Latest / Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health / Demystifying AA For Young People: Spirituality, Rock Bottom, Fellowship and Nicotine with Three Young Adults

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Demystifying AA For Young People: Spirituality, Rock Bottom, Fellowship and Nicotine with Three Young Adults · Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

• 0:01
  Megan: I think overall my parents were pretty much a united front to
• 0:05
  Megan's Mom: me.
• 0:07
  Megan's Mom: We would definitely have very different methods, I guess, of trying to get to where we wanted to get to.
• 0:13
  Megan's Mom: But one of the things we've always tried to do is like, there was not going to be any running to mom or running to dad.
• 0:20
  Megan's Mom: Like, we would always go in together.
• 0:23
  Megan: That's been something set since I was a kid.
• 0:26
  Megan: Like, that
• 0:26
  Megan's Mom: was
• 0:26
  Megan: a new thing in my using that they were united.
• 0:30
  Megan: They have been a united front.
• 0:31
  Megan: Since I was little.
• 0:42
  Brenda: Welcome to HopeStream, a podcast where you'll hear interviews, conversations, and encouraging words for parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health.
• 0:54
  Brenda: I'm Brenda Zane, your host and a fellow parent whose child struggled.
• 0:59
  Brenda: I'm so glad you're here.
• 1:00
  Brenda: Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore.
• 1:05
  Brenda: Hello friend.
• 1:06
  Brenda: I have such a special show for you today.
• 1:09
  Brenda: I've been wanting to share this for a while.
• 1:12
  Brenda: Took a little while to work it into our editing schedule, but the insights that you are going to hear today are pure gold.
• 1:21
  Brenda: So whatever you're doing.
• 1:22
  Brenda: Be sure you can really single task for the next little while, because you won't want to miss hearing directly from these young people in recovery.
• 1:31
  Brenda: Each month in our private online community for parents, we host a guest speaker session.
• 1:36
  Brenda: And a few months ago, we hosted an AMA and ask me anything about recovery and specifically recovery in the 12 step world.
• 1:46
  Brenda: We did this for a couple of reasons.
• 1:48
  Brenda: One is that unless you've had exposure to what AA is, what it's all about, how it works and how it helps people get and stay in recovery, it might be a complete mystery to you.
• 2:01
  Brenda: We also hosted this special session because it's one thing to hear from peer parent coaches and therapists and specialists and doctors and all the amazing people I have on the podcast who talk about helping our kids work toward recovery.
• 2:17
  Brenda: It's another thing to hear it directly from them.
• 2:21
  Brenda: So in this particular session, we dove deep into the 12 step model of recovery, and in future sessions, we'll explore non 12 step programs.
• 2:30
  Brenda: And if you're not familiar with AA, you will hear our guests refer specifically to alcoholics, but that's a term that is meant to apply to drugs and alcohol.
• 2:40
  Brenda: It's basically just a shorthand.
• 2:42
  Brenda: So I wanted to mention that nuance to you.
• 2:45
  Brenda: You'll be hearing voices of two young ladies, and I will be sharing input from a third participant who chose not to have his responses shared in this recording.
• 2:55
  Brenda: Thank you.
• 2:56
  Brenda: I am going to call him John, just for simplicity's sake.
• 3:00
  Brenda: And as a reminder, we are very conscientious of people's choices around privacy.
• 3:06
  Brenda: So names have been changed and some specific details have been edited out for that reason.
• 3:27
  Brenda: To begin, we asked our guests to introduce themselves and let us know their age and stage of recovery.
• 3:33
  Brenda: We also asked them to share with us about the concept of a higher power in the 12 step program.
• 3:38
  Brenda: Thank you.
• 3:39
  Brenda: Are members whose kids aren't religious or who don't consider themselves to have a higher power wanting to understand how that might play into a person's recovery journey and if they would be able to connect with a 12 step program?
• 3:53
  Megan: Hi, I'm Megan.
• 3:54
  Megan: I have a little over two years of sobriety.
• 3:57
  Megan: I am 24, so God said when I was 22.
• 4:00
  Megan: Down here in Orange County.
• 4:02
  Megan: My main drug of choice was fentanyl.
• 4:04
  Megan: I was doing it for a while.
• 4:07
  Megan: And if I remember correctly, I mean, my mom and dad are here.
• 4:10
  Megan: They can tell me if I'm wrong, but we went to church a few times when I was younger, but we were a pretty non religious household.
• 4:20
  Megan: There wasn't really anything we did with that.
• 4:22
  Megan: So when I got into treatment and I started doing the steps with my She asked me if I had a.
• 4:30
  Megan: Problem with the higher power and it I yeah, I did for a while it took me a while and the one thing that she kind of explained to me that actually Was able to get me to grasp the whole thing Was she was talking to me about my fentanyl usage and she's like well Were you able to just stop on your own and I said no like I wouldn't have been here if I wasn't She's like so Something other than it didn't have to be greater than me, but it was something other than me Had a hold on me.
• 5:01
  Megan: So finally after she kind of explained that I was able to think about it in a way It's like okay.
• 5:07
  Megan: Well fentanyl had this hold on me.
• 5:09
  Megan: I couldn't stop it alone What's the difference between Something greater than me, something other than me being able to help keep me sober and have this experience where I don't just have to do it all myself.
• 5:21
  Megan: Sorry.
• 5:23
  Megan: That was kind of my experience with that.
• 5:25
  Megan: I will say I don't really have a defined higher power still.
• 5:31
  Megan: That's still something I kind of struggle with, but I kind of moves and changes.
• 5:36
  Megan: Like for a while it was the other girls in my treatment center, you know, they were around to help keep me sober and then people at work, it kind of just moves and flows and.
• 5:45
  Megan: Whatever helps me, that's just not myself.
• 5:48
  Megan: That's just my experience with it.
• 5:50
  Janice: I am 25.
• 5:52
  Janice: I have just over a year of recovery.
• 5:57
  Janice: I definitely agree with everything that you shared and I, I have a similar experience.
• 6:03
  Janice: I remember like doing like step one with my sponsor.
• 6:08
  Janice: And I was also addicted to fentanyl and being like, well, I don't know anyone would do fentanyl.
• 6:13
  Janice: Of course they would, you know, be addicted to it.
• 6:15
  Janice: Like, well, like I had all these like rationalizations and then being pointed out that something had a power over me that I couldn't, that I had no like way of managing at all was helpful because I, I mean, and I didn't really have.
• 6:32
  Janice: A huge problem with like the spirituality, like higher power aspect.
• 6:37
  Janice: I think it was as it is in the program, more is always revealed and I learned so much more about it.
• 6:42
  Janice: And we have a saying that's really common.
• 6:44
  Janice: If I can describe my higher power, it's not big enough.
• 6:48
  Janice: And so it just encompasses this.
• 6:50
  Janice: I agree, resonated with what Megan was saying about my higher power.
• 6:53
  Janice: So like lows, like I have no parameters on what it is or isn't and something that I've been.
• 7:01
  Janice: Discovering a lot recently because I grew up going to Catholic school was just kind of breaking free from these standards that I thought things had to be because that's just what I grew up with, even though I don't like identify as Catholic anymore, or like really ever in my life.
• 7:18
  Janice: But like, you know, just realizing like, oh, I don't have to say amen at the end of my prayers if I don't want to.
• 7:24
  Janice: I am working with a sponsor right now that really struggles with the higher power situation.
• 7:29
  Janice: And, um, we talking about science cause I was like, yeah, no, like I fully believe in like evolution.
• 7:35
  Janice: My higher power didn't just plot me on the earth as some religions would suggest, but my higher power is like something, you know, that is like a greater experience than myself.
• 7:46
  Janice: And it, it changed for me all the time.
• 7:49
  Janice: At first it was like the ocean.
• 7:51
  Janice: Because I can't be the one to create the waves, and it was like the moon, you know, because that's what kind of creates these tides.
• 7:57
  Janice: It was like the feeling of love for me at one point was like a higher power aspect.
• 8:01
  Janice: And then it just kind of like evolved into this thing where I'm like, I have no way of describing it, but as long as it's there, as long as I can like connect to it in some way in like my morning prayers, then that's all I need to be able to like trust that my recovery will stay strong.
• 8:17
  Brenda: John is 28 years old.
• 8:19
  Brenda: He has eight years of sobriety and got sober when he was 19 years old in Southern California.
• 8:26
  Brenda: His feedback on the question of the importance and focus on a higher power in the AA program was this, as far as the spiritual experience goes in AA or any other anonymous program, your spirituality is not suggested to be anything in those programs.
• 8:43
  Brenda: They're not like, Hey, you have to be Catholic or Christian or whatever.
• 8:47
  Brenda: And for example, I'm more of a Buddhist spirituality.
• 8:50
  Brenda: So prayer and meditation are a little more loosey goosey as far as what their roles are.
• 8:56
  Brenda: I have friends who are very hardcore Catholic or Christian who go to church and do all of that.
• 9:02
  Brenda: So the beauty of the anonymous program is it doesn't tie you to a box.
• 9:06
  Brenda: You're able to have your own personal spiritual experience.
• 9:09
  Brenda: So whatever someone's spiritual journey is going to be, it's going to be that.
• 9:14
  Brenda: The main important thing with the steps, are just that you have a higher power and that you're practicing your spirituality.
• 9:21
  Brenda: I also want to add, I think one thing that's a commonality for a lot of alcoholics are trouble with religion in one way or another.
• 9:29
  Brenda: But luckily, because it's such a common thing in the rooms, it's very easy for other alcoholics to help people get over that.
• 9:36
  Brenda: When I first got sober, my sponsor asked me if I thought I was more powerful than nature.
• 9:41
  Brenda: Because alcoholics and addicts have ego problems, typically.
• 9:45
  Brenda: And so, he recommended I go jump in the ocean and try to tread water for 24 hours.
• 9:51
  Brenda: And, of course, I wouldn't be able to do that because I'm not more powerful than the ocean.
• 9:55
  Brenda: And I realized, put into perspective, how small I was on the earth and how there are things out there more powerful than me.
• 10:03
  Brenda: He said your addiction is one of those things and you need something that's more powerful than that to help you get out of this.
• 10:10
  Brenda: And for a long time my first higher power was also the ocean because it was something that was like, yeah I can't beat a tsunami, you know so that's a very common thing in the rooms for people to deal with.
• 10:22
  Brenda: So a person's spiritual journey is going to be whatever it's going to be and someone's recovery is going to be whatever it's going to be.
• 10:30
  Brenda: And they're both going to grow in their own way.
• 10:33
  Brenda: So for example, if a person is truly done and they've had what we call the gift of desperation, then that coupled with a good, strong spiritual experience and spiritual program will be the combination to build a good foundation of recovery.
• 10:48
  Brenda: Well, pretty insightful, huh?
• 10:50
  Brenda: I love the honesty and level of maturity that these very young people have around their spirituality.
• 11:03
  Brenda: Next, we talked about the ever controversial topic of rock bottom.
• 11:07
  Brenda: We wanted to understand what that meant to each of these young people and how specifically it applied to their recovery journey.
• 11:15
  Janice: For myself experiencing sobriety, like actual sobriety and recovery, because there was a time before when I had stopped using fentanyl, but I was still using.
• 11:27
  Janice: Every other drug and alcohol and so I didn't necessarily come to the program with the gift of desperation this time I struggled a lot when I first got sober this time like I I could have gotten worse I could have gotten lower my last time out was much worse emotionally and I didn't come in with the gift of desperation But after I stayed in the program and worked the steps and the promises started to come true in my life I got A different sort of gift of desperation.
• 11:54
  Janice: Like I became desperate to keep what I had found here in recovery.
• 11:57
  Janice: And that was like the turning point for me, the rock bottom part.
• 12:03
  Janice: Like I said, I did struggle, you know, and it sort of took me to develop this mindset.
• 12:09
  Janice: And I remember it clicking one day of like.
• 12:12
  Janice: Why do I need to make this so hard for myself?
• 12:14
  Janice: You know, why am I so dead set on just burning everything to the ground?
• 12:19
  Janice: Just because I was so much worse the last time that I was using fentanyl doesn't mean that I need to reduce myself to nothing, you know, this time.
• 12:28
  Janice: And also like a part of it for me, the not saving like my parents.
• 12:32
  Janice: I remember that first time part of something that helped me get to that bottom.
• 12:37
  Janice: Quickly was them being like, no, cutting me off and I was pissed about it and resentful.
• 12:43
  Janice: What ended up happening was no one was there to save me from hitting a rock bottom because when these codependent relationships and I see it with other people in recovery when they have these codependent relationships, they end up getting saved from actually hitting a rock bottom and actually gaining that gift of desperation.
• 12:59
  Janice: Like I feel there's a time people that also share a similar story with me, but.
• 13:03
  Janice: I like to be able to talk about that change for me.
• 13:06
  Janice: Like I didn't want to get sober when I got sober, but I became desperate to keep what I'd found.
• 13:10
  Janice: And not a lot of people will stay in the program long enough to experience that.
• 13:14
  Janice: So like, yeah, it's totally necessary to let people hit their rock bottoms, to come in with that gift of desperation, just having faith.
• 13:22
  Janice: That they'll get there, you know, there's that saying faith and fear can't exist at the same place and same time.
• 13:27
  Janice: And that is a really strong one for me, especially when I have good friends, people in the community that go back out and I have to watch them kind of get to their bottom again before they return.
• 13:38
  Janice: One last thing that I'll say that pretty much is what my parent the message they relate to me and the message I relate when I have like a sponsy that goes out or a friend that goes out I just keep it really simple and I say like I'm here to support any decision you make that will support your own recovery.
• 13:54
  Janice: And then I just leave it at that because it just creates like that boundary of if you're not going to make steps forward to support your recovery, I'm not going to support that.
• 14:02
  Janice: But if you come to me for help, if you want to start being an active participant in your recovery, I'll absolutely support that.
• 14:10
  Megan: Rock bottom, they're different for everybody.
• 14:12
  Megan: I knew somebody in one of my meetings who explained that his rock bottom was not putting Christmas gifts out for his children.
• 14:20
  Megan: Like, he forgot to put them out from Santa, and that was it.
• 14:23
  Megan: He was just like, I can't do this if I keep drinking.
• 14:26
  Megan: I can't not be there for my kids like that.
• 14:30
  Megan: And that's what got him in.
• 14:31
  Megan: And then me, on the other hand, you know, I was living out of my car in Portland in, you know, wintertime turning into summertime for a good, like, five or six months, however long it was.
• 14:45
  Megan: And that wasn't, I didn't feel like I was hitting a rock bottom with that, you know, I still had the car.
• 14:50
  Megan: I still had a phone, I could still get what I needed, like, I was doing just fine.
• 14:55
  Megan: My parents were the ones who actually gave me my rock bottom, because they did an intervention and they read their letters to me, their impact letters, and that was just a gut punch.
• 15:13
  Megan: I have never felt worse about what I was doing than when they read their impact letters to me.
• 15:20
  Megan: And I am sure I could have stayed on the streets for a lot longer doing exactly what I was doing and still felt fine about it.
• 15:29
  Megan: It wasn't a physical rock bottom, but it was that impact on my parents that I was making.
• 15:35
  Megan: And what they did, and how they were still a part of my life while I was still out there using, was They would come to Portland because they were living in the Bay Area and they would just, they would just try to bring me to them and just, we just had dinner.
• 15:54
  Megan: Like we would have dinner and we would talk and then they would let me go back out.
• 16:00
  Megan: And then they would come back and we would get some food and they would just let me go.
• 16:06
  Megan: And they kind of had this pattern of doing that and they knew I would keep showing up because they weren't really.
• 16:12
  Megan: They weren't pushing anything on me.
• 16:14
  Megan: They weren't trying to do anything, but they're just like, we want to stay in contact with you in case you need to reach out.
• 16:21
  Megan: We're not going to completely cut you off financially.
• 16:24
  Megan: Yes.
• 16:25
  Megan: Like you're not going to get any money from us anymore, but we still want you in our lives.
• 16:32
  Megan: And so finally, when it was getting to a point where it's like, okay, like Megan, like you cannot.
• 16:39
  Megan: be out there any longer.
• 16:41
  Megan: They interventioned me, read those letters, and I have been sober since the day after that intervention.
• 16:50
  Brenda: Then John provided his perspective.
• 16:53
  Brenda: I dragged along my bottom for a while before getting sober, and I think every person's bottom looks totally different.
• 17:00
  Brenda: And the main important thing is you can show support without enabling.
• 17:04
  Brenda: And I do it with all the time.
• 17:07
  Brenda: Where I've had sponsies go out and I'm like, Hey, you know, I'll speak to you if you want to talk.
• 17:12
  Brenda: We can go get some food if you want to talk about recovery or something.
• 17:16
  Brenda: But I'm not here to throw you 20 bucks if you need gas in your car.
• 17:20
  Brenda: I'm here to support your recovery and that's it.
• 17:22
  Brenda: Where I got sober, they're pretty hardcore as far as recovery and sobriety goes.
• 17:28
  Brenda: I've heard guys tell their sponsees to go out and drink because the sponsee doesn't think that they're having a problem.
• 17:34
  Brenda: They don't think they're a real alcoholic.
• 17:36
  Brenda: And they're like, okay, you should go try some drinking.
• 17:39
  Brenda: And that's how I was taught to be sober.
• 17:41
  Brenda: If I meet with a guy and he's unsure, I don't work with them.
• 17:44
  Brenda: And I'll kind of walk them through their story and I'll say these things show that you are an alcoholic and if they're like, I'm not sure I say, okay, you should probably go find another sponsor because for me, my program is life and death.
• 17:59
  Brenda: My bottom was a series of weeks, if not a few months of contemplating and attempting suicide through various ways.
• 18:06
  Brenda: And I know that when I drink or use, that's where it ends up.
• 18:10
  Brenda: I don't know how to stop on my own.
• 18:12
  Brenda: And the closest thing I can do to stop is to try and not live anymore.
• 18:16
  Brenda: So I take my program very, very seriously.
• 18:20
  Brenda: And I encourage the guys that I work with to take it seriously as well, especially nowadays where fentanyl is so prevalent and people are doing that.
• 18:29
  Brenda: So I think as far as bottoms go and supporting an alcoholic who may be just smoking weed and drinking and he's not doing the hard stuff, that's all right.
• 18:37
  Brenda: You can still be there and support him and go get some food with him or do whatever you need to do.
• 18:42
  Brenda: But it's important not to try and push anything and say something like, Hey, you want to go get sober.
• 18:48
  Brenda: And if he brings up that he's really struggling, the best thing you can do is ask if they're willing to do something about it.
• 18:55
  Brenda: I've had the conversation with some of my high school friends now, and if they talk to me about how hard their drinking is, I know it's not a mistake.
• 19:03
  Brenda: All of my close friends from high school know that I'm sober, and they watched the spiral downwards.
• 19:08
  Brenda: So I know that if I get spoken to about some of this stuff, I know why.
• 19:13
  Brenda: So I don't pitch anything to them.
• 19:15
  Brenda: But if they're speaking to me, I'll say, Hey, so are you just kind of telling me a war story or are you going to do something about it?
• 19:22
  Brenda: And then I just hear what they're going to say.
• 19:24
  Brenda: They'll either say, uh, yeah, I need to do something about it or nah, I'm just kind of telling you a war story.
• 19:30
  Brenda: And then I'll just say, all right, cool, because I don't offer my help if it's not wanted.
• 19:35
  Brenda: And I think that's the most important thing.
• 19:38
  Brenda: There's a principle of the program.
• 19:40
  Brenda: Attraction rather than promotion, and so I'm not here to pitch anything to anyone.
• 19:45
  Brenda: I'm here to offer my experience and help someone if they want help.
• 19:49
  Brenda: But like I said earlier, if I'm speaking with a guy and he doesn't want help, I don't sponsor him because he doesn't think he has a problem.
• 19:56
  Brenda: Because if I do, I'm taking time away from a guy who maybe does and that maybe could be saved.
• 20:02
  Brenda: I know it's a little grim.
• 20:03
  Brenda: This program is very, very life or death.
• 20:06
  Brenda: I'm 28 and I've had a lot of friends die from this disease.
• 20:10
  Brenda: So it's a serious thing.
• 20:13
  Brenda: I want to add here that as parents, we also have to reach a point where we are willing to accept help.
• 20:19
  Brenda: We too need the gift of desperation, which can come in lots of different forms.
• 20:24
  Brenda: My gift of desperation was an incident that happened with my son, which I won't go into in detail, but it was significant enough.
• 20:32
  Brenda: And the ramifications were serious enough.
• 20:34
  Brenda: I finally admitted to myself that we had a real problem and it galvanized me into action.
• 20:41
  Brenda: But your gift of desperation might be totally different.
• 20:44
  Brenda: It might be a peaceful moment when things seem to be going well, and you realize you will do anything to preserve that environment.
• 20:52
  Brenda: Or it could be a diagnosis.
• 20:54
  Brenda: or a quiet moment with your child.
• 20:57
  Brenda: I would encourage you to think about what's orbiting around your current situation.
• 21:01
  Brenda: And if you haven't taken specific concrete steps to make positive change with your family, think about what it would take to move you into action.
• 21:11
  Brenda: I have to say this part of the conversation alone is pure gold because it helps parents understand the correlation between rock bottom and the gift of desperation.
• 21:20
  Brenda: And that a person's bottom can look like a lot of different things and that sometimes it's given versus reached.
• 21:33
  Brenda: Next, we talked about parents being on the same page.
• 21:36
  Brenda: A common scenario that we see at Hopestream is that parents, whether they're married, divorced, or otherwise, are sometimes not on the same page with their approach to dealing with their child's substance use.
• 21:47
  Brenda: It's incredibly frustrating and it often delays the young person getting treatment because they're playing parents off each other.
• 21:55
  Brenda: And it can cause a lot of friction and distraction from focusing on motivating their child to accept help.
• 22:02
  Brenda: Fortunately, we also had Megan's parents on the call and Megan's mom provided incredibly valuable input from her and her husband's experience.
• 22:11
  Brenda: Take a listen.
• 22:13
  Megan: I think overall my parents were pretty much a united front to me.
• 22:18
  Megan: I will say hearing everything that went on behind the scenes after I got sober, I think there was a while where they were a little back and forth, maybe not agreeing on so many things.
• 22:30
  Megan: And they actually, when they first found out I was using, they moved up to Portland for about six months.
• 22:37
  Megan: I definitely went to my mom more than my dad for things if I.
• 22:42
  Megan: Needed her to pick me up or I needed borrow car or whatever I would always try to go to her because I felt like she would try to help me more than my dad I don't know the extent of how disagreeing they were behind the scenes, but Usually when we got together They were pretty united front like everything's okay I, I just know they put on a front too where they were like, it's okay, you know, just trying to be happy and supportive and like, Oh, come to dinner.
• 23:11
  Megan: And then behind the scenes, it was definitely very, I mean, am I right?
• 23:15
  Megan: Am I wrong?
• 23:16
  Megan's Mom: You're right.
• 23:16
  Megan's Mom: I mean, we would definitely have very different methods, I guess, of trying to, to get to where we wanted to get to.
• 23:25
  Megan's Mom: But one of the things we've always tried to do is like, there was not going to be any running to mom or running to dad, like we would always go in together.
• 23:35
  Megan's Mom: So we tried to maintain that because we, above all else, we didn't want that kind of going around somebody's back.
• 23:43
  Megan's Mom: We knew you'd take it to that.
• 23:45
  Megan: Well, and that's been, that's been something set since I was a kid.
• 23:49
  Megan: Like, I learned a new thing in my using that they were united.
• 23:53
  Megan: They have been a united front since I was little.
• 23:56
  Megan: It's always been, you know, I ask mom for a cookie, she's like, did you ask your dad?
• 24:03
  Megan: Or she says no, and I go to my dad, and he's like, did you ask your mom?
• 24:06
  Megan: They always had to make sure that like, they were checking in with each other if I wasn't just going to one or another for everything consistently.
• 24:14
  Megan: So that wasn't a new thing for them, but it's always been a united front with them.
• 24:19
  Megan's Mom: Yeah, and we did have to take time apart.
• 24:22
  Megan's Mom: You know, I mean, I don't want to make this about us, but we did, in a lot of cases, Spend time apart.
• 24:28
  Megan's Mom: I would stay in Portland and Dave would come back to California just for us to get time away from each other because it was so intense, right?
• 24:36
  Megan's Mom: And you begin fighting amongst yourselves, basically.
• 24:40
  Megan's Mom: But we stuck to, she's not going to get a different answer.
• 24:45
  Brenda: And then John shared this.
• 24:47
  Brenda: I believe my parents were probably split for a little bit.
• 24:50
  Brenda: Typically, I think my dad would be more like, hey, cut him off.
• 24:54
  Brenda: And my mom would be more like, no, hold on to him.
• 24:57
  Brenda: So if I knew someone was going to try and help me out, I was gonna try and manipulate them when I was in my disease.
• 25:03
  Brenda: So that's definitely a thing, but it was also tough because my parents are together and they live in the same house and it was harder for me to manipulate because more often than not they were coming to me at the same time.
• 25:15
  Brenda: So for me, it was just easier not to be at home and to spend as little time at home as possible.
• 25:21
  Brenda: So that was my experience.
• 25:23
  Brenda: But if I knew one of them was on a different page about something in my addiction, I was definitely trying to manipulate them.
• 25:38
  Brenda: Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried sick about their substance use?
• 25:45
  Brenda: I have been there and I want you to know there's hope.
• 25:48
  Brenda: This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents.
• 25:55
  Brenda: We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward, making positive change in your family.
• 26:03
  Brenda: So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments.
• 26:15
  Brenda: We step you through the evidence based craft approach, a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom.
• 26:26
  Brenda: We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you.
• 26:29
  Brenda: Head over to HopeStreamCommunity.
• 26:31
  Brenda: org to tap into all of our resources and become part of the HopeStream family in our private online community.
• 26:39
  Brenda: Remember, you're not alone in this.
• 26:42
  Brenda: We're doing it together.
• 26:43
  Brenda: Now, let's get back to the conversation.
• 26:59
  Brenda: Next, we talked about the importance of peer support, especially for adolescents.
• 27:04
  Brenda: And John shared his thoughts.
• 27:07
  Brenda: I think it's really important for a kid to have his own experience with it.
• 27:11
  Brenda: If he wants to be sober and wants to do all of that, then full throttle support that.
• 27:16
  Brenda: On the other side, if he doesn't think that he is, then I think he has to have his own experience.
• 27:21
  Brenda: That's just my perspective.
• 27:23
  Brenda: I didn't do anything until my sophomore year of high school.
• 27:27
  Brenda: I remember when I went into my freshman year, I was like, Oh, if you smoke weed, you're a loser.
• 27:32
  Brenda: But by the end of my sophomore year and beginning of junior year, I was snorting Xanax in my school parking lot before class.
• 27:38
  Brenda: So a pretty rapid change.
• 27:41
  Brenda: And that came from my personal headspace at the time.
• 27:44
  Brenda: The guys I was hanging out with were not doing anything crazy, but I found the people who were because I needed to make my actions the norm.
• 27:52
  Brenda: So I had to find the people who were like that.
• 27:56
  Brenda: I had that group that was like, no, we don't drink.
• 27:58
  Brenda: We don't do anything else.
• 27:59
  Brenda: But then I was like, yeah, I'm just going to go find some people who do.
• 28:03
  Brenda: And then I'm going to put up this charade in front of you guys who don't drink that I'm not doing that either.
• 28:08
  Brenda: So as far as fellowship goes, it's a super important thing.
• 28:11
  Brenda: I moved to a new city two years ago.
• 28:13
  Brenda: And for the first year I was here, I had no fellowship and my recovery was probably the worst it's ever been.
• 28:19
  Brenda: And that was seven years in and it was really tough.
• 28:22
  Brenda: And then about a year ago, I met this great fellowship and I've got really good buddies who I hang out with multiple times a week.
• 28:29
  Brenda: Some are older than my parents and some are as young as 16 and everything in between.
• 28:33
  Brenda: It's a group of all different races, backgrounds, physical health, and ages who are extremely close with each other.
• 28:40
  Brenda: And people see us and wonder, this doesn't look like a work thing and people get very confused.
• 28:45
  Brenda: But that just goes to show you how powerful the program is.
• 28:48
  Brenda: It brings people of all backgrounds, races, creeds, and everything together.
• 28:53
  Brenda: And even last night I was at a poker game and my very close friends were talking about being in college and some of them are saying I graduated in 2010 and I was staying quiet because in 2010 I was in 7th grade.
• 29:05
  Brenda: So that's crazy.
• 29:06
  Brenda: They said we were here playing this poker game when you were in 8th grade.
• 29:11
  Brenda: Like we were all here and sober.
• 29:13
  Brenda: And I thought, yeah, I was just getting into high school and you guys were here sober having fun.
• 29:19
  Brenda: So it's really important to have a fellowship and sometimes it takes time to find that.
• 29:24
  Brenda: I've had the benefit of having to find a fellowship multiple times with my sobriety because I've moved multiple times and it's as easy as you make it.
• 29:33
  Brenda: This time around, I made it a little hard on myself because I moved and started a business and I made a decision that my life was so busy that I didn't want to go and find other meetings.
• 29:43
  Brenda: So I was only doing a meeting a week and I had a little bit of an ego because I had seven years of sobriety and I was like, I can just pull the ATM for a little bit and I'll be all right.
• 29:53
  Brenda: And it wasn't until I found a fellowship by what I believe is an act of God that I realized how bad my recovery actually was at the time.
• 30:01
  Brenda: And now I have a much more full life.
• 30:03
  Brenda: I feel absolutely amazing.
• 30:06
  Brenda: So the fellowship and everything in the program is like a pizza in my mind.
• 30:10
  Brenda: Your fellowship is like the bread, the meetings are the sauce, and all the perks you get from that are the toppings.
• 30:17
  Brenda: Even though people like the toppings the most, you don't get those without the bread and the sauce, right?
• 30:22
  Brenda: And so I think that's the best way to describe recovery.
• 30:24
  Brenda: You can't have just one without the others.
• 30:26
  Brenda: And if you do, it's not nearly as enjoyable.
• 30:30
  Janice: Peer support is easily one of the most important things in my program of recovery.
• 30:37
  Janice: I personally am a pretty extroverted person.
• 30:40
  Janice: So when I got to the rooms, it was easy for me to kind of like go early, stay late, talk to people.
• 30:47
  Janice: And like, I work with a lot of women who, uh, young woman at that.
• 30:50
  Janice: I have a sponsee who just turned 19.
• 30:53
  Janice: One of my good friends in recovery has been sober for almost two years and she's 18.
• 30:59
  Janice: That, like, it says, like, connection is the opposite of addiction.
• 31:03
  Janice: It's just, it's so important to establish a community within the fellowship or a sober community to get that support for reasons that I could list.
• 31:15
  Janice: for the rest of this call.
• 31:16
  Janice: There's so much of a benefit to that, not only feeling understood by the peers around you about the disease, about all that, but like, I remember even getting out of rehab in Arizona when I was like 17 or yeah, 18 and kind of like reaching out to friends that I had before and being like, yeah, I'm struggling with this.
• 31:35
  Janice: And the advice that I would get back just wasn't aligned.
• 31:39
  Janice: Just people that I talk to in my community right now, everyone within my community is someone that's sober, is someone that's in recovery.
• 31:47
  Janice: I very rarely find myself associating with people that aren't in AA or in the program just because the people I surround myself with are constantly looking to grow themselves.
• 31:59
  Janice: And in turn, they're constantly encouraging my growth too.
• 32:02
  Janice: That's just not something I find with like normies.
• 32:05
  Janice: So I think it's super important, especially for someone that's young.
• 32:09
  Janice: To find that support as far as how young people's meetings just getting into the rooms like 14 is really young, but like I said, I'm 25.
• 32:19
  Janice: I have a friend who's 18 and she's been sober for a few years and her and I are real close and just, yeah, just finding that support and, you know, It's kind of like recovery is that thing that crosses all of the age lines, right?
• 32:32
  Janice: Like I have a friend super young.
• 32:34
  Janice: I also hang out with people that are like 38 and 39 just because we're all in recovery and those are my people.
• 32:39
  Janice: We understand each other.
• 32:40
  Janice: We can sit down and have great conversations and share activities.
• 32:44
  Janice: We all have things in common and so that that's just my take on it.
• 32:48
  Megan: One of my best friends is 44 and the other one's 32 and then two of my other ones are 29.
• 32:54
  Megan: I am the youngest out of all my friends by at least a couple years.
• 32:59
  Megan: So you just kind of got to find people who you can relate to and you can spend some time with.
• 33:05
  Megan: When I was in high school, I got through until my junior year without drinking or smoking pot or anything like that.
• 33:16
  Megan: And then even the rest of high school I wasn't really drinking.
• 33:19
  Megan: So it's also just finding those people.
• 33:23
  Megan: Even if it's just in school, who just don't do that at that point.
• 33:27
  Megan: Cause all my friends in high school, they weren't drinking, they weren't smoking or doing anything like that.
• 33:33
  Megan: So I don't know necessarily what the recu the ages of recovery look like that young, since I was a little bit older.
• 33:39
  Megan: But it's going to be just finding people in the school who I think align with what you want to do.
• 33:45
  Brenda: I know peer support for adolescents is incredibly tricky and if you don't live in an area where there's strong wraparound services, you may be pulling your hair out trying to find out how to get some positive influence around your kiddo.
• 33:59
  Brenda: There are a few options that I'll put in the show notes.
• 34:02
  Brenda: Those include recovery high schools, mentors, young people, AA groups, APGs, which are alternative peer groups.
• 34:10
  Brenda: and young people in recovery.
• 34:15
  Brenda: Finally, we asked our incredible young people to share what their recovery looks like today and to give us their thoughts on the role of nicotine in recovery, which is a very hot topic with parents.
• 34:29
  Brenda: Take a listen to this.
• 34:30
  Brenda: We'll start with John's thoughts.
• 34:33
  Brenda: When I first got sober, for probably the first year and a half, it was a meeting a day, if not more.
• 34:38
  Brenda: And I tell my sponsees, Hey, if you're in rehab, you've got no reason not to be in a meeting.
• 34:44
  Brenda: The worse you're feeling, it's probably because you don't have enough meetings in you.
• 34:48
  Brenda: A lot of times when they call me complaining about whatever they're complaining about, I'll tell them, okay, did you pray?
• 34:54
  Brenda: And they say, no.
• 34:56
  Brenda: And I say, okay, go pray.
• 34:57
  Brenda: Call me back.
• 34:59
  Brenda: And they say, yeah, okay, I prayed.
• 35:01
  Brenda: And I'm like, cool.
• 35:02
  Brenda: Did you go to a meeting?
• 35:03
  Brenda: And they're like, no.
• 35:04
  Brenda: And then I say, well, then go to a meeting and call me back.
• 35:07
  Brenda: The meeting is the foundation and structure of early recovery to get you to hear as much as possible.
• 35:14
  Brenda: When you're new, you don't know anything about recovery.
• 35:17
  Brenda: And the way you gain that knowledge and wisdom is by listening to other people.
• 35:21
  Brenda: As an example, I had a buddy who was 17, and this kid had 18 months or something like that, and he was close in our fellowship.
• 35:28
  Brenda: We were all very, very close.
• 35:30
  Brenda: And by the time he had two years, he was saying things that were so wise and seasoned that you would have thought he had a decade of recovery under his belt.
• 35:39
  Brenda: And that's all because he was going to meetings all the time, sticking around with the right people and doing that.
• 35:44
  Brenda: So when my life's pretty good, like right now, as far as recovery goes, not super stressful, I have three meetings a week, and that's because my life right now is pretty mellow, nothing too crazy going on.
• 35:56
  Brenda: When my life gets a little more stressful, I'm bumping those meetings up.
• 35:59
  Brenda: I'm going to more meetings because it gets me out of here and it gets me listening to other alcoholics.
• 36:04
  Brenda: And hopefully I hear someone who has a way more stressful life than me, and that helps make my problems feel small.
• 36:10
  Brenda: I think for the first year or more of sobriety, you should be going to as many as possible.
• 36:15
  Brenda: And then as it goes from there, you can kind of take it as you want it.
• 36:19
  Brenda: But if you're in a good fellowship, you're probably going to get pressured if you're not going to multiple meetings a week.
• 36:25
  Brenda: So that's how meetings go for me.
• 36:27
  Brenda: The nicotine question, I think this is an important one.
• 36:30
  Brenda: I don't have any background in psychology or anything.
• 36:33
  Brenda: This is just my opinion, but I think it's super important for people to have that, especially early on.
• 36:39
  Brenda: I smoked everything else when I was in addiction, but when I got sober, I needed cigarettes.
• 36:44
  Brenda: I was like, I'm off everything else.
• 36:46
  Brenda: This is something to help me cope.
• 36:49
  Brenda: There's the hot topic of people's thinking that certain other substances aren't sober, but nicotine and tobacco specifically don't create a psychic change.
• 36:58
  Brenda: I'm not getting high off nicotine or tobacco, so I think it's totally fine.
• 37:02
  Brenda: I think it's a very helpful part of recovery, especially when you're new.
• 37:06
  Brenda: I think it could be something people need.
• 37:09
  Brenda: I mean, I know a lot of guys who vape and smoke and guys who don't and guys who are trying to quit and guys who have already quit.
• 37:16
  Brenda: I think especially when you're young, it's a good thing to have.
• 37:19
  Brenda: There's a profound amount of pressure when you're young and sober to not be that.
• 37:24
  Brenda: Because a lot of your friends aren't sober and people that you grew up with aren't sober.
• 37:29
  Brenda: And so they don't understand what you went through.
• 37:31
  Brenda: A lot of my high school buddies, who I'm close with, but not super close with, they don't know my full story.
• 37:37
  Brenda: And the ones that do are fully aware of why I am sober.
• 37:41
  Brenda: But a lot of people just don't get it.
• 37:43
  Brenda: And there's a lot of pressure like, Hey, can't you just have a joint or something like that?
• 37:48
  Brenda: And so for me, there were a lot of times in early sobriety where stepping outside to get out of a situation and have a cigarette was very, very helpful because maybe the cigarette didn't save me, but because I was able to go outside and go smoke, I was able to call my sponsor or call another alcoholic, or it created a window for me to make the next right action of picking up the phone and getting a hold of someone.
• 38:12
  Brenda: So, I think smoking is an important part of recovery.
• 38:16
  Brenda: There's a joke where if you're walking outside and you're passing by a church and you see a bunch of young people wearing all black smoking cigarettes.
• 38:24
  Brenda: You've probably found an AA meeting.
• 38:26
  Brenda: I was even in London one time and I was trying to find a meeting and I didn't know where it was and I saw a bunch of young people and some older people outside of a church smoking cigarettes and I walked up and I said is Is this a meeting and they were like, yep, and I said, okay cool It looks like patterns are the same no matter where you are So I think is a very important part of recovery But it doesn't need to stay around forever.
• 38:51
  Janice: Personally, I go to a meeting, uh, every day.
• 38:55
  Janice: It's a really important part of my morning routine.
• 38:57
  Janice: I go to a 7.
• 38:58
  Janice: 30 AM meeting.
• 38:59
  Janice: It starts my day off right.
• 39:01
  Janice: It's the way that I get my morning started because my alarm goes off, like I immediately roll out of bed and like I pray on my knees every morning.
• 39:08
  Janice: So like I do, I say my prayer.
• 39:10
  Janice: I read three different types of sober literature.
• 39:14
  Janice: Like, you know, I take my meds, I brush my teeth, and I do all that, and I've really noticed that when I don't go to my 7.
• 39:21
  Janice: 30 a.
• 39:22
  Janice: m.
• 39:22
  Janice: meeting, it's hard for me to do that routine because I'll wake up, I'll go on my phone, like, I'll do all this, and it'll kind of, like, throw off my day.
• 39:29
  Janice: So I always go to my meeting in the morning.
• 39:31
  Janice: And then, also, for me, like, right now, like, I work.
• 39:34
  Janice: I go to school and I work very, very part time.
• 39:37
  Janice: And so I have the time and there's a ton of evening meetings that I also love.
• 39:41
  Janice: I go to meditation meetings and I go to a meeting at my old outpatient, but it's at their residential.
• 39:50
  Janice: And I work with women in that program.
• 39:52
  Janice: Like I sponsor women in that program.
• 39:54
  Janice: So I go before that meeting to meet with them.
• 39:56
  Janice: And I pretty much go to two meetings a day and I've been doing that since.
• 39:59
  Janice: Since I started going to AA, probably two or three months into my recovery.
• 40:04
  Janice: So it's not like, again, like I have friends that go to less if that's just like, that's how I connect with my community.
• 40:11
  Janice: It's what I have time to do.
• 40:13
  Janice: My morning meeting is the most important to me.
• 40:16
  Janice: So at least one a day is like what I need for the nicotine.
• 40:19
  Janice: Yes, it does keep that.
• 40:23
  Janice: addictive part of your brain active.
• 40:26
  Janice: You know, I study psychology, I like to read science and articles about this stuff, and it's like, yes, it is, that is true.
• 40:33
  Janice: However, like, compared to any other substance I've ever put in my body, it comes nowhere near the effect produced by any other substance.
• 40:41
  Janice: Similarly, in the way where it's like, I don't like, they say the, the phenomenon of craving.
• 40:47
  Janice: I don't smoke a cigarette and like immediately crave another cigarette.
• 40:50
  Janice: I don't vape.
• 40:51
  Janice: I've never, I've never enjoyed vaping.
• 40:53
  Janice: And so I think that puts things into like a new ball game because the vapes are obviously really accessible.
• 40:59
  Janice: I think cigarettes are healthier for you.
• 41:01
  Janice: I just think that people do not know what comes into vapes.
• 41:04
  Janice: I buy an organic natural tobacco and I roll my own cigarettes.
• 41:07
  Janice: I smoke maybe, maybe.
• 41:09
  Janice: Two or three a day, if that's what I found has worked for me.
• 41:12
  Janice: Like I said, it just doesn't come close to the effect that any other substance has had on me.
• 41:18
  Janice: And it is like, yeah, I totally understand the mindset because it's like, when I get stressed, when I get irritated, I'm like, oh shit, like I need a cigarette.
• 41:26
  Janice: Like that thought comes to mind and that is a dangerous track for someone with the disease, you know, to look for a crutch and to be like, I feel uncomfortable.
• 41:37
  Janice: I need something to put in my body.
• 41:39
  Janice: So like, with that respect, yes, but it's like, it is so the lesser of two evils.
• 41:45
  Megan: Currently, I'm probably on the lesser side of my meeting schedule.
• 41:50
  Megan: In the beginning, in my first, I would say year and a half, it was A meeting at least almost every day, sometimes two a day.
• 41:59
  Megan: So I was doing, there was a point in time where I was doing seven and 12 meetings a week.
• 42:03
  Megan: That has gone down for sure.
• 42:06
  Megan: Right now I'm at one to two a week.
• 42:09
  Megan: Luckily I work in an environment where everybody I work with is an AA.
• 42:14
  Megan: Everybody I work with is sober for many, many years.
• 42:18
  Megan: So I work there full time and I kind of use that as more of a crutch at four meetings right now.
• 42:26
  Megan: Just cause it's really hectic at work right now, I'm there from 8.
• 42:29
  Megan: 30 to 6.
• 42:30
  Megan: 00 frequently.
• 42:32
  Megan: So that kind of gives me the opportunity to, if I need to talk about something or something happens, everybody who's there has the ability to walk with me through it and give good advice.
• 42:45
  Megan: So yeah, I'm on the lower side of meetings right now.
• 42:49
  Megan: Yes, vaping.
• 42:50
  Megan: I vape.
• 42:52
  Megan: I was smoking cigarettes for a while and then actually switched over to vaping.
• 42:58
  Megan: It's been a great topic, conversation we've tried quitting before as a group.
• 43:02
  Megan: I would not recommend that, because then everybody's just kind of not happy with each other.
• 43:08
  Megan: But, yeah, so I don't know about the whole psychological thing with vaping.
• 43:13
  Megan: I know that it is It's the lesser of two evils, for sure.
• 43:17
  Megan: I think that's always been my justification on it.
• 43:20
  Megan: I didn't actually start vaping until I got sober.
• 43:23
  Megan: So I don't really know about that whole aspect of it.
• 43:28
  Brenda: Okay.
• 43:28
  Brenda: Did I tell you it was a goldmine?
• 43:31
  Brenda: I would like to give a huge shout out to our three young adults who are very vulnerable and who generously shared their real life experience as they have gone through a lot of pain and a lot of suffering to get where they are today.
• 43:44
  Brenda: Thank you.
• 43:45
  Brenda: Their recovery is hard earned, and I want to acknowledge the vast amount of work that they and their parents did to arrive where they are today.
• 43:54
  Brenda: I hope you're encouraged, too, by the fact that these young folks were using extremely addictive substances, living extremely dangerous lifestyles at such a young age, and they were able to find recovery.
• 44:08
  Brenda: The path there probably didn't look anything like what their parents wanted it to look like, And it probably didn't follow the timeline that their parents would have liked to see, but they got there and they are all living incredible, fulfilling and positive, healthy lives today.
• 44:24
  Brenda: They all give back in service to others and they have huge wide open futures ahead of them.
• 44:31
  Brenda: So if your child isn't there yet, they are not there yet.
• 44:36
  Brenda: And if it's not happening on your timeline, it's still happening.
• 44:40
  Brenda: And if you want to give up.
• 44:41
  Brenda: Don't give up.
• 44:44
  Brenda: I would encourage you to download this episode, actually download it onto your phone so it's easily findable for those moments when you think this experience is never going to end.
• 44:55
  Brenda: When you can't imagine how your child's ever going to pull out of this or when you receive your gift of desperation and you're ready to take the next step on helping your entire family get healthier.
• 45:08
  Brenda: One next step that you can take that is pretty simple and it's free is to download an ebook I wrote called Worried Sick, a compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults who misuse substances.
• 45:21
  Brenda: It's meant to introduce you to a way that you can use tools like craft and motivational interviewing, plus self care, boundaries, and natural consequences to move your child to accept help for their substance use, which can start the healing process for other issues like mental health and behavioral conditions.
• 45:41
  Brenda: You can download that at hopestreamcommunity.
• 45:44
  Brenda: org forward slash worried.
• 45:47
  Brenda: Oh, deep breath, deep breath.
• 45:50
  Brenda: No, you're not doing this alone.
• 45:52
  Brenda: Know that there is real hope.
• 45:54
  Brenda: There's real healing and real help for what you're going through.
• 45:59
  Brenda: So be extra good to yourself today.
• 46:02
  Brenda: And I will meet you right back here next week.