Latest / Blocked and Reported / Episode 217: Launching A Smear Campaign Against A Respected Black Librarian, For Social Justice

Transcript

Episode 217: Launching A Smear Campaign Against A Respected Black Librarian, For Social Justice · Blocked and Reported

0:01
Thank you.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: jesse so do you want to make the announcement yeah i thought i thought this is
0:14
SPEAKER_00: something you you were gonna say but you're you're coming out as straight right
0:16
SPEAKER_02: what do you mean different announcement yes i am coming out as heterosexual i am
0:21
SPEAKER_02: destroying my entire life i like dick actually let's leave that leave that no the
0:27
SPEAKER_00: actual announcement i want to rush forward so that we can leave it you like dick
0:30
SPEAKER_00: and not discuss it further
0:32
SPEAKER_02: This is one of these shows where I've worked my ass off for the actual segment that we're doing.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: And we're starting it out in this very unprofessional way.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: And we're going to get, I think, a lot of new listeners from one specific community.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: This will make more sense when you actually hear the segment.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: And they're going to be so turned off by the first 30 seconds of the show.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be like our Unitarian episode,
0:54
SPEAKER_02: which was very serious reporting that we started out with the show about adult baby
0:59
SPEAKER_02: diaper lovers.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: We got to plan this better.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: I know,
1:02
SPEAKER_00: but don't you think it's sort of dishonest to make them think this show is anything
1:06
SPEAKER_00: but you saying things like,
1:07
SPEAKER_00: I like dick and me getting chuckled uncomfortably?
1:10
SPEAKER_02: I like it raw.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: I like it cooked.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: You just cooked dick.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, no, the announcement is just spotted, spotted dick.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Everyone who's listening for the first time, usually our show is very highbrow.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: The actual announcement is we have some live show dates up on our website.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to pin them to the side.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh, go to block to important.org.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: I'll just read them out real quick.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: Pin them to the side.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
1:34
SPEAKER_00: It's a sex thing.
1:35
SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't get it.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to put them on the side thing.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: It's a daisy chain.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: We're going to be in Philadelphia July 19th through 21st.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: July 19th and 20th, we're speaking at the FIRE Student Network Conference.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: The bad news is if you're just a normal taxpayer, you can't come.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: The good news is if you're a student,
1:53
SPEAKER_00: a graduate student or an undergraduate student,
1:55
SPEAKER_00: not only can you come,
1:58
SPEAKER_00: but FIRE will reimburse you for up to $500 of travel costs.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: That is incredible.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank the Koch brothers.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank... Who else wants them?
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Koch.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: Like the drug.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Coca-Cola.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: For giving us the energy.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: Big Koch.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: So even if you're an incoming undergrad or graduate student, you're still...
2:17
SPEAKER_00: I didn't have enough.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: What's the word I'm looking for?
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Qualified.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: You can apply.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Applicate.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: You can applicate.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: You're eligible.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: That's the word I was looking for.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: July 21st.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: Punchline Philly.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: 3 p.m.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: Open to everybody.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Buy a ticket.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Ticket links on our website.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: July 24th.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Village Underground.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: 8 p.m.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: July 25th.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: That's in New York.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: Then July 25th.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Boston.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing a horrible job with this.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: And then July 25th.
2:39
SPEAKER_00: Boston.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: My hometown.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Laugh Boston.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: 8 p.m.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're doing it again.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Jesse has convinced me to leave my homes, which I don't want to do.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: I've got to find a dog sitter for Moose.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to miss him.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: There's no better way to stay.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: The whole point of a live event is to be more relatable.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: So what you want to do is I can't believe you forced me to leave my home.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: to come to this event you paid for they are both tiny homes they are both very
3:07
SPEAKER_01: small these are not impressive houses I only have two I have two homes and two
3:10
SPEAKER_00: bathrooms total are you serious both of your homes have one bathroom each one yeah
3:16
SPEAKER_02: just one bathroom one bedroom one bathroom it's pathetic
3:20
SPEAKER_00: I just want to address one little thing.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: I felt bad because a lot of people in the comments are like, why aren't you coming to Missoula?
3:28
SPEAKER_00: Because nobody would show up.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: They're making up these city names that can't possibly be real.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Minneapolis?
3:36
SPEAKER_00: That's not a place.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've never heard of it.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: No, joking aside, first of all, I really like live shows.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: I think you're a little bit more of a wallflower.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: Is that fair to say?
3:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
3:46
SPEAKER_02: it's weird because I am both better at the live shows than you and yet more
3:50
SPEAKER_02: hesitant to actually be on stage.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: All right.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll resolve that later.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: The point is we would love to be able to do them in smaller cities, but we're not a huge podcast.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: And also, the reason we do this East Coast thing is because we fly Katie across.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: You drug up Katie.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: You roll
4:08
SPEAKER_00: her into a crate put her in the bottom of a boeing 737 max she lands and then we
4:12
SPEAKER_00: can knock out not knock out we put a huge amount of effort in every show knock out
4:17
SPEAKER_00: like four shows in five days and and each of these shows does not make a lot of
4:20
SPEAKER_00: money and if we had to fly to minneapolis for 70 eskimos or whatever you people
4:27
SPEAKER_02: have out there that is a very politically incorrect term jesse it's inuit inuit
4:32
SPEAKER_00: inuit um i would love to be able to do smaller cities but if you want that to
4:35
SPEAKER_00: happen two options one tell quit your job and devote yourself full-time to
4:40
SPEAKER_00: spreading the gospel of bar pod two the one exception to all this is that
4:44
SPEAKER_00: universities and um you know non-profits like the fire thing we're doing they can
4:50
SPEAKER_00: pay a little bit more and you're not relying on ticket sales so if you want to get
4:53
SPEAKER_00: a school we're always open to doing university stuff although um
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's gone really well in the past.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Cornell did not go so well.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, all university stuff.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: That was Dartmouth.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: Dartmouth.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: What did I say?
5:05
SPEAKER_02: You said Cornell.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: We need a correction there.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: I'd like to correct what I just said.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: It was Dartmouth, not Cornell.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Cornell, but Cornell's never invited us, which is just as bad as... We have been canceled by both places.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
5:16
SPEAKER_00: we're very much looking forward to the live shows,
5:18
SPEAKER_00: but it is extremely resource intensive to do them.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's hard for us to get to Minneapolis.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is hard.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: It's like I am looking forward to them.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm looking forward to them being over because I enjoy it in the moment.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: But the like leading up to it, I will lose sleep over this for months.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: We're so different about this.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: They're fun.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: It's not like the being on stage.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: I have my beta blockers.
5:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm fine being on stage.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: It's the prep of the show because our live shows are very... They're a lot of fucking work.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: And we're trying to do this...
5:52
SPEAKER_02: While we're also producing seven episodes at least a month of this show.
5:57
SPEAKER_02: And there's only three of us now.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: The two of us and Jessica the 80s baby.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: It's quite a lot and it's stressful.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Two and a half because she doesn't work full time.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: And she might not be real.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: We haven't established she's real.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: We have not met her or spoken to her.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: She could be a really talented AI.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: So I'm already complaining about it to Jana.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure it'll be great.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: Please come.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm stressed.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's going to be great.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to meeting more listeners this summer slash seeing some I have already met.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: Katie, you've got a story for us today that's going to bring in the librarian community.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Is that it?
6:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
6:26
SPEAKER_02: We are tapping a new demographic today, the librarian community.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: We're tapping some librarians.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: Been there.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we've dipped a toe into library world before, but I'm excited for that.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: This is apparently an in-depth investigation.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's the word.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: You investigated.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: I did.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: You put on your little hat.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: My glasses.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Did Moose wear a little private eye hat?
6:47
SPEAKER_00: He did, yes.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: He wagged.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: That's so cute.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: Send me a photo.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: Before we get to that,
6:51
SPEAKER_00: though,
6:51
SPEAKER_00: I'd like to discuss basically this article in the Free Press that is behind a paywall.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: So I guess not everyone will be able to read it.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Headline, How Vice Went From a $6 Billion Media Empire to Bankruptcy.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Sub-headline, It Was Hubris.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: It was the mismanagement of huge amounts of money.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: Most of all, it was a betrayal of everything that readers loved, writes ex-staffer Michael Moynihan.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: And the thing that readers loved,
7:16
SPEAKER_02: I imagine,
7:17
SPEAKER_02: was essays about doing cocaine off of strippers' butts,
7:21
SPEAKER_02: things like that.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's almost.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: It's more like I joined the Taliban and introduced them to crack cocaine.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I learned about myself.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: And here's an eight-part video series.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Here's what I learned flying into the World Trade Center by vice reporter Seamus McNeil.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: What I learned planning and executing 9-11 while doing crack cocaine.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Everyone should read this article by Moynihan.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: But I want to frame it a little bit.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's remind everyone.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: Katie, you remind everyone.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: What is the institutional bar pod stance on media company collapses and quote
7:56
SPEAKER_00: unquote wokeness and how they're related?
7:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so a lot of people, you will see this very frequently on Twitter.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: It's a trope now.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: Go woke, go broke is the phrase.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: And it does rhyme, and usually things that rhyme are true.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: He who smelt it did dealt it.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: That was a good one, Jesse.
8:16
SPEAKER_02: So I think that we have tried to inject some nuance into that particular phrase.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: And there are lots of structural issues,
8:25
SPEAKER_02: systemic,
8:25
SPEAKER_02: if you will,
8:26
SPEAKER_02: issues affecting the media industry in every fucking sector.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Like white supremacy?
8:30
SPEAKER_02: No, not that.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: In every sector of the industry.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: And go woke,
8:34
SPEAKER_02: go broke,
8:35
SPEAKER_02: I think can be a part of it,
8:36
SPEAKER_02: especially if you are alienating your core audience,
8:39
SPEAKER_02: as we have seen over and over again at different outlets.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: But it's also
8:43
SPEAKER_02: So there's also lots of shit going on.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of it has to do with advertising models.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: And these things have been in decline for many years and did not arise with the
8:51
SPEAKER_02: great awokening,
8:52
SPEAKER_02: did not entirely arise with the great awokening.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
8:55
SPEAKER_00: look,
8:56
SPEAKER_00: this is a whole other conversation,
8:57
SPEAKER_00: but we're basically...
8:58
SPEAKER_00: It's been two decades or so since most outlets had any reliable way to make money
9:03
SPEAKER_00: or most outlets that aren't the New York Times or the Atlantic.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And even then it can get shaky.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of outlets...
9:10
SPEAKER_02: digital outlets who like were never making money.
9:13
SPEAKER_02: They got infusions of cash from venture capitalists who for some reason thought
9:16
SPEAKER_02: that BuzzFeed would be a good investment.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Like BuzzFeed quizzes are going to fucking make you rich.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: And for some people, they did make them rich.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: But these outlets were propped up by infusions of cash.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: And at some point, the cash ran out.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, the people who got rich were often the ones who exited before things fell apart.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: I actually finally read Ben Smith's book on traffic, The Chase for Traffic.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: It was very interesting.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: I recommend it.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, go woke, go broke is an oversimplification.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: That said...
9:44
SPEAKER_00: They're a little bit related,
9:46
SPEAKER_00: and watching media companies frantically try to scramble for something or anything
9:51
SPEAKER_00: to allow them to latch onto the social justice conversation as they get pulled
9:56
SPEAKER_00: under the financial waves is simultaneously hilarious and horrifying.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: I lean closer to hilarious.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: It's deeply funny when you just see the headlines that came out of an outlet like Vice,
10:08
SPEAKER_02: which was so iconoclastic and so edgy.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden,
10:13
SPEAKER_02: it seems like almost overnight has turned into the sort of outlet that scolds
10:17
SPEAKER_02: people for using the R slur.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so I haven't read Moynihan's piece.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: What did he say happened at Vice?
10:23
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I just realized that Moynihan was in my dream last night.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh shit, what happened?
10:28
SPEAKER_02: We went on a date, but not a sexual one.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: Katie likes Moynihan.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: It was a podcasting date.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: Ben Dreyfuss was in it too.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they were in it on a date.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Did they fuck?
10:39
SPEAKER_02: It's possible.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, this was a platonic date?
10:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was platonic.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: I had a dream the other night.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: This is dream corner with Katie and Jesse.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: I was invited to work for Facebook and
10:51
SPEAKER_00: Even though I didn't want to and didn't need to, it was like a good enough offer.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: So I had to like go into the office, but then nobody told me what to do.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: I was just sort of at this blank desk.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, at some point, am I going to get like an orientation packet?
11:04
SPEAKER_00: It was extremely boring.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: So don't go work at Facebook.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: You're having nightmares about having to get a job.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: That's what's happening.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine?
11:10
SPEAKER_00: I think it was actually a little bit of a nostalgia for Facebook.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: I had a little bit of camaraderie at New York Magazine.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: You wouldn't today.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: You'd be eating alone at the cafeteria.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: No, it's a little bit different.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Actually, there's one person there I had a jokey relationship with who has gone... Woke?
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Broke?
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Pretty far in the other direction.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: No, he went woke and then he lost all his money in a wokeness game.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: He went woke then he went broke.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Let me just read a little bit about this because the basic framing is this was a
11:39
SPEAKER_00: very successful countercultural media venture where it was a very pornified work environment,
11:45
SPEAKER_00: people saying horrible shit.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it would have been a fun place to work as a woman,
11:48
SPEAKER_00: but Moynihan captures how it collapsed financially and how it changed.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Quote,
11:53
SPEAKER_00: in a moment when Vice should have been focusing on rebuilding an audience and
11:57
SPEAKER_00: repaying its many creditors,
11:58
SPEAKER_00: it became obsessed with fixing racism.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: The sheer volume...
12:02
SPEAKER_01: That's such a funny distraction.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: You got bills to pay.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: They're knocking on your door and you're like, you know what we're going to take care of?
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Racism.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: The sheer volume of race-based initiatives made one feel like they were working at
12:14
SPEAKER_00: a progressive nonprofit.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Dot, dot, dot.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: I just got to read this whole paragraph.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: It's too good not to.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: Many of our colleagues had been laid off and profits were elusive,
12:22
SPEAKER_00: yet Vice plowed ahead with a much-touted program called Black+.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: First of all, it's such a great name.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, capital B. Apple Plus.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: First step is to capitalize Black.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: If you like Black, you will love Black Plus.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: All the things that make Black great, plus some other stuff.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: $9.99 a month.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: It's a great deal.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: Extra content.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: Vice Plata had with a much-touted program called Black Plus,
12:45
SPEAKER_00: which starting in 2021 provided,
12:47
SPEAKER_00: quote,
12:48
SPEAKER_00: Black-owned businesses with pro bono media campaigns,
12:51
SPEAKER_00: creative marketing services...
12:53
SPEAKER_00: And mentorship opportunities.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: So you joked about this like creating new content.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: They were just giving away editorial services to Black-owned businesses.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, my God.
13:02
SPEAKER_02: Mentorship opportunities.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: Are Black-owned businesses going to be mentored by like a 25-year-old non-binary white,
13:08
SPEAKER_02: of course,
13:08
SPEAKER_02: white staffer?
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Imagining some like established but somewhat struggling because of coronavirus like
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Black Barbershop in Brooklyn.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: And then they have a Wesleyan graduate who's like, do you do non-binary haircuts?
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: I could bring in more people.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Have you considered getting on TikTok?
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Continuing.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: As the newsroom headcount got even smaller,
13:28
SPEAKER_00: those fired could perhaps apply for a year-long journalism fellowship the company
13:32
SPEAKER_00: was now offering.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: That was available only to non-white journalists.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just general— Seems illegal.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just general altruism.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: I read that as autism.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I guess it's that too.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't just general altruism.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: Even typically profit-making enterprises were squeezed through an identity filter.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: A 2021 affiliate marketing program called Rec Room,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: where the company earned referral fees for click links to recommended products,
13:53
SPEAKER_00: offered to spotlight the work of independent vendors and creators from marginalized backgrounds.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Vice funded,
13:59
SPEAKER_00: quote,
13:59
SPEAKER_00: the award-winning cue,
14:01
SPEAKER_00: end quote,
14:01
SPEAKER_00: to bring us,
14:01
SPEAKER_00: quote,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: the world's first AI genderless voice.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Do not ask me if I have a dick.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: I have neither.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: What is a genderless AI voice?
14:14
SPEAKER_01: That's the voice of the person who has been on testosterone for three months.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: You're like, is it or isn't it?
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's,
14:20
SPEAKER_00: quote,
14:20
SPEAKER_00: gender spectrum collection,
14:22
SPEAKER_00: end quote,
14:22
SPEAKER_00: gave the world its first free trans and non-binary photo stock library made by the
14:26
SPEAKER_00: Vice editorial team.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: So they're literally assigning...
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Is that where you got the picture for your Atlantic article?
14:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Deep cut.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: They're literally assigning people to things that can't make money at a time when
14:39
SPEAKER_00: they're collapsing financially.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Quote, the balance sheet was full of projects that cost lots of money and made none.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: The theater of it all was perfectly captured in a 2021 ad week headline meant to
14:50
SPEAKER_00: highlight Vice's virtues.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: With its curated affiliate program, Vice prioritizes identity over profit.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: Indeed it had.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: I guess they really did have the not-profit model.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: At some point, I just hope more disgruntled staffers come out and give us details.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: This is all so crazy, even by the standards of these stories.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: I think one of my favorite parts of this article were, at one point, 155 staffers are laid off.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: This leads to an angry petition being circulated.
15:18
SPEAKER_00: Katie, it's pretty easy to imagine why staffers would be mad about this, right?
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people don't generally like being laid off.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: I like it.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: Every time I've done it, it's been fine for me.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: But other people, I think, have an issue with it.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: That's not what happened here, Katie.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
15:32
SPEAKER_00: the petition noted that while it was,
15:34
SPEAKER_00: quote,
15:34
SPEAKER_00: increasingly clear that these layoffs had to happen in service of a restructure,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: end quote,
15:39
SPEAKER_00: the problem is that two of the 155 laid off staffers were transgender.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: Wait, two out of how many?
15:45
155.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: And that was the issue?
15:48
SPEAKER_02: Was that two of them were transgender?
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Not that there were 155 layoffs, but that two of them were trans.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: I assume that Michael Moynihan signed this petition.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing he did not.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: He wrote the following.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: When a few staffers anonymously pushed back,
16:04
SPEAKER_00: with one asking if anyone was worried,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: quote,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: about the 153 other employees we lost,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: end quote,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: the pylon was swift.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Quote, frankly, these anonymous All Lives Matter comments are fucking abhorrent.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: One person responded.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: This is incredible.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: Incredible.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: One more thing I want to highlight here before broader takeaway points.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: And this is about something...
16:27
SPEAKER_00: I think you and I have both talked to people,
16:30
SPEAKER_00: multiple people,
16:31
SPEAKER_00: who have seen some of the numbers that resulted around 2020 when outlets were like,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: we got to do identity stuff.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: We got to do identity stuff.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: Generally speaking... Pathetic.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: These...
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
16:42
SPEAKER_00: the numbers are not good,
16:44
SPEAKER_00: but the problem is it's hard to get specifics because media outlets always hold
16:48
SPEAKER_00: their analytics closely.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not just for this, but for everything.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: So it was interesting to me that Moynihan got some numbers.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So Katie, actually, could you read this paragraph?
16:58
SPEAKER_02: That is classic Vice content.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: Vice.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: While on crack.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: I guess in 2022 they'd redo it as How to Suck Your Own Girl Dick.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: The year's top performing story in the trans category,
17:28
SPEAKER_02: What Happens When Your Girlfriend Finds Out You're Into Trans Women,
17:32
SPEAKER_02: managed a paltry 92,000 page views.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: In the queer category,
17:36
SPEAKER_02: The Most Traffic Peace,
17:37
SPEAKER_02: a gay black writer's lament that he was attracted to white men,
17:40
SPEAKER_02: portentously headlined Decolonizing My Desire,
17:43
SPEAKER_02: eked out 16,000 page views.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: These are wild numbers because this was all...
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
17:49
SPEAKER_00: you've talked about NPR being the worst offender here where you turn it on and
17:53
SPEAKER_00: within five minutes you hear about identity talk.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Five seconds.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Within around 2020, this is all anybody was doing.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's just such a useful example of how a few people with strong views on
18:06
SPEAKER_00: something can determine the tone of coverage.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: Nobody...
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Nobody is really asking for this stuff.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying nobody's asking for thoughtful examinations of trans issues or queer issues.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: There's obviously hit shows like Euphoria on HBO that cover some of this.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: But this sort of decolonizing my desire, who is that for?
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Who's it for?
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Who's reading that?
18:29
SPEAKER_02: It's for the staffers.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: That's who is like, that's what this is about.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: It's about pandering to the people who are somehow running the place.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not talking about the management.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about oftentimes low-level staffers who aren't even in editorial.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: We've seen this at other places, people on the tech side or in HR, whatever.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Although plenty in editorial too, to be clear.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure.
18:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm totally sure.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: But sort of commanding Slack, taking over Slack.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: I just started reading Nellie Bowles about this.
18:59
SPEAKER_02: Lots of similar shit happening at the New York Times around this same period.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: And again, like we talked about this in the context of NPR.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: Vice had an audience.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: And, like, there are other forces at work here.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: The rise of social media and,
19:16
SPEAKER_02: of course,
19:16
SPEAKER_02: the advertising model,
19:18
SPEAKER_02: websites in general getting fewer eyeballs because everybody's on Instagram or
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Twitter or whatever.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: And, yeah.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: There's so much more competition.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: So when Moynihan says it used to be standard to get a million page views,
19:29
SPEAKER_00: that was in a very different time with much less competition,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: just to be clear.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: The audience didn't flee because suddenly it was queer stuff.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I just think that contributed and wasn't a good response to it.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: For sure.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's alienating to the core audience.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: And yes, people evolve, standards change, all that bullshit.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: But you had an audience.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: And you not only stop producing the content that the audience actually likes.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: You started shaming the audience for the stuff that they like.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: Like I listened to the fifth column yesterday and Moynihan was talking,
20:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if this is in the piece,
20:05
SPEAKER_02: but he was talking about how at Vice,
20:08
SPEAKER_02: like in the headquarters,
20:09
SPEAKER_02: in the office,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: they had all of the cover art,
20:13
SPEAKER_02: like all of the covers of all of the- Yeah,
20:15
SPEAKER_01: this is like the start of the piece.
20:19
SPEAKER_02: And on the demand of young fucking staffers who probably weren't alive when a lot
20:23
SPEAKER_02: of these covers were in print,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: they took them down.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: Not like a few of them, but all of them.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: It's memory holing the shit that people actually liked because Vice used to be fucking good.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean, like very problematic for sure.
20:35
SPEAKER_02: Some of the shit I thought was absolutely appalling.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: Like some of it was so borderline, you know, like photos of women passed out that showed their faces.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: Some of the shit was just appallingly bad taste.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: But at least it was interesting.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: The other thing I thought was quite noteworthy here is that as Vice became a basket
20:54
SPEAKER_00: case organization,
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Michael Moynihan was sidelined.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: Of course he was.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And this is an immensely talented guy with an impressive track record.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: He's one of those weird guys who can sort of wax eloquently about the Velvet Revolution,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: but then he's really good on camera.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
21:11
SPEAKER_00: he's really racist and he's Irish,
21:12
SPEAKER_00: which are both strikes against him,
21:13
SPEAKER_00: but he's got a lot going for him too.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: He's just from Boston.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Boston.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a shorthand for Irish and racist.
21:19
SPEAKER_00: He was at one point hosting a show that was set to enter its second season,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: which suggested it got eyeballs.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: He was abruptly pulled.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: He wasn't diverse enough.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: That's what they said.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: There was also this quote as Vice filled.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: He should have done blackface.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: Come on, it's non-binary.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: This is our most recent Primo episode.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: As Vice filled the office with new diverse employees who all believe the exact same things,
21:39
SPEAKER_00: I was paid to do nothing much at all.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: An internal hiring handbook emphasized that while applicants' race and gender were
21:44
SPEAKER_00: of paramount concern,
21:45
SPEAKER_00: of course,
21:46
SPEAKER_00: interviewers should ask,
21:47
SPEAKER_00: quote,
21:47
SPEAKER_00: questions that help you understand whether the candidate is in sync with Vice's values,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: end quote.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Those values didn't require enumeration.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And as the HR department's emails consistently demonstrated, I was out of sync.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: So I wish I had more details here.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: But my understanding from what I've heard is that Moynihan was paid and paid well.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: I think he's mentioned some of this on the fifth column.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: He was paid for a long time to do nothing.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: Vice, the option of using Michael Moynihan, who is a very talented guy...
22:15
SPEAKER_00: or just throwing money in the trash, they chose to throw money in the trash.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And at a certain point,
22:21
SPEAKER_00: as much as I hate for even annoying journalists and production staff to get laid off,
22:25
SPEAKER_00: it's always my preference they don't get laid off.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: At a certain point, you start to feel that an organization like this basically deserves its fate, no?
22:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, they did everything wrong.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: This was inevitable.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: Whether they deserve it or not, this was inevitable.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And of course,
22:38
SPEAKER_00: at the end of the day,
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Moynihan now co-hosts a very successful podcast that is a much,
22:43
SPEAKER_00: much healthier business than Vice,
22:45
SPEAKER_00: even if it's apples to oranges a little bit.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: This is similar to how when Matt Iglesias left Vox,
22:49
SPEAKER_00: he likely started making much more money setting aside Vox equity stuff.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: Andrew Sullivan leaves New York Magazine.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: He starts making much more money.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: You...
22:58
SPEAKER_00: somehow make even more money than you did when you worked at the stranger and they
23:01
SPEAKER_02: paid you i think in literal airline peanut bags yes i was paid in stickers actually
23:05
SPEAKER_00: just little stickers what's fundamentally most ridiculous about all the media
23:10
SPEAKER_00: bullshit um i mean is is these outlets they have this blatant disregard for the
23:15
SPEAKER_00: thing they should care about most which is like nurturing staffers who can produce
23:20
SPEAKER_00: content that people find interesting
23:22
SPEAKER_00: That became a fourth or fifth or 10th place concern.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: But we're obviously talking about relatively small amounts of money in the grand scheme of things.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: But you're telling me Vice wouldn't be in better shape if they had just recognized
23:34
SPEAKER_00: the fifth column was a podcast with a rabid fan base that could make money and just
23:39
SPEAKER_00: bought the fifth column or folded it into Vice?
23:41
SPEAKER_00: But it just couldn't because in addition to all the other structural dysfunction,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: it was on this inscrutable ideological crusade that makes no fucking sense just a
23:50
SPEAKER_00: few years later.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: The whole thing was so...
23:52
SPEAKER_00: This whole thing felt like it was a fever dream, right?
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I kind of want it to come back.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm voting for Trump.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: You mean for our purposes?
23:59
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's just,
24:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
24:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:01
SPEAKER_00: maybe this would have all ended up in the same place anyway,
24:03
SPEAKER_00: but seeing these outlets just hasten their own demise with this bizarre bullshit
24:08
SPEAKER_00: was frustrating.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: Final note.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: In 2016, Disney offered vice CEO Shane Smith $3.4 billion for the company.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: Damn.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: He walked away from the deal.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Whoops.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: Wait, he's not still involved, is he?
24:24
SPEAKER_00: I believe he is still executive chairman.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: I guess he must have thought it was worth more.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: As Moynihan pointed out, a lot of people would have gotten very rich if he had taken that deal.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, at least Moynihan has a, uh, the second best podcast.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Um,
24:40
SPEAKER_00: all right,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Katie,
24:41
SPEAKER_00: should we do housekeeping and then get into your,
24:43
SPEAKER_00: are we doing housekeeping anymore?
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's do it.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: I guess we should.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: All right.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And then get into the library.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: All right.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: We're a podcast block to import that org.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: We're doing live shows.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: Go to our website for that for $5 a month and up.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: You can become a premium subscriber.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: You'll get, um, extra access to X. What?
24:59
SPEAKER_00: What did I say?
25:00
SPEAKER_02: Extra content.
25:00
SPEAKER_02: I just, I was interrupting you before you said a number.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Let's just say extra content.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: It's flexible.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: You get access to four episodes a month you would not hear in full otherwise by
25:11
SPEAKER_00: becoming a premium subscriber.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: It's really four now because of a very hard to explain change we made.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: We're not good at this.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: We're not good at the business side.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: The talking.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: We're such good talkers.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Our report...
25:25
SPEAKER_00: Our subreddit is blockedreported.reddit.com.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: It's a great community,
25:28
SPEAKER_00: but there's an even better community on blockedreported.org if you become a primo.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the many benefits.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: And please- There's only like one asshole in that community and we let him stay
25:36
SPEAKER_02: because everybody needs,
25:37
SPEAKER_02: like every community needs a heel,
25:39
SPEAKER_02: but it is really a very positive,
25:41
SPEAKER_02: welcoming place.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: It's inclusive.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: I just saw some bad news, which is Apple Podcasts.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: We're down to 4.6.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Please go and give us a five-star rating.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: This is just a perpetual war between 4.6 and 4.7.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot at stake here.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Apple Podcasts, rate and review us.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Anything else, Katie?
25:57
SPEAKER_02: The merch store is dead.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Finally.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Don't go to the merch store.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't think you can go to the merch store.
26:02
SPEAKER_02: No, there is the zombie merch store that somebody else started.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: Feel free to buy their merch.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: You might never get it.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: No, don't.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: I think if we had...
26:11
SPEAKER_00: More confidence we'd be suing someone for selling our merch,
26:14
SPEAKER_00: but we can't because we don't know how to find a lawyer.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Also, Blocked or Imported.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, we actually do know how to find a lawyer.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: More on that later.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Very funny story.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Blocked or Imported podcast at gmail.com.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do have a funny lawyer story we think will be coming up.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: Libraries.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: What do you know about libraries?
26:28
SPEAKER_02: A lot now.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: OK, so our story today is about a conflict that appears on the surface to be about one thing.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: But if you dig deeper,
26:37
SPEAKER_02: you will find that it's actually about something both much more complex and much
26:42
SPEAKER_02: more mundane.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: And it takes place in Oak Park, Illinois.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: Jesse, are you familiar?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, who isn't?
26:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a great, America's biggest little city, they call it.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Do they?
26:53
SPEAKER_00: No.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Where is it?
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Where is it?
26:54
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so it's a suburb of Chicago.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: One local described, it's a village, described it to me in an email as, quote, very lefty.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: We pride ourselves on our diversity.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: In the 1970s, neighboring parts of Chicago flipped from all white to all black.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: Oak Park heroically resisted this and became integrated.
27:11
SPEAKER_02: That's our modern origin story.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: Before that, we were almost all white and famous for Frank Lloyd Wright and Hemingway.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: So today it's diverse.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: It's about 60 percent white, 20 percent black.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: And it's the sort of place with in this house yard signs, little free libraries, high taxes.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: And according to our local correspondent,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: lots of blowing things out of proportion,
27:30
SPEAKER_02: which could really be the theme of this show.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so our story takes place at the Oak Park Public Library.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: And this is a very well-regarded library.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: It's won dozens of awards.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: And in 2022, it was ranked the third best library of its size in the entire nation by a library journal.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: And the library, like the town, espouses progressive values.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: So for instance, the library's top stated values are things like equity and anti-racism.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: They have an elaborate eight-part anti-racism plan with goals like
27:59
SPEAKER_02: Create opportunities to discuss how we all have internalized racism using affinity
28:03
SPEAKER_02: spaces and collective and intersectional spaces.
28:06
SPEAKER_02: Should we do that, Jesse?
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this sounds really cutting edge.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like good stuff.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
28:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know what I'm doing for my next birthday.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: They're also big on queer shit.
28:13
SPEAKER_02: So lots of LGBTQ programming.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: They actually have a rainbow services librarian who is a trans children's librarian
28:20
SPEAKER_02: and looks exactly what you would guess down to the blue hair.
28:23
SPEAKER_02: They had an event earlier this year where an author named Linz with a Z read from their new picture book.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: Hooray for she, he, ze, and they.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: So social justice is very big there.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: OK.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: And this was I mean, is this a recent occurrence?
28:38
SPEAKER_00: All the social justice stuff in the library?
28:40
SPEAKER_02: It's relatively new.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: So they first hired a social worker in 2016.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: They went fine free in 2017.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: So well before most other libraries.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And that's a sort of equity thing.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: You know, the idea that maybe poor people wouldn't be able to pay liabilities.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: library fines.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: So they got rid of the fines.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: And the principles of DEI and anti-racism have become really the driving force
29:02
SPEAKER_02: behind the library since the Great Awakening,
29:04
SPEAKER_02: whenever we can pin that to.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: And it really does infuse a lot of the decision making at the library.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: So in 2022, the then executive director, he was a white guy.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: He retired and the board hired a recruiting firm called John Keister and Associates
29:20
SPEAKER_02: to find his replacement.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: And that firm specialized in finding executive directors for libraries.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: But there was a conflict between the board and Keister.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: Because Keister wanted to find someone with a master's degree in library science
29:34
SPEAKER_02: and a background in public libraries,
29:35
SPEAKER_02: so someone with experience.
29:37
SPEAKER_02: But the board wanted more of a DEI focus.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: And by that, I mean they didn't want to hire another white guy.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: So Keister left, and they hired a diversity consultant named Rashida Graham Washington to replace him.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: And she specialized in finding diverse, so that means non-white students.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: candidates.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: And she had worked for the library system before.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: She performed an equity audit in 2020,
29:59
SPEAKER_02: and she explicitly advocated for lowering some barriers in order to increase
30:03
SPEAKER_02: diversity among candidates.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: So doing things like not requiring a master's degree at the director level.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: And this is a controversial position among librarians,
30:13
SPEAKER_02: many of whom feels like it devalues the position and the work that they've done to
30:17
SPEAKER_02: hire people who don't have a degree or background to lead these institutions.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: And you yourself have a partial degree in library science.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: So this is like personal for you.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally personal.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: Mine was technically an information science, but I skipped orientation.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: So I never found out what that is.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, Oak Park, the board is all in with social justice.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: Social justice is king.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: And this is true at a lot of libraries.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: But of course, it depends on where you are and who runs the library and who's on the board.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: So,
30:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
30:46
SPEAKER_02: there are probably libraries in Texas that are currently heating the building by
30:50
SPEAKER_02: throwing copies of Genderqueer in the incinerator.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: But libraries do tend to fall on the woke part of the spectrum, as far as I can tell.
30:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, I went to library school for a year.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: It was very queer.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: I presume my classmates have all covered their Harry Potter tattoos up with the trans flag by now.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, at least in my program.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: And this was...
31:09
SPEAKER_02: This was like 2008.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: So this is sort of before this big shifts.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: But people even then did have big feelings about social justice.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: And so I was not surprised at all to recently read in the newsletter Heterodoxy in
31:22
SPEAKER_02: the Stacks,
31:23
SPEAKER_02: which is a sort of anti-woke library newsletter,
31:25
SPEAKER_02: that at the 2024 Public Library Association Conference,
31:30
SPEAKER_02: a third of sessions were related to DEI and social justice.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: This is a trend.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: So did Oak Park find an executive director who ended up being diverse?
31:40
SPEAKER_02: They did.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: They actually found the perfect candidate.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's it for the story?
31:45
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Jocelyn Bolling Dixon.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: And they didn't even have to lower their standards for her because not only does
31:50
SPEAKER_02: she have a master's in library science,
31:52
SPEAKER_02: she was at the time the executive director of the Newark Public Library.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: And she had roots in Oak Park.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: She'd actually worked- Newark, like Newark, New Jersey?
32:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd want to leave there for like a nice suburban Illinois city too.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: She'd actually worked at the Oak Park Public Library like 20 years before.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: So roots in the community experience and even better.
32:10
SPEAKER_02: She's not just black, but she's a black woman.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: So for the board, it was like jackpot.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: She checked all the boxes.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: And.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: Jocelyn is really the central character of the story.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: And while she's definitely on board with a lot of the DEI stuff, this is just not her primary concern.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Whoa, wait, wait, wait.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: That's fucked up.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: I know.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: How did they let her in if her primary concern... What is her primary concern if it's not DEI stuff?
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Running the library.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that white supremacy culture?
32:38
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
32:39
SPEAKER_02: So I spoke to a number of her colleagues and her admirers,
32:42
SPEAKER_02: and there are many of them perceived her as very good,
32:45
SPEAKER_02: excellent even.
32:46
SPEAKER_02: They said she was personable, friendly, she treated everyone equally, and she was tough.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Tough but fair.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: I kept hearing that.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: But she could also rub some people the wrong way because she was a rule enforcer.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: So she didn't abide by slackers.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: And according to several of my sources,
33:03
SPEAKER_02: there were a handful of problem employees at Oak Park,
33:05
SPEAKER_02: people who showed up late,
33:07
SPEAKER_02: who underperformed,
33:08
SPEAKER_02: who just didn't get their shit done.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: And a couple of them were people of color.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And the prior executive director,
33:13
SPEAKER_02: this white guy,
33:14
SPEAKER_02: he just would not or could not discipline these employees because how would that look?
33:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean, especially in an institution with an explicitly anti-racist mission.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: But Jocelyn wasn't worried about being called racist.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: She had the melanin force field, as our friend Camille calls it.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: And if people weren't doing their jobs, no matter who they were, they would hear about it.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: There would be consequences.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: There would be trainings.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: It would be in their permanent records.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: And this tendency to keep people in line made her both loyal admirers and some enemies.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: And that's key to understanding everything that would happen next.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: So remember that.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: So in addition to considering DEI in hiring, Oak Park also considers DEI in event programming.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: So Jesse,
33:56
SPEAKER_02: do you know much about the fights that have gone on in public libraries over the
34:00
SPEAKER_02: use of their space in recent years?
34:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a couple of strains here.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: One is that there's been a backlash to sort of LGBT events going on in libraries.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think we also talked about a story where a
34:14
SPEAKER_00: I think like a gender critical type of event was canceled, I believe, at a Pacific Northwest library.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of this just comes down to these are public taxpayer funded spaces.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think legally, it's pretty close to an anything goes situation.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: So that wasn't the Pacific Northwest.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: That was in Davis, California.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: But this is a recurring issue at some libraries because libraries are publicly funded.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: So they can't
34:36
SPEAKER_02: ban groups from using their public meeting rooms based on the group's ideology or
34:40
SPEAKER_02: whatever topic they're going to be discussing.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: So if you want to have a meeting about protecting women's sports,
34:46
SPEAKER_02: so a meeting about keeping trans women out of women's sports,
34:49
SPEAKER_02: the library can't say,
34:50
SPEAKER_02: no,
34:51
SPEAKER_02: that's transphobic.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: You can't use our meeting rooms.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: But as you mentioned, some libraries have tried to do this.
34:57
SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
34:58
SPEAKER_02: we did a show a few months ago about the public library in Davis,
35:01
SPEAKER_02: California,
35:01
SPEAKER_02: where the head librarian did,
35:03
SPEAKER_02: in fact,
35:03
SPEAKER_02: in the midst of a meeting,
35:04
SPEAKER_02: shut the event down.
35:06
SPEAKER_02: This is just it's blatantly unconstitutional.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: And the American Library Association, to its credit, has been very clear about this.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: It's on their website.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: A public library that opens its facilities for public use may not exclude a group
35:19
SPEAKER_02: from its facilities to avoid controversy or public disapproval.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: But there's a difference between a library actually allowing event in a public
35:27
SPEAKER_02: meeting space and a library actually hosting an event.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: What's the difference there?
35:32
SPEAKER_02: Endorsement, basically.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: So as an example,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: a few years ago,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: I went to an event at the Seattle Public Library that featured Megan Murphy,
35:39
SPEAKER_02: Kara Dansky,
35:40
SPEAKER_02: and a few other feminists who oppose trans women in female only spaces.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: The event was held at the public library.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: It was not a library event.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: So the library offered minimal support aside from the space and security to keep
35:53
SPEAKER_02: the very enraged they-thems protesting outside from burning the place down.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: When they actually host events,
35:58
SPEAKER_02: they offer more support,
35:59
SPEAKER_02: more resources,
36:00
SPEAKER_02: they advertise the events,
36:02
SPEAKER_02: and the events basically have the library's stamp of approval.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: At the end of last year,
36:07
SPEAKER_02: the Oak Park Library agreed to hold an event called the Palestinian Festival as a
36:12
SPEAKER_02: community-led event,
36:13
SPEAKER_02: not a library-sponsored event.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: It was held in January of this year and it was basically a cultural celebration.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: So there were dance workshops,
36:20
SPEAKER_02: embroidery workshops,
36:21
SPEAKER_02: a drum circle,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: art projects for kids,
36:23
SPEAKER_02: spoken word performances.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: They screened a film about life in the West Bank.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: And by all accounts, the event was great.
36:30
SPEAKER_02: There were like 400 people there,
36:32
SPEAKER_02: no drama,
36:33
SPEAKER_02: no calls for cancellation,
36:34
SPEAKER_02: just a totally normal cultural event at a public library.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: But there was some confusion about the sponsorship.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: So,
36:41
SPEAKER_02: Jesse,
36:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to show you a screenshot of the event description that was posted on the
36:45
SPEAKER_02: library website in advance of the event.
36:48
SPEAKER_02: You see that in our notes?
36:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:50
SPEAKER_02: So if you look at the event description...
36:52
SPEAKER_02: It reads, this is not a library-led event.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: Then there's the description, come join us as we celebrate the diversity of Palestinian culture.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: And then,
37:00
SPEAKER_02: Jesse,
37:01
SPEAKER_02: okay,
37:01
SPEAKER_02: you see there at the bottom right of the page under organization info,
37:04
SPEAKER_02: like a sidebar?
37:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:06
SPEAKER_02: Read that.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Organization colon Oak Park Public Library.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's confusing.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:10
SPEAKER_02: So that one thing,
37:12
SPEAKER_02: the fact that this website had conflicting information there would become a giant
37:16
SPEAKER_02: scandal in Oak Park.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: But we will get to that later.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: I know we'll get to it later, but I don't even... Okay.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: I was going to say something extremely stupid.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: That stupid thing was, how could celebration of Palestinian culture be controversial?
37:31
SPEAKER_00: But as I say that out loud, I realize I'm being an idiot.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: I look forward to finding out.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: But who actually organized the festival?
37:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing it was not Hamas.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: It was not Hamas.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: It was two groups,
37:43
SPEAKER_02: the Committee for a Just Peace in Israel-Palestine and the Oak Park and River
37:47
SPEAKER_02: Forest High School Middle Eastern North American Student Alliance,
37:50
SPEAKER_02: or Apofer Menchisathasa.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Please tell me they actually call themselves that.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: They don't.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the event is held at the library in late January.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: No issues, just a normal community event like they have every week.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: But not long after the event and unrelated to the event,
38:05
SPEAKER_02: two staff positions at the library were eliminated due to budget cuts because this library,
38:10
SPEAKER_02: like many libraries,
38:10
SPEAKER_02: has money problems.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: And one of those jobs was DEI related.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: It was on the community engagement team and the position was restorative practices coordinator,
38:19
SPEAKER_02: which was held by a woman named Tatiana Swansea.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: What does a restorative practices coordinator do?
38:25
SPEAKER_02: So I also wondered this.
38:26
SPEAKER_02: I can sort of imagine that position at,
38:28
SPEAKER_02: say,
38:28
SPEAKER_02: a prison,
38:29
SPEAKER_02: but I wasn't sure why this would be something a library would employ.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: So I looked it up, and I found a library journal.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: That's the name of the journal, library journal.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: An article by Oak Park Library's first director of equity and anti-racism.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: His name is Steven Jackson.
38:44
SPEAKER_02: And he said it involves something called peace circles.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: Now, Steven is an interesting character.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: He's going to come up later.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: But as background, he's a Chicago native.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: He joined a gang as a teenager.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: He did some crimes.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: He got caught.
38:57
SPEAKER_02: He served 12 years out of a 25-year prison sentence for armed robbery.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: While he was in prison,
39:02
SPEAKER_02: he turned his life around and eventually started working in mentoring,
39:05
SPEAKER_02: restorative justice,
39:06
SPEAKER_02: and he got this job at the library.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: And he was promoted to the director level despite not having a master's of library science,
39:12
SPEAKER_02: which,
39:13
SPEAKER_02: again,
39:13
SPEAKER_02: that traditionally would have been required for leadership.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: But this was eliminated as part of their equity agenda.
39:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: So Stephen wrote that article in 2021.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: And at the time, they had 23 staff members trained in peace circle keeping.
39:26
SPEAKER_02: And then during COVID, they shifted to online peace circles.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: He also says in that article that their then newly hired restorative practices coordinator,
39:34
SPEAKER_02: so that's Tatiana Swansea,
39:36
SPEAKER_02: was responsible for,
39:37
SPEAKER_02: quote,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: developing,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: implementing,
39:39
SPEAKER_02: and promoting practices and programs that support the library's anti-racist journey
39:43
SPEAKER_02: and peace circles.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: I still don't quite know what a peace circle is and why a library is doing them.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: We're going to do them at the live show.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, do you like, I don't this.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Peace circle is part of the process of making for our purposes, making the library less racist.
39:58
SPEAKER_02: It's a restorative justice thing.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: And then Tatiana Swansea, who works in this area, is laid – she was laid off?
40:05
SPEAKER_02: No.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: Both Tatiana and the other person whose job was eliminated were reassigned.
40:09
SPEAKER_02: They were offered jobs that were deemed more vital to keep the library functioning,
40:14
SPEAKER_02: and the plan was to fold some of the DEI stuff into other jobs.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: But Tatiana Swansea,
40:19
SPEAKER_02: she did not accept the reassignment,
40:21
SPEAKER_02: and she was very unhappy about being reassigned,
40:24
SPEAKER_02: and the fact that they only gave her a few days to decide –
40:27
SPEAKER_02: And soon after this,
40:27
SPEAKER_02: a user in a local progressive activist group called Activate Oak Park posted a call
40:32
SPEAKER_02: to action on Facebook.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: Jesse, I'm going to ask you to read from this Facebook post, starting with, are you aware?
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Are you aware that the community engagement team is at risk of being dismantled?
40:41
SPEAKER_00: Not an exaggeration.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: As of today, we do not have a restorative practices coordinator.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: I just find it funny.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like this thing that was invented 30 seconds ago.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: Could you imagine a library without a restorative practices coordinator?
40:55
SPEAKER_00: Another member of the team was forced to pivot to other tasks,
40:58
SPEAKER_00: cutting community engagement to only 25% going forward.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: And BTW, direct manager, was not informed of the changes beforehand.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: Employees had no input.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: If you have friends at the library, I'm sure you've heard about this already.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: In addition to recounts of disrespect and abusive managerial practices.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: That's quite an accusation.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: OK, so this post sets off a massive chain reaction.
41:48
SPEAKER_02: The Facebook user, her name is Melissa.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: She claims that the event was handled racially and now this DEI position is being eliminated.
41:56
SPEAKER_02: Ergo, Oak Park Public Library is racist.
41:58
SPEAKER_02: And yes, then she ends the post with this call to action.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: Let's go to the board meeting tomorrow.
42:03
SPEAKER_00: So when she says the Palestinian celebration thing was handled differently,
42:08
SPEAKER_00: what does she – and racially.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Racially.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: What does she mean by that?
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
42:11
SPEAKER_02: So that refers to the fact that the event was not designated as an official library
42:16
SPEAKER_02: event but as a community-led event.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: And these critics believe that this was because of some bias within the library
42:23
SPEAKER_02: against Palestinians in light of the October 7th attack and the fallout from that.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: And so this rumor spreads and mutates really quickly online and throughout the community –
42:32
SPEAKER_02: The library is racist.
42:33
SPEAKER_02: And not only that, the library mistreats its staff.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: It abuses its staff.
42:36
SPEAKER_02: It's a hostile work environment.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: And one name in particular kept coming up.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Jocelyn Bowling Dixon, the executive director.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: So people started posting these almost cartoonishly evil rumors about her.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: So like one guy in the group posted a whole slew of allegations against Jocelyn.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: He said his trusted sources told him all manner of negative things about her.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: Like he says that she tried to get the board to give her a Tesla and a driver.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: Quote, she told people, stay loyal to me and you'll be rewarded.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: No one I spoke to who actually worked at the library heard anything like that from Jocelyn.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: To be like a Donald Trump, like tyrant running a small town library.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: How did the library respond to all this stuff?
43:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: So the next day, the library posts its own statement on Facebook.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: This was attributed to Jocelyn Bowling Dixon.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: That post has since been deleted, but we have an archive.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't name activate Oak Park,
43:27
SPEAKER_02: but she alludes to this post and she says she wants to address some misinformation
43:31
SPEAKER_02: that's been going around about the situation.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: Quote,
43:34
SPEAKER_02: this narrative about the library has many inaccuracies claiming practices directly
43:38
SPEAKER_02: opposed to who we are and how we operate,
43:40
SPEAKER_02: dot,
43:40
SPEAKER_02: dot,
43:40
SPEAKER_02: dot.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: At its core,
43:42
SPEAKER_02: it is hurtful to multiple library staff members who are committed to this community
43:45
SPEAKER_02: and to the library's equity and anti-racism work.
43:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so she's just being like, no, this didn't happen, but in a more polite voice.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there's a board meeting right after all this becomes public.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: The board meeting that that activated Oak Park Facebook post urged people to attend.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: A local media outlet called Wednesday Journal covered it under the headline,
44:02
SPEAKER_02: Public lashes out at Oak Park Library over management of Palestinian cultural event,
44:07
SPEAKER_02: subhead.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: Many are criticizing the library for mishandling the event and eliminating at least one DEI position.
44:13
SPEAKER_02: And according to that article,
44:14
SPEAKER_02: about 30 members of the public submitted comments or spoke at the meeting,
44:18
SPEAKER_02: basically accusing this incredibly progressive organization of being reactionary,
44:22
SPEAKER_02: if not racist,
44:23
SPEAKER_02: because they eliminated this DEI position and because the Palestinian cultural
44:27
SPEAKER_02: event was a community sponsored event rather than a library sponsored event,
44:31
SPEAKER_02: which is what started all this.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't get how this little thing became such a big deal.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: theme of a podcast but i think it's just optics like it seems yeah it seems like
44:42
SPEAKER_02: such a small thing to get pissed about especially because the event went well like
44:46
SPEAKER_02: who cares if it was library sponsored or not but there was some genuine confusion
44:49
SPEAKER_02: over whether or not this was a library event because of that listing on their
44:53
SPEAKER_02: website yeah it was confusing yeah it said this is not a library event and then
44:57
SPEAKER_02: listed the event organizer as the library and and i mean was this just like some
45:01
SPEAKER_00: weird error do we know how it happened
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
45:04
SPEAKER_02: so one of the event organizers,
45:06
SPEAKER_02: her name is Rebecca Levine,
45:07
SPEAKER_02: and she was from the Committee for a Just Peace in Palestine,
45:11
SPEAKER_02: Israel.
45:11
SPEAKER_02: She spoke at that board meeting,
45:12
SPEAKER_02: and she said that they'd been holding this event at the library for 22 years,
45:16
SPEAKER_02: and these were always community-led events,
45:18
SPEAKER_02: always.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: She also said, quote,
45:20
SPEAKER_02: We have always had tremendous support in setting up and running these events,
45:24
SPEAKER_02: from security to IT support to tables with library materials that people might want
45:27
SPEAKER_02: to check out related to the events,
45:29
SPEAKER_02: to staff coming by and seeing the exhibits and hearing the speakers.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: We have never asked for library co-sponsorship, but we had the backing and support of your staff.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: So she said that this year she once again proposed an event at the library.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: Then she met with Wanta Griffin,
45:43
SPEAKER_02: a staff member on the community engagement team,
45:46
SPEAKER_02: and she left that meeting thinking that the library was co-sponsoring the event.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure what Griffin told her or why she had that impression.
45:54
SPEAKER_02: Griffin didn't respond to my request for comments.
45:56
SPEAKER_02: But we do have an email from Wanta Griffin that was sent to the executive director,
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Jocelyn Bowling-Dixon,
46:02
SPEAKER_02: who
46:02
SPEAKER_02: and the Director of Programs and Services.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Lori Pulliam.
46:06
SPEAKER_02: It's dated December 12, 2023.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: Jesse, please read this in full.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Hello, Lori and Jocelyn.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: In regards to this event,
46:12
SPEAKER_00: I am approaching it as I do the Asian American Heritage Festival as a collaboration.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: We will pull books,
46:17
SPEAKER_00: provide space,
46:18
SPEAKER_00: help with setup,
46:18
SPEAKER_00: and allow the group to celebrate their heritage in a safe space.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: It is not a library event.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: However, we do offer basic library support to these community members.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: Respectfully, Wanta K. Griffin, M-A, she, her, hers.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: So Wanta is clear there.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: This is not a library event.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: She says that.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: But apparently she told Rebecca Levine,
46:37
SPEAKER_02: the organizer,
46:37
SPEAKER_02: something else,
46:38
SPEAKER_02: or they got their wires crossed and there was some kind of miscommunication because Rebecca,
46:42
SPEAKER_02: for some reason,
46:43
SPEAKER_02: was under the impression that the library was sponsoring this event.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: Then Wanta went on medical leave and her replacement emailed Rebecca and was like,
46:50
SPEAKER_02: actually,
46:50
SPEAKER_02: this is not a library-led event,
46:51
SPEAKER_02: so I can't promote it on social media.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: So Rebecca is confused about this.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: But again, the event went marvelously.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: And then a few months later,
46:59
SPEAKER_02: there's this agitating behind the scenes and on Facebook,
47:02
SPEAKER_02: all of this burst open.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: And here's what she said at that board meeting.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: What happened in these three short months to our library?
47:09
SPEAKER_02: What was gained by reclassifying and demoting this event from a partnership to a non-library event?
47:15
SPEAKER_02: The only thing that we can see that came out of it is that a whole part of our
47:19
SPEAKER_02: community was told that their event was less,
47:21
SPEAKER_02: was welcome,
47:21
SPEAKER_02: but not with an embrace,
47:23
SPEAKER_02: could not come in the door.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: Please use the side door."
47:26
SPEAKER_00: this is dude oh my god so many people just need better uses of their times like get
47:31
SPEAKER_00: a hobby maybe like a board game night this is such a little thing for an event that
47:37
SPEAKER_00: went well and attracted 400 people yes it's a small library almost as though people
47:41
SPEAKER_00: want to be offended it's also and it's all unclear to me like who was hurt by this
47:48
SPEAKER_00: okay they got 30 people to make comments at this meeting but on the basis of what
47:53
SPEAKER_00: sounds like a fair amount of misinformation anyway so what happens after this
47:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
47:56
SPEAKER_02: so after that first board meeting when the community members show up to voice their anger,
48:00
SPEAKER_02: the board releases a statement.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: It begins,
48:16
SPEAKER_02: We apologize for the relationships that have been compromised during our tenure as a board.
48:21
SPEAKER_02: We take accountability for this harm in our community,
48:23
SPEAKER_02: and we thank the community for your patience while we work on best steps towards repairs.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, why are they doing that?
48:30
SPEAKER_00: Why are they throwing themselves under the bus when it's very unclear anything went
48:33
SPEAKER_00: wrong here other than a pretty simple misunderstanding?
48:36
SPEAKER_02: The psychology of the modern American progressive is a complex subject, Jesse.
48:43
SPEAKER_02: So there are repairs, of course, you know, that includes restorative justice.
48:46
SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, they eliminated the restorative justice manager.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: So I guess they'll have to freeball the peace circle.
48:51
SPEAKER_02: And they say that they're working on a plan that includes a way for staff to give anonymous feedback.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: What could go wrong there?
48:57
SPEAKER_02: And they're going to hold a special board meeting to figure out how to be more accountable to the public.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Statements like this never, it never helped.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: It's never like, oh, well, thanks for apologizing because the initial accusation was so vague.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Apologizing for the vague, like there's no way this helped, right?
49:11
SPEAKER_02: Never in history has a statement smoothed anything over.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: Statements can only make things worse, which is what happened here.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: So they post a statement on Facebook.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: More fighting and criticism ensue in the comments.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: One Jewish woman weighs in and say the library shouldn't have sponsored the event
49:25
SPEAKER_02: because an Israeli cultural event would have led to a meltdown,
49:27
SPEAKER_02: which leads to more fighting in the thread.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: Probably true, actually.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
49:30
SPEAKER_02: and the whole thing devolves really quickly,
49:32
SPEAKER_02: which is why you should never post a statement you shouldn't have written in the
49:35
SPEAKER_02: first place on Facebook.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: After that, the executive director, Jocelyn Bolling Dixon, she wrote an apology of her own.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: It begins, Dear Oak Park Public Library community, I am sorry.
49:44
SPEAKER_02: I am accountable for this library and to this library.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: I am deeply sorry I contributed to the hurt experienced by community members
49:51
SPEAKER_02: surrounding the celebration of Palestinian cultural event.
49:54
SPEAKER_02: Again, the event was fun.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't this is I've we've talked about other instances of like people summing up
50:03
SPEAKER_00: controversies out of nothing I'm not sure I can remember one where there was so
50:07
SPEAKER_02: little kindling for such a big fire right so Jocelyn she continues in that vein for
50:12
SPEAKER_02: a while and she says they're going to have two Ramadan events that will be library
50:16
SPEAKER_02: sponsored and she emphasizes again how very sorry she is and says she's committed
50:20
SPEAKER_02: to repairing harm so it's do better with more syllables
50:24
SPEAKER_00: But there's still no, unless I'm missing something, no evidence anyone did anything wrong here.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: It sounds like there's a paper trail suggesting a misunderstanding and that they
50:32
SPEAKER_00: treated this similarly to the Asian heritage thing.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Who is actually complaining about this?
50:39
SPEAKER_02: OK, so I filed a public records request to get that information.
50:43
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to know if anybody had written the library and said,
50:47
SPEAKER_02: like,
50:47
SPEAKER_02: look,
50:48
SPEAKER_02: as a Jew,
50:49
SPEAKER_02: as a Jewish person,
50:50
SPEAKER_02: as an Israeli,
50:51
SPEAKER_02: anything like this,
50:53
SPEAKER_02: I condemn your holding a Palestinian event and that would make them,
50:57
SPEAKER_02: you know,
50:58
SPEAKER_02: rethink co-sponsoring it.
51:01
SPEAKER_02: It was sort of a long shot because what terminology do you use, right?
51:05
SPEAKER_02: Like I filed FOIAs for like the terms Jew and Jewish and Israel and Israeli and
51:11
SPEAKER_02: Palestinian festival,
51:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
51:13
SPEAKER_02: thinking that someone might have used those terms.
51:15
SPEAKER_02: Nothing came back.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: And a spokesperson for the library told me,
51:18
SPEAKER_02: no,
51:19
SPEAKER_02: they were not aware of any complaints either before the festival or in response to
51:25
SPEAKER_02: the festival.
51:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
51:26
SPEAKER_02: regardless,
51:27
SPEAKER_02: I don't think any of this would have happened had the event been scheduled for
51:31
SPEAKER_02: before October 7th,
51:33
2023.
51:34
SPEAKER_02: No one would have cared if the event were library sponsored or not.
51:37
SPEAKER_02: But the event were held in January.
51:39
SPEAKER_02: And during that period, you know, tensions were high.
51:41
SPEAKER_02: This is right around the time there were those university presidents who were
51:44
SPEAKER_02: pushed out for being insufficiently anti-anti-Semitic.
51:48
SPEAKER_02: There were viral videos every day of people tearing down hostage posters.
51:52
SPEAKER_02: Events and people were being canceled on both sides of the debate.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: So I don't think it's totally unreasonable for the bystanders to assume that the
51:59
SPEAKER_02: library was trying to avoid conflict by not sponsoring the Palestinian event.
52:03
SPEAKER_02: But again, like the event had been held there for 22 years and they'd never sponsored it before.
52:08
SPEAKER_02: So why would they start now?
52:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: But in fact, it was actually about something much more pedestrian.
52:29
SPEAKER_02: So remember the name Steven Jackson?
52:31
SPEAKER_02: I mentioned him earlier.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: He was the director of anti-racism and equity.
52:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
52:35
SPEAKER_02: so I'm not going to go into the details here,
52:37
SPEAKER_02: but there were some issues with Steven's performance at work,
52:41
SPEAKER_02: and there had been complaints about him from colleagues.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: And Jocelyn Bowling-Dixon, the executive director, as you'll recall, she's an enforcer.
52:48
SPEAKER_02: She does not tolerate bullshit.
52:50
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't tolerate underperformance.
52:52
SPEAKER_02: What I can disclose is that one conflict between Stephen and Jocelyn had to do with
52:57
SPEAKER_02: a restorative practices conference that was also held in January.
53:01
SPEAKER_02: So Stephen headed the committee that organized the event,
53:04
SPEAKER_02: and the committee invited a guy named Tyrone Muhammad as the keynote speaker at the event.
53:09
SPEAKER_02: And Tyrone Muhammad is the CEO of an organization called X-Cons for Community and
53:13
SPEAKER_02: Social Change,
53:14
SPEAKER_02: which does sound perfect for a restorative justice event,
53:17
SPEAKER_02: but he's also a bit problematic.
53:20
SPEAKER_02: So,
53:20
SPEAKER_02: Jesse,
53:21
SPEAKER_02: please read from this email sent to the board of directors by gay rights and other
53:24
SPEAKER_02: social justice organizations.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: I got this via public records request.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: In March 2022,
53:29
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
53:29
SPEAKER_00: Muhammad violently interrupted a rally organized by many LGBTQ plus organizations
53:34
SPEAKER_00: in support of trans rights after the deaths of two black transgender women.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: Muhammad and other members of the ECCSC,
53:40
SPEAKER_00: that's Xcons for Social Change,
53:42
SPEAKER_00: pushed their way through the gathering,
53:43
SPEAKER_00: forcibly moving many of the participants.
53:45
SPEAKER_00: Using intimidation,
53:46
SPEAKER_00: wearing bulletproof vests,
53:47
SPEAKER_00: and screaming through bullhorns,
53:48
SPEAKER_00: they used physical force to silence black trans women and other LGBTQ plus people
53:53
SPEAKER_00: who were there participating in the rally,
53:55
SPEAKER_00: including a number of residents of Oak Park and Forest Park,
53:58
SPEAKER_00: dot,
53:58
SPEAKER_00: dot,
53:58
SPEAKER_00: dot.
53:59
SPEAKER_00: In addition,
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
54:00
SPEAKER_00: Muhammad received $250,000 from anti-equality individuals and organizations such as
54:05
SPEAKER_00: Dan Proft's People Who Play By The Rules.
54:07
SPEAKER_00: Dan Proft?
54:08
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking Proft, but regardless, he's a conservative talk radio host in Chicago.
54:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, back to the letter.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: Muhammad has,
54:15
SPEAKER_00: quote,
54:15
SPEAKER_00: worked with anti-equality leaders and elected officials who are actively working to
54:18
SPEAKER_00: erase protections for LGBTQ plus people.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: Mr.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: Muhammad was also arrested last year protesting the use of a woodlawn school to
54:25
SPEAKER_00: house migrants,
54:26
SPEAKER_00: fueling divisions and anti-immigrant rhetoric,
54:28
SPEAKER_00: end quote.
54:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:29
SPEAKER_02: So they asked the library to resent his invitation,
54:32
SPEAKER_02: quote,
54:32
SPEAKER_02: restorative practices are unquestionably essential,
54:35
SPEAKER_02: giving a platform to Mr.
54:37
SPEAKER_02: Muhammad and his organization,
54:38
SPEAKER_02: knowing that his previous actions suppress the voices of black trans women do not
54:42
SPEAKER_02: reflect the values of this community.
54:44
SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
54:45
SPEAKER_02: it is kind of funny that the very,
54:49
SPEAKER_02: very,
54:49
SPEAKER_02: very woke library invited a guy who's like anti-immigrant and anti-LGBT to keynote
54:57
SPEAKER_02: this event.
54:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: And did they rescind the invitation?
54:59
SPEAKER_02: They did.
55:00
SPEAKER_02: And again, this was Steven Jackson's event.
55:03
SPEAKER_02: So his keynote got canceled.
55:04
SPEAKER_02: So between that and some performance issues, there's beef between him and Jocelyn.
55:09
SPEAKER_02: Now, Steven had an important ally outside the library.
55:13
SPEAKER_02: She's a community member.
55:14
SPEAKER_02: Her name is Susan Lucci, like the soap star who lost the Daytime Emmy 18 times, but not her.
55:19
SPEAKER_02: She's just a community member.
55:21
SPEAKER_02: But she's been advocating for Stephen for years.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: So remember, Stephen did 12 years in prison for armed robbery.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: And I found an article from 2016 about a clemency hearing.
55:30
SPEAKER_02: He was trying to get a pardon from the governor.
55:32
SPEAKER_02: And Lucci was quoted in that as one of his supporters saying,
55:35
SPEAKER_02: So Lucci declined to talk to me or answer any questions and,
55:38
SPEAKER_02: in fact,
55:39
SPEAKER_02: asked me not to do this because the community needed healing.
55:41
SPEAKER_02: For anyone listening to this,
55:42
SPEAKER_02: a fantastic way to get a reporter to continue looking into you is to ask them not
55:46
SPEAKER_02: to look into you.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: By the way, yeah.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize the community needed healing.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: We won't do the podcast.
55:52
SPEAKER_02: Oh,
55:52
SPEAKER_02: Jesse,
55:52
SPEAKER_02: by the way,
55:53
SPEAKER_02: remember a couple episodes ago when I said that I had some issues getting people to
55:59
SPEAKER_02: talk to me based on the description of our podcast?
56:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:01
SPEAKER_02: She was also one of them.
56:03
SPEAKER_02: Have you changed it yet?
56:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: We should get around to change that.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: We're going to start a committee.
56:08
SPEAKER_02: We'll do a peace circle.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: The Steven Jackson guy could have it.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
56:11
SPEAKER_02: So Lucy didn't talk to me,
56:13
SPEAKER_02: but judging from just purely from her social media,
56:17
SPEAKER_02: she strikes me as a quintessential performative progressive activist.
56:20
SPEAKER_02: Like she's got photos of Ketanji Brown Jackson and Kamala Harris on her Facebook page.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: She wears an RBG face mask and you can just tell she's gotten in this house.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: We believe sign in her yard and probably a non-binary teenager in the house.
56:34
SPEAKER_02: And she's one of the loudest voices trying to get Jocelyn Bowling Dixon fired,
56:38
SPEAKER_02: both publicly and behind the scenes.
56:40
SPEAKER_02: And this goes back well before the clusterfuck over the Palestinian festival.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: So in July 2023,
56:46
SPEAKER_02: for instance,
56:46
SPEAKER_02: six months before the festival was even on the books,
56:49
SPEAKER_02: she emailed the board president.
56:50
SPEAKER_02: His name is Matt Fruth.
56:52
SPEAKER_02: I got these emails via public records request.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: And she begins.
56:56
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Matt.
56:56
SPEAKER_02: She then goes on to say that what she's hearing about Jocelyn is, quote, quite unsettling, if not scary.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: People are fearful of retaliation.
57:04
SPEAKER_02: So much wonderful equity and community work has been accomplished over the past years,
57:08
SPEAKER_02: which I fear is now being set back.
57:10
SPEAKER_02: I heard the environment is becoming toxic quite fast.
57:14
SPEAKER_00: Sounds, seems like a smear campaign.
57:16
SPEAKER_00: Who is she supposedly hearing this from?
57:18
SPEAKER_02: So she doesn't say and she wouldn't talk to me.
57:20
SPEAKER_02: But again, she's close with Steven Jackson.
57:22
SPEAKER_02: Steven has conflict with Jocelyn.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: This is speculation on my part, but my guess is that it was him.
57:28
SPEAKER_02: I would have asked him, but he didn't respond to my request for comment either.
57:32
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, the board president, Matt Fruth, he doesn't respond to her.
57:35
SPEAKER_02: She tries to get in November and you can tell she means business because this time it's not hi, Matt.
57:40
SPEAKER_02: It's dear Mr. Fruth.
57:42
SPEAKER_02: Four months ago,
57:43
SPEAKER_02: that's in italics,
57:44
SPEAKER_02: I emailed you very concerned about inappropriate behavior reported to me by
57:48
SPEAKER_02: numerous library employees about the executive director of the Oak Park Library.
57:52
SPEAKER_02: This behavior persists.
57:54
SPEAKER_02: People are being harmed.
57:56
SPEAKER_02: And she says she's surprised she didn't hear back from him.
57:58
SPEAKER_02: Maybe he didn't receive her email?
58:00
SPEAKER_00: But she never laid out...
58:02
SPEAKER_00: It's not like in the initial email she laid out specific accusations.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: She just said she heard stuff, right?
58:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
58:08
SPEAKER_00: So it's so entitled to be like, you didn't respond to my vague allegations.
58:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: And he writes back and he says there have been no complaints from the staff either
58:16
SPEAKER_02: before he got her email or after.
58:18
SPEAKER_02: And if the staff have problems, they can go to him directly.
58:22
SPEAKER_02: So that's one of many emails from Susan Lucci to board members, all of which were obtained via FOIA.
58:27
SPEAKER_02: And she's explicit that she wants Jocelyn out.
58:30
SPEAKER_02: So in one email to board members in January, she writes, I will not stand down.
58:35
SPEAKER_02: My concern over the new executive director's attempt to erase a decade of really good,
58:39
SPEAKER_02: impactful,
58:41
SPEAKER_02: effective equity work continues and,
58:43
SPEAKER_02: in fact,
58:43
SPEAKER_02: is heightened.
58:44
SPEAKER_02: Her continued silencing of the leadership team and specifically our director of
58:48
SPEAKER_02: equity is a serious cause for concern.
58:51
SPEAKER_02: I have repeatedly reached out to both of you on this matter to no satisfaction.
58:54
SPEAKER_02: Again, the director of equity is her friend, Steven Jackson.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: I looked her up,
58:58
SPEAKER_00: by the way,
58:58
SPEAKER_00: and this appears there's a Susan Lucci in Oak Park who has,
59:01
SPEAKER_00: quote,
59:02
SPEAKER_00: this is her website,
59:03
SPEAKER_00: led more than a thousand circles over the past 15 years.
59:06
SPEAKER_00: What is it with Oak Park and circles?
59:07
SPEAKER_00: They're big on circles there.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: Covering a variety of fascinating topics,
59:10
SPEAKER_00: including living more mindfully,
59:12
SPEAKER_00: creating community,
59:13
SPEAKER_00: pursuing purpose with passion,
59:14
SPEAKER_00: activating activists,
59:15
SPEAKER_00: transitioning thoughtfully,
59:17
SPEAKER_00: and aging consciously.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: There's a mystical sisterhood podcast.
59:21
SPEAKER_00: She appeared on her runs.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, I hate that we have to bring race into this.
59:26
SPEAKER_00: She does look pretty non-POC to me.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: I guess we can't know for sure.
59:31
SPEAKER_00: The reason I say that is because in any other context,
59:33
SPEAKER_00: people would be like,
59:34
SPEAKER_00: oh,
59:34
SPEAKER_00: a white woman trying to get a black woman fired.
59:35
SPEAKER_00: That's not our move, but that is what people say.
59:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
59:38
SPEAKER_02: That is what she was trying to do.
59:39
SPEAKER_02: And in another email,
59:41
SPEAKER_02: quoting someone unnamed,
59:42
SPEAKER_02: she says that Jocelyn left a,
59:44
SPEAKER_02: quote,
59:44
SPEAKER_02: trail of traumatic tears,
59:46
SPEAKER_02: end quote,
59:47
SPEAKER_02: in her wake.
59:47
SPEAKER_02: That's like,
59:48
SPEAKER_00: do you think that's somewhat different from the trail of tears,
59:51
SPEAKER_00: the trail of traumatic tears at the library,
59:54
SPEAKER_00: flooding the library?
59:55
SPEAKER_02: It is copyrighted.
59:55
SPEAKER_02: It's a copyright violation.
59:58
SPEAKER_02: She also sent the board quotes allegedly from an anonymous forum for POC library
1:00:02
SPEAKER_02: employees in which someone complained about Jocelyn back at her old library in Newark.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: This is like, I don't know.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: There's like,
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: there are,
1:00:10
SPEAKER_00: I guess it would depend on Jocelyn being a public figure,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: but there's like,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: you can,
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: if you're actively behind the scenes trying to remove someone from their job,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: there's,
1:00:20
SPEAKER_00: It could get a little bit legally problematic.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: This sounds like a really intense campaign to get this woman fired.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: It was.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: Did she do anything wrong at Newark?
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: Did she have enemies there?
1:00:28
SPEAKER_02: She did.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_02: So I reached out to several of her former colleagues in Newark.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_02: And the ones I talked to gave her really strong reviews.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: Again, she was seen as tough but fair.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: One said she's not a puppet, but also said that she's not so headstrong that she won't take direction.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_02: That said,
1:00:42
SPEAKER_02: there was some drama during her time at Newark because when she got there,
1:00:45
SPEAKER_02: it was August in 2020.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: The library was still closed for COVID.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_02: She wanted to reopen the library, and she did that just a month later.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: And for this, she was accused of naturally putting black and brown bodies in danger.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe this shouldn't be a surprise considering who tends to work at libraries.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: Women.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: But it turns out they are as dramatic as knitting groups.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: One way to view this story is that this is a very competent,
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: accomplished black woman who continually ran afoul of the priorities of progressive
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: white women,
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: such as keeping shit closed forever and making sure not only that you have a
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: successful event celebrating Palestinian culture,
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: but that no one feels at all offended or slighted.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a pattern here, I feel like.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
1:01:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if the people who complained about her putting black and brown bodies
1:01:35
SPEAKER_02: in danger in Newark were specifically white.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_02: Newark is a pretty black city, isn't it?
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: For what it's worth,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: I think in a lot of places,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: the fighting tended to be between...
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: Don't you think the reopening schools and libraries tended to break down in a
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: certain way and white progressives led that charge?
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: But maybe not Newark.
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: You could be right.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it did, yes.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_02: And in fact,
1:01:56
SPEAKER_02: it was oftentimes,
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: it seems like this was being really spearheaded by people who maybe worked from home,
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: who weren't essential workers,
1:02:04
SPEAKER_02: so they weren't leaving their house to go deliver fucking DoorDash.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: They could be home with their children,
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: while poor people,
1:02:11
SPEAKER_02: underclass people who are disproportionately people of color were ones who needed
1:02:15
SPEAKER_02: childcare because they actually had to go to work.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, back at Oak Park, things were getting hairier for Jocelyn.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_02: There's all sorts of shit flying around online within the library.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_02: Factions had formed.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_02: And on the surface, this is about the Palestinian festival not being sponsored by the library.
1:02:33
SPEAKER_02: But beneath it all, this is really a bog standard HR battle between slackers and doers.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_02: And I just cannot emphasize how common this sort of thing is.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_02: So many of the cancellation stories I've looked into that are supposedly about
1:02:47
SPEAKER_02: values and social justice are really just about everyday conflicts that happen in
1:02:52
SPEAKER_02: any workplace.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_02: They're just laundered through the guise of anti-racism or social justice.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that seems to be a thing that has happened in a lot of these incidents, for sure.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Jocelyn posted her apology.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_02: I mentioned that a moment ago.
1:03:06
SPEAKER_02: She posted that on March 4th.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_02: The same day, the library updated a page on their website called Library Fact Checker.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_02: This page isn't new.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_02: It's been around since at least 2021.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_02: And at that time,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: it had fact checks about COVID-19,
1:03:19
SPEAKER_02: finances and levies,
1:03:20
SPEAKER_02: local elections,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_02: stuff like that.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure why the library felt it was necessary to fact check that kind of stuff.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_02: But after this latest kerfuffle, they fact check a bunch of the rumors about what was going on.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_02: So it started, quote, one.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_02: The executive director,
1:03:33
SPEAKER_02: Jocelyn Bowling Dixon,
1:03:34
SPEAKER_02: eliminated two equity,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_02: diversity,
1:03:36
SPEAKER_02: and inclusion positions.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_02: False.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_02: Two positions were moved to one team.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_02: And they explained why.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_02: Again, budget cuts.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_02: They also said that the two positions had a lot of overlap and redundancy.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_02: Quote, these position shifts were envisioned as both an evolution and a continuation of the work.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_02: Fact check number two.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_02: There is a culture of fear among the library caused by the executive director.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_02: The fact check reads, false.
1:04:00
SPEAKER_02: Twice per year,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_02: all library staff members are asked to complete a brief survey to gauge how they
1:04:05
SPEAKER_02: are feeling about the culture of the library and their well-being as employees of
1:04:09
SPEAKER_02: the library.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_02: And they say that the results of those surveys found that the staff were largely
1:04:13
SPEAKER_02: content and felt valued and Bowling-Dixon received high marks from the staff.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_02: And I should say this does seem largely validated by the people I spoke to as well
1:04:23
SPEAKER_02: as the public testimony at various board meetings.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_02: So at one board meeting,
1:04:27
SPEAKER_02: the children's services manager said there's a small but vocal minority who have
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: disparaged the executive director.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_02: But she also said, quote, we feel that Jocelyn is the best director this library has had.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: So they publish an online fact check just responding to like basically online rumors, right?
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: part of it was rumors that had been circulating on Facebook and at board meetings,
1:04:48
SPEAKER_02: but part of it also seems to be things that this media outlet,
1:04:53
SPEAKER_02: this local outlet,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_02: Wednesday Journal,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_02: was publishing.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_02: So, like, the fact check has a whole section about the Palestinian event, and it included this quote.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_02: Deputy Director Susie Wolf suggested the library avoid politically sensitive programming.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_02: False.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_02: That's a reference to something that was reported in the Wednesday Journal.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_02: They quoted Tatiana Swansea, so that's the DEI worker whose job was eliminated.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_02: She said Wolf,
1:05:17
SPEAKER_02: quote,
1:05:17
SPEAKER_02: told us that it was the wrong time to support the event because there was a war
1:05:21
SPEAKER_02: going on over there.
1:05:23
SPEAKER_02: And the library contends that this was taken out of context.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_02: So they're saying that like someone misrepresented the conversation, right?
1:05:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:05:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: they don't give any names and they're obviously not going to accuse a former
1:05:53
SPEAKER_02: employee of lying.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_02: But to me,
1:05:56
SPEAKER_02: the implication is that,
1:05:57
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
1:05:57
SPEAKER_02: someone misrepresented what went down and Wednesday Journal published it.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_02: And after Swansea's position was eliminated and she declined the reassignment,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_02: she was active on Facebook and in talking to the local paper,
1:06:10
SPEAKER_02: basically disparaging the library at any chance she got.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_02: I reached out to her.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: I didn't hear back.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_02: The library was not the only people taking issue with the Wednesday Journal's reporting on this.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: So there's a Substack newsletter called Stack Thoughts.
1:06:26
SPEAKER_02: The author of that is herself a former librarian.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_02: Her name's Kelly Jensen.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_02: And she did a ton of research to figure out what was actually going on here,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_02: although I think she missed a lot of the behind the scenes HR stuff.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_02: And
1:06:36
SPEAKER_02: She's been very critical of the Wednesday Journal's reporting and basically feels
1:06:40
SPEAKER_02: like they're elevating these,
1:06:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:06:42
SPEAKER_02: bad faith,
1:06:43
SPEAKER_02: overblown,
1:06:44
SPEAKER_02: uninformed complaints about the library and the executive director from both former staff,
1:06:49
SPEAKER_02: disgruntled former staff in the community.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_02: And after looking to this, I think she's right.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
1:06:54
SPEAKER_02: the Wednesday Journal was so focused on this Palestinian festival that they missed
1:06:57
SPEAKER_02: so much of the actual story about this HR shit.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_02: And they just got some basic shit really wrong.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_02: Like Jensen points this out in her newsletter.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_02: The Wednesday Journal posted an article after Bowling Dixon apologized,
1:07:10
SPEAKER_02: and it contained this line about the Palestinian event.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_02: Dixon said that the library liaison for the event,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_02: Wanta Griffin,
1:07:17
SPEAKER_02: told her that this event was not a collaborative program.
1:07:20
SPEAKER_02: However,
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: an email between the two women appears to show that Griffin clearly explains the
1:07:24
SPEAKER_02: collaboration among groups at the library.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_02: And then right beside that,
1:07:28
SPEAKER_02: in the paper,
1:07:29
SPEAKER_02: they post a screenshot of the email that Wanta Griffin wrote to her bosses that you
1:07:34
SPEAKER_02: read at the beginning.
1:07:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the last line of that is, it is not a library event.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_00: However,
1:07:38
SPEAKER_00: we do offer basic library support to these community members,
1:07:41
SPEAKER_00: which is very weird to include the collaboration part,
1:07:44
SPEAKER_00: but it is not a library event,
1:07:46
SPEAKER_00: which could not be more explicit.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_02: They posted the entire thing in full on their website.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_02: And the email directly contradicts what the paper is saying about the email.
1:07:57
SPEAKER_02: Very strange.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: Very sloppy.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_02: So Kelly Jensen, this substacker, she's very much on Bolling-Dixon's side.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_02: And librarians have been passing her article around to show that Jocelyn Bolling-Dixon got screwed.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_02: And I reached out to Kelly to ask if she had any prior relationship with the
1:08:12
SPEAKER_02: library or with Jocelyn Bolling-Dixon.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_02: And she responded to me and said no,
1:08:17
SPEAKER_02: other than she did a panel on censorship at the library and Bowling Dixon was there.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_02: And I had a few follow up questions for her.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_02: But when I went to respond, I realized she blocked me.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_02: It was very strange.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_02: Like I wrote her a nice note about her piece and she blocked me.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_02: So I assume she hates podcasters.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_02: Anyway.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_02: During all this drama, a group called Freedom to Thrive Oak Park published a letter of their own.
1:08:40
SPEAKER_02: That's also been taken offline and I couldn't find an archive.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to read you from Kelly's post about it.
1:08:45
SPEAKER_02: Quote,
1:08:45
SPEAKER_02: the letter,
1:08:46
SPEAKER_02: signed by a little over 100 people and dated March 10th,
1:08:49
SPEAKER_02: listed a series of demands from the group to the board.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_02: Among them are claims that the position eliminations were done as threats.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_02: that staff members felt disrespect,
1:08:58
SPEAKER_02: fear,
1:08:59
SPEAKER_02: and distrust in the library,
1:09:00
SPEAKER_02: that the Palestinian event was poorly managed,
1:09:03
SPEAKER_02: and that it was inappropriate to use public funds and the OPPL public website to
1:09:07
SPEAKER_02: promote a personal and political opinions falsely represented as facts at Fact Checker.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_02: And the Wednesday Journal also published quotes from that letter,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_02: including this one,
1:09:17
SPEAKER_02: quote,
1:09:18
SPEAKER_02: if the leadership had appreciated and engaged in restorative practices,
1:09:22
SPEAKER_02: the situation might have escalated.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_02: If only we had more peace circles.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_02: We are now at a point beyond repair.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: Again,
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: this is about an event that went down well at a library that has put so much energy
1:09:34
SPEAKER_02: into DEI that they have 23 staffers trained in peace circles.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: This is so weird.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is just bizarre.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_00: Just the level of outrage over nothing.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: It's such a strange story.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_02: It gets weirder.
1:09:48
SPEAKER_02: So the board members,
1:09:49
SPEAKER_02: some of whom have ties to these couple of disgruntled employees and to these
1:09:54
SPEAKER_02: Facebook groups,
1:09:55
SPEAKER_02: took all of this very seriously.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_02: And on March 14th, they asked Jocelyn Bolling Dixon to resign.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_02: She refused.
1:10:03
SPEAKER_02: For what?
1:10:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't even get it.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_02: They hadn't given her any kind of performance improvement plan or anything like that.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_02: And she's like, no, you can't just fire me.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_02: So the board held a special meeting to vote to fire her.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_02: But because it's a board meeting, it has to be open and announced to the public in advance.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_02: And so dozens of people showed up to support Bowling Dixon,
1:10:21
SPEAKER_02: including staff members,
1:10:22
SPEAKER_02: as well as librarians and leaders from other area libraries.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_02: So the Wednesday Journal, as Kelly Jensen points out,
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: They covered this, but they sort of buried all the support that Jocelyn received and who it was from.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_02: So like they quote someone that they refer to as a commentator and Oak Park
1:10:40
SPEAKER_02: resident who supported Dixon,
1:10:42
SPEAKER_02: but they didn't name her or mention that this was the executive director of the
1:10:45
SPEAKER_02: Public Library Association.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_02: Seems relevant.
1:10:49
SPEAKER_00: This is bad journalism, yeah.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, the board did not vote to fire her at that meeting, but they held another meeting on March 16th.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_02: Now,
1:10:57
SPEAKER_02: Kelly Jensen,
1:10:58
SPEAKER_02: the sub-sacker,
1:10:59
SPEAKER_02: she says that the board violated the Open Meetings Act by changing the agenda for
1:11:03
SPEAKER_02: the meeting less than 48 hours before it was held.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_02: But regardless, they did hold a meeting.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_02: It was over two hours long, and they voted to fire Jocelyn Bowling-Dixon.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_02: And they did this before the public comment, which is a pretty backwards way of doing it,
1:11:17
SPEAKER_02: And then when they actually did open it up for public comment,
1:11:19
SPEAKER_02: the vast majority of the commenters were on Jocelyn's side.
1:11:23
SPEAKER_02: So the end result of all of this is that Jocelyn Bowling Dixon,
1:11:27
SPEAKER_02: the perfect candidate,
1:11:28
SPEAKER_02: she had the degree,
1:11:29
SPEAKER_02: the experience,
1:11:30
SPEAKER_02: the ties to the community,
1:11:31
SPEAKER_02: the support of her colleagues,
1:11:32
SPEAKER_02: and the right skin color.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_02: She was fired.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: And now the residents of Oak Park and the board of the Oak Park Public Library can
1:11:40
SPEAKER_02: rest well knowing that they ousted a well-liked executive director for the crime of...
1:11:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm not even sure.
1:11:48
SPEAKER_02: Like, the event was good.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_02: The staff was happy.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_00: It's so strange.
1:11:52
SPEAKER_00: It's a witch hunt.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_02: It's a witch hunt.
1:11:55
SPEAKER_02: And I may be missing something here,
1:11:56
SPEAKER_02: but it seems to me like what happened is that a small number of disgruntled
1:12:01
SPEAKER_02: employees used the Palestinian event to mobilize a bunch of anti-racist activist
1:12:07
SPEAKER_02: types to campaign against their boss.
1:12:10
SPEAKER_02: Because unlike the old white guy who used to run the place,
1:12:12
SPEAKER_02: she wasn't afraid of being called racist for enforcing the rules.
1:12:16
SPEAKER_02: And then...
1:12:18
SPEAKER_02: You know, the good progressive anti-racist folk park who are basically being manipulated here.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_02: They blew this whole thing out of proportion,
1:12:24
SPEAKER_02: forcing the board to respond,
1:12:26
SPEAKER_02: at which point the board fires the popular black lady in the name of anti-racism.
1:12:31
SPEAKER_02: And that is social justice.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh, my God.
1:12:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, someone should hire Jocelyn.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_00: Should we get a staff librarian?
1:12:38
SPEAKER_02: You know, she will get another job.
1:12:41
SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of demand for her services.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_02: She's an experienced black leader in a field that is desperate to diversify.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_02: And she has the support of librarians all over the country.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_02: She's going to land on her feet.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_00: What a bizarre story, Katie.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you got to wonder with something like this.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:12:57
SPEAKER_00: not that this was big enough to get local news coverage,
1:13:00
SPEAKER_00: but if there'd been like competent local news coverage,
1:13:02
SPEAKER_00: just like setting the record straight on certain things early on.
1:13:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm romanticizing the role of journalism,
1:13:06
SPEAKER_00: but it's just this crazy rumor mongering and that woman just emailing over and over
1:13:12
SPEAKER_00: to get her fired.
1:13:13
SPEAKER_00: It's just ugly.
1:13:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm curious why the Wednesday Journal did such a half-ass job covering this.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it really was not hard for me to find sources here.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't hard for me to get records.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_02: And the actual story is a lot more interesting than just like, yeah, racist black woman.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_00: Anti-Palestinian.
1:13:33
SPEAKER_00: Something, something.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_02: Right.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, Jesse, any questions?
1:13:37
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, yeah, it's a lot, but none that you can answer.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: Why are people so crazy?
1:13:42
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, Katie.
1:13:43
SPEAKER_00: That was insane and infuriating.
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: This has been Blocked and Reported.
1:13:47
SPEAKER_00: As always, we are produced with help from Jessica, the 80s baby.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_01: Trace helped on this one too.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: Trace helped on this one too.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: Bye, Trace.
1:13:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm Jesse Single.
1:13:55
SPEAKER_00: And remember, the only thing that can stop a bad librarian is a good librarian.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Katie Herzog.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_02: And also remember,
1:14:02
SPEAKER_02: if this podcast fails,
1:14:04
SPEAKER_02: we're going to pivot to 100% articles about how to suck your own dick.