Latest / GARAGE TO STADIUMS Music History Podcast / The Story of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young: the first supergroup of the rock era
Transcript
- Dave Anthony 0:00 Hi there. I'm Dave Anthony, and this is the garage to stadiums podcast rated as one of the top 5% of podcasts globally. On each episode, we tell you the story of how one of our music legends rose from obscurity to fame and play some of the songs that marked that journey. Welcome to garage, to stadiums. Today's episode is the story of Crosby Stills Nash and Young a band made up of four remarkable musicians, each with their own claim to fame before they ever played a note together. When they joined forces, they became what many consider the first true American supergroup. They came from different backgrounds, different bands and sometimes different planets. Emotionally offstage, they were known for clashing eagles, wild lifestyles and breakups that became as legendary as their music. But in the studio, something magical happened. Their voices blended into harmonies that defined a generation and still echo through modern music. Crosby Stills and Nash, later joined by Neil Young, went on to sell over 30 million albums, leaving an indelible mark on the landscape of American rock. Joining us today to unravel the full story is David Brown, author of Crosby Stills, Nash and Young, the wild, definitive saga of rock's greatest super group. David is a senior writer at Rolling Stone and a former music critic at Entertainment Weekly. He's profiled legends like Bob Dylan, The Grateful Dead and Sonic Youth, and he's here to help us dig into the music, the mayhem and the legacy of CSNY. Well, welcome to garage, to stadiums, David. David Brown 1:41 Dave, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Dave Anthony 1:47 Excellent. I want to put a word out to anyone in the audience who has connections to Netflix, Disney or Apple, any of those, because David's book on CSNY, Crosby Stills, Nash and Young is a ready made mini series of soap opera, levels of interpersonal conflicts, addictions and much more debauchery that could be fuel for a great program. David Brown 2:18 I couldn't agree more, there could be a great streaming series, either as a documentary or as a dramatized story, perhaps. But Dave Anthony 2:30 yeah, it's one of the things that probably pulled me into it from the beginning. That unbelievable. What? Why did you choose saga in rock history? I think, yeah, why did you choose Crosby Stills, Nash and Young and as the subject, David Brown 2:44 I think it all kind of goes back to them being one of the first bands I ever got into when I discovered, you know, music as a kid, you know, started buying records and listening to FM radio when I was about 13. And, you know, it was still kind of their early heyday, and I just got kind of swept right up into their into those early records, and the whole the sort of mythic aura about them which even existed back then, that there were these four very different men Who wrote and sang each songs in a very distinct way, and, and, and, you know, the way they loomed over the culture there in the 70s. Yeah, yeah. It kind of instantly pulled me in, as long as the as well as was the music itself and how me get sounded. Dave Anthony 3:38 That's a great point. It's not your typical garage to stadium story where people grind it out in the garage for years and try to figure out how to make it these guys came from successful acts and were in their own right. Each individual was premier talent. David Brown 3:52 Yes, it was the probably now forgotten term of the Suba group. I don't know how many people know that term anymore. Dave Anthony 4:03 What? Let's talk about a little bit about their backgrounds, maybe even before they were famous in their respective bands. What? What? Where did these guys mean? They're all have such different backgrounds. Can you talk a little bit about David Brown 4:17 that they really are? It's, it's, it's almost hard to imagine three or sometimes four guys from such different musical and cultural backgrounds being in the same band together. You know, you had, you know, Graham Nash growing up in the kind of blue collar suburb of Manchester, England. And, you know, with a father who had was sent to jail for, you know, alleged theft for a while, and with his and he worked in the metals industry, and, you know, very kind of gritty exist, existence and upbringing. Contrast that with David Crosby growing. Up in, like the La Santa Barbara area, the son of a movie cinematographer who got awards for, most notably for working on high noon at Dairy school, Western and Crosby going to, you know, it's like some like, private schools and wanting to be an actor early on. And then you have Steven stills, the son of of kind of a father who did all sorts of various businesses and some kind of mysterious and some in construction and moving the family from Texas to Florida to Louisiana to Costa Rica and again, and him, and you know, Nash, kind of growing up with early rock and roll, loving the Everly Brothers and 50s rock. Crosby, growing up not really interested in that music at all, and loving jazz and classical. Yeah, stills growing up with rock and roll, but also like blues and and Latin music, which you know, permeated his thing. Neil, of course, growing up in Canada, in a completely different culture as well, all of them with parental issues, one of the things that ties them, well, many of us do. It's not that unusual. But you know, with stills and young have very dominating kind of mothers. You know, Crosby having a very distant relationship with his parents, especially his father, Nash, growing up, the father wasn't around much because of his his legal issues and things. But anyway, yeah, they, they, they were, you know, they were four very different guys from the beginning, before they were in a band, how Dave Anthony 6:45 did they come together? Like, let's talk about that, because there's even conflicting. I mean, you interviewed David Crosby and Graham Nash for your book directly. Was there? I guess there was some discrepancy from what I read on them agreeing even how they came together. David Brown 7:02 Yeah, to this day. Well, Crosby's not with us anymore, but even before we passed, they could never quite agree on whether they first sang together at Joni Mitchell's house or Mama Cass Elliot's house. For the first time. You know, stills insisting it was at MAMA Cass's because he couldn't possibly, he would have been too intimidated to to sing one of his songs to Joni Mitchell. And even, even in 1968 when Joni was not, you know, like a household name superstar, the other guy saying absolutely wrong. It was mama Cass's house. So, you know, it's kind of an agree, even agree at the beginning, like where they first sang together. Actually, I think from my research, they actually all sang together in an even earlier instance, but for when, when Graham Nash was in LA with the Hollies, and they were hanging out with him. But you know, it was, I mean, I think the roots of them coming together, there are lots of interactions early on. You know, Steven stills was in Buffalo Springfield, of course, Unknown Speaker 8:12 children watch that sound. Of David Brown 8:19 course, David Crosby was in the birds. David Brown 8:33 Graham Nash was in the Hollies. Unknown Speaker 8:39 Reshard, say she's there, I David Brown 8:46 say. And you know, by 1968 when CSN really first came together, each guy was somehow disconnected from that band, or in one way or another, they were all kind of a little bit at loose ends. Buffalo Springfield had broken up. David Crosby had been kicked out of the birds for being kind of a troublemaker, which was the path of his whole life and career. Nash was still in the Hollies, but was not happy with the way that their music was going he felt it was, you know, he wanted to be more kind of psychedelic and upbeat, and not be up to date, I should say, and not just be like a top 40 pop band, right? And, and, you know, it was interesting when I talked to Nash and I said, Well, yeah, he's he, he talked about growing up, not feeling cool, being, being this sort of, you know, blue collar kid outside of Manchester, and having this accent, and having the feeling like the kids in London looked down on him and never felt cool. Music made him feel cool, you know, playing, you know, with especially, you know, like young women watching him and getting all excited. They're watching the Hollies. But then Hollies weren't to him cool after a while, you know, they were, you know, more interested in, you know, they went along with wearing Paisley clothes, but their hearts weren't into it. Nash's heart was into, I think Nash really wanted to be liked, and he wanted to feel cool. Cool. And he meets David Crosby in LA when the Hollies are there. And David Crosby in 1960 you know, six and seven was the embodiment of LA, cool. Yeah, you know, he was in the birds, but he was like the rebel guy. He wore these capes and these hats. He had the best weed. You know, he was Mr. He had the he had the mustache, the whole look, you know, he was sort of Mr. Mr. Counterculture, yeah. And that instantly, I think, Drew Nash into him, as well as the possibility of singing together in their voices intertwining. But, you know, it was kind of all about Nash also seeking some kind of a validation and that and that early bond, you know, created between them Dave Anthony 11:06 that's really interesting. So the cool kids, the rebels, kind of giving Graham, the Nash the the validation that he could be cool or he could join the cool kids kind of thing. Interesting. David Brown 11:17 Exactly, exactly. Don't underestimate the cool lunch table aspect of life. That's Dave Anthony 11:24 right. So the the the 1969 album that they finally do, come together around the Crosby Stills Nash, first album called that Crosby Stills Nash, sweet, Judy, blue eyes. It's Unknown Speaker 11:36 getting to the point Speaker 1 11:42 any around Marrakesh Express Unknown Speaker 11:53 wooden ships, Dave Anthony 11:59 Woody ships. Dave Anthony 12:13 Do you recall, or Were there moments in the book where people talked about the reception of that book, like, what was the reception, even by your own magazine, probably Rolling Stone. David Brown 12:24 Yeah, there were, well, I think there were a lot of expectations for it, actually, because the Hollies, the Springfield and the birds, and especially the birds and Springfield had had a sort of hip cache, but I think at the same time, there was, just to get back to what you said earlier. This is not a band that grounded out in their in clubs and garages. They did with with the Hollies and the birds in Springfield. Yeah, they paid their dues that way. But the reception, I mean, it's funny. I think the Robert Chris gallon, the Village Voice kind of panned it. But, I mean, I think, you know, the whole New York versus la culture wars thing was alive even then. But I think just from the standpoint of of their musician friends, certainly, certainly were kind of kind of astounded by it. You know, they would proudly. Once they finished making that record, they would take test pressings around and play it for their musician friends in LA and there really wasn't anything that sounded like that. It did. That record didn't sound like any of the groups they had been in before. And there really wasn't, you know, sweet, Judy blue eyes, you know, almost seven minutes long, a suite of different three different songs merged together. David Brown 13:56 Nobody quite heard singing like that before, right? Yeah, the yeah, there's been much harmony singing in music before, but, but that that had been, that was their sound was different than the Beach Boys or the four seasons. It was not quite as vacuum sealed or something as as a four seasons. It was a little looser. You could hear each guy's voices, but it was a very unique blend and, and you say the songs, I mean, it was hard to deny hearing, you know, Hearing, helplessly, hoping, David Brown 14:40 a long time gone, or wooden ships, or, you know, so many songs on their record. So it was, it was seen as a really super unique, special project. Right from the start, Speaker 2 14:53 you're listening to garage to stadiums with host Dave Anthony. Dave Anthony 14:59 You. Painted a picture in the book of how, within seconds, almost they knew they had something. The harmonies kind of clicked, and they were kind of blowing themselves away with the sound like that they could get immediately. And then there's not many groups, I guess that would say my first or second concert was in front of 500,000 people at Woodstock. Yeah, Speaker 3 15:20 hey, man, I just gotta say that you people have gotta be the strongest bunch of people I ever saw. Three days, man, three days. We just love you. It's getting to the point where I'm not fine anymore. I Unknown Speaker 15:43 hard anymore, David Brown 15:45 yeah, yeah, kind of crazy when you think about it. I mean, thankfully, they all had experience touring, you know, and playing live with their other bands. Dave Anthony 15:54 That's interesting story. The what, why did Neil? I mean, Neil had joined them for the Woodstock appearance. One of David Brown 16:02 the things I was sort of reminded of in the book. Now we look at Neil as this a Lister, and this man, you know, unto himself, and he's obviously been kind of super successful, you know, as a solo artist for decades. So, you know, you look back and think, Well, why? Why would he join them? Why would he need them at that point? And we kind of forget that, you know, after Buffalo Springfield broke up and he and stills are both, you know, figuring out what happened next deal made, you know, two albums before he joined CSN, the first one called Neil Young with the low and error et cetera. Then he had just finished. Everybody knows this is nowhere, which came out with Crazy Horse. David Brown 17:01 Those are both great records, and they are songs and they're like down by the river that we now consider standards. David Brown 17:18 Those records were not hits, they were not commercially successful records at the time, especially the first one. So, you know when, when? And whereas the cars, weasels, Nash record was out of the box, you know, a hit. So the dynamic was very different at the time, and him coming together was, you know, partly business, partly brotherhood. You know, Crosby sells. Nash wanted a tour. They needed another musician on stage with them to kind of boost their sound. They had a rhythm section, but they felt like they needed another instrumentalist. They cast about for various people. Hilarious stories of them trying to came in Stevie Wynwood to join the band, etc. And then, you know, it was the head of the regular company, Ahmed Erdogan, who said, What about Neil? And, you know, stills was hesitant, because they he and Neil had butted heads in Buffalo Springfield. But Ahmed Erdogan loved Buffalo Springfield, and he was so upset when that group broke up, the idea of Neil being and still is being together again, was very exciting to him, but also from Neil's point of view, joining that band made him almost an instant household name, in a way that his solo records had not. So it was a very savvy decision. It served both of their needs. For for Neil to join the band, it sort of boosted him in in the in the marketplace, so to speak, if we can use such a crass term, and it and it bolstered their live shows. So it was, it was a mutually advantageous merger at the time. Yeah, I don't think anybody, I don't think anybody saw what it would lead to almost immediately afterwards, but at least at that moment, it kind of made sense. That's Dave Anthony 19:10 interesting that you we talk about Neil. He's his own man. He does his own thing. But at the end of the day, what you've eliminated there is he knew that being part of this group almost counter to what he normally is like. He stays under the radar and is Mr. Cool. He saw that this was the opportunity to get his name out there. So that's interesting dichotomy. David Brown 19:32 Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I'm saying he was a cold blooded careerist. I don't think Neil's ever been, but he's, he's a smart guy, and, and, and, you know, I do think that he and stills did for all of their, you know, difficulties between them that that came up stills being a careerist in Buffalo Springfield, being so frustrated when Neil would be in and out of the band and disrupting things. They did love playing. Playing together. And they, you know, they still do, you know, when there's occasions they love each other's guitar playing, they have very different guitar playing styles. And they, they, you know, there's no one quite like the other guy to play off against, even after all these decades, which Dave Anthony 20:15 leads to 70, 1970s deja vu. I mean, this is the killer album, is it not? This is the one that just blows people away. Carry on, written by stills. Dave Anthony 20:36 Teach your children by Nash, teach Unknown Speaker 20:40 your children well, their father's HELL DID slowly go by. Dave Anthony 20:50 Almost cut my hair. Crosby, Unknown Speaker 20:54 almost cut my hair. You Unknown Speaker 21:03 it happened just the other day. Dave Anthony 21:05 Woodstock contributed, I guess, by Joni Mitchell, Unknown Speaker 21:16 deja vu, Crosby. Unknown Speaker 21:21 You to do, don't you? Dave Anthony 21:25 Our house Nash Unknown Speaker 21:30 is a very, very, very fine house with Dave Anthony 21:34 two cats in the yard. Life used to be so hard the hits just keep on coming. David Brown 21:41 Yeah, and, you know, it's, you know, it's, and yet it was, and yet, it was a far more difficult record to make than than the Crosby Stills and Nash record, which you, you know, I think one of the, Dave Anthony 21:55 one of the, why is that? David, well, one of David Brown 21:59 the fascinating things about this band that I certainly was reinforced as I worked on the book was that as smooth as their sound and some of the songs can be, what was happening underneath was never, always so calm, you know. And I think with the making of deja vu, throwing Neil into the mix really put everything a little bit off kilter. You know, the first Crosby Stills, Nash record stills was in charge. He had the most songs. He played most of the instruments. He was in his he was in his in his zone, in his kind of boss zone, in his like all cylinders, clicking zone driven like he really wanted. They all had a hunger with the first album for further recognition and acceptance. I think, yeah, they were in these big bands, but nobody knew who Graham Nash was. Nobody knew who David Crosby was. The average person using their names, making a record like that really validated them in a way, and certainly with stills. And so suddenly they start making deja vu, nine months later, after the first one, yeah, and you sewing Neil into the mix he's bringing his songs. He has a very different approach to making records the Crosby was Nash and for very long time, very painstaking about overdubbing instruments, overdubbing vocals, making sure those harmonies were as precise as possible. Neil is much more on the fly, you know, he doesn't. We've heard this, you know, over and over again on his music since then, he's happy to do one or two takes if it's a little rough and raw. He's fine with that. He's after the vibe and the feeling. You know, he always felt that, for example, on deja vu, he argued that the original lead vocal that stills cut on Woodstock was was really good, and kind of raw, had all this energy. And the other guys listened back to and man, could be better, and opted for a more melliferous, you know, vocal by stills and and that kind of stuff kept happening, you know, you know. And Neil doesn't even play on half that record. You know, which, which people don't even realize. Maybe because I really specify in the credits, he only plays and sings on five songs. On deja vu. He's not on carry on. He's not on deja vu. He's not on our house. It irks Nash to this day that Neil didn't sing on like his songs, the sing on teacher children in our house, he didn't play, you know, on them either. So, I mean, is Dave Anthony 24:48 there a reason for that, or is there just he didn't want to, or he wasn't around? David Brown 24:53 I think it was, that's a great question, and I think it was partly because of. Um, he was at the, you know, at this at the same time that he was making that record, he was recording with Crazy Horse, yes, and the only reason that helpless ended up on Deja Vu is that that same morning, Neil had tried recording it with Crazy Horse first, and they weren't getting the right vibe and the right groove of the song. It just didn't sound right with Crazy Horse. So that night, he brought it into the studio with Crosby hills, Nash yeah and and with them, he found the perfect throwing shadows Unknown Speaker 25:42 on Levi. Speaker 2 25:53 Rise enjoying garage to stadiums. Check us out on your favorite socials, Instagram, YouTube, X, Facebook and LinkedIn. You Unknown Speaker 26:00 So Dave Anthony 26:02 David, that gets us really to the issue of, was this a project, or was this a group? And I think you talked about that in the book that you know, you mentioned Neil working on his own stuff and the rest of them. Ultimately, there's not another album put out by CSN till, what 77 or something like that. Yep, so was it a project, or was it a group, or was there? David Brown 26:28 That's a key question, and a good one, but I think it was almost like an experiment. You know? I think, I think CSN reflected their times in so many ways. Certainly, there was the political aspect of some of their songs, whether it was for what it's worth, Ohio, Dave Anthony 26:46 David, before we play a snippet of Ohio, it's impossible not to talk about that powerful protest song, Neil Young's Ohio, which was released as a single by CSNY in 1970 in response to a seminal moment in US history. For some context, Neil Young wrote the song Ohio in direct response to the Kent State shootings on May 4, 1970 here's the backstory. Students at Kent State University in Northwest Ohio were protesting the US expansion of the Vietnam War into Cambodia, as well as the National Guard's presence on campus and the draft. During one of those protests, the Ohio National Guard opened fire on the crowd, killing four students and wounding nine others. The shooting sparked outrage and grief across the country, leading to a nationwide student strike. Hundreds of colleges and universities shut down in protest. Neil Young channeled that raw emotion and political frustration into the song Ohio, which became a searing indictment of not just the incident, but President Richard Nixon's administration itself. You Dave Anthony 28:07 that line, quote, 10 soldiers and Nixon coming, unquote still hits hard. Young wasn't pulling any punches and Nixon coming, we're finally on our Dave Anthony 28:26 own, and the staggering fact about the song, it took him only 15 minutes to write as he channeled his anger into one of the most powerful political protest songs in history. Incredibly, the song was released only three weeks after the actual incidents on the Kent State campus. And David, back to your commentary on political songwriting by the group as you were outlining. There were other politically charged songs from the group David Brown 28:52 almost cut my hair long time gone, being written after Bobby Kennedy was killed. There was their their image, their look, you know, the Crosby and the fringe jackets and all of that, very much of its time connected to Woodstock. But there was also that sort of aspect of we're going to disregard the rules of society and the rules of music that was permeating that time was, it was kind of a counterculture thing. I have two older sisters who were not rebels. Love them dearly, not rebels, but I could sense a little bit of that in them as well. And I think with CSN, it was, you know, very much of it, of its, of their generation, you know, you know. So you don't get necessarily get married to someone. You just kind of live with people. You have different partners. You do drugs openly. Crosby would light up joints in hair airports. That was illegal, you know, like, you didn't do that, but they were just like, we're going to do what we want on our terms. And that's. The new freedom of society that we are exploring and that, I think, translated into music. This was also a period when the idea of the rock band, the cohesive unit, was becoming uncool. To use a word we've used before, the Beatles were falling apart around then Simon Garfunkel were falling apart. You know, the stones were still together, of course, in other bands, but, but, but it wasn't. It was considered too constricting, right, to just be in one group with the same people. Jefferson Airplane was starting to fall apart at that point, and doing all of their little side projects and solo albums and things like that, Clapton and cream and all that stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was Yeah, exactly. Cream suddenly had that super group with blind faith. So Crosby's Nash were, were very much an extension of that, like we are not going to be a traditional group. We're using our names. This is one thing that Crosby and Nash, both, you know, asserted to me in interviews like we didn't use a name, like the the big spinach or something, whatever they joke lame. They came up with it for we used our names to make a statement that we were three individuals and then four individuals, and that if we wanted to break apart and do an album, albums on our own, or just of the two of us. That's the way it was going to be, you know, to the end, to the credit, they kind of said that from the beginning. They They more or less, I mean, there wasn't the rock press that there was in 1969 like there is now. But in, in what few interviews they did, they kind of said, Yes, this is, this is our approach. The problem was that that first Cosby's Nash album was so big and iconic, you know, from those songs to the album cover, and then really, really rammed home with their clip in Woodstock, that the general public it was a blessing. And of course, that the album was a hit, because, you know, it was a blessing. Because, yes, those guys got that big hit record that they'd always wanted. They got that validation, they got the money, all of that stuff. But the curse was that the public was like, we want more Crosby Stills and Nash and or young like, that's the group, right? Like, solo albums, okay, maybe that's nice, and the record company definitely wanted the group, and that would also come to haunt them later. Dave Anthony 32:36 Wow, that's interesting. So the the sum of the parts is greater than each individual, and it kind of overshadowed their intentions. That's interesting. I think it did. I think it did. The if we get you that Netflix series, the thing that will the thing that we need David Brown 32:56 to hire you as my agent, Dave, after this call, Dave Anthony 32:59 just so no, we're on it, the the, we're going to talk about a couple things, and I think they come together here, because we're going to talk about this infamous 1974 tour. Because, my goodness, like, it's just a scale of it, the drama, the I mean, I'll let you take over from here. David Brown 33:19 Yeah, by 1974 CSNY hadn't toured for four years, and they'd all gone off. They broke, pretty much broken up after deja vu, and made individual duo records. Neil hit the jackpot with harvest with an art of gold. I've Unknown Speaker 33:42 been he David Brown 33:45 was, he suddenly, he transcended the other guys, like right away, in terms of, in just near the record sales and things, and sort of his, his whole Mystique, which he really kind of worked hard at. You know, I still remember buying harvest, and, you know, opening up, and there's that the photograph of him, there's two photographs on that record, and, and you don't see his face, really, in either one. His hair is in one. And there's a picture of him in a doorknob. Who is this guy? But, but, you know, by 1974 the other guy, you know, there was this sense that that it was kind of time to reconvene the mothership, that maybe the solo records hadn't worked out as well as everybody thought, especially from the record company standpoint, Dave Anthony 34:41 yeah, because in 72 because in 72 Graham Nash and David Crosby put out Crosby Nash their own album together, right with immigration man. Immigration Unknown Speaker 34:52 man, can I cross the line and break happens? David Brown 35:00 Day. Yeah, and stills had Manassas, which is a right phenomenal, phenomenal and sort of sadly, kind of overlooked band now. And they one of the great double albums of of the 70s. But those weren't as big again as as Deja Vu and Crosby Stills Nash. And it just seemed like it was suddenly time to to to do the tour. And they got Bill Graham involved, one of the big promoters of their time. This was going to be a big, a big tour. Many of the shows were in stadiums, outdoor Stadium, which was not common at the time at all. So the money was going to be big, and it was going to really, it was sort of going to be reinforcing their, their their stature, in a way. And it's also kind of funny that that moment in time was when was suddenly we were getting the first wave of 60s and 50s nostalgia. That was the year of Happy Days. That was the year of Greece when it was a musical for it Dave Anthony 36:03 was a movie, Shannon, David Brown 36:05 American Graffiti, yeah, there was suddenly all of this newfound nostalgia for, you know, for the 60s, and so suddenly having these guys come back and reconvene and kind of embody that time as well. Was also pretty powerful. And I think they were. They all could use some money, you know, stills went broke with Manassas and funding it all themselves and and, you know, I one of many people I interviewed for the book, was a longtime friend of Neil's, and I asked him, like, Why did Neil Why 1974 like he? You know, Neil has reconvened with them periodically, and there were certain periods I could figure out why, but I couldn't figure why then. And he said, Well, Neil had had this ranch that he bought in Northern California, and he needed, and this guy worked on the ranch. And he said, Well, he needed to make major upgrades and repairs. It needed, like, 25,000 to pay for the roads. He had to upgrade the recording studio. He needed money for the fencing. You know, he kind of went through the whole list of of things that Neil cash and Neil needed. Neil Dave Anthony 37:14 at his kitchen table preparing the budget, saying, I better get back on the road with these guys. Yeah, David Brown 37:19 yeah. And I think you know that was, I would say that was, I would never say it was entirely the reason for it. But I think, you know, they were being offered this vast sum of money to do, you know, a month and a half of shows and things like that in stadiums. It was hard to kind of say no to that, Dave Anthony 37:36 because the scale of the stadiums, I mean, that was a big thing for that time, wasn't it? David Brown 37:40 It was, it was big, and it presented lots of, lots of problems. I mean, there were lots of perks, you know, they had pillowcases and luggage tags printed up with their logos and and, you know, there, there were lots of, you know, before the tour started, I spoke with someone who was in the crew, and their job was to spend all day in an office in San Francisco taking packs of cigarettes, regular cigarettes, taking off the cellophane, removing each cigarette and taking out the tobacco and replacing each One with weed, and then putting each one back into the cigarette case and sealing it up so you could kind of smuggle, you know, this weed on the on the road, make it just look like regular cigarettes in packages. Yeah? So, I think, Dave Anthony 38:35 yeah. So the So, the guess, I think you wrote it also that somebody said it was the biggest rock of cocaine I'd ever seen, like, like, the drugs, the right, the lifestyle, the money spent. Meanwhile, Neil, I guess you said, is traveling, he was traveling David Brown 38:52 on a separate Yeah, a little like a camper, like a mini camper with Dave Anthony 38:57 kind of Yeah. He was turning his back on the access in some ways. Was he, yeah, he David Brown 39:03 really was. I mean, it was funny, you know, Rolling Stone did a cover story on that back then, by by the great Ben Fong Torres, and Neil is barely in the story, like Ben finally tries to get an injury with him, over and over again. And Neil finally was like, sorry, you know, respectfully now I'm fine, not talking. So, you know, that was, you know, you think he'd want to be out there promoting this, but it was just the other three guys and Neil again, like just doing his own thing. But it was, yeah, it was a tour of excess. And the get back to the question about stadiums that presented all kinds of technical problems and getting the sound right. You know, you speaker systems weren't what they are now. You know, now you go to a Taylor Swift concert in a stadium like I did two years ago. It sounds incredible, and the visuals are are amazing, and it almost feels as intimate as you can possibly make such a thing. You know, back then. Then you still had, you know, just piles of of amplifiers that could and if the, if it was windy, you know, they could shift, and the vocal harmonies could be kind of, you know, wobbly as a result. And, and so, you know, it was, you know, Gunny Crosby famously called it the Doom tour, and also because they didn't end up making as much money as they thought they would, you know, all kinds of expenses. And so, yeah, and the big mistake with that tour, I think most bands to this day, when they decide to, you know, go out on tour or reunion tour, whatever it is, they go in the studio first, and they make a record, and then they did then they tour right, support the record with the tour right. And these guys did it backwards. They went. They spent all this time on the road together, enjoying themselves to some degree, at the same time, grading on each other after a while as they would. And then it's like, they get off the road. They're all like, fry, you know, from being out on on those shows, doing lots of whatever drugs along with it, and and, and just kind of burned out. Then it's like, okay, let's take a quick, quick break, and then we'll go into the studio to make a record, which was like the wrongo decision, and they had, they had all these songs ready to go. They could have recorded for it and and it just kind of fell apart almost instantly. Kind of really one of the great lost records of rock history. I think Speaker 2 41:39 need more visit us on all social platforms and garage to stadiums.com for bonus content, Dave Anthony 41:48 Graham Nash and David Cross, who put out another album, well, another couple albums, and then surprisingly stills and young, as you said, have always had a fraught relationship. Somehow they decide to collaborate on, long may you run their 76 album. Unknown Speaker 42:12 These changes Dave Anthony 42:16 would stills and and young start collaborating, of all to, you know, of all people, David Brown 42:21 you know, it was, again, I think it was that sort of bond that the two of them had as much as they were they could disagree on, on how to make records, or a different kind of lifestyles. I think there was this sort of a brotherhood aspect to those guys. And, yeah, I think there were definitely things that stood out. I mean, the two Crosby Stills, sorry, the two Crosby and Nash records, especially wind on the water, are really strong. I mean, wind on the water is a really terrific record that had them with, like the best, you know, players in LA and Danny korchmore and David Lindley and all those guys backing them up. And the songs, some of which were supposed to have been on the Lost CSN live record like carry me, carry me home. Unknown Speaker 43:12 The music, carry David Brown 43:24 those are all terrific songs, and I think they were kind of well on their way to establishing themselves as a duo. Stills, his solo career was again, a little wobbly, and I think Neil, Neil kind of felt bad for him, in a way. I think there was a sense of stills was kind of losing his way a bit, and they played on stage a couple of times and during still shows. And Neil was like, you know, what's you know, let's make another record, you know. And I think Neil's life was a little you know, his marriage was breaking, or his relationship with Carrie Snodgrass was breaking up. So he was a little bit at loose ends themselves. And, long, long may run was disappointing, because, given the expectations of those two guys together, and they were, some is not even in the studio together when they made that record, because, you know, stills was coming up all night, kind of guy, and Neil was not as much so. But, you know, there's, there was a couple of good songs on there that's kind of neat about deep sea diving and stuff, but, but again, like that was, yeah, long may you run, was supposed to be a CSNY record. You know, because one point Neil asked the Crosby Nash if they could come aboard, you know, and sing on some of the songs, and then that fell apart again for the kind of the usual more and more drama, and, yeah, tour plans and all kinds of things. So, you know. So that was, that was the the second never made you. Crosby Stills in Nash record, you know, yeah, which, William, Dave Anthony 45:05 which, I guess, leads to 77 CSN, right, coming out, finally, with together, at least the three of them with that album, and just a song before I go, written by Nash. Go to before Unknown Speaker 45:27 I go twice the speed Dave Anthony 45:29 fair game by fills, Dave Anthony 45:39 Dark Star stills David Brown 45:41 see the changes. David Brown 45:55 Which had been a CSN wine song first and from one of those aborted reunion albums, right? Yeah, that was, that was a record again, that, you know, the there was, there is said earlier, a group of constant dysfunction and drama. You know, when, when Neil and stills wiped off the Crosby and Nash singing on the on the stills, young album stills and Crosby were really angry. And I remember there was an interview with Nash in Crawdaddy magazine right then where he was, like, living, you know, in right, you know, right on the record. It's just like, I've had it with these guys, you know, screw them. He didn't say, Screw screw them. They're, they're, they're messing I'm, I'm sick of being jerked around like this. Yeah, hell with them. You know, it's just like whoa. And then, like, a month later, Crosby and Nasher doing a show in LA stills is again, it kind of loose ends. His marriage is falling apart. His solo records aren't doing well. He kind of, you know, takes his hat in his hand and goes to their show. They're still pissed at him, but they, they, they hang out backstage and decide, let's give it another shot. And the pressure is on at this point. You know, you know it at that point, it had been seven years since deja vu, the public was kind of starting to forget about them. You had the Eagles, you had America, you had all these other groups swooping in, not to use the Eagles metaphor, but swooping in to kind of take their place and being much more professional about it, like making records on time and putting them regularly, putting out regular records out regularly, and touring behind them. And you know, the eagles were a contentious band too, but you know, they still stuck to their mission and their and their and their whole path. They didn't get distracted by some of the stuff CSN did, and you had all these other groups, you know, kind of, you know, kind of filling in for them and superseding them. And so the pressure was really on in 76 and 77 on carpe diesels, Nash to, kind of, to make another record. They also still owed, Atlantic Records, records, another thing to to remember that they signed a multi year record contract in 1968 right? It wasn't two albums, you know, yeah, the label was, you know, chomping at the bit for that. And, but, you know, they and they, but they, the pressure was on, and they got it together, and they made that record fairly efficiently in Florida and and even though Crosby was starting to get in the grip, fall into the grips of his addiction, they still managed to hold it together as a group and a unit and, and that's a very strong record. Dave Anthony 48:56 Yeah. And then the 80s start to emerge, kind of as our next era. And I think we'd be remiss without talking about that decline that you just mentioned of David Crosby man, like, yeah, guys, just falls off a cliff or something. Like, what is going on in this his life? David Brown 49:18 Yeah. I mean, he, I mean, I think, you know, he would often say a lot of it started with the death of his girlfriend, Christine, which also happened during the making of deja vu. So which was, I kind of forgot to kind of mention that, but Deja Vu was a difficult record to make with Neil in the mix, and stills not being the boss as much, and being a little unnerved by that, but also Crosby being out of it, because right as they started the record, his girlfriend is killed in a car crash, and, and it took him a while, I think he overcompensated for a while with even more drugs and more kind of escapist and and, and. I think he was, he had, for all of his cockiness, had a lot of self doubt, and a lot of, you know, growing up being called chubby by his parents, and he had a lot of inner angst as well. And I think he hit a lot of that with drug addiction, and that just got worse, you know, as the 70s wore on, and it led to falling out with him and Nash for a while there, you know, when they were making a record together, and Crosby's crack, you know, crack pipe fell off an amplifier, and the music stopped, so that Crosby could drop to the ground and gather all the pieces together of his body. And that was Nash. Was like, you know, this was one of Nashville, okay, this is now becoming a problem, you know, getting high and making records. Hey, whatever we all do, but when it starts to really affect things, like in a visceral way, like that, yeah? And by Yes, by the mid 80s, early to mid 80s, Crosby was, was, you know, deeply addicted to freebasing and surrounding himself with lots of skis, skivy characters and broke and he's starting to get arrested for ramming his car off the roads or having drugs backstage at one of his own little club shows in Texas, and having guns. And, yeah, you know, you know, I remember, you know, following, you know, that whole saga. You know, as it happened, some of us, did you know? Some of us were alive in and just reading in Rolling Stone or reading like this, horrify, horrifying cover story People magazine in the early 80s. You know, interviewing Crosby at home. He's got sores on his face. His girlfriend Jan is crying in the house. He's like, talking how he's broke. And it was, it was really harrowing. Kind of, Dave Anthony 51:52 what did he say? What did he say to you about that period living? Was he kind of like, holy cow. What was I thinking David Brown 51:58 he was very much, you know, and he was kind of, I think, embarrassed by it and and realized that he had sort of gone too far. And, you know, the guy, the other guys were pulling him back in to make a record, and he kind of questions whether it was how much of that was them really caring about him, how much of them was wanting to keep the band business going, you know. And that became a whole issue with, you know, I think the most, the most drama ever, in a way, was with the making of daylight again, which, again, an album that we think of as this, I hate to use the term soft rock classic. It has Southern Cross on there. David Brown 52:53 That song on the radio constantly. It has Nash is wasted on the way. Did you Speaker 4 53:02 question? All? You David Brown 53:08 question you listen to that record and think, Oh, this is kind of a mellow vibe, and they got back into their zone, but so much drama under that while that record was being made because Crosby was just was really getting out of it. They couldn't find him. You know, this is days before cell phones and GPS, and they literally couldn't find he. Was holed up in his house with a landline and not always answering the phone or out getting drugs or whatever. And it still isn't natural, like the hell with it. Let's just make a record with the two of us. So they start making a record with the two of them. They make a whole record with the two of them. And again, Atlantic Records hears it and says, No, thanks. This has to be Crosby Stills and Nash. That's, we didn't sign up stills in Nash. We need Crosby Stills in Nash. That's what sells the most records, right? So they drag Crosby back into it, and he's not in great shape. And then they go out and tour with it, which becomes a whole other dramatic thing, because they have to figure out ways for the David could actually take breaks doing the show to get high. So they make sure they have a separate room off the side of the stage where you can go in Freebase and they come back on. It was, you know, even, like, excess standards, that was a lot. Dave Anthony 54:31 All the you're just reinforcing why we're going to get you a Netflix deal. This is going to be unbelievable. The Let's talk. We're gonna, you know, we're moving to the end here. But let's talk about, if you had to describe these guys, each of them, in a few words, because I think I want to set up what were the key rivalries. But let's talk about the personalities first. If you had to sort of say Stephen Stills, because when I read about Stephen Stills in your book, I. Couldn't believe the work ethic on this guy. I mean, he'd spend 24 hours in the studio straight, David Brown 55:05 sometimes more than that, yeah, a Dave Anthony 55:09 bit about, tell us a bit about each guy. Yeah, David Brown 55:12 this kind of really hit me when I was thinking about it, when I was doing the book. And I think, I think each of them was this archetype. And I think, I think that was another part of the appeal of having this group with four very different personalities. I think you could people could perhaps relate to each one of them, even maybe at different times. You know. So stills was very much driven, as you just said. I think he had a real, a need to be successful. He, you know, he was talented, but he also he wanted to be a pop star and have that kind of lifestyle and that kind of recognition, which is totally, you know, fine on the condemning attitude, but I think that really drove him to also overcome his own kind of self doubt issue. So I think you could kind of people could maybe kind of relate to that as someone who was kind of in charge and bossy and just wanted to, wanted to succeed. Yeah, Crosby very much embodied that, that rebel, that bad boy rebel side that maybe some of us want to, want to be at times that sort of, I don't care about the rules. Again, I'm going to do what I want. I'm going to take whatever drug I want, sleep with whoever I want to be, kind of this feisty, you know, bad boy Nash, on the other hand, a more courtly, refined guy that I think maybe some people could relate to or get aspired to be. He was also sort of more of the ladies man, as say, of the group, and that, you know, he was kind of the sensitive. He was like the sensitive guy. And Dave Anthony 57:03 was he? Was he the peacemaker of the group? He David Brown 57:06 also was that, not all the time, but a lot of times he was, yeah, yeah. He was the one who was the most focused on the band, as as as a band, as a business, really. And that would extend for decades, he was the one who was more in tune with the business deals and also more in tune with the obligations they had and making sure they finished a record, if that was even possible. And then Neil, of course, to use the title of one of his own songs, was the loner. And he was the guy who basically wasn't always he was non committal. You know, he could decide to be with them or not, or just take his own path, this way or that way. And I think again, that's, that's its own kind of archetype. And maybe people, some people, might want to aspire to be that way. So I think each of them really embodied a different kind of attitude toward life and work and and lifestyles that just added up to this kind of kind of fascinating puzzle. You have four guys who you can the last four guys in the world you can ever imagine being a band together from their cultural backgrounds and their musical backgrounds and their personalities. And yet, Dave Anthony 58:19 when it worked, yeah, it's interesting because it's almost hard to catalog. The key rivalry is within the foursome, because at various times, they each kind of hated each other, even to the point where David Brown 58:30 actually made a little list. You know, you, you mentioned you wanted to. Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's hear it do a bit of a flow chart on that. This Dave Anthony 58:40 is the first ever flow chart on garage. Actually, you had a David Brown 58:44 flow chart in the book, you know, among other things. But, I mean, certainly, you know, stills and Young had a rivalry early on in the Springfield, as we've discussed, and that that kind of extended into, like the deja vu period. Then you had Stills and Nash having a rivalry, which right after that, which started with Rita Coolidge, who stills was had a fling with. And then Nash kind of stole her away from him. And right both songs in their catalog all about this. Dave Anthony 59:19 And then Joni Mitchell, of course, between Mitchell, David Brown 59:22 yeah, Joni had a relationship with, with, with Nash, but not with the other guys. So that was, Dave Anthony 59:28 I thought Crosby and her were, yeah, it's hard David Brown 59:32 to tell yes, they were kind of together. But when, when she went to Nash, that that didn't seem like a big deal, because Crosby had met his other girlfriend. So again, again, that free lifestyle thing coming into play. Then, of course, stills and Crosby, but it has a lot, especially starting in the 80s, when Crosby had, you know was went to jail for his drug. Guns thing, and had to clean up. Still, not so much in terms of the cleaning app, you know, he only recently admitted, you know, to to Rolling Stone, that he's, you know, kind of gotten rid of all that stuff in his life. But, you know, like, because he hit the alcohol too, he was a heavy drinker, and there was drugging for sure and and so that was tension there in them in the 80s and 90s, because Crosby was really trying to stay clean. And stills was like, You know what I just want to do, what I want to do, good for you, but Don't lecture me. I'm my own person. If I want to do this, if I want to drink, I'm going to do it. So there was all kinds of tensions there you know, Crosby and Nash had various fallings out. So we mentioned one earlier with the crack pipe. And then then you had Crosby and Neil having a big falling out. Guess at this point, what year are we a little over a decade ago, and Neil at that point, was in a relationship with Daryl Hannah, who we would know he's now married to, and Crosby kind of dissed her in an interview, and that that shattered that alliance for a long time. So it there are many different rivalries and and fallings out, yeah, this constant, constant churn of that and, and the really and the really unfortunate one was at the very end, you know, Crosby. Crosby and Nash had a big falling out around 2015 2016 over circumstances that are still a little mysterious, but certainly one of them was that Graham Nash published a memoir that had a lot in it about Crosby and his drug addiction and all of this personal stuff as Crosby, what kind of upset Crosby, even though it was public knowledge, but it really upset Crosby that there was so much of that in Nash's book, And he felt Nash didn't hold himself accountable for his own lifestyle and choices and relationships. So Crosby felt that Nash really kind of exploited Crosby and Nash's own book, and they had a huge falling out for the first time at that point in like 40 years, they'd been like friends for over 40 years, and that never that they never reconciled until cause right before. Wow, by the time Crosby died, which was really, really the tragic one, then went, Dave Anthony 1:02:29 Well, David, that was an extensive that's, that's a good summary of all the different rivals. It's the complexity. There'll be David Brown 1:02:37 a flow chart at the end of the Netflix Dave Anthony 1:02:39 series, exactly the historically we look back on CSN, CSNY, what's their place in music history? What will people say? David Brown 1:02:49 I think they'll say. They'll look back at that group that really embodied, I think, the most noble aspects of the of the 60s, I think the rivalries and the feuds will always be there in the background, the drug problems of Crosby and his lifestyle. But I think in the end, the way that they held it together for the most part, in the studio and created this music, songs that have endured, people are still covering helplessly, hoping, Speaker 4 1:03:24 gasping at glimpses of gentle, true spirit, wishing he could fly David Brown 1:03:37 and wooden ships and our house to this day, I went to a Crosby Stills and Nash tribute concert here in New York at Carnegie Hall last year with, you know, a whole, a whole range of artists doing their songs, including, like deep cuts, like Dark Star, which is kind of Amazing. And so I think in the end, that the image that that that 60s and Woodstock image that, in a way, dogged them later on, oh, they're just a relic of that time. Now, you know, by the time the 80s came out, they're just old hippies and relics of that 60s time, I think, in a way that will come back to be kind of a blessing, and God knows what's ahead of us as a country now. But I think this idea that they, they're the embodiment of, you know, of peace and love, even if they didn't always live up to that, but that they they aimed for that. They aim for that their songs. They aim for that in their harmonies. They aim for that as a cultural statement, and also their political beliefs. They weren't afraid to say things on stage in their songs that people can now get people maybe thrown in jail for. I think all of that stuff will. Will come back to enhance their legacy in a way that it maybe hadn't for a long time Dave Anthony 1:05:05 very well put the for fun. We thought we'd end with you picking one song of each artist that maybe just shows the different styles of the writing. David Brown 1:05:18 I'll pick a couple of ones that aren't as well known, I think. But yeah, sure, part of our fans will know there are two songs that that were intended for deja vu that didn't make it, that were later made for solo records. There's a song of Crosby's called song with no words, tree with no leaves. You David Brown 1:05:52 This is beautiful vocal piece that you can hear on his album, if I can only remember my name, and I think that song really embodies the way that he took different, that he that his love of vocal, choral music and of unconventional time changes and tunings, and that's what he kind of brought to them into kind of, it's kind of Popular music, in a way, and like that stemmed from his, his love of like jazz and choral music, as opposed to Chuck Berry, okay, I think that song like that. Okay, I would go with Nash's sleek song. I looked around, Speaker 4 1:06:38 I saw the back of your dress as you sneak through the door. David Brown 1:06:47 I would go with stills as Dark Star from the 77 Mooney album. And David Brown 1:07:01 I would say Neil's country girl from deja vu, okay, which I think was his best use of Crosby Stills and Nash as a backup band for him. Dave Anthony 1:07:16 You? Yeah, David, it's been such a pleasure to have you on garage to stadiums. Your book is a real portrait of, as you said, the first probably super group, and the drama, the conflict, but the harmony and the impact that these guys made. And I wanted to thank you today for illuminating our audience on that entire story, and we'll work on that Netflix deal for you. David Brown 1:07:45 Absolutely, and you know the books available on, hopefully your local bookstore and Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all those places, and absolutely, it was great. It was great talking today. Much appreciated. Have I had a blast talking about this stuff? So Dave Anthony 1:08:02 some closing notes on Crosby Stills Nash and Young after the release of their debut album, Crosby Stills and Nash won the Grammy Award for Best New artists of 1969 David Crosby's father Floyd Crosby had his own name in lights long before his son ever dreamed of being famous. Floyd Crosby was an Academy Award winning cinematographer for more than 100 Hollywood movies, including the 1952 Western classic High Noon. Stephen Stills was involved with musician Judy Collins from 1968 to 69 and wrote the song sweet Judy blue eyes for her the CSNY song Our house is about the house in Laurel Canyon that Graham Nash shared with his then girlfriend, Joni Mitchell, which Nash wrote in less than an hour. Remember Altamont, the infamous concert headlined by The Rolling Stones in December 1969 where bike gang members provided security and actually killed a fan, in addition to other acts of violence, Crosby Stills and Nash appeared alongside Santana Jefferson Airplane, the flying Burrito Brothers and the stones, but at the request of CSN, their performance was not included in the subsequent film The Gimme Shelter when released in 1970 deja vu, the first CSNY album topped the US charts during a 97 week stay and generated three hit singles, including the still sung cover of Joni Mitchell's Woodstock And both of Nash's contributions, teach your children and our house worldwide sales of the 1970 album currently sit at over 8 million copies. David Crosby has many interesting stories tied to his legacy. In 1982 after being convicted of several drugs and weapons offenses. Crosby spent nine months in a Texas state prison. The drug charges were related to possession of heroin and cocaine. Crosby was the recipient also of a highly publicized liver transplant in 1994 which was paid for by performer Phil Collins. In the late 90s, Crosby helped singer Melissa Etheridge and her then partner, Julie cipher, become parents through the process of artificial insemination. At the time of the birth, the identity of the donor was anonymous, Etheridge later revealed that their friend Crosbie had been the donor. Unfortunately, etheridge's son died at 21 years of age of drug addiction. Crosby Stills and Nash were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1997 Crosby Stills Nash in Young is not in the Hall of Fame, but is the first band to have all its members inducted into the Hall twice. David Crosby for the Byrds in CSN, Stephen Stills for Buffalo Springfield and CSN, Graham Nash for the Hollies in CSN and Neil Young for Buffalo Springfield. And as a solo artist, Steven stills came close to becoming one of the monkeys on the monkeys TV show. They were looking for four young, musically inclined actors to star in a Beatles style sitcom. Stills then an emerging songwriter and performer auditioned for one of the lead roles. Stills was reportedly passed over due to dental issues, his receding hairline and his unwillingness to sign over musical control. He recommended his roommate and close friend Peter Tork, who got the gig. Stephen Stills 1970 debut album featured both Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton on separate tracks. The only time the two guitar legends appeared on an album together. The album was released in November 1972 months after Hendrix's death. Thanks for making garage the stadium one of the top 5% of podcasts in the world. We'd love for you to follow our shows on your favorite podcast platform so you can be alerted when our next episode drops. Follow us for some great music history content posted on our social channels, Instagram, X, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. Our YouTube channel has additional bonus coverage from our interviews. Visit us at garage to stadiums for more bonus content on all the bands featured and links to great downloadable playlists on Apple and Spotify special. Thanks to our guest today, David Brown, author of Crosby Stills, Nash and Young, the wild, definitive saga of rock's greatest supergroup. Thanks to our producers, Amina fauber and Connor Sampson, our program director Scott Campbell, Creative Director Chad Raymond and video director Nigel Campbell, you've been listening to garage to stadiums. I'm Dave Anthony. See you next time for another garage to stadium story, Unknown Speaker 1:12:55 another blast furnace labs, production. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai