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Transcript

Linus O'Brien - Unsung Cinema · Movie Meltdown

0:04
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Patricia Quinn, and you're luckily listening to Movie Meltdown.
0:31
Speaker 2: What's up, and welcome to Movie Meltdown's Unsung Cinema. I'm Brian,
0:35
Speaker 2: and I was a weird kid. I know you're shocked
0:39
Speaker 2: to hear that, but no, no, it's true. I was unusual,
0:43
Speaker 2: I didn't necessarily fit in, and I was interested in
0:47
Speaker 2: things that maybe the other kids weren't so into. And
0:50
Speaker 2: while now I see the way regular society operates and
0:53
Speaker 2: I embrace not following the norm, but back when I
0:55
Speaker 2: was younger, I didn't really go into it willingly. It's
0:59
Speaker 2: just how it was. But at one point, I was
1:02
Speaker 2: introduced to the Rocky Horror Picture Show. my virgin mind
1:06
Speaker 2: was not prepared for what it was being thrown into.
1:09
Speaker 2: In the middle of people hurling obscenities among other things
1:11
Speaker 2: and breaking out into somewhat choreographed dancing, it was there,
1:16
Speaker 2: in the dark, surrounded by weirdos, that I felt at home.
1:20
Speaker 2: I was already a movie geek at that point, but
1:22
Speaker 2: this was something else. A new level of theatrical experience,
1:26
Speaker 2: and as I walked out into the parking lot that night,
1:29
Speaker 2: which is where all the cool kids congregated, I really
1:31
Speaker 2: didn't know how to process everything I had just seen.
1:34
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you what I did know. I wanted
1:37
Speaker 2: more of it. And the very next week Rocky played there,
1:40
Speaker 2: I was back. And the time after that, and the
1:43
Speaker 2: time after that. And as my fandom grew, I quickly
1:46
Speaker 2: learned that this cult masterpiece all started with one man,
1:50
Speaker 2: Richard O'Brien. Not only was he our beloved riffraff in
1:53
Speaker 2: the movie, but he wrote the original play it was
1:55
Speaker 2: based on, he wrote the songs that made the whole
1:58
Speaker 2: world sing, well, the weirdos anyway, and I thought he
2:02
Speaker 2: was the coolest. I mean, I had his head mounted
2:05
Speaker 2: on my wall. Okay, that's an odd statement. Let me explain.
2:08
Speaker 2: So in my geeky collecting, very early on, I found
2:11
Speaker 2: that they made a cardboard mask of Richard O'Brien's head
2:14
Speaker 2: as a promotional item for shock treatment. Which is an
2:17
Speaker 2: even more obscure reference if you're not a Rocky fan.
2:20
Speaker 2: But it was also created by Richard, and the original
2:22
Speaker 2: poster art was just a shot of Richard O'Brien's head.
2:26
Speaker 2: And I obviously needed that. So of course I had
2:28
Speaker 2: to special order it because they didn't have movie geek
2:31
Speaker 2: merchandise in stores back then. What are you crazy? So
2:34
Speaker 2: I ordered this cardboard cutout of Richard's head from New
2:37
Speaker 2: York or London or wherever it came from. But when
2:40
Speaker 2: it came, I had this big corkboard area in my
2:42
Speaker 2: room and I immediately hung it there with its two
2:44
Speaker 2: little cutout eye holes staring at you. And that's where
2:47
Speaker 2: it stayed for years. So yes, Richard was part of
2:52
Speaker 2: my life. Okay, not quite as much as our guest
2:56
Speaker 2: this episode, who is Linus O'Brien. Yes, Richard's son. Maybe
3:00
Speaker 2: I won't immediately tell him about having his dad's head
3:02
Speaker 2: mounted on my wall. But regardless, Linus has somewhat recently
3:06
Speaker 2: made a documentary called Strange Journey, The Story of Rocky Horror,
3:10
Speaker 2: where he tells the tale of how his father came
3:12
Speaker 2: up with an idea that led to a movie that
3:14
Speaker 2: changed people's lives. So we're going to talk to Linus
3:17
Speaker 2: about his documentary. And then in the usual unsung cinema way,
3:21
Speaker 2: we will round out the episode talking about a movie
3:23
Speaker 2: that he feels doesn't get the attention that it deserves,
3:26
Speaker 2: which this time around is Spike Jonze being John Malkovich.
3:30
Speaker 2: So after all that, I say we go ahead and
3:32
Speaker 2: get right into it as we talk with Linus O'Brien. Well,
3:41
Speaker 2: I usually start at the beginning and sort of get
3:44
Speaker 2: a handle on how people got involved in the arts
3:47
Speaker 2: growing up. You were exposed to it, I assume, from birth, really.
3:52
Speaker 2: So with yours, it's a little different. So I guess
3:56
Speaker 2: more than anything else, were you aware fully, or I
4:01
Speaker 2: guess at what point were you aware fully of how
4:04
Speaker 2: much your dad was involved in stuff that maybe everybody
4:07
Speaker 2: else's family wasn't doing?
4:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing to compare it to, right?
4:13
Speaker 3: I mean... especially at such a young age, you're not
4:16
Speaker 3: really aware of what other people's parents do. So you
4:19
Speaker 3: only have your own parents to go by. And so
4:24
Speaker 3: as a result, it seemed perfectly normal that my dad was,
4:29
Speaker 3: you know, playing the guitar and singing songs around the
4:31
Speaker 3: house all the time. And that we'd be watching movies
4:35
Speaker 3: together and talking about them. And yeah, it was just
4:39
Speaker 3: that that was my life, you know, much the same
4:43
Speaker 3: as if he'd been a an engineer or anything, you know,
4:46
Speaker 3: you just, you, that, that's the life, you know. So yeah,
4:50
Speaker 3: I was very lucky because I feel like I'm very
4:54
Speaker 3: creative person myself and always trying to do creative things, um, that,
4:59
Speaker 3: you know, express, you know, how I feel. Um, so, um,
5:05
Speaker 3: so that was, uh, yeah, it was, that was my life. Very,
5:08
Speaker 3: very lucky and blessed to have it be that way.
5:12
Speaker 2: What were you kind of drawn to that early on? Like,
5:15
Speaker 2: if he wasn't necessarily involved, what kind of movies were
5:18
Speaker 2: you watching that young?
5:19
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, from around the age of around
5:25
Speaker 3: six or seven, you know, my dad and I would
5:29
Speaker 3: watch old Tarzan movies, you know, Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan movies.
5:38
Speaker 3: And then, but everything as well. We'd watch... We go
5:43
Speaker 3: to the movies quite a lot. And the thing that
5:46
Speaker 3: was nice about it is that my dad is very opinionated.
5:51
Speaker 3: Might be one of the most opinionated people I've ever met.
5:54
Speaker 3: And I include myself in that. And as a result,
5:59
Speaker 3: you know, he was always telling me why he liked
6:01
Speaker 3: this actor, why he didn't like this actor or why
6:05
Speaker 3: this was a good movie or what, you know. He
6:10
Speaker 3: always was very able to pick up and see things
6:12
Speaker 3: that other people didn't. So I felt very lucky that
6:18
Speaker 3: I kind of was open to that experience. Because I
6:23
Speaker 3: think when you're trying to do creative stuff, and especially
6:28
Speaker 3: with something like directing, it's all about opinions at the
6:33
Speaker 3: end of the day. About what you like and why
6:36
Speaker 3: you don't like something. And so that's very useful because,
6:42
Speaker 3: you know, even if you go down a wrong path,
6:45
Speaker 3: it's nice to, I don't know, feel like you're drawn
6:51
Speaker 3: inherently to something. I think it makes for better creative
6:57
Speaker 3: work overall. Yeah, yeah.
7:00
Speaker 2: Were you, again, it's relatively young when he's already working
7:04
Speaker 2: on what, I guess... would lead to the movie but
7:07
Speaker 2: when he was doing the play were you already aware
7:10
Speaker 2: that that was going on were you old enough to
7:12
Speaker 2: at least acknowledge that like it was a play and
7:15
Speaker 2: he was going to go do this and or whatever.
7:17
Speaker 3: Yeah it's just so ingrained right because i was about
7:22
Speaker 3: one when the original stage play at the royal court
7:24
Speaker 3: theater had its debut and then i would have been
7:28
Speaker 3: about two and a half when the movie was getting
7:31
Speaker 3: made so it was just oh it was just always
7:35
Speaker 3: there in various incarnations.
7:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a little early for memories, really.
7:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So my first memory of actually seeing the
7:44
Speaker 3: stage show was when I was around four or five
7:47
Speaker 3: at the Kings Road Theater, which was the Osvaldo Theater.
7:51
Speaker 3: You know, Rocky transferred twice down the Kings Road. And
7:56
Speaker 3: the third place was the place it stayed for, I
8:00
Speaker 3: think about seven, eight, nine years down there. So I
8:03
Speaker 3: saw it down there and they let me control the
8:05
Speaker 3: lights around the proscenium from the balcony, which I was
8:09
Speaker 3: very excited about.
8:10
Speaker 2: That's more exciting than any of the stars out there.
8:14
Speaker 3: Exactly. I was like, I've got a switch and it
8:17
Speaker 3: controls things from like 100 feet away. This is like magic.
8:22
Speaker 3: So yeah, that was very exciting. And also old enough
8:26
Speaker 3: to be aware that the original... stage play production of
8:31
Speaker 3: Rocky was very scary in terms of the vibe it
8:35
Speaker 3: set before the stage show began. The actors used to
8:40
Speaker 3: dress up in these disheveled suits with these kind of
8:42
Speaker 3: clear frosted masks and they would lead the ticket goers
8:47
Speaker 3: to their seats silently and it just gave the whole
8:50
Speaker 3: thing a very creepy and kind of foreboding vibe which
8:56
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed actually. And it's still stuck in my
9:00
Speaker 3: head till today.
9:02
Speaker 2: I feel like that's when you get kids that are
9:04
Speaker 2: going to be into horror. When they see, even like
9:06
Speaker 2: you're watching those early Universal movies or something, and it's
9:10
Speaker 2: the fact that it scares them, but they still are
9:12
Speaker 2: drawn to it. It's like, that's how you know it's
9:15
Speaker 2: deep-seated in someone.
9:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not just trying to give them nightmares. There's
9:21
Speaker 3: something more intriguing going on.
9:24
Speaker 2: Well, then I guess on the journey... Film-wise, at least
9:27
Speaker 2: looking at the resume, you end up in a movie.
9:32
Speaker 2: So is Shock Treatment sort of the first time you
9:36
Speaker 2: get exposed to that part of the world?
9:38
Speaker 3: Probably. I mean, I was in my school in one
9:46
Speaker 3: of my first schools, Ibstock in Roehampton. We had a
9:49
Speaker 3: school play, and we were doing St. George and the Dragon.
9:56
Speaker 3: And I was Saint George and the evil Turk was
10:01
Speaker 3: um John Cleese from uh Monty Python um and so
10:06
Speaker 3: that was my first kind of acting role I think
10:10
Speaker 3: I was about six and a half at the time
10:13
Speaker 3: and I was very small as well so the disparity
10:16
Speaker 3: between in height between myself and john cleese it's like
10:20
Speaker 3: what six three six four and you know very lanky
10:24
Speaker 3: and thin i think that was very funny for the
10:27
Speaker 3: audience and and that the annoying thing about that was
10:29
Speaker 3: that i'd learned all my lines and he started to
10:33
Speaker 3: improvise on stage and inside i'm going god what are
10:36
Speaker 3: you doing you're just you're going off script you're ruining
10:39
Speaker 3: it what an amateur god i know but obviously he
10:43
Speaker 3: had the the audience in stitches so That was my
10:47
Speaker 3: first acting role and then probably Shock Treatment. And then
10:50
Speaker 3: I was in this movie called Digital Dreams. It was
10:54
Speaker 3: made by Bill Wyman of the Rolling Stones. He decided
10:59
Speaker 3: to make a film, so I was in that for
11:01
Speaker 3: a bit. And then an extra in Robin of Sherwood.
11:06
Speaker 3: It was a TV show in England about Robin Hood.
11:11
Speaker 2: It starred, uh, Connery's son, Jason.
11:14
Speaker 3: Yeah. Jason Connery. Yeah. Uh, my, my dad was, uh, was, uh,
11:19
Speaker 3: like a evil character in that. And, and, uh, I
11:22
Speaker 3: got to be an extra for two or three episodes. Uh,
11:26
Speaker 3: that that's pretty much the extent of my formal acting career.
11:29
Speaker 3: I did some more stage plays in, uh, in high school, uh,
11:34
Speaker 3: but never really had the, like the huge desire to, uh,
11:40
Speaker 3: to make it a career. I think you, you have
11:43
Speaker 3: to be very vulnerable if you're an actor. And I,
11:45
Speaker 3: and I was never prepared to do that. So it
11:49
Speaker 3: makes it very tricky. Uh, it's not to say I wouldn't,
11:51
Speaker 3: I'd like to play, I would like to play like
11:53
Speaker 3: a South London gangster in something, but I do feel
11:57
Speaker 3: like drawn to doing something like that. Um, but, but
12:01
Speaker 3: as for like, you know, taking any role, which comes
12:05
Speaker 3: my way, which you kind of need to do if
12:07
Speaker 3: you're going to make it a career, uh, I don't
12:09
Speaker 3: have the, um, stomach for that.
12:11
Speaker 2: Were you drawn to more of the behind the scenes
12:13
Speaker 2: since you at least you know you're an extra so
12:15
Speaker 2: you're kind of seeing the filming of it was it
12:17
Speaker 2: was any of that interesting.
12:19
Speaker 3: I mean a little bit i i was always drawn
12:22
Speaker 3: to music uh first and i that's why i started
12:25
Speaker 3: a record label and became a dj and an electronic
12:29
Speaker 3: music producer that was always the the thing i loved
12:32
Speaker 3: the most because it was so immediate you know uh
12:36
Speaker 3: that's the thing i liked about it and then you
12:38
Speaker 3: know Over the years, and especially directing the documentary, it's
12:43
Speaker 3: given me an avenue to now... I've just finished writing
12:46
Speaker 3: a screenplay, which was a really nice process. It was
12:51
Speaker 3: such a grind the first two or three months. I
12:55
Speaker 3: was dragging my feet. I'd write maybe one paragraph, and
12:59
Speaker 3: then another day I'd write a sentence. I was just
13:03
Speaker 3: dragging myself through it. And then once it started to coalesce,
13:07
Speaker 3: then I started to get excited about it and it
13:10
Speaker 3: became really fun. So I've got to do a few
13:13
Speaker 3: more drafts of it, but, um, that was a very,
13:16
Speaker 3: it was a really nice process. And, uh, and, uh, yeah,
13:20
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to, to keep doing that. Cause I'd,
13:23
Speaker 3: I'd like to direct the screenplay I've written.
13:26
Speaker 2: That's what I was going to say with, with the documentary.
13:28
Speaker 2: What was it? Cause I think you had said you'd
13:31
Speaker 2: seen just like comments on, on people online that were
13:35
Speaker 2: talking about Rocky.
13:36
Speaker 1: Yeah.
13:37
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, it was my dad had asked my brother
13:39
Speaker 3: and I to put together a clip package for him for,
13:41
Speaker 3: I think, an anniversary, like a birthday show, like a
13:44
Speaker 3: live birthday show he was doing. So in between songs,
13:47
Speaker 3: he wanted to show a clip package of some of
13:49
Speaker 3: the films he'd been in. So we started going through
13:52
Speaker 3: YouTube and looking at everything. And yeah, when I came
13:55
Speaker 3: across the comments underneath, I'm going home. That's when I really,
13:59
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this is so much more than
14:04
Speaker 3: than what we realized. I mean, we always knew it
14:06
Speaker 3: touched people and how important it was, but you don't
14:10
Speaker 3: understand the depth of things until much later in some cases.
14:17
Speaker 3: And because the comments underneath the clip of I'm Going
14:19
Speaker 3: Home were just, it wasn't like, oh, this is great,
14:22
Speaker 3: I love this. It was like, oh, this changed my life,
14:25
Speaker 3: I listened to this, I played this at my father's funeral,
14:28
Speaker 3: I played this when I was on tour in Iraq.
14:31
Speaker 3: Like it was those levels of comments underneath, which really
14:37
Speaker 3: made it clear that the fans should be celebrated. And
14:41
Speaker 3: then I got to celebrate my dad's work in the process.
14:44
Speaker 3: So yeah, it just, it came together really nicely. I
14:49
Speaker 3: had the idea. I took it to my friend who's
14:51
Speaker 3: an editor. He took it to his producers. Within, you know,
14:55
Speaker 3: half an hour of meeting them, they wanted me to
14:57
Speaker 3: direct it. And so creatively, it came together very quickly.
15:02
Speaker 3: But financially, it took a little while to bring it
15:06
Speaker 3: all together. Yeah.
15:07
Speaker 2: Did you have any doubt that you weren't the person
15:11
Speaker 2: to do it? Or were you just set on like, well,
15:13
Speaker 2: I've got the inside track here. Why would it be
15:15
Speaker 2: anyone else?
15:16
Speaker 3: I mean, at first, I think for like five minutes,
15:18
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, really? And then I realized that
15:21
Speaker 3: I'm probably the best person suited to direct it just
15:25
Speaker 3: because of my proximity to Rocky over the years. and
15:29
Speaker 3: hearing all the stories from all the cast members and
15:32
Speaker 3: my dad and just being around it, I was like, okay,
15:36
Speaker 3: there's no, who, who else was going to do this,
15:38
Speaker 3: you know? Um, and, uh, so yeah, it just became,
15:42
Speaker 3: it just made sense, you know? So I, I, I
15:46
Speaker 3: relished the opportunity and was very, very happy to do it. And,
15:49
Speaker 3: and I have a, I had a great creative partner
15:52
Speaker 3: to work with, Avner Shaloa, who was the editor on
15:54
Speaker 3: The Dissident. It was quite a famous documentary and he
15:57
Speaker 3: did Yacht Rock and Woodstock 99. We've been friends for
16:01
Speaker 3: over 20 years. And so there was a real shorthand there.
16:05
Speaker 3: So that made everything really easy when we came to
16:08
Speaker 3: editing it. It was like he thought they might be
16:11
Speaker 3: difficult because maybe we'd, you know, dig in our feet
16:15
Speaker 3: when it came to certain decisions. But no, I think
16:18
Speaker 3: it was a tremendous amount of respect for both of us.
16:20
Speaker 3: So if someone was adamant that something needed to be included,
16:24
Speaker 3: the other one listened. So and vice versa. So I
16:27
Speaker 3: think directing requires a bit of ego, right? That you're
16:33
Speaker 3: going to be the voice of all of this stuff.
16:36
Speaker 3: And so I think that's always why I never really
16:41
Speaker 3: considered it as a career because I never figured that
16:45
Speaker 3: I could or should put myself out there to that
16:49
Speaker 3: degree where I'm the one making all the decisions. But
16:52
Speaker 3: I think I'm actually kind of suited towards it. So
16:55
Speaker 3: I'm lucky to have been given this opportunity and hopefully
16:59
Speaker 3: turn it into to a to a real career.
17:01
Speaker 2: Yeah that's what i was gonna ask about the editing
17:03
Speaker 2: because i know sometimes directors are more involved than others
17:07
Speaker 2: sometimes they just hand it to the editor and be
17:10
Speaker 2: like all right you do your job now but this
17:12
Speaker 2: one i i do have to say i really did
17:14
Speaker 2: like the the pacing of it and that the way
17:17
Speaker 2: it sort of comes together it really does like evenly
17:20
Speaker 2: sort of lay out the groundwork as you get into
17:22
Speaker 2: it and then once you get into like the the
17:25
Speaker 2: full on experience with the fan base. It, it, it
17:28
Speaker 2: balances all of that out nicely. So it's, yeah, it's really,
17:31
Speaker 2: thank you.
17:32
Speaker 3: I think that the trick of it is, is that
17:33
Speaker 3: we wanted, I wanted to hold, get people's attention right
17:37
Speaker 3: from the beginning and hold it throughout. Uh, you might
17:40
Speaker 3: have some like, you know, slightly slower and quieter moments
17:45
Speaker 3: within it, but it doesn't last for long. And, and they're,
17:49
Speaker 3: they're just as engaging. So, Uh, you know, that's the
17:53
Speaker 3: trick of it. I just, it had for me, I
17:55
Speaker 3: wanted to have it this kind of quick tempo to it.
17:58
Speaker 3: And some people say it's too short and I somewhat
18:03
Speaker 3: agree with them, but it's, uh, at the end of
18:08
Speaker 3: the day, I'm very happy with the movie. Right. So,
18:11
Speaker 3: you know, we didn't want to repeat ourselves. If someone
18:13
Speaker 3: was saying the same thing, like a talking heads, we're
18:16
Speaker 3: both saying the same thing. We picked the one that
18:18
Speaker 3: was best and just went with it. You don't have
18:20
Speaker 3: to repeat yourself.
18:21
Speaker 2: That's what I was going to say. You'd have to
18:23
Speaker 2: cap it off at some point because you can talk
18:25
Speaker 2: to people. Like I just, after watching this, I went
18:28
Speaker 2: through this whole flashback of like everything that I went
18:31
Speaker 2: through as, as a kid watching it. And like all
18:33
Speaker 2: the people that I've come in contact with over the
18:35
Speaker 2: years and how much they've been a fan, like literally
18:38
Speaker 2: on this show years ago, there was a, an artist
18:41
Speaker 2: that I met and we did an episode of talking
18:43
Speaker 2: about his art. And then we did another one and
18:45
Speaker 2: we were like, okay, we can talk about a movie.
18:47
Speaker 2: And he, immediately was like, Oh, Rocky, obviously. And like,
18:51
Speaker 2: so he started talking about it and it was like,
18:54
Speaker 2: the title was how Rocky horror changed my life. And
18:57
Speaker 2: it like, it, it went through how it just everything
19:01
Speaker 2: from that point on everything changed for him. And I
19:04
Speaker 2: was like, it's, it's that times a million different people
19:08
Speaker 2: out there.
19:08
Speaker 3: I know it is really, it's bizarre. And you know, I,
19:12
Speaker 3: and like I said, so I was shocked when I,
19:15
Speaker 3: saw the comments under the YouTube thing. So I have
19:18
Speaker 3: a full understanding at that point of how deep it
19:20
Speaker 3: is for everyone. And then as you go through making
19:23
Speaker 3: the documentary, like you, that becomes clearer and more people
19:26
Speaker 3: come up to me and say, listen, if my wife
19:28
Speaker 3: and I met at Rocky like 32 years ago and
19:32
Speaker 3: she wanted me to tell you and your dad that
19:35
Speaker 3: if it wasn't for Rocky, she wouldn't be alive today.
19:39
Speaker 3: And you're like, okay, all right. That's a lot. That's serious. Like,
19:45
Speaker 3: amazing that it did that. And then, and then it
19:47
Speaker 3: just keeps on happening. And so with, you know, tim
19:50
Speaker 3: curry passing away this week you know that has even
19:55
Speaker 3: come to the forefront even more than ever so it
19:58
Speaker 3: is it is startling i you know and i've said
20:02
Speaker 3: this in other places you know rocky has saved the
20:05
Speaker 3: lives of hundreds of thousands of people And I don't
20:09
Speaker 3: know if you can say that about another work of art.
20:12
Speaker 3: You know, song, TV, show, album, movie, painting, whatever it is, book.
20:18
Speaker 3: You know, I just don't, I really don't know if
20:21
Speaker 3: something else exists. And that's not to try and say
20:25
Speaker 3: Rocky is better than any other piece of work of art.
20:27
Speaker 3: It's just very unique.
20:29
Speaker 2: It hits differently, like on so many levels, in so
20:32
Speaker 2: many different ways, for so many different people.
20:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can just have... For some people, it can
20:38
Speaker 3: just be a nice Friday night out. You enjoy the songs.
20:42
Speaker 3: You love laughing along with it. And then that could
20:45
Speaker 3: be it. But for other people, it becomes this 10, 15, 20-year,
20:49
Speaker 3: 30-year commitment where they meet all their friends. They meet
20:53
Speaker 3: their family. They meet their husband. They meet their wives.
20:56
Speaker 3: They have children because of Rocky. It becomes like a
21:01
Speaker 3: lifelong thing. And so... What a wonderful gift to be
21:05
Speaker 3: able to give to the world where you can have
21:09
Speaker 3: a place where people don't have to be shamed about
21:14
Speaker 3: their bodies, right? We all carry around shame about our bodies, right?
21:18
Speaker 3: This kind of body dysmorphia thing that we all carry
21:21
Speaker 3: around in various ways. And so Rocky was able to
21:25
Speaker 3: provide a place where it didn't matter how you looked
21:29
Speaker 3: or how you look. You could just be there and
21:31
Speaker 3: you could be a sexual person And get to enjoy
21:36
Speaker 3: one of the best things about being human. And what
21:40
Speaker 3: a lovely gift that is to the world. And so unexpected.
21:43
Speaker 3: My dad never intended for a second for any of
21:46
Speaker 3: this to happen. Like, it didn't even cross his mind.
21:50
Speaker 3: He wasn't trying to make a statement about gender identity
21:53
Speaker 3: or politics or anything like that. It was just meant
21:56
Speaker 3: to be fun. And as a result, you know, all
22:00
Speaker 3: of this other stuff happened.
22:01
Speaker 2: It is, it is amazing how many different points it hits.
22:05
Speaker 2: Cause that's, I mean, right. Kind of at the beginning there,
22:08
Speaker 2: you get into Trixie and like, you get into like,
22:11
Speaker 2: finally I could go somewhere and I was accepted, you know, I'm,
22:14
Speaker 2: I was gay and I, you know, nobody else, you know,
22:17
Speaker 2: anywhere else in my life, could I be open about that?
22:19
Speaker 2: And then he went there and like that changed everything.
22:22
Speaker 2: So it was like that there's that. And I've heard
22:25
Speaker 2: that a lot over the years. The thing that I
22:28
Speaker 2: was thinking as I was watching this is like, I
22:31
Speaker 2: think maybe the most impressive thing that it did at
22:33
Speaker 2: that time, and I would assume as part of the
22:36
Speaker 2: legacy now, was it also brought in equally as many
22:41
Speaker 2: straight people just for the spectacle of it or whatever
22:45
Speaker 2: they'd heard about it. It was sort of like... But.
22:48
Speaker 3: Straight people want to feel free as well. Straight people
22:51
Speaker 3: have hang-ups about their sexuality. It's not really about who
22:55
Speaker 3: you're attracted to or who you love. It's about feeling
22:58
Speaker 3: free to... kind of explores sex and sexuality, but in
23:04
Speaker 3: a very kind of gentle and titillating way. That's not
23:09
Speaker 3: like male dominated, you know? And I think that that's,
23:13
Speaker 3: that's really important. Um, you know, it's like when you
23:16
Speaker 3: go to a gay bar, the vibe in that gay
23:19
Speaker 3: bars is, is awesome. Like I went to one like
23:23
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago and it was just, you know,
23:25
Speaker 3: it felt super relaxed and, Like, it's so down to earth,
23:29
Speaker 3: and then, you know, it's not like this, you know,
23:31
Speaker 3: the thing that comes with, you know, heterosexual males, is
23:35
Speaker 3: that it just becomes kind of this, it can become,
23:38
Speaker 3: like a very kind of obnoxious and kind of, I
23:43
Speaker 3: don't know, just overly masculine and testosterone-based kind of thing,
23:50
Speaker 3: which is just, you know, I'm not into you. And
23:53
Speaker 3: so Rocky provided a place where, you know, heterosexual males and,
23:59
Speaker 3: you know, gay people and bisexual people could all be
24:03
Speaker 3: together and just kind of enjoy the outskirts of sexuality, right?
24:09
Speaker 3: Which is such a nice thing to do. It's such a, like,
24:12
Speaker 3: an easy entry point.
24:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That was
24:16
Speaker 2: the part that I found, even back then, even as
24:19
Speaker 2: a kid. Like, I was like, this is amazing because
24:21
Speaker 2: where I was at, like, you don't have to go
24:23
Speaker 2: very far outside the city to get pretty rural. So
24:27
Speaker 2: like you would get, and again, because of the appeal
24:30
Speaker 2: and the legacy that it had built up around it,
24:33
Speaker 2: people would still come just out of curiosity. So you
24:35
Speaker 2: would get these like rednecks that would show up and
24:38
Speaker 2: they would be there. And like, sometimes it eventually, like
24:43
Speaker 2: you'd realize the people that were okay with it were
24:46
Speaker 2: okay with it. And they were just there.
24:47
Speaker 3: Yeah.
24:48
Speaker 2: So after a while you had people that were so
24:51
Speaker 2: drastically different in every other aspect of their life. But
24:55
Speaker 2: at midnight on a Saturday night, like everybody came together.
24:58
Speaker 2: Everybody was accepting of each other. Everybody had fun. And like,
25:02
Speaker 2: it was just such a, it just sort of leveled
25:05
Speaker 2: the playing field where like everyone got along in a
25:08
Speaker 2: situation where normally that never happened, you know?
25:11
Speaker 3: It's weird, isn't it? I did, you know, and you
25:13
Speaker 3: could spend all day talking about trying to figure it out.
25:16
Speaker 3: You know, I think the mute music is at least
25:18
Speaker 3: 50% of it. Tim Curry's performance is part of it.
25:22
Speaker 3: Just how wild and fun it is as part of it. Um,
25:27
Speaker 3: But I know, you know, that Trixie says that line
25:29
Speaker 3: in the documentary goes, it was very gay, but I
25:32
Speaker 3: was very much allowed to like it. Somehow Rocky gets
25:36
Speaker 3: a pass when it deals with all these things which,
25:40
Speaker 3: you know, are supposed to be taboo in our culture.
25:45
Speaker 3: And somehow it gets away with it. And I think
25:47
Speaker 3: that it's really down to how could you criticize something
25:51
Speaker 3: that is so much fun? You know, you seem stupid
25:55
Speaker 3: if you do. And I think that's his defense. If
25:59
Speaker 3: Rocky took itself more seriously, I think people would be
26:03
Speaker 3: more up in arms about it. But it doesn't. And
26:06
Speaker 3: so they're not. Yeah.
26:07
Speaker 2: And it just sort of welcomes everyone in. And that's
26:10
Speaker 2: why it's led to this like family vibe that comes
26:14
Speaker 2: with the audience. Every show, no matter when it is,
26:16
Speaker 2: where it is, it's always kind of had that.
26:19
Speaker 3: Yeah.
26:20
Speaker 2: So I do like that you've also added that in,
26:23
Speaker 2: that as much as you do this good job of
26:25
Speaker 2: setting up how it came to be, but then you
26:28
Speaker 2: get into even doing the interviews, you get Jack Black,
26:33
Speaker 2: who was just a kid in the audience. So now
26:36
Speaker 2: he's Jack Black, but he is sort of like this
26:38
Speaker 2: audience perspective type of interview that gets thrown in there too,
26:43
Speaker 2: that he was just a kid being blown away by
26:45
Speaker 2: the whole experience like everybody else in the audience. Yeah.
26:50
Speaker 2: So yeah, I do like that it sort of like
26:52
Speaker 2: balances out all of that and finds a way to
26:55
Speaker 2: work in the audience experience, which again has become maybe
27:00
Speaker 2: bigger than anything else involved in this.
27:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? And everyone has very similar
27:06
Speaker 3: stories about Rocky, about when they first saw it and
27:09
Speaker 3: they can't wait to share it. Sometimes people will recognize
27:14
Speaker 3: me and they'll start to come towards me And part
27:19
Speaker 3: of me will think, oh, they're coming to say hello.
27:20
Speaker 3: But no, they're actually coming to tell me their Rocky
27:23
Speaker 3: story about the first time they saw it. And they
27:27
Speaker 3: want to share that more than anything else. And because
27:30
Speaker 3: that memory is burned onto their brain, much like the
27:33
Speaker 3: first time they had their first kiss or they lost
27:36
Speaker 3: their actual virginity. It's that kind of power that memory
27:40
Speaker 3: has on them.
27:42
Speaker 2: And it's amazing how universal it is because again, I
27:44
Speaker 2: have been at like go to like just regular conventions
27:47
Speaker 2: for like your horror movies or whatever, but you'll find people.
27:50
Speaker 2: And as soon as they realize they're both Rocky people,
27:53
Speaker 2: like it just, there's this connection and it just locks
27:55
Speaker 2: in and like, they've got stories and like it's, but
27:58
Speaker 2: their stories are so shared. It doesn't matter that they're
28:01
Speaker 2: entirely different States, you know, in totally different theaters, totally
28:04
Speaker 2: different cast. Everybody still has the same experience. And that's,
28:08
Speaker 2: That's kind of what, again, by the time you get
28:11
Speaker 2: to the movie, you realize that because it's this mixture
28:14
Speaker 2: of live theater and cinema and participation, it just kind
28:19
Speaker 2: of melds into this totally different art form that hits
28:23
Speaker 2: a weird peak of just entertainment that we hadn't had before.
28:28
Speaker 3: Right. I know. That's my favorite part of the documentary
28:31
Speaker 3: is my dad talks about that. He talks about seeing
28:34
Speaker 3: it at a convention in Long Island for the first
28:37
Speaker 3: time with an audience. and seeing Dory Hartley, the Frankenfurter
28:41
Speaker 3: impersonator at the 8th Street Playhouse, be at the front
28:44
Speaker 3: of the stage during the I'm Going Home moment, and
28:48
Speaker 3: the spotlight was on her, and her silhouette was the
28:51
Speaker 3: same size as Frankenfurter on the screen, and the audience
28:54
Speaker 3: was singing the refrains. It was really important for me
28:59
Speaker 3: to have that moment in the documentary, because I wanted
29:02
Speaker 3: people who aren't aware of the Rocky experience and what
29:05
Speaker 3: it is, especially with the shadow cast, to know that
29:08
Speaker 3: It's much more than just some people goofing off at
29:12
Speaker 3: the front of the stage. It's creating something that's entirely unique. Yeah,
29:18
Speaker 3: I just love that moment.
29:19
Speaker 2: Well, it is something that I've always wondered, and this
29:23
Speaker 2: may be more of a dad question, but you've been
29:25
Speaker 2: around him so much, maybe you know the answer. Where
29:28
Speaker 2: did the line, don't dream it, be it, come from?
29:32
Speaker 3: I think it's from a, there was a lingerie company
29:39
Speaker 3: Frederick's of Holland. Yeah, yeah. I think that's what it was.
29:42
Speaker 3: I think that line was a promotion from Fredericks of Hollywood.
29:46
Speaker 2: Because in the structured movie itself, it almost is sort
29:51
Speaker 2: of out of the blue. Like it almost doesn't fit
29:54
Speaker 2: in the moment. But in the legacy it became, it's
29:58
Speaker 2: the most important thing ever. Like it becomes such a
30:01
Speaker 2: big part of the experience that it's weird to think
30:04
Speaker 2: about it disconnected from what it is now. That like
30:07
Speaker 2: in the original movie, when Frank's just saying that, it's like, well, wait,
30:11
Speaker 2: how does this tie? But then you get, it's like
30:13
Speaker 2: it almost had a legacy before it even knew. Like
30:17
Speaker 2: it was built in before it even got there.
30:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, but I think the thing is my dad
30:23
Speaker 3: has always been able to see things in our culture
30:27
Speaker 3: and pick up on our things in our culture that
30:31
Speaker 3: not everyone misses necessarily, but he's able to highlight what
30:34
Speaker 3: he likes about it. So whether it was fifties B
30:37
Speaker 3: movies or rock and roll songs, or even something like
30:41
Speaker 3: don't dream it, be it. He was able to see
30:43
Speaker 3: that in the, in the, in the, the, the, you know,
30:47
Speaker 3: Frederick's of Hollywood ad and be like, Oh, that, that
30:51
Speaker 3: means a whole lot, you know?
30:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
30:53
Speaker 3: And then, But then at the time, just to stick
30:55
Speaker 3: it into a song and not even really think about it.
30:59
Speaker 3: And then have it culturally land in a way that
31:02
Speaker 3: he wouldn't expect again. So yeah, I mean, it's just
31:06
Speaker 3: his ability to kind of see things in the culture
31:10
Speaker 3: that we're not necessarily focusing on.
31:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess you can sort of pick
31:16
Speaker 2: up on that just... Again, he was.
31:17
Speaker 3: So engaged in pop culture. Yeah, so there's a Fredericks
31:21
Speaker 3: of Hollywood ad. And actually... Funny enough, it says here,
31:25
Speaker 3: don't dream it, live it. So maybe he did actually
31:33
Speaker 3: create it. Don't dream it, be it. Maybe he took
31:38
Speaker 3: that and then made it into something for himself. Interesting.
31:44
Speaker 3: It's very interesting.
31:46
Speaker 2: Just in general, I was wondering, does he still, as
31:50
Speaker 2: the writer of it all, does he still have like,
31:52
Speaker 2: any control over what happens to the whole thing? Like,
31:56
Speaker 2: the fact that we just got, like, a whole new
31:57
Speaker 2: Broadway run out of it. Like, does he sign off
32:00
Speaker 2: at the beginning?
32:01
Speaker 3: No, the stage play he's very much involved with in
32:04
Speaker 3: terms of the Rocky Horror Company. And then, but the movie,
32:08
Speaker 3: not so much. Yeah.
32:11
Speaker 2: Have you seen that new production? The one that just
32:13
Speaker 2: sort of.
32:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. I went to the opening night on Broadway. And, yeah,
32:18
Speaker 3: I had a really nice time. And Sam Pinkleton's a
32:21
Speaker 3: lovely man. And he's, you know, he's brought his own
32:24
Speaker 3: vibe to it. So, yeah, and it's doing really well.
32:27
Speaker 3: I think it's been extended now to the end of February,
32:30
Speaker 3: which is very good news for them.
32:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've just seen bits and pieces of all the
32:35
Speaker 2: following most of the cast online. And, like, they all
32:37
Speaker 2: keep posting stuff. And I'm like, it looks amazing and
32:40
Speaker 2: well done. And it's still, like, connecting with people even
32:44
Speaker 2: in just the play. So it's amazing.
32:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's bizarre. We'll all be dead, and Rocky will
32:53
Speaker 3: still be playing somewhere, to a theater or something. I mean,
32:58
Speaker 3: it's never going away.
33:01
Speaker 2: No, definitely not. And most impressive, the fact that you
33:05
Speaker 2: work in the statue in the movie. So the fact
33:08
Speaker 2: that your dad has a statue is amazing, by the way.
33:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, how these things happen is bizarre. Someone wanted
33:16
Speaker 3: to make Hamilton do something to make it more metropolitan
33:21
Speaker 3: and celebrate what they are, and this seemed like a
33:25
Speaker 3: natural thing for them. And so I'm so glad it
33:28
Speaker 3: all worked out. Actually, the statue is so cool because
33:31
Speaker 3: it was designed by... Weta Workshop, who did all the
33:35
Speaker 3: Lord of the Rings and Avatar movies. So it was
33:38
Speaker 3: very cool that they made it.
33:41
Speaker 2: And again, that's why I think in actuality, it was
33:44
Speaker 2: you that needed to make this because those are the
33:47
Speaker 2: key moments. And I don't think you would have the same.
33:50
Speaker 2: response from your dad if it were somebody else if
33:53
Speaker 2: it were just some guy with a camera that showed
33:55
Speaker 2: up to go shoot footage or even sitting around the
33:57
Speaker 2: house like there's the moments when you sort of cross
34:00
Speaker 2: over into the movie and like you're there talking to
34:02
Speaker 2: him and I don't think he would have those same
34:04
Speaker 2: conversations if it weren't you so I do really like
34:08
Speaker 2: those those connections between you and him in in the.
34:11
Speaker 3: Movie nice yeah people really respond to that I think
34:14
Speaker 3: that probably could have been a it might've been better
34:19
Speaker 3: as a result, but you know, uh, I'll give it
34:23
Speaker 3: like an eight and a half out of 10, the documentary.
34:26
Speaker 3: And I could have probably made it a nine and
34:28
Speaker 3: a half if, you know, if I leaned into that
34:31
Speaker 3: a bit more. So I try to be objective in my, uh,
34:36
Speaker 3: in my critique of it.
34:37
Speaker 2: I think it balances out pretty nicely. I do kind
34:39
Speaker 2: of like, it's nice.
34:41
Speaker 3: It's a lovely movie. And it was, and, and, you know,
34:43
Speaker 3: when we've seen in theaters, uh, you know, when it
34:46
Speaker 3: was released here in the States and throughout the festival circuit,
34:50
Speaker 3: the response has been amazing. You know, people laughing, cheering,
34:53
Speaker 3: crying in it. So I couldn't ask for a better
34:56
Speaker 3: reception to the documentary. And I think only out of
35:01
Speaker 3: all the reviews on Letterboxd, Rotten Tomatoes, and all the
35:05
Speaker 3: press that we've had in the newspapers, I think there's
35:08
Speaker 3: just been one negative review out of all of them.
35:11
Speaker 3: So if someone had said to me, before I started
35:14
Speaker 3: making it, would you be okay with your movie only
35:17
Speaker 3: having one negative review? I would have said absolutely. So yeah,
35:22
Speaker 3: very happy about it.
35:24
Speaker 2: Well, I could, yeah, I could talk about Rocky forever,
35:27
Speaker 2: but I will, I know we, we also in, in the,
35:30
Speaker 2: the format of this, we also have another movie that
35:33
Speaker 2: you've chosen. So I do want to get into that.
35:35
Speaker 2: And I usually will read the breakdown here. So Our
35:38
Speaker 2: unsung cinema feature is Being John Malkovich. The year is 1999,
35:42
Speaker 2: the director is Spike Jonze, and the plot, according to IMDb,
35:47
Speaker 2: a puppeteer discovers a portal that leads literally into the
35:51
Speaker 2: head of movie star John Malkovich. And that's where it
35:55
Speaker 2: comes to an end. So, spoiler alert, I would assume
35:58
Speaker 2: if you're listening to this you've already seen it, but
36:00
Speaker 2: if not, we'll dig into it.
36:02
Speaker 3: Here, so.
36:04
Speaker 2: With that, I guess my first question for you is,
36:07
Speaker 2: what is your history with this movie? And when did
36:10
Speaker 2: you first see it? What was your first impression of it?
36:13
Speaker 3: Well, I saw it when it was released in theaters
36:17
Speaker 3: in 99. I can't remember where I was when I
36:18
Speaker 3: saw it. I was probably in London. I don't have
36:23
Speaker 3: any memory other than that. All I know is that
36:25
Speaker 3: what I loved about it, and what I still love
36:28
Speaker 3: about it, is the way that it's shot. So the cinematography...
36:34
Speaker 3: And the lighting and how naturalistic it felt was and
36:42
Speaker 3: still is amazing because what it does then, it grounds,
36:46
Speaker 3: if you feel like it's reality, when the fantastical stuff
36:51
Speaker 3: starts to happen, you are brought in to that world.
36:56
Speaker 3: And I love making, I love seeing movies that have
37:01
Speaker 3: fantastical elements that feel real then I get transported into
37:06
Speaker 3: that world. And then it's just tremendously funny as well.
37:10
Speaker 3: On top of that, it's absolutely hilarious. Like the, the,
37:14
Speaker 3: the boss, like, so John Cusack's character is a puppeteer
37:19
Speaker 3: and he tries to get a job at this company
37:23
Speaker 3: and he, and at the company, the guy is called,
37:27
Speaker 3: I think it's called Lester. And I think it's, It's
37:32
Speaker 3: not Mary Tyler Moore, but it's someone who's his secretary.
37:35
Speaker 2: Mary Kay Place, I think, is her name?
37:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's got like a.
37:37
Speaker 2: She was in a ton of stuff at that time.
37:39
Speaker 2: I did recognize her.
37:40
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, and she's got this... And she has this
37:43
Speaker 3: hearing disability. So she keeps misinterpreting everything that John Cusack's saying.
37:49
Speaker 3: And then Lester's got this strange, weird, sexual stories that
37:54
Speaker 3: he wants to share with John Cusack. The whole thing
37:57
Speaker 3: is so trippy and out there. And yet, because it's shot...
38:02
Speaker 3: and feels realistic in its lighting and its production design,
38:07
Speaker 3: you're just taken along for the ride. And so, like,
38:10
Speaker 3: it's a real inspiration for me. I wish there were
38:13
Speaker 3: more movies like it that would do that. I wish
38:16
Speaker 3: that more out-there movies would feel more realistic. I think
38:21
Speaker 3: maybe that's coming. There is some of that. You do
38:25
Speaker 3: see some of it in these smaller horror movies sometimes. Yeah.
38:29
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's just, I'm a big, Spike Jonze is
38:32
Speaker 3: probably by far my favorite director. All the movies he's
38:35
Speaker 3: made from, you know, adaptation, Where the Wild Things Are,
38:39
Speaker 3: and Her. You know, he's, yeah, he's a real, like,
38:44
Speaker 3: inspiration as a filmmaker.
38:46
Speaker 2: I was so impressed with the fact that it got
38:51
Speaker 2: as much exposure as it did. Because that's the thing,
38:54
Speaker 2: watching it, I was just like, this is such a
38:57
Speaker 2: weird movie. And I mean that in the best possible way.
38:59
Speaker 2: That's why I was so drawn to it. Now it's
39:01
Speaker 2: why I like it as much as I did. But
39:03
Speaker 2: I mean, almost from the get go, when we get
39:05
Speaker 2: to the seventh and a half floor and we get
39:08
Speaker 2: to like watching the, I mean, everybody looks kind of,
39:11
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not the normal version of John Cusack.
39:13
Speaker 2: It's definitely not the version that we're used to of
39:16
Speaker 2: Cameron Diaz. So like everybody's already sort of this weird
39:19
Speaker 2: disheveled version of themselves and, And then you get to
39:23
Speaker 2: this like almost surreal building that like he goes to
39:27
Speaker 2: and then everyone's talking. weird and like so even from
39:32
Speaker 2: the first like 15-20 minutes before you get to the
39:34
Speaker 2: door and all the craziness that's going to come into
39:37
Speaker 2: it it's already such a weird feel to it that
39:40
Speaker 2: I'm like I'm kind of shocked that it got as
39:44
Speaker 2: wide exposure as it did and it got the response
39:47
Speaker 2: that it did when it came out because a lot
39:48
Speaker 2: of And on the show a lot, I mentioned the
39:51
Speaker 2: regular people, I'm using quotes there, that like, you know,
39:54
Speaker 2: your normal like hardcore movie fans are open to that
39:57
Speaker 2: kind of idea. And they want a movie that challenges them. And,
40:00
Speaker 2: you know, they want to see different things. But a
40:03
Speaker 2: lot of your average moviegoers, like once something starts to
40:06
Speaker 2: get a little too weird, like they're out, like they
40:08
Speaker 2: want nothing to do with it anymore.
40:10
Speaker 3: Well, the thing is, is I think all departments of
40:13
Speaker 3: this movie were firing on all cylinders. And I think that's,
40:17
Speaker 3: If one of them had been slightly below, like the
40:20
Speaker 3: art direction, the writing, the directing, if any of them
40:23
Speaker 3: had been less than top tier, then I think it
40:27
Speaker 3: goes into this weird indie category.
40:32
Speaker 2: There are a lot of those, but again, usually nobody's
40:35
Speaker 2: ever heard of those, where.
40:36
Speaker 3: This got a lot of response. Everyone firing on all cylinders,
40:40
Speaker 3: like Charlie Kaufman at his best. And, you know, Catherine Keener,
40:47
Speaker 3: she plays like this manipulative narcissist, like you just so intense,
40:52
Speaker 3: and so full of herself. I was like, wow, do
40:54
Speaker 3: people like this exist? Like, she's just so... Just so crazy.
40:59
Speaker 3: It's weird.
40:59
Speaker 2: She always has that vibe. Like I like her as
41:02
Speaker 2: an actress, but she always seems like she comes off
41:05
Speaker 2: that way.
41:05
Speaker 3: Well, that's a, that's a, that's a credit to her.
41:08
Speaker 3: Like she really, cause like she's not like that at all.
41:10
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
41:11
Speaker 2: Cause she even said she didn't like this character. Like
41:13
Speaker 2: she didn't, she didn't want to play this because she's
41:16
Speaker 2: so unlikable.
41:17
Speaker 3: I mean, she's a cunt.
41:18
Speaker 2: She's so good at it.
41:21
Speaker 3: She's terrible. But yeah, but again, just so interesting to watch.
41:27
Speaker 3: And it has, by far, the best cameo of any movie,
41:33
Speaker 3: any time, by Charlie Sheen. Like, Charlie Sheen is so
41:38
Speaker 3: amazing in that movie. And what he's doing, so he's,
41:44
Speaker 3: for people who don't know, John Malkovich has had this
41:47
Speaker 3: experience with Cameron Diaz, no, with Catherine Keener's character, like
41:53
Speaker 3: a sex fantasy, well, actual... you know, a sexual intimacy
41:59
Speaker 3: with her. And then as she's, yeah, as she's doing that,
42:02
Speaker 3: she's being actually, uh, Cameron Diaz characters inside John Malkovich
42:06
Speaker 3: at the time and controlling his, um, I know, I
42:09
Speaker 3: think it's John Cusack is inside controlling, uh, Malkovich and
42:13
Speaker 3: freaking him out. So he calls Charlie Sheen over to
42:16
Speaker 3: have a conversation with him because he's so freaked out.
42:19
Speaker 3: And Charlie Sheen is sitting like all slumped in an armchair,
42:22
Speaker 3: like trying to eat a burrito in tinfoil. So he's not,
42:26
Speaker 3: he's listening to him, but he's not really listening to him.
42:28
Speaker 3: And he's, and then John Malkovich says, yeah, he, she, she,
42:32
Speaker 3: I like, she made like this voice came out of
42:34
Speaker 3: it and she made me call her Lottie. And he's like,
42:37
Speaker 3: she made you call her Lottie. That is hot, Johnny boy.
42:41
Speaker 3: You know, let me know. Let me know when you're
42:47
Speaker 3: done with her. I mean, it's just it's so good.
42:50
Speaker 3: The fact that it's already funny that Charlie Sheen and
42:53
Speaker 3: John Malkovich are friends. Right. And then and then to
42:57
Speaker 3: have him play it the way he does is just
43:01
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's genius.
43:02
Speaker 2: That was the part I wanted to check into. Like, again,
43:06
Speaker 2: because I was just like, as it happened, I was like,
43:07
Speaker 2: this is amazing. But I was like, what a weird pairing.
43:11
Speaker 2: I was like, those two are friends?
43:14
Speaker 3: But that's the humor of Spike Jonze and Charlie Kaufman.
43:18
Speaker 3: They're just kind of like, you know, they think outside
43:23
Speaker 3: the box.
43:23
Speaker 2: But the even weirder part is, they weren't. Like, in
43:27
Speaker 2: the script, it was originally supposed to be Kevin Bacon.
43:30
Speaker 2: And again, I think just randomly, I think Charlie just
43:33
Speaker 2: wrote it that way. And like he, Kevin Bacon, like
43:35
Speaker 2: didn't want to do it or had scheduling issues or whatever.
43:38
Speaker 2: And so then it came down to like, well, who
43:40
Speaker 2: can we get? And John Malkovich was the one that
43:42
Speaker 2: suggested Charlie. But he'd never met him before. He just
43:48
Speaker 2: knew he's like, he's just, I watched him describe it.
43:50
Speaker 2: He's like, well, I mean, I knew if, if anybody's
43:53
Speaker 2: going to, and I feel like that's it because Charlie
43:55
Speaker 2: up to that point had already lived the craziest life ever.
43:59
Speaker 2: So if anybody's going to listen to you talk about
44:01
Speaker 2: a coven of witches that are taking over your body
44:04
Speaker 2: and having sex with you and just shrug it off
44:06
Speaker 2: like it's no big deal, it's Charlie Sheen.
44:11
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just sometimes where the pairings in
44:14
Speaker 3: life just get so perfect. And that is one of
44:17
Speaker 3: them for sure.
44:18
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that was John Malkovich's doing. And yeah, genius
44:22
Speaker 2: on all fronts there. I was not prepared for how
44:25
Speaker 2: much fun that was. And even funnier knowing they aren't
44:28
Speaker 2: actually friends.
44:30
Speaker 3: And then just and then and then, you know, for
44:32
Speaker 3: all the madness and then it just nails the ending
44:34
Speaker 3: as well. For those that, you know, again, spoiler alert
44:38
Speaker 3: and you know. John Cusack ends up trapped in the
44:44
Speaker 3: daughter's mind, unable to control her, unable to do anything,
44:47
Speaker 3: but look out through her eyes as the daughter of
44:51
Speaker 3: Cameron Diaz and Catherine Keener. So it becomes kind of weird.
44:57
Speaker 3: The puppeteer has now become an observer of life and
45:01
Speaker 3: not controlling it at all. It's so... It works on
45:05
Speaker 3: so many levels. He's just the genius of Charlie Kaufman.
45:09
Speaker 3: Those two screenplays, being John Malkovich in Adaptation, are some
45:15
Speaker 3: of the two of the best screenplays ever written. The
45:18
Speaker 3: way that they all weave together all of these points
45:21
Speaker 3: and they all come out in a resolution that's kind
45:23
Speaker 3: of satisfying and unexpected. It's genius. Absolute genius.
45:28
Speaker 2: The relationship part is the thing I think I really
45:31
Speaker 2: didn't see coming. Like, again, I knew sort of the
45:33
Speaker 2: basic premise of like, you know, the going into his
45:36
Speaker 2: head part. But it takes that weird turn where it's like,
45:40
Speaker 2: not only is this person seeing what's going on in
45:44
Speaker 2: John Malkovich's head, but then starts to experience it for themselves.
45:48
Speaker 2: And then when it's Lottie. she realizes like she has
45:52
Speaker 2: this sort of sexual awakening that like, she's like, not
45:55
Speaker 2: only am I into this person, but like this person
45:59
Speaker 2: through John Malkovich is how I'm experiencing this. And then
46:04
Speaker 2: like gender aside, like she didn't care. Like this is
46:06
Speaker 2: the person I want to be with, even though she's
46:08
Speaker 2: married and has a whole life, like she didn't care.
46:10
Speaker 2: It like, it awakened this whole thing in her. So
46:14
Speaker 2: then the whole rest of the movie becomes this, how
46:16
Speaker 2: do we deal with this? Because Catherine Keener is also
46:19
Speaker 2: just kind of a jerk and won't experience it in
46:21
Speaker 2: the real world. She will only experience it through John Malkovich.
46:25
Speaker 2: So every time they do something, she has to go
46:28
Speaker 2: hook up with John Malkovich.
46:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's bizarre. I think it's what's interesting about that.
46:35
Speaker 3: And I think this is... I'm kind of just thinking
46:39
Speaker 3: off the top of my head here, but I think
46:41
Speaker 3: one of the greatest things and one of the most
46:44
Speaker 3: powerful things in love is... being seen right and so
46:52
Speaker 3: sometimes you know obviously there's a physical attraction to people
46:55
Speaker 3: and obviously there's like things that you both have connect
46:59
Speaker 3: well when you're when you're in love with someone you
47:01
Speaker 3: have connection connecting points where you're into the same things
47:05
Speaker 3: you see the world the same way there's that that
47:08
Speaker 3: kind of thing that goes on but when you're truly
47:10
Speaker 3: seen by someone else uh you know warts and all
47:15
Speaker 3: that can be like the most powerful thing in the world.
47:19
Speaker 3: And I think that that's what was happening in being
47:22
Speaker 3: John Malkovich. These characters were being seen, that separation between
47:28
Speaker 3: the person and the mind and being seen in that way.
47:33
Speaker 3: I think it really says a lot of things without
47:37
Speaker 3: saying it as well. And I think if you're watching
47:41
Speaker 3: a movie and you're getting things... emotional things are coming
47:46
Speaker 3: through to you but you can't pinpoint them that's when
47:49
Speaker 3: you have a winner yeah uh you know it it's
47:52
Speaker 3: you know if it's like oh this main character dies
47:55
Speaker 3: at the end that's why i'm feeling sad okay great
47:59
Speaker 3: but feeling conflicted about why you're feeling a certain way
48:03
Speaker 3: or questioning why you're feeling a certain way when you
48:06
Speaker 3: leave the movie theater and then have the movie stick
48:08
Speaker 3: with you over the next few days and have it
48:10
Speaker 3: not be black and white that's, you're really onto something then.
48:14
Speaker 3: And I think he really does that with being Joe Malkovich.
48:18
Speaker 2: That one, yeah. It definitely has an interesting balance with the,
48:21
Speaker 2: because you don't really like John Cusack's character from the get-go. Like,
48:25
Speaker 2: especially when he immediately just wants to start cheating on
48:28
Speaker 2: his wife. Like, that's the first thing we see out
48:31
Speaker 2: of him.
48:31
Speaker 3: They're all weak. All of the characters are weak, you know?
48:34
Speaker 3: And I think that that's something about, again, about the
48:37
Speaker 3: human condition. Like, sometimes we don't, realize how weak we
48:43
Speaker 3: all are you know and and so to show characters
48:48
Speaker 3: that are weak that are manipulative that are narcissistic yes
48:53
Speaker 3: we judge them to a certain degree but also they're
48:55
Speaker 3: living their lives in this crazy situation it's really interesting
48:59
Speaker 3: you know flawed characters are are very interesting and and
49:06
Speaker 3: because that's because we all are flawed in our own
49:09
Speaker 3: ways so Seeing them on screen like that was really
49:13
Speaker 3: like a revelation for me, seeing these very flawed characters.
49:17
Speaker 2: They're all kind of a mess at the beginning there.
49:19
Speaker 2: And you realize that is what they're trying to do.
49:23
Speaker 2: This is the other half of it that's really interesting,
49:26
Speaker 2: especially when it's taking place. Because it's not about celebrity exactly.
49:34
Speaker 2: It's about the perception of celebrity. And what we... It's not,
49:38
Speaker 2: you know, is this really what John Malkovich is like?
49:40
Speaker 2: It's what do we think John Malkovich is like? And
49:43
Speaker 2: the life that he has is obviously better than mine
49:46
Speaker 2: because I'm a mess. Like, we've already established everybody else
49:48
Speaker 2: is a big flawed mess. So, like, obviously I want
49:51
Speaker 2: to take over John Malkovich's life because it's got to
49:54
Speaker 2: be better than mine. He's a fabulous celebrity.
49:56
Speaker 3: Right, right, right.
49:58
Speaker 2: So the fact that, like, this is taking place in 1999.
50:01
Speaker 2: So this is all before... anything really kicked into the
50:06
Speaker 2: mess that it is now as far as being a celebrity, really.
50:09
Speaker 2: Like other than your standard, like tabloid type of stuff
50:13
Speaker 2: and some paparazzi, but it's not like everyone was carrying
50:17
Speaker 2: a camera around at any given moment, like they are
50:19
Speaker 2: now that they're being hit up with a thousand photos
50:22
Speaker 2: a day. Oh, can we take a picture? Like, you know,
50:24
Speaker 2: you didn't have that unless they're toting around a 35
50:27
Speaker 2: millimeter camera with them back in the day versus now
50:30
Speaker 2: everybody has one. And then like the social media of
50:34
Speaker 2: it all that like didn't exist. I was like, I
50:37
Speaker 2: was like, this was pre Facebook. This was definitely, I mean, Twitter,
50:40
Speaker 2: I feel like took it up to a different level
50:42
Speaker 2: of that constant updating thing that became, it just took
50:47
Speaker 2: over the internet at that point. And celebrities were on that.
50:50
Speaker 3: It's quite interesting because, you know, that's, you know, 99
50:53
Speaker 3: is like, like I, what was I doing with the internet?
50:57
Speaker 3: I think I was in like doing some instant messaging,
51:00
Speaker 3: maybe some email and, And that was about it, really.
51:03
Speaker 3: Message boards.
51:05
Speaker 2: You had some fun message boards. That was about as
51:07
Speaker 2: interactive as you got.
51:08
Speaker 3: So that was about it. So it's an interesting time that,
51:10
Speaker 3: you know, that you point out that it was way,
51:14
Speaker 3: way before all of this stuff. And they were able
51:16
Speaker 3: to comment on all this stuff, you know, prior to
51:20
Speaker 3: the internet. It's very, very interesting.
51:22
Speaker 2: Because does this movie even work trying to make it now?
51:26
Speaker 3: Probably not. Yeah, probably not.
51:28
Speaker 2: And the celebrity isn't what it used to be. Like,
51:31
Speaker 2: you know, this had to be like an actual talented,
51:34
Speaker 2: famous actor versus now just anybody with an online account
51:38
Speaker 2: can be a celebrity, kind of.
51:40
Speaker 3: Not in my book. Right, right, right.
51:42
Speaker 2: But they are treated like it by certain people.
51:45
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, I agree.
51:48
Speaker 2: And that's what was kind of weird with this too,
51:49
Speaker 2: is you get to those, like the customers that were
51:52
Speaker 2: coming to this company that they set up, they didn't
51:54
Speaker 2: even seem like they cared about John Malkovich. Like it
51:58
Speaker 2: wasn't about him specifically. They weren't fans of him as
52:01
Speaker 2: much as it was just out of curiosity. It was
52:03
Speaker 2: just like.
52:04
Speaker 3: They wanted to escape. Yeah. They wanted to escape their
52:06
Speaker 3: own lives.
52:07
Speaker 2: Experience someone else's life, whoever it is. Oh, John Malkovich. Sure.
52:11
Speaker 2: Why not?
52:11
Speaker 3: Like.
52:12
Speaker 2: Yeah.
52:12
Speaker 3: Everyone wants to be someone else.
52:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
52:14
Speaker 3: Someone they're not.
52:15
Speaker 2: I think that was really interesting too, that they didn't,
52:18
Speaker 2: they didn't seem like they cared who it was. It
52:20
Speaker 2: was just get out of my head and into someone
52:23
Speaker 2: else's for 15 minutes.
52:25
Speaker 3: Yeah.
52:26
Speaker 2: It does seem flawed that you get dumped on the
52:28
Speaker 2: Jersey turnpike though. I don't, I don't know how they
52:30
Speaker 2: dealt with that in the professional end of this deal.
52:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. It's a lot of driving.
52:37
Speaker 2: Cause did they go pick them up every time? Or
52:39
Speaker 2: is it like fair warning? Don't get into it. It's good.
52:45
Speaker 2: So that was, yeah, that's kind of what I'm wondering
52:48
Speaker 2: by the end of this is like, what do we
52:51
Speaker 2: take from this? Like, what do you think is like
52:53
Speaker 2: the actual, because it definitely is a deep movie in
52:56
Speaker 2: its own way, whether or not he pins things down
52:59
Speaker 2: for you. But like overall, I guess, what are we
53:01
Speaker 2: supposed to take from all of this?
53:04
Speaker 3: I don't know if I could ever sum it up.
53:06
Speaker 3: And I think we probably have touched on some of
53:10
Speaker 3: the angles. And I think that, you know, Isn't that
53:13
Speaker 3: wonderful to have it not all be... I mean, it
53:16
Speaker 3: is wrapped up. The thing is, what's fascinating about it,
53:19
Speaker 3: it is wrapped up in a tight bow. We're left
53:22
Speaker 3: under no apprehension about what's happened, we're told. And yet still,
53:27
Speaker 3: there's so many questions around it. And you feel... And
53:31
Speaker 3: it's this... Every time the movie finishes, because you've been
53:34
Speaker 3: taken on such a ride, and you're kind of rooting
53:37
Speaker 3: for this, kind of rooting for that, and then it
53:39
Speaker 3: kind of just leaves you with this very melancholic, sad
53:44
Speaker 3: kind of, um, and maybe even painful, really painful. Cause you,
53:48
Speaker 3: you know, he's trapped. John Cusack is trapped forever for him. Yeah.
53:52
Speaker 2: It's like a hell of his own making essentially.
53:55
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's like a nightmare. Right. So I think it's, it's,
53:58
Speaker 3: it's almost like a, it's almost like a fairy tale.
54:02
Speaker 3: That's almost like a, you know, be careful what you
54:04
Speaker 3: wish for scenario or, you know? Um, and so, yeah, it's,
54:10
Speaker 3: it's a, There's movies that I say, when you finish
54:16
Speaker 3: watching them, you feel like you've just eaten a full meal.
54:19
Speaker 3: And that's one of them. Another one like that is
54:23
Speaker 3: Miller's Crossing by the Coen brothers. Where you're just like,
54:28
Speaker 3: oh my god, I've just eaten a big roast dinner.
54:31
Speaker 3: I feel so satisfied now. And being Joe Malkovich is
54:36
Speaker 3: definitely like that for me. Definitely.
54:38
Speaker 2: I think in looking at the... the behind the scenes stuff.
54:42
Speaker 2: I think the closest we got to an answer was
54:44
Speaker 2: from John Malkovich and his takeaway was just be who
54:48
Speaker 2: you are.
54:50
Speaker 3: Right.
54:51
Speaker 2: Which is, you know, when you are John Malkovich, I
54:53
Speaker 2: guess you can say that. Right. Yeah.
54:54
Speaker 3: Well, I guess, you know, it's a, it's a, you know,
54:57
Speaker 3: it's a, what do they call those? It's a, it's
55:00
Speaker 3: like a, you know.
55:01
Speaker 2: A lesson learned, you know.
55:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, because, you know, if you're going to keep trying
55:05
Speaker 3: to be someone else, someone you're not, or control someone else,
55:10
Speaker 3: it's not the right path to go down.
55:12
Speaker 2: But it is, yeah, it is almost like a fairy
55:15
Speaker 2: tale version of, like, because John Cusack's character becomes full-on evil. Like,
55:20
Speaker 2: he takes his wife at gunpoint and keeps her hostage.
55:24
Speaker 2: He then, like, hijacks this man's life for, like, eight
55:27
Speaker 2: years or whatever. Like, he takes over his entire life
55:30
Speaker 2: and career.
55:31
Speaker 3: Yeah.
55:32
Speaker 2: And, like, so he's not even questionably a good person anymore.
55:35
Speaker 2: So by the end, who gets punished? Like, it's just him. Like,
55:40
Speaker 2: the old people kind of get to go live and
55:41
Speaker 2: go to their next level. We actually, the only good
55:44
Speaker 2: thing is our couple ends up together. And, like, Catherine
55:47
Speaker 2: Keener kind of is not a jerk anymore and decides
55:49
Speaker 2: to be a good parent with Cameron. So that's the
55:53
Speaker 2: happy end of it. And then the one person that
55:55
Speaker 2: was truly bad gets punished. And, like, that's, it is
55:59
Speaker 2: very fairytale-like to some extent.
56:01
Speaker 3: It is absolutely a wonderful movie, and I just love
56:06
Speaker 3: how the world feels so realistic. Yeah.
56:09
Speaker 2: While also being crazy and surreal.
56:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
56:13
Speaker 2: But in the middle of, yeah, in the middle of
56:15
Speaker 2: the Jersey Turnpike sometimes, you know? It's like it's still
56:17
Speaker 2: immersed in the reality while surreal, crazy things are also happening.
56:23
Speaker 3: It's my dream combination when I watch things.
56:27
Speaker 2: Well, that gives you something to shoot for.
56:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
56:33
Speaker 2: But yeah, as far as the moving forward, you said
56:37
Speaker 2: you've got stuff that you're working on. So if nothing else,
56:40
Speaker 2: if nothing's, you know, set that you can discuss yet,
56:43
Speaker 2: is there a good way for people to find out?
56:46
Speaker 2: Is there, you know, online? Do you want people to
56:47
Speaker 2: follow you and kind of keep up with what's coming out?
56:50
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you can just follow my Instagram, Linus.O'Brien,
56:55
Speaker 3: if you want to send people that way.
56:58
Speaker 2: Because we've learned nothing from John Malkovich that, yes, we
57:01
Speaker 2: have to go with social media. Otherwise, people will climb
57:04
Speaker 2: inside your head.
57:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, you know, I
57:08
Speaker 3: was never really into social media that much. But out
57:12
Speaker 3: of necessity to help promote the documentary, I've become engaged
57:17
Speaker 3: with it. It's useful. And it's been overall a pleasant experience.
57:21
Speaker 3: It is a time suck. And that's on me. I
57:25
Speaker 3: could make it not a time suck. I could put
57:26
Speaker 3: my phone down. But like everyone else, I'm always on
57:30
Speaker 3: my phone. So it's not great that I have another
57:34
Speaker 3: big reason to be on it. But it's been nice
57:37
Speaker 3: engaging with the fans. And listen, they couldn't have been nicer.
57:40
Speaker 3: Every day I get 10, 20 messages telling me how
57:44
Speaker 3: much they love my father's work and how it changed
57:46
Speaker 3: their lives. So I cannot complain about that.
57:49
Speaker 2: They're not wrong. I mean, he did an impressive thing.
57:53
Speaker 2: And overall, he's been, yeah, several other. I could go
57:57
Speaker 2: into all his other. He's got some amazing performances, too.
58:02
Speaker 3: Yeah. I always felt like whenever I watched him in things,
58:05
Speaker 3: he would always elevate the work, which was really nice
58:10
Speaker 3: to see.
58:10
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. Well, as far as this one, where do
58:14
Speaker 2: you tell people when they want to see Strange Journey?
58:17
Speaker 2: What's the best option, or is there a best option,
58:20
Speaker 2: or just go search for it?
58:21
Speaker 3: I mean, in the U.S., it's on most platforms now.
58:24
Speaker 3: I think it's on Apple, Amazon, Fandango, YouTube. Yeah, so
58:31
Speaker 3: it's everywhere in the U.S., and it's also on Blu-ray
58:35
Speaker 3: through Amazon, and in the U.K., I think it's on
58:38
Speaker 3: Sky Arts, the channel, but also available to stream and
58:42
Speaker 3: purchase on on Amazon and Apple as well. So the
58:46
Speaker 3: other countries which are still trying to figure out some
58:49
Speaker 3: of that isn't on us on SBS in Australia. But,
58:53
Speaker 3: you know, it's a little haphazard. So we're still still
58:57
Speaker 3: promoting it and getting it out into the world.
59:00
Speaker 2: Definitely seek it out. I would assume if you are
59:03
Speaker 2: a Rocky Horror fan, you would want to see it.
59:05
Speaker 2: But I feel like, again, I think it does a
59:07
Speaker 2: nice job encapsulating the whole journey that even if you weren't,
59:11
Speaker 2: like I'm trying to imagine somebody who sees this first
59:15
Speaker 2: and is then like, oh, I guess I need to
59:16
Speaker 2: watch this movie. But I think it works on its own.
59:20
Speaker 2: It's just telling this story very well.
59:23
Speaker 3: That was the idea. I wanted people who'd never seen
59:26
Speaker 3: Rocky before to have a better understanding of what it
59:28
Speaker 3: was like and for people who'd love Rocky and wanted
59:31
Speaker 3: them to feel like they'd been seen and they were
59:34
Speaker 3: up on the screen, especially with the shadow cars. Yeah, definitely.
59:39
Speaker 2: Well, I think it does a good job on all
59:41
Speaker 2: of that. So yeah, Strange Journey, the story of Rocky Horror.
59:44
Speaker 2: Go seek it out and definitely check it out. It's
59:47
Speaker 2: very well done.
59:48
Speaker 3: Thanks, Brian. All right.
59:50
Speaker 2: Well, otherwise, thanks for talking with us.
59:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, lovely to chat to you, Brian.
59:54
Speaker 2: Otherwise, that's how it does it. We will return next time.
59:56
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This episode is a production of Movie Meltdown,
1:00:08
Speaker 2: produced and edited by the Oddity Studios, with music written
1:00:12
Speaker 2: and performed by Andrea Davidson. For more on how to
1:00:15
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