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Inside the Mind of a Senior Podcast Producer · Gimbal Podcast

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  We have mainstream celebrities come on and they say to me afterwards.
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  You know, whenever you're starting something, you're always, always, always going to be cringed.
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  Really, the success of podcasting comes down to...
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  I am Ben Hancock, currently working as a senior producer at 7X Content.
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  I've worked on shows over the years like Modern Wisdom,
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  Currently Man Alive, a really new cool men's health podcast.
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  Okay Ben, I want to read you a quick quote from Mr. Beast
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  and I want to ask you how it correlates to the podcasting world.
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  Oh, okay.
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  Ideas have the highest leverage on growth.
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  Picking the right idea matters more to the success of a video than its execution.
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  My question to you is what has the highest leverage of growth or success in the podcasting space?
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  It's very, you can tell I'm from podcasting because I'm about to say it's nuanced and not
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  give you that clickbait social media answer. As podcasting grows, you see celebrities come in and
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  a lot of the time dominate. However, that doesn't always happen, which has been something very
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  interesting about podcasting is you'll see quite a big famous name comedian will start a podcast
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  and it's almost slightly embarrassing for them because it hasn't immediately taken off.
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  You know, they haven't had to put in the hard yards. I'm sure they have previously to get their
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  career up to where it is, but when they're on television or on a panel show, things are set up for them,
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  and so they enter the podcasting space and the ones that keep viewers coming back is where the
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  formats are, the ideas are. So in that sense, I think he's correct.
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  If I'm hearing this correctly, you're saying the idea of the show as a whole is probably the
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  biggest leverage on success or are you saying on a more episode by episode basis?
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  I think on the whole because real success in podcasting is building community. There are so many ways
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  of organically driving viewers, but my favorite way and I think still the most effective way
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  is when you find something that you enjoy, you build it into your weekly routine or wherever
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  whenever it releases and then you recommend that to a friend by word of mouth.
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  What is a show that you have worked on or that you're working on where you're really proud of
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  the idea as a whole? I'm curious if we can illustrate this point a little bit more.
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  A big project in my mind at the moment is Manolive with Dr. Jeff Foster. It's a men's health
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  podcast that I do as part of 7X content, the agency that I work with. That is a beautiful podcast
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  first. It's like really cool what we're doing with it, but also we've got those formats and segments
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  that we build in and it we kind of had a mixture of how do we have it so that people want to come
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  back because they're like I want to see this guest in the context of Manolive while also having
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  authentic conversations and unlocking things that no other podcast would be able to unlock. So I'll
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  give some context on it. It's a health podcast for men where we have celebrities come on and before
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  they come on they do a blood test and we reveal their results live on the show. I'm really enjoying
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  that because it's new, it's a complex production to lead on and I always feel like health channels
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  have a bit more complexity with strategy trying to get them to break them old, but we've seen
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  success with that and my favorite thing is that we have mainstream celebrities come on and they
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  say to me afterwards I get so bored of having to do all of these podcasts to promote stuff,
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  but I really enjoyed this experience and that means everything to me. That is a really strong idea
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  for a show. Like I come from a YouTube background and the way that I tie that together where my
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  mind goes is the show Hot Ones. It feels like it has a similar vein in the sense that people are
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  coming on maybe challenging themselves. I don't know if that's exactly the right word but learning
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  something new about themselves and you know these celebrities they go to junkets from a thousand
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  different places and they answer the same questions over and over again you're bringing something new.
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  So that's actually cool and does that correlate to stronger performance? Did that show succeed
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  quicker? Do you have a stronger deeper audience because of the format? Is that proof that the idea
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  is really strong? It's an interesting one because the host didn't have an established following.
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  So like I said before when you come into that you have to have really strong ideas and so I've
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  been working for years on kind of guest strategy and guest research. It's a big part of what I did
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  for Chris Williamson, constantly researching guests and recommending and it's what I'd done before
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  as well. I'd grown some podcasts primarily I would say through guest strategy and so
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  something I could bring was almost the knowledge and how do I put this? I'm happy with rejection.
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  I don't mind it. I was a Christian missionary for two years full-time. You know I've learned
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  what rejections are. Part of your wheel. Yeah, I do not care about it and so I'm someone who can go
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  out to 200 guests and get rejected by most and it not get in my head. So I think that has helped
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  it to be elevated quicker and as well we're applying all the strategy that we know on social media
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  to get clips and five months in we've had several clips hit over a million close to a million and
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  then if you've got the correct conversion funnels then you know that you're only helping yourself
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  build that podcast. So yeah it's growing faster than a show that doesn't have that same.
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  wouldn't otherwise. Yeah yeah. What is your unfair advantage as an employee working in the podcast
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  king space? On a technical level I think just experience I was very lucky to get into this industry
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  at an early age which is a competitive industry to get in and quickly rise up through just the people
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  I worked with. So there's that but also I think what that's given me is I think I have a more
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  holistic view to podcasting for across shows that have completely different strategies to building
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  things up. I did politics podcasts and it was the kind of politics where I thought to grow people
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  need to gather in person because they're all freaking out and they need they need to know they have
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  friends who listen to the same thing and that was wild for that show just amazing whereas there
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  are some shows that are like we really need to focus on the metrics here to get this out to the
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  right demographics and whatnot. So yeah that's very boasting of me isn't it? I've probably listed
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  about seven unfair advantages. What I mean to say is that I've got a more holistic view of
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  podcasting I think that's that's what I feel it is and that's what I feel brings me a lot of joy
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  when I work in podcasting. Do you think that that's nature or nurture? Good question. I think partly
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  nurture because I witnessed especially Chris Williamson massively impactful for me. Very formative
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  time of my life when we were working on podcasts and we we didn't really dive in deep to many
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  YouTube metrics it was all about creating something beautiful and meaningful and I remember
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  sitting in the recording with David Goggins when we did that episode in Vegas and thinking
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  the people who listened to this and care about it they'll remember this conversation in 50 years
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  because of what they've talked about and the production quality and things and just the care
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  and devotion that the whole team foremost Chris put into that that's kind of where I see the nurture
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  side but also nature just the I've always been a bit of an outside I think I'm not a normal I would
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  say I'm not a normal 27 year old I think I'm probably different to most people in some ways bad
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  in some ways maybe positive. I like it and I like that you know that about yourself too because
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  then it allows you to leverage it for work like you know that you see the world differently from
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  most people you brought up Chris Williamson it would be a shame not to talk about him for a little
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  bit give me the TLDR of your working experience with him how long were you working with him what was
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  your role I worked with Chris for four and a half years I think it was and so essentially he was
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  a hiring and assistant it was him and Dean the Dean the video guy creative director it was those two
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  guys running modern wisdom for I think they'd been doing it for I want to say two years already
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  and I think it was just at that point where it was there was starting you know every few episodes
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  they would have a kind of good hit but it was still very much they were 150,000 YouTube subscribers
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  and it was the time where they were finally expanding the team and so I was the third team member
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  of modern wisdom I basically did anything that was needed very much a generalist role and I enjoyed
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  that and then as that grew and grew and grew and became just crazy then I moved more into content
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  management because the output that we were doing was just huge and so it was my responsibility I
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  kind of was responsible for the quality of every single thing we put out in terms of if something
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  wasn't quite right it was like did Ben miss this did or you know we for clips and things like that
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  if I felt it wasn't really aligned I was a brand champion because I really cared about it so
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  when more people come to work in I saw myself as a little bit a little bit of a kind of brand
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  gatekeeper of like this has been built over several years that's not kind of
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  ruin the reputation over a clip that's a little bit cheap for for what we're building kind of
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  think his dedication to his craft is unlike any other podcaster I've ever worked with
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  I'm still inspired by that after it's almost a year since I stopped working at modern wisdom
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  do you recognize the name Mark Manson yeah so I worked with him for three years and
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  Mark has appeared on Chris's show a bunch of times and I've always found it a really rewarding
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  experience working for somebody like Mark because it's like genuinely helpful for people people
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  looked up to him and appreciated the advice that he had and I think there's crossover between
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  between Chris as well he's bringing you know good positive energy into the world and helping people
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  improve their quality of their lives yeah and you know in content creation there are so many
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  faceless channels AI channels now and channels that are their motivations are purely financial
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  or cloud chasing whereas for Chris he was genuinely cultivating an audience that he loved
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  why would you cultivate an audience that you really don't like if content creation and
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  podcasting is something you love then you should be able to have an audience that you genuinely
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  admire and think wow I've got I've got my people with me and I felt that Chris's people are the
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  ones who listen that was so cool when we eventually got to see the live shows and actually
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  it was people rather numbers on a screen it was the first few were quite trippy it was like wow
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  these are real people but it was also just a wonderful experience that I'll never forget
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  what are three things you learned about greatness from working with Chris Williamson
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  ah well let me get my notes up because I've written this down actually whenever I work with
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  people I like to write write down why I've learned from them okay number this is an exclusive
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  number one data is very useful but don't compromise your tone of voice and values for slightly
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  higher optimization number two all aspects of podcasting should be enjoyable and uplifting
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  number three eventually the best will always rise to the top number four interviewing is a craft
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  a form of artistry number five the worth of beauty is beyond purely its function therefore
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  strive to create something beautiful and number six success is on the other side of cringe
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  number seven cultivate an audience A that you love and B that you love creating for
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  eight no researcher can or should replace an authentic thoughtful conversation born of earnest
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  curiosity however good the team around you is the host must personally prepare well for each
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  interview number nine I was dedicated obsessed with and devoted to my work but Chris was more so
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  if I missed anything it was Chris who would pop up and remind me nicely he cared and was
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  personally invested in the success of the minutia and we're talking like pinned comment tiny things
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  Chris would just send a gentle reminder because he just maybe to his own detriment sometimes
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  with his mental health or something stress levels wouldn't be quick to relinquish his grasp
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  of podcast minutia but at the same time that's what made him so successful and he was genuinely
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  dedicated to it I'm so lucky I asked that question nobody's ever answered it was such intimate detail
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  that is a really strong list obviously you put a lot of thought into it and you think about it
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  on your own end we have to include all nine it's the only way yeah and let's let's dig into one of
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  those that I think was a hallmark quote for me working with Chris which is success is on the
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  other side of cringe that was a very much thing of like when we're creating stuff we have to be
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  conscious that it's still cool it's quite easy to slip into especially when you've been doing
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  it for years and you're complacent and we're all getting older as well we're not the young 20s
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  that we used to be it's really important that it doesn't become cringe and as part of that
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  with say thumbnails merchandise you know it's it's still so hard to get Chris's merch because
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  for years you're going through different kind of exact because it needed to be top quality and
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  needed to be the best same for thumbnails descriptions everything everything was really carefully
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  thought over and I remember one time Chris coming to the team with kind of plans for the new year
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  and this in big bold text it was it was still we need to make sure that we're never cringe
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  because that's when we'll start kind of dropping it and I I love that and it was a great north
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  staff for everything that you did it was a great way to be as a team we were a cool team and I
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  think I was probably the least cool stop stop you were the tastemaker of the entire show you
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  were the most cool no way that was definitely not true but nevertheless they they took me in
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  anyway and and from a pretty young age I was still in university and I was there for a long time
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  and it was a privilege and honor and just grateful to play a part of it I actually thought you
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  were going to take it in the direction of you have to be cringe in order to succeed but you are
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  saying you can be successful and still fall into the trap of becoming cringe and that's when
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  things become problematic yeah and to be honest I don't know if other people think Chris's early
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  episode of cringe I don't that I didn't necessarily think that but I think as a host and a creator
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  you're always going to look back and cringe at your early episodes you will that's a good thing
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  because it's a sign that you've come on so far from it I look at my early episodes of the podcast
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  I either a faith podcast and I look at the early episodes of that I think whoo I've learned a
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  lot since then that's that's that's the beauty of the podcasting and that's that's what I don't
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  want to lose in the industry I don't want it I don't want those first episodes to be polished
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  do you recognize the name Ira Glass from NPR no so he's the host of this show called
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  this American life and he said you know whenever you're starting something you're always always
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  always going to be cringe because your expectations of yourself don't meet your taste and you enter
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  the podcasting industry or you become a youtuber because you think you have good taste of like what
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  it means to be a quality artist and he says it's just impossible to meet your own expectations as
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  you're first starting out and so you're inevitably cringey and his answer which sounds kind
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  of similar to what Chris is saying in a certain degree is you just have to get through it you have
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  to push through it and you will look back and you will say yeah I was absolutely cringe but because
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  I push through I'm much much less cringe now than what I was back then and five years beyond that
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  you're going to have the same sentiment about how you are right today and you just constantly look
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  back at yourself and say oh my gosh I'm so much better than what I was five years ago
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  yeah that's a part on the back moment and I doubt other people will think it's cringe from the start
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  yeah this podcast is a testament to that because when we first got started I felt really uncomfortable
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  and you know there wasn't a lot of reward not a lot of people were watching it or consuming it
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  or listening it but as I kind of like pushed through it people much earlier than I expected
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  said that they were enjoying the show and that was you know it was like one or two comments a week
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  a month and it really meant a lot you know Chris often talks about this hockey stick inflection point
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  for his podcast because for the first two years there was essentially nothing like but it was very
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  much you know it right that was a long time and Chris has said this on other shows I think there were
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  days when there would be zero listens in place and when you're doing that for two years releasing
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  what two episodes a week and not seeing much come back it's like if people look at that podcast
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  and think anything cynical know it yeah incredible hard work and dedication has been put into the
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  into growing to that's growing that show where it is now of course and now modern wisdom as
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  regard as one of the greatest shows on the internet so I think people kind of think when they think
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  of Chris they only think of what it is now so it's interesting to hear like oh yeah there was two
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  year process where things were not good nobody was watching or listening I think that's just the
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  push that's the push of becoming a creator you just got to get yourself through that you know most
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  people quit at that point and as long as you don't quit you will eventually win I think it's something
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  like 92% of podcasts quit before 20 episodes yeah yeah and you know if we recall back to we were
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  speaking about Mr. Beast at the start and there was that principle with Mr. Beast that he's opened
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  up about about how he would invest more and more into the show and he's dedicated to creating
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  these epic videos and although the content is very different I mean Chris has spent 100 grand
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  before in a set I'm pretty sure I mean I've seen I was gonna ask you about that yeah yeah yeah
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  cuz Mark the guy who I previously worked for he was a guest on Chris's show and I remember Chris
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  really going above and beyond to make it this visually impressive looking set I mean I remember
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  when we were working on he we were having these meetings about oh what's cool stuff that we could
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  do and but later on he said to us that he was booking this volume studio in Austin where they had
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  filmed scenes from scenes from like the Mandalorian and stuff and you're gonna have these tables and
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  it's wildly expensive and you're sitting on a table but you can project like they had created
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  unreal engine graphics for the back of it and you're watching it this is the macchi macana
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  episode right where they recreated the set of interstellar well that that was later on I mean
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  earlier on we did we went to that same studio and we had Dr. K healthy healthy gamers
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  uh the gamer yes so that that's what I mean is is in that element you're not necessarily thinking
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  about click through rate average view duration you're just saying let's make something amazing
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  that people will remember and if you can get to that point where you're having such fun with it
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  and you're really putting everything you can into creating amazing podcasts that's that's what I
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  love about the industry I want to bring up a conversation I had with somebody who makes podcasts
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  and his philosophy around it I think he will challenge it he says the way that he thinks about
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  podcasting is as a series of shorts because shorts are what is growing the show that's where you get
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  your organic growth and so everything for him is one short clipable moment followed by another
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  clipable moment followed by another clipable moment and you do that for 90 minutes and that's actually
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  your podcast episode what role does shorts actually play in the podcasting world well if I speak
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  purely from modern wisdom we didn't start doing shorts until really really late you know almost
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  did a million subscribers I think was when we started taking shorts seriously so I don't think
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  it's necessary and it also doesn't sound like a lot of fun I would agree depending on the lot
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  of content so here's where I see it you have the content waterfall system right you take a you
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  take an episode you have a 60 minute episode from that episode you get a newsletter a blog tweets
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  Instagram quote carousels you get short form clips you get medium length clips the kind of 10 minute
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  stuff that you can put on Facebook you can put on YouTube there are things in there that you know
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  that will work and you're trying to expand your audience so therefore you have a two-hour
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  conversation with this amazing person and it's a genuinely authentic meaningful conversation
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  within that conversation you can plant some questions that you know have performed well on other
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  things or it may be just something topical so say I've got Elon Musk on who am I going to ask
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  what am I going to ask Elon Musk about is a few months ago maybe asking him about what he thought
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  about this moon spacing I don't know you can strategically have things in but if those things
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  supersede the quality of the conversation I don't think that's very effective for community
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  building really the success of podcasting comes down to building a community around it and leveraging
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  that community I also think when we're using modern wisdom as you know a case study I don't know
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  it just feels like it's a really saturated market now and if you're not competing on the shorts
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  level and you're not water falling your content as you described it feels like you are going it's
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  going to take you longer to succeed and everybody wants success in the shortest time horizon
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  if you have a holistic view Devon then that strategy will not work for every podcast I mean what
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  podcast are we talking about with the show and what type of podcast I've worked with money creators
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  and we all kind of fall in the same education umbrella but I think money creators are unique in
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  the sense that their motives are very very clear and very different from some of the other
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  educators that I've worked with but there's there's also this thing of is your purpose trying to
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  earn money from the content itself or I think that's the case they would not pursue that as a
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  as a form of content like they would not do that if the ROI wasn't there my my understanding of
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  that is I can't remember the name of the creator however there's a creator that I'm familiar with
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  who has a channel with 100,000 subscribers and he has a channel with 500 subscribers the channel
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  with 500 subscribers makes far more money because it's much more targeted whereas this one is about
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  viral and getting getting clicks whereas this one is content targeted specifically to the audience
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  that is needed to come into the the lead funnel to then convert into actual customers and a community
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  I prefer to look at a podcast look at the specific objectives and yeah from that I would then
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  derive a strategy that is bespoke to the aims and objectives of that podcast that that's not
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  me discounting shorts but I think will we experience some real shorts fatigue in the future I think
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  YouTube has just announced that you can switch off shorts on on YouTube I think maybe that was
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  a bit older so when I look as well even with viral clips the conversion the conversion funnel
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  these platforms want to keep you on their platform so I don't think it'll ever be the case where
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  short form has a huge huge conversion rate unless you are specifically targeting that audience
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  that you really want them to come across and this is really exclusive for them I want to get inside
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  your brain just a little bit I'm going to pivot the conversation brands are entering the space more
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  aggressively than ever before I'm curious what you would do if a brand says I want to make a podcast
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  there are brands where I would listen to their show like sports teams I would love to listen to
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  their podcast but then there are other brands that are just kind of like all over the place and so
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  I wanted to put together a thought experiment and I wanted to ask you let's say that Coca-Cola
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  approached you and said I want to make a podcast I don't know anything about it it's a blank slate
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  help me win what would you do in that scenario well this I'm primarily nowadays work with brands
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  so I think there's there's absolutely room for brands and you see hugely successful podcasts
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  that are branded and so what I would look there is I would look at the successful ones so one that
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  comes up straight away in the UK is is dish podcast by waitrose how has waitrose as a brand
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  approached their podcast strategy they've got two really well respected celebrities so they've
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  got a cook and a broadcaster who come together they meet celebrities they cook their favorite dish
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  and they're using waitrose ingredients and there's a little props there and there we have a branded
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  podcast that is hugely successful so who did who which company did you say Coca-Cola okay so what's
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  something really unique we can make with Coca-Cola what's the Coca-Cola motto what's it all about taste
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  the feeling taste the feeling yeah okay so taste the feeling so I'd probably come up with a format
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  or an idea that conveys that feeling that creates that atmosphere maybe we could do a podcast on a
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  beach that would be unique they have ice-cold crates of Coca-Cola sat around them and they're
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  talking and thinking of something taste the taste the feeling I don't know maybe it's kind of a
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  desert island discs format where they give five songs that remind them of happy times that's kind
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  of a direct feel from them but and then then you know a repeated segment that is directly linked to
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  like that's where my mind would be going like you would pitch that to Coca-Cola and they would say
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  great I want my product on that beach people are drinking it but they're not necessarily talking
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  about Coca-Cola like it's not a direct hey we should only make a podcast where people talk about
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  our products yeah no I I don't think so I I think when you when you see why podcasting has become
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  such an important piece in the spectrum of advertising and why it's got such a great return of
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  investment is the authenticity of the hosts giving that so I mean you look at a host-read ad it's
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  far more effective than sure than a radio advertisement or TV advertisement especially in
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  conversion so if you can create something that cultivates the atmosphere that increases brand
• 25:52
  reputation that's what I'd be doing I'd be making people more favorable towards the brand
• 25:58
  and then you've got you've got a marketing vehicle from which you can do things like oh we've
• 26:03
  got a new product let's introduce a segment that announced that new product or you've got
• 26:08
  the host saying because it's Coca-Cola got obviously Coca-Cola are a massive brand so I doubt
• 26:14
  they'd be directly selling like codes for products on on there but you know introducing why
• 26:21
  theoretically you could yeah theoretically you could so I'd be creating something that is great
• 26:27
  for that brand and positions them more aggressively in a place where they want to be and that's
• 26:33
  kind of what we've done with Manelive you know Manelive is a branded podcast but it's not
• 26:37
  obvious that it is it's a health company and what's the purpose of the podcast to get men talking
• 26:42
  more openly about their health and if as a direct result they want to get some blood tests and
• 26:46
  or be a bit more proactive then they've got a place to do that but for the brand it's really
• 26:51
  valuable as a as a piece that positions them where they'd like to be would you pitch hosts to
• 26:57
  them and say I think this person would be great for you or do they kind of have an idea like is
• 27:02
  this something you've actually done in the past oh absolutely I mean you can look at any brand and
• 27:06
  kind of pinpoint some dream celebrities that you'd like to and then that immediately it's just
• 27:11
  credibility positioning it's a great way to do that I hear what you're saying I think when I was
• 27:16
  thinking of brands being associated with podcasts it was much more of a direct relationship like
• 27:21
  the podcast would be about the brand it would be about dub soap and cleaning your body or be about
• 27:26
  Coca-Cola and consuming the product but it sounds like that's just kind of like an adjacent
• 27:30
  element to something that's a central theme of each of those companies instead I think so and
• 27:36
  again you can you can do that but if the point of a podcast a successful podcast is to build
• 27:42
  community then I don't think going in hard with selling is a great way to build trust right I think
• 27:50
  this is about creating a deeper relationship with a brand and if you were creating a deeper
• 27:55
  relationship with a person what would you do you I think it's transferable I think it's the same
• 28:01
  if you if I came to you and immediately was wanting to sell you something that wouldn't deepen our
• 28:06
  relationship exactly and it's the same with podcasting interestingly there was a study done
• 28:12
  from the journal of audio production or something like that recently and they they showed why
• 28:17
  audiences see podcasters as friends like the strange parasocial relationship and they attributed
• 28:24
  three things imperfection spontaneity and personal confessions and I think if you can if you can
• 28:30
  have those three as a brand as well that's it almost sounds like the antithesis of a brand but if
• 28:36
  you can create a show that is associated with a brand and conveys these traits of relatability
• 28:42
  then that's amazing for a brand wow that's fascinating I've got one last question that I ask
• 28:48
  everybody and that is who is a creator or in your case a podcaster that's on your radar that
• 28:55
  deserves some kind of shout out I'm going to be pretty pretty bland and go for stick to football
• 29:02
  and I'm a big football podcast listener but that is a podcast to me that they didn't just use
• 29:07
  the platform of sky sports this huge sports company and all the legendary footballers that are
• 29:12
  on there that wasn't enough they created a really great set that's quite unique it's like a bar
• 29:18
  they've created segments in there where you you see them all coming in and you see them coming out
• 29:24
  of the conversation so the podcast actually starts about 10 minutes in but you're seeing them all
• 29:28
  interact with each other which I think people have really loved seeing I do they're really being
• 29:33
  thoughtful about everything that they're doing and I love to see that from a big company and I think
• 29:38
  other people who are smaller creators are doing the same and you see them pop up and you're like wow
• 29:43
  that's really intriguing I love when I see creators do that in the agency I work at 7x content we
• 29:48
  often bring up fashion neurosis where the guest is lying down on a couch and the camera is above
• 29:54
  them and they're like it's almost like a therapy session so I we love creative innovators stuff
• 29:59
  like that but for me stick to football is a great example of not being complacent when you've got
• 30:04
  massive resources and really relatable endearing content and segments I love that that's it for
• 30:11
  this episode thank you so much for watching or listening if you're new here please consider
• 30:15
  subscribing or leaving us a review on the audio platforms it really helps us out in the early days
• 30:21
  of this show if you are a producer or creative director head of content for a youtuber or a podcaster
• 30:27
  that has over a million subscribers please reach out I think you would have a lot of knowledge to
• 30:32
  share and I would love to interview you we'll see you next week with another interview thank you for
• 30:36
  listening