Latest / When Will They Learn? / Episode #10 All Ashman's Fault

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Episode #10 All Ashman's Fault · When Will They Learn?

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to When Will They Learn?
0:02
SPEAKER_01: My name is Greg Ashman.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Caiti Wade.
0:06
This is the podcast where we explore what's trending in the
0:12
world of education.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: In each episode,
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we discuss podcast articles and opinion pieces that are shaping
0:18
education discourse
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SPEAKER_00: at the moment and examine these through a science of learning lens.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: We discuss not just what's popular, but what's supported by the evidence.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: In this episode,
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we will be talking about PowerPoints and scripting lessons and
0:33
policy and my role
0:38
in the downfall of Victorian maths teaching and AI writing
0:45
assessments using AI to
0:46
do the writing for the kids and lots of policy and various
0:51
things like that.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Caiti, very early again.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: It's dark here in Ballarat.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Is it dark in Brisbane?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: No,
1:08
SPEAKER_00: like it was,
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I got up this morning and went to gym before I decided to come
1:12
in and do this,
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SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't dark or it's not dark now.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: It's dark.
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It's still,
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it's 10 to 7 in the morning and it's still pitch black outside.
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SPEAKER_01: So that goes to show that you are in a different part of the world to me,
1:25
SPEAKER_01: even though we're in the same country.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely wild.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm not envious at all.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: No, no.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's start with Marty Ross.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Marty the mathematician and his blog Bad Mathematics.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: He says what he thinks is probably the best way to describe him.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: He's got this blog post that we're going to talk about.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: It's a title I'm not going to read because it's too long.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Why not?
1:52
SPEAKER_01: I haven't even got it all printed,
1:53
SPEAKER_01: but it starts a meditation upon that doctrine,
1:56
SPEAKER_01: commonly styled explicit teaching,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's all sort of mock 17th century spelling and stuff like that.
2:08
Marty is not a fan of PowerPoint,
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which he makes very clear in his second paragraph.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: By the way,
2:14
SPEAKER_01: the warning,
2:15
SPEAKER_01: if you're going to read this through the show notes,
2:18
SPEAKER_01: there are some swear words in the...
2:20
SPEAKER_01: In the article.
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SPEAKER_01: He doesn't like PowerPoint and fair enough, you don't have to.
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SPEAKER_01: But he talks about,
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SPEAKER_01: essentially the article is,
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SPEAKER_01: I think he's been speaking to some people,
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some experienced maths teachers who are annoyed because they've
2:38
been asked to use
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PowerPoints either by Oka or someone else or maybe the
2:47
Victorian state produced
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SPEAKER_01: resources.
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They're already teaching explicitly anyway and apparently some
2:57
of this is my responsibility.
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I am at fault for this because these teachers are being told
3:05
it's me that's telling
3:08
SPEAKER_01: them that they have to use PowerPoints.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: They are planting Ashman in the streets or something, that's mentioned.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't really.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot to unpack here, really.
3:21
SPEAKER_01: And I suppose the first thing is conflating me and what I do with ochre.
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SPEAKER_01: Now,
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SPEAKER_01: there is a connection between us and OCA because Reid Smith,
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SPEAKER_01: one of the co-founders of OCA,
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SPEAKER_01: used to work here.
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And it is a similar kind of approach to have a common
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PowerPoint with cues on it as
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SPEAKER_01: to what the students are going to do and things like that.
3:45
And Greg,
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just for anyone who's not from Australia or hasn't used OCA,
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what is OCA?
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I think they explicitly made the link with Oak National Academy
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in the UK when they founded it.
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SPEAKER_01: Oak National Academy was founded in the pandemic as a resource for kids.
4:06
For teachers in the UK to deliver sort of lessons
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asynchronously using videos and
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SPEAKER_01: PowerPoints and things like that.
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And I think the link was made explicit when OCA was founded
4:20
between OCA being the
4:22
SPEAKER_01: inspiration for what they were doing.
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SPEAKER_01: But OCA isn't really...
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SPEAKER_01: Impact Curriculum
4:47
SPEAKER_01: But look, I'm not that familiar with the ochre materials.
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I've never really had to look at them because obviously we've
4:53
got our own stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: The only time I looked at them was about a year or two ago.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: We were looking at some year eight...
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SPEAKER_01: Linear Algebra.
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SPEAKER_01: And we thought it needed a bit of a rejig.
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And I looked up the linear algebra on OCA and I looked at it
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and I thought,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: no,
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SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't do it that way.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's not a...
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Comment on the entire ochre collection of lessons and all its
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work and all that sort of stuff.
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But my only experience recently is looking at a lesson and
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thinking I probably
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SPEAKER_01: wouldn't do it that way.
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SPEAKER_01: So I'm not convinced that we are exactly the same.
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SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is that if...
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SPEAKER_01: If people,
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SPEAKER_01: what he calls them,
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he's very rude about these school leaders who are going out
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there and basically
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insisting apparatchiks and principals equate explicit teaching
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with PowerPoints and
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SPEAKER_01: scripts and there are little Hitlers about it.
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SPEAKER_01: I didn't love that.
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Yeah,
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well,
6:00
again,
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I would,
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and I disagree with Marty on a lot of this stuff.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think a PowerPoint is a script.
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SPEAKER_01: I think a script is a script.
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SPEAKER_01: So if you're doing classic Big D.I.,
6:10
SPEAKER_01: Zig Engelman,
6:13
SPEAKER_01: corrective maths or something,
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SPEAKER_01: you are literally reading from a script.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: That's a scripted lesson.
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SPEAKER_01: A PowerPoint does not say what the teacher should say at every point.
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SPEAKER_01: So I don't call that scripted, but Marty does.
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SPEAKER_01: But anyway.
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SPEAKER_00: No, he says that it is scripted.
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SPEAKER_00: It is close to a script.
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SPEAKER_00: Like if PowerPoint isn't, then it's close.
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That makes me think that anyone who says that they don't like
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the way that we're
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SPEAKER_00: using PowerPoint,
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it just makes me think they don't understand what we're doing
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with PowerPoint when
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SPEAKER_00: we say that we use it.
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SPEAKER_01: I think if Marty,
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SPEAKER_01: I think Marty probably doesn't quite understand exactly how we use it,
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SPEAKER_01: but I don't think he cares.
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I think if you explain to him exactly how we use it,
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he still wouldn't like it anyway.
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SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a bit of a,
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SPEAKER_01: like,
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SPEAKER_01: for instance,
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SPEAKER_01: he has this thing where he says,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
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SPEAKER_01: explicit teaching is just teaching.
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SPEAKER_01: And you say, well, no, it's a bit more than that.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: And he said, I'm not interested.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: in one of the comments,
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SPEAKER_01: someone tried to mention Rosenstein's principles,
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SPEAKER_01: and he just basically said,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not interested in that.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: you can't convince him of anything,
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because as soon as you raise something to object to his view
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that explicit teaching
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SPEAKER_01: is just jokingly,
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SPEAKER_01: Or he'll just say, well, I'm just not interested in that discussion.
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SPEAKER_01: But it's not.
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So I've taught explicitly for years before I discovered all the
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research because I
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SPEAKER_01: couldn't get inquiry learning to work.
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SPEAKER_01: And often it would just be me.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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Guided Practice I didn't have a concept of we do so I don't
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think it is just the
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same thing but anyway if Marty was listening to this he would
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have switched off
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this already because he's not interested in that the other
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thing I would say is if
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SPEAKER_01: these people are out there
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SPEAKER_01: Saying that,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Ashman says you have to all teach to these PowerPoints,
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SPEAKER_01: then they're doing the opposite of what I would recommend.
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So we have a lot of visitors at Clarendon and our staff give up
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time and they talk to them.
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And the first thing we say to them is,
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look,
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we're not here to tell you how to do anything.
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SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
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SPEAKER_01: you're interested in what we do because that's why you're here,
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SPEAKER_01: but we're not interested in trying to convert you.
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SPEAKER_01: We don't want to necessarily debate things.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll explain what we do.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll explain why we do it.
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SPEAKER_01: And if any of that is useful to you,
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Great but do with it as you will but then they will say you
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know later on in the
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day well if we want to go back to our schools and do some of
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the things that you do
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SPEAKER_01: what do you advise?
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SPEAKER_01: And I say well
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SPEAKER_01: If you want to do that, do not go big bang.
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Do not suddenly decide in February,
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right,
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the whole school,
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we're all going to do this.
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We're all going to teach ochre materials or the whole school is
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going to convert to
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SPEAKER_01: PowerPoint for February because it won't work.
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SPEAKER_01: No, that's way too much at one time.
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Yeah,
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it will annoy people as well,
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because they won't understand the purpose of it.
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SPEAKER_01: What you want to do with these things is you want to pilot them.
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So you pick a team,
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a team that's enthusiastic,
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not a team that's grumpy about it.
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You don't go straight in imposing your ideas on teachers who
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are not happy to try them out.
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SPEAKER_01: You go to an enthusiastic team.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's what we did years ago.
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SPEAKER_01: We started this
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So the origin in these common PowerPoints that have turned into
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what we have now
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and that have sort of influenced OCA was the maths department
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that I ran probably,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: 2012,
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SPEAKER_01: something like that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I thought we,
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SPEAKER_01: I used a PowerPoint to frame my lessons and I thought it was,
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SPEAKER_01: if I was going to do that,
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SPEAKER_01: because I'll put the questions up and,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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write on them and all that sort of stuff as we were talking
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about last time.
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SPEAKER_01: If I'm going to do that, might as well share it with my colleagues.
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SPEAKER_01: So you weren't forcing that on them then?
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You were just like,
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oh,
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hey,
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you know,
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if you want this,
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it might help you out.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: well,
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SPEAKER_01: I started with,
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I think it was a year nine or year 10 team with a colleague who
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was managing that
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SPEAKER_01: area.
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SPEAKER_01: Who are enthusiastic.
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SPEAKER_01: And they took to it.
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SPEAKER_01: But they started talking about it in offices.
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SPEAKER_01: And then over the years, literally one or two years, some staff moved on.
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And then one of the teachers who I never thought would use this
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strategy came to me
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SPEAKER_01: and said,
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's time to use PowerPoints in year 12 maths.
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SPEAKER_01: And I was surprised.
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SPEAKER_01: I assumed that I would leave that alone.
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But he came to me and said he wanted to because he'd seen the
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benefit in the other
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SPEAKER_01: teams that he'd been working in.
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SPEAKER_01: So it kind of grew like that.
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SPEAKER_00: That's your classic diffusion of innovations is you just need to hit...
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On those like you know 15-ish percent and if you can get those
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over the line it
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just begins to spread like you're looking for the people who
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are eager to begin
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with you're not aiming to roll something out to the majority or
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to force it onto
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SPEAKER_00: someone that's why a lot of change efforts fail.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, but I'd add a caveat to that.
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SPEAKER_01: It will if it's a good idea.
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SPEAKER_01: So if you get 15% trying to do something and it's a good idea,
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SPEAKER_01: they will tell other people,
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SPEAKER_01: oh,
12:18
SPEAKER_01: this is a good idea,
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SPEAKER_01: saves me a lot of time,
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SPEAKER_01: and oh,
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SPEAKER_01: it means that I don't miss things out,
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SPEAKER_01: and oh,
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SPEAKER_01: my kids are better prepared for the assessment.
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SPEAKER_01: You make a good point.
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SPEAKER_01: And then other people go, oh, that's okay, let's do that.
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SPEAKER_01: If it was a bad idea, though, it would die and it would deserve to die.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's why you pilot it.
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SPEAKER_01: That's why you do a pilot.
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SPEAKER_01: That's why you don't suddenly go, bang, everyone's doing this.
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And in fact,
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I've actually recently written a book called How to Improve a
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School.
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SPEAKER_00: Which I'm looking forward to.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's with the publisher now.
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SPEAKER_01: And I've got this very...
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There's an interesting manuscript editor who doesn't like the
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word however,
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SPEAKER_01: and it's a real sort of backstory there.
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SPEAKER_01: So I've no idea what's going to happen to it before it gets published,
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SPEAKER_01: but I'd just like to read you.
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There was a perfect opportunity to use however just then in
13:05
that sentence and you didn't.
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SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: first of all,
13:11
SPEAKER_01: before I read you this bit,
13:12
SPEAKER_01: sorry,
13:12
SPEAKER_01: this is a bit of a digression,
13:14
SPEAKER_01: but I think it's important.
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SPEAKER_01: The first chapter of that book is called First Fix Behaviour.
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SPEAKER_01: Because that's the most important thing.
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And I would rather send my kids to a school that was safe and
13:28
orderly where they
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used an inquiry learning model than to an explicit teaching
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school where the kids
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SPEAKER_01: were jumping out the windows.
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SPEAKER_00: Say it louder.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, my goodness.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
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That's the most important thing because it's just the bottom
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line and you have to
13:45
SPEAKER_01: be constantly vigilant because it can go south so quickly.
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Even just five or six kids can just rapidly change the
13:55
atmosphere and it's
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something you have to really be eternally vigilant over and it
14:00
is the most
14:00
SPEAKER_01: important thing.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: So then the second chapter...
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It's called a cycle of horror and this is how it currently
14:07
begins before the
14:08
SPEAKER_01: manuscript editor has got to it.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: We're all familiar with the cycle of horror.
14:11
An initiative is launched with great fanfare and slathers of
14:14
professional learning
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SPEAKER_01: time in February.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: But when the classroom doors are shut and this
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SPEAKER_01: Students are sat at their desks.
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SPEAKER_01: Implementation is uneven.
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By June it has only been partially adopted and by September it
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becomes something we
14:25
SPEAKER_01: are embarrassed to talk about.
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Yet it is never officially cancelled because that would be too
14:30
big an embarrassment
14:30
SPEAKER_01: to someone important.
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And so we hide it away in a store cupboard with all the other
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zombie initiatives.
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SPEAKER_01: Under no circumstances open the cupboard.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of... Oh, that's familiar.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, that's this idea.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: So anyone who is going out there and invoking my name to say,
14:50
SPEAKER_01: right,
14:50
SPEAKER_01: February,
14:51
SPEAKER_01: we've all got to teach from PowerPoints,
14:52
SPEAKER_01: ochre PowerPoints maybe,
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SPEAKER_01: because they haven't got mine,
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SPEAKER_01: so they couldn't be teaching from my PowerPoints.
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SPEAKER_01: They've kind of misunderstood all the matter.
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SPEAKER_01: Also, I don't write about PowerPoints very much either.
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SPEAKER_01: Like my whole argument...
15:06
On my blog is usually about explicit teaching and teaching
15:10
methods and things like
15:10
SPEAKER_01: that,
15:11
and not really about how you structure that with PowerPoints or
15:16
whatever other
15:16
SPEAKER_01: medium.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: In fact, at my school, we don't really even have a PowerPoint mandate.
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What the agreement is,
15:27
is that every lesson has to have a centrally planned plan,
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and
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SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't have to be on PowerPoint,
15:34
but everyone uses PowerPoint pretty much apart from maybe PE
15:37
and some music and
15:39
SPEAKER_01: things like that.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: But that's kind of a choice.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: And now maybe it's not much of a choice because everyone's doing it.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so I probably – it's a funny thing to –
15:55
SPEAKER_01: To invoke my name to push on teachers, really.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: When it comes to this idea of mandating...
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SPEAKER_01: So the other thing that's happened is,
16:10
SPEAKER_01: of course,
16:10
SPEAKER_01: that the state minister,
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Ben Carroll,
16:14
SPEAKER_01: has been very active talking about explicit teaching,
16:17
SPEAKER_01: which we're going to talk about as well in the next article.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's some context, and Marty has written about that as well.
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SPEAKER_01: But this idea that the minister would just demand that all schools do an
16:33
SPEAKER_01: initiative,
16:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm a little bit sceptical of.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: I used to think that that would be a good way to do things.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm now more convinced of this idea of school choice,
16:44
SPEAKER_01: so that you have government schools that can
16:47
They basically make different decisions to each other,
16:51
can pursue different approaches.
16:54
I think it's been helpful in the UK because they have that
16:57
through the free schools
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SPEAKER_01: and academy system.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: And that means that schools like Michaela can emerge.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Now, also schools like School 21 can emerge.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: School 21 is essentially the opposite of Michaela.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: It was this guy called Peter Hyman who used to advise Tony Blair.
17:15
He set up a school that wanted to be big on oracy and project
17:18
work and all that sort of stuff.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: So he had a go and he set up School 21.
17:23
And then you've got someone like Catherine Burble Singh who
17:25
sets up Michaela and
17:25
SPEAKER_01: you've got these different models.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: Now, overall, you know, some will be good, some won't be.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't necessarily improve education in itself,
17:34
SPEAKER_01: but it enables people to experiment and try different things out.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that would be, if I was...
17:42
I'd probably be more pursuing a school choice model where
17:48
different schools could
17:49
take different options rather than trying to centrally plan
17:53
something from the
17:54
SPEAKER_01: department in Melbourne.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: What that actually looks like,
17:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:58
SPEAKER_01: when it spins out to a school in Mournable or something,
18:02
SPEAKER_01: is it's gone through several layers of mushy bureaucracy,
18:07
SPEAKER_01: which isn't quite on the same page,
18:10
SPEAKER_01: probably,
18:10
SPEAKER_01: as the minister.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: And it'll end up looking rather different.
18:15
So I would probably focus more on that side of things than
18:20
these kind of central plans.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, Marty goes on.
18:26
So he makes the point again that good teachers who have been
18:33
teaching explicitly
18:34
SPEAKER_01: and well for decades rightly hate this.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: So again, he's not.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: He's not interested in explicit teaching.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: He just thinks it's teaching.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: And he says, you know, it's very boring talking about it.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: He's, yeah.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: But I do think it is important because I do think we still have.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: So what politicians could do
18:58
SPEAKER_01: They could get some of the things out of the way.
18:59
So I think Marty and I would both agree that the Australian
19:02
curriculum isn't very good.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: It's not very ambitious.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: It's full of waffle and twaddle and stuff that you can't really teach.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: It tries to promote.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: I think if you could change that, I think that would be really good.
19:20
And I think the other thing that politicians could do is put
19:24
pressure to improve assessment.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: So NAPLAN is...
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Is obviously coordinated federally through ACARA,
19:32
SPEAKER_01: which is our national programme of literacy and numeracy assessments,
19:35
SPEAKER_01: and that's a centrally done thing.
19:37
But the VCAA,
19:38
which sets the VCE exams in Victoria,
19:41
that's the responsibility of
19:44
SPEAKER_01: We could improve that dramatically.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Instead of having two papers,
19:49
SPEAKER_01: one where you can use a CAS calculator notes for the whole of it,
19:53
SPEAKER_01: which is worth two-thirds of the mark,
19:56
SPEAKER_01: you could get rid of that.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: You could get rid of the CAS.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: You could do much more.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: There's no CAS in Queensland.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: Good.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: We're graphics only.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
20:08
It's like using AI to write your essays for you in an English
20:13
exam or something.
20:13
It doesn't make any sense to me at all why you would have that
20:21
tech available in an exam.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: And also,
20:24
SPEAKER_01: like the VCAA,
20:26
SPEAKER_01: their exams all require students to pretend to be,
20:29
all the science ones require students to pretend to be
20:32
scientists and do like a
20:34
SPEAKER_01: physics poster project and a chemistry poster project,
20:37
SPEAKER_01: as if they're discovering some novel science for themselves.
20:40
And again,
20:41
that's because the people there have this bias towards inquiry.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: They think that's how science should be taught.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: So rather than focus on mandating...
20:53
Particular PowerPoints I would suggest the minister would
20:57
probably better use his
20:59
resources focusing on reforming the VCA and making those exams
21:03
a little bit more
21:03
rigorous but it gets a fairly nuanced thing really and I'm kind
21:08
of busking this a
21:09
SPEAKER_01: little bit because I don't spend much time
21:12
SPEAKER_01: In this policy space,
21:13
I spend most of my time sort of arguing about different
21:15
teaching methods and
21:16
SPEAKER_01: curriculum.
21:17
But I've kind of been put in this place because apparently my
21:21
name and Oka's,
21:22
SPEAKER_01: because we're just one and the same,
21:24
SPEAKER_01: are being used to push,
21:27
SPEAKER_01: in scare quotes,
21:28
cognitive load on unwilling teachers who are teaching really
21:33
good and explicitly
21:35
SPEAKER_01: already.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: Okra's resource, Okra is a non-for-profit organization.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: They provide free resources,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: like you've got assessment tasks,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: you've got unit plans,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: you have lesson resources,
21:54
SPEAKER_00: you've got,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: student booklets,
21:56
SPEAKER_00: questions.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: They provide free resources that anyone,
22:01
SPEAKER_00: regardless of their school,
22:02
SPEAKER_00: can make an account for free and can access.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: So whether you like their stuff or not personally or
22:09
SPEAKER_00: That,
22:09
SPEAKER_00: as somebody who has gone to different schools and has needed things,
22:13
that has given me a basis that I can use when I am in a pinch
22:17
to plan lessons and
22:19
SPEAKER_00: do stuff.
22:19
So even if it's not exactly the way that I would want to teach
22:23
something or I'd
22:23
SPEAKER_00: want to explain something,
22:25
SPEAKER_00: that gives me something.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that from any angle we should be
22:31
Should necessarily be out here saying,
22:33
well,
22:33
they're trying to push this on.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: No, it's a free resource.
22:35
I just accept it's free and they've used PowerPoint or
22:39
whatever,
22:40
like it or hate it.
22:40
They've used that as their medium,
22:43
but it is a free resource by a non-for-profit.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: They're not trying to push any agenda.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
22:51
SPEAKER_01: I think what Marty's trying to say is that me and Oka,
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Oka and I,
22:58
have not been active enough in telling people not to do this
23:03
stuff and mandate
23:04
SPEAKER_01: things.
23:05
So obviously Oka just writing PowerPoints that people are free
23:10
to use or not is
23:11
SPEAKER_01: neither here nor there.
23:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's great.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: And as you say,
23:14
SPEAKER_01: it's quite a useful resource,
23:15
SPEAKER_01: particularly if you're going somewhere new and you don't have that.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: But what's happening,
23:21
SPEAKER_01: according to Marty,
23:22
SPEAKER_01: is that teachers have been told they have to use the OCA PowerPoints.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Which, to be fair, I think is true.
23:30
I think I'm reasonably confident there are teachers who have
23:32
been told at schools,
23:33
SPEAKER_00: you've got to use these.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm going by edu-socials right now,
23:40
SPEAKER_00: but there's a lot of teachers on there who go,
23:42
SPEAKER_00: well,
23:42
SPEAKER_00: my school's forcing us to use these PowerPoints.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: They're not working.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't like this.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't like that.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: So it does seem to be a thing that's happened.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:52
And I can imagine that happening because that's why I've kind
23:55
of written a chapter
23:56
SPEAKER_01: in my book about not doing that.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: But the question is, is that OCA's responsibility?
24:04
SPEAKER_01: Is it their fault that people are doing that?
24:06
SPEAKER_01: Should they be more active saying, don't make people use our stuff?
24:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't really know.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: It's a terrible business decision.
24:13
Well,
24:14
but also I don't see them like I don't see Oka out there saying
24:19
anything much really.
24:20
I know that Reid speaks at conferences,
24:23
research ed and sharing best practice.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Is that still going sharing best practice?
24:27
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard much of that recently.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard much.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: No, but.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: They speak at conferences and stuff,
24:34
SPEAKER_01: but I don't see them pumping out articles or blogs or things like I do,
24:39
SPEAKER_01: perhaps.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'm more at fault because maybe I should be using my...
24:45
Medium to say don't do that but like I have written a book
24:48
saying don't do that but
24:49
it's not published yet so maybe anyway yeah so it's an
24:55
interesting piece and he's
24:56
also written a follow-up article as well which sort of rehashes
25:02
the arguments as
25:03
SPEAKER_00: well Shall we move on to the next one?
25:05
SPEAKER_01: I think we should
25:12
So the next article is an article from The Age and it's written
25:15
by Noel Tao.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: The article is The Reading Wars Are Over,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: which sounds great,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: amazing,
25:21
SPEAKER_00: followed by The Learning Wars Are Just Beginning,
25:24
SPEAKER_00: which sounds far worse.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: So...
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: this article talks about the fact that the reading wars,
25:33
SPEAKER_00: which was years or they say decades,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: of arguing about how to teach reading to young children.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: It was an argument about explicit reading programs,
25:43
SPEAKER_00: about whether or not you should teach phonics.
25:45
It's basically this idea that we've sort of come to a general
25:49
consensus on that.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: What's Now Happened Instead?
25:53
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of this article has been the right word.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: So it's Professor Joanna Barbousis,
26:03
who is the Dean of the School of Education at La Trobe
26:06
University in Victoria.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Joanna's the one who's come out and said,
26:10
SPEAKER_00: well,
26:11
SPEAKER_00: look,
26:11
we've had this big shift where there was this conversation
26:14
about how you teach
26:15
SPEAKER_00: reading.
26:16
What's now happened is it's now a much wider shift where it's
26:19
people arguing about
26:21
whether or not we should use evidence-informed teaching or it's
26:24
the science of
26:24
SPEAKER_00: learning wars now that's what's happened.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: So we've had this massive shift and the article really gets into,
26:33
SPEAKER_00: like it goes both ways,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: it gets into the fact that
26:39
SPEAKER_00: We have this big tension at the moment,
26:43
and I think most people listening to this will be aware of this
26:46
because I imagine
26:46
SPEAKER_00: that's how you've come across the podcast.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: There's a big tension as to whether or not,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:52
science of teaching or science of learning should be used
26:54
across all subjects.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: And I do quite like, I wanted to go to, I say I quite like, um,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: I should say,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: based on what we were talking about earlier,
27:05
SPEAKER_00: this one really similarly,
27:07
SPEAKER_00: the Victorian Education Minister,
27:08
SPEAKER_00: Ben Carroll,
27:09
SPEAKER_00: he's part of sort of the inspiration for the article,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: for this discussion in general,
27:14
because obviously he's somebody who's been promoting the use of
27:20
evidence-informed
27:21
SPEAKER_00: instruction in Victoria.
27:23
He's also speaking at the Age School Summit,
27:26
which this article is a bit of a promo for as well.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually probably worth mentioning.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Are you speaking at it, Greg?
27:34
SPEAKER_01: No, no, I'm not speaking.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't invited, Caiti.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't get invited to that anymore.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Why does that happen?
27:45
SPEAKER_01: I used to get invited,
27:47
but they put me on a panel because they told me that they had
27:49
to balance me up.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: So I'd go on a panel and I'd get to answer one question or something,
27:55
SPEAKER_01: but I was never allowed to present.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: But now they don't even invite me to go on panels.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: That's actually really hurtful.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: You know what, we'll have to create our own conference.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait, you are speaking at conferences coming up.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: No,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: so this article,
28:13
SPEAKER_00: it goes on to say,
28:16
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to read out this quote,
28:18
many in the evidence-based camp believe the science is settled
28:22
and the reading was
28:23
SPEAKER_00: over.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: And I wrote to that, who?
28:26
SPEAKER_00: It's science.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: It's science.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Science isn't just settled.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point of science of learning is that it,
28:35
describe it as it's a commitment to continue to stay up to date
28:39
with whatever the
28:40
SPEAKER_00: research is telling us is going to be the best possible practice.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: And if it says,
28:45
SPEAKER_00: hey,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: that thing that you're doing,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: it's not quite right or you need to adjust it in this way,
28:49
SPEAKER_00: then I'll do that.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: That's what science of learning is.
28:53
That's what science of anything is,
28:54
is staying up to date with the research.
28:58
This has been a huge thing with evidence-informed instruction
29:02
becoming something
29:03
SPEAKER_00: that's increasingly spoken about in the media.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: What that's meant is that there have, I think critics have become
29:12
SPEAKER_00: More vocal.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they haven't.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just that I'm on social media more and I'm seeing it more.
29:16
But I think critics have become more vocal of it because it's
29:20
threatening.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's there and it's scary.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And it's a real thing that's coming into schools.
29:28
And we've spoken about the fact that maybe the implementation
29:30
of that isn't always
29:31
SPEAKER_00: done with the fidelity that it needs.
29:33
And so sometimes those poor implementations might – I'm going
29:38
to say might skew
29:39
SPEAKER_00: people's judgment.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes those poor implementations are –
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, they're not going to have the same benefits of doing it properly.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: And generally,
29:49
they're going to be far worse than a teacher who already knows
29:52
what they're doing,
29:52
SPEAKER_00: going out and doing something.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Well,
29:54
SPEAKER_01: what struck me about this,
29:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:58
SPEAKER_01: sort of reflecting on Marty's article,
30:00
SPEAKER_01: if you look at this one and you think,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: well,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: what do they mean now?
30:03
SPEAKER_01: Because there's a guy who appears in this article called Robert Hatton.
30:09
And he is highly critical of governments imposing explicit
30:12
learning on their schools.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, what's that mean?
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Now,
30:16
SPEAKER_01: we've already talked about,
30:18
SPEAKER_01: I think,
30:19
that there should be more school choice and different types of
30:22
school and things
30:22
SPEAKER_01: like that.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not sure you want to necessarily try and impose...
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Anything on, you know, all the schools in Victoria or whatever.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: But if you are,
30:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:32
SPEAKER_01: I think if you are,
30:34
it would be early reading and early numeracy because I just
30:38
don't think...
30:39
I wrote an article recently where I think actually trying to
30:41
use inquiry learning
30:42
to teach early reading is effectively malpractice because we've
30:45
got so much
30:46
SPEAKER_01: evidence in that space that really,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: we shouldn't be doing anything else.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: So maybe in that area, maybe...
30:54
But generally speaking,
30:56
I would be leaving it more up to schools to decide.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: But I also wonder what that means now.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: When he's talking about imposing explicit learning,
31:06
SPEAKER_01: does he think that's the government asking people to teach using specific
31:11
SPEAKER_01: PowerPoints?
31:13
SPEAKER_01: Is that what we mean now by imposing explicit learning on schools?
31:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
31:17
But certainly from what Marty's written and from your
31:19
experience of some people on
31:21
SPEAKER_01: social media,
31:21
SPEAKER_01: perhaps that's how it is being interpreted.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: So it's not a mandate to teach explicitly,
31:26
SPEAKER_01: like use Rosenstein's principles or something like that.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: It's you have to use these PowerPoints or something.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
31:32
But I looked up Roger Hattam because he calls the so-called
31:37
evidence-based agenda
31:38
SPEAKER_01: and evidence that's wobbly at best.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I wonder what he's all about.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: So I looked him up on Google Scholar.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And I think he's a professor emeritus.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: I might have that wrong.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: But I looked up the most cited article of which he was lead author.
31:51
SPEAKER_01: I think I've got that right.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's called Researching for Social Justice,
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Contextual,
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Conceptual and Methodological Challenges.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: And this is the abstract.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Reforming schooling to enable engagement and success for those typically
32:04
marginalised and failed by schools is a necessary task for
32:07
educational researchers
32:09
SPEAKER_01: and activists concerned with injustice.
32:11
However,
32:11
it is a difficult pursuit with a long history of failed
32:14
attempts.
32:15
This paper outlines the rationale of an Australian partnership
32:18
research project
32:19
SPEAKER_01: redesigning pedagogies in the North,
32:22
which took on such an effort in public secondary school in
32:24
context that in current
32:26
times are beset with crisis conditions and constrained by
32:29
policy recommendations.
32:30
In bringing these resources together with the aim of
32:32
interrupting the reproduction
32:33
SPEAKER_01: of inequality,
32:34
SPEAKER_01: the project developed a methodologic
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Which builds on Bordeauxian,
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I said that,
33:03
SPEAKER_01: insights,
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Bordeaux,
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Bordeaux,
33:06
SPEAKER_01: the French philosopher.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, why have I read all that out and spent the time doing it?
33:10
I think this is fairly typical of what most education
33:14
researchers are interested in
33:16
SPEAKER_01: and are spending their time doing in Australia.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: It's not a trial, like an intervention trial.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: They've done some action research.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Which is you try something and you see how it goes.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: They've been informed by a French philosopher.
33:33
They talk about productive pedagogies which is this thing that
33:37
started where you
33:38
SPEAKER_01: are in Queensland.
33:40
They took inspiration from some American guy who just reckoned
33:45
that good teaching
33:45
SPEAKER_01: looked like X and then they did this big project in Queensland and did
33:51
SPEAKER_01: And did it in different schools,
33:53
SPEAKER_01: but there was no sort of randomised control trials or anything like that.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's now turned into,
33:58
it's been taken on and it's in Sydney and it's turned into this
34:01
thing called,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: what's it?
34:09
SPEAKER_01: It's gone.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: It's rounds, something rounds.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Quality teaching rounds.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: Quality teaching rounds.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: It's turned into this thing called quality teaching rounds,
34:22
which seems to have like a huge amount of interest and funding
34:28
and they do all
34:28
SPEAKER_01: these trials.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm a bit sceptical of it because,
34:31
SPEAKER_01: again,
34:32
SPEAKER_01: if you go right the way back,
34:33
if you chase this back through productive pedagogies in
34:36
Queensland and back to the
34:37
SPEAKER_01: American guy,
34:38
a lot of it is all about higher order thinking skills and being
34:42
higher order and
34:43
SPEAKER_01: all that sort of stuff,
34:44
SPEAKER_01: which I think is a little bit of woo,
34:47
SPEAKER_01: really.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: I think those sorts of distinctions,
34:49
SPEAKER_01: when we focus on that,
34:51
SPEAKER_01: it essentially stems from a misunderstanding of Bloom's taxonomy.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is what many things in education do.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so I was interested.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: So I just went off again on a bit of a digression,
35:05
SPEAKER_01: looking at Robert Hattam and seeing where this criticism was coming from.
35:08
And of course,
35:09
the education establishment aren't keen on explicit teaching.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: And by the establishment, I mean the people in the universities who...
35:18
Are the ones that end up advising on curriculum documents and
35:21
things like that.
35:22
So this is why we have the Australian curriculum that we have
35:26
and why we have the
35:27
VCE exams that we have because these are the people you have to
35:30
draw upon to design
35:33
SPEAKER_01: those things.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: I, on that note, recently got to looking at it.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: I was at the Carl Hendrick PD a couple of weeks ago and
35:42
And there was a question raised about the Australian science
35:45
curriculum and the
35:46
SPEAKER_00: fact that if you're talking about senior science,
35:49
SPEAKER_00: they said,
35:50
SPEAKER_00: well,
35:50
there's no point doing retrieval practice because the content
35:53
that you do in,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Unit 1 and Unit 2 or in Year 11,
35:57
SPEAKER_00: that doesn't carry it all to Year 12.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, that seems crazy.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Surely not.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: And I'm a qualified science teacher, but I've not taught it in a while.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: But genuinely, that's right.
36:09
What they base the continuity on between the years is this idea
36:13
of science inquiry
36:14
SPEAKER_00: as being a skill,
36:15
SPEAKER_00: not the content itself.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: There's no content from, you know, I say there's none.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: That's a bit of a generalization.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: There's little bits of crossover,
36:22
SPEAKER_00: but generally you're doing distinct units in year 11,
36:26
SPEAKER_00: distinct units in year 12 with very little content.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: And I went,
36:30
SPEAKER_00: well,
36:30
the curriculum's been designed based on this idea that we've
36:33
got these transferable
36:34
skills between years and that you can build students up in
36:36
those and that the
36:38
SPEAKER_00: knowledge itself is less important than
36:58
SPEAKER_00: And it was just this wild, I don't know, discovery for me.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: There's a rabbit hole for me to sort of end up in.
37:07
No one involved in making decisions about Australian curriculum
37:11
or assessments or
37:13
SPEAKER_01: things like that has any understanding of learning theory.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: No.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they believe in transferable skills.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
37:21
SPEAKER_01: in the Australian curriculum,
37:22
SPEAKER_01: you've got the general capabilities,
37:24
SPEAKER_01: which are not general.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: So people believe in things that aren't true.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Now, this discussion would bore Marty completely.
37:32
But another thing he did recently is he published a FOI request
37:38
that he lodged ages ago.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: So a few years ago, Marty and I...
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:00
But he did this FYI request around this and he's got all these
38:04
emails backwards and
38:05
SPEAKER_01: forwards between various people at the VCAA and AMSI,
38:10
SPEAKER_01: this Australian Mathematical Sciences Institute,
38:14
which is where all the mathematicians belong to and they came
38:17
out in support of the
38:18
SPEAKER_01: curriculum.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: They really organised and coordinated the
38:22
And one of the most revealing bits for me is you go through and
38:28
the person who had,
38:29
SPEAKER_01: seems to be,
38:31
SPEAKER_01: was most in charge of drafting this draft maths curriculum,
38:35
SPEAKER_01: who I'd actually met online because I'd got a,
38:39
SPEAKER_01: I was given like a preview of the curriculum.
38:41
I think they were trying to kind of win me round and see off
38:44
any opposition,
38:45
SPEAKER_01: but it was,
38:47
SPEAKER_01: it was so bad.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it wasn't going to work.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: Get the enemy on side first.
38:53
That person who drafted it said – so there was an article in
38:58
the paper where John
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Sweller was quoted,
39:00
SPEAKER_01: and I think I put the journalist onto John Sweller.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: And this person says, do we know who John Sweller is?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: So the person who had drafted – What?
39:07
SPEAKER_01: Did they not?
39:08
SPEAKER_01: – had no idea who John Sweller was.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: So he's obviously – Oh, he's awful.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Father of cognitive load theory, but he's not American or something.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: He's Australian.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: He's like a homegrown –
39:21
A world expert in this area,
39:23
and the person drafting the curriculum doesn't know who he is.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: So I think, yeah, I mean, this is what we're up against.
39:29
And this is what I would like the politicians to spend their
39:32
time reforming,
39:35
SPEAKER_01: these structures that are imposed upon us by people who don't really know
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Shall we go on to the next article?
40:01
SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:02
So this is in The Educator and it's principles call for NAPLAN
40:07
writing tests to be axed.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Now, I don't know if I have much to say about this really.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: I think to our audience, it's pretty much self-refuting.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: If I just read a little bit of this.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: So you've got this guy, the AGPPA.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: So that's the Australian Government Primary Principles Association.
40:28
So Pat Murphy says that,
40:30
you know,
40:30
we need to completely reform the NAPLAN writing test.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: It's no good.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not modern enough.
40:38
The review should consider the need for higher order skills
40:42
students need.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: So already we've talked about that, but
40:46
SPEAKER_01: Get this, in an increasingly AI-enabled world, right?
40:51
In practice,
40:52
this would involve moving towards a more balanced assessment
40:55
model.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: What would that look like?
40:57
SPEAKER_00: He explains this.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Murphy says this could look like students drafting,
41:01
SPEAKER_01: editing,
41:01
SPEAKER_01: and refining writing,
41:03
using digital and AI tools while being assessed on creativity
41:07
and critical
41:08
SPEAKER_01: thinking.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, come on.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: We're going to let AI write the assessments for the kids and...
41:15
SPEAKER_00: And their job is just to decide what they want to say.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: By itself,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: because when I was reading this,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: I wrote the note,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: if we want students to draft things,
41:23
SPEAKER_00: we probably need to teach them to write anyway,
41:26
at which point we could just assess them on their ability to do
41:30
that initial
41:30
SPEAKER_00: writing so that we know whether they can do that.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: And then whether they use AI down the line for something or not,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: it is what it is and they'll have opportunities to do that.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: But
41:41
Surely if you're going to draft something to put it into AI in
41:46
the first place,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: or you're going to read something that AI,
41:48
SPEAKER_00: because we know that if you go on to Substack and you see a post,
42:00
SPEAKER_00: you can be,
42:01
now I'm not going to say you can be sure that it's AI written
42:03
because you can't,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: but there are things where you go,
42:07
SPEAKER_00: man,
42:07
SPEAKER_00: that looks like that's written by AI.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: That's a thing that you think.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: There is a really distinct difference between,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: I had someone who read one of my posts the other day,
42:17
SPEAKER_00: not a teacher,
42:18
SPEAKER_00: someone out of the field read one of my sub stacks and they said,
42:21
SPEAKER_00: man,
42:21
SPEAKER_00: so do you just write this or like does AI do it for you?
42:23
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure you can tell it's entirely me.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it's a little bit chaotic.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'm like, we circle around a point.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: There are grammatical errors.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it's a bit chaotic and sarcastic.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I would love to see it.
42:37
I want to say,
42:37
I'd love to say,
42:38
I've tried to be like,
42:39
hey,
42:39
can you write this in my style?
42:41
SPEAKER_00: No, no, it cannot.
42:43
You actually need a basic level of skill to be able to do this
42:47
in the first place.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: So in itself, it doesn't even make sense.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're arguing for something, but that's not practical.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't work.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: No,
42:56
but it goes to this fundamental issue of reducing schooling
43:01
down to kind of
43:03
SPEAKER_01: preparation for work.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: It's...
43:07
SPEAKER_01: The only purpose of school.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: It's a really degraded view of education.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: So I think this sometimes starts when we say to kids,
43:16
SPEAKER_01: oh,
43:16
SPEAKER_01: they say,
43:16
SPEAKER_01: why do we have to learn maths?
43:17
And you say,
43:18
well,
43:18
you need to be able to count your change at the supermarket.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, for a start, they don't because everyone just taps a card now.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: But when you start selling education that way, it's useful in real life.
43:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, you're selling a bit of a lie.
43:31
Because Ronald Munro's got a cartoon,
43:33
ex-gay CD cartoon,
43:34
called Forgot Algebra.
43:36
And he makes the point that basically you don't really need to
43:39
know anything.
43:39
To live in a modern welfare state,
43:43
you don't really need to know or be able to do anything.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: Nothing is necessary.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: They're all a bonus.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: And why do we want kids to be educated?
43:54
Because we want their minds to be a fulfilling place to spend
43:56
the rest of their lives.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: That's why we want to educate them, not
43:59
SPEAKER_01: So that they can perform this function or that function.
44:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
44:02
SPEAKER_01: that's a nice byproduct that they can go out and,
44:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
44:06
work in industries because they've got really sort of subtle
44:10
minds and they know
44:11
SPEAKER_01: lots of things and they can do all that sort of stuff.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: It's a nice byproduct.
44:14
And obviously it's the sort of economic rationale for why you
44:17
would fund schooling.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: But education is about much more than that.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: And when people get confused about that...
44:22
But it was much more than that before we kind of had the modern
44:25
day workplace.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: Like we were still teaching people things and passing down knowledge.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Because it takes a long time to discover this knowledge from scratch,
44:34
SPEAKER_00: which is why discovery learning isn't an effective method for novices.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: It takes a really long time.
44:40
So part of us passing down that knowledge is so that we're
44:44
retaining that and we're
44:45
building up a civilization of people who are educated and have
44:49
this base level of
44:51
SPEAKER_00: knowledge.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
44:53
But when you start moving into this idea,
44:56
well,
44:56
is it useful in everyday life?
44:57
SPEAKER_01: You can basically explain everything away.
44:59
So there's this game that goes on where you find a bit of the
45:02
curriculum that you
45:02
SPEAKER_01: don't like,
45:03
SPEAKER_01: and then you say it's not useful.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: But you can do that to any bit of the curriculum.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:23
No,
45:24
it's like saying we're not going to teach kids to paint because
45:26
we can take photographs.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: We're not going to teach,
45:29
SPEAKER_01: and this happens a lot,
45:30
we're not going to teach kids to do basic maths because there's
45:32
calculators.
45:46
This story goes on as different technologies are introduced in
45:49
different areas.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: Now,
45:50
SPEAKER_01: you've got to have someone that can design the calculator for a start,
45:53
SPEAKER_01: ultimately,
45:56
SPEAKER_01: and you've got to have people that understand what's going on.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: But also, the ability to write is a gift to
46:07
SPEAKER_01: It might not be one that kids are particularly keen to receive initially,
46:11
SPEAKER_01: but it's a civilizational gift,
46:13
SPEAKER_01: as you have said.
46:14
SPEAKER_01: So,
46:14
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
46:15
SPEAKER_01: later on,
46:15
if they want to use AI to rewrite things or to draft things or
46:20
to write a substat
46:21
SPEAKER_01: that people go,
46:21
SPEAKER_01: oh,
46:21
SPEAKER_01: that's been written by Al,
46:23
SPEAKER_01: they can go for that.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: But when they're in school...
46:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: This new technology means it's all obsolete.
46:43
That's been a real tragedy when it's been applied to maths and
46:46
maths teaching.
46:47
And that's why we have exams where you can use CAS calculators
46:51
in Victoria.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a really bad idea.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Let's not compound that error by doing the same to writing.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: All right.
47:06
So our final article,
47:08
this one was actually passed on to me by a listener.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: This featured in the Australian Educator Autumn Edition.
47:14
The article is by Tracey Evans and it's called Reimagining
47:17
Schools Where Teachers
47:18
SPEAKER_00: and Students Thrive.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: And in this,
47:22
SPEAKER_00: Tracey Evans,
47:23
she draws on the work of authors and former teachers Michael
47:27
Lawrence and Dr.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Fabio de Gostin.
47:32
And the article,
47:32
like,
47:33
there's two main points that it makes that I want to touch on.
47:36
And the first of those that I'll start with because it's
47:39
relevant to what we just
47:40
spoke about is that we should get rid of NAPLAN or get rid of
47:44
our standardised
47:45
SPEAKER_00: testing in Australia.
47:48
Well,
47:48
it's very inconvenient,
47:49
Katie,
47:50
because it tells us things that we don't want to know.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's exactly it.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: So, look, the language in this article is interesting.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: They say that it is effectively forcing teachers to teach to the test and
48:02
SPEAKER_00: insidiously infiltrating everyday teaching and learning.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: They've got some absolute horror language in this article.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: It's terrifying.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: NAPLAN is awful.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm hearing.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: No, they speak about getting rid of NAPLAN.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I
48:21
I want to draw on a quote before I get into the discussion on
48:23
it because there's one in here.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: NAPLAN does nothing other than depress students.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a bit rough.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
48:33
so I tried searching to find out if there'd been any studies
48:38
done on NAPLAN and
48:39
SPEAKER_00: depressing students.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: And believe it or not, I came up very short in my search on that one.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: So that was a big claim.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: No, look...
48:50
One of the arguments I make is get rid of NAPLAN because they
48:53
speak about the fact
48:54
that NAPLAN has essentially reduced all teaching to just
48:58
teaching to the test and
48:59
to this idea of striving for pure results and that that's too
49:03
much of a focus.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: But you, I mean, you've said exactly what it is.
49:07
The reason that we don't like NAPLAN is because NAPLAN tells us
49:10
information that we
49:12
SPEAKER_00: don't want to hear.
49:13
The purpose of a standardized test like NAPLAN is so that at a
49:19
certain point in
49:19
SPEAKER_00: time,
49:20
we have this national data collection on here's where our
49:26
students are with
49:27
SPEAKER_00: literacy and numeracy,
49:29
SPEAKER_00: here's how our different schools compare.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: And realistically, it is an accountability measure.
49:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they say rigid accountability frameworks in here, but it is.
49:39
There's nothing wrong with us having an accountability measure
49:42
because if the
49:44
SPEAKER_00: If things like NAPLAN don't exist,
49:47
SPEAKER_00: then we have no way of knowing,
49:50
and I'm going to assume that we're still in a world if we get
49:55
rid of NAPLAN where
49:56
SPEAKER_00: there are end of year 12 external exams that are done,
50:00
SPEAKER_00: and that's still a thing.
50:01
We have no way of knowing how schools are performing against
50:04
one another until
50:05
SPEAKER_00: students get to the end of year 12 or the end of secondary school,
50:09
SPEAKER_00: and they've now got a score that they need to determine,
50:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:13
SPEAKER_00: or
50:13
SPEAKER_00: Entrance into tertiary pathways if that's what they want to do.
50:17
That means we're leaving absolutely every part of their
50:19
education to chance,
50:21
which I'm not saying we're necessarily doing every part of
50:23
their education well,
50:24
but it means that we're accepting that we're going to leave
50:27
every part of their
50:27
education to chance without an external body up until they hit
50:32
end of year 12.
50:33
But if you're a primary school that wants to use ineffective
50:36
teaching methods and
50:37
SPEAKER_01: you get rid of NAPLAN,
50:38
then no one will ever know that you're using ineffective
50:41
teaching methods.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: And that's part of what this is about.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, NAPLAN isn't perfect.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: Far, far.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, because that's huge as an issue.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: But at least it's something.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: And look, I would give a half-life to this idea of teaching to the test.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: I think when you don't know what to do,
51:27
SPEAKER_01: what you do is you just give kids loads of practice NAPLAN papers.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: So you get them to do loads of grammar papers.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: You don't teach them any grammar.
51:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, who would think of that?
51:35
You would just give them loads of practice of grammar papers
51:39
and hope for the best.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: And of course, that would be quite demoralizing and quite...
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Not a great educational experience.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: So I think that there is an element of that.
51:50
But my solution,
51:52
and again,
51:52
we're sort of circling right the way back to the start here.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: What about your policy conversation, Jay?
51:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is we should have better NAPLAN.
52:02
And that's something that our politicians should be focused on,
52:06
improving that.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: So,
52:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
52:09
SPEAKER_01: at the moment now,
52:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
52:10
SPEAKER_01: the way that it is,
52:11
SPEAKER_01: you don't even get to see the questions.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: So, it's really hard.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it works as an accountability measure.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: You don't mean before the case.
52:18
SPEAKER_00: You're talking after the fact, just for people who are listening.
52:21
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, afterwards.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: So,
52:22
SPEAKER_01: like as a parent,
52:24
I've got some sort of measure of how my child's going compared
52:27
to other kids.
52:28
So I can get really worried if I think they're really behind
52:33
and maybe ask
52:34
SPEAKER_01: questions of the school and things like that.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: So it kind of works like that.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: But for schools, it's very, very poor.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: Like the results do not come out until months afterwards.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: So like whatever they tell you...
52:46
Wild When It Is Now Like If I'm Talking The Maths Results It's
52:50
Digital It's
52:51
Automatic They Should Be Available Instantly Yeah But No
52:54
They're Not Available Till
52:55
Months Later And You Don't See The Questions So Obviously Yeah
53:01
You Don't Want To
53:02
See Them In Advance But You Should Be Able To See Them
53:04
Afterwards So So You Can
53:06
Make Some Meaning From What The Kids Have Done On It You Don't
53:10
Know What They're
53:11
SPEAKER_01: Struggling With I Mean They Give You A Sort Of
53:13
SPEAKER_01: And you sample questions,
53:19
SPEAKER_00: but there's some arbitrary measures,
53:21
like there's a difficulty level assigned to a question and you
53:24
don't know what
53:25
SPEAKER_00: constitutes a particular difficulty level,
53:28
SPEAKER_00: which is really hard.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say difficulty is somewhat subjective.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: What are we doing to change that?
53:36
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of things where the data could be more useful.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so look, we could improve NAPLAN.
53:46
The other thing that they have a crank out as is normal is they
53:49
have a go.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: What's it?
53:50
SPEAKER_01: The false promise of direct instruction.
53:53
SPEAKER_01: Just as NAPLAN narrows the learning,
53:55
the rise of scripted instruction as a style of learning further
53:58
constrains
53:59
SPEAKER_01: creativity and autonomy.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: Now here-
54:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, again, yeah.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: So,
54:11
SPEAKER_01: again,
54:12
SPEAKER_01: do they mean actual scripted DI,
54:14
SPEAKER_01: like the Zig Engelman stuff,
54:15
SPEAKER_01: where there is a script for the teacher to read from?
54:18
Or are they implying,
54:20
is it the PowerPoints,
54:22
again,
54:22
that they're thinking are scripted?
54:23
SPEAKER_01: They do mention PowerPoints some way, don't they?
54:26
SPEAKER_00: They do.
54:26
The authors say it simplifies teaching to the point where
54:29
anyone can teach using
54:30
SPEAKER_00: scripted lessons and PowerPoint slides.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: That sounds like a good thing.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well...
54:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
54:38
SPEAKER_00: it just,
54:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
54:39
SPEAKER_00: the problem is it has,
54:41
SPEAKER_00: and I quote,
54:41
SPEAKER_00: no regard for student interest,
54:43
SPEAKER_00: independence or autonomy.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: I just,
54:46
SPEAKER_00: I think you're going to be hard pressed to find,
54:49
SPEAKER_00: this is the whole premise of,
54:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
54:51
SPEAKER_00: Daniel Willingham's book,
54:52
SPEAKER_00: Why Students Don't Like School.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Thinking is really hard and for a young,
54:59
SPEAKER_00: for a child to go into a classroom and be given the option of,
55:02
SPEAKER_00: do you want to learn how to,
55:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:05
SPEAKER_00: learn how to write something,
55:06
which is going to be really hard and it's going to be a
55:08
challenge and early on
55:09
SPEAKER_00: you're going to struggle with it.
55:11
Do you want to do that or do you want to go off and play with
55:14
your friends or do
55:15
SPEAKER_00: something that interests you?
55:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, they're going to pick the thing that interests them.
55:19
But it's that idea that sometimes the things that we want and
55:22
the things that are
55:23
SPEAKER_00: going to be easier,
55:24
SPEAKER_00: they're not always going to be the better option overall.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: And so part of your job in a school is to,
55:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
55:31
it's to build that nice on-ramp where we are teaching in such a
55:34
way that we're
55:35
SPEAKER_00: making the learning accessible to students so it's not impossible.
55:39
But at the same time it's not always going to be an enjoyable
55:42
experience and if
55:44
we're aiming for that I don't know that we're going to get very
55:46
far with education
55:48
SPEAKER_00: as a whole.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: I joke that we, like, I mean, we're both maths teachers, Greg.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: I joke that we teach the least popular subject.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, notoriously, people really like to slam maths.
55:58
SPEAKER_00: And if people outside of education go, what do you do for work?
56:01
SPEAKER_00: I say, I'm a maths teacher.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: They go, oh, I hate maths.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: I was never good at maths since.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like the first line.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: People just absolutely slam it.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's not going to be popular.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: So does that mean that we just should stop doing it altogether?
56:15
SPEAKER_00: We shouldn't give anyone the opportunity to be able to do it?
56:20
Yeah,
56:20
look,
56:21
and it goes back to the biologically primary,
56:23
biologically secondary stuff.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: We're motivated to learn biologically primary knowledge.
56:28
We're not motivated to learn biologically secondary knowledge,
56:31
not naturally anyway.
56:32
SPEAKER_01: That motivation comes later.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
56:37
so it could be maybe initially it's extrinsic motivators and
56:42
then we can get some
56:43
intrinsic motivation later on when we see ourselves improving
56:46
in the subject and
56:47
SPEAKER_01: things like that.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's...
56:51
SPEAKER_01: Look,
56:52
the article is really making a case for the very common
56:56
romantic or progressive
56:58
view of teaching that it should kind of be joyful and joyous
57:02
and kids should be
57:03
SPEAKER_01: self-motivated and things like that.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: Creativity and stuff, yeah.
57:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, creative, that sort of thing.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: But again,
57:12
the problem with that tradition in education is that it just
57:16
hasn't delivered the
57:17
SPEAKER_01: goods and it's been around for at least 150 years.
57:22
SPEAKER_01: People have been making this case and...
57:26
And it just hasn't been an effective form of instruction
57:32
whenever it's been tried.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I suppose it is logical,
57:35
SPEAKER_01: therefore,
57:35
to take away the measures that show that it's not as effective
57:39
if it's the path
57:41
SPEAKER_01: that you're committed to.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: Thank you everyone for listening to today's episode.
57:50
Any of the resources that we've referenced today can be found
57:52
down in the show
57:53
SPEAKER_00: notes as well as our socials.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: So if you've seen an article,
57:57
SPEAKER_00: podcast,
57:57
opinion piece or something else that you would like Greg and I
58:00
to discuss on a
58:00
SPEAKER_00: future episode,
58:02
SPEAKER_00: make sure you send it to either of us on any of our socials.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.