Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 418] Black Dog: Rock, Addiction & Recovery with Erica Kent

Transcript

[EP 418] Black Dog: Rock, Addiction & Recovery with Erica Kent · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: One of the things in treatment they tell you is
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: the disease is doing push-ups while you're sober, strengthening itself.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: And so when you go back, you're just picking up
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: where you left off. And that proved true for me.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Within a very short time, I was under the spell
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: and couldn't stop. I mean, I got my ass handed
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: to me, basically. And so I developed a much healthier
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: fear of it.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: We're totally booked. Rock and roll! Wow.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I think I'll leave you to your reading. Little Hans
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: says it's time to rock and roll.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Rock and roll! We are totally booked. Welcome back to
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Booked on Rock. Conversations with authors, musicians, and insiders revealing
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, albums, and artists.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I'm Eric Senech. A big thank you to everybody who
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: supports Booked on Rock on Patreon. Backstage past members can
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: now get every episode, both audio... and video completely commercial-free,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: along with early access to new episodes. If you would
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: like to grab the backstage pass, it is just $ 5
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: a month. Click the link in the show notes or
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: go to BookedOnRock.com. Now, on to our guest, Erica Kent.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Her debut novel, Black Dog, is a raw and darkly
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: funny coming-of-age story that follows Jessica Ryder from an 11-year-old
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: grieving John Lennon's death through the chaos of addiction, loss,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and ultimately recovery in 1980s Boston. Erica joins me to
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: talk about capturing the contradictions of growing up in that era,
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  Speaker 2: creating Jessica's fiercely distinctive voice, and why the black dog
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: of addiction never completely disappears. Welcome to the podcast, Erica.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Before we get into Jessica's story, where did Black Dog
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: begin for you? Was there a character, a memory, image,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: or idea that first made you realize that, you know what,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: there's a novel here?
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I keep forgetting to mention this on other interviews, but
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the song Black Dog, the Zeppelin song Black Dog, I
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: pictured playing in a liquor store where this young girl
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: is waiting in line to buy some booze, illegally, obviously.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: And that was kind of the beginning, the first sort
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: of image of, and the guy behind the counter as well,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: his sort of dented face, those were the things that
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I pictured. And I had that song in my head.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of music in the book, too.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: But I think that's where it started.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: There are two dogs in the novel. There's Boomer and
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: the Black Dog, of course. Now, the Black Dog begins
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: as something frightening, but also becomes strangely familiar and comforting
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: to Jessica. Talk about the two dogs and what does
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: the Black Dog figure ultimately represent?
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Well, Boomer, the neighborhood dog, is just kind of this affable,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: lovable dog that roams the neighborhood. And that would have
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: been probably more indicative of the time when I grew
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: up where, you know, neighborhood dogs would just kind of
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: roam around in the 70s and the 80s. But Black
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Dog is, you know, the novel opens where Black Dog
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: is finally caught, Jessica, in her dream. And... you know,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: she's wondering, she's in a way she's frightened and in
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: a way she's fascinated. And it's sort of about how
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Black Dog is really the embodiment of addiction and how
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: addiction is, you know, euphoria producing for the drugs or
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: euphoria producing for the addict, but also, as we know, dangerous.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: And so there's this kind of, tantalizing um attraction to
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: black dog but then also a fear a healthy fear
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: i suppose and the idea that a black dog tracks
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: an addict or an alcoholic and doesn't die doesn't you
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: know is is there forever kind of thing and so
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the point being how do you learn to live with
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: something like that.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah and i saw boomer as representative of a time.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Of innocence yes absolutely.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: You said that Jessica and most of the circumstances in
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: this book are fictional, but the emotional truth of addiction
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: and recovery comes from your own experience. How did you
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: decide where Erica ended and Jessica began in this story?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I think it's tricky. I mean, I think when you
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: create characters, you are creating aspects of yourself on the page.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: There's no denying that. But my story, honestly, my real story,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: so to speak, is pretty boring and pretty garden variety.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I got sober when I was 20 the
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: first time. And, you know, it's for some people, that's
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: a ridiculously young age, but I hit what I considered
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: to be a pretty serious bottom. But the plot and
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: the circumstances and a lot of the characters are fiction.
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  Speaker 1: But I think for me, it was not easy, but
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  Speaker 1: it was She was close enough in terms of her affect,
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  Speaker 1: her experience, certainly her addiction, her addictness was close enough
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  Speaker 1: to me to be easy to write in that way.
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  Speaker 1: The character wasn't easy. I mean, the story wasn't easy
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  Speaker 1: to write, but her voice came naturally to me.
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  Speaker 2: And the story moves year by year through the 80s
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: with each section opening on cultural events. and even a
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: book published that year. Why did that structure become the
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: right way to tell Jessica's story?
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: That structure happened later. Um, the, it took about five
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: years to write the book and the first couple of years,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I just really spent time with the characters, following them around. Um,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: I try when I'm writing to sort of take a
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: back seat and have the characters lead the way through
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: the story. And therefore I'm not just writing my own,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: you know, my own stuff. Um, And then that structure
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: kind of imposed itself, I'd say, in the last year
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: of working on the book, where I wanted to pull
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: out a little bit. And I also needed a timestamp.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I needed a way to indicate the passage of time,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: hopefully in an interesting manner. And so, you know, the
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: book opens with London's death, which is a big thing,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: a broader picture. And then It's sort of intended as
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: a way to sort of open up the year and
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: then go down and zoom in particular to Jessica's story.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Why did you feel Lennon's death was the right event
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: to open the door into her world?
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Well, it happened at the beginning, you know, the beginning
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  Speaker 1: of the decade in December. And for me, it was
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: a big deal at the time. I was 11 at
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: the time. And culturally, it felt like even though when
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Kennedy was assassinated, you could say that was a more
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: relevant example of a loss of innocence. But I think
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: for my generation, Lenin's assassination was so baffling and senseless
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: and brought a lot of people up short. You know,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: here's somebody who embodies peace and creativity and inspiration. And granted,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the Beatles had broken up, but all of a sudden
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: they're gone, you know? And I think it was a good,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: a good sort of way to jettison the story, you know,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: to where she is completely taken aback and, and sad,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: you know, but she feels kind of dumb feeling sad
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: because she knows she wasn't Lennon's friend or anything like that,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: but she had a personal relationship to the music.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Yes. Well, that's what I find interesting. And I think
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: we all do music fans that, personal grief that we
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: can feel when a musician we've never met actually dies.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: There's something really interesting in that.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: We feel some connection.
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  Speaker 1: The time you spent with that music and that artist,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: the time that your memories are based on. And for me,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: it's sort of albums versus songs because of my age,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I think. But all of that feels gone. You know,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: like you have the songs, you have the memory, but
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  Speaker 1: you don't have the living embodiment of the music.
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  Speaker 2: And that same night, her father gives her a beer.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And suddenly, Lennon, her father, and the Black Dog all
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: seem to recede. That's a big moment, pivotal moment. How
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: important was it that her first experience with alcohol actually
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: seems to work? And this is where I can relate
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: so much. Being in college, I didn't drink a lot.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't drink at all in high school. And when
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I started drinking in college, because it was peer pressure, really,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: living in a dorm, boy, it seemed to work. And
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: then years later, you look back and you're like, it
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: didn't work out so well.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Why was that so important?
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  Speaker 1: I think it's important, again, on that night, there's just
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  Speaker 1: this loss of innocence happening sort of all at once.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: And there's this confusion with her dad, who's an alcoholic,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: who should be preventing her from doing something like that
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: and instead is agreeing to you know, she asks him,
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  Speaker 1: but he agrees. And I think it's to show sort
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: of to enter into that story of the dance with
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: alcohol and drugs and how it is euphoria producing. It does,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: you know, she talks about how the sadness, she's removed
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: from her sadness. And I think that's what's so appealing.
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  Speaker 1: And With booze and drugs is that it does kind
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: of let you step back from your own pain, your
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: own situation, whatever it is. And then, you know, and
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: then for some people, that's where it stops. You know,
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  Speaker 1: they might feel that little bit of elation or that little,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of social sparkle and then kind of
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  Speaker 1: that's it. Whereas for some of us, we just want
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: to keep that going. endlessly.
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  Speaker 2: I try to explain that to my mom, my mom
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  Speaker 2: and dad, just that wasn't their thing growing up in
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  Speaker 2: the fifties. And I said to her recently, you know, it's,
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  Speaker 2: it's for like a couple of hours there, everything is great.
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  Speaker 2: You're not feeling any pain, but, It takes a long
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: time before you have to face the reality that it
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: just makes it worse the next day. Or you're not
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: really dealing with anything. You're just putting a Band-Aid over it.
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  Speaker 1: Right. And then there's a boomerang, you know, because anything
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: that you haven't been dealing with or processing kind of
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: comes back twofold because of repressing it or letting it go.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: And then also the behavior that happens, like the stuff
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: that we do drunk. probably is, I know for me
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: is not stuff I would do sober. Exactly.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: And just things you say to your regret. But that's
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: the thing that's tricky being a rock and roll fan
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: as a ham. I just, there was that point where
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I just thought that was the thing that was the
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: cool thing to do. And that's to try to separate
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: those two was difficult at a younger age, but it
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: becomes easier as you get older. And I think that's it.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: You know, there are some of my favorite musicians, like
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I love kiss and, Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley just
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: never believed in that. While the other two members of
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: the band were into drugs and alcohol and you see
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: what it, what it did to them. So there are
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: some role models in rock music that can tell you,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: you don't need it, but it's more so though. It's
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: kind of what was sold, you know, that was, you know,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: the sex, drugs, rock and roll. It's cool. You know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: you kind of stunted growth and you're, you know, you
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: remain a kid forever, but you can't.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: So. And also, you know, I think about Jimmy Page
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: and Jimmy Page kind of going down really far and
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: how he his playing his he lost his playing ability.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, he could still sort of sloppily played,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: but his musicianship certainly suffered from his heroin addiction. And
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I think it took him a long time to kind
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: of get his chops back after getting clean.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: And the worst result would be John Bonham. Loses his life, right? Well,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Jessica and the character Dean, they connect because, speaking of Zeppelin,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: she recognizes the image from the Zeppelin IV album on
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: his shirt. Did you want rock music to function almost
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: like a secret language between young people in this world?
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Because it really was for me.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I didn't necessarily do it consciously, but certainly music
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: in general and music in adolescence is a big... A
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: big thing out of my life. And so it was
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: bound to be there, you know. And in the 80s, actually,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I was listening and Jessica listens to music from the
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: 60s and the 70s and not so much from the 80s,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: which was true for me as well. I never really
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: connected with 80s music.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I know your writer becomes one of the section titles.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Jessica's last name is Ryder. And the Grateful Dead song
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: appears in the story. So what attracted you to that
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: particular musical connection? I think you just kind of get
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: to that answer. You're more of the music you loved
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: from the 60s, 70s?
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's places of playing homage to
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: certain artists and certain songs and certain music, certainly. And
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: China Cat Sunflowers, another song that gets mentioned in the book.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Even though it's not, you know, spelled out, you know,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: sort of Grateful Dead is here. There's these different albums
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: and artists are woven into the story.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Erica Kent, the author of the novel Black Dog. As
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Jessica gets older, songs by Zeppelin, The Stones, Clapton and
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: others become woven into some of her more or most
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: intense experiences. How did you choose which songs belonged in
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: particular scenes?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I know the answer to that exactly.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: I think they came. I mean, I think, you know,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: it's sort of like listening to the characters, listening to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: the sound of the words. And I always read things
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: aloud as I'm writing them. After I've written them, I
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: read them aloud and then I read them silently and
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: then I read them aloud back and forth. And so
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I think it's sort of a, listening for what, what
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: is the sound of the language that's happening and how, how,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: what's the piece of music that can, um, sort of
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: accompany this, you know, and like Neil Young, um, is
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: in a couple of different places. And, and so I
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: also spent a lot of time in the eighties walking
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: around Boston with my Walkman when we had Walkmans blasting music,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: ruining my ears, um, forever. Um, and sort of just
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: having a soundtrack. And so that's what this feels like, too,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, as a soundtrack.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Instinctive.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: And Jessica keeps insisting that she isn't like her father
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and that she can control her drinking and drug use.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And we've heard that many times. How much of her
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: story is about slowly recognizing that she may be repeating
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the very patterns that she resents in him?
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I think that's very much there. I mean, they, in
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: a way, not in a sketchy way, but it's kind
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: of a love story between the two of them in
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: a way, sort of how they mirror each other. And
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: how she sees him, she watches his spiral, and she
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't consciously realize this, but she starts to recognize things.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: And especially after she gets sober and she goes to
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: visit him at one point, And she just sees him
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: as being kind of sad. And there's a certain, um,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: pathetic is kind of a super judgy word. So I
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: don't mean not exactly, but she worries about him and
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: she sees his fragility and he falls and he hits
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: his head and he's in the hospital. So she watches
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: him kind of literally fall down, um, and worries, you know,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: and it's not clear at the end if he's gonna,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: if he's gonna be able to do it. Um, So
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: she knows she's lucky. She knows she's really lucky.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Then there are other characters, Dean and Bodhi, brothers, but
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: they represent very different kinds of attraction for Jessica. What
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: does each of them give her or bring out in
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: her that the other doesn't?
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: They're kind of point and counterpoint. I mean, I think
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Dean is, Dean says to her, you know, if you
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: had it together, then we could be together. You know,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: and she can't, she can't live up to that and
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: she's sort of she calls him kind of a prude
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: at one point um Bodhi's kind of the bad the
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: bad brother who um has feelings for Jessica that Jessica
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: doesn't really reciprocate um and she actually winds up hurting
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Bodhi um by introducing him to heroin even though she
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: knows she shouldn't she does anyway and she so it's
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: kind of a complicated triangle in a way um So
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I think sort of light and dark, but I think
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: they're also, you know, in the book in general, light
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: and dark. It's not black and white. You know, there's
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: sort of lights and then dark and then lighter and
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: then darker kind of stuff.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: At the bar called Bag of Tricks with the stones
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: blasting and Jessica spiraling on drugs, Jessica meets a woman
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: named Cassie who asks her a very simple question. Is
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: all this working out for you? Why does that moment
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: of compassion reach her in a way that maybe lectures
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: and warnings weren't.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that holds true for people where,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you know, in work, I worked with kids for a
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: long time. And so, you know, approaching somebody with judgment
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: or with, I'm going to lecture you or you're in trouble, or,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you know, in this case with a peer, you know,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: just completely judging her, it puts people off, you know?
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: And so when she meets somebody who, sees her for
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: who she is and sees the struggle and can recognize it.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: And she can recognize in her that she gets it. Um, it's,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: it's a powerful moment for her, you know, it kind
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: of breaks through a little bit.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: And you said that being in relationship with someone like that,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: it's like being with two different people. It's the real
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: person and it's, it's the addict. Is that part of
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: what you wanted us to see in that character jessica
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: that she can genuinely love people and still repeatedly choose
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: getting high over them even though she truly loves.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Them yeah i mean i think addicts and jessica do
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: things that you know um we don't want to do
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: or we don't intend to do but we wind up
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you know your disease like the black dog your disease
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: kind of owns you and so It's not like you
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: don't have any responsibility of the things that you do,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: but it is driven in large part by that kind
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: of insatiable hunger for getting high, unfortunately. And unfortunately for
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: the people closest especially, there's just an inherent selfishness and
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: narcissism which goes along with that.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: You did mention something interesting about it's not all black
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: and white. There's shades of it. And I thought that
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: was interesting because you resist that familiar addiction story where
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: everything before sobriety is darkness and everything afterward is redemption.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Why was it important to leave? room there for shades
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: of different colors or maybe shades of, of, of black
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and white, right? Where you leave room for love and
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: there's beauty and there's humor on both sides of that line. Not,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: it's not all or nothing.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: I think that's what complicates addiction.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. I agree. I think That trajectory of a
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: story of, you know, everything, you know, you sort of
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: go way down and then you go way up. And
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I think for a lot of addicts that doesn't, you know,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: truck with our experience. It's, there's tons of gray area.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: There's tons of contradictions, which makes it human, which makes
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: it difficult and messy. I suppose if it was this clean,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: you know, line, it would be easier in a way,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: but it's just not. There's people who get sober who
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: are lousy people after they get sober. They hurt other people,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: you know. There's people who are terrible people, and then
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: they get sober, and they are kind and gentle and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: completely changed. So there's, in other words, a huge range
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of things. And this story, I wanted to not have
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: it be just morality based, you know, like good and
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: bad and this and that. And, um, but to show how,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, addiction doesn't, unfortunately morality and willpower don't really
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: factor into an addict's, um, the heart of an addict.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I don't think.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: This next question goes back to my comment about rock
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and roll. And if it's possible to be a fan
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: of rock and roll and not live that lifestyle, there
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: is that story. in the book about somebody in recovery saying,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: I can't listen to Jimi Hendrix anymore because she's sober, right?
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: And your reaction was basically, no Hendrix? Come on.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Why was it important that that recovery didn't require Jessica
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: to reject the music that had been part of her
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: life while she was using?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: She feels like, as a lot of people, as I
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: feel like, a lot of people feel like just because
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: you're not actively using drugs doesn't mean that you would
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: reject people actively using drugs who make music, you know,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: like Kendrix. And music that evokes that sort of drug culture,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I don't, there's certain albums I
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: don't listen to very often because I just revere them
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to over, you know, it's like
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: it's special occasion to listen to. Like Axis, Bold is Love.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: But I would never, even if that music makes me
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: feel a little, it doesn't make me feel high, but
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: it sort of reminds me of all of that. I
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: would never want to give that up just because of
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the association, you know?
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have albums and
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: songs that take me back to those days when I
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: was partying hard. And there's like this small moment, like, boy,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: I miss those days. And then, but then I think
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: about the fallout and how you feel physically the next
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: day and all that. And I'm like, nah, I think
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: I'm good. But yeah, that is a legitimate question to ask.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Boston feels like much more than a backdrop here in
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: the story. You actually spent your teenage and young adult years,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: like you say, you roamed Brook Brookline, Back Bay, Alston, Southie,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and Somerville. How much of Jessica's Boston is the Boston
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: that you personally remember?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: A lot of it. I mean, that part is really autobiographical.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: And I think it's just a city that I love.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, we moved here to Portland in 1998, so
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: it's been a while. But I'll always consider Boston to
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: be my home and have specific associations with that city,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: but also specific associations with getting sober and living there too.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And listening to all that music and experiencing things. So
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: it's a character in the book, I think. And it's
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: very present. I don't think it could be set anywhere else.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: It's a great city. I'm in Connecticut. You are in Maine.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming you're a Red Sox fan.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Playoff time.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Getting excited.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: The high school teacher, Jessica's high school teacher, is it
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: pronounced Mr. Ryrie?
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Yes. Mr. Ryrie.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I got it.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So he sees something in her that she has trouble
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: seeing in herself, encourages her to think about college. Since
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: you are a high school English teacher, did your experiences
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: with struggling students influence that relationship in the story?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, sure. I mean, I had a Mr. Ryrie in
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: high school, a German teacher who was an amazing teacher.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Does he know? He's in the book?
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: No, he's not alive anymore.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, man. Okay.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: He inspired me as well as other teachers to become
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: a teacher. And one of the things that I loved
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: as a teacher is I had a little library at
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the back of my room. And we got a grant
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: through Stephen King to buy a bunch of books. And
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: so I had a little library of books that I
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: thought kids would like. And so kids who were really flailing,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: not doing well in school, didn't like to read, I
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: knew certain books would connect with them. And so it
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: was great to see when that happened, when a kid
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: would come in with his book, her book, and not
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: want to be able to put it down. That's the
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: best thing ever as a teacher.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: You said you got sober at 20. But years later,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: you experienced a relapse with marijuana. And you said that
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: you Don't think you could have written this book without
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that experience. What did that relapse teach you about addiction
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: that your first period of sobriety didn't?
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: That was about 15 years ago, and it was a
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: short relapse, and it was sort of dipping my toe in.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I was in California at the time, and I thought, oh,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I can smoke medical marijuana at night and it will
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: be okay. And you know, I think one of the
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: things it taught me is I certainly blew up my
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: life for a bit and other people experienced the fallout
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: from that too. And also that, you know, the disease,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: one of the things in treatment they tell you is
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: like the disease is doing pushups while you're sober, you know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: in other words, strengthening itself. And so when you go back,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: you're just picking up where you left off kind of thing.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And And that proved true for me. Within a very
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: short time, I was under the spell and couldn't stop
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: and was suffering lots of consequences for it, but seemingly
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: couldn't stop. And I think, I mean, I got my
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: ass handed to me, basically. And so I really, I
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: developed a much healthier fear of it And it just
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: taught me about the power of the disease and how
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: much better life is when you're not high.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: What do you hope readers understand about Jessica? Maybe that
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: they couldn't have understood at the beginning of the story
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: or before reading this story.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: To have a sense of empathy for people who are struggling,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: to see her as a real person, even though she's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: struggling with this major thing. um, maybe to feel empathy,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: but also see how it's not a message exactly, but
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: it's sort of a portrait of how somebody's life at
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: a young age can fall apart, but it's always possible to,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: to get better. It's always possible. And I believe that, um,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: but people do die. I mean, people do die when
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: they're young, even so. The stakes are high in a
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: lot of ways. And I think when you start young,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: you burn through things faster. Some people I know with
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: myself just sort of started young and ended young because
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: it was a very fast progression. Whereas for some people,
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: it takes a long time for it to become a problem.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Black Dog, it's out now. You can find it where
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: books are sold, right? Yes. Look forward at your nearest bookstore.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: If you want to check forward at your nearest independent bookstore,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: go to bookdownrock.com to find your nearest store. And can
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: people find you online, Erica?
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Yes. EricaKent.com is my website. And that's with a C, Erica, E-R-I-C-A-K-E-N-T.com.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Gotcha. I'll put the link in the show notes. Erica Kent,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: thank you for coming on. Thank you for writing such
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: a great book. It's something I think every Rock and
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: roll fans should read, but also everybody who's maybe ever
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: had that struggle with addiction for a long period, short period,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: whatever it may be. I think we can all understand
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: it and take something out of this story.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for talking.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: That's it. It's in the books.