Latest / Career Pivot 123 LLC presents: Attend the Tale: Where Career Change Becomes the Best Plot Twist! / Attend the Tale, Episode 1: Cathlyn Stahl - Part 2

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Attend the Tale, Episode 1: Cathlyn Stahl - Part 2 · Career Pivot 123 LLC presents: Attend the Tale: Where Career Change Becomes the Best Plot Twist!

• Darren Petronella: Okay, Cathlyn we're gonna kinda go back into the the question that I had asked that kind of led to your answer and you're gonna summarize for it again, is was there a moment on early on where you felt completely in your element and or completely lost? If you can kind of get into that. Thank you. Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Yeah. So when I was early in my career after I'd come out of univers out of my master's program from Ithaca, I had gotten an internship at USA swimming. And to be fair, I mean, it had taken me probably eight plus months to get that internship and to to get work in the world of of sports psychology even. outside of the the track coaching that I was doing, which I was mostly an assistant track coach and lightly sprinkling in sports psych when I could, but you know, not doing that a hundred percent of the time. so I was taking part time jobs and I was just working to pay bills at that point in time. And Darren Petronella: So this internship was that you were applying for the with the US swimming was was post undergrad. Got it. you. Post grad cool. Okay. Okay. Go ahead. Sorry. Cathlyn Stahl: post grad school actually. Yeah. Yeah. So it was after I had graduated grad school and I mean I went right into the track coach. I was working a retail job. I again just paying bills and that whole summer I started applying to jobs because the internships started posting in like the roughly I would say like the probably April May timeframe, posting for the this September time frame. And so it was very much going to be like a semester basis. And a lot of the internships were requiring or wanting people to be in a university program, like a grad school program, and then getting these internship hours as part of their work. And so for me, I had been roughly at the time I got the internship, it was about eight months after I had graduated. And so as I was going through the interview process, they'd even told me, like, well, we're really looking for people that are still in their master's program, but we're gonna take you because you're like a little bit more than six months removed from your master's program. Darren Petronella: Mm, okay. Cathlyn Stahl: So I kind of lucked out in that world and it was extremely competitive. I mean, it's even gotten more competitive in those internships even since then. And I mean that was a decade ago plus now. so it's even gotten way more competitive is since then. And so early in my in my internship, I mean, they had set me up with work to do. I was there for three months. I was done with some of the work that they had given me within like three weeks, and so I had asked them like What else what else do you want me to do? I'm here for another couple of months. I'm I'm willing to work. I'm willing to do anything. And I told them I was, I will do I'm like, I'll make photocopies if you need photocopies made. I'm I'm here, I'm getting paid for this. I might as well do something that's valuable. so at one point I was digitizing medical records because from like a decade plus ago, one of our directors came by and said, Hey, you know what, we we need to teach some of these swimmers. who have been in this pipeline from going professional. I mean, they were in a pipeline at a young age, identified that they were gonna be on a a junior national team and then maybe a national team and a U eighteen or any of those kinds of teams and then potentially go into an Olympic team. And so with that, they said, none of these athletes know anything about LinkedIn. None of these athletes know anything about a resume. Is there anything that you could teach them about that? And I said, Yeah, actually, that's a great idea. I can absolutely teach them anything. What where do you want me to start? And so that was actually where I started a little bit of the career coaching. And that's something that kind of came to me. And just because I was willing to take on anything at that point, I was willing to learn anything and I was willing to just be there and support the team as best best I could. Darren Petronella: Got it. Cathlyn Stahl: And so it was a moment where I said, Yeah, actually I've I've helped a lot of friends with their resumes in the past. And you know, I'm very adept at LinkedIn. I'd be happy to teach athletes about that. What's the format and the way that you want me to do that? so we sat down, we talked about it, we had created a plan, we basically figured out how we worked with a a program that I ended up working with that program a few years later. So it kind of all came full full circle. but that was one of the things I identified as this is something I really enjoy doing. I you know, I didn't enjoy doing some of the Like the you know, the medical record digitizing. That wasn't something I enjoyed doing that I would want to do long term, but it was something to piggyback on other work that had already been doing with them and to show Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: my value at the organization. So I Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: I mean I went around the entire department and just said, What do you need done? What can I do for you? Even if it's not right now, what do you need done? I'm here till December. And then that Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: pushed me into getting more work with them. And I moved into the foundation because they had loved me and and my work at the time. So They're like, we have an open spot in the the USA Swimming Foundation. Do you want to take that as an internship? And I said, great, let's just continue this work. So it was one of those moments where I was just saying yes to a lot of things. I think that I love that, you know, early in my career I had had an internship where we did a lot of improving as leadership Darren Petronella: Yeah. Cathlyn Stahl: coaches. And we did that intentionally with the people that we were teaching and teaching leadership Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: skills to. Because of that, that's where I really got a really deeper understanding of yes and. And so I my early career just started saying yes and. Now granted yes to everything under the sun, but I was anything that was like, yeah, that sounds interesting, I'll try it out. And yes, I will try that. And yes, I will try that. And I just kept exposing myself to a whole bunch of things. And that's where I started to identify what worked and what didn't work in in my world of work. Darren Petronella: Right. I love that you said yes and because as you know the theme of this whole thing is how dramatic Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: career pivots and changes and transitions can be. And in the Cathlyn Stahl: Of Darren Petronella: in the world of theater and especially in the world of improv, that that phrase yes and is always the mantra when you're in an improv, as opposed Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: to what Michael Scott from The Office would always do. Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: He would always try to like end a scene or say no, you know. Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: the yes and really applies to lots of life situations and this is a great example Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: of that in terms of you being open like you said you had the time you the you you were there for a set f period of time and they and they you were doing anything and everything that they asked you to do and it helped you to learn things and you got you're also building a good reputation along the way, you know, because you're like, okay give it to Kathleen, she'll get it done and she and she's a she knows LinkedIn. She knows resume right. She can figure out the software, etc. So Cathlyn Stahl: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Darren Petronella: that's a great, great point because the idea of, you know, embracing what the environment you're in, especially if you have you know, and you're o and you're being open to to all sorts of tasks that you maybe weren't anticipating to to do, but yet you were building your own resume along the way, right? And Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: and so the yes and approach is is fabulous. I think it's it's awesome. So let's talk now. So so that was kind of act one of what we're what our conversation is today, but let's get into now the pivot moment. So, was there a moment or at a at any point in time where you can remember whether it was a flash moment versus a slow burn? when did you realize or think that maybe something had to change in terms of what you were doing or where you were doing it? W so so tell us about like that kind of transition for you. Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah, there was a job early on and it was, you know, a full-time job I had gotten and I was loving the work I was doing, but it became really redundant. it was the same type of education, the same type of flow, the same, same, same of everything. And I was doing these kinds of facilitation moments either in a webinar virtually or in person. I was traveling a whole bunch around the country even. and the challenge was that it was getting a lot of rinse and repeat, which was fine. 'Cause you got you got it down. You knew exactly what you needed to say to everyone in the room. You the compliance information, science information, everything was just like down, down pat at that point. The challenge was like nothing new was coming in. There wasn't a lot of space for autonomy. There wasn't a lot of ability to really like make it your own. It was here is the presentation. You can kind of like flow a different way, but pretty much this is what we do. And when I tried to push back, I'm like, well, we could do this in a different way, because I don't think it's landing with the athletes in the same way. Like this is the same same type of thing we've done for several years. I think it's time to revamp it. And I got pushback on that. And I said, okay, that's fair. You know, you all have been doing this longer than me. So I'll listen to you all. and it got to a point where as I was growing in my own career and as I was starting to grow in my own skill set even and understanding more about myself, more about what I wanted to learn, I quickly figured out like, I'm not set up for just monotonous work. I like the work Darren Petronella: Mm-hmm. Cathlyn Stahl: that is a little bit different, a little bit you don't know what you're gonna expect some days. you know, some days might be chaotic, some days might be a little bit calmer, or you might walk into a client session and have no idea what they're gonna talk through today. And those are the moments that I think I I landed better with. And and not saying that I always like to be put on the spot by any means, but I think the monotonous routine I was getting into was getting so bland that I was struggling to see. what else is out there. And I was getting into the same task. I wasn't really getting added new skills or new tasks in that area. And I had identified like I'd love to learn more. I'd love to do X, Y, and Z. And unfortunately that just wasn't being put in into my professional development plan as we were talking through it. And so I made the decision. I had said, you know, I don't think this is for me. The the team that I had been working with at USA Swimming, they had connections to the team I had ended up going to at that point I had networked in a few other ways as well. But my networking was really what landed me into the career coaching world. and because of that, I had said to them, it was very transparent, like I don't have a career coaching background. Yes, I've done this unofficially for years for friends and colleagues and that kind of world or family members, but I don't have professional training on this. And they said, we can give you that. And I said, Okay, willing to take a course. And so they put me through a career coaching course, and I was, you know, facilitated by a a wonderful person, a wonderful coach. And I was in a small cohort, which was fantastic for my learning. And then it was just, okay, now I'm career coaching athletes. This is incredible. I'm still delivering education just in a different way. And now I'm helping people through a transition in life. so for me, I think it was it was really figuring out what are the skills that I'm missing and what are the skills that I want to add more into my plate. And I had realized as I was getting more exposed to things. I had I had obviously I always loved data collection. I'm I'm big into data collection, but I hadn't gotten enough of that in some areas. And so digging into some of those jobs, I was able to ask for more. I wanna build this skill set. Is that achievable? I wanna build this area of myself, is that achievable? is there a plan to set up? If not, I'm gonna do that some of my own too. So I think it's a balance of What can your career support in your own job and and the employer that you're working for? And then at one point, when do you take that into your own hands and take some of that education and skill sets into I'm gonna teach myself or I'm gonna go on YouTube or go on masterclass or any of those places and I'm gonna go find the information. Yeah. And just kind of teaching Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Right. Take that initiative. Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: yourself. And I I also think that's part of me of who I am as like a continual learner. always wanting to keep myself fresh in skills. I don't want to become stagnant. You know, I've I've looked at people in their careers when they become stagnant or complacent. And I've always said I don't want to be that person. So how do I not be that person? Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: by building all of these skill sets. So not to say that you're, you know, a jack of all trades and master of none by any means, but I think it's just it of that exposure has helped me understand again, going back to our interest conversation, what am I good at versus what am I interested in? And am I interested in things that I'm good at too? Or can I develop that that kind of level in the interest areas? Darren Petronella: Exactly. Right. And like you also said, if you are interested in something but you don't have that skill yet, okay, well let's find a way f to get me skilled, right? To tell skill and Cathlyn Stahl: Right, right. Darren Petronella: to train and whatever the case might be. that's great. So it didn't seem like it was like a real abrupt thing. It was obviously I mean it was obviously a lot of internal thinking and and you know, processing Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: things and and maybe talking to people along the way, like you said with the the training program and and other kinds of stuff. But Let me ask you from a personal reaction, were you ever feeling stressed about it? Was there any ever any anxiety Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: a w while you were kind of grappling with some of this stuff and or navigating the skills versus interests? Cathlyn Stahl: yeah. absolutely. I mean, there was a job offer at one point that was tearing myself apart and I, you know, talked with my spouse and I said, I I I mean, we were dating at the time and I said, I just don't think this is the right job for me. And he said, Well, it's a job offer. What's what's the challenge here? And I said, Yes, it's a job offer, but here's the thing, it was it was essentially trying to grow the sport of triathlon. And essentially was trying to get more women into triathlons. And I said, Darren Petronella: Okay. Cathlyn Stahl: as a woman myself, I have zero desire to go into any triathlon. I have a lot of respect for these athletes. But how am I supposed to then convince other women to get into it when I have no desire myself to do it? That feels false. That feels like it's going against my own virtues, my own values. And I don't feel like that's me being honest and being representative of and that just feels like a selling tactic, which is not authentic to me by any means. just for the sake of a sale or getting more people in. And I grappled with that for a while. And so there were a lot of moments when I was transitioning into that career coaching world that I was identifying some of these other jobs I was applying to and going, yeah, this feels realistic. Yes, I can do that, but do I want to do it at the end of the day? Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: coming back to. And my spouse and I had to have some really tough conversations because he was a person at the time that said, well, I could just do the job regardless if I like it or not. You know, like it's paying the bills, it's doing what you need to. And I'm like, that's great for you. That's not how I work and operate though. Like I have to be kind of bought into it. I have to be kind of passionate or excited about the work I'm doing. yes, there's always moments where you're gonna clock in, clock out, but for me, I can't have that as a hundred percent of my day or a hundred percent of my year in in that in that employer or that work. Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Cathlyn Stahl: so I think for for me, it was a little bit more of a slow burn in ways and getting exposed to some other job opportunities that were out there, but then really sitting with myself saying, This is not something I want. Why am I trying to push it and make and again, it was making myself fit into a box that I didn't fit into. and Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: I I kept identifying that at so many different parts of life and going, and I kinda just you take yourself out of it and you go, Why are you trying to shove yourself into this thing that might not make sense? You're trying to make it work and it might not work for you right now. And I think that's Darren Petronella: Right. Exactly. Cathlyn Stahl: that's where you have to do a lot of that, that sit sitting with yourself and and identifying what makes the most sense for you at the end of the day. Darren Petronella: Mm-hmm. Or talking to a coach or somebody else to process it, right? 'Cause Cathlyn Stahl: we're talking to a code. Yeah. Darren Petronella: sometimes getting somebody else's opinion who's not your husband or not you know, not not a family Cathlyn Stahl: of course. Darren Petronella: member. I'm gonna get to a family member question in a second, or maybe just a related question, but Sometimes you need somebody objective, right? Whether it's a coach Cathlyn Stahl: Exactly. Darren Petronella: or a counselor or whoever, just somebody who's like a third party, you know, somebody who doesn't live with you, somebody who you know what I mean? Like, I mean Cathlyn Stahl: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: it's great to talk to friends. I mean, we all like, you know, we lean on our friends and we all, you know, we we have conversations, whatever, we can give advice, take advice. But in the end, you you have to have somebody who's I I think, and this is why I I I course promote what we do, in i in the sense that, you know, having somebody who's can be an ally and a support, but somebody who's not gonna necessarily are gonna share the rent with you or you know, or or buy the groceries. You know what I mean? Like i it it has Cathlyn Stahl: Yes. Yes. Yes. Darren Petronella: that there's a little bit of that third that third party feel. so right. That's Cathlyn Stahl: And I think I didn't have that at the time, which was a challenge, but I've I've valued that so much more when I've been that career coach because I've seen that now from the other perspective of those people Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: who I've been in their shoes and now they can have a conversation with you. And it's just, hey, I'm a third party person. I'm just gonna post questions to you. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. It's your job, it's your life, it's your career. I'm Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: just gonna be here as a sounding board and help you think it out in all different scenarios. And it's beautiful Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: to see it from the other perspective now. Because at the time, like you said, I didn't have that coach near me. I didn't have a career coach that I could have. I just had those fa friends, family members, coworkers Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: and they all had biased opinions. And it's so refreshing when you can talk with someone who is unbiased in the situation. Darren Petronella: Exactly. That's exactly right. And that kinda leads into my next question. Were there people around you ex w or I should really rephrase this, what were people around you expecting you or expecting of you to do in these moments and how much did did their influence shape your path? Cathlyn Stahl: I would say my family in particular was very much pushing me to take certain certain positions and certain jobs, and very much were expecting me to be in a specific career path once I had identified Sport Psych is working for me. And I'm working with these NGBs, the national governing bodies, and you know, doing more with Team USA and our Olympic and Paralympic athletes. And there was a very strong push for my family to keep going down that path towards professional athletes and working at even higher levels. And I kept saying, That's not what I want. That's not what I want. And I wasn't being listened to. And so, and there were, I have some really incredible friends in my network and just in my space. And one of my best friends has been that sounding board to me. She can be that person that can be that, you know, unbiased perspective and just poses questions to you. And so many times I would go to her and say, you know, this is where I'm at right now. And of course, like similar worlds. We both went to Ithaca together at different we were just a year apart. and we both went through sports psych. We've both transitioned out of sports psych to a degree, but still use a lot of what we've learned in our career paths today. and it was one of those moments where you have the people in your corner, but you have to trust the people in your corner. And it's it's sometimes hard to identify who's in your corner for the right reasons and who's in your corner just trying Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: to tell you to do the thing because they they think that's what you want. so for my family it was very difficult conversations because I would tell them, This is not what I want. You keep trying to push me in this direction, it's not what I want. Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: And then I would go talk to, let's say, like one of my best friends, and she would say, Okay, well, what do you want? And I'd be Well, I don't know. And she's like, Well, great, you have to figure that out now. You know? And it was it was raw, real conversations that you would probably get from a career coach, just with a little less filtered of a view. and Darren Petronella: Right. Right, right. Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: there were so many moments where I could lean into those conversations with her in particular, or sometimes my spouse, or other friends and families. And then I got to a point where I was in a training. it was a it was a leadership type training that I was on site for, and I got to bounce ideas off of other people that I'd never known. We all worked in the same city, but we didn't know each other. None of us overlapped in any kind of space and work, and so we were all fresh and new into this program together for a week. And that also helped me get outside my own head, my own box in ways too. Just talking to Darren Petronella: Mm. Cathlyn Stahl: people that, yeah, I've never talked to ever since then. There's one person Darren Petronella: Exactly. Cathlyn Stahl: that I've remained very close with over the years. because we ended up working together later on, but it was one of those things where I still think back to that offsite. I still remember those leadership, that training that I went through, and still remember a lot of those people in the room, they were experiencing similar things at their stage of the career. And they had been even further in their career than I had been. So it was refreshing to me to to know that this isn't like a one time struggle. This is a struggle that you might have not s saying it's gonna be a struggle, but this is a conversation or thought process you might have multiple times in your life rather than just at one point in time. And I think for me, Darren Petronella: That comes. Cathlyn Stahl: I came from a family that was very much like you get your degree, you go down that career path, that's what you stick with for the rest of your life. Right. Versus diverting, like I've done. Darren Petronella: And you stay on the path. Right. And and that's and that's the issue. Right. It's true. I mean, because remember, think of like, you know, our parents or grandparents' generation, whether or not they had training, they would get into a job or a field and they would pretty much just stay in their lane for most Cathlyn Stahl: Yes. Darren Petronella: of that time, unless something happened and they had to change for whatever other reason. But they they stayed in their lane. And so Cathlyn Stahl: Okay. Right. Darren Petronella: for a lot of people, it's really hard to hear their relative, their sp whoever it is, to say, I don't really know, but I know I don't I know I don't want this. And and so Cathlyn Stahl: Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: and and then so so it could be a really interesting and and sometimes tense conversation with people who don't really get your perspective on that. Right. So but it speaks again to you know and speaks to your strength as well about you know being honest with yourself and and seeking out, you know, objective people but also friends and other people who are gonna be honest with you as opposed to just say what you want them to say. and Cathlyn Stahl: Yes. Darren Petronella: but also taking it in. you could you could take it in but ultimately it's your choices and your decisions. that's great. Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: so let's talk about now Well I'm gonna w let's talk about like what what do you think surprised you the most, if there it was anything surprising. about who you became when you completed one or more pivots in your careers in your career path so far. Like sometimes Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: things are just like unexpected. Sometimes you know things are just again we have no awareness of this. You know? So I'm just curious if if you ever had any like a surprise moment or like a whoa I didn't expect that to be the case or and it could be bad thing or a good thing. So what surprised you or if anything surprised you When especially on the other side of of a pivot choice. Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah, I think I think some things that have surprised me when I have pivoted is how divisive people can be about your own pivot. That to me that is so Darren Petronella: Hmm. That's a great that's a great point. Yeah. Cathlyn Stahl: surprising because, you know, I I've I've always been in the the thought process of like, well, it's you know, when I talk with c clients and I'm career coaching I'm like, it's your life, it's your decision, you get to make this decision. You get to choose when you make the decision. It doesn't even have to be today. It could be in five years if you wanted it to be then. and I think what surprised me was when I made those decisions and I knew I was right in making those decisions for myself, because they were the right decisions at the right time for me. Even though they were difficult or they were maybe anxiety provoking, or potentially even decisions I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work out at the end of the day, but I'm gonna try it anyway, and I'm gonna take the leap. And every single time I took the leap, I realized I landed on soft ground. I didn't land on a hard ground and and hurt my knees and fall down to the ground. I landed on soft ground. Yeah, it was a little softer, maybe it was a little muddier than I anticipated, but you got out of it and it dried up. And I think every single time I've looked at any of those pivots and been like, it was necessary. I needed to take it. And if I didn't Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: take it, what would my life look like at that point in time? I'm not sure. and Darren Petronella: Exactly. Cathlyn Stahl: I I think for me it was a moment of people getting really upset at you making those pivots. for your your own purposes. And it was a moment early on where I thought I had to explain myself to everybody. And then I realized very quickly, like even if I explain myself to you, it's still not hitting whatever it is in your brain that's like frustrated or upset or not understanding my pivot. And so I got to a point where I'm like, I don't have to explain it. I'm happy. Period. And that's kind of what I've leaned back on is like I've made those pivots. And what surprises me about it is the reaction at times to people, whether that's super positive or more like cautionary tales. Because I've had several of those where people are like, Are you sure that's a good idea? I'm like, Yes, it is. It's the right idea. It is and like you just feel it, you know it in yourself. but it's hard to explain that to other people when they don't feel that in themselves or they're questioning Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: you from an outside perspective and not seeing all of the details. Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: so yeah, that I think that's what massively surprises me is and realizing then in later years. I don't have to explain myself every time I've made a pivot. And then when I've talked with clients, I've explained to them how many times I've pivoted and they're like, okay, so it's normal. And so you're Darren Petronella: Yeah. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: normalizing the conversation. But exact again, going back to some of those folks, like different generations, that's very different conversations with some of those different generations because that was Darren Petronella: Yes. Cathlyn Stahl: a different expectation in the world of work. And look at how different the world of work is today compared to even 20 years ago, let alone forty, fifty, sixty years ago. You know what I mean? Darren Petronella: Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. A hundred percent. So what what shifting to a a different kind of question, but also about like reflection here, what skill or experience from your earlier career or old career turned out to be maybe a secret weapon for you? Like something that I'm so glad I had that experience because it really helped me in this context. Can you think of anything Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: that maybe was whether it's a a skill set or an experience or both? that you had Cathlyn Stahl: Está bien. Darren Petronella: in your earlier career that kinda ended up kinda coming full circle and say, this is really gonna be good for me to use this. Cathlyn Stahl: There are two moments that relate to each other very strongly that I still use today in my work. So one is my counseling classes. When I was in my sports psych degree, we had to take counseling classes. Now we weren't coming out as licensed counselors by any means, but we had to be exposed to counseling practices. and I remember there was an exercise our teacher ran us through and she was like, You can only ask questions to each other. You can't ask anything else. You cannot have a statement whatsoever. So you have to ask open-ended questions in particular. So you as the as like we were, you know, role playing. So like as the counselor, let's say, or as the sports psych person, I would be sitting there and I could only ask open ended questions. No matter what they said as their response, I had to respond back with another open ended question. I couldn't summarize, like it was just one of the tactics that we were practicing rather than putting it all together. Mm-hmm. Darren Petronella: So the response was a question. So so it was a question and then and then a question in response to that question, and like a like a pick ping pong in that way. Cathlyn Stahl: King Kong, yes. And so like we we we kept going back and forth on it. So like one person played the client, one person played the, you know, the the role, the other role. And so it was one of those moments that I can remember so clearly all of us struggling in that class because we all wanted to ask closed questions and you had to sit Darren Petronella: Sure. Cathlyn Stahl: there and think so difficultly and like sit in the moment and just pause. And again, it was a really helpful exercise just in the middle of class as we were learning about summarizing and as we were learning about all these other tactics that we use in counseling. But she had impressed on us that asking questions is one of the most important aspects of this work and of this world in general. F flash forward to when I was a leadership intern at IMG, improv again, we used a lot of leadership, we used a lot of improv skills. One of the improv games that our kids loved to play was the questions game. So you had two lines of of kids, one at the front of the line, and they just had to each ask questions back and forth. And as soon as you don't ask a question back, you're to the back of the line and the next person's up. And Darren Petronella: Ha ha ha. Cathlyn Stahl: we would have so much fun. And it would be random. It would be anything. As long as it's school appropriate, you know, because we're dealing with lots of kids, as long as it's appropriate, we don't care what the questions are. And it would be so much fun, but it gets you thinking about how many times you go into a conversation and you might be asking closed questions or open-ended questions and how you're asking questions. So there'd be times where us as the instructors would be purposely trying to like, you know, mess up the kids and we'd be asking an open-ended question and they'd intentionally be like, well, actually, shoot, I just missed it. And like us Darren Petronella: Yeah. Cathlyn Stahl: as ourselves as instructors, we were like as a group, we were like, okay, continue asking open-ended questions. And we just kept that that feeling up and that that kind of mantra going with ourselves of continue asking open-ended because the kids aren't thinking about that. They're only thinking about closed questions. And we were observing that. They're just going closed questions back and forth. Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: Those are two moments that have really shaped how I ask questions today. And it's so silly because one was based on improv, the other is based on like an improv light exercise as you're going through a class, you know, like a normal Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: class exercise. But those two stand out to me as that is how I've been able to ask better questions. And then of course, anytime I'm in a in a type of company, especially in like an all hands, I always pay attention to the people asking really intelligent questions. And I've always looked at how are they framing the question, what are they hoping to get out of the question, and how are they able to articulate it? And for me, like that to me is like one running theme throughout my throughout my career. Because as you know, in career coaching, you have to ask good questions. And it can't just be those closed ones. It has to be open-ended. But you also have to think about your wording sometimes and think about, okay, well, if Darren Petronella: Course. Cathlyn Stahl: I say it in this way, it's gonna not gonna hit with the client or they're gonna get a little reactionary to it. How can I Darren Petronella: Right. Mm-hmm. Cathlyn Stahl: ask it in a way that still facilitates a conversation? And that takes a different thought process to get into. And it's difficult when you're in your like early times trying to figure that out. Darren Petronella: yeah. Cathlyn Stahl: That is like a through line for me in my career that I think surprises me to a degree. Cause I I've been told in other ways, like you ask really good questions. And I'm like, okay. That's good to know. you know, it's a skill I'm continually Darren Petronella: Right, right. Cathlyn Stahl: practicing, continually utilizing. But it's just because Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: I've seen so many people do it that I'm like, I want to, I want to ask really good questions like they're doing. How do I get there? Darren Petronella: Right. Right. It's great. And it like it like you said also the having role models for other people but also practicing it over and over again in different contexts with different people and differ for different reasons, that that only helps to strengthen that that skill. Absolutely. Cathlyn Stahl: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Darren Petronella: all right, so a couple more questions and then we're gonna wrap this up. maybe three. Maybe four. if you could send if you could send one piece of advice back to yourself earlier Cathlyn Stahl: Okay. Darren Petronella: in time, so like back to the future kind of thing. If you could Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah, yeah. Darren Petronella: if you could send one piece of advice back to yourself at the moment of a big decision, like a pivot or transition of some kind, what would it be? One piece of advice. Cathlyn Stahl: Trust your gut. Period. Trust your gut. You already know the answer. Stop trying to talk your way out of it. Trust your gut Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: and make the decision, even if it feels scary. And the thing I always tell people, and especially like I've had to relearn this later in my life, is do it scared. You're not if you wait till you're ready, you're never gonna be ready to do it. So do it scared and trust your gut when you're doing it. Darren Petronella: Right, trust your gut. Excellent. and okay, so last question. what's the one line of your tale That you'd want the audience to take with them today? Meaning like it doesn't have to be like something that you already said. It could be like some maybe it is one line, maybe it's something that you've already said. would be the one thing that you would like the takeaway for today's audience who's watching this and watching two people who work in a similar kind of capacity, but talking about our experience talking about your experience? what would be that one line? Cathlyn Stahl: I would say just one line. You know I'm a copper, but that's hard to get down to one. Darren Petronella: I know. I know. It's not it's not easy. Cathlyn Stahl: I would say if if I just had one line, I would I would immediately just say I'm I'm not gonna say press for gut again, I promise. Darren Petronella: Don't say trust your gut, you can't use trust your gut again. Cathlyn Stahl: I will say You're gonna ch you're gonna change careers and it's okay. Period. It's okay. It's nor it's normal. It's expected. the world of work has changed so significantly that it's okay to change jobs, it's okay to change skills, it's okay to be a continual learner. It's okay if you've been in the same spot for a while and now you wanna pivot to something different after twenty years, let's say, or thirty years. Like, that's fine. Do it. Do it do it scared and lean into a career coach for support because it Darren Petronella: Right. Right. Cathlyn Stahl: I swear it helps. But I would absolutely say career change is normal. Don't be afraid of it and just lean into it as much as you can whenever it feels right to. And even if it doesn't feel right, but you're kind of considering it, talk to somebody about it. And I guarantee like you'll get the support that you're looking for, especially from somebody like you. but you know, like there's career coaches all across the the country. Like consider talking with someone who knows what they're talking about in this world and bounce ideas off of them. But don't be afraid to do a career change no matter how long you've been in a career. And and even if you're ready to get out and do something different, or you've unfortunately been laid off. Do it. It's okay. It's normal. it's just gonna be a little tougher and it's gonna go back to basics in some way, but we all have to do it at some point in time for something in Darren Petronella: Right. Cathlyn Stahl: life. you know, so I would say just do it afraid in in a lot of different ways, but also don't Darren Petronella: Yeah. Cathlyn Stahl: be afraid to career change. It's completely, completely normal nowadays. and it's more common than people are seeing, especially in younger generations too. and the world of work has just made that a little bit more accessible, I think, in some ways at times. So yeah. I would say it's normal, do it, it's okay and trust your gut. Darren Petronella: Right. I knew it. actually really this is really the last question. T tell us Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Darren Petronella: something else. Well actually what's your what's your favorite ice cream flavor? Cathlyn Stahl: Ooh, okay. So back in New Jersey where I'm Yeah, no no, I won't there is only one that comes to mind. Darren Petronella: You get one, you only get one. Don't say you two or three. Cathlyn Stahl: back in New Jersey, there's this amazing place that 'cause I'm originally from New Jersey, so there's this amazing place that we used to get ice cream at and they had a flavor called double dark chocolate fudge crunch. And that is hands down the best flavor of ice cream ever. So Double Dark Chocolate Fudge Crunch Amazing. It is absolutely amazing. Darren Petronella: Double dark, what is it called? Double dark awkward function. Wow. That's that's a lot of words for I'm sure very delicious, very delicious Cathlyn Stahl: Ha ha ha. Darren Petronella: sounding flavor. Now I gotta now I gotta find where find that in New Jersey. Because I'm actually going to New Jersey further soon. So okay. Kathleen Stall, thank you so much for being Cathlyn Stahl: Yeah. Thank you. Darren Petronella: here. Thank you for your insights, thank you for your stories. we I think our our audience will very much take that in and hopefully apply it. you you really, really were generous with your time and and your perspective, so thank you so much for being our very first guest on Attend the Tale. Cathlyn Stahl: Course. Thank you for having me. So excited to be number one. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. This has been a great conversation. Darren Petronella: thank you so much. Attend the tale is brought to you by Career Pivot 123 LLC. Go to CareerPivot123.com to learn about our services and contact us. if you're feeling stuck and at a crossroads, wondering which path to take next, you're not alone. Check out the Prosper Pilot, your career clarity accelerator, a comprehensive career exploration tool designed to cut through the confusion and give you a clear, personalized roadmap forward. Find out more and get started today at careerpivot.com slash services. Here's what you'll get. a personalized career report tailored to your goals and accelerate your career exploration in the fraction of time. Thank you for listening and watching everyone today. We'll see you in the next episode. Have a great day.