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Why Is the Church of England Investing in Porn and Weapons? · UK Column Radio

0:38
Speaker 1: Charles Mallett, thank you for joining me in the trenches.
0:41
Speaker 2: Thanks very much for having me. It's a great well,
0:44
Speaker 2: just what we were saying before we started recording. It's
0:46
Speaker 2: lovely to have the chance to talk again after quite
0:48
Speaker 2: a period of time.
0:50
Speaker 1: Something I think about quite often is what is society
0:54
Speaker 1: going to think about us one hundred years from now.
0:56
Speaker 1: They're going to look back at this era, the twenty
0:59
Speaker 1: twenty era, and are they going to Are they going
1:03
Speaker 1: to think you bunch of idiots?
1:07
Speaker 2: It is a very very good question, and that is
1:10
Speaker 2: something I spend a lot of time considering, not not
1:13
Speaker 2: that way round, but the other way around. What were
1:16
Speaker 2: people actually thinking one hundred years ago or two hundred
1:19
Speaker 2: years ago? I think we we are infested by a
1:25
Speaker 2: version of history, either macro or micro, which suggests that
1:30
Speaker 2: people only really did or thought one thing, and the
1:33
Speaker 2: idea that there was any counter narrative or opposition thought
1:38
Speaker 2: is like it is today, always treated as something other,
1:42
Speaker 2: and and that cannot it cannot simply be the case
1:46
Speaker 2: that we, in the sort of early twenty first century
1:51
Speaker 2: are the first people to consider that dissent is appropriate
1:55
Speaker 2: and that all we see around us is not quite right.
1:57
Speaker 2: That has been going on forever. But of course, as
2:00
Speaker 2: we know, history is written by the victors, and so
2:04
Speaker 2: this thread, and you know you're what you've been doing
2:08
Speaker 2: over the years with your podcast, You've absolutely picked away
2:11
Speaker 2: at some of this. But the thread that we are
2:14
Speaker 2: clinging to one end of now runs the whole way
2:17
Speaker 2: back through history. But the difficulty, of course is interrogating it.
2:20
Speaker 2: How on earth do you really find out what people
2:23
Speaker 2: did think because those ideas then, just as they are now,
2:27
Speaker 2: were repressed and even what people wrote down either would
2:32
Speaker 2: have been you know, on a very sort of local level,
2:34
Speaker 2: just in their journals or memoirs, or kept to a
2:37
Speaker 2: family level. And of course, you know, this was well
2:40
Speaker 2: before the Internet. I'm not suggesting that the Internet is
2:42
Speaker 2: the only way that material gets around the place, but
2:45
Speaker 2: once something's out there, nowadays it is a bit more
2:49
Speaker 2: difficult to put the lid on it. Whereas previously, I
2:52
Speaker 2: think the not so much the way in which stuff
2:56
Speaker 2: was just disappeared, but the way that it was overlaid
2:59
Speaker 2: by the correct version of events, it was remarkable.
3:05
Speaker 1: I'm trying to find a segue into our main talking point,
3:08
Speaker 1: which is the Church of England. But I think there
3:10
Speaker 1: is a type of segue occurring here, which is when
3:14
Speaker 1: you go against institutions historically, you always get cast out.
3:20
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, in fact, I would say that the
3:22
Speaker 2: segue is even more direct. We think we understand the
3:26
Speaker 2: history of it doesn't really matter whether it's the Church
3:29
Speaker 2: of England or any faith or any organization. But of
3:33
Speaker 2: course the version that we receive is the version that
3:36
Speaker 2: they want us to receive. So the idea now that
3:40
Speaker 2: the Church of England, although it's current iteration is relatively modern,
3:46
Speaker 2: it suggests that actually it does hark back to the
3:50
Speaker 2: earlier centuries of the first millennium, and we don't know,
3:56
Speaker 2: we weren't there. We can't make that judge. But look
4:01
Speaker 2: exactly like you say that the church, whether it's the
4:03
Speaker 2: Church of England or any other religious organization, has you
4:08
Speaker 2: know that the way in which it treats people, either
4:12
Speaker 2: within or without I mean, is absolutely stark. And I
4:15
Speaker 2: think again to segue, I think what I and those
4:19
Speaker 2: that have investigated any of this have found so completely
4:23
Speaker 2: extraordinary is actually what does fit within the church camp now?
4:29
Speaker 2: Because I would say anybody with faith Christian faith, who
4:33
Speaker 2: may either peripherally or in a more involved sense be
4:37
Speaker 2: a part of the Church of England would be absolutely
4:39
Speaker 2: amazed to find out what the Church does encompass by
4:44
Speaker 2: virtue of certainly its investments, but the sorts of connections
4:48
Speaker 2: that it has across the world are, on the face
4:53
Speaker 2: of it, utterly contrary to the sort of central tenets
4:58
Speaker 2: of Christianity, very very peculiar. And if you do challenge
5:03
Speaker 2: your question that as again the approved version of history suggests,
5:07
Speaker 2: the end for you is not going to be a
5:09
Speaker 2: good one.
5:11
Speaker 1: Just for a very quick context, I was looking up
5:14
Speaker 1: the history of the Church of England because a lot
5:16
Speaker 1: of people don't actually know, but you could technically say
5:20
Speaker 1: it started around the first to the fourth century technically
5:24
Speaker 1: but officially with King Henry the Eighth, who wanted to
5:27
Speaker 1: get divorced.
5:30
Speaker 2: Exactly. Well, I mean, what a completely bizarre premise for
5:34
Speaker 2: the foundation of a body that has persisted until now
5:38
Speaker 2: and become incredibly powerful, even though it might not seem it.
5:41
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is again slightly discordant. Is
5:43
Speaker 2: that you know, for most people, the Church of England
5:45
Speaker 2: is sort of, you know, a smattering of old ladies
5:48
Speaker 2: turning up on a Sunday, dwindled in congregations not really
5:52
Speaker 2: much influence. But in actual facts, that's the perhaps the
5:57
Speaker 2: public view of it, that there's much more that goes
6:00
Speaker 2: on beneath the surface. And that's the bit I think
6:03
Speaker 2: that people are detached from and don't don't really understand.
6:08
Speaker 2: But yes, I mean, I think you're absolutely right.
6:11
Speaker 1: I think also just for added context, the Church of
6:14
Speaker 1: England is not just a church that is in England.
6:16
Speaker 1: It is an incredibly powerful branch of the Church. I mean,
6:21
Speaker 1: I think it's the head of Anglican International basically, and
6:25
Speaker 1: the King James Bible I think comes from the Church
6:28
Speaker 1: of England.
6:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely that, that is absolutely the case. And I
6:33
Speaker 2: think there's a bit more. Sorry, it's as though there's
6:37
Speaker 2: been some sort of divine intervention. You'll notice that my
6:40
Speaker 2: lantern behind me has started to flame slightly more than
6:44
Speaker 2: it was meant to. Let me just let me just
6:45
Speaker 2: turn that down. It must be it must be switching
6:48
Speaker 2: to Catholicism. You know, I'm Redland of the Vatican. Hang
6:51
Speaker 2: on attack, right there we go? Sorry about that.
6:55
Speaker 1: Hell now, I was just saying that the Church of
6:58
Speaker 1: England is very very powerful.
7:01
Speaker 2: Actually, oh yeah, yeah, it is.
7:04
Speaker 1: In fact, did you say its dwindling.
7:06
Speaker 2: Well, this is maybe this is what I mean that
7:08
Speaker 2: the it was about the Anglican Communion that the Church
7:14
Speaker 2: of England does have dw England dwindling congregations. It's not
7:19
Speaker 2: across the board. Actually, that's that is representative. I think
7:23
Speaker 2: some of the some of the urban churches, metropolitan congregations
7:28
Speaker 2: are absolutely swelling, but so are those of other churches
7:32
Speaker 2: other organizations as well. I think, really what I mean
7:35
Speaker 2: talking about the dwindling congregations the it's not so much
7:39
Speaker 2: the influence of the church, but the part of the
7:41
Speaker 2: church played in the lives of the community at large.
7:45
Speaker 2: And I think if one went back fifty years, one
7:48
Speaker 2: hundred years, certainly there would have been a more uniform
7:53
Speaker 2: relationship with the church, whether you were in the rural
7:56
Speaker 2: environment or the urban environment. But the percentage of people
8:00
Speaker 2: that would go to church and therefore the place that
8:05
Speaker 2: the church had in that community was more significant, or
8:08
Speaker 2: at least more generally significant, I think, than it is now.
8:12
Speaker 2: But then the other thing that you quite rightly point
8:15
Speaker 2: out is that the Church, whilst Church of England is
8:17
Speaker 2: sort of notionally the focal point of the wider Anglican communion,
8:23
Speaker 2: so churches that are in other parts of the world,
8:25
Speaker 2: mostly former British territories and colonies. Their relationship with the
8:29
Speaker 2: Church of England has become much more tempestuous over the
8:32
Speaker 2: last few years. And good is really the way to
8:36
Speaker 2: view that, I would think, because they are calling into
8:39
Speaker 2: questions some of the policies, some of the stances, some
8:42
Speaker 2: of the behaviors and the failings that the Church of
8:45
Speaker 2: England has demonstrated in the UK over well certainly decades.
8:52
Speaker 2: It's completely peculius, there's not It shouldn't be a surprise
8:54
Speaker 2: that the wider Anglican communion doesn't perceive the Church of
8:59
Speaker 2: England to be as significant as it would like to
9:02
Speaker 2: think that it is.
9:05
Speaker 1: Let's unpack that that that internal strife a little bit.
9:11
Speaker 2: Well quite where it comes from it is very hard
9:17
Speaker 2: to say, but I think again we go back to
9:20
Speaker 2: the history of it and this you know that this
9:24
Speaker 2: may rankle with with people who are church goers or
9:29
Speaker 2: who have faith, and I absolutely don't mean it to
9:32
Speaker 2: come across like this, but I think the way one
9:34
Speaker 2: must perceive it is that the Church, as with so
9:38
Speaker 2: many organizations, has the ability to be used as a
9:42
Speaker 2: control mechanism and if you look at the incredible battles
9:49
Speaker 2: as it were, either sort of real or virtual, academic
9:54
Speaker 2: or whatever, that have been fought over the or is
9:59
Speaker 2: between the faiths and religions. It seems quite clear that
10:04
Speaker 2: that is a very very important part of what it does.
10:08
Speaker 2: And therefore, you know, you referred to Henry the eighth
10:13
Speaker 2: and all that. But so we've got the part of
10:17
Speaker 2: the church that, as I say, that is visible, so
10:20
Speaker 2: the sort of the clerical body, the congregations, the church buildings,
10:23
Speaker 2: all of that. But then the bit that's not really
10:26
Speaker 2: talked about is the enormous amount of land that it controls,
10:30
Speaker 2: but also the huge amount of funding that it sits
10:34
Speaker 2: on top of, or funds rather that it has amassed
10:39
Speaker 2: over time. And so the question is, you know, how
10:42
Speaker 2: has that come about and to what end? And I
10:45
Speaker 2: think this brings one to the central point, which is
10:48
Speaker 2: how does one really view the church? And for me
10:53
Speaker 2: increasingly so and as I say this is this is
10:55
Speaker 2: absolutely not with a view to calling into question anybody's faith,
10:59
Speaker 2: because I think that that's a separate issue and that
11:02
Speaker 2: should be a personal thing, and it's not really for
11:04
Speaker 2: the church to tell you how you should believe in
11:07
Speaker 2: what your relationship with God should be. But the Church,
11:13
Speaker 2: in actual fact, in many ways could be regarded as
11:16
Speaker 2: similar in its conduct. To say that the pharmaceutical industry,
11:19
Speaker 2: I think the scales have fallen from people's eyes when
11:22
Speaker 2: it concerns the pharmaceutical industry. If you think about the
11:24
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical industry now, it's patently obvious that if it worked
11:30
Speaker 2: in that their products made people well, it would bring
11:33
Speaker 2: about its own demise. That would be the end of it.
11:35
Speaker 2: So it doesn't want well people. It needs unwell people,
11:39
Speaker 2: which means it needs to produce products that are going
11:42
Speaker 2: to keep people in a consistent state of unwellness. And similarly,
11:47
Speaker 2: the church, now, if the world was peaceful, harmonious, happy,
11:53
Speaker 2: all the things that the church at its center sort
11:57
Speaker 2: of preaches about, and therefore that people felt that they
12:00
Speaker 2: had less need to go to church too, to join
12:06
Speaker 2: in order to pursue these outcomes, then it would it
12:12
Speaker 2: would defeat part of its purpose certainly. And and and
12:15
Speaker 2: I think when one looks at the the way that
12:18
Speaker 2: it profits financially from the negative sides of life. You know,
12:25
Speaker 2: we can go into the detail of this in a bit,
12:29
Speaker 2: but but it would you know, it would really it
12:31
Speaker 2: would really undermine its its position. And again I think
12:35
Speaker 2: I think that's not really thought about it. But ultimately,
12:38
Speaker 2: as either a control mechanism or as an entity, I
12:41
Speaker 2: think it should be it should really be considered more
12:43
Speaker 2: in corporate terms or in a corporate sense than anything else.
12:48
Speaker 1: What is the point of the church?
12:52
Speaker 2: Then, well exactly, and that's the that is. That's not
12:58
Speaker 2: a you know, not a dark question. It's not a
13:00
Speaker 2: facetious question either, because I think this is exactly what
13:02
Speaker 2: the church has got itself into such an enormous muddle
13:07
Speaker 2: about over the last few years. But again it's the
13:10
Speaker 2: it's a sort of you know, horse and cart thing,
13:15
Speaker 2: which bit is driving which and how has this actually
13:20
Speaker 2: come about? But you know, just some of the issues
13:21
Speaker 2: that when I looked into the investment policies, which I
13:25
Speaker 2: mean I can go into a bit of detail, but
13:27
Speaker 2: they's put it this way. The most recent reports says
13:31
Speaker 2: that the church sits on ten point four billion pounds.
13:34
Speaker 2: Now that that's on the face of it, that that's
13:36
Speaker 2: a significant amount of money. Okay, if you're only going
13:40
Speaker 2: to be returning say four to five percent yielding rather
13:45
Speaker 2: from that every year than actually what you do have
13:47
Speaker 2: at your disposal is not perhaps as much as people
13:50
Speaker 2: might think, but it necessarily is. But then again, what
13:53
Speaker 2: do you do with that and how are you actually
13:55
Speaker 2: investing it? And are you investing it in such a
13:58
Speaker 2: way that should be about the things that you are
14:01
Speaker 2: talking about, so you know, the sanctity of the human form.
14:05
Speaker 2: For example, what's the church's policy on things like transgenderism,
14:12
Speaker 2: or on female genital mutilation or this, that and the other.
14:17
Speaker 2: I mean, are their investment policies consistent with their messages
14:22
Speaker 2: and indeed things like affirming human life to give a
14:25
Speaker 2: very good example, just recently, we've had the assisted dying
14:30
Speaker 2: Bill being pushed I mean another iteration of the assisted
14:33
Speaker 2: dying Bill being pushed through the houses of Parliament and
14:35
Speaker 2: as extremely controversial by any metric, but not least because
14:41
Speaker 2: it basically enables people to have social pressure put on
14:45
Speaker 2: them to go to a doctor to say, right, finish
14:48
Speaker 2: me off, and for the doctor not to be checking
14:54
Speaker 2: in the proper sense of the word, as in preventing,
14:57
Speaker 2: you know, providing an obstacle to that process. And so
15:00
Speaker 2: the Church put out a statement about this in which
15:03
Speaker 2: it called it affirming. I think it was the affirmation
15:06
Speaker 2: of life. Was that their statement, and they wrote words
15:11
Speaker 2: to the effect of, you know, we don't believe that
15:15
Speaker 2: this is the right way to go. We don't believe
15:17
Speaker 2: that people should be sort of in control of ending
15:19
Speaker 2: their own lives like this, and that it should not
15:21
Speaker 2: be I wrote it down. In fact, it should not
15:26
Speaker 2: be something that somebody else could do. No one ought
15:30
Speaker 2: to be permitted actively to end another person's life. That
15:33
Speaker 2: was the phrase they used.
15:34
Speaker 1: That sounds good.
15:35
Speaker 2: It sounds good, doesn't it. Yeah, And then you think, right, well,
15:39
Speaker 2: if that's the case, then they would regard conflict on
15:45
Speaker 2: a military scale as not right, because that is absolutely
15:51
Speaker 2: all about actively ending other people's lives. And yet their
15:56
Speaker 2: investment policies are such that they may invest in production
16:00
Speaker 2: of military grade weapons. Now those will only be used
16:05
Speaker 2: to actively end another's life. So it's absolutely enormous contradiction.
16:13
Speaker 2: And exactly the same with say, transgenderism, where in affirming
16:19
Speaker 2: the form that we are created in, at the same
16:25
Speaker 2: time they celebrate the mutilation of the body in an
16:31
Speaker 2: apparent effort to become quite what at somebody else. And
16:38
Speaker 2: in fact, you know, they go further with transgenderism. They
16:44
Speaker 2: have a specific clause in fact about people who are
16:48
Speaker 2: wanting to become confirmed into the Church of England concerning
16:53
Speaker 2: trans people, thought I thought i'd quote this because I
16:55
Speaker 2: think this is interesting. So they say, the Church of
16:59
Speaker 2: England welcome and encourages the unconditional affirmation of trans people
17:04
Speaker 2: equally with all people within the Body of Christ, and
17:08
Speaker 2: rejoices in the diversity of that body into which all
17:13
Speaker 2: Christians have been baptized by one spirit. It's amazing on
17:22
Speaker 2: many levels. I think this actually I quoted in an
17:27
Speaker 2: article about what I saw as being incredible contradictions between
17:32
Speaker 2: criticism of or adherents to what's described as female genital mutilation,
17:39
Speaker 2: circumcision and then transgender surgery, and the conflicted positions that
17:46
Speaker 2: not just the church.
17:47
Speaker 1: But I'm interrupting body, Why what would be their reason?
17:53
Speaker 2: Exactly what would be their reason? This is I think
17:56
Speaker 2: for people, you know, going back to people who are
18:00
Speaker 2: consider themselves to be part of the Church of England,
18:01
Speaker 2: who do go to church, who believe that there should
18:04
Speaker 2: be a strong relationship between the faith that they hold
18:07
Speaker 2: and what they see when they go to church as
18:11
Speaker 2: a congregant in terms of their participation, and this I
18:16
Speaker 2: don't see how this fits with it also, you know,
18:19
Speaker 2: and this is across the board when it comes to
18:22
Speaker 2: anything concerning sort of transgenderism. If they're use in the
18:26
Speaker 2: phrase equally with all people, well, it's were straight back
18:29
Speaker 2: to animal farm. I mean, why are you making these
18:32
Speaker 2: people more equal? In which case, why can't you just
18:37
Speaker 2: not put it like that? And yet this is you know,
18:42
Speaker 2: this is across the board. It's it just goes on
18:46
Speaker 2: and on and on and again. You know. Another sort
18:50
Speaker 2: of area of contradiction, not not too far distant perhaps
18:54
Speaker 2: from the transgender thing, is the is the same sex
18:58
Speaker 2: same sex marriage. And you know, again they've they've twisted
19:03
Speaker 2: themselves up about exactly this and what they should do
19:06
Speaker 2: and what they should say, and it's been inconsistent, hard
19:09
Speaker 2: to follow, and controversial. And now the situation is that
19:12
Speaker 2: they will bless same sex couples. But so then you think, right, well,
19:17
Speaker 2: is that consistent? I mean, what's the what's the biggest
19:20
Speaker 2: issue here? If people are wanting to get married in
19:23
Speaker 2: a church, then is the first step to consider whether
19:28
Speaker 2: or not they hold the values of that organization and
19:33
Speaker 2: therefore a belief in the things that that church says
19:38
Speaker 2: it believes in. So you think Okay, well, maybe that's
19:42
Speaker 2: the path that they would go down, but in actual
19:46
Speaker 2: fact that's not the case because whilst if you're a
19:51
Speaker 2: same sex couple you may not get married in the
19:53
Speaker 2: Church of England, if you belong to another faith altogether,
19:58
Speaker 2: you can be married in a church church. You can
20:02
Speaker 2: be married in a church if you don't have any
20:04
Speaker 2: faith at all, So you don't there's no requirement to
20:08
Speaker 2: say that you actually believe in God or Jesus or
20:13
Speaker 2: any you know, any aspect regarding divinity. And then to quote,
20:20
Speaker 2: it is also possible and actually this would be an
20:23
Speaker 2: interesting one, bearing in mind what's just happened with the
20:25
Speaker 2: Supreme Court decision on sex meaning biological sex. But they
20:32
Speaker 2: say the church thing says that a man or woman
20:35
Speaker 2: who has been issued with a gender recognition certificate may
20:39
Speaker 2: marry someone of the opposite sex in the Church of
20:42
Speaker 2: England church. So there we are. It's I mean, how
20:50
Speaker 2: do you make sense of that? And you know, to quote,
20:55
Speaker 2: well misquote probably, but Brian Gerish, who his consistent message
21:01
Speaker 2: on UK column is that you know, all of this
21:05
Speaker 2: is entirely intentional. The confusion is entirely intentional. And actually,
21:10
Speaker 2: just to quote somebody else who I've now interviewed a
21:13
Speaker 2: couple of times for UK column obviously in some sense
21:16
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with it, but in others everything
21:18
Speaker 2: to do. It's Julian Rose, who who's a massive and
21:21
Speaker 2: passionate advocate of all things concerning the land and how
21:26
Speaker 2: to sort of create food properly and indeed relationships and
21:28
Speaker 2: communities properly. And he will, he would say, you know,
21:33
Speaker 2: if you don't understand, it's not you not understanding, it's
21:36
Speaker 2: they don't know what they're talking about. They are talking
21:39
Speaker 2: complete and utter nonsense. They have lost they have absolutely
21:43
Speaker 2: lost their way. And I think for church leaders, if
21:49
Speaker 2: that's what we're going to call them, although we can
21:52
Speaker 2: come on to exactly where Justin will be fits in
21:55
Speaker 2: with that, but the church leaders, much like any other leaders,
21:59
Speaker 2: have to have lost their way. I mean, I saw
22:02
Speaker 2: yesterday a clip of kirsed Armor and Angela Rainer waddling
22:07
Speaker 2: along at some Pride event holding up little sort of
22:14
Speaker 2: placards with the transgender sort of from the transgender flag,
22:20
Speaker 2: the colors the baby blue and the baby pink and
22:23
Speaker 2: the white, and you know, why would they do that?
22:27
Speaker 2: Why are they actually doing that? And what does it
22:30
Speaker 2: mean why if we're talking about surgically removing people's genitals,
22:36
Speaker 2: why are the colors that were chosen for that flag
22:40
Speaker 2: not just baby blue and baby pink, but actually said
22:44
Speaker 2: by the artist who created the flag said to be
22:48
Speaker 2: baby pink and baby blue. Why are we representing babies
22:53
Speaker 2: when we're talking about removing genitalia? And why is the
22:57
Speaker 2: Church of England engaging with any of that in the
23:00
Speaker 2: first place. That's a rhetorical question, I think. But I mean,
23:06
Speaker 2: you know, this is just it's one of the very,
23:10
Speaker 2: very very many contradictions and that so there are two
23:13
Speaker 2: sides of it. I mean that there's absolute overlap, but
23:15
Speaker 2: the but you know, on the one side, the leadership aspect,
23:19
Speaker 2: and then how that pertains to the actual power of
23:23
Speaker 2: the Church of England, which which in effect is as
23:26
Speaker 2: an institutional investor. But there is such great crossovers. So
23:31
Speaker 2: so really that should be let's say, that's a safeguarding thing,
23:35
Speaker 2: the word safeguarding, which I'm afraid to say I have
23:37
Speaker 2: absolute contempt for because it's yet another instance in which
23:41
Speaker 2: a process has been created in order to take over
23:47
Speaker 2: from simply common sense or decency and now rather than
23:52
Speaker 2: just using common sense or knowing that something's wrong, the
23:56
Speaker 2: treatment of somebody is wrong, you stop yourself from things
24:00
Speaker 2: king and it all becomes about safeguarding. It's just ticking
24:02
Speaker 2: a list and following a process and then you know,
24:06
Speaker 2: and you know, obviously it fails. I mean, it's this
24:09
Speaker 2: is not exclusive to the Church of England, but again
24:12
Speaker 2: reprehensible that an organization such as the Church, a body
24:16
Speaker 2: of faith should be failing children, vulnerable people in that
24:21
Speaker 2: in that way. And then therefore to go to the leadership,
24:23
Speaker 2: you know, for justin Welby to sit there and say that, well,
24:27
Speaker 2: you know, the trouble was that the problem was so
24:30
Speaker 2: big that I just, you know, I just couldn't do
24:32
Speaker 2: anything about it. Yeah, I mean, how how can somebody
24:36
Speaker 2: sit there and say that as the you know, supposedly
24:40
Speaker 2: the head of well, the Church of England certainly, but
24:43
Speaker 2: but the sort of you know, the Primate of the
24:45
Speaker 2: of the Anglican Communion. I mean, it's it's you.
24:49
Speaker 1: Make it really good. You make a very good point
24:51
Speaker 1: to Charles. There's a difference in sitting in the living
24:55
Speaker 1: room with a couple of tea and discussing Universalism's saying, well,
25:01
Speaker 1: you know, should the church accept trance or should it
25:03
Speaker 1: reject whatever, and then actively being in church leadership and
25:08
Speaker 1: taking banners and walking through the streets. The very big difference.
25:12
Speaker 2: There is that there absolutely is and as we well
25:16
Speaker 2: know that this is this is political and not not
25:20
Speaker 2: just as political, but it's it's social. I mean, it's
25:23
Speaker 2: a it is a deliberate tool of social destabilization and destruction.
25:28
Speaker 2: And it's not new. You look at this is exactly
25:31
Speaker 2: what was happening in Nazi Germany before Hitler sort of
25:37
Speaker 2: rose to greater and greater power. But if you look
25:40
Speaker 2: at that, you know this again, it's always talked about.
25:42
Speaker 2: Now it's still you look at any any website concerning
25:46
Speaker 2: either well the beginnings of the what's described as the Holocaust.
25:52
Speaker 1: Or indeed, are you talking about the Wamar Republic.
25:54
Speaker 2: I'm talking well, I'm talking about the book burning. I'm
25:57
Speaker 2: talking about the idea. Yeah, absolutely, But this goes back
26:01
Speaker 2: to Magnus Hirschfeld and his institutes of sexology and the
26:05
Speaker 2: idea that changing you know, interfering with biology and changing
26:09
Speaker 2: people's gender was in some way a sensible thing to do.
26:13
Speaker 2: And you know, I how on earth could the church,
26:18
Speaker 2: which should be all about preserving the sanctity of the
26:20
Speaker 2: human form consider such thing. But again, you know, I
26:24
Speaker 2: mean I mentioned it obliquely earlier. It's the same with
26:29
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're just being technical about it, why
26:31
Speaker 2: is it the church would have a policy against what's
26:36
Speaker 2: called female genital mutilation but then not have any issue
26:41
Speaker 2: with circumcision, because in neither case is their consent that
26:46
Speaker 2: the participants are by and large far too young to consent.
26:50
Speaker 2: So why is it okay to in effect interfere with
26:53
Speaker 2: a young boy but not a young girl. And then
26:57
Speaker 2: when it concerns transgenderism, it's you know, it's different again,
27:04
Speaker 2: it's very it's very very hard to follow, and I
27:07
Speaker 2: would say, in some sense is intentionally hard to follow.
27:10
Speaker 2: But of course the problem is that this this comes
27:13
Speaker 2: from somewhere, and what it means is that a lot
27:16
Speaker 2: of other people get caught up in it. So I'm
27:18
Speaker 2: not at all accusing the say, you know, middle to
27:22
Speaker 2: lower management tiers of the Church of England of carrying
27:27
Speaker 2: the can for this one. But then but you see,
27:30
Speaker 2: some some will some absolutely will think it is part
27:33
Speaker 2: of their mission to push this stuff out. And again
27:37
Speaker 2: we go back to the you know, the Dreadful Tyranny
27:40
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, which, incidentally, for anyone following the figures,
27:44
Speaker 2: the Church of England's fund that what the church commissioners
27:50
Speaker 2: manage jumped by one billion pounds during the year twenty twenty.
27:56
Speaker 2: I mean, you know that that is that is pretty staggering.
27:59
Speaker 2: So we all, you know, there's a big talk about
28:01
Speaker 2: the sort of corporate capture and the massive transfer of
28:04
Speaker 2: wealth from the poor to the rich and blah blah.
28:07
Speaker 2: You know who stopped and thought how much money the
28:09
Speaker 2: Church of England was making in twenty twenty. Not very
28:11
Speaker 2: many people, I don't think. And yet and yet there
28:15
Speaker 2: we are, so yes, I mean you know this obviously
28:18
Speaker 2: we could go on and on, but I think but
28:20
Speaker 2: it really is it's the it's the contradictions, and it's
28:25
Speaker 2: the and and it's the the sort of enmeshment with
28:29
Speaker 2: the general direction that society is going in. And I
28:32
Speaker 2: think I think that's the bit that people should really
28:35
Speaker 2: be interrogating, because the church should absolutely be doing what
28:42
Speaker 2: is right, not is what seems not what seems progressive
28:47
Speaker 2: or to be the spirit of the age, or you know,
28:50
Speaker 2: the church should be completely consistent and that that has
28:53
Speaker 2: that has absolutely not happened at all.
28:57
Speaker 1: And it should it should be a part, not part
29:02
Speaker 1: of the political zeitgeist.
29:05
Speaker 2: Yep, it should, yeah, absolutely, but you know it should
29:09
Speaker 2: be that the things that have not been spoken out
29:11
Speaker 2: about are totally phenomenal. And sorry, I realized I derailed
29:16
Speaker 2: myself from home ago because we started talking about safeguarding,
29:19
Speaker 2: which again could be several chapters of a podcast on
29:22
Speaker 2: its own. But what I was going to say was
29:24
Speaker 2: that safeguarding is, you know, obviously a very broad topic
29:31
Speaker 2: as it's called. I'm slightly I disapprove even calling it safeguarding.
29:34
Speaker 2: But again, to have this big thing about safeguarding in churches,
29:39
Speaker 2: and yet for there to be an investment policy, an
29:43
Speaker 2: ethical investment policy, which permits the church investing in pornography.
29:48
Speaker 2: And actually this bit is so good again I'm going
29:52
Speaker 2: to read it out. So the church does restrict its
29:56
Speaker 2: investments in that it may not invest in a company
30:00
Speaker 2: that does X, Y or Z if the threshold is
30:04
Speaker 2: over a certain percentage. So if it's under that threshold,
30:07
Speaker 2: then absolutely they can invest in it. And where it
30:09
Speaker 2: concerns pornography, they can have a holding in a business
30:14
Speaker 2: which deals with the production or distribution of pornography, the
30:18
Speaker 2: staging of live sex shows, or the ownership of sex shops.
30:24
Speaker 1: What.
30:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is absolutely written down in black and white
30:29
Speaker 2: in the in the Investment Policy, the restrictions section of
30:33
Speaker 2: the Investment Policy. So this is this is the thing.
30:36
Speaker 2: You know, Why and earth would that be the case
30:39
Speaker 2: when when the world goes in that direction? And again, okay,
30:44
Speaker 2: this has obviously been going on for a long time,
30:46
Speaker 2: that that sort of industry. But nonetheless, why would the
30:49
Speaker 2: church in terms of investing, if it's going to have
30:51
Speaker 2: an ethno ethical investment Advisory Committee advising that the National
30:57
Speaker 2: Investment bodies, why would there be any gray area? Why
31:02
Speaker 2: would they simply not review things on an absolutely black
31:05
Speaker 2: and white basis in that.
31:07
Speaker 1: Because yeah, yeah, no, no, no, sorry I'm interrupting, Go on.
31:12
Speaker 2: No, no, I mean, if if there's any hint that
31:16
Speaker 2: a company is doing something that's considered outside of Christian values,
31:22
Speaker 2: then you simply blacklisted. You just you just don't invest
31:25
Speaker 2: in it. And yet here we are doing that at
31:28
Speaker 2: the same time as talking about safeguarding vulnerable people.
31:33
Speaker 1: Sorry I jumped in midway there because you were asking
31:37
Speaker 1: about pornography and a conversation I had some years ago
31:42
Speaker 1: did create a bit of a gray area with us.
31:45
Speaker 1: If you look at, for example, art history, particularly the
31:49
Speaker 1: art that has been funded for centuries by the church,
31:56
Speaker 1: is that considered pornography at the time. I mean, we
32:00
Speaker 1: look at we look at paintings now and they're beautiful.
32:03
Speaker 2: I think you're being very very conciliatory. I see what
32:08
Speaker 2: you mean, and it absolutely raises an interesting point. But
32:13
Speaker 2: I would say there's a there's a very distinct difference
32:15
Speaker 2: between the art that you're describing, first of all, because
32:21
Speaker 2: that is concerning church buildings primarily and the telling of stories.
32:28
Speaker 2: And therefore, yes, you're right much art was commissioned by churches.
32:34
Speaker 2: I think it also shouldn't be forgotten that a lot
32:38
Speaker 2: of art was effectively the other way around, was that
32:41
Speaker 2: the powerful families involved with the church would commission the
32:45
Speaker 2: art to get it into the church for their own glorification.
32:50
Speaker 2: And I think that is that is something that we
32:53
Speaker 2: should come back to, because I think this does pay
32:56
Speaker 2: play a part, and also the theme of sort of
33:00
Speaker 2: indulgence is an absolution. I think we should come back
33:03
Speaker 2: to that. But no, I'm afraid to say we're talking
33:08
Speaker 2: about something totally different. You know, pornography. We're not talking about,
33:13
Speaker 2: you know, the sort of the appreciation of the human
33:16
Speaker 2: form in its natural state. This is this is absolutely
33:21
Speaker 2: a difference, and I think it's it is far too
33:25
Speaker 2: well known that there is a pathway between people becoming
33:29
Speaker 2: involved in pornography on some scale and that going further
33:34
Speaker 2: and further and further into a place where people should
33:38
Speaker 2: not be going. So no, I mean, okay, and again
33:41
Speaker 2: we come back to the idea of consent. Yes, if
33:45
Speaker 2: that is genuinely, absolutely genuinely what people want to do
33:49
Speaker 2: for a living, and they did not believe they're coming
33:51
Speaker 2: to harm, and they are not apparently coming to harm. Okay,
33:56
Speaker 2: But nonetheless, I think the question still remains, is it
34:00
Speaker 2: actually a chord with Christian values? And I think not.
34:05
Speaker 2: I think on a very very basic level, I think
34:08
Speaker 2: to you know, let's take the Ten Commandments. I mean,
34:13
Speaker 2: I think one would have trouble justifying pornography is certainly
34:17
Speaker 2: the staging of live sex shows. I think that's that
34:20
Speaker 2: would be a bit of a stretch. Well, I would
34:22
Speaker 2: say the distinction is quite is quite clear. What one
34:25
Speaker 2: is the creation of images, imagery, performance or whatever for
34:29
Speaker 2: carnal pleasure and the other one is for appreciation of
34:33
Speaker 2: the human form beauty exactly, and of course, well David
34:37
Speaker 2: specifically because of, as I say, the storytelling aspect. You know, David,
34:42
Speaker 2: he's not just some random bloke. He is David who
34:46
Speaker 2: knocked Goliath down, and therefore he is as an emblem,
34:51
Speaker 2: he's phenomenally powerful, and you know, and yet no one
34:57
Speaker 2: know how often do we really talk about that or
35:00
Speaker 2: not much? So, yes, I think I think there is
35:04
Speaker 2: absolutely a distinction to be to be made. But but
35:07
Speaker 2: then again, you know what, that's such a good point
35:09
Speaker 2: because okay, I can't think of anything off the top
35:11
Speaker 2: of my head now, but the celebration of the human
35:14
Speaker 2: form with with date, you know, Michael andos David, certainly
35:19
Speaker 2: that is a man in in in peak physical condition.
35:23
Speaker 2: And yet now you know, we we do still see sculptures, uh,
35:28
Speaker 2: you know, across across the land, across the world. But
35:31
Speaker 2: but look at the proportion of sculpture that is produced
35:35
Speaker 2: now with people who are very very far away from
35:39
Speaker 2: being in the peak of condition. And and so it's
35:43
Speaker 2: not it's not just to say, oh well, you know, gosh,
35:48
Speaker 2: you can't discriminate. You know, we're not all the same, No,
35:51
Speaker 2: But but actually the bigger picture is that people who
35:53
Speaker 2: are not in prime condition have in some way been
35:57
Speaker 2: been abused, either by the food system or the medication system,
36:03
Speaker 2: or the life style that they are able to lead.
36:08
Speaker 2: So actually, what you're doing in representing somebody who is
36:13
Speaker 2: you know, out of shape. And again people might find
36:16
Speaker 2: this a bit hard to listen to, but that is,
36:19
Speaker 2: in effect a celebration of something that I don't believe
36:22
Speaker 2: should be celebrated. And that's not me just having a
36:24
Speaker 2: pop at people that don't look like David, because lots
36:27
Speaker 2: of people don't look like David. I mean, okay, we should,
36:30
Speaker 2: we should strive to, but we should and again you
36:34
Speaker 2: know why not? And so where is again, where's the
36:37
Speaker 2: church on this? Where is the church on food, on lifestyle,
36:41
Speaker 2: on all of this sort of thing? And you know,
36:44
Speaker 2: look at what they did in twenty twenty. They shut
36:47
Speaker 2: their doors before they were told to.
36:50
Speaker 1: And they hang up those LGBTQ flags. I saw, at
36:53
Speaker 1: least down here some Anglican churches put those those flags
36:58
Speaker 1: up and told people to do it.
36:59
Speaker 2: More.
36:59
Speaker 1: In fact, who was had one person? Was was it
37:02
Speaker 1: the pope who said that Jesus would have got vaccinated.
37:06
Speaker 2: Gosh, I had a fear we were going to come
37:09
Speaker 2: on to that. Actually I'm not sure what the Pope
37:11
Speaker 2: said justin Welby. Absolutely again it's a big, old, big
37:18
Speaker 2: old topic. But they led to stick to the Church
37:21
Speaker 2: of England. Yes, well be said, I forget his exact words,
37:28
Speaker 2: but but yes, words to the effect of Jesus would
37:31
Speaker 2: have got the jab and that that was I forget
37:35
Speaker 2: whether it was followed by or preceded by, but they
37:39
Speaker 2: the church also put out an absolutely horrific video of
37:45
Speaker 2: a number of bishops, but but other sort of clerics
37:49
Speaker 2: advocating exactly the same thing, and it was It was
37:52
Speaker 2: staggering on on so many levels, I think primarily the
37:57
Speaker 2: because even if you don't stir the murky waters of
38:02
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical sort of vaccination success or otherwise, but simply on
38:09
Speaker 2: the matter of choice and what an earth are they
38:13
Speaker 2: thinking of doing by suggesting that choice is removed and
38:18
Speaker 2: that you must do this in exactly the same way
38:21
Speaker 2: that was done in twenty twenty when the churches were closed.
38:26
Speaker 2: There was no choice. And yes, okay you could say
38:30
Speaker 2: that for the parish priest who was genuinely fearful for
38:36
Speaker 2: their life maybe it's too much to ask them to
38:40
Speaker 2: go into church to run services, but actually, is that
38:45
Speaker 2: the case. My feeling on it is, if that is
38:48
Speaker 2: what they thought, that's precisely why they should have stepped up.
38:51
Speaker 2: They should have been the first people into the church
38:54
Speaker 2: to say come into church. And otherwise there was no compulsion,
38:59
Speaker 2: no compunction on anybody to go into church or indeed
39:02
Speaker 2: anywhere else. If you didn't want to go to the
39:05
Speaker 2: village shop because you thought it was too dangerous, you
39:07
Speaker 2: didn't have to. And yet the answer was, well, let's
39:10
Speaker 2: shut the village shop, let's shut the church. And for
39:13
Speaker 2: the church to have remained not just silent on the
39:17
Speaker 2: matter of choice, but to have actively promoted the sort
39:22
Speaker 2: of pandemic scam was beyond reprehensible, especially as they were
39:27
Speaker 2: in the process of making a billion pounds off it.
39:31
Speaker 1: So there's an interesting dichotomy here. There was a combination
39:35
Speaker 1: of moral inaction on social issues, as you've pointed out,
39:41
Speaker 1: and there was an immoral action on financial investments.
39:47
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I think so. And this is, you know,
39:50
Speaker 2: the financial investment thing is just is completely fascinating because
39:54
Speaker 2: the other bit that we haven't talked was too well,
39:56
Speaker 2: many bits, But back then, a lot of what the
40:01
Speaker 2: church was invested in. Can you believe it was tinkering
40:05
Speaker 2: around with human embryos? And that they list stem cells
40:12
Speaker 2: and much else besides production of organoids, really really bizarre
40:21
Speaker 2: and highly highly questionable forms of science, if that's what
40:27
Speaker 2: one wants to call it. And again, so I go
40:29
Speaker 2: back to the investment policy. You know, on the one hand,
40:33
Speaker 2: why would you even consider it because it's so highly controversial,
40:41
Speaker 2: But not only did they consider it, but they actively
40:45
Speaker 2: invested in it. You know, of their top twenty holdings
40:48
Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, nearly half
40:51
Speaker 2: of them were involved in stem cells. And again I
40:57
Speaker 2: wrote down what Illuminus wrote, Illumina being one of the
41:04
Speaker 2: businesses that the Church was invested in at the time,
41:07
Speaker 2: and Illumina on their website state that the embryos that
41:11
Speaker 2: they used to research or to recover stem cells from
41:16
Speaker 2: were embryos that were no longer needed. That was the
41:22
Speaker 2: phrase that they used on their website. And the Church
41:25
Speaker 2: of England was invested in them. So it's perfectly staggering.
41:29
Speaker 2: Now the portfolio who shifted very much dramatically towards AI
41:33
Speaker 2: everything to do with AI. So they're predominantly involved in
41:37
Speaker 2: the production of semiconductors which are totally necessary for the
41:42
Speaker 2: upscaling of AI. And of course, you know, the contradiction
41:45
Speaker 2: is immediate. I mean, you're okay, you've produced an excellent
41:50
Speaker 2: show recently on AI, so anyone who's listened to that
41:53
Speaker 2: will have a much better understanding what it actually is.
41:55
Speaker 2: It is not intelligent, but nonetheless, what it does do
41:59
Speaker 2: is strip away reason and accountability from human beings. In effact,
42:03
Speaker 2: it takes away if.
42:04
Speaker 1: Your LAFE doesn't need to be involved.
42:06
Speaker 2: No, it absolutely does not, and I would say should
42:08
Speaker 2: not be involved, and yet it is actively promoting it.
42:12
Speaker 2: But you see, this is the thing that so the
42:15
Speaker 2: contradiction is that they say that the reason they are
42:19
Speaker 2: in the room. In a statement back in twenty eighteen,
42:22
Speaker 2: they said that the reason they're in the room with
42:24
Speaker 2: big tech is so that they can influence what these
42:28
Speaker 2: companies do. Well, how's that going, Because you'd think if
42:32
Speaker 2: they had been able to convert or you know, change
42:38
Speaker 2: the path that a particular company was on, if it
42:40
Speaker 2: was pursuing a questionable thing, they would have made it
42:43
Speaker 2: clear that they had done that, that they'd achieved that success.
42:46
Speaker 2: There's been no such message. They haven't said anything, so
42:49
Speaker 2: they've made absolutely no ground on that. And also, whilst
42:53
Speaker 2: you know, to your eye ten billion pounds might seem
42:57
Speaker 2: a lot to those guys, it's peanuts. You know, Amazon's
43:01
Speaker 2: turnover last year was five hundred and fifteen billion pounds,
43:05
Speaker 2: So what's what's some pips creak with ten billion really
43:08
Speaker 2: going to be doing. And you know, for England, Amazon,
43:12
Speaker 2: with whom the Church is deeply embedded or in bed
43:16
Speaker 2: with that they Amazon now control much of the government
43:21
Speaker 2: software or you know, sort of tech platforms through Amazon
43:25
Speaker 2: Web services, that they're moving into warfare. And yet the
43:29
Speaker 2: Church is still insisting that that that a company may
43:35
Speaker 2: easily or may well be able to follow it's sort
43:38
Speaker 2: of its ethical knows, rather than pursuing or at least
43:41
Speaker 2: that doing that would still be in the long term
43:44
Speaker 2: interest of their shareholders. I mean, where's the example. It's
43:49
Speaker 2: it's totally totally extraordinary.
43:53
Speaker 1: Perhaps the answer lies in that book that's sitting behind you.
43:59
Speaker 2: Well, I think some of it does. I would say
44:02
Speaker 2: it absolutely does. If you can't quite see all of it.
44:06
Speaker 2: It's Agenda twenty one, which was written by Martin Edwards
44:09
Speaker 2: back in twenty thirteen, republished by UK column recently, and
44:12
Speaker 2: if you haven't read it, I would absolutely recommend that
44:14
Speaker 2: you do. And I think the most important thing about
44:16
Speaker 2: it is to trace it back, you know, as far
44:19
Speaker 2: as it can possibly go. And let's just put this
44:24
Speaker 2: out there. In the mid nineteen forties, just as the
44:30
Speaker 2: United Nations was getting going what a postwar the first
44:34
Speaker 2: United Nations Security Council meetings were held at Church House
44:39
Speaker 2: in London. That is something I think that is not
44:44
Speaker 2: much known. And the reason that's significant is because that
44:46
Speaker 2: post war period, certainly in the United Kingdom, if not
44:50
Speaker 2: many parts of the world that had taken part in
44:52
Speaker 2: the Second World War used the emergency of the Second
44:57
Speaker 2: World War as a springboard into the most amazingly transformations
45:01
Speaker 2: of so many parts of our lives. So the most
45:04
Speaker 2: obvious ones in the United Kingdom are education, which was
45:08
Speaker 2: totally overhauled and changed, the creation of the National Health Service,
45:12
Speaker 2: which was bitterly resisted at the time, but of course
45:16
Speaker 2: now we're supposed to consider it as a national treasure.
45:19
Speaker 2: The Agriculture Act of nineteen forty seven that changed absolutely
45:23
Speaker 2: everything in our relationship with food. Now and that's effectively
45:27
Speaker 2: why we are where we are. Exactly the same thing
45:29
Speaker 2: with the minds, the railways, I mean, you know, all
45:33
Speaker 2: these things. And it was also the same year that
45:37
Speaker 2: the Church Commissioners as they currently are was set up.
45:41
Speaker 2: The Church Commissioner's Measure of nineteen forty seven set the
45:46
Speaker 2: previous well quit the governors of the Queen Anne's Bounty
45:51
Speaker 2: and the Ecclesiastical Commission together and enabled them to carry
45:55
Speaker 2: on doing what they're doing now. So yes, it absolutely
45:58
Speaker 2: bears relation to to Agenda twenty one and going back
46:02
Speaker 2: to the idea of a one world government. And you know,
46:05
Speaker 2: which is why I specifically make reference of the UN
46:08
Speaker 2: Security Council and indeed the United Nations using Church House.
46:13
Speaker 2: I mean, how absolutely extraordinary to think that they then
46:15
Speaker 2: went on to use land that was brought for them
46:18
Speaker 2: by Rockefeller.
46:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's quite scary because what it's suggesting, Charles,
46:24
Speaker 1: is that there is I would presume, an infiltration in
46:29
Speaker 1: the church.
46:31
Speaker 2: I think there is. I mean, I think we know
46:35
Speaker 2: in some sense, one needs to be a bit careful
46:38
Speaker 2: in considering how any of this does actually work out.
46:41
Speaker 2: Because I'm a great believer in looking for the simplest
46:45
Speaker 2: possible explanation, and I think to overcomplicate is a bit
46:50
Speaker 2: of a full's errand not least because it's very hard
46:52
Speaker 2: to pin down the detail. But if we are to
46:56
Speaker 2: take let's take Justin Welby recently, just By a clergyman
47:01
Speaker 2: I was talking to you last week as radioactive, which
47:04
Speaker 2: I thought was a very fitting description. And also I
47:08
Speaker 2: should point out that even though he's retired fully from
47:11
Speaker 2: the church, he's not just retired as archbishcount, but he's
47:14
Speaker 2: completely retired. He is still living in Lambeth Palace, which
47:19
Speaker 2: I think is quite remarkable and something of an abuse,
47:22
Speaker 2: but that's slightly by the Bible. The point is with Wellby,
47:27
Speaker 2: he has worked in finance, and I mean, you know,
47:33
Speaker 2: you couldn't make it up, but the extraction of fossil fields.
47:37
Speaker 2: I mean, he was in the oil industry and was
47:39
Speaker 2: involved in some probably peripherally at least involved in some
47:42
Speaker 2: very you know, untoward goings on in Nigeria certainly and
47:48
Speaker 2: other places. But so the point I'm trying to make
47:51
Speaker 2: is that actually you only knew very few people to
47:54
Speaker 2: start shaping policy at the head of an organization for
47:58
Speaker 2: it to trickle to run down and to be pushed
48:01
Speaker 2: out at the lower levels without really having to convince
48:04
Speaker 2: people of its rights or wrongs. And I think, let's say,
48:09
Speaker 2: climate change is an absolutely perfect example of that. If
48:12
Speaker 2: Justin Welby says, right, well, everybody accepts that the climate's
48:16
Speaker 2: changing and that humans are responsible, we are definitely going
48:19
Speaker 2: to do something about it, So we'll all goin that zero.
48:22
Speaker 2: And then you look at what that actually means. What
48:25
Speaker 2: it means is that congregations are going to have to
48:28
Speaker 2: foot the bill for churches not using electricity in the
48:31
Speaker 2: way they currently use it, for not using oil or
48:34
Speaker 2: gas fired heating or any of that kind of thing,
48:37
Speaker 2: at the same time as the church commissioners are still
48:40
Speaker 2: able to invest in thermal coal and the production of oil.
48:45
Speaker 2: So again hypocrisy upon sort of controversy. But the point
48:51
Speaker 2: is that this doesn't need to come from any more
48:55
Speaker 2: than sort of one source. Again in this instance perhaps too.
49:00
Speaker 2: You say, you've got the head of the church itself,
49:02
Speaker 2: which is well Being and his entourage, the office of
49:06
Speaker 2: the Archbishop of Canterbury. But then you've also got the
49:10
Speaker 2: church commissioners and the investment bodies. So it doesn't it
49:15
Speaker 2: really doesn't dig a lot and your and I know this,
49:18
Speaker 2: you know for a fact, having interrogated to a certain
49:21
Speaker 2: extent those in my area to church officials in my
49:26
Speaker 2: area as to just to you know, what do they
49:29
Speaker 2: know about any of this? Where does this stuff come from?
49:31
Speaker 2: And they're not told, they don't know it, just it
49:35
Speaker 2: comes down. And because the church command structure is similar
49:39
Speaker 2: in some sense is to a military command structure, it
49:43
Speaker 2: works very well. You know, once something comes down to
49:46
Speaker 2: a diocesan bishop and then goes down through the various benefices,
49:51
Speaker 2: is it is not difficult to see how this stuff
49:55
Speaker 2: gets either pushed out or ignored or concentrated on or
49:59
Speaker 2: whatever it is. And of course it goes hand in
50:02
Speaker 2: hand with you know, I've just talked about education having
50:04
Speaker 2: changed radically since the Second World War. Goes absolutely hand
50:07
Speaker 2: in hand with that, because there are still a lot
50:10
Speaker 2: of Church of England schools and you've got that sort
50:12
Speaker 2: of triangular relationship between the churches, the schools and therefore
50:16
Speaker 2: the children across to the parents and then back up
50:19
Speaker 2: to the church. Of course, the parents are congregation congregants
50:23
Speaker 2: at the church. So to to create the sense that
50:28
Speaker 2: such and such a thing is right or that we
50:30
Speaker 2: need to do this and use the church as a
50:32
Speaker 2: medium is actually very very easy to achieve now because
50:37
Speaker 2: of the architecture that's been in place for such a
50:38
Speaker 2: long time.
50:41
Speaker 1: Hmm. But this seems like it's a story of human history.
50:44
Speaker 1: I mean, ken it actually behind art.
50:47
Speaker 2: Well, no, you're you're totally right, it is it is.
50:50
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we're sort of back to where
50:51
Speaker 2: we started, because this is absolutely and that's why, you know,
50:54
Speaker 2: and again I don't mean this to dismiss people who
50:58
Speaker 2: go to church and do actually achieve good things, because
51:02
Speaker 2: that you know, we've talked a lot about the bad.
51:04
Speaker 2: And of course there are still churches and clergy who
51:09
Speaker 2: are completely on the right track and looking out for
51:13
Speaker 2: their congregations and churches that do form the backbones of communities.
51:18
Speaker 2: But I would say, bar and large, that's now the exception.
51:22
Speaker 2: But yes, I mean, the problem is that because the
51:25
Speaker 2: church may be used as a control mechanism, and we
51:28
Speaker 2: shouldn't forget, of course, that it is intrinsically intertwined, not
51:31
Speaker 2: just with the monarchy in the United Kingdom, but also
51:34
Speaker 2: with the state. And you know, there was a bill
51:39
Speaker 2: Lord's Scribbn put in a bill to disestablish the church
51:42
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, which private members bill, okay,
51:45
Speaker 2: it fell away, but I mean, who knows, maybe that
51:47
Speaker 2: would come back again. But now, I mean, I think,
51:51
Speaker 2: like all these things, the only way to change the outcome,
51:55
Speaker 2: to change the course of the Church of England is
52:00
Speaker 2: is that is absolutely at the lowest levels. And so
52:02
Speaker 2: I think it was you know, we can all think
52:05
Speaker 2: of whether they were hairdressers or shopkeepers or gym owners
52:09
Speaker 2: or whatever, people who just who stuck their heads above
52:11
Speaker 2: the parapet in twenty twenty and just said no, I'm
52:14
Speaker 2: not going along with that. And for those with their
52:17
Speaker 2: eye on it, there were some churches that did that,
52:21
Speaker 2: they said, no, we are we are not going to
52:24
Speaker 2: go along with this. We are going to do what
52:26
Speaker 2: is right, what we believe is right and what fits
52:30
Speaker 2: with Christian values. And so it is for them to
52:35
Speaker 2: do that, to be supported by congregations in doing that,
52:39
Speaker 2: in realizing that that is the right thing to do,
52:41
Speaker 2: and that it has to be sort of pushed back
52:45
Speaker 2: up the chain. But to get to the point where
52:49
Speaker 2: we have a body of bishop's Archbishop of Canterbury that
52:55
Speaker 2: are that are going to be doing anything dramatically different
52:58
Speaker 2: from what they're doing now. I can't even pray to say,
53:01
Speaker 2: I cannot see what an earth would would bring that about.
53:05
Speaker 2: I really can't.
53:06
Speaker 1: There is a sense though, that a silver lining is
53:11
Speaker 1: quite apparent, and I'm looking at all these what did
53:17
Speaker 1: you call them Obstacles's let's say obstacles and apply the
53:19
Speaker 1: stoic way of thinking and go, well, okay. It allows
53:23
Speaker 1: us to re establish what these things mean again, like
53:26
Speaker 1: asked you earlier, what is the point of the church,
53:28
Speaker 1: What is the point of the congregation in an event
53:31
Speaker 1: like twenty twenty? What should the church be doing? It?
53:33
Speaker 1: Kind of it kind of forces these these philosophical questions
53:37
Speaker 1: to come back into into the zeitgeist.
53:40
Speaker 2: It does, it absolutely does. But that in that case,
53:44
Speaker 2: I think it's beholden upon those that are in the
53:48
Speaker 2: office of whether it be parish priest or or you know,
53:53
Speaker 2: dean or bishop or whatever, to take it upon themselves
53:56
Speaker 2: to do what they feel is going to be appropriate
54:01
Speaker 2: for their community, for their for their congregation, rather than
54:05
Speaker 2: considering how what they're doing fits with the church narrative
54:09
Speaker 2: on all the things that we've been talking about. I
54:12
Speaker 2: think I think they need to to see that in
54:16
Speaker 2: getting it right, it does actually require distancing oneself from it.
54:20
Speaker 2: But no, I mean, I I totally agree. I think
54:22
Speaker 2: I think I think they should at the at that
54:26
Speaker 2: level be a absolutely beer silver lining. And I think,
54:30
Speaker 2: you know, I would hope that in in certain places
54:33
Speaker 2: people are feeling that that is achievable. I think I
54:37
Speaker 2: think the problem is, much like in wider society, the
54:41
Speaker 2: number of people who just take absolutely as read that
54:45
Speaker 2: you know there is a climate emergency, and that changing
54:49
Speaker 2: gender is okay and normal, and you know that AI
54:54
Speaker 2: is somehow inevitable and useful that they they are in
54:59
Speaker 2: an overwhelming majority simply because they haven't stopped think about it.
55:02
Speaker 2: It's not that they can't realize the issues with it, it's
55:06
Speaker 2: just that they haven't been put in a position where
55:08
Speaker 2: they need to. And for the church, I mean, crikey, Well,
55:11
Speaker 2: you know you talk about an opportunity for the church
55:13
Speaker 2: to actually step forward as a as a leader, and
55:17
Speaker 2: this again is precisely where I think it's gone so wrong.
55:21
Speaker 2: You know this, We've talked about this a little bit
55:24
Speaker 2: just earlier. Now that you know concerning AI, why is
55:29
Speaker 2: the church not absolutely jumping up down and saying no,
55:33
Speaker 2: and okay, I don't want to contradict myself because obviously
55:37
Speaker 2: I've been talking about choice, but but I mean no,
55:41
Speaker 2: as in no, it's not inevitable. No, think about it. Choose,
55:45
Speaker 2: you know, choose wisely, So I would say yes, I
55:49
Speaker 2: mean the silver lining is this is this is an
55:51
Speaker 2: amazing opportunity for the Church of England is either as
55:56
Speaker 2: a corporate body or at the church level, you know,
56:01
Speaker 2: individual church level, to actually stick their neck out and
56:05
Speaker 2: make a real difference. Yeah.
56:07
Speaker 1: I mean basically what they should be doing is reaffirming
56:12
Speaker 1: what their values and their principles are and say this
56:15
Speaker 1: is what we believe and we will stand by this.
56:20
Speaker 2: Yes. Well, but this this is the trouble. I mean,
56:23
Speaker 2: you know, if you if you read through all the
56:25
Speaker 2: various documents that they do push out on this, and
56:27
Speaker 2: I've quoted a few of them today, this is where
56:30
Speaker 2: we get in such a muddle, and you know, this
56:33
Speaker 2: is I'm afraid this is absolutely no different on on
56:37
Speaker 2: say or different from say government policy or legislation or whatever.
56:43
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what it is. They write one thing
56:46
Speaker 2: and then promptly do another, sometimes trying to justify it
56:50
Speaker 2: with the very words that would appear to contradict it. So, yes,
56:55
Speaker 2: I mean that that this seems to be well, you know,
56:57
Speaker 2: it seems to be the spirit of the age, but
56:59
Speaker 2: the actually it has probably ever been.
57:03
Speaker 1: Thus so they speak with a forked tongue.
57:08
Speaker 2: I'm afraid I think they do. I mean, okay, we
57:10
Speaker 2: could get into the bigger in some ways, the bigger issue.
57:15
Speaker 2: I mean, it's probably not for now, but the whole
57:18
Speaker 2: coming back to, well, actually, what do these people believe?
57:22
Speaker 2: You know, look at what he's said and done. Does
57:26
Speaker 2: justin well be really believe in God. It's you know,
57:31
Speaker 2: it's a it's a question worth asking because I think
57:34
Speaker 2: that's you know, again, we've talked about the relationship between
57:39
Speaker 2: between faith and religion, and I'm the first to say that.
57:43
Speaker 2: I mean, I will go to church, but I will
57:45
Speaker 2: not be told what I should or shouldn't believe by
57:47
Speaker 2: anyone else in that church. That's a decision for me,
57:50
Speaker 2: I believe. But then what exactly are these people believing?
57:55
Speaker 2: I mean, why do people go into the church? Is
57:57
Speaker 2: it really at its core based on their belief in God?
58:03
Speaker 2: I don't know.
58:06
Speaker 1: And actually adding to that, that is where the change
58:11
Speaker 1: will come from the individuals and what they believe.
58:15
Speaker 2: It is it, absolutely it is, but it's it's still
58:20
Speaker 2: about it's still about actions. And that's why, you know,
58:25
Speaker 2: that's why I go back to I think the significant
58:29
Speaker 2: detail that that rural Okay, we are talking mostly about rural,
58:33
Speaker 2: but that rural congregations have diminished to quite such an
58:39
Speaker 2: extent because it just means that the the overlay of
58:44
Speaker 2: sort of all the different tiers of society, not not tears,
58:48
Speaker 2: but but but all the different things that people do
58:50
Speaker 2: in life. You know that the church now has very
58:53
Speaker 2: little connectivity with anything else. And that's that is that
58:57
Speaker 2: is a big, big change. So even if people do
59:00
Speaker 2: do that, and even if there is change, what effect
59:05
Speaker 2: is that going to have? I mean, I don't know.
59:06
Speaker 2: I don't mean to be pessimistic, but it's just that
59:11
Speaker 2: you can see how that would affect great greater change.
59:15
Speaker 2: In say a metropolitan environment, where there's a really really
59:18
Speaker 2: big and engaged in active church congregation. You can see
59:22
Speaker 2: how they would get stuff done by sheer dint of
59:27
Speaker 2: their belief and indeed the action that it drives them
59:30
Speaker 2: to because they are a significant part of that community.
59:33
Speaker 2: But in places where the church, because the numbers are
59:37
Speaker 2: so small, is only really a fringe player in the community,
59:41
Speaker 2: one wonders quite what the future does hold.
59:46
Speaker 1: All right, well, as we come in for the final LEP,
59:48
Speaker 1: what's the moral of the story?
59:52
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, I think the moral of the story
59:55
Speaker 2: as a as a congregant is to is to hold
59:59
Speaker 2: true to your beliefs and to speak out. And I
1:00:04
Speaker 2: think too it doesn't have to be confrontational. But I
1:00:08
Speaker 2: think you know, if you do participate in you go
1:00:11
Speaker 2: to church, or indeed you want to, I think you
1:00:13
Speaker 2: shouldn't be backwards in coming forwards. You should absolutely make
1:00:17
Speaker 2: your views known, mostly because people won't have considered it.
1:00:23
Speaker 2: I mean, if you've it's sort of been interested by
1:00:26
Speaker 2: what we've been talking about during this podcast, then I
1:00:29
Speaker 2: think bring these bring these issues up because they are
1:00:33
Speaker 2: great talking points. And I would absolutely wager that not
1:00:37
Speaker 2: only will the people around you in the church have
1:00:39
Speaker 2: not known them or thought about them, but I would
1:00:41
Speaker 2: absolutely bet that the priest will also be completely unaware
1:00:47
Speaker 2: that this is the case. And it's it's you know,
1:00:51
Speaker 2: it is that kindling of passion by delivering a small
1:00:55
Speaker 2: amount of information that I think has got to be
1:00:57
Speaker 2: the way to go. As for the other end of
1:01:01
Speaker 2: the scale or the top, upper end of the hierarchy.
1:01:04
Speaker 2: Challenge them. I think, I absolutely do think these people
1:01:07
Speaker 2: need to be challenged. They're not immune from it. They're not,
1:01:11
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about sort of ivory tiles or
1:01:13
Speaker 2: whatever they are accessible they do right back. I know
1:01:16
Speaker 2: that for a fact, and they they also must be
1:01:22
Speaker 2: dealt with. These things need to be considered. They can't
1:01:25
Speaker 2: ignore it forever. And and you know, let's face it,
1:01:28
Speaker 2: they do still talk about some of the big issues,
1:01:30
Speaker 2: and they do get some things right. I mean, I
1:01:32
Speaker 2: don't mean to say that just because these things are
1:01:37
Speaker 2: being done so badly, because there are so many contradictions
1:01:40
Speaker 2: that the whole thing that absolutely everything they do is
1:01:44
Speaker 2: completely rotten and wrong, I think that would be that
1:01:46
Speaker 2: would be a mistake, although in certain instances it is.
1:01:50
Speaker 2: That is quite a hard position to hold. But yeah, so,
1:01:53
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the more of the story is,
1:01:55
Speaker 2: like with everything, like all these things we talk about,
1:01:57
Speaker 2: is just is do what you can within your gift
1:02:01
Speaker 2: to be able to do well. You can absolutely definitely
1:02:04
Speaker 2: go to a church and engage with people and talk
1:02:07
Speaker 2: about these things and make the church, make yourself relevant
1:02:11
Speaker 2: within the church, make the church relevant within society. It
1:02:14
Speaker 2: needs to be relevant for the right reasons. It's it's
1:02:18
Speaker 2: such a you know, it's a funny topic because for
1:02:21
Speaker 2: a lot of people now they've they've just sort of
1:02:22
Speaker 2: had it with the Church of England just think, well,
1:02:25
Speaker 2: you know, I don't I don't really care. I think
1:02:27
Speaker 2: I think I would take the opposite view. I think
1:02:30
Speaker 2: I think people absolutely should care. And this, you know,
1:02:34
Speaker 2: this fits in with with the series of podcasts that
1:02:39
Speaker 2: you're running. I mean, okay, we're talking about the Church
1:02:41
Speaker 2: of England today, but it doesn't really matter what the
1:02:44
Speaker 2: issue is. People if they want to see change, they
1:02:49
Speaker 2: do need to engage with it. And and and I
1:02:52
Speaker 2: think that's the that's the big thing, and that and
1:02:55
Speaker 2: that's that is really you know, you're the battle of ideas.
1:02:57
Speaker 2: The whole the whole basis of the Church Warfare podcast
1:03:01
Speaker 2: is to deal with all this because otherwise, what's the
1:03:03
Speaker 2: point Otherwise, you know, what do we do? We just
1:03:05
Speaker 2: sort of learned this stuff and just don't do anything
1:03:06
Speaker 2: with it. The whole point of learning stuff is that
1:03:09
Speaker 2: you do do something with it. And I think that's
1:03:11
Speaker 2: where you know that that's where people have gone so
1:03:15
Speaker 2: far wrong. First of all, people don't know things anymore.
1:03:18
Speaker 2: I mean education in this well, when I say this
1:03:22
Speaker 2: kind of in the UK, bye, large state education is
1:03:26
Speaker 2: is terrible and it's it is indoctrination. I mean that
1:03:29
Speaker 2: is so overwhelmingly obvious now, But to do, you know,
1:03:32
Speaker 2: to be on the on the end of this sort
1:03:33
Speaker 2: of stuff and to listen to it and to to
1:03:35
Speaker 2: engage with it is immensely powerful. So to you know,
1:03:39
Speaker 2: really harness that and and you know, this is what
1:03:41
Speaker 2: you do, and it's it's it's fantastic. Go to UK
1:03:45
Speaker 2: column dot org and you will see much more of
1:03:48
Speaker 2: this kind of thing. In actual fact, the website that
1:03:50
Speaker 2: the UK column website does have a number of really
1:03:52
Speaker 2: good articles and about not just judchure of England but
1:03:57
Speaker 2: about all matters pertained faith and also you know we've
1:03:59
Speaker 2: talked a bit about the relationship with the state. The
1:04:03
Speaker 2: Dissidence Guide to the Constitution series podcast series is really
1:04:07
Speaker 2: really good because I think understanding more about what the
1:04:11
Speaker 2: state should or shouldn't be doing is you know, again
1:04:15
Speaker 2: so so big. But yes, UK column dot Org.
1:04:20
Speaker 1: On that note, Charles Man, thank you for joining me
1:04:22
Speaker 1: in the trenches.
1:04:23
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. JOm