Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #120 Pushy Parents Are the Worst (Featuring Professor Wendy Grolnick)

Transcript

#120 Pushy Parents Are the Worst (Featuring Professor Wendy Grolnick) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Olympians said about their parents. And we have this idea
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: that Olympians would have really pressuring control and pushing parents,
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  Speaker 1: and some of them do. And those are the ones
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  Speaker 1: that we hear some stories about where things don't go well.
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  Speaker 1: Most of them said, my parents were just right behind me.
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  Speaker 1: They were not pushing me. They saw my passion and
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  Speaker 1: they were there to give me what I needed to
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  Speaker 1: pursue it. But they stood behind me, right behind me,
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  Speaker 1: not in front of me, pushing me.
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  Speaker 2: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a Happy
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  Speaker 2: Families podcast. My name is doctor Justin Colson. Thank you
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: so much for joining in. Well, we're doing things a
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  Speaker 2: little differently for the next little while. As you've probably
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  Speaker 2: noticed with our last podcast, we're in the middle of
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  Speaker 2: a series or we've just commenced a series of in
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  Speaker 2: depth interviews where I speak to guests, we learn, we
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  Speaker 2: have some fun, and we get into the nitty gritty
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  Speaker 2: of what can make parenting absolutely incredible and make families flourish.
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  Speaker 3: Well.
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  Speaker 2: Today's guest is Professor Wendy Rolnick, a mother, an author,
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  Speaker 2: and we're kind of kindred spirits and that we both
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  Speaker 2: work to help build happy families. And our area of
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  Speaker 2: research is very very closely aligned. Professor Rolnick's book The
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  Speaker 2: Psychology of Parental Control is one of my favorites, and
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  Speaker 2: Wendy is based out of the psychology department of Clark
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  Speaker 2: University in Massachusetts.
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  Speaker 3: She's taught there for nearly three decades.
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  Speaker 2: So I began by asking her about what she loves
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  Speaker 2: about her university and what family life.
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  Speaker 3: Looks like for her.
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  Speaker 1: It's a great little university because it is a research university,
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  Speaker 1: but it's small and it has a very petent community.
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  Speaker 1: It also has a big social justice component to it,
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  Speaker 1: and our motto is Challenge convention, Change our world, so
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  Speaker 1: it encourages people to think outside the box, which is
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  Speaker 1: which a really nice thing. Family wise. I have two
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  Speaker 1: almost grown children, two daughters, one twenty seven and one thirty,
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  Speaker 1: and actually have one of my daughters with me now
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  Speaker 1: during the pandemic who's between things and so patter here
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  Speaker 1: for a while, which has been which has been very
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  Speaker 1: nice and kind of a silver lining to all of this. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I've been married for thirty five years and parenting for
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  Speaker 1: thirty And you said.
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  Speaker 2: You've got two almost grown children, but then you said
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  Speaker 2: they're twenty seven and thirty.
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  Speaker 3: So when are they actually grown?
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  Speaker 1: That's a good question. They'll always be my children and
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  Speaker 1: so they'll never be grown in my eyes, and I
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  Speaker 1: guess in a certain way both they're forging their own paths.
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  Speaker 2: Wendy, we met at a conference. I think it was
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  Speaker 2: about three or four years ago. It was in British Columbia.
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  Speaker 2: We were saying at this gorgeous hotel on the water
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  Speaker 2: in Victoria, and I think it was about twenty seventeen.
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  Speaker 2: You and I had a great conversation about our mutual
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  Speaker 2: interest in raising happy families, and we both have a
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  Speaker 2: very strong interest in a theory in psychology known as
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  Speaker 2: self determination theory, and it's something that I've really built
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  Speaker 2: much of what I share with parents around. You've done
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  Speaker 2: a recent study built on self determination theory, and you
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  Speaker 2: found that parents who were really doing well with their families,
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  Speaker 2: And in fact, you looked at families across the board,
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  Speaker 2: so you weren't sort of saying, well, these ones are
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  Speaker 2: doing well and these ones aren't. You just got random
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  Speaker 2: families to come into the lab and fill in some
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  Speaker 2: surveys and then go away and do some things. You
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  Speaker 2: got them to do a handful of things, and in particularly,
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  Speaker 2: you found that when they did three things successfully, their
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  Speaker 2: families were happier and their children are more likely to thrive.
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  Speaker 2: So I wonder if you can step me through what
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  Speaker 2: those three things were and what they actually look like
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  Speaker 2: in practice from an applied you know, this is what
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  Speaker 2: parents need to do to do these three things.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've actually entered into the world of intervention, so
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  Speaker 1: we can tell you about how we've tried to help
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  Speaker 1: people move toward these three things. But yes, the three
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  Speaker 1: things are. One is and I know you know a
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  Speaker 1: lot about this, is support for autonomy. That is helping
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  Speaker 1: children to feel that they are kind of like behind
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  Speaker 1: their actions, they're the owner of their actions. They're not
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  Speaker 1: being pushed and coerced. Because we know that when people
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  Speaker 1: feel like they're being pushed and coerced that they are
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  Speaker 1: less happy and they're less likely to persevere in what
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  Speaker 1: they're doing and be motivated and follow their passions. So
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  Speaker 1: when you support autonomy and help children feel this way,
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  Speaker 1: you can do a number of things. And we've looked
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  Speaker 1: at different strategies that parents can use. So one is
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  Speaker 1: that you It all kind of starts with taking children's perspectives,
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  Speaker 1: thinking about where where are they coming from, how are
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  Speaker 1: they thinking about what they're doing, and trying to get
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  Speaker 1: into their heads and understand their perspectives.
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  Speaker 3: And that's really hot.
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  Speaker 2: You get into the morning rush and the morning routine
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  Speaker 2: and you've got to get the children out the door,
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  Speaker 2: and everything's going a little bit crazy in Haywire, and
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  Speaker 2: the children are non compliant, they don't want to get
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  Speaker 2: up and go to school, and they're feeling miserable or
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  Speaker 2: a bit lousy. And we don't tend to take that
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  Speaker 2: perspective in that moment because we're also running light. And
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  Speaker 2: if we don't get out the door on tom we're
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  Speaker 2: we're going to miss the lots at the bottom of
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  Speaker 2: the street. And if we don't get through those lots
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  Speaker 2: at exactly seven fourteen, that means that we're going to
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  Speaker 2: be stuck until seven twenty and then we're going to
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  Speaker 2: get the peak how traffic that's six minutes is, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it makes all the difference. And so we have we
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  Speaker 2: feel a lot of pressure ourselves, and we tend to
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  Speaker 2: transfer that into the family environment, right, and then we
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  Speaker 2: take away their autonomy and start to control them absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: And we've done some studies exactly on this stress makes
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  Speaker 1: it really hard to be autonomy supportive. But when you
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  Speaker 1: think about it, if you can take the perspective of
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  Speaker 1: the child and just give them the sense that you
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  Speaker 1: understand where they're coming from, they're going to be much
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  Speaker 1: more open to all the other things that you want
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  Speaker 1: them to do. So if you can just say, I
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  Speaker 1: understand that you'd much rather be listening to your iPad
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  Speaker 1: and playing on it and not getting ready and it
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  Speaker 1: feels really pushy to for have me start do this,
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  Speaker 1: you telling you to do it now, they'll be much
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  Speaker 1: more open to hearing well, but here's what we need
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  Speaker 1: to do. They hear you better when they know that
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  Speaker 1: you ta can take their perspective, understand them and providing
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  Speaker 1: them a little bit of empathy for where they're coming from.
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  Speaker 3: I say this to parents all the time.
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  Speaker 2: When you listen to a podcast or when you're sitting
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  Speaker 2: in a room with somebody like you or I and
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  Speaker 2: we're talking to you about that kind of thing, it
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  Speaker 2: all makes sense, right. We think, oh, yeah, I'm supposed
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  Speaker 2: to take a breath and just connect with their emotion
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  Speaker 2: and say, well, you're really struggling and you just wish
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  Speaker 2: that this didn't have to be this way, don't you
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  Speaker 2: Like that makes sense when we're having this conversation, But
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  Speaker 2: tomorrow morning, when somebody's going through it, that's the last
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  Speaker 2: thing you want to do. Like, it's exactly the opposite
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  Speaker 2: of what you want to do, because you're feeling the
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  Speaker 2: stress and pressure and you want to get that forward momentum.
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  Speaker 2: You don't want to sort of put the brakes on
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  Speaker 2: and sit down and hold the hand and look into
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  Speaker 2: their eyes and say you're having a tough time this morning,
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  Speaker 2: aren't you right?
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  Speaker 1: Right? And so there are things you can do when
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  Speaker 1: you're not in those very stressful moments that might make
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  Speaker 1: a difference for those stressful moments. So, for example, if
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  Speaker 1: you're having you know this is if you're had this
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  Speaker 1: problem every morning, when there isn't a problem going on
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  Speaker 1: and when it's a quiet time, you can sit down
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  Speaker 1: together and talk this out. So part of autonomy support
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  Speaker 1: is taking kids perspectives. Part of it is giving them choices,
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  Speaker 1: Part of it is problem solving together. And so you
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  Speaker 1: want to sit down and problem solve together and say,
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  Speaker 1: you know, mornings have been really rough. I know they're
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  Speaker 1: hard on you, I know it. It stinks when you
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  Speaker 1: have to hear me nag you in the morning, you
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  Speaker 1: just got up. Let's put our heads together to figure
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  Speaker 1: out what we can do. What are your thoughts. So
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  Speaker 1: a ton of support means getting kids input into problems
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  Speaker 1: that you're having and problem solving together. So yes, it's
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  Speaker 1: true at that moment that might not work. But if
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  Speaker 1: the child comes up with some great idea as well,
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  Speaker 1: you could wake me up five minutes earlier, or you
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  Speaker 1: could just knock at my door really quietly and let
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  Speaker 1: me know it's time. So you come up with this together.
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  Speaker 1: There Again, when you don't feel like somebody's yelling at
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  Speaker 1: you and nagging at you and coming and imposing themselves
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  Speaker 1: upon you, you're much more likely to understand, you know
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  Speaker 1: why you're doing it, and be in this together and
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  Speaker 1: problem solve together.
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  Speaker 3: I love it.
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  Speaker 2: We've got this. First thing is autonomy support. But there
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  Speaker 2: are three of these. And by the way, I think
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  Speaker 2: that at least for me, as I've watched how my
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  Speaker 2: parenting has changed over the last couple of decades raising
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  Speaker 2: my six kids, this for me is the lynchpin like
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  Speaker 2: stepping away from control and stepping towards supporting autonomy or
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  Speaker 2: empowering our children to find the solutions that are inside
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  Speaker 2: themselves to do well.
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  Speaker 3: That seems to be it.
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  Speaker 2: But there's two other things that you highlight that families
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  Speaker 2: that do best also emphasize, and those two things are
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  Speaker 2: structure and involvement. And in your research you found that
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  Speaker 2: this leads to the best outcomes comparatively compared to families
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  Speaker 2: that aren't doing this. So autonomy support, we've sort of
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  Speaker 2: talked about that briefly, But what a structure and involvement.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So structure is really connected to having kids have
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  Speaker 1: a sense of competence. So we put it into place
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  Speaker 1: to help kids feel like they know how to succeed
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  Speaker 1: in what you're asking them to do, or they know
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  Speaker 1: how to succeed in the world. And so structure is
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  Speaker 1: really the information you need to be successful. And what
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  Speaker 1: you do is you set up the environment to increase
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  Speaker 1: the probability that kids are going to feel competent. And
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  Speaker 1: you can do that by having just really clear expectations
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  Speaker 1: this is what we need to be doing, this is
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  Speaker 1: what I expect, and guidelines for how to do that,
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  Speaker 1: feedback about how you're doing. So if the you know
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  Speaker 1: the job is to to clean your room, you know
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  Speaker 1: what's expected how often what it means to clean your room.
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  Speaker 1: You know what to do, so that then you can
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  Speaker 1: children can plan their behavior and say, oh, I know,
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  Speaker 1: I know how to be successful here. So that's that's
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  Speaker 1: really important. The trick is you want to connect that
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  Speaker 1: with autonomy support. You don't want just to impose structure
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  Speaker 1: on kids and say this is how we're doing it.
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  Speaker 1: These are the rules, this is the schedule. Yeah, we've
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  Speaker 1: heard a lot during the pandemic about you have to
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  Speaker 1: have a schedule, but kids can have input into that
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  Speaker 1: schedule and feel like you together you own some of
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  Speaker 1: these guidelines and rules, and that's when it's they're going
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  Speaker 1: to be both feeling competent, like this is what I
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  Speaker 1: need to do, but also feeling I mean you use
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  Speaker 1: the word empowered, which is a good word, that you
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  Speaker 1: have some ownership of this and it's not just something
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  Speaker 1: that's coming from above.
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  Speaker 2: And so the oddea here from what I've written in
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  Speaker 2: your research and other researchers who have played in this
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  Speaker 2: area is ideally, as we create a sense of structure,
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  Speaker 2: it's not just about the routine and the schedule. It's
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  Speaker 2: actually it's about the way we have small winds in
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  Speaker 2: our lives doing all of the things that matter. But
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  Speaker 2: the way that we create the structure ideally will be
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  Speaker 2: in an autonomy supportive way.
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  Speaker 3: So we'll sit down with that. You want to say,
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  Speaker 3: we have a little bit of a problem.
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  Speaker 2: You've probably noticed this is happening in our evenings, this
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  Speaker 2: is happening on ours Saturday mornings or our sundays are
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  Speaker 2: just not working. They're not getting the quality family time
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  Speaker 2: that we want. What can we do together to make
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  Speaker 2: this work? And then in a supportive, non controlling way,
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  Speaker 2: you develop a sort of a sense of structure. Or
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: you know, we're paying all this money for piano lessons,
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  Speaker 2: but it seems like you just don't really get excited
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  Speaker 2: about practicing until twenty minutes before we have to run
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  Speaker 2: out the door to see the teacher.
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  Speaker 3: And this is not working.
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  Speaker 2: So it's really about having these conversations and bringing the
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  Speaker 2: children in so that they can solve their own problems
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  Speaker 2: and create those structures and supports.
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  Speaker 3: Is that how you're describing it.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's really well said. Sometimes when we describe
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  Speaker 1: this to parents, they say, oh, well, what if they
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  Speaker 1: want to get up at twelve twelve in the afternoon,
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  Speaker 1: that's not acceptable. It's okay for you as a parent
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  Speaker 1: to sort of have your guidelines within which you are working,
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  Speaker 1: and you're able to say, well that you came up
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  Speaker 1: where this isn't quite going to work because blah blah blah,
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  Speaker 1: but here's some guidelines within which we can choose. You know,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: any time between eight and ten is okay to walk
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  Speaker 1: the dog. So what do you choose? And you give
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  Speaker 1: a reason for why twelve o'clock's not going to work.
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  Speaker 1: So it doesn't mean that you're relinquishing your role as
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  Speaker 1: an authority. There are some things that need to be
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  Speaker 1: decided within certain limits, but you can still have a
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  Speaker 1: sense of input and problem solving together within those guidelines.
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  Speaker 2: And I found that work regardless of whether a child
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  Speaker 2: is two or twenty two. In fact, my wife, I'm
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: not going to give away her age, but you know
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  Speaker 2: she's in her forties now, and we just had a
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: recent conversation about the potential of a renovation at home,
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  Speaker 2: and it was the same conversation, so what do you
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  Speaker 2: want to do? Ah, that sounds like it would be
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  Speaker 2: really great. I wish we could do that, but we
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: need to look at the budget and not not that
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  Speaker 2: I'm the person that makes the decisions. It's a joint thing.
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  Speaker 2: But ultimately it was still a conversation where what she
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: wanted to do with this renovation was well beyond what
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: was within what the bank was allowing us to go
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  Speaker 2: and do. And so I had to say to her,
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  Speaker 2: how do you think that's going to go if we
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: go to the bank and we say we want that
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: much rather than this munch and the bank's providing the limits.
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  Speaker 2: But it's about that conversation, and then Kylie was able
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: to say, oh, well, I guess I guess I'm not
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: going to have this accessory, and I'm not going to
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: have this extension, and I'm not going to have this
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: do dad. Whether we're talking to children or adults, it
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  Speaker 2: seems like that process is very much let me listen.
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  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, you still get
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: to be the parent, right you're not raising the white
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  Speaker 2: flag and surrendering and saying, well, whatever you want, kids,
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  Speaker 2: I'm just going to let you create your own structures
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  Speaker 2: and do it all yourself. It's very much a partnership
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  Speaker 2: and it has to work for the family exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And one other benefit that maybe Kylie doesn't need but
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  Speaker 1: children need, is that the art of negotiation is a
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  Speaker 1: wonderful thing for children to learn. I think we've had
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  Speaker 1: this idea that you should be like, once you say something,
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  Speaker 1: that's it and it can't change and you don't get
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  Speaker 1: children's input. You have to be consistent. Well, you can
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  Speaker 1: have a negotiation within these guidelines, and that's a skill
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  Speaker 1: that kids really need. It turns out from research shows
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: that they don't learn it from their peers. Their peers
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  Speaker 1: have no investment in making sure that they are good negotiators.
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  Speaker 1: You learn it from your parents, where they say, oh, okay,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give a little and you're going to
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: give a literal and here we can meet somewhere in
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: the middle. So that's an added benefit of taking this
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: approach as well.
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  Speaker 2: So we've got autonomy support, where we're really saying to
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  Speaker 2: the children, I want to work with you as you
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: become volitional and control your own life, with me just
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: providing some gentle guidance to keep you inter propriate boundaries.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: We've got structure, which means we're going to set things
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: up so that our children can feel competent. I feel
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  Speaker 2: like they're having small wins and have a sense that
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: they're in control of their environment, they're able to develop
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: a sense of mastery. And the third one was involvement.
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  Speaker 2: You found that families that are doing really well have
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  Speaker 2: high levels of involvement compared to families that aren't doing
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  Speaker 2: so well.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, whether it's involvement in school, or it's involvement
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  Speaker 1: in more generally, in asking about what's going on and
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  Speaker 1: doing things together as a family, doing family routines, all
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  Speaker 1: of that really makes the difference in terms of kids
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: feelings secure and connected.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I want to go back to autonomy support for a minute.
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  Speaker 2: This is I think, as I said before, this is
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: to me the lynchpin of what parents who are really
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: getting it right really focus on. They step away from control.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: So when I talk to parents about autonomy support, because
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I have stepped out of the research thing and I
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: don't have to use all the academic woods, I tend
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: to use woods that are maybe a little bit more
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: practical for parents to say, oh, I've just got to
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: do A, B and C. So I talk about it
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: in terms of the three ease of effective discipline. I
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: talk about exploring, explaining, and empowering.
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  Speaker 3: So when we.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Explore, we do that first step that you said where
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: we try to see the world through their eyes. We say, why,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: you're really struggling with this. This is a really hard thing.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: You don't like what I've asked you to do, or
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: whatever it might be, and then we spend a little
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: bit of time explaining so, well, it's important that you
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: understand why this matters. You know, we have screen time
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: limits because if you spend too much time on screens,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: then A B and C it will occur.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: You know, we don't have enough time to be together.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: There's an opportunity cost where you're not doing the other
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: things that matter are so much in your life, like
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: getting your school work done, or being physically fit, or
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: doing your music practice, or being a part of our family.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: And then we empower them.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: We say, so, if I'm getting it right, this is
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: really important to you because of A, B and C,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: but de E and F for the reasons that I'm struggling.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: So what are we going to do together? That's kind
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: of the autonomy support process the way I describe it.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: What do you think is the hardest part of actually
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: doing this without children? So when I was looking at
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: your research, you talked about parents becoming stuck in unhelpful
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: patents that kind of lead to pressure and control and
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: palace struggles. So what are those patents that lead those
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: palace struggles and how do parents get better at autonomy support?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, and I
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: would just add to autonomies before we sometimes forget that
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: autonis are just isn't just about the discipline and about
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: the way we deal with problems, but it's also supporting kids' initiations,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: you know, for things that they're interested in and passionate about,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: so of being kind of right behind them rather than
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: in front of them, and sort of supporting what is
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: fun and exciting for kids. My answer to your question
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: about what gets in the way was very much based
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: on my own experience with my kids. So I'm someone
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: who's been studying this since well before I had children,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: and I would watch parents in our studies, you know,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: we had My my first studies were with babies. We
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: were with twelve month olds and moms interacting with their
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: babies and the moms taking the hands, the kid's hands
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: and putting them, you know, moving them, and you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: saying do it like this, and they were so invested
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: in their kids doing well that they were very Some
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: of them were very controlling, and I looked at them.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I would never I would never do that. But when
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: you had your own kids, you realize this investment in
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: them doing well is so strong. You don't want them
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: to fail you You love them, You want them to succeed.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: You want them to be the best that they can be.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: They want to want to have every opportunity, And that feeling,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: it for me was so visceral. It would be like
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I would feel it in my in my in my
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: heart and in my stomach, and it would make you
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: want to impose your your what you you know is
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: going to be the best thing. You know, don't wear
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: that dress, nobody's going to like it, you know, or
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: do your homework this way or whatever it was. You
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: just really want them to succeed. And so I realized,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you know, I started to do a bunch of research
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: on just this issue that we get. We're really invested it.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Not because we're bad people or we're parents get such
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: a bad rap sometimes that they're egotistical and narcissistic. No,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: all parents have this feeling that they want their kids
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: to succeed because they love them. Nature gave that to us.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So that we could do all this sacrificing for our kids.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: It's and we feel it as love. And so when
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: we get into this place where we get hooked into
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I know the best thing, and I can't afford to
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: have my child fail because of our own biology, but
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: also because of the competition that's all around us. I mean,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: the kids are just competing all the time, and that
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: hooks us in. And I think that's when we get
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: really controlling and pushy and pressuring our kids to do
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: things when in our hearts maybe we know that that's
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: not the best thing to do. So people who who
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: really like this theory and would love your three e'es
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: find themselves being really pushy and controlling. So and then
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: you're in this power struggle because our natural tendency when
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: we're controlled is to push back. We're trying to get
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: our autonomy back, and sometimes we do the opposite, doesn't
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: get our autonomy back, But when we feel controlled, we
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: push back. So then you get into these power struggles
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: where I don't want to wear that dress, but that
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: dress is kids are going to like you if you
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: wear that dress, and that's going to be the best dress.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: And you're back and forth, and you're thinking, how did
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: I get How did I get in this place in
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the first place.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: I'm really interested.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I'd love to go through the developmental progression just briefly
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: on this. So you talked about parents who are controlling
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: with the infants, you know, the twelve month or right
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: a month old children, and with the toddlers. And it's
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: not because the child is now necessarily doing the wrong
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: thing quote unquote wrong thing, you know, being challenging, because
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: at twelve months old they're not going to be particularly
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: challenging or eighteen months. Like you said, this well intentioned
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: desire for them to do well. But what did you
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: find in terms of outcomes when you compare the children
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: who are being controlled even as infants and toddlers by
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: well intentioned parents who just want their children to be
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: really good because you know, you're in the psychology department
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and you're being observed by this researcher, and you want
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: your children to be in front of the curve, be
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: better than all the other kids. You want them to excel,
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: and so you dive in and start showing them how
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: to do it. I mean, it makes sense that parents
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: would be controlling, especially in that situation. But obviously there
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: were some parents who were and some who weren't. What
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: were the outcomes for the children in terms of their
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: motivation to participate in the activity or the curiosity about
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: the activity?
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: You know, how far did you study them? What did
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: you find?
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Just as a general summary of all of those various
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: studies that you've done in that area.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in those first studies where we actually just gave
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: the parents it a task with their children and we said,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: just sit next to him while he plays with it,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: we didn't. We weren't even pushing them to do something. Uh.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: And some parents, like you said solve the problem for
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the child and move their arms and were very directive,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and other parents were sort of waiting, you know, stepping
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: back and waiting to be needed and allowing their children
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: to explore a little bit and things like that. And
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: then what we did was we had the children introduced
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: the children to a kind of problem solving toy working
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: with an experimenter, and mom was sitting on the side
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: and just asked, sort of said make this work. So
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and we looked at how persistent the kids were at
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: trying to solve the problems, and we found that the
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: ones who the children of the parents who were more
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: controlling and more solving problems for them were less motivated
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: when they were kind of on their own to try
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to solve this problem. So that was a really important finding.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: And even at twelve months. Then we followed those kids
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: up at twenty months, and the kids, again, the kids
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: are the more controlling parents were not only less motivated
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: to work on independent tasks, but they were less competent
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: at them in solving those tasks. So it did look
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: like there are some outcomes of solving problems for kids
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: and being really controlling.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: That's fascinating.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: So if we were to bring that into the school years,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Let's say we've got our children who are now in
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: their last three or four years of high school and
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: they've got parents who are controlling them and saying, you
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: need to study harder, you need to do this. These
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: are the grades that you need, otherwise you're not going
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: to get into the university degree that's important to us.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: We've decided together, I've decided for you. Maybe you've decided
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: yourself that you want to be a lawyer, or you
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: want to be a vet, or you want to be
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: a dentist, or any of these courses that are very
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: very very competitive to get into when the child, the
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: student is feeling controlled, or maybe it's a ten year
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: who wants to be on the representative soccer team, or
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: maybe it's the twelve year old who wants to win
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the Aestedford, whatever it might be. And let's argue to
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: keep it really balanced that the parents are doing the
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: best that they can. They're not being those really autocratic
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: parents who are saying you've got to, you've got to.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: The children actually have some degree of desire here. The
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: kids actually do want to get into those university courses
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: or get onto the team, or play well in Theirtedford.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So the children are balanced and healthy and wanting to
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: do well, but there's still a really strong push from
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: the parents. You haven't done your practice today. You didn't
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: look like you're tried hard in practice. I haven't seen
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: you study for the last three days. You're not going
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: to get the grade. What does that research with toddlers
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: and infants tell us about those children when they're fifteen
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: years down the track or ten years down the track,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: and is there other research specifically about those age groups
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: in those kinds of context, and what does that tell.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Us yes, there is some research following up kids into
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: high school and and there is some continuity there in
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: terms of kids who had very controlling parents not being
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: less autonomously motivated. And it might come out in things
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: like choice points where you have the choice to do
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: something more challenging or do something easier, you might choose
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the easier thing, or it might be you're less likely
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to want to go on in school or something like that.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: So it may be while you have that pressure on you,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: you are doing some achieving, but when you're left at
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: the place where you're trying to figure out what it
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: really interests, you know, maybe finding more that you're not
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: sure what you're interested in. You've been sort of on
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: this path for so long, going to the next thing.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: We're doing it for the next thing. We're doing it
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: for the next thing. Do your work so that you
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: can get into the next thing, but you're not really
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: building upon your own interests and passions. And it's kind
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: of interesting. When I was writing my first book, I
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: looked at a lot of the writings, yes.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I'm holding it up right now, The Psychology of Friend
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: of Control, it's one of my favorite parents books.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I looked at what Olympians said about their parents. And
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: we have this idea that Olympians would have really pressuring
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: control and pushing parents, and some of them do, and
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: and those are the ones that we hear some stories
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: about where things don't go well. Most of them said,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: my parents were just right behind me. They were not
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: pushing me. They saw my passion and they were there
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: to give me what I needed to pursue it. But
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: they stood behind me, right behind me, not in front
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: of me, pushing me. My daughter says that my daughter
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: was a tennis player in high school and in college
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: had a coach who was just very right behind her.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: He would say, he would she would call him after
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: a match. She would and he would say had to
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: do and she would say I won or I lost
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: in either way. And then if she said I lost,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: you would say did you have fun? And she would
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: she would say yes, and he would say, dyna mate,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: and he said that. And I think it's quite clear
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: that if that had been if we had poshed, If
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: we had poshed, she never would have pursued it. It was
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: her passion. And you know, you can get some achievement,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: but you don't get a passion unless it's in the person,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: and you can definitely squash a passion by putting a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: lot of extrinsic pushes onto it.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: So there's two things that I want to quickly mention
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: in relation to what you've just highlighted. The first is
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: a research paper that came out, I think probably about
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: two or three years ago now that looked at student
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: athletes and these were in high school. This was not,
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: you know, young adults, this was teenagers, and it was
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: actually looking at the likelihood of cheating drug cheats.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Particularly.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: What they found was that it wasn't about the child
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and their attitudes, and it wasn't about the coach and
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: their attitudes. It was about the parent and their attitudes.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: And the parents who were highly controlling and really pushing
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: hard they were the ones that had children who are
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: much more likely to make unethical choices and unethical decisions.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: It's almost like that extrinsic control, specifically from the parent.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: I want to do so well for my parent, seemed
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: to be some sort of a predictor that led to
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: less positive choices on the part of the athlete to
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: excel to do well, Whereas when the parents were less
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: pushy and said we're here to support you, not to
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: control you. The children tended to make better decisions. That's
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: the first point. The second one was just on your
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: daughter and her tennis experience. Because we have six children,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: and because of my background, I get to experiment a
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: lot with my children right and everything I get wrong
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: with the first few, I get to try to get
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: right with the last ones. We decided we just keep
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: having kids until we started to get it right.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: And when it comes to music, we've always loved music
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: and wanted our children to have an appreciation and an
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: ability when it comes to music. What we found with
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: our first two children was we would tell them to
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: go and practice the piano, go and practice the guitar,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: or go and practice or practice whatever for thirty minutes.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Now off you go, go and do your practice. You've
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: got thirty minutes going to get it done. We found
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: that they watched the clock for thirty minutes. We found
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: that the quality of their practice was poor, and both
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: of those first two children dropped out of music. They
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: didn't appreciate, they didn't like it, they didn't have the discipline,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: they didn't want it. We thought that there was something
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: faulty about their character. We thought, well, they're just faulty children.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: We clearly you know it wasn't ours. It was the children,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: for sure. But we changed our approach with children three
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: and four and so on, and our approach with our
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: subsequent children has been, Gee, I love hearing you play
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: that guitar. Oh when you sing, the whole house feels different.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: It's been a while since I've heard you on the piano.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: How are you going with that song? And those gentle,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: supportive prompts lead the children back to their instruments, and
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: they don't look at the clock. They'll sit down and
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: play for as long as they feel inclined to play.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: And sometimes it will only be three or four minutes.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it'll be an hour or an hour and a half.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: And their music has become a source of joy because
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: there's autonomy, support rather than control.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: That's a wonderful, wonderful story. Wonderful story. So many people
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: have the stories of the piano lessons that went away,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: and so it's really good to hear that story.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the opposite of Tiger Mum.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: I remember hearing about the Tiger Mum by Amy Chow
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: and how she sat on the seat and made her
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: daughter cry and cry and cry for hours, but she
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: wasn't getting up until she finished. And yes, her daughter
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: became you know, the equivalent of the concert pianist or whatever.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: But there was no joy in it, and she wanted
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: to stop. And I just I don't want my kids
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: to feel like that. I want them to love what
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: they do. Now, I asked you what sort of leads
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: to these power struggles? And we've talked about that at length,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: and I asked, also, how can parents get out of
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: those power struggles? It seems like we need to try
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: to be autonomy supportive by having conversations out of the
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: moment and problem solving together.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, I think when a little of it is
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: self reflective, for me, it feels visceral when you feel
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: that sense that I'm I'm I'm feeling really pressured to push,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I'm feeling you know. I then to sort of to
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: be a little self perfected to say, where is that
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: coming from? Why am I feeling that way? What? You know,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: what are really the risks of allowing my child to
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: uh not play the piano today or this week? Or
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: what are the risks of that? What where is that
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: coming from? And sort of be interested in it and
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: realize it's just a feeling. It's a feeling. It's an
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable feeling sometimes, but you don't have to necessarily act
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: on it, and you can sort of take a step
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: back and say, you know, what would be what are
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: the consequences if I allow this or I ask the opinion?
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: And of course that's easier said than done when you're
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: in a stressed moment. But but but sometimes if you're
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: you know, you can can think about what really are
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: the consequences here and how can I make a better
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: decision or the best decision in terms of the situation.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: And I think part of it also lies for me
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: in having faith in this and a theory of why
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: people do what they do. And in this case, what
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: we do when our intervention is is sort of give
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: people a theory so that they can have some faith
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: in it. If you really believe that people will follow
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: their passions, if they are supported in autonomously, then you'll
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: be able to say, Okay, you know the guitar wasn't
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: for you, and you'll find something else. But you have
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: to have that faith that people will find their interests
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: if you allow that to happen, and people really will
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: do better if they're supported in their autonomy, because I
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: think what happens sometimes is you say, oh God, if
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: I if I don't make her take that ap horse,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: and if I don't make her study right now. Now
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: you know it's going to be bad for her, But
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: you still have to have faith that if I solve this
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: problem for her, if I control exactly what she's doing,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: that it won't be such a good thing in the
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: long term, because in the short term it might feel
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: like it is. And so having faith in a theory
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: of human nature and is for me really important because
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: you get tested as a parent all the time.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I love what you said there, Wendy, particularly this idea
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: that controlling parenting actually comes from fear. It's almost like
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: we're we're fearful that things are not going to be okay.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: We're fearful that everything's going to go wrong, and therefore
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: we step in with control because we feel like it's
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: our duty.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: To fix it and we have the power to do so.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: And what I'm.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Hearing you say really clearly is if we step back
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: and provide the right environment for our children where they
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: feel safe, we're not raising the white flag and saying, oh, well, fine,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: if you don't want to swim, if you don't want
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: to play tennis, if you don't want to learn how
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: to play the musical instrument, We're just not going to
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: do anything for you anymore.
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: And you know you're going to end up in your
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: room and you're going to be staring at a screen
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: for the.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Rest of your life. That's not going to work out
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: very well. That's kind of that fear paradigm. But instead
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to look at our children and say, well, I guess
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: that didn't work out. You let us know what you
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: think might work out, and we'll support you in that instead,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: and then step back with the trust that in the
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: right environment they actually will exactly.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Trust is a really good word, trust in your kids
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: and also trust in the developmental process.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: If you created a simple list of outcomes that we
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: see in children who have parents who are autonomy supportive
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: and providing structure and building involvement, what would the evidence
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: point to just that, You know, what does the science
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: say happens when we do this stuff consistently?
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: How do our kids turn out great?
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So kids a time whose parents are more autonomy sort
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: of will be more self regulating and their behavior, whether
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: it's in school, they'll be more likely to be uh,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: more spontaneously engaging, and less likely to have to be pushed.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: They're going to be they're going to be more self regulating.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: People find that autonomy support is associated with better self
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: esteem because when people are solving problems for you all
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the time, you're thinking, well, I must may not very
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: good at this, So so building self esteem, being more
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: active in their coping. So when they have setbacks, my
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: parents are more tiomy supportive, the kids will be more
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: actively trying to solve the problems and engaging and engaging
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: them rather than throwing the the bad exam into the
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: garbage can and never looking at it again.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: So it's kind of like they're becoming more resilient.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: It's it's like it's a resilience booster, it's a it's
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: a growth strategy exactly.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: And also feeling more in control of their successes and
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: failures that they can have an impact. And finally also
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: feeling more secure their attachment. So when parents are trying
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: to sort of kids feel more like they you know
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: that they're they can count on their parents to be
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: there when they need them, and more secure and that
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: enables you to then explore your world a little bit
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: more with this backdrop of support.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: You know, when I decided to step out of university,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I've been working as a lecturer, I'd got my postgraduate
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: qualifications with my doctorate, I've been working as a researcher
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: and as a lecturer. And I remember, I mean, by
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: this point, I'm in my mid thirties, right, But I
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: remember being so nervous as I made this decision that
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: I wanted to step away from that and start talking
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: to parents on a full time basis and write books
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. I remember talking with my
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: wife and I even got in touch with my parents,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: and none of the three people that I spoke to
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: said anything negative or necessarily positive. What they each did
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: instead was they supported my time, and they gave me
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: the confidence to back myself, knowing that I just I
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: had their support. Okay, Well, if that's what you feel
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: good about, we support you, we encourage you. And that's
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: what actually gave me the courage to step out and
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: do it. I think if my parents had been controlling,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: or if my wife had said, what are you doing
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: that's ridiculous, it probably would have had a profound impact
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: on the outcome in both the short term and the
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: long term. I know that I'm making this about me
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: now there's a bit of therapy going on, but I
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: love the way this works. So, Wendy, you mentioned that
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: at Clark University, part of the motto is that you
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: challenge convention, and I feel as though a lot of
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: what we've talked about today really does challenge the common
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: convention of what the standard parenting programs that are out
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: there about. There's so much control in so many of
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: the big parenting programs, including the global ones. So when
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: you think about the research that you've done over the
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: last thirty plus years into families, what's the most powerful
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: thing that you've learned, and how has it challenged convention
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: and helped you to be a bit of a better
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Wendy Gronik.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. I think
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: in terms of parent the work with parents, I'm very
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: sensitive to the negative stereotypes and raps about parents, and
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: my experience working with parents is that they all want
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the best for their kids there, you know, and they're
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: doing the things they do with that in mind, and
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: and so uh so it's really important to not be
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: judging of of of how parents are acting and understanding
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: that behind that is is is wanting the best for
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: their kids and and and in all the situations that
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: we have, we can we can find that and be
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: and really be very supportive and positive ourselves.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: I love that. I love that. Yeah.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Well, to conclude our conversation, when and it's been so
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: wonderful talking to you, I ask five rapid fire questions
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: and I'm excited to hear your answers. So if we
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: asked your two children their favorite thing to do with you,
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: or given that they're in the late twenties now, their
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: favorite memories of you because they're older, what would they say?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: Favorite thing to do with mom and dad?
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. The other day my daughter, my
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: older daughter who's thirty now, said to me, so, when
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: we were little, you let us do whatever we wanted.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: And I don't think I let them do whatever they want,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: but she gave this example of something so funny. Thing
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: that my younger daughter wanted to do. She wanted to
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: every week she had. She wanted to give an award
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: to one of my older daughters, the friend's parents. It's
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: the nicest parent of the week something else, and I
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: actually and she'd got some flowers and she wanted We
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: went to the house, we gave the flowers and she said,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: why did you let her do that? That was very strange,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: And I said, she was so passionate about it was
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: out of compassion. Why wouldn't I Why wouldn't I let
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: her do that? So they do have this sense that
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: that that I followed them and sometimes and and that's
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: a really nice thing, and allowed them to follow there
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: sometimes silly or funny interests and cookie interests. So they
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: probably say that, so.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: What's being you a trickiest parenting miment.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: It's tricky to be a motivation researcher on parenting with
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: with children because they actually at a certain point they
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: read my book and they would say things like they
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: would use my language and they would say, Mom, you're
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: being controlling, you can you can't, you're not practicing what
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: your page. And so sometimes when we were dealing with
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: you know, tricky things in teenagerhood about curfew and things
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: like that, they would use use the language against me. I, well,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to provide structure, and I think just
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: also just trying to stay true to what I believe,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: but tested all the time with those moments where I
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: got hooked into wanting wanting to make sure everything turned
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: out okay, and couldn't. I couldn't do that all the
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: time I have.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: That happened to me all the time.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: First of all, I feel like I'm supposed to be
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: the perfect parent and I get it wrong. But secondly,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: my children, many times, as teenagers particularly, but even even
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: some of the younger ones, have said, Dad, you're supposed
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: to be a parenting expert, and they throw it back.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Out and I'm like, oh my goodness, you got me. Okay.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: Question pressure, so much pressure. Question number three.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: If you could spend an hour with your kids at
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: any age at all, let's say tomorrow afternoon, at three o'clock,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: they're going to walk into your living room and they're
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: going to be that magical age.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: What age would you pick? And why I would pick?
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: How they are exactly now every for me, every stage,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: every time, every time they grow. I'm just wowed by
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: who they are as you know and so, and the
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: way in which we can interact now as friends and
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: colleagues and equals and a parent child, but so right now,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I think would be would be my pick. I just
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: love interacting with them as adults.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: Great.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: So question number four of the five, No matter how
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: good life has been and how glad you are to
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: be in the moment right now, what are you most
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: looking forward to as a mom?
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Oh? Gosh, to be honest, grandkids. Of course, it's going
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: to be a while when I'm trying not to say anything,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: because that's not.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: You don't want to no pressure, no control, just let them,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: you know, make up their mind when they're ready.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: We're just seeing them settled in whatever interests them and happy,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: and so just seeing.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: That move along beautiful.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: And the last question, which is my favorite, if you
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: could go back to Wendy Grolnik as a young mom
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: with no experience at this parenting thing at all, what
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: one piece of advice would you give yourself and how
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: did you learn how valuable that was.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: It's actually a piece of advice that I give parents,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: and I try not to give cho uch of advice,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: but when when we work with them, is that to
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: see every setback that your child has as an opportunity
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: for them to learn something. And so I and I
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: wish I had known that at the time for this
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: is just an example. There was one year that my
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: daughter at the school that that that my older daughter
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: was at. The principal would say, you can't ask for
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: a particular teacher. That was a rule, but apparently everybody
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: did and I just didn't realize it so so so
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: we always got the new teacher. So one year, I'm
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: a rule follower that way. So one year she got
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: this teacher that was just really not knowledge well it
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: was a friend of a friend or something like that.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: She only lasted a year, but she really set the
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: kids back in the sense that she really didn't know
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: what they had learned last year. They were learning old things.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: And at the time I was thinking, you know, I
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: should really do something and change her class, and you know,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: this is terrible and she's going to be behind well
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that year because that all the other teachers were giving
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: were producing plays in their classrooms and this teacher didn't.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: My older daughter actually asked the teacher, can I write
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: a play and that the school can put off? And
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: she put on this play. She wrote the play, she
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: put on the play in her class. She developed a
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: philanthropic project that year, and so growth happens in the
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: strangest places, and so if I engineered that to get
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: her out of it, that never would have happened. And
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: so the so the opportunities that of helping your kids
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: deal with whatever is in front of them in an
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: autonomy supportive way and learn those skills, and you just
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: never know what's going to be the growth opportunity. So
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: when parents come in and say this is happening, and
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's good, this is a great opportunity
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: for you to teach your child that you can get
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: through this. I don't think I knew that, But if
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: I had known that, I probably wouldn't have believed it.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: So but I wish I wish I had and I
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: do try to convey that to parents that it's all
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: just a learning opportunity. Thank goodness, this bad thing happened,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: or this challenge happened because your child's still a home
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: and they're not in college yet where they're not going
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: to have you there to help them through it.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Wendy, so very grateful for you being so generous with
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: your time and with your expertise.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: Today.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful. It's great to have the conversation. So I'm
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: tremendously thankful it's been.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I hope it was useful.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I hope that you've gotten some wonderful insight into Wendy
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Ronick as a result of this Parenting in Perspective podcast.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Wendy's a wonderful communicator and has some brilliant thoughts around
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: how we can support and encourage our kids without pressure
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: and coercion.
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: Her books are well.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: Worth looking up, and I think they'd be a great
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: resource for any parent's library. Before I tell you about
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: my next interview, can I ask you to jump into
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, but preferably Apple podcasts, and
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: leave a review. Just a five star review will be fine.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: If you want to leave a one star review, just
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: keep that to yourself. We don't need those ones, but
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: any five star reviews are welcome. Jump into Apple podcasts.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: The more you tell people how much you love the podcast,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: the more people will discover it and get to participate
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: in great conversations.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: Like we've just had.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: So please feel free to dive in Apple podcasts, leave
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: a rating and a review, and let people know how
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: you're enjoying the podcasts and why I hope you'll join
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: me next time. Episode three of the Parenting in Perspective
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: podcast is with Jessica Rowe.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: I was someone who I'd grown up with a mum
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: who has mental illness, so I thought I understood mental illness.
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: Mum and I had been very public about her mental
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: illness and had advocacy work for Beyond Blue. My mum
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: has bipolar, so my message up until that point publicly
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: had been there should be no shame in mental illness.
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: We need to talk about it like any other physical illness.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: You've probably heard of Jessica Row. She's all over our TVs.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: She's been in the media for a long long time,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: and she's been a wonderful friend and supporter of the
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: work that I do to help build happier families. I'll
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: be talking with jess about her IVF journey, the importance
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: of our own.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Story, and mental health.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: It's a really important conversation and I can't wait to
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: share it with you. That's Jessica Row on the next
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Parenting in Perspective podcast, a Happy Families podcast. If you'd
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: like more information on how to access more premium content,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: visit happyfamilies dot com dou and click on memberships