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Daddy Darren Needs Help & Divorcin' Dawn · Therapy Thursday with Ellen K

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I think that we can regress under times of stress,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: so we start thinking more like a kid rather than
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: an adult if they're under a lot of stress.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: From the ending of these relates, see Sarah, I love regression. Yeah,
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: so welcome to another great edition of Therapy Thursday, where
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: we tackle your troubles. I'm Ellen Ki, I'm.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Ryan Manoch, and I'm Sarah Dash.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: And Sarah, you have letters after your name because you
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: are a licensed therapist. What are those letters and what
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: do they mean?
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: The l MFT stands for Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: L l m f T LMFT. Okay, licensed marriage and
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: family therapist. You know, I never knew that. I just
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: knew you had licenses. And Sarah Dash our licensed therapist
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: here to you know, respond to all of the talkbacks,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: the letters, all the stuff we get from you. So
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: many different issues that people deal with every day. And
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: that's why whenever I get frustrated on the road, if
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: someone's driving crazy or someone's like, you know, rude in
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: a line somewhere, I always think, we have no idea
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: what another person's going through. No, we don't.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: They could have just had a fight with their boss,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: they could have just lost their job.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: You never know, Yeah, you never know it. And I
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  Speaker 2: think that's really important for all of us to always
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: keep in mind, especially in a big city, well really anywhere.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: But you just never know what that person is going through. No,
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  Speaker 2: And I always wonder, like, do you ever drive buy
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  Speaker 2: houses guys and think what is that person that lives
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  Speaker 2: behind that gate?
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  Speaker 1: Do?
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  Speaker 2: All the time? All the time? You know.
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  Speaker 3: When that started for me when I was a paper
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  Speaker 3: I was delivered. I was a paper blow and I
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: was so curious about each one of their homes and
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  Speaker 3: their lives, you know, and that curiosity, I think is
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  Speaker 3: a good thing.
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  Speaker 2: I do too. There's a giant home on Sunset Boulevard
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  Speaker 2: that I drive by a lot when I'm just cutting
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  Speaker 2: through town, and I was like, I really wonder what
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: that is, so I googled it. It's Phil Collins House.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so you know what be going on?
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Right, There's probably a studio, a lot of singing and music.
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  Speaker 2: But I think that's really cool. And so yeah, so
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: we we never know as people what another is going through,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: but we hear from you and we love it and
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: we love to bring Sarah in and do this podcast
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: so that we can you know, tackle these problems and
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: then you never know, maybe you're going through the same thing.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: We got this one from a dad. His name is
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  Speaker 2: Darren Eileen.
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  Speaker 4: Good morning, Hi Sarah. I could use some help here.
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  Speaker 4: I'm a dad. I've got five kids. They're all grown up.
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  Speaker 4: Two of them have had really horrible relationships with their
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  Speaker 4: partners or whatever. They've come back. They're adults. They're living
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: here now, and I'm happy they're here, but it costs
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: a fortune to have everybody under one roof, and nobody's
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  Speaker 4: even asking me if they can help out financially. I
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: want to communicate with them. I love them and I'm
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: going to try to be there for them, but at
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  Speaker 4: this point they're adults, and I just want to figure
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  Speaker 4: out a way to ask them, could they please also
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: help support themselves. I feel really bad about this, but
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  Speaker 4: I just I don't know what to do for Darren.
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  Speaker 2: Do you see a lot of this in your practice.
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  Speaker 1: I do see some of this in my practice, and
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  Speaker 1: it's what I'm hearing is that this relationship has shifted
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  Speaker 1: from love to one of obligation and adult relationships parents
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  Speaker 1: and children. What you hope happens is there's going to
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  Speaker 1: be this really beautiful metamorphosis into reciprocity, mutuality, and sometimes
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  Speaker 1: boundaries need to be renegotiated.
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  Speaker 3: Oh is it as simple as just calling a family
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  Speaker 3: meeting and saying, guys, I love you, but we need
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  Speaker 3: to talk. We just have to have a talk. And
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  Speaker 3: it might be hard for him to even bring up
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  Speaker 3: but is that the best way?
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  Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely the best way. I think that
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  Speaker 1: in those conversations, he's going to want to lead with
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  Speaker 1: love and affection, not blame accusations. It looks like I
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  Speaker 1: really love you, I love having you in the house.
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  Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to leave, but I can't sustainably
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  Speaker 1: manage the financial obligations that I find myself under.
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  Speaker 2: It. And why do you suppose two out of the
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  Speaker 2: five who moved back in with Daddy Darren, why do
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  Speaker 2: you suppose they're not thinking, wow, I should help that,
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  Speaker 2: like he's letting me stay under his roof. It's unfortunate
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  Speaker 2: what happened. It's not like a failure to lunch. They had,
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  Speaker 2: their relationships didn't work out. Now they're back. But why
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  Speaker 2: aren't they thinking instead of this is my safe haven.
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  Speaker 2: I should be helping out and pitching in.
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  Speaker 1: What happens is that people will mistake generosity for limitless capacity.
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  Speaker 1: And this happens all the time. It happens in friendships,
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  Speaker 1: family relationships. Someone's very generous and the person to whom
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  Speaker 1: the generosity is being extended thinks it's limitless capacity. They
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: may very well not see him for who he is
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  Speaker 1: at this time in his life.
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  Speaker 3: See I wonder too how far this goes back. It
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  Speaker 3: could be that Darren brought them up in such a
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  Speaker 3: way that they never really wanted for much, and they
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  Speaker 3: never really viewed their dad as someone they had to
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  Speaker 3: kind of you know, I.
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  Speaker 1: Help, possibly right, And it's also I mean, I'm not
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  Speaker 1: in any way saying this is his fault, but as
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  Speaker 1: the father, he probably did hold himself out as the
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  Speaker 1: provider the caretaker, which is completely appropriate when someone is ten,
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  Speaker 1: but not necessarily job.
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  Speaker 2: Is different from ten. But don't we always forever into
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  Speaker 2: adulthood look at our dads or our father figures as
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  Speaker 2: the strong. I'm going to lean on you. You are
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  Speaker 2: my compet I know that. You know, up until the
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  Speaker 2: day my dad died, which was not that long ago,
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  Speaker 2: I called him about everything and he gives such good
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  Speaker 2: advice and I I don't know like, if I would
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  Speaker 2: have moved back in with him, I wonder, well I
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: would have helped I would have helped him.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you would have done that. Now That's happened
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  Speaker 3: to me twice in my life, my adult life, I've
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  Speaker 3: had to move back in just temporarily, Like I'm talking
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  Speaker 3: months at a time, either between houses or in moves
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  Speaker 3: or whatever, after failed relationships. But I came into it
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  Speaker 3: with the I'm gonna buy dinner on two nights a week.
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  Speaker 3: I'm gonna whatever that I'll pay, like the internet bill
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  Speaker 3: or you know whatever, Like you go into it offering, yes, exactly.
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  Speaker 3: I think a decent person does.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would think also, if you're you're a
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  Speaker 2: grateful person, you know that you don't have to go
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: get some lonely apartment somewhere.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: Or these two, these two that have moved back in
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  Speaker 2: with Daddy Darren, they could have found their own place
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  Speaker 2: together instead of just leaning on Ded. But I think
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: sometimes when we're going through a hard thing, we want
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  Speaker 2: the strength of our dad.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: And sometimes I think that we can regress under times
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: of stress, so we start thinking more like a kid
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: rather than an adult. If they're under a lot of stress,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: from the ending of these relations.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: See Sarah, I love regression. Yeah so I and I
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  Speaker 2: think that, you know, had I had the opportunity regression,
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  Speaker 2: I do like I would love to go home and
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  Speaker 2: just be babied, you know, and not have a care
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  Speaker 2: in the world and just you know, have my laundry done,
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  Speaker 2: and dad and mom take care of me like a
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  Speaker 2: little baby. You know. There were a couple of times
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  Speaker 2: where I wanted to run home after I had left
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  Speaker 2: home and I would call them crying. You know, I'm lonely,
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  Speaker 2: I don't like this job, I don't like where I'm living,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know to do, I'm out of money, and
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  Speaker 2: I really I flirted with it a couple of times.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't do it, but I almost did. How did
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  Speaker 2: they respond? Ellen were always here for you. My mom
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  Speaker 2: was the one who said, you need to stick this
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  Speaker 2: out because she knew that it was only making me stronger, it.
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  Speaker 1: Was making you stronger. I think that's actually a huge
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  Speaker 1: compliment that adults pay their adult children, is the fate
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  Speaker 1: that they can take care of themselves.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hm oh yeah, I know. She was always like,
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  Speaker 2: she's you can do this, you can get through this,
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  Speaker 2: you know, just hang in there. I'm only a phone
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  Speaker 2: call away. It was always I'm only a phone call away.
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  Speaker 2: I will come out and see you if I need
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  Speaker 2: to ride. Your mom flew out here when you really
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  Speaker 2: need oh god, ye as an adult. And so that
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  Speaker 2: seems like the way to handle Darren doesn't have that
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  Speaker 2: luxury because they live here with him and now they're back, right,
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  Speaker 2: and even.
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  Speaker 3: If it's not financial, maybe there are things they can
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  Speaker 3: do around the house, whether it's cleaning or you know,
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  Speaker 3: taking care of the landscaping or you know, going to
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  Speaker 3: pick things up that their dad needs, like errands, could
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  Speaker 3: even be a big help.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, and I think that they can absolutely do those things.
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  Speaker 1: There does need to be a step toward financial independence
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  Speaker 1: and he needs to see that and that is completely appropriate.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, because how long Sarah does some I mean, if
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  Speaker 3: you're encouraging them that that's okay, Like what's your motivation
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  Speaker 3: to then leave and get out away from him?
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's where I blame Darren. It's really his fault. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: he's just allowing them to trample all over him.
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  Speaker 1: He hasn't stated at a boundary, and that's why this
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  Speaker 1: relationship hasn't shifted from what it was when they were children.
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  Speaker 1: He hasn't stated at the boundary.
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  Speaker 2: Can I hear a little of his voice again? I
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: think we can hear clues in his voice.
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  Speaker 4: He sounds like a Hi, Sarah, I could use some
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  Speaker 4: help here. I'm a dub. I've got five kids. They're
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  Speaker 4: all grown up. Two of them have had really horrible
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  Speaker 4: relationships with their partners or whatever. They've come back. They're adults.
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  Speaker 4: They're living here now, and I'm happy they're here, but
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  Speaker 4: it costs of fortune to have everybody under one roof,
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  Speaker 4: and nobody's even asking me if they can help out financially.
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  Speaker 4: I want to communicate with them. I love them and
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: I'm always going to try to be there for them,
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  Speaker 4: but at this point, they're adults, and I just want
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  Speaker 4: to figure out a way to ask them, could they
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  Speaker 4: please also help support themselves. It's I feel really bad
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  Speaker 4: about this, but I just I don't know what to do.
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  Speaker 1: I think he's afraid of rupturing the relationship by setting
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: a boundary, okay, which it's actually doing the opposite, because
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of strain in the relationship.
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  Speaker 1: It's going to move from a loving, warm relationship to
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  Speaker 1: one of of a strained situation.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: And could we go back in time to when they
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: were children, and maybe that's when the boundaries were never set.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe Darren has let his kids grow up. Now there's
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: only two out of five. I don't know what the
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  Speaker 2: other three are. Of two, but maybe he's let them
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  Speaker 2: grow up without boundaries, babying them, never never taking a stand,
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  Speaker 2: and never saying no to them. And maybe that's why
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  Speaker 2: they're back. Just like I said before, I don't know
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  Speaker 2: if trample is the right word, but they're totally just
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  Speaker 2: using him and he's letting them.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Thank god, we have a real therapist who puts it gently.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: He would be like, they're trampling on Darren.
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  Speaker 2: You're a fool.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like Darren.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: You're timid, you're afraid, you're not being a leader, and
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  Speaker 2: you're not really being a dad. You're being a big
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  Speaker 2: whimp about it.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: It's an opportunity for him to lead by example in
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: terms of setting boundaries. He wants these women to be
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: able to set boundaries in their future relationships, so he
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  Speaker 1: needs to set that example.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Could Darren be the cause of their failed relationships? Oh
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: oh there.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question. What they saw growing up
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  Speaker 1: likely does play into their current relationships, but I'm not
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: going to blame him for their lack of awareness or
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: ability to take responsibility.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: You go ahead, Sarah. Sarah's always so nice but also
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: so professional, and you are you, You are the pro.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: This is this is the one part that he needs
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  Speaker 3: help with. And I just want to say, and I'm
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: going to say what I would do, okay.
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  Speaker 4: And I just want to figure out a way to
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  Speaker 4: ask them, could they please also help support themselves?
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  Speaker 3: Okay? Got it, Darren?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Do this?
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Hey, can you also figure out a way to support yourselves?
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: Not hard? You just said it. I say it again
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: to them, all.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Right, Sarah dash is here therapy Thursday. We're talking about Dona.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Donna's been divorced three times. All right, So she hired
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: a matchmaker. I don't know, Ryan, have you ever been
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: matched by a matchmaker a professional.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: A friend? But I did have a matchmaker who owns
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: a service reach out, you know, before my relationship, said hey,
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: I'd love to have you on my site.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Really yeah, wait, you never told us this.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: And it was for only men and then the women
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: get to choose, right, it's.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: The only features I need decline.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I've never done an app I would never do in
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: my person, I would never do this ever.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: But we could dangle that man o, little mano piece
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: of meat down there.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, But what if I don't say little
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: oh oh wow?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: You never did? You kept that one for me?
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Ryan's the carrot.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I couldn't do it. I've only out of that been
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: matched up once though by a friend. And it was
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: so it went so poorly.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, I know it did. It went poorly. It was
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: doomed from the start. It was you know what, it
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: started a ball of flames. It was so incendiary, so hot,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: so fast that that I think that do you set
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: the expectation with that that every time? Like even if
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: you're just random Sunday morning getting coffee, then everything's got
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: to be like a fireball.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Interesting. So it was just tremendous chemistry with this, you know.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: Let's get to dawn. Okay, we'll come back to me
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: at some point.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: I want to think about that though. I want to
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: do not tremendous chemistry, but definite chemistry. Okay, I think
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: the kind that makes the lab explode. Yes, Like if
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: it were a meth house, it would be one of
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: those you know that you read about on the news,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: and you know this one exploded and there's a fire, and.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: Then it's at It's like the four houses on the
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: both sides on fires catches the whole block.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Right, Ryan, I'd like to explore this further with you.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd have to pay you for that one. Here's done.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:11
  Speaker 5: I've been spending all this money on matchmakers and they're
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: either too tall, too short, too skinny, too fat, too hairy,
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: not enough hair, whatever it may be. Am I being
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: too picky? I have been married three times already.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's divorcing Don. Now you are Sarah dash LMFs.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: That is a licensed marriage and family therapist therapist. Oh
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: it's a tea not anss. Sorry, but you are Sarah
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: dash LMFT. So that's licensed marriage and family therapist. Yes,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: so you've probably seen people like Don before who are
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: never happy.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because she's self reporting, basically that she's
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: too picky. She's saying that this person has not enough hair,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: this person has too much hair, too tall, too short, whatever.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I'm really curious about the fact that she has been
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: married three times so she can find what she deems
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: to be an acceptable partner, it's not never happened.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: So three times there was someone who checked her.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Box absolutely, I mean like really checked her boxes, checkter
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: boxes enough to walk down the aisle.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Could it have been Maybe it was a rich guy
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: and the money, the money overshadowed the personal shortages that
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: she sees. Sometimes.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Well, you never know what makes somebody take God, what
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: would it be their story? It's like they have this
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: therefore this doesn't matter as much. And I mean it
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: could be money, it could be looks, it could.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Be the ocean.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, you never know what works for somebody.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: But maybe because she had these three marriages which didn't
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: work out, she's very afraid of making another mistake. And
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: maybe seeing you know, too tall, too short is a
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: type of self protection at this point, and she could
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: be really frightened of having another what she considers to
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: be a failed marriage. When somebody tells me they've had
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of marriages, I think it actually says a
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: lot of very positive things.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, wait so but how is that possible?
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: If the marriage is ended and it wasn't death or
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: something like that, then that's a failed marriage. But why
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: would that also be successful.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: When somebody is willing to walk down the aisle more
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: than once, more than twice. They tend to be really optimistic. Oh,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: they have a willingness to commit, they form attachments, and
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: they also have a capacity to walk away when it's
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: not working. These are not necessarily bad things at all.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: I see that it's important that she or others not
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: kind of hold that as evidence that something's wrong with her.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: At what point? And maybe there isn't a number that
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: we can assign to this, but at what point does
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: one stop being so picky? I'll give you an example.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: We were out with a couple friends a couple of
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: weeks ago, and we'll call her Lauren. We said, Lauren,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: you should talk to this guy, and she was like,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: oh my god, no, I can't with his facial hair.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, and I that to me seems like fear.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: All she wants is somebody like That's all she's focused on.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: And we're like, okay, how about this. Nope, not good
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: facial Okay, you can change facial hair. Just go go
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: say hi to them. See what happens.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I agree with Ellen.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I think that it's fear.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: It's a fear of rejection. Reject them before they can
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: reject her.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but then why the fixation and the focus that
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: never really seems to end on finding somebody.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Because it's a it's a conflict. It's an internal conflict
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: of wanting something but then being afraid of being rejected. Okay,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: there's an internal battle going on between those two states.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: So with don we don't know three divorces, it doesn't
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: mean she initiated them. So maybe she was dumped three
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: times and that would lead to a lot of fear,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: like it's not the guy that's too harry or whatever
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: she said, it's her that she's not enough or that
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: she is afraid to get her heart broken again.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Well, I think you bring up something really important is
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: that if somebody is being picky, I don't have a
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: problem with that if they excel in the same areas
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: that they expect somebody else to excel in. Okay, if education,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: level of education is super important to me, it's kind
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: of hard for that to work out if I dropped.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Out of the eighth grade, right right, right? You know,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: So if I'm.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: A doctor and for me to want somebody with an education,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: it's a reasonable expectation if I take good care of myself.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I'm attractive for me to want an attractive partner.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: That makes sense.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: It's when people want things and are looking for qualities
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: which they themselves don't possess that people start talking about
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: being realistic.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: And by the way, I would love to hear what
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: these guys have to say about don't
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: True