Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #187 Standardised Education with Todd Rose

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#187 Standardised Education with Todd Rose · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, the secret really came down to fit every one
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  Speaker 2: of us. Our individuality matters.
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  Speaker 3: And whether or not you can succeed or not is.
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  Speaker 2: As much about finding that fit between who you are
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  Speaker 2: and the environment.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 4: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson and as usual I'm
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  Speaker 4: joined by my co host, missus Happy Families, my wife
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  Speaker 4: Kylie where the parents of six girls. I've written six
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  Speaker 4: books about raising happy families, and today's podcast and absolutely
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  Speaker 4: must listen if you've got kids at school who are
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  Speaker 4: struggling around standardization and education, which is pretty much all
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  Speaker 4: of them.
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  Speaker 5: Todd Rose is our guest on the podcast today. Todd
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  Speaker 5: is the co founder and president of Populace, which is
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  Speaker 5: a think tank dedicated to transforming how we learn, work,
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  Speaker 5: and live basically so we can all live a fulfilling
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  Speaker 5: life in a thriving society.
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  Speaker 4: Until recently, Todd was also a professor at the Harvard
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  Speaker 4: Graduate School of Education. He's the author of two best
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  Speaker 4: selling books, Dark Horse and The End of Average. Both
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  Speaker 4: of those books over the last few years have been
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  Speaker 4: at the top of my favorite books lists. In twenty eighteen,
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  Speaker 4: The End of Average just blew my mind, and in
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  Speaker 4: twenty nineteen I said dark Horse was my book of
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  Speaker 4: the year. He's got a fantastic story about his journey
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  Speaker 4: to becoming a professor at one of the world's most
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  Speaker 4: prestigious universities.
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  Speaker 5: Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast, Todd, and thanks for
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  Speaker 5: joining us. I have to admit I am I'm really
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  Speaker 5: excited about today's interview. I have picked up dark Horse
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  Speaker 5: because you told me how good it was, and I've
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  Speaker 5: been reading it and I'm really really getting a lot
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  Speaker 5: out of what I'm reading. But this is actually the
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  Speaker 5: first time I've ever done an interview, and I'm a
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  Speaker 5: little bit nervous about how it's going to go.
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  Speaker 6: So welcome Todd. It's great to have you along.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited.
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  Speaker 4: So, Todd, I a couple of years ago came across
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  Speaker 4: your book The End of Average when I read it
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  Speaker 4: and I heard about it from a fellow academic called
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  Speaker 4: Todd Kashton on his annual book review. He said, this
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  Speaker 4: was one of the best books I read all year,
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  Speaker 4: and for me. It was one of the best books
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  Speaker 4: that I'd read all year. And then I came across
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  Speaker 4: your book Dark Horse, which you've only released much more recently,
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  Speaker 4: and I just thought, this is something that every person
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  Speaker 4: needs to know. Everyone needs to read this book, everyone
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  Speaker 4: needs to understand it. The information in here is so valuable,
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  Speaker 4: and I want to talk about it with Kylie and you.
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  Speaker 4: But before we do that, can you just tell us
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  Speaker 4: a bit about your story, because you've got this really
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  Speaker 4: compelling story that I think would give any parent who's
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  Speaker 4: worried about their child's future success just that little bit
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  Speaker 4: of reassurance and comfort that no matter how bad it is,
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  Speaker 4: it could still be Okay.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, you know.
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  Speaker 2: Today I run a think take and I have, you know,
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  Speaker 2: another business, and I used to be a Harvard professor.
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  Speaker 2: But but before that, I was also a high school dropout.
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  Speaker 2: And it actually, it's funny, it actually is kind of
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  Speaker 2: worse than that, right, Like I actually I say drop out,
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  Speaker 2: they actually kicked me out, but I feel like it's
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  Speaker 2: sounds better.
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  Speaker 3: It was like mutually agreed upon.
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  Speaker 2: But I ended up filling out with a zero point
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  Speaker 2: nine GPA, So I don't know how the grades work
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  Speaker 2: in Australia. But this is pretty bad. This is like
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  Speaker 2: a D minus F average right across all things.
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  Speaker 5: And so I think you and Justin have something in common.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I finished high school, but the grade
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  Speaker 4: that they gave me was you scored on the bottom
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  Speaker 4: fifteen percent of the state.
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  Speaker 6: Good luck with the rest of your life.
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  Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. And so it was.
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  Speaker 2: It was the beginning of my senior year and I
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  Speaker 2: suddenly found myself, you know, having to go to work.
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  Speaker 2: But really, just a couple months later, my girlfriend she
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  Speaker 2: was pregnant. Now I have to say flash forward still
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  Speaker 2: my wife today twenty five years later, and.
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  Speaker 3: So that was that was actually the best mistake.
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  Speaker 2: But but you know, we had two kids within the
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  Speaker 2: span of I was twenty one and found I was
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  Speaker 2: working minimum wage jobs and we actually ended up on
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  Speaker 2: welfare and it.
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  Speaker 3: Just wasn't working. And so the short version is.
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  Speaker 2: My dad told me, hey, look, there are plenty of
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  Speaker 2: great jobs that he felt like I could be really
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  Speaker 2: I could excel at, but I couldn't get there from
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  Speaker 2: where I was, And weirdly I ended up because of
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  Speaker 2: his example, I ended up going to college. I took
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  Speaker 2: my GED which is like the equivalent of the high
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  Speaker 2: school diploma in the States, and enrolled in this open
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  Speaker 2: enrollment commuter school called Weaper State University, was just right
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  Speaker 2: up the road from where I lived, and slowly started
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  Speaker 2: to chip away at this out of just sheer like
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  Speaker 2: couldn't go back to what it was. And I learned
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  Speaker 2: a lot about myself along the way, and I'm happy
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  Speaker 2: to give more examples of that. But weirdly, I ended
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  Speaker 2: up graduating as the honor student of the year with
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  Speaker 2: a three point nine to seven GPAs and premad and
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  Speaker 2: got into Harvard for my doctorate.
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  Speaker 4: I'd wear twins. I mean, this is so much like
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  Speaker 4: my story. You know, I barely scraped through high school.
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  Speaker 4: I'm working at some minimage jobs, and now I get
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  Speaker 4: this radio career. But then I go back to school
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  Speaker 4: in my late twenties with the.
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  Speaker 5: Belief at that point that you were actually a high
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  Speaker 5: school dropout.
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  Speaker 6: And had no capacity to didn't belong there.
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  Speaker 4: But ended up doing a psychology degree and graduated with
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  Speaker 4: first class honors and went on to do a doctorate
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  Speaker 4: in psychology. I'm hearing that maybe this way, I like
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  Speaker 4: books so much so you end up at Harvard and
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  Speaker 4: then I mean, the career just keeps on going. You
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  Speaker 4: went up as a professor at Harvard University, one of
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  Speaker 4: the most prestigious universities in the world, high school drop out,
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  Speaker 4: a couple of kids, and all of a sudden, how
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  Speaker 4: does that happen?
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  Speaker 3: It's funny.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of people like I was just trying to
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  Speaker 2: get through, right, I was trying to survive, and it
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  Speaker 2: was only I remember the first press interview I ever
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  Speaker 2: did when I got into Harvard, and it was like
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  Speaker 2: the local newspaper, and they were like, wait, what, like
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  Speaker 2: how And what I realized is and they said, oh,
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  Speaker 2: you must have just buckled down and started working harder.
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  Speaker 2: And when I thought about it, I realized that really
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  Speaker 2: wasn't true. Like I really did work hard. I mean
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  Speaker 2: the you know, there were some gaps in that where
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  Speaker 2: I've kind of given up. But like, what I realized
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  Speaker 2: is the secret really came down to fit every one
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  Speaker 2: of us. Our individuality matters, and whether or not you
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  Speaker 2: can succeed or not is as much about finding that
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  Speaker 2: fit between who you are and the environment. And so
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  Speaker 2: even in the context of a reasonably standardized college experience,
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  Speaker 2: there was enough wiggle room where I was able to
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  Speaker 2: make some pretty meaningful choices. Some of them were like
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  Speaker 2: really counterintuitive, to the point where the university was like,
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  Speaker 2: I don't think you're supposed to do this, and like
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  Speaker 2: literally made me sign a paper saying like I knew
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  Speaker 2: what I was doing, but it was about fit over
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  Speaker 2: like standardized sequences. And the more I learned about that
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  Speaker 2: and realized, as long as I was in my element
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  Speaker 2: and I had created that good fit, I was as
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  Speaker 2: good as anybody. And when I got outside of that fit,
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  Speaker 2: it was it was a slog. And so that carried
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  Speaker 2: with me all the way into my academic research and
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  Speaker 2: even the work I do.
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  Speaker 4: Now this is the Happy Families Podcast. We'll continue our
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  Speaker 4: discussion with Todd in just a Mine for.
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  Speaker 3: A happier family. Try a Happy Families membership, because a
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  Speaker 3: happy family doesn't just happen.
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  Speaker 4: Details at happy families dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 5: This is the Happy Families Podcast, and today we're talking
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  Speaker 5: to Todd Rose, a Harvard professor, author and founder of
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  Speaker 5: the think tank Populace. In your book The End of Average,
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  Speaker 5: you unpack the idea of standardization in schools, and one
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  Speaker 5: of the points you make is that standardization actually has
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  Speaker 5: its place. Can you tell us a bit more about that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean, you know, societies don't function if
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  Speaker 2: it's a free for all. And like, you know, there's
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  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that as human beings we have
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  Speaker 2: in common, and sometimes even when it's not the best,
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  Speaker 2: you end up finding the best possible way on average
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  Speaker 2: to do something in the name of efficiency. And so
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  Speaker 2: even though I'm I believe we're quite a bit down
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  Speaker 2: the road from needing a lot of that, I do
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  Speaker 2: appreciate that. Like when standardization really became a thing, you know,
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  Speaker 2: about one hundred years ago, we were living across the
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  Speaker 2: world in a very different time and you know, so
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  Speaker 2: the role for it, as I see it is twofold.
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  Speaker 2: So one anything outside of human beings, I mean, God
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  Speaker 2: bless you, I go crazy, right, Like I want my
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  Speaker 2: tile and all to be like standardized with every pill, right, Like,
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  Speaker 2: there's things that I really do want to be true
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  Speaker 2: about standardized processes.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so when you're making a cay, you need to
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  Speaker 4: be standardized, right, Like you need to know that they're
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  Speaker 4: nuts and bolts, they're standardized, and we need to have
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  Speaker 4: a standardized system so that things function effectively. That's that's
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  Speaker 4: critically important.
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  Speaker 2: But when you when it comes to human beings and
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  Speaker 2: then particularly how you think about who they are, what
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  Speaker 2: they're capable of. That's where it breaks down. That's where
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  Speaker 2: whatever upside there is to it is swapped by the
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  Speaker 2: profound downside in terms of what standardization does to human
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  Speaker 2: beings with respect to well, it's soul crushing right in
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  Speaker 2: terms of not really being able to realize your full potential.
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  Speaker 2: But the truth is is that as communities and as
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  Speaker 2: a global society like we lose out on their uniqueness
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  Speaker 2: and the things that they have to contribute.
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  Speaker 3: So the truth is where we have to get is
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  Speaker 3: a nice balance when.
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  Speaker 4: It comes to raising our children and putting them into
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  Speaker 4: a standardized educational system, the same system that frankly you
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  Speaker 4: and I struggled in, and so many tens of thousands,
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  Speaker 4: if not hundreds of thousands of kids today are struggling in.
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  Speaker 4: We've got a standardized system with standardized high stakes testing,
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  Speaker 4: and we've got a standardized process to get into university
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  Speaker 4: and a standardized career path. I love what you said
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  Speaker 4: in in Dark Horse. You basically said, from the time
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  Speaker 4: our children are born until the time they retire, their
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  Speaker 4: life is standardized.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's and the thing is is that it Like
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  Speaker 2: I said, it's bad for individuals, it's bad for society.
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  Speaker 3: And you think about education, like.
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  Speaker 2: We literally have kids all over the world, like depending
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  Speaker 2: on where you're at, Like if you're in the same country,
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  Speaker 2: you are learning basically the same things about the same time,
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  Speaker 2: in the same pace, same sequence, right, And even even
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  Speaker 2: like in the States, education is the last place that
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  Speaker 2: still incentivizes designing on average.
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  Speaker 3: So we call it like developmentally appropriate. So you take
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  Speaker 3: like a textbook and it's like say sixth grade silence
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  Speaker 3: or something, and it's like the reading level is what
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  Speaker 3: does the average sixth grader know? Right? What can they read? Well,
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  Speaker 3: there isn't an average sixth grader, right, And so especially
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  Speaker 3: with our technologies, now you don't have to do it right.
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  Speaker 3: It is dropped dead simple to have incredibly flexible what
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  Speaker 3: we would call universally designed environments that are far more inclusive.
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  Speaker 2: Right, you don't have to have the same fixed sequence.
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  Speaker 2: Kids can move at their own pace and it doesn't
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  Speaker 2: have to be chaos. We can see over and over
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  Speaker 2: again that you can actually get more efficient, more effective
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  Speaker 2: learning environments with a little bit more flexibility and personalization.
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  Speaker 5: So as a mum, of six children who literally can
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  Speaker 5: see that there is no cookie cutter average in my
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  Speaker 5: own home, just with my six children. This idea of personalization,
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  Speaker 5: you know, kind of living intrigues me.
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  Speaker 3: Heaves.
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  Speaker 5: I've just I've loved listening to what we're talking about today.
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  Speaker 5: I'm wondering, Todd, whether or not we might be able
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  Speaker 5: to get you back in a few weeks time to
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  Speaker 5: really kind of, I guess, unpack this idea for parents
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  Speaker 5: and help them to, you know, kind of be able
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  Speaker 5: to internalize these messages so that they can help their
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  Speaker 5: children navigate this this world that we live in obstandardization.
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  Speaker 5: How do we personalize it for them?
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  Speaker 3: That sounds great? Come me in awesome.
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  Speaker 4: So the book is called Dark Horse Achieving Success through Fulfillment,
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  Speaker 4: and it takes parents through this idea that we've got
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  Speaker 4: a standardized system that may not be working for every child,
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  Speaker 4: and it's changed the way I view so much.
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  Speaker 6: Todd. Awesome to talk to your can't wait to do
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  Speaker 6: it again.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it's just been so good chatting with Todd Rose
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  Speaker 4: on today's Happy Families podcast. I'm really looking forward to
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  Speaker 4: having Todd back on the podcast in the next few weeks.
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  Speaker 6: I'm doctor Justin Coulson.
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  Speaker 4: If you would like more info about how we can
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  Speaker 4: make your family happier, you can get all the info
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  Speaker 4: that you need at happy families dot com dot au
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: where we have our Happy Families memberships Families.
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  Speaker 6: Getting bigger and happier every day.
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  Speaker 4: Or you can find more info at my Facebook page,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: doctor Justin Coulson's Happy Families. If you do enjoy the
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: podcast as well, we'd love for you to leave a
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  Speaker 4: rating and review.
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  Speaker 6: You can do that at Apple Podcasts or wherever.
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  Speaker 4: You're listening because it helps people to find the podcasts
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  Speaker 4: and have happier families.
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  Speaker 6: Thanks to Justin rule On from Bridge Media for making
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  Speaker 6: this sound great. Our producer and our executive producer is
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  Speaker 6: Craig Bruce.
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  Speaker 4: Once again, all the info you need to make your
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  Speaker 4: family happier at happy Families dot com dot Au
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  Speaker 2: M HM