Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 658: Are Governor's Tags Un-American: REDUX

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Ep. 658: Are Governor's Tags Un-American: REDUX · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
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  Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I t
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: E dot com. Hey, everybody, welcome to Our governor Tags.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Our Governor's tags on American reducts? Is that the right right?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: You used to reducts? Remember they did apocalypse now and
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: they recut it and call it reducts.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know to redo do over?
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Well, where we are sells are are in the hot seat.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: We did an episode Our Governor's Tags on American and
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: and you know the the the episode was phrased as
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: though it was a question. But I think there was
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  Speaker 1: an overriding There was an overriding sentiment in the room
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: about you know, it's.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: It's hyperbolic language.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Overriding sentiment in the room of I would say a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: tipping a the Governor's tags. The sentiment in the room
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: is that governor's tags tipped on American We were called
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: out on this by Gray Thornton from the Wild Sheep Foundation,
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  Speaker 1: which is the pre eminent wild cheap conservation organization in America,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and in all fairness, does more than any entity in
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: putting wild sheep back on the mountain, keeping wild sheep
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: on the mountain. So we had to hear him out,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: and he's here today to tell us where we went wrong.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: In his opinion, Gray, I want to keep the I
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: want to keep it. I want to keep all this fair. Yeah,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So I want to who gets to who gets to
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: say just to bring people up to speed? Who gets
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: to say who gets to describe what a governor's tag is.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: I'm happy to give it a shot.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Give it a shot, and then if you do it
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: and I don't like it, I'll give you.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I'll give your thumbs down. You know, here's a good thing,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: is Stephen? This is your show. Yeah, So I'm just
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: honored to be here. No, I don't. I don't know
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: if I called it out. We just wanted to point
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: out some things that we would have liked, at least
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: at least had stated.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: So I get criticized about something or another every day,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: okay and I both now most of them I kind
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: of like laugh them off. But your criticism of some
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: of the comments that were made on that episode struck
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: me so much that I emailed you within seconds of
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: reading them.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: So like you know, when you.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Get you know, if you get called out in a
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: way where you're like, okay, all right, you know I
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: get a mean email every day from my friend Doug,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: and you know you asked him, I'll usually reply by
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I asked them, if you've seen any turkeys around? How's
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the turkey's looking in other news? But no, no, I yeah,
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  Speaker 1: tell everybody what a governor's tag is. So well, let's
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: talk about what it is before we talk about.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: What it was. It mean.
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, where did they come from?
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  Speaker 3: And so the first governor's tag was actually given to
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  Speaker 3: what was then the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep
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  Speaker 3: now Wild Chief Foundation in nineteen eighty by Governor Ed
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Herschler from Wyoming and a lot different than they are today.
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  Speaker 3: But the idea from Ed's perspective was, hey, we have
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: these highly coveted tags opportunities. We've got this fairly new organization,
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  Speaker 3: Foundation of North American Wild Chief was founded in nineteen
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  Speaker 3: seventy seven. So three years later, what if we gave
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: one of these tags, they sold it at auction and
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  Speaker 3: we just mandate that they dedicate all the funds to
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Wild Chief Conservation in Wyoming. So that's how the whole
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: process started. And so back then, yeah, it's it was
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: a governor's tag and so.
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  Speaker 1: Because the state wasn't able to the state didn't have
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: the mechanism to sell it themselves.
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  Speaker 3: No, so they kind of look at a you know,
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  Speaker 3: at an NGO as you know, we're the ones that
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  Speaker 3: can put on the party, put on the show, and
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  Speaker 3: there's there's a number of us out there that are
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: doing it. But it was kind of a changing point
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  Speaker 3: for wild Chief conservation funding, bottom line finase or you know,
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  Speaker 3: now wild Chief foundations in is in existence because sheep
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  Speaker 3: weren't a priority. They didn't pay their way. Too few
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  Speaker 3: and unlike elk, unlike meal deer, and like white tails,
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  Speaker 3: unlike you know, even turkeys, not enough of them to
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  Speaker 3: fund their conservation. So for many agencies, they really weren't
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  Speaker 3: a priority.
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  Speaker 1: You might explain them what that means by not enough
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  Speaker 1: to fund the conservation.
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  Speaker 2: You know, for example, let's let's look at Montana.
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  Speaker 3: We'll look at twenty twenty three data, twenty twenty four
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  Speaker 3: data six hundred and fifty eight, six hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 3: six tags made available five hundred and fifty eight to
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: residents that brought in And this is this is twenty
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  Speaker 3: twenty three data sixty nine, seven hundred and fifty bucks.
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  Speaker 4: You're talking sheep, now, sheep.
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  Speaker 3: Bighorn sheep tags. Ninety eight non resident tags brought in
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  Speaker 3: a little over one hundred and twenty two thousand dollars.
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  Speaker 3: So one hundred and ninety eight thousand dollars total for
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  Speaker 3: bighorn cheap conservation from the sale of.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: Tags, from the sale of six hundred tags.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not a lot of money. You know. I started
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: really looking at this ten years prior, back in twenty fourteen,
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  Speaker 3: and looked and thought, because I was, I was fortunate
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  Speaker 3: up to take a big horn in our unlimited area
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  Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen, I paid regulations. Oh crazy, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I was. I was a non resident hunter. I paid
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: seven hundred and fifty bucks. Coincidentally, that year at our show,
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  Speaker 3: the Montana tag sold for four hundred and eighty thousand
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  Speaker 3: dollars twenty thirteen, so I was looking at the funding model, going,
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  Speaker 3: this is kind of interesting. You know, how relevant are
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: these tags to Wild Chief conservation? How relevant is Wild
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  Speaker 3: Chief Foundation to the Wild Chief economy because we're one
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  Speaker 3: of the organizations that sells the most. So I did
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  Speaker 3: kind of a deep dive and I had a couple
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  Speaker 3: of our biologists look at WAFWA data, and you know,
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  Speaker 3: I think at back in twenty fourteen, it hasn't changed
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  Speaker 3: too much. I think it was about one hundred and
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  Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars came to the state on the non
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  Speaker 3: auction or raffle tech. Well, hell you can't. You can't
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  Speaker 3: buy a pickup truck and fund a biologist for that.
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  Speaker 3: So how the hell are we going to fund wild
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  Speaker 3: cheap conservation? And that's really what Ed Hirschler was looking
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  Speaker 3: at back in nineteen eighty is that they don't pay
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  Speaker 3: their way. They're just there's so few of them, and
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  Speaker 3: the revenues so stream is so small. From the whether
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  Speaker 3: they're l EH tags or not, that there's l EH
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  Speaker 3: limited entry hunting. You know what most of us in
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  Speaker 3: North America see is well, we got to apply for
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: a sheep tag. You know, we're blessed in Montana the
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  Speaker 3: only Lower forty eight state that you can in effect
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  Speaker 3: buying over the counter sheep tag. Pretty fricking cool. We've
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: got to protect that. Alaska obviously you can buy over
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: counter dolls tag, although now that's every third year for
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: a non resident. Canada's where you can you know, just
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: buy over the counter. For Canadian residents, you know, we
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  Speaker 3: obviously have to have an outfitter. So it was a
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  Speaker 3: unique funding model, and it's it's certainly grown, you know,
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  Speaker 3: in Wild Chief Foundation. Quite frankly, it has been you know,
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  Speaker 3: kind of the premier governor's tag, and now we like
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: to call them conservation permits because that's really what they are,
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  Speaker 3: because they're not only governors. British Columbia has a minister's license.
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  Speaker 3: Alberta has a minister's license. Tribal tags we sell. We
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  Speaker 3: sell tags for the Taus Pueblo, for the Navajo Nation,
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  Speaker 3: We've sold them for the Wala Pie, We've sold them
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  Speaker 3: for the Kwani First Nation up in up in Northwest,
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, in Yukon. So it's you know, we we
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  Speaker 3: we glump them into a little i think more descriptive
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  Speaker 3: definition called a conservation permit, which I think really identifies
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  Speaker 3: what they are. And Stephen back in twenty fourteen, when
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  Speaker 3: I ask our conservation guys to do this deep dive,
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  Speaker 3: they used Western Association of Fishing wildliche Agency data WAFFWA
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  Speaker 3: data and found that seventy three percent of all wild
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  Speaker 3: sheep agency funding came from either a auction tag, conservation permit,
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  Speaker 3: or a raffle tag, with the majority of the money
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  Speaker 3: coming in from an auction tag. Fast forward ten years later,
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  Speaker 3: we're still still quantifying the data. Right now, it's about
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: eighty three percent in the United States of sheep sheep
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  Speaker 3: conservation funding at the agency level come from either an
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: off auction or raffle tech.
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  Speaker 4: So is it like when one of these tags, conservation permit,
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  Speaker 4: government tag, whatever you want to call them, get sold,
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  Speaker 4: is it mandated that that money goes is too wild
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  Speaker 4: cheap conservation?
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  Speaker 3: Or is it diluted? It all roady? That's that's the
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  Speaker 3: million dollar question. The easy answer is yes. Now it's
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  Speaker 3: you know, the proofs in the pudding and in the implementation.
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  Speaker 3: You know, one of the misnomers is you know, I
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  Speaker 3: mean we just we just had our convention in Reno.
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  Speaker 3: We sold thirty tags. We're going to direct about six
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: point eight million dollars to state, provincial, tribal, territorial, and
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  Speaker 3: federal agencies to the sale of those thirty tags. By statute,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Wild Sheep Foundation has to direct those moneies to the agency.
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  Speaker 3: What the agencies do for it a little deeper dive,
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  Speaker 3: and I'd like to jump into that, but a misnomer is,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: oh my god, weld Chief Foundation got all this money.
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  Speaker 3: No Arizona one hundred percent of the proceeds from the
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  Speaker 3: sale of any any special tag conservation permit that we
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: go back to the state Arizona Game and Fish Nevada
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  Speaker 3: one goes back to Nevada Department of Wildlife. The average
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: that we would retain is about ten percent. If you
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: look at look at all the agencies. If you look
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  Speaker 3: at just this last two weeks ago at our sheep show,
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  Speaker 3: seven point three some odd million, we're going to keep
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: six hundred and some odd thousand. It's eight point nine
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  Speaker 3: percent coming back to the Wild Chief Foundation from the
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  Speaker 3: sale of those tags. Again, some of them are one
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  Speaker 3: hundred percent of the agencies, most of them are around ten.
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  Speaker 3: British Columbia is fifteen percent that we can retain. Alaska,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: interesting enough, has a different kind of a rule. But
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  Speaker 3: the moneys have to go back to an Alaska NGO.
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  Speaker 3: So we we sell the conservation permit, one goes back
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: to our Alaska chapter. I think they keep fifteen percent
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  Speaker 3: and then they direct the rest to State of Alaska.
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  Speaker 3: So I can certainly show you where Wild Chief Foundation
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  Speaker 3: directs our monies. I mean, this year we're budgeting about
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: two point seven two point eight in grant eight going
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: out of a three point seven million that will fund education, conservation,
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: you know, education, youth education, engaging women disease research. But
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: so much of what we do is grant neate out.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: An agency or a chapter applies for a grant, we
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: give that money away. We keep six hundred and some
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  Speaker 3: one thousand dollars from these permits we're giving away three
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: point seven. You know, it's not a it's not a
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  Speaker 3: money maker for us, but it is a hell of
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: a money maker for the agencies. And that's that's what
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: we're trying to focus on. And you know, if there's
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: a better way to do it, we're all ears because
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: our focus is that ram you or lamb on the
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: ridge line, and how do we put money into the
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: agency to affect their conservation, their enhancement, their repatriation, the
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: restoration habitat and all that. Uh so did I did
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  Speaker 3: I pass? Did we call it conservation permit?
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy with the definition of conservation permit.
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  Speaker 1: Uh one of the things. So this is something I said.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: If you look at our thing, krinn was a quote,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: they made an extra tag.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, you were, you were. I think you were trying
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: to figure out.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Like I think what you were saying is it wasn't
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: coming out of the same pool that people drop.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Whose side was I on when I said that.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: There, I think it got you on the right side,
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: because that's absolutely correct.
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: Okay, you qualified that you were like undecided and split
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: down the middle.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: What I said, this is one of the two things.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: No, I remember, I said, this is one of the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: few things in life I don't have an opinion about.
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: I'm too torn.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we can.
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: We can bring in some of Cow's arguments later. I
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: think that's that's interesting.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, So let's let's let's dive into one of the
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: let's let's dive into one of these these aspects of
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: governor's tags. It gets people riled up, right, Sorry, conservation permits.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna call them governor's tags, okay, just because that's well, no,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: I'll try to I say governor's tags. Other guys know
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. If I say conservation tag, They're
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: not going to know what I'm talking about.
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: The rebranding is it's kind of like the Golf of
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: Mexico and the Gulf of America.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: But then it.
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: Doesn't mean that we should stick with.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: Stick with governor's tags. But when we go to when
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: we go to b C or permit where we're talking tribal,
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I'll call it a tribal permit.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, you know there's an outfitter. Uh, there's a guide that.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: So I'm talking about Golf of America.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: I kind of felt like you wouldn't let that just go.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: There's a there's a So sometimes when we spearfish down
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: in Louisiana, we stay in this place and next to
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: the place is the Golf of America charter.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: You know, Oh, that's the name of their outfitter.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: That was my first because this is years ago, that
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: was my first awareness. I just like chuckled about the
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Golf of America.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: He was ahead of the game.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: He's way ahead of so it must have been brewing
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: a long time. I got like, I'm totally fine golf.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I'm totally fine golf of America.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: The Nalely. I feel like that's pretty solidified in Alaskan culture.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Even the politicians in Alaska like what Yeah, I don't
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: know it was a problem with the name.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: I do remember it being McKinley. Uh.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, here's one. Here's a governor's tag argument folks make
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: when they're arguing about this. Oh you know what, you
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: know what made me they want to think about this?
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: In all fairness, we have to get into the fact
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: that there is a class there's there's a class issue here.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but that question.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: So the other night, uh, Saturday, two Saturdays ago. I
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: didn't watch it, but I watched on YouTube. David Chappelle
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: did the opening monologue on Saturday Night Live. And Chappelle
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: was talking about the LA fires, and he was talking
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: about reading commentary and news articles of people saying, uh,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm glad those rich Californians there's houses are
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: getting burned down, and he said, Chappelle says, that's why
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I hate poor people. They can't see beyond their own pain.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: So there there is a there is a class issue
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: to this, Like anything to do with wealth access, any
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: kind of financial privilege, right, is going to generate animosity.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: You hear someone went to Yale, there's a judgment. Like
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: if that's not part of your family trajectory, there's a
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: judgment if someone has.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter in America, doesn't matter if you're talking
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: about sheep or like.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: Real estate or whatever.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: It's like there is like he paid blank million for
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: that house boom, right, Like there's a judgment, right, and so.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: We need to get there, Like I'd like to get
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: there on the.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Issue of just like a perceived sense in America, like
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I guess globally historically, a perceived sense that there's like
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: two playing fields and that the people of wealth have
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: access to things that that people don't have, and implied
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and add to some sort of sense that most people
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: have wealth don't deserve it. So that's just burning, that's
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: simmering underground, and we'll remember to get to it. But
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: let's start with another. Let's start with a less philosophical point,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: because this is just like a factual point. Give me
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: a how many tags did Montana issue for big horns?
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: One one for auction one for raffle.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: No, no, I'm sorry, six hundred. In twenty twenty three,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: it was six hundred and fifty six total. Okay, there
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: is a perception that right that it would.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Have been sorry, somebody the number again, six fifty six.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: So through the public draw they issue six hundred and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: fifty six big horn tags. There's a perception that the
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: number would have been six hundred and fifty seven.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Correct, So that one other.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: We should use a state that doesn't have nearly as many,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: because there's so many and it seems like a lot
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: of mine.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: What's the state that doesn't have shit for big horn tags?
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Nebraska? I don't want to go that extreme as a
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: big horn tag, all right, but yeah, no, I see
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: your point.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: There's a perception there it should have been six fifty seven.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: So some lucky guy, some some would be lucky guy
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: that would have gone down and did the draw got
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: screwed out of his big horn tag. Okay, But they
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: auctioned it off to the highest bidder. So we've seen
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: a diminishment of the public pool. Now I want you
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: to tackle whether that's true or not. But then that's
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: gonna bring up a broader question if if they create
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: an extra tag to facilitate a conservation tag auction, that
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: makes me feel like the number of tags they're issuing
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: becomes kind of arbitrary, Like, how do you create an
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: extra tag if the the number of tags that are
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: being distributed is like a biologically driven reality?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Meaning if it, how did it go from six fifty
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: six to six fifty seven?
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: So I got a, I think an answer that you're
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: going to appreciate, you know. Again, Well, I'll go back
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: to the unlimited area. You know, we've got three to
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: four to five kind of depending on the year, unlimited areas.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: You know, our our guru in this state, the biologist
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Sean Stewart. You listen to him talk about the the allocation,
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: the quota for those used to be three and some
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: now it's pretty much two. We all know there's some
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: years that they take three, four, five, sometimes six. You know,
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: so you might have a quota of two, but there's
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: six taken legally. Yeah, can you explain how that happens?
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Just for that's it? Well, so there's a there's a
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: forty eight hour window when the season closes. You know,
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: in my particular case, I took a ram i was
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: the second ram taken in twenty fourteen in the unit
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: I was hunting. Tried to close the season by sending
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: an end reach in. They don't accept that, so, you know,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: went through my wife and then called fish Wildife Parks.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: They go, no, Gray's got to call you. Uh, I
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: don't know sell signal. I don't. I don't have a
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: cell signal. I don't have a SAT phone, so I'm
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: using in reach and and you know, long and short.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Sean finally went, oh, wait a minute, I know who
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: that guy is. And oh, by the way, he's with
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Jack Atchison. If there's anyone that knows sheep, it's Jack,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: and uh, yeah, we're going to close the season. But
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: in that case, there was another twenty four hour delay
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: and another sheep was taken, so three sheep were taken
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: legally in the unit on a QUOTEA of two. There's
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: been times where you know, five people shoot a sheep
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: in one day. You've got to you've got to You've
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: got forty eight hours to to report that to either
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: a conservation officer or a game board or a biologist.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: So there's that lag period. You listen to Sean Stewart,
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: he's he'll tell you it's biologically insignificant, so that that third, fourth, fifth,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: even six sheep is biologically insignificant in the overall scheme
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: of the unlimited units that he's responsible for. So we
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: take that Stephen go back to you know, the state
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: of Montana, and you're you were absolutely correct. It is
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: by typically by the legislature, an authorized additional tag to
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: what game and fish is going to say, hey, this
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: is this is what our off take is going to be.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: The typical off take for bighorn sheep males that's considered
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: sustainable is from a from an allocation standpoint is two
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: to three percent of males. Sue conservative, Wow, so that's lower, right,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: super conservative. So that's what the state's going to allodate or.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: The orre low because I know this is this is
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: really hard to People are going to argue about these
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: numbers all the time. Sure, but I've heard with deer
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: management thirteen percent not just the males.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: But the hurt right, and and you know, and now
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: think of recruitment. You know, to to increase a herd,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: you need recruitment of twenty twenty two to twenty three percent,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: whether it's big orn cheap, whether it's elk, whether it's
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: mule deer, whether it's white tail. Well, now we're harvesting
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: and if and if you look at the again WAFA data,
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: it's like one to three percent is the average male
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: off take. So so we're already managing to a super
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: conservative harvest. So Montana does. Then the legislature comes through
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: and said, hey, we're going to to raise money for
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Montana fish wilife. Part. We're going to authorize one auction tag,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: one ravel tag, and add two. So if we can
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: go back to Sean Stewart's presentation where he's saying, hey, look,
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: even in the three to four to five unlimited areas
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: with a with a quota of two per unit, if
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: they go over one year by two or three or four,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: biologically insignificant, I'm not concerned about. So to your point,
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: we're already managing super conservatively on bighorn cheap that those
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: one to two. Wyoming's got five Nevada, you know, five
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: big worn cheap permits they authorize on auction.
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: They then have you know, they have their commissioner tags,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: but those aren't for big worn cheap. Those are ALC
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: mule deer, prong horn moose. I think there's a moose tag,
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: not not a commissioner. So you were absolutely correct that
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: these are additive. And what's what's amazing is when you
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: look at you know, and you we sold you word
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: one hundred and ninety two thousand dollars in Montana in
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. We sold the tag. We directed two
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: hundred and eighty eight thousand dollars on the auction tag
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: to fish, Wildlife and Parks. That adds to their one
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: ninety two. We did a raffle back then too. It
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: was one hundred and twenty five, so one hundred and
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: twenty five thousand for raffle. We double it, more than
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: double it for the auction tag and then add that
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: to the resident license. Still not a lot of money.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: So hit me with the hit me with the amount.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Hit me with the amount that went in the tag
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and license fees for the public draw versus.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: Like the one hundred and ninety two thousand dollars two
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: hundred and fifty and twenty twenty three for six hundred
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: and fifty six tags and then the auction tag. Then
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: we add one more auction tag. We added another two
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: hundred and eighty eight added one raffle tag one hundred
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: and twenty five. So so I guess the you know,
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: but you're you're so right. I mean, so here's the
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: here's the thing that that I guess frustrates us on
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: this side. There's not a financial argument that you can
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: make to say that it's the wrong thing to do.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: So it really is a social justice argument. And so
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: you know, I can show all the statistics that will
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: say that look uh, and you know it's additive, it's not.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: It's not you know, I'm a regular guy.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Am I going to be able to buy one of
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: these tags? Not unless I rob a whole hell of
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: a lot of liquor stores or win the lottery. But
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I'm thrilled with, and that is
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: that somebody is willing to do that, and because of
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: that money, it's offering more opportunity for regular guys and
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: regular gals like me. So you know, that's that's the
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: crux of the argument. And then I you know, when
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: we dive into the social side of it, because there
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: is it's a and it's sad. I mean, if you know,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: if I mean, I drive a twenty seventeen Toyta pickup truck.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: You know what, it works, got one hundred and fifty
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: six thousand miles on it. I drive by somebody who's
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: got one of those new GMC at four's, Boy, that
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: looks slick. Do I have to have that? Am I?
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: You know? Am I envious?
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: Well?
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It's like, well maybe one of these days.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: But my truck still pulls my trailer. I'm okay. So
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: I look at these guys or gals that are buying
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: these tags, and I'm I'm grateful because it's wildlife philanthropy.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Let me hate you with this though, Okay, one good? Okay,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: where is ten good?
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Like like, if it's if it's financial, if it's strictly financial,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: how far would you extend that logic? Like if there's
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: six hundred tags, would you start to feel uncomfortable if
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: we auctioned five hundred of them?
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: You know what you're going to have is law of
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: diminishing returns. And we saw that in Alberta where they thought,
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: you know, Alberta was you know, that's where the.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Big sheep were and so like in a very specific
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: place too.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, well yeah it was and it was Cataman,
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: you know, it was around the Cataman Mine and uh
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: and so they're basically you know, park sheep coming out
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: if they come out, or they can just hang and
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: you could sit there and every guy there's you know,
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: there's a specific rock I think it's called Hot Rock
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: or something like that that these people would literally be
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: lined from the trailhead get to Hot Rock and then
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: just wait and see if these big rams would come
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: out of the park. And it's Jasper, that's the park,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: and sometimes they would, sometimes they would, but they're big
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: sheep man. You know, the the prior hunted world record
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: was taken there and so that's where people were chasing
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: that tag, and that's where those dollars went. Well, Alberta
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: at one point thought hmm, you know, maybe we can
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: maybe we can make even more money. So they started
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: adding more and more auction tags and even even some
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: more L e H tags to that same area, and
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: then you had a hunting experience. It wasn't exactly the
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: most enjoyable. Everyone's making a bee line for Hot Rock
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: and then they're all sitting around the rock waiting, you know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: for a big sheep to come out of the park.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: So I'm being a little facetious, but that's basically so
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: you can have a law of diminishing returns. Really interesting
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: this year, Arizona last year chose their commission. That's my
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: next question.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: You're you're doing my next question.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Arizona shows.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Did Arizona get rid of Governor's Day? They did, They
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: did take it away, They.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: Got rid of Governor's tags and they're going to a raffle.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: So while Chief Foundation was given the last Desert bighorn
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: sheep tag to sell an auction unless there's a commission change,
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: and you know, I mean it's politics at this point,
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: we were also given a pronghorn anallop tag. Last year
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: we sold the Arizona tag. I think it was for
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: four hundred and twenty four hundred and I think I
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: have that data. What did we sell that tag for? Yeah,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: four thirty four hundred and thirty thousand dollars. One hundred
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: percent of those dollars go right back to Arizona. Game
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: to fish. This year we sold it for five five
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars. Crazy, you want to really go nuts.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: We sold the Arizona prong horn tag in twenty twenty
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: four for ninety five thousand dollars. A prong horn tag.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: The last one going to be on auction sold for
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars. One hundred percent of
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: those dollars go right back to Arizona Game Fish. Now
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: now it's going to go to raffles. We all know
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: that you're not going to make the same amount of money.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Organizations NGOs in Arizona boked and didn't even apply for
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: these tags, while Chief Foundation looked at it and said,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean we could. We could thump our
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: chests and go, aren't we great? You know we're selling
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: these tags are unbelievable amount of money. You're not doing
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: what we want, so we're not going to play your game.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: We didn't. We thought, no, let's have a seat at
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: the table. We'd rather be at the table and talking
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: and doing something good for wildlife. So we applied for
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: their bighorn tag and we're going to raffle that off.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: I think it sold at Arizona Desert Big Worn Sheep Society,
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: who we partner with in Arizona on the Desert Big
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Orn tag on the Arizona prong Horn tag. Arizona Desert
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: Big Worn Sheep Society sold the big Horn tag last
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: year at their their banquet in May, three hundred and fifty,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: three hundred and sixty thousand dollars. We'll probably, through a raffle,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: be able to direct one hundred and twenty five hundred
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: and fifty thousand to Arizona game fish versus the three
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: fifty or three sixty, and then you compare it to
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: the five hundred and then we get into the equity
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: of raffles. And that's that's a question I'd love to ask,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: is you know, those that think that raffles are equitable
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: need to look a little deeper dive there. A Washington
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: resident can't purchase an online raffle outside of his or
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: her state because a gambling law gambling.
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: Even is this a similar thing that we went through
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: and we both purchase we weren't physically in the state
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: of Arizona.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that was a gambling law or
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: just the rule.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: No, it's so in Washington, it's it's there. It's their
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: state Gaming Commission because that is gambling. Yeah, and you know, now,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: if you're in state, you can do an in state,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: but if we're out of state, we can't. We can't sell.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: We've Arizona got burned on this. Arizona has a super
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: teche and they've pretty much they used to sell them
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: to do it.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: You know, they did exceptionally well on those.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: They were selling them out of state. They got a
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: call from the Gaming Commission of Washington State saying, hey,
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: you're selling to Washington residence.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we sure are.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: You a great opportunity for them. We're raising money for
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: profit and they said, you're violating our state gaming laws.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: You got to refund that money. Karine and I were
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: talking about the pandemic. Wild Chie Foundation got kind of
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: clever during the pandemic. We're all fighting to figure out
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: how the hell are we going to raise money. We
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: we actually sourced out of DOA a a virtual yes,
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: a virtual expo thing rather interesting. We had to change
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: all the avatars. There were no blonde people in in
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: this uh in this expo, but that's a whole and
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: no cowboy hats, a no ball cat so you know, Brodie,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: they you know, we could not find a ball cap
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: in this uh this cutter application. But I digress a
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: little bit. But what what was really interesting is so
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: we said, okay, we're basically selling a ticket to sit
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: in front of your MacBook or your PC and watch
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: our show our auctions online. Those are easy to do.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Expo a little more difficult. And you know what. To
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: incentivize you to buy this ticket, We'll put you in
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: a drawing for a desert big one cheap hunt. Fair enough,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: you know. All you have to do is buy the
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: ticket and you're you're in the drawing and somebody is
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: going to win a desert big one cheap hunt. I
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: get a call from Washington Gaming Commission and they said, hey,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: you're you're conducting a raffle. And I went, We're not
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: conducting a row. What you know, what do you I
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: finally figured out what. I said, Oh wait a minute,
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: are are Yeah, No, you've got some registration thing. You're
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: giving away a desert big one cheaphunt. Yeah. Yeah. He said,
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: well you can't do that in Washington. You're based in Montana.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: I said, wow, Actually, we're kind of clever. We run
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: our programs for a raffles out of Wyoming. But this
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: isn't a raffle, so this is just a registration thing.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: He says, you're still breaking our gaming laws. You've been
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: there's been a complaint against you. Oh my god. Really,
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: we had. We had to refund twenty seven thousand dollars
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: in registrations we had to make to make to make
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: it at least fair to our Washington folks that wanted
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: to participate. We just said, hey, we're refunding your money
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: and if you want to attend our virtual convention you
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: can do so for free. Well that happened in it
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: the band fishing during the pandemic. Yeah, go figure. So
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: the laws are so crazy, you know, look at you know,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Montana is an interesting one. We accept on raffle checks cash,
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: debit cards, not credit cards. So if you're conducting a
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: raffle in Montana, you got to make sure that your
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: system knows that that that visa that somebody just sent
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: you was a debit card, not a credit card. And
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: we've been stung on that one. Arizona got stung their
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: super raffle got stung really really bad by Washington. So
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: now and Brody, I think you touched on it. Now
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: Arizona is only conducting their I forget what they're calling
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: it now, it's not the it's not the super tags
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: but in state. So now you have a and Steve,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: you touched on that, you know.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Now you have me got boned out of one hundred
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: bucks apiece?
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so raffles are not as equitable as they may.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: So let's back up to Arizona.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Uh, because really this decision that came out of Arizona
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: drove this whole conversation.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: I mean we've definitely, over the years, have touched on it.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I have always been like, uh, I've always been torn
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: by the issue recognizing the money, but then also you know,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: like I recognized the tremendous amount of money that goes
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: to conservation, and I also recognized the kind of populous
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: rage against like who the hell has four hundred thousand
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: dollars to buy a sheep tag? And why does he
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: get one?
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: But I don't.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I recognize both sides of this. But what really fueled
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: this renewed conversation was Arizona's decision, the commission decision, and
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: it came to a vote and they said that going
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: into the future, we're going to step away from doing
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: auction tags, Right, Like, what's your understanding of of that process,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Like what were the inputs they were looking at? Was
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: it primarily social pressure?
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: I would say it's social pressure is probably the biggest one.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: The revenue side was certainly expressed. I was actually asked
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: to do a video for their commission by the chair.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: We did. We did a six minute version, we did
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: cut it down to a three minute version. Talked about,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: you know, how much money is raised for Arizona, you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: what will happen to bighorn sheep. But you know, now
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: you look at that pronghorn two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars,
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: what will happen to pronghorn conservation? What's going to have
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: You know, is there anyone in this room that can
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: tell me that there's an agency that has too much money?
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: From a wildlife agency standpoint, you know, maybe maybe a
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: few government agencies we'd like to cut out, but you know,
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: from a wildlife agency in the United States, everyone's clamoring
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: for more dollars. You know, we need more biologists, we
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: need more trucks, we need more uniforms, we need more
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: habitat improvement, you know all of that. So it wasn't
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: a money thing, it was a it was a there
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: was some pressure from some groups that really do think
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: the raffle is the way to go because of Steven
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: exactly what you said. It's a it's a. It's an
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: envy thing. It is a polarize a thing, and we
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: see it in all walks of life, whether you know,
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: whether it's a guy that's you know, lauding and applauding,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: somebody's home in Pacific Palisades being burned because you know,
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: he or she is pursued to be rich and I'm not.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: You know, I I don't buy into that, but I
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: recognize it. You know, I recognize there's also and it's
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: been said, well, this is you know, this is a
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: this is against the North American wildlife conservation model. Shane
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Mahoney and I are really really close friends, and we
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: share a stage around the world on giving speeches and
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: the like. I used to in my presentations called the
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: you know this this auction tag, governor's tag, special permit
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: conservation permit. I used to call it a bastardization of
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: the North American egalitarian model. He said, ah, you know
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: this is, but it raises all this money I had.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: She used to say that. I used to say it,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: and I said, oh, it's a bastardization of.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: The model, but it works.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: How long ago is that Shane and I were in
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: my drift boat on the Yellowstone eight years ago. He
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: and his wife. He's, you know, say hey, let me
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: float you down the Yellowstone. You're such a busy guy.
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: Watch a fly fish a little bit, and you know,
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: typical typical Shane. He just kind of puts the rod down.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: He's looking around and then in that voice of Moses,
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: you know, great, I want to tell you something. You're wrong.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: I went all right wrong a lot every single day.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: What am I wrong? At this time? He goes, you know,
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: I've heard you on stage call this Governor's Tag Conservation
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: Permit model a bastardization of the North American model, and
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: you're wrong. I said, Well, you, being the foremost spokesperson
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: for the model, tell me why. And he says, you know,
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: one of the pillars of the model is state and
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: agency determination of how is the most efficient way for
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: them to raise money for wildlife. If a state determines
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: that a auction tag or a raffle tag, or come
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: up withever, whatever program it is, is the most efficient
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: efficient mechanism, well then that's consistent with a model. We
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: just did a permit discussion at our sheep show in
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: our full curl Cinema had Shane my EVP of Conservation
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Corey Mason, myself doing a Q and A afterwards, and
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Shane said it again. He goes, you know, this is
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: consistent with the model. The challenge is the social license
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: and Steve, it's what you said, and you cannot discount that.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: You know. I could certainly talk about a way to
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: look at it that maybe will sway some views on it,
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: but there is just a built in, you know, even
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: though it's additive, even though it's driving eighty three percent
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: of the conservation dot for wild sheep at the agency
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: level in our country, there's still this Well, so what
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I don't care about the money. It's just not fair.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: Somebody is able to buy something that I can't. Well,
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: and I guess I look at that, and I mentioned
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: the term wildlife philanthropy. You know, you look at a
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: high net worth individual and we applaud when there's a
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: name on a hospital wing because they donated a potload
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: of money to that hospital, or they donated to feeding
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: the hungry, or to the welfare of pets, or a
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: football stadium or an art museum, and we applaud that philanthropy. Philanthropy, Well, this,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, is wildlife philanthropy. Why don't we applaud.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: That because they're getting, because they would get they would
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: get universally applauded if they weren't taking the tag. If
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: some guy got up at Sheep at your at your
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: convention in Reno, and some guys said, hey, man, no
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: strings attached, I don't want ship for it. Here's five
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars from Wild Sheep in Arizona one, that'd
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: be the that'd be the response. I mean, like, if
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: you're actually asking the question, that would be why. And
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: it again, it's like.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: Building people, doesn't, doesn't, isn't isn't an accolade too?
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: And I get it it is.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: It's a mark, But I don't think like if if
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: Verizon underwrites a sports stadium as a marketing play, I
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: don't think that Verizon.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: Is applauded, No, the recognized.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: It's like it's like sort of there's a there's a
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: quid pro quo to it. It's like, yes, they're underwriting
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the sports stadium, but it's like a marketing expense. So
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: if you could somehow get into a guy's head who's
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: buying a shep tag for four hundred thousand dollars and
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: he was gonna go write the check anyway, because he
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: believes that much in wild sheep. But then like as
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: a little added perk, got a tag too. I think
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: that that would that would diminish some of the social condemnation.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: But I don't think people are looking at it. If
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: talking about people who feel burned by governor's tags, I
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: don't think they're looking at it that it was a donation.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I think they're looking at it that it was a purchase.
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: I think you're looking at the psychology of it.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they are.
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: They're certainly getting a benefit back even if they don't
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: take the sheep, And that certainly happened. I mean, I
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: you know a good friend of mine from Texas, you know,
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: back in the day in Alberta. I think he I
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: think he bought the tag. He bought it two or
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: three times and didn't take a sheep once. There was
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: another guy that was always chasing I mean since pass
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: and I think he he bought it at least three times,
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: didn't take a sheep twice. So I see your point,
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: and it's and it really had Yeah, it's to say,
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: you know, well, you know what you're getting an opportunity. Well,
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: you're getting an opportunity with no with no guarantee. And
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: I look back, you know, I look back on the
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: guy that that ended up buying that that record Montana
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: tag in twenty thirteen, because I, you know, I I
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: felt that my seven hundred and fifty dollars tag back
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: when Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks had one hundred and
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: twenty dollars in revenue coming in from me, you know
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: and others us regular folks, and they got ninety four
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: hundred and eighty thousand dollars. That my ability to hunt
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: sheep in Montana was because some crazy guy was willing
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: to spend that money. And he made an interesting comment
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: to me. I you know, I thanked him, and he says, Gray,
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: here's the deal. I give to my church, I give
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: to he he had another, He had another, you know,
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: kind of pet charity he gives to and he goes
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: and I give to wild cheap Conservation. Yes. Now does
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: he get a spiritual benefit from giving to his church?
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: You bet? Does he? You know, it's a little bit
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: more than my twenty bucks in the in the tray.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Does he get a benefit satisfaction out of giving to you?
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Know in this case they were homeless shelters or something
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: like that. Sure does he get a benefit from buying
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: that cheap tag, Yes he does, But I know I
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: did too as the regular guy. I benefited because he
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: chose to direct his philanthropy towards conservation, not a football stadium.
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: So that's a good point those.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Dude, let's change let's change course a little bit.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: In conversations with people who who are suspicious of critical
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: of auction tags, a common thing people point out is,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: and I've pointed it out myself, is that in some
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: cases you get a season that's way longer, you bet,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: like potentially three hundred and sixty five days long. Yeah,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: you sit outside of the unit thing. So Joe Blow
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: draws a tag and he might have he might have
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: an area ten by twenty miles whatever the hell smaller.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: That's his hunt unit.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: The auction tag holder can hunt any unit that's open
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: in the whole damn state, right right, And so people
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: look and they'll be like, well, why is that why
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: this amazing perk to wealth? Like even once we have
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: the tags, are like I won mine on the open
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: tag allotment.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: He bought his, but his better mind.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: And something to build on what Steve is saying, like,
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: I once listen to a conversation at a Rocky Mountain
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: Elk Foundation thing in Colorado where someone had drawn a
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: big horn ram tag and a unit where there was
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: only one tag, and he spent a bunch of time
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: scouting and there was a real big.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: One and I was gonna tell the story.
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he on his on his way in scouting one day,
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: kind of a posse of dudes are coming down the
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: trail and he's like, hey, you know. They strike up
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: a conversation. He's like, I got I drew the tag.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: I'm looking for this ram and they were basically like,
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: don't bother. Like we're we're guiding the Governor's tag guy
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: and they know when the season opened, and they're like,
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: we're going to get that thing before you ever have
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: a chance to get it. It wasn't like an impolite conversation,
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: but it Yeah.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Because he had his team of he had his team
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: of guys.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's like a social conflict.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: There, you bet, you bet, and and and that, that,
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: in my opinion, is the dirty underbelly m hm. And
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: and is something that if we are to retain the
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: social license to have these. We need to be able
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: to answer those, And I would say, right now, we don't. Well,
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: why can't you answer it this way? Because well, let me.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Provide you with a hypothetical answer. Not hypothetical, but I mean,
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: wouldn't it be if we as hunters are agreeing that
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: auctioning off a tag for several hundred thousand dollars creates
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: more sheep opportunities for everybody, potential leads to bigger, big
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: horn populations, so that there's more tags available in the
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: general draw. We got healthier sheep herds, we got healthier
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: sheep hunting. If we can make that tag even more
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: valuable and it's still only costing us one sheep, why
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: not do everything we can do to make it more valuable. Well,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: like if you said, if you action to tag off
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: and you go, you got seven days, right, all of
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: a sudden, the price is probably gonna plumb it without question,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: and so so I mean, but I feel like I'm
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: not saying that that's ultimately the answer, but that's kind
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: of how I look at it.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: Would be.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Well, if we're gonna do it, we're gonna give away
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: a sheep tag. I don't get the most money you
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: can out of the sum bitch, and if you need
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: to make the season.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Longer and that Jack's it up by one hundred thousand dollars.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, and you nailed it. And if you know,
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: going back to the prior podcast and the and the
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: title you know are Governor's tags on American? Well, no,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: it's a good title. No, you know, these conservation permits
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: and these governors tags are absolutely American because it's based
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: on subli and de man and a and a and
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: an interest in capitalistic process. Now you know that that
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: was my argument as well. It's against the egalitarian North
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: American model. Shane. Shane corrected me. But Stephen, you're absolutely right.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: But the the the dirty underbelly is perception. And and
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: if you know Arizona is a three hundred and sixty
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: five day, you know, being intellectually honest, you know, we
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: we like to give breeding populations time off. You know,
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: Now Montana hunts during the rut for mule deer, we off,
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: you know, we archery hunt in the rut for elk
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: and others typically bighorn sheep or not in the rut.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: There's some that seasons that they're there. There could be
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: certainly these these conservation permits that either are extended season
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: earlier season or any unit opens it up to going
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: right back to that social question, social license question on
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: well how come it's that much different? Well how why
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: is it that much different? Because that's what that's what
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: increases the price. Classic example is is Alberta. You know,
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: they they made which you know, some could say were
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: some mistakes, you know, back in the nineties, and they
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: were just offering too many tags. Price started to go down,
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: and they're going, jeez, you know, we used to be
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: the big dog. Now Montana is uh now New Mexico is,
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: Arizona was, I mean, it's you know, it's Colorado was
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: last year. I mean it's it's kind of amazing when
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: you when you look at you know, where the big
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: dollars are coming in on these on these conservation permits.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: But stop you does the dollar does the amount change
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: based on where the big ram is that year?
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: Without question?
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: With that of things which is which is a dirty underbelly?
• 53:24
  Speaker 5: I also ask with the fewer of a lower number
• 53:29
  Speaker 5: of available tags per state, does the number also go up?
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Probably? I couldn't, I couldn't, you know, what we're seeing
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: now is just kind of just you know, you look
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: at you look at what what. What's been really interesting is,
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of ground zero for disease has been
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: in the Tristare area, Idaho, Washington, Oregon. Our chapters in
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: the read and the agencies in the region, wild cheap
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: foundations pump millions of dollars into disease research, into kind
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: of some novel separation policies, in some draconian policies like test,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: test and remove.
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: We kind of talking pneumonia, correct.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Michael, plasma. Pneumonia is a setup agent. It's
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: a pathogen and what it what it does is it
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: can lead to ammonia. Okay. Pneumonia primarily comes from domestic sheep,
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: also domestic goats. It can be within a wild cheap population,
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: so it can be endemic once they get it from
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: a you know, from a vector a source domestic sheeper, goat. Well,
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: we've we've done collectively a pretty damn good job of
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: of At one point we eliminated Michael plasmo and pneumonia
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: from the Hell's Canyon Complex. Better lamb recruitment, big rams
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: uh big, you know, And that's just that's just healthy sheep. Now,
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: Oregon tags selling like crazy, Idaho tag selling like new
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: state records taking in Oregon, Idaho, Washington. So you know,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: there's just this dynamic.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: But the buyers are like, this is the point.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I think that it's important to getting because it's important
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: to cover, because it's part of what it's part of
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: the social conversation being one. When when an auction tag
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: comes up, oftentimes the buyer is basically buying an opportunity
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: to go get a specific sheet that he has been
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: made aware of by his outfitter. Yeah, they're like, look here,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: we got a two hundred inch ram.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: You'll get to get it before the public.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: Here, here's a dossier, here's all the photos of it.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: You buy it, you hire us, I'll guy our guys,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: will keep an eye on it, will put six seven
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: guys out and watch it. You show up, boom, it's
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: yours because we're already on it. And that burns people's ass, it.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: Does, and that and and I would call you know,
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: in that scenario, that is a dirty underbella belly. Now
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: now you've got another scenario, and but is that the tag?
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: But that but again, is that the tag's fault?
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: No, it's not. It's it's it's the it's our fault,
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: it's it's the you know, let's let's push the envelope
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: on fair chase, which we need to clean up now,
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: you know, here's here's the here's a flip side of that.
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: And I'll tell you a little bit about the guy
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: that that bought the one point three million dollars new
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: Mexico tag two weeks ago. One point three So.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: A new Mexico sheep tag went for one point three right?
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: It is that a new record, absolute new record? Is
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: he gunning for a specific sheep?
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's gunning person. But I'm going to tell you
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: a story about him. But what he said, so holy yeah,
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: one point three million.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Now at that point getting suspiciously philanthropic, so yeah, you know.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: Almost, So there there was a period of time where
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: you know, everyone was chasing very very large stone sheep.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: So the BC minister's license, which is kind of a
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: unique license because and there is a raffle tag too,
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: but there's one, there's a there's a minister's license on auction.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: There's a minister's license on raffle. The minister's license in
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: BC you can hunt they've got four you know, subspecies
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: if you will, but you know three species. They've got
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: doll sheep, stone sheep, bighorn sheep, but a bighorn sheep.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: They've got California big horn and Rocky Mountain big onorn.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, I got confused, I'm sorry.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: And so there's there's a there's a subspe species of
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: bighorn sheep called California big horn. Yeah, but who has
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: all of them? British Columbia they have those. The only
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: thing they don't have is desert. But they have four
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: four wild cheap species dolls stone dolls, and it's a
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: teeny little area up in the far northwest corner adjacent
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: to Alaska, lower part of Alaska. So they have dolls.
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: They are you know, the location for stone sheep other
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: than fanning up in the Yukon. They have California big horn.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: That's primarily.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: That's what I was unaware of, is that like on
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: thet on the west coast in the it's.
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: In the Fraser River Valley and then and then bighorn
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: sheep around Fernie and the like. So you can buy
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: that tag and you can choose, you can choose which
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: sheep you want to hunt. So you know, years past
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: it used to be the chase a big horn. Now
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: it was hey, we're gonna you're gonna be able to
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: hunt early and late for stone sheep, and stone sheep
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: was the hot item. Uh that that permit went for
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: three hundred some one thousand dollars. There was a sheep that,
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: you know, a couple of big ones that people were
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: you know, knew that we're around. This guy knew that
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: they were around. They're all killed in an avalanche. Seriously,
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: seal ave. So now let's go back to the really
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: go back to the Yeah, it's like a pile of
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: four sheep killing an avalanche, all four of the big ones.
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: It's like, hey, that ram you are chasing no longer. Congratulations,
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: that's philanthropic petition.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: For a refund. You gotta be kidding, no refund?
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: Can I? Can I?
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: I gotta explain something to folks. I'm trying to keep
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: this real one on one. Uh, just to point out
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: something obvious. The reason three hundred and sixty five days
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: a year is enticing for sheep because they don't shed
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: their antlers, which pointed out so like if you're if
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: you're hunting Elk. Let's say you're buying a governor's tag
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: for Elk, like that. Elk's gonna get maximum size and
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: get hard antlered in September, late August, early September, and
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: he's gonna drop his antlers down the road in March. Right,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: So if you had three hundred and sixty five days,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: and maybe you do, it doesn't really matter because you're
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: chasing a how many months is that September, October, November, December, January, forebr.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: You got half half the year. He's gonna have that.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: And any antlered species could just bust them up.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: That's yep.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: And he could also snap them, yeah, and and and
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of those big bowls, especially in the in
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: the desert southwest, do snap them off. So like, but
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: a sheep, I mean, by the time he's the kind
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: of sheep we're talking about, this sheep is nine years old,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: ten years old, eleven years old.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: But he's got him. He's carrying his racky around.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: You shoot him in April, he's got the same he's got,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: that's right, the same attributes as you shoot him in November.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: Their horns not antlers, so you know they they wear
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: their life on their head. So let's let's now go
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: to the gentleman that bought you know, which is now
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: the record for any any permit one point three million.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: I was visiting with him last week, thanking him. You know, wow, incredible,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: you know, how the heck did that happen? I mean,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: three hundred thousands a lot of money? One point three
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: is I like what you said, that's pretty close. Uh
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: you want to wing? You want to wing on that hospital?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: And he says, you know, I knew it was going
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: to go over a million dollars. I wanted to go
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: over a million dollars. I'm happy. You know, season opens
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: August first for me. I sure, hope a mountain lion
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: doesn't get it, but it is what it is. That's philanthropic.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: That is a guy, and he's done very very well
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: obviously in life. And crazy enough. I think there were
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: three bidders in it at one point two.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: So at one point those guys like enough is enough?
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: Just amazing. I mean you can imagine the energy in
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: the room when you see that.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Tell me about the sheep? Yeah, like, what's the sheep?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: They know?
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: Why so much of this year and not after that
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: sheep last year?
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: There's a you know, two hundred points is kind of
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: the holy Rail. And so there's there is a you know,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: there is the thought that the largest big horn in
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: North America is in New Mexico is alive right now.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: So there you go, and he's got a price on
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: his head.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: And so well, let me is that unseemly Well, I guess.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: But you know, Steve, you pointed out that, hey, if
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: the if the goal is to raise the most money
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: for the resource, well this is how we're going to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: do it. Now, we just need to make sure that
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: it's ethical, you know the view. And Brodie, I think
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: you touched on that. If there's ten guys you know,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: out on the out and they're you know, there's camping
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: on the sheep, it doesn't smell right and it doesn't
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: look right. But it's not illegal. No, it is.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: No, you're never gonna get there. You're never going to
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: enforce you're never going to create a you're never going
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: to create a secondary set of laws that someone's going
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: to have to apply to.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Let me give you for instance, me and Brody go
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: home with our little kids. Okay, some of them at
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: a certain age that they can shoot before they're like
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: terribly helpful, right, They don't know even when we leave
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: home a ten year old, they're not even really aware
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: of what direction you're Okay, So we're out with our kids.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: So and so sees a buck, he tells another growing up,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: he sees the buck. You know, we tell the kid.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: You know, you drag the kid out of their sleeping bag.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: We gotta start walking. They don't really know, right, and
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: eventually you're like there he is, get them right, Okay,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: So would someone goal that's unethical? That kid, That child
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: didn't glass, they didn't scout, they didn't glass that buck
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: up right, right, So you're never gonna get there where
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: you're gonna come in and be that operating within the
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: confines of the law, we would expect it to be different.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Meaning if I apply for twenty five years and I
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: draw a big horn tag and all my bodies at
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: work and I could see this happening, Oh yeah, all
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: my bodies.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: At work are like, oh man, what a riot?
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: And three of us go up in jet boats, right,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: and we pour the coals to it glass and for sheep.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: And one of my buddies comes into camp. He's like,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: we found a giant.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: You're not gonna be like I want to find it myself.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna wind up being like raked over the
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: coals about it.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: It would be like, no, they went up.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: But there's a thing that happens where it's like there's
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: already a finance, it's a bitterness, and then on top
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: of that, there's a.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Added bunch of.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: What seems to be like shortcut taking, right, and it
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: tarnishes the thing. But but in people's eyes. But then
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: in all fairness, like, are you really going to make
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: a separate set of.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: Game laws.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: For an auction tag holder that you wouldn't make for
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: a guy that bought a but that that bought an
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: elk hunt from an outfitter?
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: Well, they do in some cases, they do make a
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: separate set.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, they extend, they extend the season like but
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: you know, and and and that does it just it
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: gets back to this, you know, what is the public
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: perception and what's what's you know, what is the real grind?
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: And again, I you know there's organizations that are well
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: we just have to go to you know, raffle tags
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: because that's that's more equitable. Well, so then the person
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: wins the raffle tag. Is there also a team team
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: of guides that go in and what's you know, what's
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: what's the difference there? You know, I you know, and
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: there there are crazy things that have happened. I've I've
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: heard of the raffle tag winners outfitter calling the conservation
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: permit outfitter saying, I'll tell you what, if your guy
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: writes my guy a check for X amount of dollars,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: we'll let you go after that guy and we'll go
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: after a second. That to me stinks and that's almost
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: extortion and and so you know, and it's and this
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: gets back to the social thing too. You know, any
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: time that you know, a super high prices put on
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: a resource, there's going to be challenges to that know,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: and we we know it. So you know, where the
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: Wild she Foundation looks at this is, Okay, we're raising
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: the most money for a resources resource that's got challenge,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: you know, whether it's disease in the Lower forty eight,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: whether it's drought in the Southwest, whether it's super heavy
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: wet snowfalls up in Alaska. In the Yukon and dall
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: sheep are starving and in some mountain rangings we've lost
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: forty to fifty to sixty percent of the population. How
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: do we bring them back? You know, we're always looking
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: for Okay, how can we raise the most money to
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: do it? How can we put that money on the mountain?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: How you know, how are we going to fund you know,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: disease research? So we see it, we do it. You know,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: a while she foundations directed since you know that first
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: governor's tag, you know ed Hirschler's Wyoming Governor's tag. It's
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: sold for twenty three thousand dollars in nineteen eighty we
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: have put about eighty nine million dollars back into agencies
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: for wild cheap conservation just on the sale of conservation permits.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: So it's very very effective. What I think we should
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: be instead of us arguing on the well, you know
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: that guy or gal gets a privilege that I don't,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: I would like us to do a better job of
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: making sure that the dollars that are directed to the
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: agencies are going where they should. And Steve, I think
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: you asked that question early on and we didn't touch
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: on it because there's some agencies that do an exceptionally
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: good job and are very transparent of where that money goes.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: And there's some that aren't so. Wyoming Wyoming has the
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: Wyoming Governor's Big Game License Coalition. So all the you know,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: the five cheap tags, you know, any of the the
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: elk tags, any of the moose tags go into this pool,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: but they're separated out by species and then and then holders.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: You know, wyl mean Wild Chief Foundation has a seat
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: on that. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has a seat on that.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: A mule Deer Foundation has a seat on that. That
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: that coalition, the pronghorned guys, you know, all the little
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: critter groups have have a seat. They then evaluate projects
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: that are that are brought before the Big Game License
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: Coalition to say, hey, we want to fund a sage
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 3: brush habitat project that's going to benefit mule deer certainly
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: certainly sage ins uh, maybe less so on bighorn sheep. Well,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: sometimes that those stakeholder groups will go, you know, we
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: got plenty of money on the bighorn sheep pool. Let's
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: pull a little bit out and collectively we agree we're
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: gonna fun mule deer Conservation British Columbia does the same
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: thing with their Habitat Conservation Trust. You know, the monies
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: that we raise for the BC Ministry go into this pool.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: There are a group of stakeholders. Wow, Wild Chief Foundation
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: has a seat, but we we have a representative that's
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: from BC and they make decisions on where those moneys
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: are spent. Oh that's transparent, very transparent. Nevada another one
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: that does it really really well. Some of them not
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: so well and with all the challenges and can you say,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: can you give an example of a bad one or
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: is that? Is that not? Probably not a good thing
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: for me to say because we partner with all So
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: let me just talk about the good ones. But there's
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: some that could do better and the mission we can Yeah,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: we can bleep it maybe, but you know the fact
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: of the matter is, you know again I can show
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: your Wild Chief Foundation spends our dollars. I mean, we
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: do these conservation impact summaries. You know, we're we're absolutely
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: transparent agencies not so so that's something that I think,
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: you know, we as NGOs, whether it's Wild Chief Foundation,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: whether it's Mule Deer, whether it's ELK, whether it's you know,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: any of the organizations that are selling these conservation permits
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: and driving the money back to the agency. We need
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: to do a better job of holding our agencies accountable. Going, Okay,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: where is the money, where is it going? And is
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: it going to the resource that it should?
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's important. Like something you said that
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: there's not enough sheep to pay for themselves. I think
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: a lot of people don't think about it that way, right,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 4: but it makes total sense. And you like a state
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: like Montana or Colorado, you talk about elk like those
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 4: things pay for themselves and more, Right, Brody.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: I wrote a paper back in the eighties before I
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: was in the nonprofit and I was you know, it
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: was kind of the economics of Honting and at the time,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: and I don't know what it is now, but at
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: the time I was looking at Colorado. I used to
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: lived in California, drive out to Colorado to hunt elk
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: and at the time, I think non resident Colorado elk
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: tags funded like eighty percent of Colorado fishing game back then.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: Now it's Colorado Parks and Wildlife, you know, I mean
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: ELP paid the way and as we all know, you know,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: the non resident tags, you know pay the way primarily
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: you know Montana. You know, what was it sixty nine
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars, you know, sixty nine thousand dollars comes from
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: resident big worn sheep, one hundred and twenty two from
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: non resident, So for.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: A much smaller amount of tags, Yeah.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: Almost double. I mean, you know it's it's we pay
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: one hundred and what one hundred and twenty five bucks
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: for a for a sheep tag, you know, we can
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: we can buy an unlimited, you know, so we we
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: we can have that tag in our pocket. But if
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: you draw in the limited one hundred twenty five bucks,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: it's seventeen hundred and fifty for a non res you know.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: So that gets back to this this social thing and
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: Steve I, you know, I love it when you talk
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: about it because you know, look at look at what's
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: happened to our country. You know, we've we've become so polarized.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: You know, we identify with pretty asinine things. You know,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: we allow the media to fester that polarization even within
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: our own community were you know, we we identify but
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: by what rifle we use, and we criticize others that don't.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: You know, we we identify what freaking camo we use,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: and we create communities that if you're not a part
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: of it and you don't wear my cameo, you're a
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: bad guy, boots, you know whatever. We're so basic and
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: it's like.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 5: Had but we have like a name for the guys
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: who have six five.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the six need more, you know, and it's
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: a great caliber. But I mean it's you know, we've
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: taken the around the campfire arguing on whether the thirty
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: six is better than the two seventy to this level.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: It's just freaking asinine now. And so you know, we
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: fostered and now we're doing you know, we do the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: same thing on the funding, and I guess, you know,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: I would just hope that we could change the narrative,
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: you know, and and start, you know, let's deal with facts.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: You know, Okay, the facts are Auction tags bring in
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: more money than raffle tags at a far more efficient
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: way of I mean, for Wild Chief Foundation is going
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: to raffle off an Arizona big Horn Sheep tag. We
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: get zero dollars for doing but we're gonna do it.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: We're gonna we're going to pay all that money to
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: do it. We're gonna raise one hundred and twenty five
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand dollars directed to Arizona Game and fish. Well,
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: we we we held an auction. Now you know, yeah,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: that's expensive for us, but we're you know, we're four
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: nights of auction and we raised five hundred thousand, so
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: we know that it's the most cost effective is an
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: auction tag. But we still get caught up in this
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: social narrative. So what I want to really dive into,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: and that is that how how do we get beyond it?
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: How do we get be on criticizing that guy because
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: he wears Camo or we don't like his brand, or
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: that gal because she's shooting a six or five creed
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: More and we don't like that caliber. Uh to, why
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: don't we just focus again on that ram lamb or
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: you on a ridge line and go what's best for wildlife?
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: What would the big horn sheet landscape in North America
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 4: look like without this money?
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: Nailed it? Mike Draw?
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Can Mike Draw like?
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: We wouldn't have him? Right? Eighty three percent of agency
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: funding right now in the US comes from the What
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: happens when eighty three comes from an auction tag or
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: raffle tag? Most of that? What happens when eighty three
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: percent of that funding goes away? Where's it going?
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 5: To come from question, do we have over time, let's say,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 5: the past ten years, from states that have sheep the
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 5: amount of money, let's say, collectively across these states from
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 5: licenses both in state and out of state, and if
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 5: that has gone up over the past ten years or
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 5: gone down as a sign of general hunter commitment to conservation.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: Of absolutely on Now are you are you saying total?
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: You know, because we all know that revenue is generally
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: going down because generally hunting numbers are going down. Yes,
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: we saw during the pandemic a bump up. Yes we
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: see a you know, the largest percentage of new hunters
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: or women is you know, is that a significant percentage
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: of the current You might be able to argue it,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: but it's significant. But here's the sad fact, and this
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: gets back to impact. I can show you a nice
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: linear upward trend on dollars going into wild sheep conservation.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 5: Collectively, cross okay, collectively, But the percentage of that that is.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, auction tex right, ten percent increase over the last
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: ten years. It was seventy three percent in twenty fourteen,
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: eighty three percent in the US. In so a ten
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: percent increase in auction tag revenues going.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 6: To the agency and then and licenses, licenses not so
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 6: and that you know that, you know that you could
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 6: get US Fish and Wildlife Service data and you know,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 6: again there's been slight increases and then it kind of
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 6: plateaus and then dropped.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: My concern is there's a linear growth in revenue going
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: to wild sheep conservation sadly over the last say five
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: years or so because of huge die offs in Alaska
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: and the Yukon some diofs during disease, you know, from
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: in Texas. I mean Texas had eighteen hundred desert big
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: horn sheep five six years ago a little over five
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: hundred now, all because of disease from odd AD. You know,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: there's forty thousand plus odd AD in the state free ranging.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: I'm not even talking about behind wire and we've gone
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: from eighteen hundred desert big horns to less than six hundred.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: That scares the shit out of me. And so you know,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: I the point there is it gets back to impact
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: and what are we doing with it? And are we
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: holding the agencies accountable we can drive this money to them.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: Are we getting the bang for our buck? And that's
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: for all of us to work on to ensure that
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: we are and and money isn't everything. I mean, it's
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: certainly a driver, but we have to make sure that
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: we're doing as much as we possibly can effectively with
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: the money. If we know what to do, how are
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: we gonna deal with snowload in March April and Alaska?
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know, you know that, I don't know you know.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: I mean it gets back to even some crazy ideas.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: We grow desert big worn sheep. We've done it in Texas.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: We've done it in Arizona. You just by putting water water,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: but we've actually, we actually intensively managed them in Texas
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: to bring them from zero to eighteen hundred to two thousand.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: We did the same thing in Arizona.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: I mue like with with release, with using release.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: Sits captive bread and release done in Mexico. Literally grown them.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 3: We've grown them. Sonora is about fifteen thousand desert bighorn
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: sheep in the state of Sonora alone, fifty percent of
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 3: or behind wire. We have an initiative to say, hey, look,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 3: you know, let's use market forces to incentivize you to
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: release them, and not a put in take scenario, but
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: release them and create free ranging desert, big worn, cheap
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: and suitable habitat. And we've got we've got great examples
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: of people doing it. They're doing the same thing in
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 3: cool Wheela, they're doing it in Sierra Leone, they're doing
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: it in Chihuahua. So we can do it with desert,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: big worn sheep, with some caveats or some there's some
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: challenges to it. You know, this is a you know,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: this isn't you know, raising whitetails in Michigan. But it
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: can be done. Is that something that we could do
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: in the northern climes. I don't know, but you know,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: you have a forty to fifty percent drop in doll sheep.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: You've got probably a ten to fifteen to twenty percent
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: drop in stone sheep populations for a whole variety of reasons.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: It's not over harvest, you know, it's more environmental factors
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: or disease. What are we going to do? I'll tell
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: you what we need.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: And this is a whole other episode.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: I think if someone came in and proposed in Alaska
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: doing like captive breeding.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: Juice to juice doll shoot numbers, I think that that
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: would be like, uh, you know, you'd have a bigger
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: controversy on your conservation tags and your question like, how
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: do you find peace with it? There's a thing with
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: There's a thing in rhetoric that I've just that there's
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: an observation of mind when it comes to debate and
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: rhetoric that I've pointed out a handful of times around
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: conversations having to do with with the impacts of a
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: of a border wall, okay, between US and Mexico, and
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: when there's talk of building an impenetrable barrier between the
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: US and Mexico to to try to get a grip
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: on illegal immigration. There's this thing you bring up that
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: one would bring up. You'd say that would be detrimental,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: that would be detrimental to wildlife. Move so jaguars desert
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: big horns, right, Okay, that's like that's a thing to consider.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: Now someone can bring up, Hey, let's consider this.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: And people that.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: Are like vehemently supportive of a wall would be angry
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: that you brought it up, right, They'd be like, well,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: you haven't lost your job, okay to an illegal immigrant.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: So they're angry that you're laying out all the facts
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: for consideration. But in your own family, if you're proposing like, hey,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: should we go on vacation to spring. In that conversation,
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: someone can say, well, you realize if we go on
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: vacation this spring, that's going to mean that we are
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: going to forego painting our house because it costs money. Now,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: the person that brings that up isn't attacked. It's like
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: you're all airing the pros and cons, right, and then
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: you come to an agreement. All the pros and cons
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: can considered. We come to an agreement even though it's
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: going to be detrimental wildlife movement, it is net positive
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: to make an impenetrable barrier between the US and Mexico.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: Let's say, or even though we'll fore go painting our house,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: we're determining it's a net positive that we go on
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: to family vacation. I think ultimately answer might be arrived
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: at similarly around auction permits, it'd be like it's imperfect,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: it's imperfect. One could argue that by auctioning off a tag,
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: we're removing a we're hypothetically removing a sheet from the pool.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: That's not perfect.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: The individual might use some hunting methods that aren't available
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: to everybody else. That's imperfect, but net net, all things
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: weighed in, the money is worth it. Like, that's probably
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: the best you're going to do. Like, I don't think
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: you're going to get it to where some guy reads
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: online that someone bought a tag for one point three million.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: I don't think you're going to get it where one
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: hun or one percent of the hunters are. You're never
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: gonna get there, Right, it's gonna be that. Like the
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: general sentiment is, eh, hate them rich guys, but uh,
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: but that's a shitload of money for big horns.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and and in the.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: Long run, it's probably gonna mean more tags.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: Right, there's one, there's one more net positive impact. And Steve,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: you're right, you're you're absolutely spot on. There is another
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 3: little thing that we have in this country that's not
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 3: in others, which is the Pittman Robinson Act. And these
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: these tag purchases are non federal dollars, so they're they're
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: subject and eligible for a three to one match with
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: p and R Act. So you know, we can we
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 3: can draw you know, we can send one point three million.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 3: I you know we're gonna we're gonna get ten percent
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 3: of US one hundred and thirty. You know, one point
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: three minus one hundred thirty thousand dollars. We send that
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: to New Mexico Game and Fish they can apply for
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: three to one match from P and R act dollars
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: for wildlife frustration and turned that into you know, a
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: five million dollar bump. So, yeah, it is imperfect. It works,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: and I guess until we find something that works better,
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: well why don't we live with what does work? And
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: it has worked really really well from nineteen eighty and
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: the dollars are there, and argue over what calibers better
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: or what camos do you wear?
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: That's a little bit more, you know productive.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: I think one of the one of the final points
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: we had arrived at when we had this conversation.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: Was a sense of.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: You know, a sort of a sense of hope or
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: a call to action that people would.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: Open their checkbooks.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: Up, open their card balances up to support raffle tags,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: and that you would arrive at a point where these
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: raffle tags were netting equal to or more than auction tags.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: And I think you kind of touched on this early.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: But if we you don't think we're there not yet.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: But you know, we during our during the seminary, there
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: was a guy adamant on, Well you know are you
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 3: are you working on it? Well, yeah, we are. We
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: looked at we looked at our raffles that we do
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 3: at the convention, and you know, we were selling forty
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: dollars tickets. Okay, we could not physically sell enough tickets
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: in three day of expo to cover the costs and really,
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 3: you know, really really make a profit if you will,
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 3: which our profit goes right back into sheep conservation on
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 3: doing it that way. So we you know, we we
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: played the capitalists again. We go, okay, well we're going
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 3: to sell these not for forty dollars, We're going to
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: sell a thousand tickets at two hundred dollars, and for
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: the stone Sheep, we're going to sell five hundred tickets
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 3: at five hundred dollars. Is that too much? I think
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: we figured out that it was. But you know, we
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: increased our raffle take. So what I pointed out in
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: this in this seminar.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: That helped the raffle take big time, big time, that
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: that's five bucks a pop. Isn't getting it?
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 3: Can't you can't process, you can't process enough. And you know,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: forty dollars stuff, We couldn't. We couldn't sell enough physically
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: in three days to make it really profitable. You know
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: what you want to do is you want a keystoneer.
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: You want to double your money on each one of
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 3: these things. Well, you know, very very rare these days
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: for anyone to donate. There's a few, but donate a
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: sheep hunt. You know you've got stone sheep hunts now
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: selling for one hundred thousand dollars, big worn sheep hunts
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: selling for one hundred and ten doll sheep used to
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 3: be you're talking about, yeah, forty five thousand dollars. So
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: you know, on a doll sheep hunt, we need to sell.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: We need to make you know, we need to sell
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 3: at least one hundred thousand dollars worth of tickets to
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: double our money a stone sheep if we're buying it
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 3: at face value, we got to sell two hundred thousand dollars.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 3: So you know, we went to a different way. As
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: I said in our seminar, if we can figure out
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: a way to do it again, let's be intellectually honest.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: If our goal is to raise the most money, if
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: we can find a way to raise the most money
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: with a raffle. We'll do it because the objective is
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: to raise the most money for the resource and for
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 3: the habitat. Can you can you.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: Humored this question for ment? Yeah, the one that just
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: went for one point three million? Right, walk me through?
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: What would what would have happened? Walk me through if
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: you had done a raffle in your mind the best
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: way to do a raffle from your learnings?
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: What would have what would that sheep tag have generated? Well,
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: that was a big horn. So we we sold a
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 3: big horn in Alberta. We bought the tag for eighty
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: eighty thousand eight. It's a hunt, it's not a tag.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: I mean we actually bought an outfit at hunt for
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 3: eighty thousand dollars and our objective was to sell two
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars worth of tickets and net one hundred
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: and twenty. Okay, so you know, if we pay the
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: outfit or eighty, we net one hundred and twenty. You know,
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: theoretically we could direct one hundred and twenty thousand dollars
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: into Big or Chief Conservation. We're you know, we're going
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 3: to direct one point three million dollars. But what if
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: you take but just take it I mean, I can't
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: figure out how to get a one point three million
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: out of a raffle unless it's take a nationwide lotto.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: But take a stab that, not the hunt, not the
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: guided hunt, but take a stab that had there been
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: a raffle. Just in you're just the best year because
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: you're probably more qualified to answer this imperfect question than
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: anybody else on the planet. Had that been a raffle,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: that tag, that New Mexico tag, had that been a raffle,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: what would it have brought.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 3: In to two hundred and fifty thousand things?
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yikes, yeah, really yeah, yeah, because you've done
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: a bunch of raffles.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 3: We do a lot of raffles. But you know, I
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 3: mean we could probably two hundred you know, maybe you know,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 3: if if you if, if you could get people, Hey,
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: this is the biggest sheep in North America. This is
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: what it's going to be. How long are you going
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 3: to run the raffle? You know? I mean my hip
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: pocket is two undred fifty three hundred thousand. Could we
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: get a half million?
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: Maybe that becomes a little obscure though, Yeah, how many
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: notifying raffle buyers about this?
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: That's the biggest biggest sheep in the world.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, yeah, I can see you're getting a
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: real call from the Washington Gambling Commission a.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: Point and oh, by the way, Washington residents, Hawaii residents,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 3: you know, if we were going to draw this is
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: a funny one in Nevada, If we were going to
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: draw the hunt in Nevada, Nevada residents aren't eligible to
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: do it online. They have to buy it there. So
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: I mean the laws or Pennsylvania's got crazy laws. I mean,
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: everyone's got interesting laws. We run our raffles. When we
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 3: do a raffle, we run it out of Wyoming. We
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 3: have an office in Wyoming. We run our raffles out
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 3: of Wyoming because it's a little bit more generous on
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: the our little liberal I guess you could say on
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: the on the raffle laws. But we you know, we
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 3: have run a foul on Washington and got called out
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: on it. We've run a foul even in Montana, where
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 3: one of my employees was trying to do the right thing.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 3: She thought by well, shoot, you know, I'll just if
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: you want me to run your card right now, I'll
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: just run it right now. She didn't know it was
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: a credit card, not a debit card. I then got
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: a phone call saying, hey, one of your employees. I'm
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: with the Montana Department of Revenue. One of your employees
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: just did an illegal raffle purchase for me. And I went,
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: you know, now, do the right thing. Get burned. But
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: you know, those are the things we're up against. But
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 3: there we go. Yeah, it's good talking about this. Yeah,
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 3: this is I you know, I appreciate it. I'm honored
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: to be on the program. I really appreciate, you know,
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: listening looking at the facts. What we have to really
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 3: look at is is the why. You know, why is it?
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: Why is it? Deep down inside we're envious of some
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: you know, something that somebody else can buy that we can't.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: And that's really what the nut cutting comes down to,
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 3: you know, it's just this, Uh that's human nature. So
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 3: all we can do is provide the facts, do our best,
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: focus on the resource, and be open to ideas. Come
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: up with a better idea of how to find it.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: We're all ears.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I can see that if someone if some
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: mathematician came to you and said, uh.
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: Gray, that that tag should have brought.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: Three million by my formula.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: You would take.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: The call.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: I would all right, I appreciate you coming on, thank you.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: I appreciate Joe, thank you. People can uh buy a
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: raffle ticket? Perhaps next year you've been reno, you can
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: you can buy?
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 3: Uh? Will will you have raffles that we're offering online
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: all the time, so are our chapters. We try to
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: bay obviously all the laws. But uh, you know, if
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 3: you look at if you look at cheap hunting right
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: now and how expensive it is, raffles are the best
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: deal going from a from a number standpoint, from an
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: odd standpoint, so you know, get in all the raffles
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: you possibly can, you know, and then also treat it
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: like a portfolio. Put some money away every month to
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 3: buy that cheap hunt someday.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: You know, I forgot to mention you're the CEO of
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: Wild Cheap Foundation. Mentioned that, and then and tell people
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: real quick if they want to get checked out on Wildsheep.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: What's the best approach? Yeah, come, We're we're based here
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: in Bozeman, World Headquarters. But go to Wildheapfoundation dot org,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: Wildcheapfoundation dot org and you can see what we do.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 3: Last year, we directed eleven point one dollars to programs
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 3: benefiting wild sheep. Pretty impressive for an organization with only
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 3: eleven thousand members. So is that right? Yeah, you know,
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 3: we're I like to say that, you know, we we
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 3: may have a relatively small footprint, but we cast one
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 3: hell of a long conservation shadow and we're proud of it.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 3: Great man, Thanks again, Thanks a lot to David. Appreciate it.