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The Leadership Secret Nobody Talks About: Be More Human · Radiant Voices

• speaker-0: Inspiration really is a core component because we do things because we're motivated to do it. We have to have a reason to be able to get behind something. And so what happens when you're inspired to do something, you actually want to do it. And so think about the language these I get to do this first. I have to do this. If I have to do it, you know, I don't really enjoy doing it. And so I'm not really gonna unleash that muscle that again invites creativity and and that leads to to innovation and high performance. speaker-1: Welcome everyone to another episode. I'm really excited to have Dr. Sherilyn Payne with me today. She is a leadership speaker and an executive advisor, and she brings incredible skills. She advises high-stakes leaders and high-stakes organizations, and she supports and develops leadership. And I think we're going to have an extraordinary conversation today. I love the her work and I'm fascinated by the kind of strategic advisory work that she does. So huge welcome, thank you for being with me today. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. I'm absolutely excited and delighted. speaker-1: So you work in the high altitudes of C suite thinking and strategic thinking. And I just wanna tee off with what does it look like and feel like as one does an arc from beginning a career to moving towards an inter C suite? What changes, what does one need to embody to become a C suite leader? speaker-0: that's a great question. You know, I'm gonna say mindset. I think that's the most important thing is believing that you can be a C-suite leader. So many people think, I can never achieve that, or they're so much smarter than I am. And that's really not the case. It's opportunity, seizing opportunities, building relationships, but having the mindset that absolutely I can sit in the C-suite and going for it. speaker-1: Beautiful. And what does one do to develop that kind of mindset? Are we stuck with the mindset that we were born with? Can we nurture it and cultivate it? speaker-0: No, you're not stuck with the mindset that you're born with. Absolutely, you can nurture and cultivate it. One of the things that I advise every professional as well as leader to do is to really work on your mindset and your thinking every single day. So adopting, we've heard about growth mindset, but really believing that you truly can grow and investing in yourself every single day for a minimum of I'm gonna say 15 minutes. I really like to say an hour, but if you invest an hour, just think about where you will be. A year from now, you will be light years ahead of everyone else, and you will absolutely begin to stand out because of your thinking, the way that you think, the way that you speak, the way you see things. But more importantly, it's the journey of who you become along the way. And you can see your own growth, especially if you dash in a little bit of reflection. speaker-1: That's really, really beautiful. Yeah. So 15 minutes to an hour and a commitment to showing up and not stopping. And in the process, hopefully overcoming that imposter syndrome that you're describing. I think most people, including folks listening to this podcast, will be familiar with feeling I'm not enough and comparing ourselves to others. And often when you look at people in positions high in corporate or simply in the public eye. They've developed this kind of polish and poise, and you think, well, I'm not like that. I could never be like that. But they all had to start somewhere. So I'd love to kind of dive back a little bit and say, how did you become? Where did you come from? What is your do you have an origin story? How did you become a a high-powered corporate executive, consultant, and a change maker, and someone who supports executives to become powerful, authentic leaders? speaker-0: Well, thank you for what you said about me. I didn't see myself that way. So I appreciate that. Well, I would say it really started with my background is I actually started in Memphis, Tennessee in education. And I knew that there was more for me. I was at the time was an apprenti was a principal and knew that I'm here to make a greater difference in a different way. One of my core tenets is responsibility and accountability. And if anyone who's in education, you understand that there's a constant War going on with accountability as well as responsibility and how we hold students and teachers, you know, accountable. So I ended up leaving there, but I never left my foundation and my core of who I was. I grew up in a faith-based household, went to church every single Sunday. And It's a largely a part of who I am because of that responsibility and the accountability and stewardship. And I fell in love with this idea of being a good steward and what does that actually look like? And I began to apply those principles in corporate America when I made that transition. And it was really easy to be able to take something, build it, and then be able to talk to the leadership about here's why we need to do this, or here's what happens if we don't do this. And I think just by sheer language. Of growing up in a church every single Sunday and sometimes during the week, I learned how to sell a story. Because if you're familiar with any great speaker, powerful speaker, and a leader, they are always casting vision and they're always sharing with you on what you need to do differently and what happens or what life could be. And so in the workplace, I began to just take those same principles unknowingly, and that's what led to my success. And so I just started to pay attention to what people were saying. Now, one of the fundamentals I didn't share with you is coming from Memphis, Tennessee, my pastor of the church that I grew up in actually walked with Dr. King. And so when you think about vision and movement and how do you inspire a movement that people are talking about years later, you got to really connect with the heart. And so that's what I began to really focus in on is connecting with the heart, the mind, and the spirit. It's one thing to have. the strategy it's a whole different thing to get people to rally behind that and execute. speaker-1: Ooh, that's so powerful. There's so many things I want to talk about from what you've shared. I'm gonna go back a little bit and I would love you just to go a little bit deeper into what you mean by stewardship. speaker-0: Yes, Jeremy. So I truly believe the leaders have been entrusted with something. You've been entrusted with people. You've been entrusted with vision. You've been entrusted with budgets. You've been entrusted with strategy. You've been entrusted with lives. And so what do you do with that information? What do you do with what you've been entrusted with? You have a choice. You can actually be a good steward. And if you're a good steward, you multiply people, you multiply revenue, you increase and create the space for creativity and innovation. So there is a return, a positive, what I like to say, a net positive return that we can look back and say, because Jeremy was in the space, because Jeremy was the leader. We're so much better. We're so much stronger. I go to my family. And I have the energy, not because I've worked all day and I've given my best, but because Jeremy inspired me to believe that I can and do something better and I'm more connected to the work. So I can show up fully for my family in such a way that leaves my husband or my wife or my children or my cousins, whatever the case is and friends, inspired to do their best as well. I can invest more in the things that actually matter because of what Jeremy did at work. He invigorated and unlocked. unleash something powerful inside of me. Or we can leave people depleted. And when they're depleted, we know what happens then. They're not giving their best. They're not creative. They are lacking. They're not being good stewards of The resources of the organization, they're wasting time. They're not giving their insights when it's time to weigh in on something, when it's time to I'll give you example of being a vendor manager, so to speak. And so if you're a vendor manager, are you allowing the vendor to slack? Are you allowing the vendor to not deliver on the resources for the company? Are you not negotiating the best deal that you possibly could on behalf of that organization because of how you are treated in the workplace? So This idea of stewardship matters because you have a responsibility, in my opinion, to return a positive return. And it must be multiplied. It cannot just be, okay, well, Jeremy gave me $2 and I got back $2. No, you did okay. But reality is, is Jeremy, if we gave you $2, could you get back us $3? Could you get back $4? You know, can you multiply? What's the resources that are actually in your hand? And it really requires you to go back to thinking. It goes back to all right, am I making the best decisions? Am I thinking about now or am I thinking about now as well as long term? That's what a good steward does. speaker-1: That's beautiful. And I I get the idea from what you're saying that on the one hand, you're talking about leadership from a persuasion point of view. In other words, you've got to lead and inspire, but persuasion can often sound like you're just selling. And there's a layer of authenticity or integration or ethics that are woven into it. Can you talk a little bit about this balance between inspiring classic persuasive leadership? and having quality and ethics and heart. speaker-0: Absolutely. So you know you can be inspired by a number of different people. But inspiration really is a core component because we do things because we're motivated to do it. We have to have a reason to be able to get behind something. And so what happens when you're inspired to do something, you actually want to do it. And so think about the language they say, I get to do this first. I have to do this. If I have to do it, you know, I don't really enjoy doing it. And so I'm not really gonna unleash that muscle that again invites creativity and in that leads. to innovation and high performance. But when you are inspired to do something, when I think about hearing the United States President Obama. Whether you like him, whether you hate him, whether you're a Democrat, whether you're a Republican, the only reason why he won that election and was and was re-elected was because he unleashed something in the people where they were inspired. And they still talk about President Obama and former First Lady Michelle Obama in terms of inspiration. When we talk about Bill Clinton or Oprah Winfrey, some of the greats Michael Jordan, you know, whoever, LeBron James, Kobe, they inspire. Inspire us. And so that inspiration sells tickets. So it's directly connected to revenue and what you get back compared to when people are uninspired. For example, we look at our recent election in the United States. Did they go to the polls? not necessarily so. And so when you think about the people, and I can normally predict an election, and the people who are close to me know I can tell you, nope, they don't inspire people, they're not gonna win. And even with you know, President Trump, people can say a number of things about him. like he unleashes something inside of you whether it's love hatred you know the belief that you can be successful or the belief that you can't but whatever it is that emotion is i think what we're looking for and that connectedness to who we are and truly what we believe and so when you have the leader who doesn't inspire They just tell you the information and think that you have to do it because they said so that no longer works today with where we are. People are online with social media and AI all the time. And so they're looking for that rush, I would say. And that rush is what allows them to show up in a different way and believe that they can contribute something possible. And that's what we want because that's gonna, that's what's gonna get us our performance. It's why we love coaches and the underdogs, right? The under the teams that we know are not necessarily predicted to win, but we want them to win because they unleash hope that we are the underdog and that we can achieve something ourselves. speaker-1: That's so inspiring. So how do we inspire people at that level practically? What do we do? speaker-0: Absolutely. So again, it's your communication skills. It's what you embody, and it's what you believe. And Jeremy, one of the things I love to talk to leaders about is the power of conviction. When you marry credibility, people can believe in Jeremy. We love who you are. We love what you stand for. You do what you say you're gonna do. You have the background and the knowledge to take us far. We're already bought in. Now add a little bit of language and authenticity to that and see what you actually get. When we know what you stand for, and you begin to speak about your convictions, that's inspiring to people. When you begin to share what you have overcome, then people feel connected to you, and that inspires something in them. And then here's the thing: Jeremy, when you can begin to look at people and see them for who they are. not who they're not. And that's a little bit of difference in leadership. So often we have leaders who give us feedback and it's really easy to tell us what we're doing wrong or where we need to improve or what's next. But taking the time to slow it all the way down and to let Jeremy know here's what I love and most appreciate about you. And it comes from the heart. I would like to see you do this and you get to know that person. And so you're connecting with them. That's inspirational, especially as you're sharing your story and you're honoring the past and what we've overcome, how you contributed, and what we can do together. speaker-1: That's so good. Yeah, it's so powerful. Folks who watch this podcast are often looking to put their voice out into the world, but often that's accompanied by anxiety. And what I think you're putting forward is a model for a way of voicing in the world that is empowering, authentic, and inspiring at the same time. Let's talk for a moment about being authentic. So practically I think you you've you you've almost leaned into a few things like story or rev talking a little bit about your passion or your meaning or what's really real or true for you. How do you go about sharing your values and your passion and your story in a way that persuades and inspires people? speaker-0: great question. One of the things I love when leaders do, especially when they first join an organization, is they share the human side. It's so easy to talk about vision and where we're going and what the goal is. But when you allow people to just to get to know you and that you are a real person, you have real concerns, you have real fears, I think that does something. For the audience, the team members, the employees, to feel like, okay, now I have the capacity and the capability to be able to share a little bit more of who I am as well. And so when we think about all of these different ways that we communicate, we communicate in team meetings. Do you open up about how you really feel about something? Or are you stoic and you never share about your concerns and your fears, your family and your needs? needs and why you need to be off or what you're gonna do with your time off. You know, all of those things allow people to buy into you. And that's the way that things get done, right? They get done because we believe in who you are. And so using those opportunities, those team meetings to think, I would say more presidentials, just slow it down a little bit and remember we have the organizational politics and everybody likes to play the game. But think about the town hall In the town hall, you're kissing the babies and you're shaking the hands. You're out in the community and it's one by one building those relationships. And I think we lose that. We're so busy getting stuff done that we forget the human element and how we can get more done if we were to simply just s make people feel seen and heard. I remember years ago when I was in Memphis and I was that principal, assistant principal. And I was working at a school. And at that time, I was at this particular school of the story I'm sharing about, sharing with you about, I was a teacher there. And at that school, everybody wanted to get to this school. Now it wasn't in the best of neighborhoods. They didn't have wasn't an optional school, magnet school, or anything like that. But people would come from all around the city to enroll their children in this school because my mom went to the school. My you know, it's a it's a legacy, right? Everybody in the family wants to go to the school, but When I got to work with the principal to see why did he have a low turnover rate? Why did he have high attendance? And especially when you think about where this school was located, it was because he did a few simple things. Every single day he walked around and said good morning to the teachers and the students. Every day. Every day he inspired you to believe of the reason why we are here. It's for the students. Every single paycheck, payday, he handed out the paycheck as if he had personally signed it. And this was a large school district. It was those little things showing up for the family reunion if you invited him, showing up for the funeral, showing up if you were in the hospital, those things that made the parents and the teachers feel connected. So when he got ready to retire, He couldn't retire. They didn't let him. They had a new superintendent who came and she insisted: just give me one year to study under you. Give me one year to learn from you. And I want to replicate this throughout the district. And it was just him sharing his story. You know, I was jogging and I got shot. I was a principal coach and I was, you know, really good at connecting with the students. And that's how I became an assistant principal. And because of that, I used those same principles and became a principal. I've had the Opportunity to go to the board and be in a board position, but it would take me away from the work that I do best that's most meaningful. So people began to connect with him in his story because he was vulnerable. He was authentic. And I think we have the opportunity to do that as well. We just got to find ways to sprinkle that in here and there. speaker-1: Music to my ears. Absolutely musical. Yeah, it's incredible the the power of authenticity. And I think people when they have imposter syndrome and they're gently trying to climb the ladder but not really believing that they have value or that they're enough, they often think that the primary skill is to be able to sound more confident, to speak data more clearly, to have all the facts. And what you're speaking to is the ability to be human and to let people in and the confidence to take up space while being human. And it's almost counterintuitive. We think we have to be a kind of communicating laser, and maybe that can come too, but the ability to lean into our humanity and share that and create bridges and create trust is just extraordinary. And I I think the stories that you shared here are are so powerful. So, so powerful. Thank you for that. So, if you were to describe what the best leaders that you've seen, the best communicators in the most powerful positions, what do they feel seem like? What do they embody when you when you walk into a boardroom situation and they sit there? What do you see? That's kind of common about that. speaker-0: That's a great question. The ones that are really good are relaxed, they're calm. They are human and vulnerable. They're laughing. They're joking. They are sharing, telling stories, and just being real, I like to say. And then you have the others, and they have this persona, this facade. They have to, they've learned that to be a professional, you have to, you know, like you said, sound the part. You gotta look the part. And it's quite different. The ones who people enjoy working with in the organizations where people have done their very best and the organization is is performing. I remember working at an organization and there was this leader who came in and he was quite stoic. You know, he'd been in the military. This was his first run as a CEO, and he was really stoic. And during those board meetings, they would be really intense with him. But then once he began to we began to work a little bit more, he began to feel more comfortable with the team. He showed up differently. Now, I don't know if he had another coach or something else, but he just showed up quite differently. You can tell with the comfort level. And he could see you. He would see me across the hall or you know at the cafeteria. He's like waving profusely, and people are like, what is going on? We cannot believe him. You know, it was shocking for people because it was just not who he came across, how he came across in the very beginning. But I believe he began to take note of the reason why some of the other leaders who were in his cabinet, so to speak, why they were well respected. They were the ones who were just talking. You know, it sounded as if they were just talking to you directly, one on one. They didn't show up with the fear. I know my information, I know my stuff, I got my team data here, and I can explain it because I know this and I don't have to be something that I'm not. And that just makes everybody feel at ease. Especially when you're not with people who have to prove something. Because those people who feel like they have to prove something, my gosh, you can be cutthroat and really stressful because they're trying to counter what it is that you're saying instead of really going ahead and having the meeting before the meeting so we can get all of this worked out. So when we have the meeting, we can show up as our very best, be relaxed and kind of move through what we need to move through and make the decisions that need to be made. speaker-1: Yeah, that's such an awesome description of a a grounded, embodied, relaxed leader. I I work with a often highly anxious speakers and we do the journey of becoming calm, becoming grounded, which really can be a a mindset issue, but very frequently also a big nervous system issue, and working with the nervous system to be grounded and present. And of course, the moment we feel grounded, present, and relaxed, our sense of humor comes out, our humanity comes out, and our brain. kind of switches online and we can access our memory properly, access our knowledge. You know, if we're highly anxious, it's really hard to think smart. So I'm curious, do those kind of leaders that are very relaxed, how do they also command deep respect? speaker-0: That's a great question. I'm thinking of my favorite leader that I've advised and worked with. And I'll never forget when he got ready to leave the organization. He was offering an opportunity that was not very appealing to him, so he made the decision to leave and go somewhere else. And here was the fear of the organization, the leader who came behind him. She had actually watched his leadership for years and felt intimidated by it. And so she actually issued a cease and Assist to his new company, that he could not take anyone from the current company with him because she knew that people followed him. He was a leader that people wanted to work with him. They followed him all across the world. And so that had been, you know, just the thing, right? But I could see having work with him because he was calm. He did, you know, push you to become your very best. And here's the thing, he was an organizational psychologist as well. He pushed you to become your very, very best. You know, challenge the thinking of leaders, challenge their position, you know, hold your own when you're interacting with them and you're advising them. But I think he was just a calm person all the time because he knew this is the work. We are not in the hospital, you know, no one's here on the table. We're not doing brain surgery here. So we're gonna give it our very best. I'm gonna create the culture where people can do their very best. I wanna be authentic. I value that. And so he gave awards based upon that. You know, are you able to challenge? Are you able to inspire? How do you actually lead? How do people enjoy working with you? So he created awards the or rewards and awards rather that Really mirrored his core values and what was important to him. And as such, you didn't really see that you were talking to a leader in the C-suite who would absolutely challenge you and hold you accountable. I'm talking to my friend, I'm talking to someone I respect. And he treated everyone on the team, no matter their position, the same way. And so you began to see the leadership. As your friends, your colleagues that you well that are well respected, not someone who is against you. And so that I think the dynamic there made it as such that you weren't really, I would say, introducing that angst on a regular basis. You were able to be calm, but because the team was a high-caliber team, you knew you had to bring it because they would challenge you. speaker-1: That sounds very powerful, like a real combination of soft and powerful power. So in other words, an abil an ability to embody power in a way that's highly constructive, that is ethical, and that inspires all the people working for him or her. So you've got this ethical, warm, human leadership, totally inspiring. How does a person like that have the hard conversations and deal with conflict? speaker-0: my gosh. You know, he would spot on. He would have no problem with this particular leader, would have no problem with asking you to come to his office and just ask you the question, hey, I got feedback that you da da da da da da. I heard that you XYZ. What happened there? And so getting your side of the story and then just sharing it. Okay, I need you to make it right or I need you to do XYZ next. But it was not running from the conversation. Again, when you're hiring a team of high performers and you know the are this is high caliber top talent right so you're working with the a team They're not perfect though. So you're going to, and if you want to be the best, you have to be willing to call them out and address it, no matter if they're the star player. I love with Phil Jackson, it doesn't matter that you're Kobe Bryant. On this team, this is how we do it. And if you want to be on this team, this is the expectation. And so you give people a choice, but I think it's just simply addressing it head on, not running from it, having that conversation. What happened because there are always three Sides of a situation, your side, the other person's side, and then there's the truth. And so you cannot jump to conclusions. And what I appreciated about him is he never jumped to conclusions. You know, it was always we're having a conversation. And here's the thing when I go back to my history, and people say that I do really great at confronting things and people and calling them out. But I think it went back to what great leaders do and Martin Luther. King Jr. and that history of that pastor who walked with him and worked with him, of understanding that we have to call out what is injustice. We call out what is not correct. And we do that from the lens of I'm your friend. And so if we keep that, I am your friend, and I want the very best for you. I want the very best for us. I want to see, I say this all the time. I want to see us win. I want to see us win big, and I want to see us win consistently. And so if you have that lens and I show up. that way on a regular basis, then you understand as your friend, I'm obligated to say something to you. If I'm not your friend, then I allow you to continue to be your own worst enemy and engage in self-sabotage. So we weigh what it is, the issue. What is the issue here? What's at stake? And does this need to be addressed? You know, there are some things that, you know, you just Jeremy wore a blue tie today. Okay, so what? You know, Did it what did it disrupt anything? Well, you know, everybody else had on red ties and we and and we told him to wear a red tie. Okay, then so did you ask Jeremy why he had the blue tie on? Perhaps he had the red or the red tie on, but rather, you know, perhaps he had the right color on, but something happened along the way. So rather than him not have a tie, he asked someone there, can I borrow your tie? rather than go in the room without a tie. Ask the questions, hold the conversation, get the feedback, and inspire that person to take action rather than you going to fix it. You allow the person to stand up and them to own it and to repair and fix that situation. speaker-1: It sounds like an infinitely less stressful way of being a leader when you are working with this sense of us and collaboration and looking to empower the people that you're with and to have high integrity conversations. The kind of power game of me versus you or domination and so on sounds that it it just in general has to be a very painful way to lead. It has to be high stress. And this notion Both at an individual level and at a company level, but even at a planetary level of of how do we solve this as us feels like the only way forward, right? speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: Yeah. So what about conflict then? When when people are at odds with each other, when things get really tough? Is there a a way that we should be approaching our voices from your perspective and a way of c of communicating and and talking about high conflict situations? speaker-0: Yes, absolutely. So here's the thing. I've been in a few of those myself, especially when you're dealing with, you know, executives. you know, they can be, you know, these egos that come into place, right? And they have an idea of what should be done that may not necessarily be the best for themselves, because you're seeing it from a totally different lens, or best for the organization, its customers, employees. And so you will have conflict. I've had plenty of conflict, but understanding that I'm not running. From the conflict, but we will absolutely discuss it. And so I believe in having a healthy discussion where we identify the right time. One of the things that I do with the leaders is I'll say, Hey, permission to speak freely, permission to speak candidly. Is this a great time for us to have an uncomfortable conversation? And so I say that because I want to set the expectation here that this may not necessarily be the conversation that you want to hear, but it's the conversation that we need to have to be. able to come to some type of agreement and to move forward if we are both professionals and we pref we respect each other as well as the work. So how do you plan for the conversation? How do you set up the conversation? What is it that you desire out of the conversation and what happens next? I think you have to have a great vision for that because everyone is not going to see things the same way that you see them. We have our own experiences, our own lived experiences. You know, you may be looking at, and I'll say this often when I as I advise leaders, you perhaps you have some information that I've not been privy to. And so you're looking at it from a totally different lens. But from the chair that I sit in, from the seat that I'm in, here's what I see. And here's what I believe it will happen. And here's the recommendation. And I'll often give them a couple of options and then say, but this is my recommendation and here's why. But I support whatever decision that you make. Now, of course, with that, that alone can lead to conflict because there you were I've been making a different what do you mean by that? I don't mean anything other than you are the gavel holder on this. I've given my recommendation. Now here's the challenge there. And they could execute something different from what I recommended. We still fully support it, but at the end of the day, there could be some fallout. And of course, with that fallout, When I'm having to now go back and say, Hey, I need for you to own this. I need for you to go back to the organization. And I need for you to own what happened and where we go next, because that's how we build trust and that's how we have camaraderie with all of the organization rallying together, coming together to be able to move forward. We've got to get on the same page here. And so you have to own it instead of brushing it off. And sometimes they don't want to do that. Well, we're going to have marketing to come up with that, or you know, can you just Write something for me. No, let it be genuine. I can give you some bullet points or some talking points, but here's how we move forward if we're going to win. It's no difference from the coach in the locker room. We made some plays, whatever the case is, you're the quarterback, you did something different. Here's where we are. Own it and let's move forward. And that can be challenging for some people who are not used to having someone to call them out and then call them up. But as an executive advisor, that's what I do. I'm going to call out the behavior and I'm going to call you up to a different standard and a level of excellence because you owe it to yourself as well as you owe it to the stakeholders to bring your very best and to lead and dominate the market whenever possible, because that's how we get a return on investment. That's how we have a return on the power that you've been entrusted with when we don't do it well. We see communities shut down. We see families, you know, having to make some different c choices with where they live, what they eat, the car they drive, the vacations they go on. So these decisions are not light. And so there will be some conflict. But I think it's how we engage in conflict. And I absolutely, I'll be honest. I've had leaders yell and scream and curse. And I've had to share with them, hey, I don't do that. I don't expect that. I tell you what, why don't we table this conversation and take a time out and we'll come back to it when you're a little bit less passionate about it? Because it's one thing to curse, it's a totally different thing to curse at me when you Are in the heat of the seat. This was the decision that you made, and you had that recommendation. And so you decided to make a different decision. And that's okay. It's not the end of the world. However, we're not going to start cursing at the people in the room because of your decision. speaker-1: Sounds like you've stood in the fire a few times in some big fires. I really love that phrasing of calling them out and calling them up. I'm so curious, you know, as you talk about that, just what it means to own mistakes. I often think that when people are in the earlier stages of their professional journey or putting themselves out into the world. That there's a huge amount of perfectionism, and we've said imposter syndrome. So there's this notion that you have to be and that you're gonna be perfect, that somehow you're gonna get it right all the time and you're not gonna make mistakes. And something happens if you're generally out genuinely out there really in really putting stuff out into the world in which you will make mistakes, in which you will be average sometimes. How do we, when we're really authentic and powerful own and deal with the mistakes that we make? How do we front up and share those with the world in a way that's powerful and and even is an act of leadership? speaker-0: It's a great question. I think it comes down to who are you as a person? Are you truly a person of character, integrity, and accountability? If those are your core values, it's really easy to do. If those are not your core values, you're gonna struggle with that. Because I remember years ago I was working at an organization and the C H R O came to me and she said, somebody said, whatever it was, I can't even remember what she said. Somebody, and I just looked at her. And I said, Do you really think I would have done that? Do you really think that's who I am? And she thought about it for like a second and she's like, actually, no, because you own everything that you do. And she just walked up. And later on, we talked about that. She was like, You really do own everything. And I was Yeah, I come to you first. And so if it's something that I made a mistake. If it's something that I did, if it was something that I said, and perhaps I regretted it later because I'm human, just like everyone else, I will go and own that, say, hey, I did XYZ. Shouldn't have. I did it. I apologize. Here's what I should have done. And here's my commitment that you have for me moving forward. Now I only do that if I'm truly committed to making a change as we move forward. If I've reflected and I say, you know what, I can commit to this. And so I think it's again, it's just You are, you know, think about it. I had it, someone call me a couple of weeks ago, it was a an influencer, and she said, I've made this huge mistake. Here's the situation. Can we strategize about what I do next? Because this will absolutely impact my business. This will impact how people perceive me. And so we needed to just get some time on the calendar and talk about what is it that you want to share? What is it that you're comfortable in sharing? You don't have to share every detail, but you do need to own the decisions that you made and you need to do it quickly. And I think sometimes that's the challenge, is we wait too long. And so as you're waiting too long, people are creating their own stories that may or may not be true. And so, how can you get in front of it? You create your own narrative. You own it. One of my favorite leaders in America today is a person who always, I mean, he finds himself in the craziest of situations, but he always owns it. And he gets in front of that narrative. And he just, hey, I did XYZ, and they move forward. People forgive him. And the next thing you know, he's back on track and doing even better. And it's really. Amazing to see, but I truly believe it's because he agrees to change the behavior or he acknowledges it quickly. He's honest about it, he's not trying to hide it. If somebody calls him out on it, he said, Yes, I did that. Yes, I'm human. And I think that's the problem. As a leader, when you begin to create this persona. That Jeremy is perfect. And now I believe that Jeremy is perfect. He does no wrong. He's king and he has created this story. So when he falls, it's so tragic. But what if he says, you know, I'm human just like you? Yes, I'm the leader of this organization. I'm going to make some a lot of great decisions, I hope. And a lot of times you're going to agree with me, but there are going to be some times where you don't. And there are gonna be some mistakes that we make, but we're gonna learn from them and we're gonna fail forward and we're gonna fail forward quickly. Here's one of those, and then if it happens or when it happens, here's one of those. Remember when I told you that we were gonna fail forward? Well, here's one of those times where we we we did, where I did, and you just own it. You own it, you don't run from it, you're not hiding in the break room, you're not hiding behind the emails, you know, you are coming out with it, addressing it head on. addressing it quickly and moving forward. It's really simple. What did our parents teach us in, you know, when we were kids? Say I'm sorry and mean it. That's it. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that the power of saying sorry is so underestimated, but I also love the addition as you've described it of this really clear commitment to not repeating it. Can you repeat the phrasing? I don't know if you'll remember the phrasing you used for what you say afterwards when you're making a commitment to not repeat the same mistake. speaker-0: Here's my commitment to you. Here's what you can expect of me as we move forward. That's what I prefer to say. Something not the same thing because it's not scripted, but something along those lines. Here's my commitment to you. And here's what I'm committed to doing as we move forward or as I move forward. Another thing that people say I say a lot is you can count on me to not do this again, or you can count on me to XYZ to think about this, you know, as we move forward. You know, you're important to me, or this is important to me. And you know that, and which is why I'm here addressing it with. you now and you know I apologize and then here's what you can expect from me as we move forward. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think I think folks when they are in the earlier stages of their their journey professionally are so afraid of making mistakes and come down so hard on themselves when making mistakes. And no one loves to make humiliating mistakes in the public domain. But if you're a a real leader, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes in f in front of people. In fact, the higher the stakes and the more powerful you become, the more visible your failures are. And is and it's this willingness to fail in in the public domain, to be seen being human, that in some senses might be one of the things that you need to graduate through into if you want to be a a leader of substance. I wanna ask you then, what do you think someone who's on a big journey, who's ambitious, what do you think they need to embody as a communicator, as a human being, and a leader, what qualities Do you think distinguish them from those that don't take the next step? speaker-0: that's a great question. That's a really good question. You know, when you talk about from those who don't take the next step, it's the ability to get back up. You're going to make some mistakes. You're going to have some misses. You are going to fail poorly sometimes at organizational politics where you've won at other organizations. But it's understanding that, hey, this is just information. It's just data. And so I'm taking the data and I'm using the data to make a different decision that moves me forward. And so I think processing it not from a lens of failure, I made a mistake. It's data. That's it. Process the data and make the adjustment. That's one thing. But even with that, I'm going to say something else that's not necessarily connected to that. But I truly believe we need leaders who have strong character and strong integrity. And again, it's what we hear all the time. When people are not around, when your decisions are not immediately seen or felt, are you a person of character and integrity? Who are you at core? If your decisions were plastered over the five o'clock news all day for a month, and we talked about it and they had podcasts going, and Jeremy's interviewing people about your decisions. Would you make that decision? And if you look back at your life a year from now, five years from now, and 10 years from now, and you see that you've not taken any chances, you've not taken any risk. You know, one of the my favorite things to say, and I say it to leaders all the time: well, roll the dice. and see what happens. You know, with that though, you want a calculated risk, right? You really don't want to just roll the dice and see what happens. But I say that sarcastically because of some of the decisions that they're making and it seems as if they're rolling the dice. But what I'm really saying is take the calculated risk. Look at what you're gonna get versus what you're gonna give up. Sometimes it's it's going to be I roll the dice, I cannot, I'm not a really good fit for this position, but I'm gonna bet on myself. And so I'm willing to put my livelihood on the line to be able to move into a certain position because this is what's gonna take what's needed to take me far. And there are other times where you say, you know what. with that leader, with that culture, with that organization, that's not necessarily a risk that I want to take. But I do know that if I don't take any risk, if I just stay here in this position, that I will be stagnant. And in a year from now, five years from now, I will regret it. And so I think that that's a very dangerous position to be in when you play it safe. speaker-1: Ooh, that's so powerful. So from playing it safe, I want to go back to a phrase that you shared. It it slipped by at high speed, but I know it has meaning. You use the phrase return to power. And I know that you've developed a framework called Return to Power. Can you just describe that a little bit? What what is that all about? speaker-0: Yes, return to power is is all about thinking about the net positive return that we get from leaders who are or people who are put in positions of power and authority. So when you decide that I'm going to put put Jeremy in a position and we're gonna make him a manager, a director, a supervisor, vice president, whatever the case is, right? And it could be a people leader or it could simply be a person who's not a people leader, but man, maybe they're managing programs. But you are expecting something from them. Going back to the vendor manager or the program manager I was speaking about earlier, those type of positions. You know, when you think about as a leader, how you treat individuals determines what they do. I have seen where leaders have not been the best. Leaders in organizations. And then these people who are in these positions are making decisions that are not in the best interest of the organization. Why? Because they've checked out. They don't really care. They are withholding their best. And so are we getting a positive return? Because that's money lost instead of money gained or money or multiplied. And so with that, we see. the powerful making decisions. And it doesn't have to be the powerful that you are president or king or anything like that. But you are in a position where you have the ability to make some decisions. And those decisions, whether we sign up for a let's say a software, some some a particular software, and this software is going cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars, but is it going to yield millions? Or is it I'm that I'm doing this because my Jeremy's my friend and I really like Jeremy. He started this company and so I'm gonna, yeah, we're gonna go with Jeremy. And it's not been the kinks haven't been worked out. And it creates more angst on the team, more stress on the team, whether it's leaving your performer, top performer in a position that they really shouldn't be in because you are afraid of losing them. And so instead of you promoting them or you bringing them into the room because they're gonna outshine you. And so you are threatened by their their leadership, you're threatened by who they are. All of those little things, as well as those big decisions that leaders make, they have an impact on a person first. They have an impact again on how Jeremy shows up every day and how he can, you know, fall, find himself in a position of burnout. How he can say, you know what, I don't feel valued and appreciated here. I'm not doing meaningful work. I think I'm gonna take my talents, my insights, and I'm gonna go somewhere else. And so now we have to replace Jeremy. You know, of how maybe perhaps somebody on the team is toxic, but they're a high performer. And we're not addressing that because we don't want to have the tough conversations and deal with the conflict and risk losing that person. But they are disruptive to the team and the environment. And so now we have ushered in a toxic culture. How we don't necessarily I don't want to, you know, challenge somebody in another department that maybe is a leader. Like me, perhaps they're a VP. But you know, I really don't want to get into making this person an enemy. And so I don't hold their team accountable for something, but their team is impacting how my team works. And so with that. You know, we are my team is frustrated, they're having to take on more responsibility or they're not getting things done. And so that's putting them and their roles at risk. And so what we see is power not being exercised in the way that it should. And when that happens, there's fallout there. You're going to pay the cost either way. And so that cost can turn into an investment. Or if we see it that way, if we see people and our decisions as investments versus a cost and expense, right? So how do we view that? But you're going to pay the cost. Somebody is going to pay for the decisions that you make. And in terms of when I go back to my story of Memphis, Tennessee with my pastor and Martin Luther King Jr., when you think about how he died in Memphis, Tennessee, and to see that city not thriving the way that it could. I truly believe it's because the leadership at that time and the leadership that has come behind it has not addressed what has happened in such a way that we can take that experience. How do we capitalize off of that experience and the history that's there? Be able to attract more businesses to that particular city, and so we can make it vibrant and thriving. Instead of we see the deterioration. Of a community sometimes when leaders and companies exit a company. So that's why I say the decisions actually matter. You see, companies come into a city, are they paying the wages that they should for the people to have a good living? Are they making the as are the city leaders making the decisions they could? So companies want to come into that particular city. All of these decisions matter. So who you place in the seat and how they think. How they lead, how they show up has the ability again to be a cost or it has the ability to be an investment. In either way, there's gonna be a return on the power that we give them. speaker-1: So how would the word responsibility factor into that or being a responsible actor and a responsible voice? speaker-0: Yes, again, it's taking the time to really think about your decisions. Do I have all the data? Do I have the right people in the right rooms? Are we having the right conversations? Do we have somebody who represents the employee's voice? Do we have somebody in the room who represents the customer's voice? And they truly are the customer, is representing the customer's voice and the employee's voice, because those two often get left out of the conversation. We begin to make decisions based upon profits instead of here's the risk and this is the fallout, or here's what this could possibly yield if we do this. And if we begin To think about our decisions that way. And again, really think about these decisions. Not just, okay, I gotta make a quick, I gotta cut $500,000, I gotta cut a million dollars. All right, let's get rid of this department, let's get rid of these tools, let's get it. And you're not even thinking about it because you're so busy cutting the costs that you're not even saying, okay, this matters. You know, if we think about it in terms of healthcare, hospitals will just say, okay, so we're gonna get rid of these gloves. Because these gloves are cheaper. Well, they're cheaper, but will are the gloves equal or better because they're cheaper. Because if we use these particular gloves over here, yes, they're cheaper. However, we may have an influx of patients who are coming with other you know infections or issues, right? So are we creating another problem from this particular problem? And so that's why it's so important to think about think responsibly. about the decisions that you're making, just not the immediate decision, but what's the long term impact of the decisions that you are making? Being a leader who is strategic, you're you see the short term win, but you also see the long term gain as well. And I think that's where we kind of have our misses sometimes. We're so busy in the thick of it. So much is coming to us that we don't really narrow in on what I would like to say doing a few things well or why it's important to have the right people in the right seats doing the right Things at the right time, that matters because you can trust them. If I know that, you know, I don't have to think about this because Jeremy is absolutely a beast at what he does. You know, he is absolutely, you know, amazing at who he is and how he leads and his team, they're performing. We're outperforming the market and we're out and healthily and we're outperforming our competition. And we've made the decision that we're gonna be number one and we're gonna stay number one, but we're gonna do it the right way. That's a different conversation where you are creating a culture of excellence. And so that means we have to have a high culture of accountability. That means that we are calling people out and we're calling them up. We are responsible. We're having the conversation. You can't just say, well, no, we can't do that. We can't do that. No, we can't do that. Why? And it's not that I'm asking why. You're telling me why before. That even happens, and we're getting in the com in the room and we're having these meetings and these conversations and making these decisions, not in isolation. But in view of what's the bigger picture and what's the ripple effect. If I do this, if Jeremy makes this decision, then here's the decision how this impacts Sherilyn. And this is how this impacts Sherylyn, this is how this impacts, you know, Margaret. And this is how impacts Margaret. And so we're beginning to, you know, connect those threads and those dots and put the puzzle pieces together so that you're not necessarily having to feel such significant blows that your organization was never. equipped to fail in the first place. speaker-1: That's so powerful. Thank you. So I want to us to circle back to that C suite, that lofty C suite we were talking about at the beginning of our chat. If someone is middle management or they are wanting to grow in the the eyes of the world and be more visible and more senior and take on more responsibility and be seen as a leader and to lead and support. their organization or the world to become a bit of a better place and make more money. What do you think they should do with their voices and their communication skills to embody that powerful sweet sweet leadership that you described earlier? speaker-0: Yes. Get involved in the organization. Like you said, become visible, but learn how to tell a story. Learn how to create impact. Learn how to become influential. become a credible leader where people trust your voice. And that's just over time of you making recommendations, doing the right things, right? How you show up day in, day out, how do you present yourself? One of the things I would say is just continually invest in your yourself and be more strategic in the leaders that you work for because your leader, your immediate leader, is determining if they give you credit for the work that you're doing. Are they putting your room, your name and your face in the right rooms? Are they giving you visible projects, you know, the projects and the work that you get to work on. those things actually matter. Are they respected? Because they can say that Jeremy is great and Jeremy does this and they can really play you up. But if nobody respects them, then that's a challenge, right? That's, you know, it's like, well, you're average. So why would I listen to you when you're not even, you know, good. And so I say be more mindful of who you connect yourself with. And you may say, Well, I don't really have a choice. Yes, you do, because you can go to another department, you can go to another organization, you can begin to have the conversations with their next level manager. How do you do that? It could be something as simple as when they cast vision for something, you have a town hall, send them a nice little message back. Hey, I really love how you talked about this. I would love to talk, explore that more. here's an idea that may help you. I read an article about what our competition is doing. here's, you know. I've highlighted the key pieces that you need to be aware of, or our organization should be aware of. Are we doing anything as it relates to this? Here's what I see as a challenge. I would love to be able to work on this for the organization. Put yourself out there, is what I'm saying. You know, don't necessarily wait for the opportunities to go to you. You go find them. Ask for a mentor. Identify someone who can be your sponsor or an advocate. Get involved, but don't just get involved for the sake of getting involved. Ensure that when you raise your hand, it's meaningful and it adds value to the organization as well as it adds value to yourself. speaker-1: Yeah, that sounds so powerful. And it really asks of that person, asks of us to courageously put our voice out and advocate for ourselves and ask for support or just simply communicate more and reach out to folk that might scare you a little bit, but discover that. As you've described, even C suite people are the best ones are are really human and the and they'll talk back and you can have a human conversation with them. But don't just stay in your little cubby hole. really talk to the world and and discover if you can create relationships that'll help you thrive. As we finish up, I I the the one word that you've actually said many times throughout our whole conversation is the word story. And I really just want to say to everyone who's listening to deeply affirm what Sherilyn said here, which is that our ability to tell stories, our own stories, inspiring stories, extremely human stories of failure and success, are it's it's one of the most important skills we can possibly learn from a communication point of view. Is that kind of what you mean, or was there something else that you were describing? speaker-0: I would I would say you landed that. When you think about stories connect us. Stories make people remember us. Stories make people ask us follow-up conversations. So they are tools, strategic tools that can make you stand out because how many people tell stories in the workplace? We all give information, we all give the data, but we are we we've not been taught the power of using those stories to draw people in and make people want to know more. about who we are. And I think for me, that's been a game changer in my career, even when I'm advising leaders. One of the things I always say is, let me tell you is, let me tell you a story. Do you want to hear a story about XYZ? And I think it's what allows them to see me as I think initially they may see it's threatening but non-threatening here, right? You're learning the lesson through the power of a story. Goes back to what I said about my foundation, that origin story of being in church with the Bible and the Bible stories. And so I've just learned that and even going to church on Sundays, right? They're telling you stories. It's a way. To get drawn in. The best movies are telling us a story. I love documentaries. I watch documentaries probably every single week. And it's a story. And so when you learn how to tell those stories in such a way That you're not going on and on, you can make them short, you can make them punchy, but you make them powerful and you make them necessary, and you will begin to see that the you're influencing the organization because the leaders, other leaders would start to tell stories. Matter of fact, they'll tell you the same story, and then they're giving you credit. Well, I heard Jeremy say, or Jeremy once told this story, and it happens all the time. And we would laugh at some of the stories that I would tell and how leaders will repeat those same stories, but it's how I was able to grow my career, fast track it because I'm an introvert. So I have to find a way to connect and to connect fast and in a way that's non-threatening, especially being a truth teller. And so it's just a way I think that allows you to really kind of again pull people in and make them want to come. I I've always tried to find a way to make them come to me because I don't want to go to them because I am that introvert. So how do I get you to come over here and talk to me? It's by telling a story. speaker-1: Yeah, the power of storytelling. I I I it's incredible to hear that you're an introvert. You know, the moment you said, let me tell you a story, I found myself like leaning in. It was just this, yeah, come on, tell me a story, Sherilyn. And it y I can see that you've really learned to turn that into a very powerful skill. And I think it's one of the most important communication skills we can learn. And I've been a really late adoptee too. And I think it's really transformed my communication skills and I just love it. I'm a big advocate for it too. Doctor Sherilyn, I want to thank you so much for our time together. It's been really, really incredible. Thank you so, so much. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. I have really enjoyed this conversation, my favorite by far. speaker-1: I wanna tell you also that I don't know if you'd know that you do this, but you smile when you speak and you've had this big broad smile as you've communicated throughout. I th this has gotta be a kind of an incredible skill. Do you know you did do that or did you develop that as a did you decide to do that at some point? speaker-0: always heard that I do that. And so that's been I will say this, that's been one of the things that people say, even when you're giving bad news, you're still smiling. You might want to change it. I can't help it. It's not something that I do intentionally. speaker-1: It's such a great habit. Doctor Sherilyn Payne, thank you. It's been a real joy speaking today. speaker-0: Thank you. I have truly enjoyed it. It's been a pleasure. speaker-1: Okay, take care.