Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 1-3) (5/15/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 1-3) (5/15/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to continue our
• 0:07
  look at some of the unsealed files, and this time
• 0:11
  we're going to dive into a sworn statement given by
• 0:16
  Michael Thomas, one of the guards who was on duty
• 0:20
  the night Epstein died. So the person asking the questions
• 0:24
  is somebody from the OIG's office, and the person that's
• 0:29
  doing the answering is Michael Thomas. So they swear them
• 0:33
  in and then the questioning starts. Question, Thank you all.
• 0:38
  Mister Thomas. You're here today as a subject in this
• 0:42
  DOJ OIG investigation. This DOJ investigation concerns your alleged misconduct
• 0:49
  to include allegations of false statements, job performance failure, security failure,
• 0:54
  and reporting false information. This is an official DOJ OIG investigation,
• 1:00
  and you're being asked to voluntarily provide answers to our questions.
• 1:04
  Will you agree to a voluntary interview with the DOJOIG,
• 1:09
  mister Thomas, Yes, redacted question, Thank you, sir. Now, we
• 1:14
  have a form here for your employer, for our employees
• 1:17
  who provide voluntary answers to our questions. It's the US
• 1:21
  Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General Warnings and
• 1:25
  Assurances to employee requested to provide information on a voluntary basis.
• 1:31
  It says you're being asked to provide information as part
• 1:34
  of an investigation being conducted by the Office of the
• 1:37
  Inspector General. This investigation is being conducted pursuant to the
• 1:42
  Inspector General Act of nineteen seventy eight as amended. This
• 1:46
  investigation pertains to your alleged false statements, job performance failure,
• 1:52
  security failure, and reporting false information. This is a voluntary interview. Accordingly,
• 1:58
  you do not have to answer question. No disciplinary action
• 2:02
  will be taken against you if you choose not to
• 2:04
  answer questions. Any statement you furnish may be used as
• 2:08
  evidence in any future criminal proceeding or agency proceedings, disciplinary
• 2:13
  proceedings or both. And obviously we have the DPA. Then
• 2:18
  there's a waiver section. I understand the warnings and assurance
• 2:21
  is stated above, and I'm willing to make a statement
• 2:24
  and answer the questions. No promises or threats have been
• 2:27
  made to me, and no pressure or coercion of any
• 2:31
  kind has been used against me. If you want to
• 2:34
  take a look or anybody the attorney or anybody wants
• 2:37
  to take a look. That was red verbatim. But if
• 2:40
  you agree, there's a section that says employee signature and
• 2:43
  then you can just print your name, mister adacted. Just
• 2:46
  print your name right there. Thank you, mister Thomas for signing.
• 2:51
  I'm going to sign as the signature of the Officer
• 2:54
  of the Inspector General Special agent. Again, this is my redacted,
• 2:58
  and I'm going to print my name, special agent redacted.
• 3:01
  Can you sign as the signature of witness redacted? This
• 3:05
  is special agent redacted. I'm signing a signature of witness question.
• 3:12
  Thank you, sir, Special agent. Can you just fill in
• 3:15
  the date and time and then write in the place
• 3:18
  so the date is again six seventeen, twenty twenty one,
• 3:21
  and the time is ten eleven am. Thank you. Okay,
• 3:25
  And since there's a union representative present, I have a
• 3:28
  form for you as well if you just want to
• 3:30
  take a look and review that. I'm not going to
• 3:33
  read that out loud for the record, redacted. I've read
• 3:37
  them many times, redacted. You don't need indiscernible all that.
• 3:43
  Thank you, mister adacted for signing. Where you said that
• 3:47
  you certify that you appeared as an official OIG investigative
• 3:52
  interview as a union representative and was provided a copy
• 3:56
  of this advisory and signing it and dating it. I'm
• 3:59
  going to sign where it says name of OIG special Agent.
• 4:03
  It actually doesn't ask for my signature, so I will
• 4:06
  first print and then sign next to it. I'm dating it.
• 4:09
  Six seventeen, twenty twenty one. Redacted. Mister Mitchell, is someone
• 4:13
  on the line? Mitchell? Well, I was just setting up
• 4:17
  a conference so mister Figgins could dial in. No one's there. Oh, okay,
• 4:22
  is he going to be dialing in, mister Mitchell, Yeah,
• 4:24
  he's going to join us shortly. Okay, question from redacted.
• 4:30
  So shortly, Attorney Montell Figgins will be dialing in. All right,
• 4:34
  So did you understand the OIG form, mister Thomas. Mister Thomas, yes,
• 4:40
  I did, redacted? Great, thank you. Before starting, I would
• 4:45
  like to place you under oath. Can you raise your
• 4:47
  right hand please, mister Thomas. Do you swear to tell
• 4:49
  the truth and nothing but the truth during this interview?
• 4:53
  Mister Thomas, yes, I do, redacted. Thank you, sir. If
• 4:58
  there's anything that you don't understand or any kind of questions,
• 5:01
  please just ask me, and I surely will Thomas the
• 5:06
  language where if I don't understand, I will say something redacted.
• 5:11
  Question perfect, thank you sir. All right, So what's your
• 5:14
  current address, mister Thomas, Keez of b New Jersey redacted?
• 5:19
  Thank you, sir. And what's your day of birth? Give
• 5:21
  the date of birth redacted? Do you happen to have
• 5:24
  any kind of ID on you? Just so we know
• 5:27
  we're talking to the right person. Okay, I'm looking at
• 5:30
  a New Jersey auto driver's license with a name on
• 5:33
  it as Michael A. Thomas, and the picture does match
• 5:36
  the person sitting in front of me. Okay, what's your
• 5:39
  highest level of education, mister Thomas? Some college? I completed
• 5:43
  high school? Question? Okay, how much college did you have,
• 5:48
  mister Thomas? I couldn't add to a little bit. Correspondence
• 5:52
  courses when I was in the military and everything like that.
• 5:56
  Redacted question. Okay, So was there like a course study,
• 6:01
  mister Thomas? No question, No, just required Thomas. No, just
• 6:06
  like basic courses and stuff like that. Question and around
• 6:11
  when was that mister Thomas? Two thousand and two, two
• 6:14
  thousand and one, I'm thinking here and there? Question? Sure?
• 6:18
  Was it all from one institution. Mister Thomas. It was
• 6:21
  some online courses and stuff like that that I took.
• 6:26
  Question okay, cool, while you were with the military. Answer yeah,
• 6:30
  by mister Thomas. Yeah, while I was in the military.
• 6:33
  It was all done while I was in the military.
• 6:36
  Question perfect, And what did you do prior to working
• 6:40
  with the BOP mister Thomas, I was at target back room?
• 6:47
  Question okay? And how long did you do that? Thomas?
• 6:51
  I did that for three months before I got this
• 6:53
  job here. Question So it was primarily the military previously Thomas. Yeah,
• 6:59
  I got out of the military and six and then
• 7:01
  I started this in seven. Question great, thank you question,
• 7:09
  thank you for your service. When were you in the military,
• 7:12
  mister Thomas, I went in in ninety eight to two
• 7:15
  thousand and six. Question and what branch? Answer? Army? Question
• 7:21
  army Thomas answer active duty the whole time? Question and
• 7:26
  when you sorry? Okay, So where the attorney is getting
• 7:31
  on the phone with mister Higgins and with the army.
• 7:34
  When you got out of the army, what was your rank,
• 7:36
  mister Thomas? E four? Question E four? Sergeant? Is that sergeant? Answer? No,
• 7:44
  that's a specialist. Question that's a specialist. Thomas uh huh.
• 7:48
  Question Okay, what was your he gets caught off by
• 7:51
  mister Thomas, highest rank attainable E five question? Okay, so
• 7:57
  you got to E five and then came back down
• 7:59
  to E four mister Thomas. Uh huh question? Was it
• 8:04
  honorary discharge? Thomas? General discharge under honorable conditions? Mister adacted? Question? Okay, great?
• 8:12
  And when you were in the army, was it that
• 8:15
  you were my mos Thomas thirteen. Bravo? Okay Thomas, Sorry
• 8:20
  if I answered that no, no, please, I was trying
• 8:23
  to figure out the word to use, mister Thomas ms redacted, okay, perfect.
• 8:29
  And how long have you served with the Federal Bureau
• 8:32
  of Prisons mister Thomas as of April first, fourteen years.
• 8:37
  Question fourteen years. And what was your enter on duty date,
• 8:42
  mister Thomas, April first, two thousand and seven. Question okay?
• 8:47
  And when did you graduate from BOP training? Thomas. I
• 8:51
  don't know the exact date. Question, but you did attend Thomas.
• 8:56
  It's usually a year of probationary or something like that. Oh,
• 9:00
  you're talking about training at fle etc. Question at fl etc. Correct,
• 9:06
  So the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, mister Thomas November
• 9:11
  of seven. Question okay, and that was for correctional officer training.
• 9:17
  Answer yes, question perfect, sir. And when and where was
• 9:21
  your first assignment with the BOP? Thomas, My whole career
• 9:26
  has been at MCC redacted. Okay, that makes it easy.
• 9:30
  And what positions have you held while you were there?
• 9:33
  Just briefly, Thomas, correctional officer and material handler specialist redacted?
• 9:40
  Just those two Thomas, yeah, question okay. And what does
• 9:45
  material handler specialists do? What does that mean? Thomas? It's
• 9:50
  a commissary trust fund. It's the trust fund and the BOP.
• 9:55
  Question okay, does that mean that you handle he gets
• 9:58
  cut off. Thomas. You deal with differ from positions from laundry, commissary,
• 10:02
  backroom supply and that's mainly yeah, that's mainly it. Question
• 10:07
  And what was your grade level? Thomas? WS four step
• 10:11
  five I guess question? Okay? What's your current cell phone number?
• 10:19
  Thomas answers question perfect, And we won't contact you, We'll
• 10:23
  go through your attorney. But it's just a question we
• 10:26
  ask and your current email address? He gives up that question,
• 10:31
  thank you, sir. And when did you last work at
• 10:33
  the MCC physically present, mister Thomas on August tenth, twenty nineteen. Question,
• 10:41
  and did you work both on August ninth and August tenth,
• 10:44
  twenty nineteen, mister Thomas. Yes, question okay, And that was
• 10:49
  in the shoe from twelve am to eight am on
• 10:53
  both days, mister Thomas, on both days? What do you mean? Oh? Yes, yes, yes,
• 10:57
  so on August ninth, midnight to eight am, then again
• 11:00
  August tenth, eight am or twelve am to eight am.
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  And was that in the special housing unit mister Thomas, yes, question,
• 11:11
  also known as the shoe. Who was your supervisor when
• 11:14
  you last worked at the MCC or did you have
• 11:17
  one in particular? Mister Thomas, My supervisor was misredacted? Question? Great,
• 11:26
  thank you? So just briefly overall that training would you
• 11:30
  attend while so, I know you said that you did
• 11:32
  COO training down at fl etc. But what other training
• 11:37
  would you conduct while you're with the BOP mister Thomas
• 11:42
  that I would conduct? Question? Yeah? Like what training were
• 11:45
  you provided when you were with the BOP? Like annual
• 11:48
  training Thomas? Yeah, annual training. Annual training that's usually done
• 11:53
  sometime well, it lasts from January to sometimes March, from
• 11:58
  what I can remember, but that's annual training aa RT.
• 12:02
  I think it's called question annual refresher training. Thomas, Yeah,
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  there you go. Question okay, great. Is there any other
• 12:11
  training that they would provide mister Thomas. Question like, did
• 12:17
  you ever attend like shoe quarterly training or anything like that?
• 12:21
  Mister Thomas. I have when I was off, So yeah,
• 12:24
  I've done shoe quarterly training. Question okay, so would you
• 12:28
  do the annual training every year? Thomas? Annual training is
• 12:33
  every year? Yes. Question and what would be the last
• 12:36
  time you think you conducted shoe training shoe quarterly training.
• 12:41
  Answer I really couldn't remember. Question No, that's fine, all right.
• 12:46
  This is actually your training record. Do you just I'm
• 12:49
  not going to ask you to like certify that these
• 12:52
  things are, you know, it's just to look at and
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  if you say, for the most part, does that look
• 12:57
  like the training that you conducted? It shows from the
• 13:01
  most recent to uh through the past. Question, this is
• 13:07
  just like your training record. We ask like, hey, can
• 13:10
  we put the BP employees' training record. They print something
• 13:13
  like this out which just shows that like on these
• 13:16
  dates were the dates that you completed training. So it
• 13:19
  looks like that you completed the last annual Refresher Training
• 13:23
  on four or five, which this is the Annual Refresher
• 13:27
  Training course syllabus. This is the sign and cheat. So
• 13:31
  I believe that would be the last time that you
• 13:33
  conducted your annual refresher training and like for instance, I
• 13:37
  believe that would be your name and would be that
• 13:40
  your signature next to it. Thomas, Yes, question, okay, great,
• 13:44
  So just point being the last time you did conduct
• 13:48
  annual refresher training in April of twenty nineteen. Thomas, Uh huh.
• 13:54
  All right. So we're going to wrap up right here,
• 13:56
  and in the next episode we're going to dive back
• 13:58
  in and pick up where we left off. All of
• 14:01
  the information that goes with this episode can be found
• 14:04
  in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to
• 14:08
  another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
• 14:12
  going to pick up where we left off with the
• 14:15
  deposition of Michael Thomas, one of two guards who were
• 14:18
  charged in the aftermath of Epstein's death. Question. Awesome, anytime
• 14:26
  I provide you something, I'm just going to ask you
• 14:28
  to initial and date it so that there is no
• 14:32
  confusion of what actually was provided to you and what
• 14:35
  you actually looked at and it's not certifying to the
• 14:39
  accuracy of this, it's just certifying that this is what
• 14:42
  I showed you, Thomas, any particular place question up top
• 14:48
  would be great, Thomas Signer initial question. Just initial in date.
• 14:53
  So again it's six seventeen, twenty one. So I'm going
• 14:56
  to take that this is not supposed to be connected.
• 14:59
  I'm going to te just your training records out of this,
• 15:03
  because they've got a lot of your daily assignments in
• 15:05
  here and stuff. Thomas, okay. Question. This was all supposed
• 15:10
  to be attached to that, so that you'll see is
• 15:13
  just so that we're on the same page. Is just
• 15:15
  all the way from two thousand and seven up to
• 15:18
  eight nine, twenty nineteen, mister Mitchell. And when you say training,
• 15:23
  these were actual classes redacted question. It's just what they
• 15:29
  have in the BOP system. Every time he conducts a training,
• 15:32
  they log it and so they can keep a record
• 15:35
  of what training individuals conducted. Mister Thomas. Okay. Question. And
• 15:40
  for this, the main point for this was that again
• 15:43
  you did take that annual refresher training in April of
• 15:46
  twenty nineteen. Any questions on that, mister Thomas, No question,
• 15:52
  Any concerns Thomas, Nope. Question great, thank you sir. Can
• 15:57
  you just kind of go through and find your deli schedule?
• 16:00
  There we go, his roster would be in there, all right,
• 16:04
  and that the annual refresher training, Like just roughly, what
• 16:08
  do you recall that you had learned there, mister Thomas.
• 16:12
  It's a bunch of different classes. Question like ethics, correct Thomas.
• 16:18
  It goes from somebody speaking to somebody who put in
• 16:20
  something up on the teleprompter and then you're reading off.
• 16:24
  It's a variety of classes depending on how the instructor
• 16:27
  at the time would present the class. Question. Okay, great,
• 16:31
  let me see just to bring us back to this,
• 16:34
  it looks like the way that the BOP system this
• 16:37
  report that I just showed you, it looks like on
• 16:40
  four or five, there's a ton of different classes, and
• 16:43
  that just looks like probably what the annual refresher training covered.
• 16:47
  It would be like ethics, infectious disease, international security, key control, airspray,
• 16:53
  prison rate report writing, self defense, weapons of mass destruction.
• 16:59
  Mister Tom. Yeah, but at different times, Thomas, there are
• 17:03
  a bunch of different classes. Question perfect, Yeah, awesome, And
• 17:07
  did they ever at the MCC did they ever provide
• 17:10
  you with like post orders and things like that. Thomas, Yeah,
• 17:15
  post orders. Question, post orders and there are guidance and
• 17:19
  policies and things Thomas, yeah. Question okay, awesome. Is there
• 17:23
  something that when they provided you, did they say to
• 17:26
  you that you had to review them or they just
• 17:29
  give them to you? How does that work? Mister Thomas.
• 17:32
  They're posted on every housing unit redacted. They're all so
• 17:36
  when you go to housing units, the orders are actually
• 17:38
  in there. Thomas. No, they're in a book redacted. They're
• 17:43
  in a book, Thomas, one of the books redacted. Okay.
• 17:47
  And do they ask you to like review them or
• 17:51
  how I'm just wondering how MCC goes about it. What
• 17:54
  do they do with making sure they're correctional officers, know
• 17:57
  what the policies and procedures are and they're in institutions Thomas.
• 18:02
  You have to sign them when you're supposed to sign
• 18:05
  them when you go to a post question. Okay, So like,
• 18:09
  if for instance, he gets cut off by Thomas, it's
• 18:13
  in your own to review them and everything like that
• 18:17
  question I got you. So have you ever been provided,
• 18:20
  reviewed and signed the special housing unit orders? Thomas? Yes?
• 18:25
  Question Okay, do you a member. Would that be like
• 18:28
  every time you're in there, or would it be like
• 18:30
  the initial time? How does it work, Thomas? If I'm
• 18:34
  not mistaken, I think it's just to whenever you go
• 18:37
  in there. The one time you go in there, he
• 18:40
  gets cut off. Question So like the first time, Thomas,
• 18:44
  every quarter you have to if I'm not mistaken, you
• 18:47
  have to sign it? Question all right, Thomas, every quarter?
• 18:51
  So like if you go in there between February and April,
• 18:55
  the first initial time you go in there, you sign it,
• 18:58
  and that was it. It's not something you sign every
• 19:01
  day redacted? Right, But like, for instance, in twenty nineteen,
• 19:06
  would you have been provided it and had to sign it? Thomas? Yeah?
• 19:12
  Question okay Thomas, it definitely had to be in there somewhere.
• 19:16
  Question And you did it? Thomas, I'm sure. I don't know. Question,
• 19:21
  But you have been provided Thomas cuts them off. I
• 19:24
  signed them before, Yes, but I don't know. Question. Sure,
• 19:28
  no problem. What is the BOP or MCC policy on
• 19:32
  conducting counts and rounds? Just broadly speaking, what's your like
• 19:36
  sentence or two? Thomas? My interpretation of it? Question your
• 19:41
  understanding of let's start with rounds. What are you supposed
• 19:45
  to do with rounds at the MCC and we can
• 19:49
  even move it directly to the special housing unit, so
• 19:52
  we don't get confused. Thomas, uh huh redacted in the
• 19:56
  special housing unit. How are you supposed to conduct a round? Thomas?
• 20:00
  You're supposed to conduct the rounds every thirty minutes, not
• 20:04
  at the same time, but roughly about every thirty minutes. Question.
• 20:09
  So it's every thirty minutes, Thomas, not every thirty minutes
• 20:13
  on the hour or anything like that. He gets cut off,
• 20:16
  So like a thirty to forty minute gap, there's like
• 20:19
  a ten minute I guess window that you're supposed to
• 20:21
  conduct it within every thirty minutes. Is that right, Thomas,
• 20:26
  It's not exactly he gets cut off eight eight thirty nine. Thomas. Yeah,
• 20:32
  it's not exactly eight or eight thirty just every thirty minutes.
• 20:35
  So if you go at one twenty two question, sure, Thomas,
• 20:40
  you should go at some time between one fifty two
• 20:42
  or whatever the case may be. It's just every thirty minutes. Question.
• 20:48
  And is that for the whole twenty four hour day
• 20:50
  thirty minutes, every thirty minutes Thomas, Yeah, for every twenty
• 20:54
  four hours question? Okay, so there's no like, you don't
• 20:58
  have to do it from this time to that time. Thomas. No,
• 21:01
  it's for a twenty four hour day. Question And how
• 21:04
  do you conduct around? What are you supposed to do
• 21:07
  when you conduct around in the shoe Thomas? It depends
• 21:11
  on what time period redacted? Can you just explain that
• 21:15
  a little bit, Thomas? Well, if you just walk around
• 21:19
  and look in the glass? Question, are you supposed to
• 21:23
  be able to see a person and make sure that
• 21:25
  they're in there? Thomas, You're supposed to see a person
• 21:28
  and make sure they're there? Question? And alive and well Thomas,
• 21:33
  see human flesh and everything like that, yes, question okay,
• 21:38
  that they're not in distress or they need anything Thomas,
• 21:44
  under distress? Yes, question okay. And what is account to
• 21:47
  your understanding, a cell count or an inmate account in
• 21:51
  the special housing unit? Thomas, an institution account? Question? No,
• 21:58
  So when you're working in this special housing unit, do
• 22:01
  you not have to do account on the weekdays from
• 22:04
  four pm ten pm, twelve am, three am five am. Thomas,
• 22:08
  you're doing the institution count the standard it's bop count.
• 22:12
  It's an institution count. Well, I phrase it as an
• 22:15
  institution count. Question. So, when you're in the shoe, how
• 22:20
  do you conduct account Thomas, same way you do around.
• 22:25
  So you just walk around, verify live tissue and everything
• 22:29
  like that, and you see a person question and you're
• 22:32
  supposed to count the number this time though, so as
• 22:36
  opposed to just going in around, I'm assuming you don't
• 22:39
  actually call out the numbers and certify a certain number.
• 22:42
  You just go through and make sure that everybody's okay
• 22:46
  with account that you have to he gets cut off
• 22:48
  by Thomas an account, You call out the numbers, and
• 22:51
  then around you just verify redacted. Okay. And then what
• 22:56
  do you do after you get the numbers in the
• 22:58
  special housing unit? Thomas? Tally it up, put it on
• 23:01
  a piece of paper. Question okay, like a count slip Thomas,
• 23:07
  the count slip, get time on the count slips? Question okay, great?
• 23:12
  And where you provided training on conducting rounds and counts
• 23:15
  at MCC Thomas, yeah, question okay, when would you receive
• 23:21
  that training during the annual refresher training annual shoe training
• 23:25
  Thomas annuals Yes, annual refresher training and shoe training either
• 23:30
  or question okay, So any other training that would provide
• 23:34
  you on that or they would have the two primary times.
• 23:38
  You get that, Thomas, that's the two primary times. Question. Okay,
• 23:43
  during your time at the MCC, how often would you
• 23:46
  be assigned to the special housing unit Thomas? It depends
• 23:50
  if it was for overtime. Well, besides then just well
• 23:54
  assigned to just assigned for overtime. Question, So whenever you
• 23:59
  would conduct over time, you would be there, mister Thomas, Well,
• 24:03
  if it was open and that's what was open. Yeah,
• 24:05
  that's what it would be. Question Since two thousand and
• 24:09
  seven through twenty nineteen, did you do it fairly regularly? Thomas?
• 24:15
  Fairly regularly? I mean question, so you're pretty familiar with it, Thomas.
• 24:21
  I'm familiar with both from two thousand and seven. I
• 24:24
  haven't been a correctional officer that whole time redacted. Sure,
• 24:28
  question I was, if I'm not mistaken, I got the
• 24:31
  material handler position in twenty ten or twenty twelve, something
• 24:36
  in between that timeframe. Question. So, I guess from two
• 24:40
  thousand and seven from the time you would do it
• 24:43
  as like as a quarterly posted bid. Thomas, Oh, I
• 24:47
  never did it. I can't recall ever doing it. I've
• 24:50
  done the shoe more than a few times. Question. Yeah, Thomas,
• 24:54
  Uh huh. Question. So point being is you're familiar with
• 24:58
  the way that the shoe is operated. Thomas, Yeah, I'm
• 25:02
  familiar with how everything goes in the shoe. Question all right, awesome, So,
• 25:07
  aside from doing the counts and rounds, what other training
• 25:10
  would they provide you in order to make sure that
• 25:12
  you were prepared to work in the shoe. Would they
• 25:15
  provide like suicide prevention training, things like that, Thomas, If
• 25:19
  I'm not mistaken, that's on the art. If I'm not mistaken,
• 25:23
  that's on the art. Question suicide is on the art Thomas, Yeah,
• 25:28
  it's one of the courses in art. Question Okay, what
• 25:33
  is the course in art? I'm sorry, I'm just trying
• 25:36
  to Thomas. I really couldn't tell you the exact name
• 25:39
  of the course or anything like that. Question. What you're
• 25:42
  saying is art has a shoe course. Is that what
• 25:45
  you're saying? Thomas, Yeah, it has. No I'm saying it
• 25:49
  has what you just said, a suicide prevention course. I'm
• 25:53
  sure it's something like that in art. Question Oh okay,
• 25:57
  But I was trying to use suicide prevention as like
• 25:59
  an a example of training that you received to be able
• 26:02
  to work in the shoe. What I'm asking is like
• 26:05
  to make sure, I could say, Thomas cuts them off. No,
• 26:09
  I don't think that's an actual course to work in
• 26:11
  the shoe, to work specifically with the shoe. It's just
• 26:15
  an actual course that they provide at ART. It's not
• 26:18
  specific to just one housing unit. It's just an annual refresher.
• 26:23
  Question that's specific suicide. So I guess what I'm asking
• 26:27
  is what training did they provide to you to make
• 26:30
  sure you could work in the shoe. Let's put it
• 26:32
  this way, during the shoe quarterly training? What type of
• 26:35
  training would they provide to you, mister Thomas, I really
• 26:39
  don't remember at all. Question you don't remember, Thomas, I
• 26:42
  don't remember often. Question. No, that's totally fine, Thomas, just
• 26:47
  regular shoe training. Question. But you have received the suicide
• 26:52
  prevention training though, at the mcc annual refresher training Thomas
• 26:57
  at ART. Question okay, and what, just very briefly, what
• 27:01
  types of things would they teach you at suicide prevention training? Thomas,
• 27:07
  I'm trying. It's just training. Like, I don't what's specific
• 27:11
  about the training? Question? Sure, Thomas, they tell you how
• 27:16
  it happens. Each year or in a quarter or something
• 27:19
  like that. I remember that they tell you cases about
• 27:22
  people committed suicide. Sometimes it signs to watch for suicide.
• 27:27
  That's basically all I can remember with that. I don't
• 27:29
  remember the training exactly. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap
• 27:32
  up right here, and in the next episode dealing with
• 27:34
  the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.
• 27:38
  All of the information that goes with this episode can
• 27:40
  be found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and
• 27:44
  welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode,
• 27:48
  we're gonna pick up where we left off with the
• 27:51
  jail guard Michael Thomas and his deposition with the OIG inspectors. Question. Sure,
• 28:00
  that's fine, now, as you said, you work from twelve
• 28:03
  am to eight am on both August ninth and August tenth.
• 28:06
  Correct in the shoe, mister Thomas, Well it's August tenth,
• 28:10
  I think, if I'm not mistaken. Question, but August ninth
• 28:15
  and August tenth, you did eight am. He got cut
• 28:18
  off by mister Thomas. No question. I'm sorry, I mean
• 28:23
  twelve am to eight am on both days, Thomas, No,
• 28:27
  not both days. See this really has me confused. If
• 28:31
  let's say the shift started at twelve, Usually the shift
• 28:35
  starts at one question correct answer. So if I came in,
• 28:41
  I came in on the ninth, but the shift didn't
• 28:43
  start until midnight. It's from midnight to eight in the morning.
• 28:48
  Question right, So what I'm saying is midnight on August ninth, Thomas,
• 28:53
  which is August tenth. Question you probably got there on
• 28:57
  August eighth, Thomas, No, No, I didn't worry. Question. So
• 29:01
  here's your daily assignment roster. I just want to make sure.
• 29:04
  So August tenth, August ninth, it says that you were
• 29:07
  in the shoe on both days. Thomas. Okay, so he
• 29:11
  gets cut off. I thought we talked about that earlier.
• 29:13
  I just wanted to make sure, so at the start
• 29:15
  of the interview we talked about Thomas cuts them off. Okay,
• 29:19
  So I did show. I didn't recall that I did
• 29:22
  show two days in a row. Question right, Thomas. Okay, question,
• 29:28
  so I don't think you kind of called out maybe
• 29:30
  the two days leading up, but you still did your
• 29:32
  overtime shift, Thomas. These are all overtime shifts for me. Question. Yeah,
• 29:38
  I know. Answer. None of this is regular shift for me.
• 29:41
  This is all overtime for me? Question? Okay, great, So
• 29:45
  just the point being, I just wanted to make sure
• 29:48
  you did work on both August ninth and August tenth
• 29:52
  from the midnight to eight am shift. Thomas, Yeah, okay, yes,
• 29:56
  question awesome. Just because I presented this to you, do
• 29:59
  you do you mind just initially and dating it? Does
• 30:02
  that appear to be your daily schedule for it looks
• 30:05
  like it started back on June twenty ninth, twenty nineteen,
• 30:09
  until August tenth, twenty nineteen. Thomas, Yeah, this is not
• 30:13
  a daily schedule for me. This is all overtime. As
• 30:16
  you can see, it's all overtime. Question. Sorry, the daily
• 30:21
  assignment for overtime Thomas, for overtime, yeah, question, they're all
• 30:26
  your overtime shifts, Thomas, This is not daily. This is
• 30:30
  all overtime. Question And as you mentioned, that's why it
• 30:34
  says the number of times in there where it's the
• 30:37
  shoe Thomas, it's the shoe and internal mostly question right,
• 30:42
  because there were overtime shifts working in the shoe. Thank
• 30:46
  you for your clarification, and what are your overall duties
• 30:49
  and responsibilities when you're assigned to the shoe Thomas, maintain
• 30:53
  the count of inmates, make sure the inmates are fed,
• 30:56
  depending on the shift you're referring to take over a shift,
• 30:59
  make sure they get their showers, make sure they're counted.
• 31:02
  And that's basically it. Question Okay, And are there any
• 31:07
  special requirements for inmates who are assigned to the shoe? Thomas,
• 31:11
  Not that I know of, no question. So are inmates
• 31:14
  that are assigned to the shoe unless they have some
• 31:16
  classification where they could be hurt by another cell mate?
• 31:19
  Are they all supposed to have cell mates? Thomas, classification? Like,
• 31:23
  I don't know if they still some If I can
• 31:26
  recall some of the cell and wreck alone, maybe they
• 31:30
  were in a fight and they what's it called when
• 31:33
  they keep away from all other inmates. But other than that,
• 31:36
  some could be cell wrecked alone. Question. So, for the
• 31:40
  most part, I should say, are inmates in the shoe
• 31:43
  supposed to have a cell mate? Thomas, I don't know. Question.
• 31:47
  My understanding was that they're all supposed to have a
• 31:49
  cell mate unless they meet some kind of criteria, like
• 31:52
  there are a certain type of inmate who would be
• 31:54
  harmed by another cell mate? Is that correct answer? I
• 31:58
  don't know. Question you're not sure, Thomas, I'm not sure.
• 32:02
  Question fair enough, no problem. Have you ever received training
• 32:05
  for medical emergencies with inmates? Answer in the art? Question
• 32:10
  in art? Thomas, yeah. Question were you also an instructor?
• 32:15
  Thomas No, I've never instructed. Question You've never been an instructor,
• 32:20
  never like CPR instructor or anything like that. Thomas, No, No,
• 32:25
  I'm not a CPR instructor. Question okay, all right, So
• 32:29
  for medical emergencies, the art is pretty much when they
• 32:32
  cover that. Do they cover that also during shoe training?
• 32:36
  Medical emergencies for like inmates? Thomas, I don't recall. No,
• 32:40
  I don't think so. Question you're not sure Thomas, I
• 32:43
  don't think so. Question like you got an annual training Thomas,
• 32:49
  the annual training? Question? All right? Who is or was
• 32:53
  inmate Jeffrey Epstein Thomas an inmate at MCC. Question Okay,
• 32:58
  do you recall when Epstein was housed at MCC. Does
• 33:01
  July sixth, twenty nineteen through August tenth, twenty nineteen sound familiar? Thomas,
• 33:08
  I don't remember when he first got there, But I
• 33:10
  don't remember when exactly he first got there redacted? So
• 33:15
  these we just this is just the overtime roster. When
• 33:19
  it looks like you were assigned to the shoe pretty
• 33:22
  regularly from seven eleven, twenty nineteen to a ten, twenty nineteen, Thomas,
• 33:28
  Uh huh. Question when you were there, was he in
• 33:31
  the shoe? Thomas? Yeah, question, okay, I'm assuming not the
• 33:37
  whole time, Thomas. Not he gets caught off redacted because
• 33:42
  I think he was on suicide watch, But when you
• 33:45
  were there, he was you know him from being in
• 33:49
  the shoe though, mister Thomas, Yeah, I've seen him before
• 33:52
  in the shoe. Yeah, absolutely, question okay, perfect. Do you
• 33:56
  know why Epstein was assigned to the shoe Thomas? No, No,
• 34:00
  they ever told you why, Thomas, No question? Okay. Was
• 34:04
  it high profile for suicide safety concerns anything like that, Thomas.
• 34:09
  It could have been a number of reasons that his
• 34:12
  case was high profile, whatever the case may be. Question okay.
• 34:17
  And was Epstein assigned to the shoe on both August
• 34:19
  ninth and August tenth, twenty nineteen, mister Thomas, yes, question okay,
• 34:25
  And we kind of just covered this, but do you
• 34:27
  know how long he was assigned to the shoe? Again,
• 34:31
  I believe it was July and August aside from those
• 34:33
  time frames, correct, Thomas, I really don't know. Question. That's fine.
• 34:38
  What was Epstein's routine while he was assigned at the shoe,
• 34:42
  mister Thomas, I don't know, question. Because you did the
• 34:45
  overnight shift, I can understand that. So are you aware
• 34:49
  that like during the day he would meet with his
• 34:51
  attorneys every day and then he would be from basically
• 34:55
  eight am until like seven pm or eight pm he
• 34:58
  was meeting with his lawyers. Thomas, I honestly really don't know. Question.
• 35:05
  You don't even know. So when you worked at the shoe,
• 35:07
  was it always at twelve am to eight am shift
• 35:11
  in the shoe? Thomas? Well, I mean, I'm sure I
• 35:14
  have some evening watch ones. I don't know if I
• 35:16
  have some evening watch or not, but I'm sure I've
• 35:19
  done evening watch or anything like that. But I didn't
• 35:22
  look exactly at it. Maybe that's all morning watch. This
• 35:25
  is all morning watch question? So these like for July
• 35:29
  and August, Thomas, it's all yeah, this is all morning
• 35:32
  watch question, so they would all be from twelve am Thomas, Yeah,
• 35:37
  that's all twelve am redacted. And how is that identified
• 35:42
  as that? Thomas? Oh? Right, here where you see MW
• 35:46
  is for a morning watch, They say DW is for
• 35:49
  day watch. Question okay, Thomas, but it's all morning question,
• 35:54
  so all morning watch while Epstein was assigned to the
• 35:57
  shoe Thomas, yeah. Question okay, cool. Now, did you ever
• 36:02
  have any communication with Epstein during his stay at the
• 36:06
  mcc Thomas one particular time? Question can you tell me
• 36:11
  about that particular time? Thomas, He was on Suicide Watch
• 36:15
  and I was watching him on Suicide Watch. Question, Oh,
• 36:18
  you actually watched them when he was on Suicide Watch? Thomas, yeah.
• 36:22
  Question all right, Not while you were in the shoe though, Thomas. No,
• 36:26
  not while I was in the shoe. Question all right,
• 36:30
  when you were watching him? Was that a positive or
• 36:33
  negative experience? Answer? I can't label it under a positive
• 36:37
  or negative. It was just watching him. Question like, were
• 36:41
  his interactions with you were they like Thomas cuts them off. Oh,
• 36:46
  he spoke with me and everything like that. Question was
• 36:50
  he pleasant? Answer? Yeah? He was pleasant. He wasn't mean
• 36:53
  or anything like that. He was really incoherent where he
• 36:56
  was at. But other than that, he was just fine.
• 36:59
  He just sat there and talk with me until I mean,
• 37:02
  the whole six hours. Question Okay, and do you remember
• 37:06
  around when that took place? Mister Thomas, I really can't recall. Question.
• 37:12
  Could have that have been? Does it say it on
• 37:15
  this Actually it does on this thing it says suicide Watch.
• 37:18
  Would it be on seven twenty three, twenty nineteen, Thomas?
• 37:23
  That could have been his That could have been the one? Question? Okay,
• 37:27
  So on seven twenty three, twenty nineteen, I believe he
• 37:30
  had an incident within his cell and you're familiar with
• 37:33
  so when you were watching him on suicide Watch? Do
• 37:36
  you know why he was there? Thomas? Oh for suicide Watch? Question? Yeah,
• 37:41
  did you hear that he tried to take his life? Thomas? Yeah,
• 37:44
  I've heard that. As you can see, it was internal
• 37:46
  that day. Question Okay, Thomas, Internal you just go up
• 37:51
  and you count all the housing units and everything like that,
• 37:54
  and I guess he tried to commit suicide. And we
• 37:56
  brought him down to the suicide room and I sat
• 37:59
  there and I watched him. I don't know what six hours,
• 38:01
  seven hours whatever it is. Question, But prior to them
• 38:05
  sitting down or even after, did they inform you why
• 38:09
  you was there? Thomas? Well, it's suicide Watch. It's pretty
• 38:12
  self explanatory. Question but they didn't provide you details Thomas. No,
• 38:19
  just if you're there on suicide watch, it's kind of
• 38:22
  self explanatory. But if you go depending, suicide watch is
• 38:26
  one thing, an observation watch is another. But if it
• 38:29
  says suicide watch, I'm sure he was on suicide watch
• 38:32
  because he was in a smock and he gets cut off.
• 38:35
  What does the smock mean, Thomas, It's just a cover
• 38:39
  that you put over, so you don't have any clothes
• 38:41
  or anything like that. Question Okay, Is it so they
• 38:44
  can't harm themselves? Thomas, Yeah, so they don't harm themselves.
• 38:49
  Question okay. And you were the only individual on that
• 38:52
  observing them during suicide watch Thomas, Yeah, I was the
• 38:55
  only one watching at that time. Redacted. And you said
• 38:59
  they're there's a difference between suicide watch and psychological observation.
• 39:04
  What's the difference, Thomas, Well, psychological observation, you have your
• 39:08
  clothes redacted. Okay, But I mean as far as you
• 39:12
  as a CEO, Thomas, there's no difference. You're still watching them.
• 39:16
  There's no difference. Question Okay, Thomas, you're still just watching them.
• 39:20
  In suicide in observation, you just have clothes and suicide
• 39:24
  watch you're in a smock and a blanket question. Okay,
• 39:29
  And did you receive any instruction with regard to Epstein
• 39:32
  when he was assigned to the shoe Thomas, no redacted
• 39:36
  specific de Abstein Thomas, no question. And are you aware
• 39:41
  that Epstein was assigned any cellmate when he was assigned
• 39:44
  to the shoe? Thomas, I'm sure he was. Maybe he was.
• 39:47
  I don't really recall question. So you don't recall if
• 39:51
  he had a cell mat Thomas. I know one time
• 39:54
  he had a cell mate. I don't recall, like if
• 39:56
  he was assigned a specific cell mate or not. Okay,
• 40:01
  all right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and
• 40:03
  then the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna
• 40:06
  pick up where we left off. All of the information
• 40:09
  that goes with this episode can be found in the
• 40:12
  description box.