give people someone to look
51:35
Speaker 1: up to. So whether you see you know James Barry
51:38
Speaker 1: as a feminist icon, as a transman making waves and
51:45
Speaker 1: doing great or an intersex person choosing their own way.
51:51
Speaker 1: They were a fantastic person, regardless of their temper because
51:56
Speaker 1: they saved so many people, and that it's kind of
52:01
Speaker 1: what matters. And with that, I shall move on to
52:04
Speaker 1: recommendation time. So reading, I am going to suggest The
52:11
Speaker 1: Companion by Ee Ottoman. It's a historical romance. It's set
52:16
Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties, but you know there's a just
52:20
Speaker 1: just give it a go. Give it a go for listening.
52:26
Speaker 1: I've been re listening to Come to Daddy with Rubin Ka.
52:30
Speaker 1: It's so hilarious. We should absolutely give it a go
52:33
Speaker 1: and for watching. Now. Secret Invasion is coming out on
52:40
Speaker 1: Disney Plus and I am an absolute nerd, so I
52:44
Speaker 1: will absolutely be watching that. I'm recommending it. I haven't
52:48
Speaker 1: even seen it yet, so just just go watch it
52:52
Speaker 1: because I need I'll be able to talk to you
52:54
Speaker 1: about it. Go now. So if you like this episode
52:58
Speaker 1: or my retelling of the life of doctor James Barrie,
53:01
Speaker 1: feel free to rate and review five stars. I would
53:04
Speaker 1: like love that, so if you could do that, that
53:07
Speaker 1: would be amusing. And you can follow me on all
53:10
Speaker 1: my socials. I'm on TikTok, I'm on Instagram, I'm on
53:13
Speaker 1: Twitter sometimes ranting about things. Also on Facebook, just not
53:18
Speaker 1: as much as I probably should be, but I'm there.
53:21
Speaker 1: But if you don't follow me in the socials, you
53:23
Speaker 1: should and annoy me because I love it. I love it.
53:26
Speaker 1: We don't like say mean things, just say lovely things. Compliments.
53:31
Speaker 1: I want your compliments. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I love
53:37
Speaker 1: you so much and I am going to go now
53:39
Speaker 1: because it is very hot and I need to just
53:42
Speaker 1: eat ice straight from the fraser. I think that's my
53:46
Speaker 1: new plan. And with that, I shall bid you good night.
53:50
Speaker 1: Adios or what is there, my friends? A bubbe