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"Trump Without the Handcuffs.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:24
Speaker 1: On today's show, the world awaits for a Manhattan jury
0:27
Speaker 1: to indict Donald Trump. Strict Scrutiny's Leah Lipman joins to
0:30
Speaker 1: break down the strength of Alvin Bragg's case, and Tiny
0:34
Speaker 1: D pokes Trump as he continues to shrink in the polls.
0:40
Speaker 1: Speaking of, speaking of, the trailer has dropped for an
0:44
Speaker 1: exciting new eight-part series from Crooked and iHeartRadio called Stiffed,
0:49
Speaker 1: which is about the rise and fall of Viva, the
0:52
Speaker 1: erotic magazine for women, started by Porn King publisher Bob
0:56
Speaker 1: Guccione in 1973. Host Jennifer Romolini takes you on a
1:00
Speaker 1: wild ride through the story that rocked the publishing world.
1:03
Speaker 1: With a team of feminist writers and editors behind it,
1:06
Speaker 1: Viva had full frontal male nudity, Dan. That's penises. Just
1:13
Speaker 1: so you know. A fashion section run by Anna Wintour
1:16
Speaker 1: and cover stars like Bianca Jagger. But were they doomed
1:20
Speaker 1: to fail from the beginning? Trailer is out now. First
1:24
Speaker 1: episode drops March 30th. This is a really fun, great series.
1:29
Speaker 1: So excited for everyone to check it out. Listen on
1:31
Speaker 1: all the podcast platforms. I got a lot of dick
1:34
Speaker 1: jokes in just in the housekeeping, Dan.
1:36
Speaker 2: Look, I read the housekeeping this morning. I said an
1:38
Speaker 2: over under in my head of how far you would
1:40
Speaker 2: get through it before you started cracking up. And you
1:43
Speaker 2: beat the over by far. You did a great job.
1:44
Speaker 2: You're a true podcast professional.
1:46
Speaker 1: Okay, good, good. All right, let's get to the news.
1:49
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard, but it seems like
1:52
Speaker 1: Donald Trump may have gotten himself into a bit of
1:55
Speaker 1: a pickle. We are all patiently waiting for a grand
2:01
Speaker 1: jury in Manhattan to indict the twice impeached frontrunner for
2:04
Speaker 1: the Republican nomination on criminal charges for paying hush money
2:08
Speaker 1: to porn star Stormy Daniels. The jury met on Monday,
2:12
Speaker 1: but we learned today, Thursday, that they won't be meeting
2:15
Speaker 1: again until next week for some unspecified reason, which means
2:19
Speaker 1: that next week is the earliest an indictment could come.
2:22
Speaker 1: But already, according to the New York Times, Trump has
2:24
Speaker 1: been preparing for his likely arrest by telling people he
2:28
Speaker 1: is excited about a potential perp walk and even mused
2:31
Speaker 1: about whether he should smile for the cameras. Meanwhile, without
2:35
Speaker 1: knowing any details about the potential charges or evidence against Trump,
2:39
Speaker 1: House Republicans are threatening to investigate Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg,
2:44
Speaker 1: while the paid liars over at Fox are coming up
2:47
Speaker 1: with some pretty creative defenses of their guy.
2:50
Speaker 3: He represents 74 million Americans. And if he's the nominee,
2:56
Speaker 3: you're putting 74 million votes in prison.
3:00
Speaker 4: Settlements like this, whatever you think of them, are common,
3:03
Speaker 4: both among famous people, celebrities, and in corporate America. In
3:07
Speaker 4: this case, you can believe whatever side you want to believe,
3:09
Speaker 4: but paying people not to talk about things, hush money,
3:13
Speaker 4: is ordinary in modern America.
3:16
Speaker 3: There's no proof Trump slept with Stormy.
3:17
Speaker 1: There's no baby.
3:19
Speaker 2: And Trump didn't use campaign funds.
3:21
Speaker 1: There's no crime here.
3:23
Speaker 3: The only potential crime here, Mark, is that Donald Trump
3:26
Speaker 3: was an extortion victim. on a bookkeeping charge. He put
3:32
Speaker 3: a payment to a woman in the legal column. That
3:35
Speaker 3: was in the wrong column. Hillary put the dossier in
3:38
Speaker 3: the same column and.
3:39
Speaker 1: She got a fine. I think this is all gonna
3:42
Speaker 1: blow over because I don't see any way that they're
3:45
Speaker 1: actually gonna get Donald Trump to appear for indictment or
3:49
Speaker 1: any type of charge.
3:50
Speaker 3: If you're gonna arrest a president, there better be a
3:53
Speaker 3: dead body or a suitcase.
3:55
Speaker 2: Full of cash.
3:56
Speaker 3: Or as Kilmeade says, a suitcase.
3:57
Speaker 5: Full of dead bodies.
3:58
Speaker 1: That's it. That's the new standard. A suitcase full of
4:01
Speaker 1: dead bodies is the only way that Trump could actually
4:07
Speaker 1: justifiably be charged with anything.
4:10
Speaker 2: Is that a thing that Kilmeade says? What's the context
4:14
Speaker 2: for that?
4:16
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Dan, who among us hasn't paid
4:19
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars to silence the porn star
4:23
Speaker 1: we had an affair with In order to win a
4:26
Speaker 1: presidential election. And if they can come after Donald Trump
4:29
Speaker 1: for that, they can come after you for that too, Dan.
4:34
Speaker 6: Great.
4:34
Speaker 1: That's where we are. So you wisely suggested that before
4:37
Speaker 1: we dive into the politics, we take a step back
4:40
Speaker 1: and talk about the moment we're in right now. The
4:44
Speaker 1: frontrunner for the Republican nomination for president is on the
4:48
Speaker 1: cusp of being charged with a felony. And not only
4:51
Speaker 1: is he staying in the race, most of the party
4:54
Speaker 1: is sticking with him. despite the possibility that he'll be
4:56
Speaker 1: charged with even more serious crimes that include trying to
5:00
Speaker 1: overturn the last election by sending a violent mob to Congress.
5:04
Speaker 1: Is this where you thought the country would be? We
5:07
Speaker 1: started this show seven years ago.
5:09
Speaker 2: Can we put a pin in the seven years thing?
5:11
Speaker 2: Because I want to have a longer conversation about that someday.
5:15
Speaker 2: We're entering almost our, we're well into our second term.
5:21
Speaker 1: You and me with keeping it 1600.
5:23
Speaker 4: I don't know.
5:23
Speaker 1: Trump's gaining in the polls. I wonder what will happen.
5:27
Speaker 1: Here we are seven years later. This is what's happening.
5:29
Speaker 2: Okay. The serious point here is that the situation you
5:34
Speaker 2: just described about a man under multiple criminal investigations likely
5:38
Speaker 2: to be arrested any day now being the front runner
5:41
Speaker 2: for the Republican nomination and therefore basically a coin flip
5:45
Speaker 2: away from returning to the White House in a couple
5:46
Speaker 2: of years. is the perfect statement about how we got
5:51
Speaker 2: Trump to begin with and that the forces that brought
5:53
Speaker 2: us Trump haven't gone anywhere, that we have this deeply
5:56
Speaker 2: radicalizing Republican Party that exists in a dystopian media environment
6:03
Speaker 2: of propaganda and disinformation with declining trust in institutions, a
6:07
Speaker 2: mainstream media that has been absolutely gutted in terms of
6:11
Speaker 2: its reach and its credibility to be an arbiter of
6:13
Speaker 2: facts and reason and truth. And that the work still
6:17
Speaker 2: goes on. That even if Trump goes to jail at
6:19
Speaker 2: the end of this, even if Ron DeSantis wins this
6:21
Speaker 2: primary or Joe Biden beats both of them, is those
6:23
Speaker 2: forces still exist. They're bigger than Trump. And they're going
6:26
Speaker 2: to be what we ultimately have to confront. And it is,
6:28
Speaker 2: I guess, why seven years later, we're still doing a podcast.
6:31
Speaker 2: I think it's a very small part of this, but
6:34
Speaker 2: I can't get over that fact. That's a lot of years.
6:37
Speaker 1: I mean, we have been hearing for months that that
6:41
Speaker 1: the Republican establishment is finally done with Trump. They don't
6:44
Speaker 1: think they can win with him. They have to move on.
6:47
Speaker 1: Save us, Ron DeSantis. And here's the guy who just
6:52
Speaker 1: lost them the presidency and the midterms about to get
6:55
Speaker 1: arrested for one of potentially many felonies. So naturally, they
7:01
Speaker 1: all took the opportunity to really twist the knife.
7:04
Speaker 3: This is a political witch hunt perpetrated by one of
7:07
Speaker 3: the far left radical socialist district attorneys in Alvin Bragg.
7:11
Speaker 2: There is no limit, no end to the limits they
7:15
Speaker 2: will go to, to go after Donald Trump.
7:18
Speaker 3: I think what happens here is that President Trump will
7:21
Speaker 3: be stronger at the end of the day, but the
7:23
Speaker 3: damage done to the law may last for decades. It
7:27
Speaker 3: almost looks like it's an effort to detract But at
7:30
Speaker 3: the very least, it's another example of two-tier system of justice.
7:33
Speaker 6: I just wrote a book a couple of months ago
7:35
Speaker 6: on exactly this topic. It's called Justice Corrupted, How the
7:38
Speaker 6: Left Has Weaponized the Legal System. I do every week
7:42
Speaker 6: a podcast, Verdict with Ted Cruz. Yesterday's podcast is an
7:46
Speaker 6: hour-long deep dive on the legal issues explaining why the
7:50
Speaker 6: facts of law are utterly bogus.
7:53
Speaker 1: Talk about fucking sanctimonious.
7:56
Speaker 7: I mean.
7:57
Speaker 1: Forget about Ron DeSantis. He's fucking Ted Cruz. I wrote
8:00
Speaker 1: a book and I also host a podcast.
8:03
Speaker 2: I mean, John, just slow your roll there, buddy. It
8:05
Speaker 2: kind of hits close to home.
8:07
Speaker 1: That is not how I preface my takes, by the way.
8:10
Speaker 2: That's exactly how I preface my takes.
8:11
Speaker 1: I just offer them.
8:13
Speaker 2: Well, you got to be out there. Look, this is
8:15
Speaker 2: a competitive content environment. You got to be out there
8:16
Speaker 2: promoting your stuff.
8:18
Speaker 1: What is wrong with these people? Forget about, like, you know,
8:22
Speaker 1: we started with the moral implications of the Republican Party
8:26
Speaker 1: standing by a potential criminal. But just if you do
8:31
Speaker 1: the pure politics, pure politics, and there are a number
8:35
Speaker 1: of Republicans, not all of them, but a number of
8:37
Speaker 1: them who are like, we can't win with Donald Trump.
8:40
Speaker 1: We need Trump's policies without the Trump baggage. This is it.
8:44
Speaker 1: This is your opportunity. Why? What's wrong with them?
8:48
Speaker 2: Because they are craven, cowardly chuckleheads with a strategic sense
8:53
Speaker 2: of plankton. Like they just, they keep doing the same
8:57
Speaker 2: thing over.
8:58
Speaker 1: It's like muscle memory. They're just like, Oh God, something
9:01
Speaker 1: happened to Trump. We gotta, we gotta defend him. We
9:02
Speaker 1: gotta defend him.
9:04
Speaker 2: There is some short term discomfort over moving away from
9:08
Speaker 2: Trump at any moment, right? After the first impeachment, the
9:11
Speaker 2: second impeachment, the access Hollywood, January 6th, the potluck dinner
9:16
Speaker 2: with the Nazis, whatever it is, like at any moment
9:18
Speaker 2: you can do it, but you're going to take some
9:21
Speaker 2: shit in the short term. But they all believe, we
9:23
Speaker 2: know this from reporting, We know this from just common
9:26
Speaker 2: sense that these Republicans believe that Joe Biden is incredibly
9:31
Speaker 2: beatable in 2024. And that Donald Trump, of all the candidates,
9:36
Speaker 2: gives him the least best chance to beat Joe Biden.
9:39
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's an accurate assessment, but that's what
9:41
Speaker 2: they believe. And they want the presidency. But they can't
9:44
Speaker 2: stomach the short-term discomfort of having Sean Hannity yell at
9:48
Speaker 2: you or Tucker Carlson yell at you. Or Charlie Kirk
9:51
Speaker 2: show up at your door or whatever to do the
9:53
Speaker 2: obvious thing. And they made the same mistake over and
9:55
Speaker 2: over again. He's never going to fall under his own weight.
9:58
Speaker 2: You have to. to move away. You have to make a,
10:01
Speaker 2: take a stand and they cannot do it. They will
10:03
Speaker 2: not do it. And every time they don't do it,
10:05
Speaker 2: it gets more difficult to do it the next time.
10:08
Speaker 1: I mean, just to try something out, you know, I'm
10:11
Speaker 1: not going to comment on an ongoing investigation. Nothing has
10:15
Speaker 1: happened yet. And in our justice system, you're innocent until
10:20
Speaker 1: proven guilty. So I continue to stand by Donald Trump
10:23
Speaker 1: until we know anything like that. Even if you are
10:25
Speaker 1: want to if you don't want to get any shit
10:27
Speaker 1: from Trump or the base or the mega media, you
10:31
Speaker 1: could say something like that. But instead, they're like, we
10:34
Speaker 1: are going to we're not just standing by Donald Trump.
10:37
Speaker 1: We're going to investigate a local prosecutor for an indictment
10:41
Speaker 1: that hasn't yet arrived. And we're going to take federal
10:46
Speaker 1: funds away from the Manhattan district attorney's office, the law
10:49
Speaker 1: and order party. We're going to say no Manhattan district
10:52
Speaker 1: attorney because he may go after, he may indict our guy.
10:59
Speaker 1: It's wild.
11:00
Speaker 2: I don't have it in front of me, but did
11:02
Speaker 2: you see the Rand Paul tweet that said something like
11:07
Speaker 2: the prosecution of Donald Trump is one of the greatest
11:08
Speaker 2: abuses of power of all time. The prosecutor should be
11:10
Speaker 2: thrown in jail.
11:11
Speaker 1: Yes.
11:12
Speaker 4: Yes.
11:12
Speaker 8: Yes.
11:14
Speaker 1: It's honestly, it says it all about the Republican Party
11:16
Speaker 1: right there. It's not. And it's not hypocrisy because this
11:19
Speaker 1: is where we get. We've talked about this before. We
11:21
Speaker 1: get into the hip like no one cares about you
11:24
Speaker 1: point out someone's hypocrisy. It is basically just like, no, no, no.
11:27
Speaker 1: We have a different set of rules for us. We
11:30
Speaker 1: get to win all the time. We get to do
11:32
Speaker 1: whatever we want. We are above the law and you're not.
11:37
Speaker 1: Everyone else is it. It's Donald Trump. And those of
11:40
Speaker 1: us who are Donald Trump loyal followers, and then it's
11:42
Speaker 1: everyone else is the enemy, and we can do whatever
11:45
Speaker 1: we want to the enemy. That's it. That's the thought.
11:48
Speaker 1: I know you're going to get into the legal analysis
11:50
Speaker 1: with Leah, but what do we know about what happens next?
11:54
Speaker 1: And just from a political logistic standpoint, like how a
11:59
Speaker 1: criminal defendant runs for president while being tried for a felony?
12:03
Speaker 2: Well, let's start with the logistics. So here's what happens.
12:07
Speaker 2: The grand jury renders an indictment. Donald Trump either gets
12:10
Speaker 2: arrested or he turns himself in, at which point he
12:15
Speaker 2: is stripped naked and he is marched down Sixth Avenue,
12:18
Speaker 2: Game of Thrones style.
12:20
Speaker 1: Now you're just trying to get me excited.
12:22
Speaker 2: Just wait, just wait. And he gets marched down Sixth Avenue,
12:26
Speaker 2: Game of Thrones style, where all of the people who
12:28
Speaker 2: made this happen, the stars of the resistance, get to
12:31
Speaker 2: yell shame at him. You got Mueller, Comey, the Krasensteins,
12:36
Speaker 2: the guys from.
12:36
Speaker 1: The Wicked Project. Fauci is there for some reason.
12:38
Speaker 2: Fauci is there. The, uh, Jim Acosta shows up at
12:42
Speaker 2: the end to shout some questions.
12:43
Speaker 1: They let Michael Avenatti out of House of Rose.
12:46
Speaker 2: There, there is a, I think he's in, I think
12:49
Speaker 2: he's might be in solitary confinement. He's in a real prison.
12:51
Speaker 2: There's a chance we, we might get invited. That's how
12:57
Speaker 2: that works logistically.
12:58
Speaker 1: It's important to be self-aware.
13:00
Speaker 7: Yes.
13:00
Speaker 1: Um, okay. So that's, that's, what's going to happen, huh?
13:03
Speaker 2: What will, what will really happen is what happens to
13:05
Speaker 2: most rich, famous, particularly white people who get, charged and
13:10
Speaker 2: arrested for crimes is there will probably not be a
13:12
Speaker 2: perp walk. It will be handled quietly. TMZ will spend
13:16
Speaker 2: the largest amount of money they've ever spent for a
13:19
Speaker 2: copy of the mugshot, which hopefully they will succeed.
13:22
Speaker 1: Um, and then that mugshot will then, that mugshot will
13:24
Speaker 1: then appear on t-shirts that Donald Trump sells, um, to
13:27
Speaker 1: benefit his campaign and he'll be wearing them forever.
13:30
Speaker 2: And cricket will also sell.
13:33
Speaker 1: Yes. That's it. You heard it. Merch team.
13:37
Speaker 7: Yeah.
13:39
Speaker 1: Got another one.
13:40
Speaker 2: And he's on a flight risk and will just go
13:44
Speaker 2: about his life campaigning for president, attacking the prosecutor who
13:47
Speaker 2: was trying to prosecute him for these crimes.
13:52
Speaker 1: And that's that. And then, I mean, what if, you know,
13:54
Speaker 1: there was a debate scheduled and he's like, I can't
13:56
Speaker 1: get to the debate. I have a court hearing. You
14:00
Speaker 1: do wonder.
14:00
Speaker 5: I'm just wondering.
14:01
Speaker 1: There could be some. And we're just talking about the
14:04
Speaker 1: one felony now. I mean, he could be having multiple trials.
14:08
Speaker 1: He could be telling Alvin Bragg, I can't show up
14:11
Speaker 1: at court today because I got to go down to
14:12
Speaker 1: Fulton County and get a reign there.
14:14
Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, it likely, it presents a set of
14:18
Speaker 2: political complications, which we have talked about and we'll talk about.
14:21
Speaker 2: I mean, it very is like a trial could be
14:23
Speaker 2: going on in the fall of 2024 when he is
14:28
Speaker 2: supposed to be campaigning or on a debate stage or
14:30
Speaker 2: at the convention. I mean, I frankly think that some
14:33
Speaker 2: ambitious young judge should consider him a flight risk and
14:36
Speaker 2: put an ankle monitor on him and keep him imprisoned
14:38
Speaker 2: in Trump Tower for a while.
14:40
Speaker 1: He'd probably like that. Just keep him in Mar-a-Lago. That's
14:43
Speaker 1: where he's been for the last year anyway.
14:44
Speaker 2: Got to keep him in New York State. It's a
14:45
Speaker 2: state crime. Get him out of Florida.
14:46
Speaker 1: All right. So we are obviously out of the prediction business,
14:50
Speaker 1: but I do want to get your take on a
14:51
Speaker 1: few political prognostications. Quote, the prosecutor in New York has
14:56
Speaker 1: done more to help Donald Trump get elected president than
14:58
Speaker 1: any single person in America today. That is South Carolina
15:02
Speaker 1: Senator Lindsey Graham. Here's another one. You are about to
15:06
Speaker 1: increase the odds that Donald Trump will win another four
15:09
Speaker 1: years in the White House dramatically, maybe even decisively. That
15:13
Speaker 1: is disgraced former pundit Mark Halpern. So here's my question
15:17
Speaker 1: for you. How many undecided voters do you think will
15:20
Speaker 1: get off the fence now that they can finally support
15:23
Speaker 1: someone who may be a convicted felon by Election Day?
15:27
Speaker 1: Do you think that's what the swing voters were looking for?
15:29
Speaker 1: They're like, eh. seen Donald Trump since 2016, not sure
15:33
Speaker 1: about him, waiting for him to get arrested, there's my guy.
15:38
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I think a small handful of people
15:42
Speaker 2: in diners frequented by New York Times reporters think and
15:45
Speaker 2: will tell us when those New York Times reporters go there.
15:47
Speaker 1: To check it out. Jeremy Peters has talked to all
15:49
Speaker 1: of them.
15:50
Speaker 7: Yes.
15:51
Speaker 2: I think we need to– there are a lot of
15:53
Speaker 2: predictions happening. We don't do that. I think this is
15:56
Speaker 2: obviously an unprecedented situation and The politics are complicated, particularly
16:01
Speaker 2: in the Republican primary, but we should just stipulate that
16:04
Speaker 2: being indicted for a crime is not going to help you.
16:09
Speaker 2: It's just a question of how much it hurts you.
16:12
Speaker 2: It is not going to make him more likely to
16:14
Speaker 2: be president. It's not going to make him more likely
16:15
Speaker 2: to be the nominee. It's just a question of whether
16:17
Speaker 2: enough people will care to penalize him enough to have
16:20
Speaker 2: him not be the nominee. That is the simple fact here.
16:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's ludicrous to suggest that this
16:28
Speaker 1: will help him in a general election.
16:31
Speaker 2: That is the most obvious thing in the world.
16:33
Speaker 1: For just a million reasons, none the least of which
16:37
Speaker 1: is that people have largely made up their mind about
16:40
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and the insurrection and a whole bunch of
16:43
Speaker 1: other shit have basically moved his poll numbers within a
16:46
Speaker 1: tiny margin for the last six or seven years. And
16:50
Speaker 1: the idea that the indictment will actually lead some people
16:53
Speaker 1: to the polls who haven't already supported Donald Trump in
16:56
Speaker 1: the last couple elections is just, it's It's baffling. Now,
17:02
Speaker 1: let's talk about the dynamic in the Republican primary, because
17:04
Speaker 1: I do think there's some interesting stuff there to talk about.
17:08
Speaker 1: Other Republicans and lots of pundits have predicted that getting
17:10
Speaker 1: arrested as the law and order candidate will only help
17:13
Speaker 1: Trump in the Republican primary, where voters are prone to
17:16
Speaker 1: believe that this is just another Democrat witch hunt to
17:19
Speaker 1: destroy their favorite Republican president for some affair. What do
17:23
Speaker 1: you think about that?
17:25
Speaker 2: I think that is also pickled galaxy brain take. Once again,
17:30
Speaker 2: being arrested is never going to help you politically.
17:34
Speaker 5: It's not.
17:35
Speaker 2: It is going to complicate, like I said, to complicate
17:37
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's campaign logistically, but also politically because whenever you
17:42
Speaker 2: have a primary to choose a nominee to run against
17:44
Speaker 2: a sitting president, the dominant issue, the one that trumps everything, ideology, morality,
17:49
Speaker 2: everything else is electability. And Donald Trump potentially facing criminal
17:56
Speaker 2: prosecution in the fall of the election year creates a
17:59
Speaker 2: pretty strong electability argument for his opponents to make against him.
18:05
Speaker 1: I'll give you the other argument. Again, I keep making
18:07
Speaker 1: these other arguments that I don't actually believe. So please
18:11
Speaker 1: don't tag me with them.
18:12
Speaker 2: Okay, now, Elijah, this is where you do the cut.
18:15
Speaker 2: Right here.
18:15
Speaker 1: Someone on Twitter the other week was like, Hey, when
18:19
Speaker 1: did you become such a big Ron DeSantis fan? Yeah,
18:21
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fucking Ron DeSantis fan. I can't wait.
18:23
Speaker 2: You defended him vigorously last week.
18:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did because I was trying to play a
18:27
Speaker 1: role here. I'm trying to give some people some interesting
18:29
Speaker 1: arguments since we don't have any Republicans on here. Okay,
18:35
Speaker 1: on this one, this would be the electability argument. And
18:38
Speaker 1: Trump's already trying to say this, which is Trump is
18:41
Speaker 1: the one that Democrats fear most, which is why the
18:45
Speaker 1: Democrats and the liberal establishment and the media... They're all
18:48
Speaker 1: trying to take Donald Trump down. And this is whatever
18:52
Speaker 1: you think about Donald Trump. This is a massive injustice
18:55
Speaker 1: and it's a political prosecution and they're going after him.
18:59
Speaker 1: And so they're going after you. And then, you know,
19:01
Speaker 1: you get a bunch of Republican voters who are like
19:03
Speaker 1: and again, there's like the Trump fans who it's not
19:05
Speaker 1: going to matter for. There's the people who've decided we're
19:08
Speaker 1: all in on DeSantis or someone else. We don't want Trump.
19:10
Speaker 1: And then there's like the the swing voters in the
19:13
Speaker 1: Republican primary who's like, I like Trump. but I'm willing
19:17
Speaker 1: to entertain alternatives, but I'm not sold on DeSantis, but
19:23
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it. And for those people, the argument
19:26
Speaker 1: would be, well, they're coming after Trump and they want
19:29
Speaker 1: to get Trump and I'm going to stand with him.
19:33
Speaker 1: This is the argument that Ross Duhat made this argument
19:36
Speaker 1: in the fucking New York Times. And I didn't find
19:38
Speaker 1: it super compelling, but it was an argument.
19:40
Speaker 2: I mean, the point here is on its own, It
19:45
Speaker 2: does not help Trump, for sure. On its own, it
19:48
Speaker 2: doesn't end his campaign. either. How Trump handles it and
19:53
Speaker 2: how Ron DeSantis handles it, which we'll talk about, is
19:55
Speaker 2: going to dictate this. And we do know in the
19:59
Speaker 2: past that Donald Trump, when he is the center of
20:03
Speaker 2: attention and the center of a controversy where a bunch
20:07
Speaker 2: of the people that Republican voters has identified as the
20:10
Speaker 2: wrong kinds of people line up against Trump, he strengthens.
20:14
Speaker 2: It's why his numbers went up during impeachment.
20:16
Speaker 1: And why his numbers with Republicans went up after the
20:19
Speaker 1: FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago.
20:21
Speaker 2: And so that could happen again in the short term.
20:24
Speaker 2: But how Ron DeSantis handles it, how Trump behaves will
20:27
Speaker 2: determine the end result here, the actual impact. We're not
20:30
Speaker 2: going to know the impact of this for months. There
20:33
Speaker 2: may be a quick bump in numbers. It could be real.
20:37
Speaker 2: It could be statistical noise after an arrest. But there's
20:40
Speaker 2: a long-term impact here, and it can't be viewed just
20:44
Speaker 2: in a vacuum because there are other charges potentially to come,
20:48
Speaker 2: other arrests, other things are going to happen. And the
20:52
Speaker 2: question is, is the full weight of that too much?
20:56
Speaker 2: Does it make Trump seem like a loser? Because in
20:58
Speaker 2: Republican politics, loser is much worse than criminal.
21:03
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
21:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
21:05
Speaker 1: And I do think, I mean, the other side of
21:06
Speaker 1: that argument for those swing Republican voters is just what
21:10
Speaker 1: you said, which is they look, they're like, I still
21:12
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump. Maybe I think the prosecution was unfair,
21:14
Speaker 1: but like, oh, we got to win. We got to
21:16
Speaker 1: beat Joe Biden. We're going to, this guy's getting indicted
21:19
Speaker 1: for all these things. Why not just go with Ron DeSantis?
21:22
Speaker 1: That's the other side of that argument. How much do
21:24
Speaker 1: you think it matters politically that breaking campaign finance laws
21:28
Speaker 1: is a less serious crime than hiding nuclear secrets in
21:31
Speaker 1: your beach house or plotting a coup? that ended up
21:35
Speaker 1: turning violent against members of Congress.
21:38
Speaker 2: If you needed evidence that there is not some giant
21:42
Speaker 2: top-down deep state conspiracy against Donald Trump, it would be
21:46
Speaker 2: that this crime is coming first. Because by far, this is,
21:50
Speaker 2: it is very serious. It can have very real, real,
21:53
Speaker 2: real impact. But just when you lay them all out,
21:56
Speaker 2: you have a seven-year-old, as old as this podcast, seven-year-old
22:02
Speaker 2: crime emanating, public crime emanating from personal conduct compared to
22:08
Speaker 2: deeply dangerous handling of classified information while president and engineering
22:14
Speaker 2: a violent coup against the United States. This one clearly
22:18
Speaker 2: has less substantive moral and political impact than the other two.
22:23
Speaker 2: And if we were deciding this, this would not come first.
22:26
Speaker 2: This would probably come last. Doesn't mean it's not significant.
22:28
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean he shouldn't be held accountable for it. Just
22:30
Speaker 2: from a purely political point of view, this is the
22:32
Speaker 2: easiest one for Republican voters looking for a reason to
22:36
Speaker 2: stick with Trump to use his permission structure to do so.
22:40
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's a nice little appetizer.
22:43
Speaker 2: Oh, you think it's a moosh?
22:48
Speaker 1: I think you get what– look it. Alvin Bragg indicts
22:52
Speaker 1: the guy. The world doesn't end. Knock, knock. Knock on wood.
22:57
Speaker 1: And then we're ready for Fulton County. We're ready for
22:59
Speaker 1: what's coming next. We already got one under our belt.
23:02
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Look, I also think I don't
23:05
Speaker 1: love minimizing this crime just because relative to hiding nuclear
23:12
Speaker 1: secrets from the government and staging a violent coup, it
23:16
Speaker 1: is not as bad. Because it's not just, I mean, yes,
23:19
Speaker 1: it stems from personal conduct, like you said, but it's cheating. it's,
23:24
Speaker 1: it's cheating in the election. No, no, no, just on
23:26
Speaker 1: your way. It's, it's, you know, like that's why we
23:29
Speaker 1: have campaign finance laws. What Donald Trump tried to do
23:32
Speaker 1: is say, I can, because I'm rich, I can take
23:35
Speaker 1: a hundred, couple hundred thousand dollars and buy this woman's silence.
23:37
Speaker 1: And even though you're only supposed to donate X amount
23:40
Speaker 1: of money to your campaign, I'm going to blow through
23:42
Speaker 1: that limit. And then I'm going to lie about it
23:44
Speaker 1: because I'm trying to win this election. And like, just
23:48
Speaker 1: because We now think that Donald Trump gets away with everything.
23:52
Speaker 1: And we think, oh, well, if the Stormy Daniels story
23:54
Speaker 1: had come out a couple of weeks after Access Hollywood,
23:56
Speaker 1: it wouldn't really matter that much. And Donald Trump may
23:58
Speaker 1: still win. We don't know that. And that's why you
24:00
Speaker 1: have campaign finance laws, because the campaign finance laws are like, no,
24:04
Speaker 1: you can't spend that much money to silence someone and
24:07
Speaker 1: you can't hide the reporting of it. So it's like
24:09
Speaker 1: a real I mean, it was him trying to cheat
24:11
Speaker 1: an election, which he always does.
24:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is that the argument on the politics here
24:16
Speaker 2: is two things.
24:17
Speaker 1: One is.
24:18
Speaker 2: The fact that Donald Trump is a corrupt cad is
24:21
Speaker 2: not a new piece of information to people, right? They
24:23
Speaker 2: knew both of those things. We have actual evidence of
24:27
Speaker 2: the political impact of alleged crimes of similar nature to
24:33
Speaker 2: the other two charges, right? We have seen much different,
24:37
Speaker 2: very poorly covered by the press, how the handling of
24:40
Speaker 2: alleged classified information can weigh down a campaign, as it
24:43
Speaker 2: did in 2016. And we know from 2022– that candidates'
24:49
Speaker 2: involvement in January 6th and pushing the big lie, the
24:53
Speaker 2: documented fact, hurt them in those elections. And so we
24:58
Speaker 2: just– it's not that it's not serious. It is quite serious.
25:00
Speaker 2: It's just from a political salience point of view, I
25:03
Speaker 2: think you can very credibly argument that it is the
25:05
Speaker 2: least salient of the three crimes. The fact of the
25:07
Speaker 2: arrest is a big deal regardless of the crime.
25:19
Speaker 1: So the other big Trump crime news this week was
25:21
Speaker 1: an appeals court order that his lawyer, Evan Corcoran, has
25:24
Speaker 1: to testify in the classified documents case because attorney-client privilege
25:30
Speaker 1: doesn't apply when you help your client commit a crime.
25:34
Speaker 1: The appeals court upheld a federal judge's findings. that the
25:39
Speaker 1: government made a prima facie showing that the former president
25:42
Speaker 1: committed criminal violations. That was from the federal judge's order.
25:47
Speaker 1: How do you think an indictment in this case or
25:49
Speaker 1: in the many other Trump investigations, Fulton County, the other
25:55
Speaker 1: Jack Smith investigations around January 6th, I believe the Manhattan
26:00
Speaker 1: or the New York State has some other business investigations
26:03
Speaker 1: they're doing. There's something about Truth Social and the SEC.
26:07
Speaker 1: There's a multiple investigation.
26:08
Speaker 2: There's a civil rape trial going on right now.
26:11
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's another one. So how do you think
26:14
Speaker 1: additional indictments change the political calculus?
26:19
Speaker 2: It is a question. I do think it's just amazing
26:23
Speaker 2: that in a basically year and a half period, Donald
26:26
Speaker 2: Trump's had two different lawyers arrested. help him commit two
26:28
Speaker 2: different crimes. This is the second time. Courts don't lightly
26:34
Speaker 2: undo attorney-client privilege. It has now happened twice with two
26:38
Speaker 2: different lawyers with two different crimes, which is just wild.
26:41
Speaker 2: We know from all the polling that Republican voters still
26:44
Speaker 2: like Trump. He still has a high approval rating. They
26:47
Speaker 2: think he was a great president. It's just a question
26:51
Speaker 2: of whether all of this noise weighs him down. And
26:54
Speaker 2: the more The more indictments you have, the more arrests
26:57
Speaker 2: you have, the more trials you have, the more noise.
26:59
Speaker 2: It reminds people of the baggage. And it emboldens Ron
27:05
Speaker 2: DeSantis' case to be the alternative. Trump without the handcuffs
27:09
Speaker 2: is essentially his pitch now.
27:15
Speaker 1: That's good. That's good. I hope you're listening, DeSantis campaign.
27:20
Speaker 2: We do not want to help Ron DeSantis. John May,
27:22
Speaker 2: because he's a huge DeSantis fan.
27:26
Speaker 1: Look, at some point, there's a lot of people out
27:30
Speaker 1: there who's going to have to actually pick between run.
27:33
Speaker 2: We're not one of them. We do not have to.
27:35
Speaker 1: Isn't that nice?
27:36
Speaker 2: Isn't that nice?
27:38
Speaker 1: Look, I know that you're fine with another four years
27:40
Speaker 1: of Trump. I'm not. That's what you're saying. That's your
27:47
Speaker 1: position on this. That's what I'm doing. All right. So
27:50
Speaker 1: not a lot of Democrats, except for us, are talking
27:52
Speaker 1: about Trump's impending arrest. Joe Biden isn't. Should he be?
27:56
Speaker 1: I don't think so, but I figured I'd ask you.
27:58
Speaker 1: If not, should some Democrats be making the case that
28:02
Speaker 1: if not hitting Trump for these charges, at least hitting
28:07
Speaker 1: Republicans in Congress for trying to investigate a state prosecutor
28:11
Speaker 1: because they think Donald Trump is above the law?
28:14
Speaker 2: I do not think Joe Biden should talk about this.
28:16
Speaker 2: I think it complicates, even though this is not a
28:18
Speaker 2: federal case where the prosecutors essentially work for Joe Biden.
28:22
Speaker 2: It complicates things. It probably helps Trump for Joe Biden
28:25
Speaker 2: to be commenting on it. I can't imagine. He would
28:28
Speaker 2: do it. He won't do it. There will be people
28:30
Speaker 2: arguing he should do it. I think those people will
28:32
Speaker 2: be mistaken. I think Democrats should make the case that
28:36
Speaker 2: Republicans are focusing on all of this dumb stuff, on
28:39
Speaker 2: protecting Donald Trump, on investigating the investigators instead of doing
28:44
Speaker 2: all the things people actually want them to do. Raising wages,
28:48
Speaker 2: lowering costs, making healthcare more affordable. averting the debt ceiling
28:52
Speaker 2: crisis that's coming. All of those things that people, we
28:55
Speaker 2: know people care about that they're not doing is they
28:57
Speaker 2: can do all this other stuff in the service of
28:59
Speaker 2: politics for Donald Trump, for MAGA Republicans. I think that's
29:02
Speaker 2: the case to make.
29:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just think that, I don't think that a
29:08
Speaker 1: Democrat talking about this outside of Joe Biden, which I agree,
29:12
Speaker 1: he can't just be getting into a prosecution. I don't
29:15
Speaker 1: think that elevates it in the media as much as
29:19
Speaker 1: the facts of the case yeah you know.
29:21
Speaker 2: The president's being arrested it's up it's right.
29:23
Speaker 1: That's gonna like you're not gonna need a democrat to
29:26
Speaker 1: go out in front of the cameras and and say
29:28
Speaker 1: that like that's in the news that's in there all
29:32
Speaker 1: right let's talk about the other major political figure who
29:36
Speaker 1: hadn't weighed in on trump's impending arrest until this week
29:39
Speaker 1: governor Ron DeSanctimonious, a.k.a. Meatball Ron, a.k.a. Tiny D. Here's
29:45
Speaker 1: what he finally had to say.
29:46
Speaker 8: I don't know what goes into paying hush money to
29:49
Speaker 8: a porn star to secure silence over some type of
29:53
Speaker 8: alleged affair. I just I can't speak to that. But
29:57
Speaker 8: what I can speak to. is that if you have
30:00
Speaker 8: a prosecutor who is ignoring crimes happening every single day
30:06
Speaker 8: in his jurisdiction, and he chooses to go back many,
30:10
Speaker 8: many years ago to try to use something about porn
30:15
Speaker 8: star hush money payments, you know, that's an example of
30:19
Speaker 8: pursuing a political agenda.
30:20
Speaker 1: I do appreciate that he said porn star hush money
30:24
Speaker 1: payments multiple times in that answer. It was like, I'm not,
30:31
Speaker 1: you know what I'm thinking about there? I do.
30:33
Speaker 2: Can you guess?
30:34
Speaker 7: I do.
30:35
Speaker 2: Does it involve, was it an MSNBC hit?
30:37
Speaker 1: Yes. Back in the, back in the 08 campaign in
30:42
Speaker 1: the primary when Billy Sheen in New Hampshire tried to
30:47
Speaker 1: insinuate that Barack Obama once did cocaine. Yeah. And then
30:51
Speaker 1: Mark Penn just said it multiple times in an MSNB.
30:54
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't say
30:56
Speaker 1: he did cocaine. What are you talking about cocaine? What
30:58
Speaker 1: are you talking about Barack Obama cocaine? Hence, that was
31:00
Speaker 1: what Ron DeSantis just did.
31:01
Speaker 2: We're so old and so lame.
31:03
Speaker 1: Honestly, go look at it on YouTube. It's a classic.
31:06
Speaker 4: All right.
31:07
Speaker 1: Tiny D later sat for an interview with Piers Morgan
31:11
Speaker 1: for an interview with a Fox streaming service that he
31:13
Speaker 1: also wrote up in the New York Post. What a sentence.
31:18
Speaker 1: The headline was in the New York Post for Piers' story,
31:21
Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis rips Trump's character chaotic leadership style. Here's what
31:27
Speaker 1: he said. What are the differences between you?
31:29
Speaker 8: I mean, obviously, you know, the approach to COVID was different.
31:32
Speaker 8: I mean, you know, I would have fired somebody like Fauci.
31:35
Speaker 8: I also think just in terms of my approach to leadership,
31:37
Speaker 8: you know, I get personnel in the government who have
31:41
Speaker 8: the agenda of the people and share our agenda. So
31:45
Speaker 8: the way we run the government, I think, is No
31:47
Speaker 8: daily drama. Focus on the big picture and put points
31:51
Speaker 8: on the board.
31:52
Speaker 1: What is your favorite nickname that Trump's given you so far?
31:55
Speaker 2: Is it Ron DeSanctimonious or Meatball Ron?
31:58
Speaker 8: I don't know how to spell DeSanctimonious. I don't really
32:00
Speaker 8: know what it means, but I kind of like it's long.
32:03
Speaker 8: It's got a lot of vowels. I mean, so we'll
32:05
Speaker 8: go with that.
32:05
Speaker 5: That's fine.
32:06
Speaker 8: You know, you can call me whatever you want. I mean,
32:08
Speaker 8: just as long as you, you know, also call me
32:11
Speaker 8: a winner.
32:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, ripped Trump's character there. What do you think of
32:18
Speaker 1: Tiny D's strategy?
32:20
Speaker 2: I just want to say that every time I hear
32:22
Speaker 2: Rhonda Sanchez's voice, it's like the first time all over again.
32:25
Speaker 2: It is. It doesn't get less annoying over time. It's
32:30
Speaker 2: just you're constantly shocked at how annoying it is.
32:33
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know I'm a fan of Ron DeSantis,
32:36
Speaker 1: of course. But I don't know if that's going to
32:39
Speaker 1: wear well, that voice.
32:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do Ron DeSantis with the on mute with
32:43
Speaker 2: the subtitles on when you watch your boy. Way back
32:49
Speaker 2: in the day, you may have been there for this,
32:52
Speaker 2: but we watched a focus group about the new House
32:54
Speaker 2: Republican majority and they played a lot of footage of
32:57
Speaker 2: Eric Cantor.
32:58
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, he's another one with a bad voice.
33:00
Speaker 2: With a voice, and the focus group crowd just revolted
33:05
Speaker 2: against Eric Cantor's voice. And I really feel like that's
33:07
Speaker 2: how it's going to play for Ron DeSantis.
33:09
Speaker 1: Anyway, we do substantive criticism here, no theater criticism.
33:12
Speaker 2: Hey, look, I'm just telling you what the voters care about.
33:14
Speaker 2: Not saying it's good, not saying it's bad.
33:18
Speaker 1: Anyway, so what do you think of DeSantis? He poked
33:21
Speaker 1: out a little bit. He's doing a little... So little
33:25
Speaker 1: needling of Trump. And I will say for him, by
33:28
Speaker 1: the way, before you answer, sorry, like a little does
33:30
Speaker 1: go a long way with the press. Like DeSantis said
33:33
Speaker 1: that in the interview, which I think we can all
33:35
Speaker 1: agree is pretty mild. And the New York Post wrote
33:38
Speaker 1: it up as DeSantis rips Trump's character.
33:41
Speaker 2: I mean, that is going to happen a thousand times.
33:43
Speaker 2: And he should be savvy enough to know that because
33:46
Speaker 2: the press is always spoiling for a fight between politicians.
33:49
Speaker 7: Yeah.
33:50
Speaker 2: But they're particularly spoiling for a fight between Ron DeSantis
33:53
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump for a whole host of reasons. What
33:56
Speaker 2: I think as a strategy, this is– you see– basically
34:03
Speaker 2: what DeSantis said there is the core strategy of his campaign.
34:05
Speaker 2: Like I bet in a whiteboard in the DeSantis headquarters-to-be,
34:09
Speaker 2: it is that. It's how do you– if your lane
34:12
Speaker 2: is Trump– without the baggage or the handcuffs, whatever, and
34:16
Speaker 2: you're going to be less chaotic, and you have to
34:18
Speaker 2: find one issue to differentiate yourself on, and that issue
34:21
Speaker 2: is obviously COVID, because it's the place where you are
34:26
Speaker 2: known for terrible reasons for your quote-unquote success in COVID,
34:30
Speaker 2: where in the Republican Party, success is measured by lives owned,
34:32
Speaker 2: not lives saved.
34:35
Speaker 1: I let a bunch of old people die. That's where
34:37
Speaker 1: I'm running on.
34:39
Speaker 2: And so you pick Fauci, right? So that is the strategy.
34:43
Speaker 2: But I feel like DeSantis needs to show, not tell.
34:49
Speaker 2: He basically just read the whiteboard to the people and said,
34:52
Speaker 2: you want to demonstrate those things without being so explicit
34:55
Speaker 2: about it. And he walked sort of right into a
34:57
Speaker 2: trap here where he did, you know, he was sort
35:00
Speaker 2: of faced with a binary choice, defend Trump like everyone else,
35:04
Speaker 2: or use his opportunity to differentiate yourself. And the worst
35:08
Speaker 2: decision in politics is not the wrong decision. It's no decision.
35:10
Speaker 2: And that's what he did here. He tried to do both.
35:12
Speaker 2: And I think he pleased no one. And you see
35:14
Speaker 2: in the press coverage is shitty for him all across
35:16
Speaker 2: the board, I think.
35:17
Speaker 1: And by the way, something similar happened with him on Ukraine.
35:21
Speaker 1: He tried to walk back his statement that his campaign
35:26
Speaker 1: put out to Tucker Carlson about his position on Ukraine,
35:29
Speaker 1: calling it a territorial dispute. And then with peers, he
35:33
Speaker 1: was like, well, Putin's a war criminal. And I didn't.
35:35
Speaker 1: My statement was taken out of context. It's like, no,
35:38
Speaker 1: the context was it was a fucking written statement, dude.
35:41
Speaker 1: We didn't take it out of context. We all read
35:43
Speaker 1: the words. So I do think it's emblematic of sort
35:46
Speaker 1: of what he's trying to straddle here in this primary. Look,
35:50
Speaker 1: as you know, huge Ron DeSantis fan.
35:52
Speaker 2: Clip.
35:53
Speaker 1: And I have been laying out the reasons why I
35:56
Speaker 1: don't think it's a great idea for him to just
35:58
Speaker 1: go nuclear on Trump this early. Because... there are a
36:03
Speaker 1: ton of Republican voters who love Donald Trump, even as
36:06
Speaker 1: they are potentially open to alternatives. But even for me,
36:12
Speaker 1: I think that his Piers Morgan interview and his Stormy
36:16
Speaker 1: Daniels statement is just a little too cute by half.
36:19
Speaker 1: You know, Tommy makes the point that it's like DeSantis
36:23
Speaker 1: is showing is being too weak and Republican voters want
36:26
Speaker 1: strength and that's why they want Trump. And my take
36:29
Speaker 1: is like slightly different. I don't think it's contradictory, but
36:31
Speaker 1: it's like, DeSantis there sounds like a typical politician in
36:37
Speaker 1: trying to carefully criticize Trump for the press. And like
36:41
Speaker 1: you said, reading the message from the whiteboard and Trump
36:45
Speaker 1: is trying to put him in a box of typical
36:49
Speaker 1: establishment politician. And he's sounding like a typical establishment politician
36:54
Speaker 1: in the way that he's criticizing Donald Trump right now.
36:57
Speaker 1: And I think that's if you're one of those voters
37:00
Speaker 1: who was like open to DeSantis and still open to
37:02
Speaker 1: supporting Trump again, you kind of look, you listen to
37:05
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, just being Donald Trump. And then you listen
37:07
Speaker 1: to Ron DeSantis, like doing his line about Fauci and
37:10
Speaker 1: COVID and making a stupid joke about the vowels and DeSanctimonious.
37:13
Speaker 1: And you're like, eh, I don't know. This guy seems
37:15
Speaker 1: a little, little, little typical.
37:18
Speaker 2: I think what you're seeing here is, is the great
37:21
Speaker 2: challenge of potential undoing of DeSantis' campaign, which is Trump's
37:25
Speaker 2: hardcore base, the one that can deliver him the nomination
37:28
Speaker 2: in the winner-take-all primaries of the Republican Party, they're dedicated
37:34
Speaker 2: to him personally, and they are MAGA through and through.
37:37
Speaker 2: The universe of voters who are open to Ron DeSantis,
37:40
Speaker 2: which makes up probably 65% of the Republican Party, they
37:46
Speaker 2: are ideologically incoherent. Some of them are more traditional Republicans
37:51
Speaker 2: who would certainly pick a Republican over Joe Biden, but
37:54
Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with Trump for a variety of reasons. The
37:57
Speaker 2: reason he flips on Ukraine is because he's got a
38:00
Speaker 2: whole bunch of people, including huge donors, who think that
38:04
Speaker 2: the Republicans should return to their neocon roots and be
38:07
Speaker 2: tough on Russia. So he flips there. You have people
38:09
Speaker 2: who love all the stuff Donald Trump did, just think
38:13
Speaker 2: he wasn't effective at it. So you want all the
38:16
Speaker 2: MAGA stuff with more efficacy and less chaos. You have
38:19
Speaker 2: people who want– to return to some of not Paul
38:22
Speaker 2: Ryan-like entitlement cuts, but more traditional tax cuts and trade.
38:27
Speaker 2: And trying to stitch that anti-Trump or DeSantis-curious coalition together
38:33
Speaker 2: is going to be very, very challenging for him. And
38:35
Speaker 2: he's not doing it very deftly early in the process here.
38:39
Speaker 1: What would you have advised DeSantis to do this week?
38:43
Speaker 2: Just chill the fuck out.
38:45
Speaker 1: Interesting. Or just not say much at all?
38:47
Speaker 2: Well, I think his Piers Morgan interview, his statement feels
38:50
Speaker 2: very reactive. The narrative is, and it's borne out in
38:53
Speaker 2: the polling, that Donald Trump has gained ground on DeSantis,
38:56
Speaker 2: that Trump has ascended, DeSantis is falling. And I think
38:59
Speaker 2: that is an accurate fact. That is being attributed to
39:03
Speaker 2: the fact that Donald Trump is lashing out at Ron
39:06
Speaker 2: DeSantis left and right, and DeSantis has not been responding.
39:09
Speaker 2: But the polling does not actually show that's why Trump
39:12
Speaker 2: is gaining and DeSantis is falling.
39:14
Speaker 1: DeSantis' favorability ratings are better than Trump's.
39:18
Speaker 2: They have not taken a hit.
39:20
Speaker 1: Even as he's been losing ground in the head-to-head, his
39:23
Speaker 1: favorability ratings are quite high and his unfavorability rating is
39:26
Speaker 1: very low. This is all among Republican voters. Yeah.
39:29
Speaker 2: So that's the key point, which that means that voters
39:32
Speaker 2: are returning to Trump not because they've learned information that
39:36
Speaker 2: they don't like about Ron DeSantis. They're just being reminded
39:39
Speaker 2: why they like Donald Trump, that he is– he hasn't
39:43
Speaker 2: been involved in some– some sort of major embarrassment recently,
39:48
Speaker 2: like losing the primary or dining with Kanye West or
39:50
Speaker 2: all that. He is just owning the news like he
39:53
Speaker 2: does so well. And Ron DeSantis was everywhere right after
39:56
Speaker 2: the midterms. And he's faded into the background. And so
40:02
Speaker 2: you don't be reactive, Trump. I think in this case,
40:06
Speaker 2: I would have just gone after the prosecutor if I
40:09
Speaker 2: was Ron DeSantis. I would have said as little as possible,
40:11
Speaker 2: just gone after the prosecutor and and said, I'm focused
40:14
Speaker 2: on my legislative session doing X, Y, and Z. This
40:17
Speaker 2: is a long game. Play the long game here. Understand
40:20
Speaker 2: why you are fading. And it's not because you're not
40:23
Speaker 2: responding to Trump. It's because you haven't announced your campaign yet.
40:26
Speaker 2: I would maybe speed up my timeframe to try to
40:28
Speaker 2: get this going and try to find some high-profile moments
40:32
Speaker 2: that remind people why they like me that have nothing
40:34
Speaker 2: to do with Trump during the course of this legislative session.
40:38
Speaker 2: But I think he's being... reactive. He's not handling the
40:42
Speaker 2: first bit of turbulence well. And it's just like, relax
40:45
Speaker 2: for a second. There's only two people are going to
40:46
Speaker 2: win this primary, Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis. You're still
40:50
Speaker 2: the other person and there's no need to panic just yet.
40:53
Speaker 1: I think to your earlier point about how the Republican
40:57
Speaker 1: party is fine with a criminal, but they don't like
40:59
Speaker 1: a loser. Like I think if Ron DeSantis does not
41:02
Speaker 1: start defining Donald Trump as a loser, Ron DeSantis will
41:05
Speaker 1: be a loser. Like he's just got a, I think,
41:09
Speaker 1: and he doesn't have to just come right out now
41:11
Speaker 1: and say like the guy's the biggest loser though. That
41:13
Speaker 1: would be interesting. I think just like every time Donald
41:16
Speaker 1: Trump attacks him, every time he's asked about Donald Trump,
41:18
Speaker 1: just have this sort of like, uh, it's sort of sad.
41:22
Speaker 1: It's sort of pathetic. You know, like I'm, I'm focused
41:24
Speaker 1: on my stuff and you know, Donald Trump, he was,
41:26
Speaker 1: he was a great president once, but I, you know,
41:28
Speaker 1: he's sort of, he's struggling for relevance. He's got all
41:31
Speaker 1: these indictments. It's just, it's sort of sad. It's sort
41:33
Speaker 1: of sad. You know, like I think he's got to
41:35
Speaker 1: put him in a loser box and And right now,
41:38
Speaker 1: it just doesn't– I don't know. It seems like it's
41:41
Speaker 1: too cute by half and it's too subtle what he's doing.
41:43
Speaker 2: I think it's actually the opposite of subtle. I think
41:47
Speaker 2: it's too just obvious.
41:49
Speaker 1: Transparently political.
41:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, so transparently political. It is subtle in the sense
41:53
Speaker 2: that it's.
41:53
Speaker 1: For people who are tuned in like us, right? For
41:56
Speaker 1: most voters, they have no fucking idea that Donald.
41:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's getting the worst of all worlds. He is
42:01
Speaker 2: pleasing no one. He's getting all the downside, none of
42:05
Speaker 2: the upside, and he just has to– this is the question.
42:09
Speaker 2: He has not faced real political turbulence in his life
42:12
Speaker 2: and how you handle that. Like when we work for Obama, right?
42:16
Speaker 2: I hate the 2008 parallels to this, but DeSantis is
42:20
Speaker 2: like Obama in the sense that he is completely fresh
42:23
Speaker 2: on the national stage. It is an untested proposition of
42:27
Speaker 2: how we'll handle the tremendous pressure and glare and scrutiny
42:31
Speaker 2: of a presidential campaign. And if he does, if he,
42:34
Speaker 2: it's possible he can't handle it. It's very possible he can't.
42:36
Speaker 2: We're going to find that out pretty quickly here.
42:38
Speaker 1: And he hasn't had anything like this because he's been
42:41
Speaker 1: in Florida only talking to MAGA friendly press outlets and
42:46
Speaker 1: just like holding press conferences where he fucking owns the lips,
42:49
Speaker 1: you know? And it's like, if that's, that's the only
42:51
Speaker 1: clips people see, then like, yeah, Republicans are going to
42:53
Speaker 1: like him. But when he has to actually sit down,
42:55
Speaker 1: do interviews, do press conferences, do all this kind of shit,
42:58
Speaker 1: like that's the real test.
42:59
Speaker 2: It's so funny that right now we're talking about him
43:01
Speaker 2: being completely in safe spaces, and we're talking about him
43:04
Speaker 2: venturing out into dangerous territory by speaking to slightly more
43:08
Speaker 2: pro-Trump MAGA media people. He's not sitting down with the
43:13
Speaker 2: ghost of Tim Russert for Meet the Press. He might
43:17
Speaker 2: have to talk to either Doocy or something.
43:22
Speaker 1: Oh, boy. Tiny D. Okay, when we come back, Dan
43:25
Speaker 1: will talk to Strict Scrutiny's Leah Lippman about... the case
43:29
Speaker 1: against Donald Trump.
43:39
Speaker 2: We are eagerly awaiting the potential indictment and arrest of
43:42
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. Here to break down the legal case is
43:44
Speaker 2: Leah Lippman, the host of Crooked's fantastic legal podcast, Strict Scrutiny. Leah,
43:49
Speaker 2: welcome back to the pod.
43:50
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
43:51
Speaker 2: Leah, Donald Trump said he was going to get arrested
43:53
Speaker 2: on Tuesday. The press thought it would be Wednesday. We
43:55
Speaker 2: were hoping it would be today. Do you have any
43:57
Speaker 2: sense of what the delay is with the grand jury
44:00
Speaker 2: vote on a potential indictment?
44:01
Speaker 7: I mean, we always knew we needed to take him seriously,
44:04
Speaker 7: not literally. So the day of the week was a
44:05
Speaker 7: little beside the point. But basically, the way grand jury
44:08
Speaker 7: proceedings work is they impanel a grand jury and that
44:11
Speaker 7: grand jury hears a bunch of different cases. But it
44:14
Speaker 7: might not actually sit on days it was scheduled and
44:17
Speaker 7: their proceedings aren't actually public. So The grand jury wasn't
44:21
Speaker 7: actually seated, I think, either on Tuesday or maybe even Wednesday.
44:25
Speaker 7: And it looks like Thursday is the first day in
44:27
Speaker 7: which they're actually going to sit down and hear cases
44:29
Speaker 7: and decide whether to issue indictments. So it's really about
44:33
Speaker 7: the scheduling of the grand jury and the secrecy of
44:35
Speaker 7: those proceedings.
44:37
Speaker 2: This maybe sounds like a crazy question, but do we
44:39
Speaker 2: have any reason to believe the indictment is actually imminent
44:42
Speaker 2: other than Donald Trump's Postal and Truth Social? Or are
44:45
Speaker 2: we just going off of wishful thinking or something like that?
44:48
Speaker 7: I think it is largely based on things that are
44:50
Speaker 7: coming from his camp, in part because grand jury proceedings
44:53
Speaker 7: are generally secret. I mean, we don't necessarily know whether
44:56
Speaker 7: someone has been indicted unless they make it public or
44:59
Speaker 7: until they've been arrested. Now, having said that, there has
45:03
Speaker 7: been some suggestion and piece of evidence otherwise that some
45:08
Speaker 7: things are happening, interviewing other people close to the Trump
45:11
Speaker 7: camp and other people seemingly being asked questions or becoming
45:16
Speaker 7: involved in this New York-based investigation in a way that
45:20
Speaker 7: it looked like it had died down a few years back.
45:23
Speaker 7: So there are some pieces of corroborating evidence for his statements.
45:29
Speaker 2: In general, what happens after the indictment? Just help us
45:33
Speaker 2: understand the process. Talk to us, like the non-lawyers that
45:36
Speaker 2: we are. Will he get frog-marched? Will there be the
45:39
Speaker 2: perp walk America deserves? How soon could a trial happen?
45:41
Speaker 2: Just what's the basic process here?
45:43
Speaker 5: Sure.
45:44
Speaker 7: So after an indictment, there will be a determination about
45:47
Speaker 7: whether someone will be held before a trial or during trial,
45:52
Speaker 7: and that might be a point in which an arrest happens.
45:55
Speaker 7: There will then be a determination about whether someone will
45:58
Speaker 7: be held with or without bail before trial, and then
46:01
Speaker 7: there will be a trial. Unfortunately, the timing on these
46:04
Speaker 7: things is all.
46:06
Speaker 5: Over the map.
46:08
Speaker 7: It really depends, you know, what priority the prosecutors give
46:12
Speaker 7: this case relative to others, as well as what other
46:15
Speaker 7: kinds of cases they are trying to bring. And so
46:17
Speaker 7: it's impossible to know what sort of schedule we are
46:21
Speaker 7: looking at. You know, the only kind of legal constraints
46:24
Speaker 7: are you have a constitutional right to a speedy trial,
46:26
Speaker 7: but that's a pretty toothless guarantee. And as long as
46:29
Speaker 7: it happens within, let's say, a year, a few years,
46:34
Speaker 7: it's going to be fine. So it really depends on
46:37
Speaker 7: how the office tries to proceed.
46:39
Speaker 2: So there's no guarantee this will happen before the election,
46:42
Speaker 2: were there to be a trial?
46:44
Speaker 7: No guarantee, although you kind of have to think that
46:48
Speaker 7: they don't want this hanging over their heads for some
46:53
Speaker 7: uncertain period of time and indefinite point in the future.
46:56
Speaker 5: But again, that's just my own intuition.
47:01
Speaker 2: Our understanding of what Donald Trump is being investigated for
47:04
Speaker 2: and maybe indicted for involves hush money payments to a
47:07
Speaker 2: woman he had an affair with. People get money in
47:12
Speaker 2: exchange for their silence all the time in the course
47:16
Speaker 2: of business and in cases. Why is this one a crime?
47:20
Speaker 2: What crime did Donald Trump allegedly commit here?
47:23
Speaker 7: So the New York state crime is falsifying business records.
47:26
Speaker 7: So you have to report payments that you are making
47:30
Speaker 7: as part of your business and you have to report
47:33
Speaker 7: them truthfully. That is just a state requirement. And the
47:36
Speaker 7: charge of falsifying business records is actually a pretty common
47:39
Speaker 7: one that New York prosecutes all the time. But what
47:42
Speaker 7: makes this case potentially different is falsifying business records is
47:46
Speaker 7: typically a misdemeanor. And here it looks like they might
47:50
Speaker 7: be trying to charge him with a felony. And in
47:52
Speaker 7: order to charge him with a felony, you have to
47:54
Speaker 7: show that the business records were falsified with an intent
47:58
Speaker 7: to commit some other crime. And we don't totally know
48:03
Speaker 7: what that other crime is. It might very well end
48:08
Speaker 7: up being federal election law or campaign finance violations, where
48:14
Speaker 7: basically the allegation is they use this money for the
48:18
Speaker 7: benefit of the campaign, but didn't disclose it as such.
48:22
Speaker 7: So That's the general theory, falsifying business records, and they're
48:26
Speaker 7: trying to elevate it or escalate it up to a
48:29
Speaker 7: felony charge by proving that the business records were falsified
48:32
Speaker 7: in order to commit some other crime, likely violation of
48:35
Speaker 7: federal campaign finance law.
48:37
Speaker 2: That's a federal law. This is a state case, but
48:39
Speaker 2: that works because the business records falsification is in service
48:43
Speaker 2: of that federal crime?
48:45
Speaker 7: It's because, yes, exactly. The underlying state charge is falsifying
48:49
Speaker 7: business records. Now, this theory is admittedly slightly untested, whether
48:55
Speaker 7: the felony that you are trying to conceal that New
48:59
Speaker 7: York can prosecute you for is a federal crime versus
49:01
Speaker 7: a state one. That's a little uncertain, but it's not
49:05
Speaker 7: even clear that that is the only crime that they
49:08
Speaker 7: are saying he was intending to commit when he falsified
49:12
Speaker 7: these business records.
49:13
Speaker 5: There could also be state charges as well.
49:15
Speaker 7: It just so happens that that's the most likely one
49:17
Speaker 7: given that Michael Cohen already pled guilty to a federal
49:21
Speaker 7: campaign finance violation.
49:22
Speaker 2: So in other words, we're all making a whole bunch
49:24
Speaker 2: of judgments and speculation based on an incomplete set of facts.
49:27
Speaker 2: Is that fair to say?
49:29
Speaker 5: Exactly. I mean, this is the world that Donald Trump
49:31
Speaker 5: has forced us into. Yes.
49:33
Speaker 7: Okay.
49:33
Speaker 1: Okay.
49:34
Speaker 2: One parallel that people have drawn with this admittedly incomplete
49:37
Speaker 2: set of facts is to the case against former Democratic
49:40
Speaker 2: presidential candidate, John Edwards, who also provided money to a
49:45
Speaker 2: woman with whom he'd had an affair. He was indicted, charged,
49:49
Speaker 2: taken on trial, and got off. How are these cases
49:51
Speaker 2: similar or different?
49:53
Speaker 5: Sure.
49:53
Speaker 7: So they're similar in that the allegation there was there
49:57
Speaker 7: was a payment made to an individual to keep them quiet.
50:00
Speaker 7: And the allegation was keeping that individual with whom John
50:03
Speaker 7: Edwards had an affair quiet was a benefit to the
50:06
Speaker 7: Edwards campaign. Now, there are, however, some pretty important differences.
50:12
Speaker 7: One is John Edwards' defense is not, let's say, as
50:18
Speaker 7: credible for Donald Trump, because John Edwards' defense was he
50:23
Speaker 7: wasn't keeping his affair quiet for the benefit of his campaign,
50:28
Speaker 7: but rather to keep it from his wife and children
50:32
Speaker 7: as his wife was dying from cancer. And it's not
50:36
Speaker 7: just that he said that, it's also that he continued
50:40
Speaker 7: to pay the woman with whom he had an affair
50:43
Speaker 7: after the election. And so that gave his defense some
50:47
Speaker 7: additional credibility there. Now, how believable is it that Donald
50:53
Speaker 7: Trump doesn't want anyone to know about his infidelity, right?
50:58
Speaker 5: Like it's just not that credible.
51:00
Speaker 7: And on top of that, you don't have, again, just
51:03
Speaker 7: based on the admittedly speculative incomplete facts we are working with,
51:07
Speaker 7: you know, a piece of evidence that suggests he continued
51:11
Speaker 7: to make these payments, you know, after the election, because
51:15
Speaker 7: what he really cared about was, you know, public opinion
51:18
Speaker 7: or his wife's opinion or his, you know, family's opinion about,
51:22
Speaker 7: you know, who he was sleeping with.
51:25
Speaker 2: Let's presume for a second that the crime is the
51:27
Speaker 2: one you suspect it may be involving campaign finance violations
51:31
Speaker 2: because of the falsified business records. If that is the case,
51:35
Speaker 2: how difficult a case do you think that is to prosecute?
51:40
Speaker 2: Does it give Trump a real opening to get off here?
51:43
Speaker 2: What's your legal analysis of the kind of case that
51:45
Speaker 2: Bragg would bring under those circumstances?
51:47
Speaker 7: I mean, the misdemeanor charge, falsifying business records, that seems
51:50
Speaker 7: pretty straightforward. Proving the predicate or enhancement felony seems more difficult.
51:56
Speaker 7: And it's more difficult in part because it turns on
51:59
Speaker 7: what Donald Trump's intent was. And proving intent, that is
52:03
Speaker 7: like what is in someone's mind, is.
52:05
Speaker 5: Always a little bit difficult.
52:07
Speaker 7: I think, frankly, particularly true when you're dealing with someone
52:10
Speaker 7: who's a serial liar, who has like a pretty agnostic
52:14
Speaker 7: relationship with the facts. And so you don't really know
52:17
Speaker 7: when all of the things or which of the things
52:20
Speaker 7: they say are actually true. Now, that being said, it
52:24
Speaker 7: can't be the case that just because someone is a
52:26
Speaker 7: perennial liar means they can never be convicted of an
52:30
Speaker 7: intent crime and a campaign finance violation. And here you
52:35
Speaker 7: also have the additional fact that Michael Cohen pleaded guilty
52:39
Speaker 7: to this very offense, and that's got to help the conviction.
52:43
Speaker 7: So is it possible he could be convicted?
52:45
Speaker 5: Yes. Is there a way in which he could get off?
52:49
Speaker 7: Yes. I mean, part of what is the atmosphere around
52:53
Speaker 7: this case is that it would have been possible, it
52:55
Speaker 7: could have been possible for a state prosecutor to bring
52:58
Speaker 7: this charge forward. You know, four or five years ago,
53:01
Speaker 7: it's been possible for federal prosecutors to, you know, bring
53:04
Speaker 7: a federal campaign finance charge, you know, ever since we
53:07
Speaker 7: knew these facts and ever since the Michael Cohen plea,
53:09
Speaker 7: and they haven't. And I think that, unfortunately, that atmospheric
53:13
Speaker 7: aspect of the case might color people's assessments of whether
53:16
Speaker 7: they think he is, in fact, guilty.
53:19
Speaker 2: And if he were to be found guilty, it's life
53:21
Speaker 2: in prison, right? This is it. Throw away the key.
53:23
Speaker 2: That's how it goes.
53:24
Speaker 7: Uh, you know, our criminal system is in fact, overly
53:27
Speaker 7: punitive and overly harsh.
53:29
Speaker 5: Um, but, uh, no, uh, it's not actually going to
53:32
Speaker 5: be a life in prison.
53:33
Speaker 7: Um, and you know, there's a wide range of different punishments, um,
53:38
Speaker 7: that might happen just depending on, you know, whether he's
53:41
Speaker 7: convicted of a misdemeanor or felony. Um, and if he
53:43
Speaker 7: is convicted of the felony and, you know, what charges
53:46
Speaker 7: they bring. So it's really impossible to tell at this point, but, uh, No,
53:49
Speaker 7: I don't think we're looking at life without parole.
53:51
Speaker 2: Oh, well, there you go. Okay. I'm now going to
53:53
Speaker 2: put you in the position of a deeply uncomfortable hypothetical situation.
53:58
Speaker 1: Uh-oh.
53:58
Speaker 6: Yeah.
53:59
Speaker 2: Imagine this. Donald Trump has found himself destitute. He needs
54:04
Speaker 2: legal representation. The court appoints you to be his pro
54:08
Speaker 2: bono attorney. How would you, legal expert, and I can
54:11
Speaker 2: promise you no one who's working on Trump's legal team
54:12
Speaker 2: is going to hear this. So give us your best stuff.
54:15
Speaker 2: How would you defend Donald Trump? Were you his attorney?
54:19
Speaker 7: So first I would come up with a set of
54:21
Speaker 7: alternative facts to explain why exactly my client, who is
54:27
Speaker 7: very much a family man, wanted to conceal this affair
54:31
Speaker 7: from his.
54:31
Speaker 5: Very young child.
54:34
Speaker 7: And on top of that, I do think some amount
54:37
Speaker 7: of this case is going to be decided just in
54:39
Speaker 7: the public eye. And I think with public messaging around
54:43
Speaker 7: why these charges are being brought now, why they weren't
54:45
Speaker 7: brought then, that's going to be a part of the
54:48
Speaker 7: story as well. And so my guess is that will
54:50
Speaker 7: seep into the trial as far as defense evidence. allegations
54:55
Speaker 7: about prosecutorial misconduct or impermissible prosecutorial motives saying like, they're
55:00
Speaker 7: just out to get me, you know, their predecessor decided
55:02
Speaker 7: not to prosecute me. And now they're just doing so
55:05
Speaker 7: because of some bad press surrounding, you know, someone who
55:08
Speaker 7: left the office and was unhappy with the previous prosecutor's decisions. So,
55:12
Speaker 7: you know, I would definitely try and mount the John
55:14
Speaker 7: Edwards defense, definitely look into, you know, the prosecutor's conduct
55:19
Speaker 7: and all of those things. And then I would take
55:21
Speaker 7: a shower and I would have some difficulty sleeping.
55:25
Speaker 2: I can imagine. Would you try to plead this out
55:28
Speaker 2: as a misdemeanor? Would that be an option for Trump?
55:29
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is.
55:31
Speaker 7: But it is really hard to know exactly what the
55:35
Speaker 7: state's posture is going to be. Our criminal legal system
55:38
Speaker 7: is a system of pleas. 98% of cases end up
55:41
Speaker 7: being resolved in plea deals. And in the federal system,
55:43
Speaker 7: I think it's actually even higher than that. But there
55:46
Speaker 7: are always going to be some cases that prosecutors think
55:49
Speaker 7: they you know, need to go to trial or want
55:52
Speaker 7: to go to trial. And this also might be a
55:54
Speaker 7: case where, you know, the defendant, Trump, doesn't want to
55:59
Speaker 7: plea because, you know, he's not necessarily always rational in
56:03
Speaker 7: making decisions. But yeah, no, a plea to a misdemeanor,
56:08
Speaker 7: if he is indeed charged with a felony, would be
56:10
Speaker 7: a pretty standard and not that surprising way of resolving,
56:14
Speaker 7: you know, a case like this one, at least outside
56:16
Speaker 7: of these facts.
56:17
Speaker 2: Well, Leah, I hope that someday in the near future,
56:20
Speaker 2: Donald Trump is indicted so that this conversation will wear
56:22
Speaker 2: well over the test of time. So thank you so
56:25
Speaker 2: much for joining us. It is always great to talk
56:27
Speaker 2: to you.
56:28
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
56:34
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Leah Lippman. And don't forget to
56:36
Speaker 1: follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram and TikTok, while
56:40
Speaker 1: it's still around, and at Pod Save America on Twitter.
56:44
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56:46
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56:51
Speaker 1: dropping us a review if you're so inclined. Everyone have
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Speaker 1: a great weekend. We'll see you next week. Hopefully the
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Speaker 1: indictment fairy will come. Have a great weekend. Bye, everyone.
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Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
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Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
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Speaker 1: Our producers are Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed
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Speaker 1: and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis
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Speaker 1: sound engineered the show. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz,
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Speaker 1: Sandy Gerard, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.
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Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
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Speaker 1: and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
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Speaker 1: slash podsaveamerica.