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Breaking the Taboo’s Within Financial Planning · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone, it's Elena back for this week's episode of the Financial Planner Life Podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: And this week I'm joined by Hayley Rebetz, who is head of Verve Services at the Verve Group.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: This episode is all about breaking the taboo.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about how we can break the taboo surrounding money and having more conversations and openly about money and the importance of this.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: We break the taboo around appearance and why within financial planning profession you can have visible tattoos and vibrant hair and still be successful at your job.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk about breaking the taboo in terms of the administration role, why it's super important, shouldn't be viewed as a stopping gap, and adds loads of value to the profession.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: How are you today, Hailey?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really good, thank you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very well.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for joining me on this very cold afternoon now that the winter is fully in swing.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the question that I start with everyone.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell me a little bit about your career journey to date?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's classic falling into finance.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I literally went for a job interview as a receptionist for a financial advisor, um, worked in the reception area for a bit, um, and then slowly started getting involved in different areas.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I did some administration, um, some office management.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I got really excited about all the nerdy kind of um, did power planning for a really, really long time and then moved into um operations and management and then found myself at the Verve group doing lots of different things.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, so I know we always talk about it and it's very cliche, like falling into the industry.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I think with the advice gap and you needing more people to come into the profession, I think it's always really interesting to shine a light on what made you stay within financial planning.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, what elements of the industry sort of kept you gripped?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think seeing the change, um, all of that kind of came about for me at a time where I was starting to get into a bit of a lull and kind of falling out of love with the industry a little bit.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so to see companies like the Verve Group before I joined them doing lots of different things and trying to make changes and trying to push the industry forward so it didn't have this persona of being like an all boys club and all of that kind of stuff.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that for me was that real moment that was like, yeah, this is what I want to do and this is what I want to be involved in.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also just the elements of my personality were really well aligned to what I was doing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, like organization when I was doing administration, and the nerdiness of the kind of stuff, just it was a match made in heaven, really.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think it's definitely really interesting when we talk about like the change and things like that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's lots of different points that we're going to speak about within this podcast will be about being like the change we want to see.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: But um, it's definitely an industry where you can add a lot of value in lots of different forms, and it'll be really exciting to sort of speak about how not you can just add value sort of on a day-to-day into people's lives, but as the profession in general.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned now that now that you've joined the Verve group, that your role encompasses lots of different things.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, head of services is quite subjective in itself.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you mind giving us a little run through in terms of what you're doing now?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so um at VERV, we basically do everything but give advice.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's support services for financial advisors, um, and we'll do power planning, administration, um, marketing and design.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have our own tech team building some of our tech behind the scenes, which is super exciting.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the bits that I head up are um our template creation service and our DNA service, which incorporates prod, CIP, and PDD.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we do all the research and put that together into documents for advisors.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's so many other things we've got in the pipeline as well.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: We just keep evolving and keep adding new services.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really exciting.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really exciting.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: I know we've had people on um before from sort of a you know similar background, but it's really interesting and exciting to hear about how much the industry has evolved that you don't necessarily need to be a financial advisor to be successful, and there's so many different elements to that.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing that you're involved with is in the Verve Foundation, and we've spoken about this before, and it encompasses education, talent, profession, and new business.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: But your element of that is the education side of things.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind elaborating on why you're sort of so passionate about this?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I came from quite a poor background, um, didn't really have access to like um financial education.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: When I went to school, it wasn't part of the curriculum.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, part of my journey and part of my learning doing this um kind of role was finding out that primary schools don't have it in on their curriculum, but secondary schools do.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it is it is moving, but generally it's not available as it wasn't when I was younger.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just like to help people.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's like just part of me, I just always want to fix and help and do what I can.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm really passionate about the industry.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was saying, it it seeing these changes um at that pivotal point in my career made me want to make a difference, made me want to make changes.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so when I was offered the role of ambassador for education for the Ver Foundation, I literally just snapped together.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's mine.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I just I'm a big believer in if you're passionate about something, it's really easy to do and just want to do it all the time.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you mentioned then that sort of your background and where you come from has played a part in something that you know you're passionate about to this day.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think your background and your upbringing has affected your current attitudes and perceptions towards financial planning?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's always even working in the industry as a young female, always felt like I could never be an advisor.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that that whole um stigma, I guess, around that in our profession.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think as well, the the whole point of me wanting to do this kind of thing is to change those perceptions.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because I've come from that background and I've had those experiences, and I don't want to see other people go through that, um, especially because we can make changes and we can change people's views and give them a different side of the story.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, how about this perspective?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever thought of that?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, change behaviors and biases and things like that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, there's loads of different elements that affect how you feel about money, but it does all come down, you know, everything in our life or experiences all boiled down to one point in our childhood.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so amazing how these perceptions and these attitudes that are ingrained in you from such a young point in time then can affect how you communicate with that element for the rest of your life.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one thing that is a massive taboo and is just talking about finance at all.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, why do you think people struggle talking about money?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so in my experience, it's it's that feeling of shame.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's so ingrained in people that, oh God, I can't talk about money.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's really embarrassing.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't talk about my salary with a new partner or it's it's just this feeling that's that's ingrained.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where it comes from.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think a lot of it is our parents.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like my mum would never tell me how much money she was bringing in.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that we struggled, but she'd never sit there and say, Oh, I have this much money and we need to go to the supermarket and spend supermarket and spend this much money and then we've got this much left.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think if people can do that, it's so much more healthy for children growing up because they get used to talking about money, they get used to talking about problems.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it just shouldn't have that shame at all.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very British thing, isn't it?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: I always think.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, I read an article and I don't know where, or I'm probably going to quote it completely wrong, but I found it really interesting because it spoke about in England, it's very common for some of your mates to be there, like, oh, do you want to go for dinner tonight or do you want to do this?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: And you go, Oh, I'm a bit broke at the moment, I haven't got a lot of money.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: But that's a really British thing in other countries.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: You would say something like that, and your mates would be there, and you know, here we brush it under the carpet, like, okay, well, we'll go for drinks in a couple of weeks after payday.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I know in other cultures they're very much like, why?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why haven't you got enough money?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, have you not budgeted enough?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a very British thing, I think, for us to not have those conversations and to just sort of leave it on surface value, really.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess we've just spoken about then, you know, having those conversations with young people and how it opens up.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: But why do you think it's important to have these conversations around money?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you do it when you're younger, you just become used to it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um growing up, you don't feel that shame and that dread and all of that kind of stuff.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's important as an adult to try and um break that taboo and trying to get used to having these conversations because it's healthy.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you have a problem and you talk about it out loud, generally you just feel better for saying it, writing it down.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, also, problems don't feel so big when you can just share them with somebody else.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also a lot in um like getting tips from people.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we did some workshops here um for Talk Money Week, and just having a room full of people and saying, Well, this is what I do, these are my top money tips.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do you guys do?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually this morning, it honestly has made my day.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: One of the guys came up to me and said, I've put together this um spreadsheet, but it's not just a spreadsheet, it's a fancy um budgets, and then there's like savings goals, and then you click on the little piggy bank, and it's got like if you put five pounds a week aside, this is how much you've got at the end of the month.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And she's taken that inspiration, talked about it, and put it into something that is really practical and it's going to change her life.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it started with the conversations, like it's just that little seed to grow and grow and feel comfortable and talk about things and just get yourself out of a pickle and not bury your head about it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what I was just gonna say then.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's so easy with money to bury your head in the sand because we do have this negative outlook on speaking about it and the effects of it, that it's so easy to just like bury your head under the sand, pretend that it isn't happening, and then hope in a month's time that it's better, and very likely it normally isn't.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's in a very difficult cycle to break out of.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned the talk money week.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, how have you gone about navigating then this element of people having more conversations about money?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because as we've just said, it's a very British thing, it's almost ingrained in us.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very difficult habit to then try and go change.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, when I started off um in the Ambassador for Education role, it was at the beginning of the year, um, and the very first thing I launched was my break break the taboo theme.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally just went to every news outlet I could do with articles and took to LinkedIn and got people to record videos and just that encouragement, um, really.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually have like a remote group here of all of the people that work remotely, and we all get together and just like we'll drop in little bits like, oh, talk money or like be more hailey and stuff like this.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's I think just talking about it, getting other people to talk about it, mentioning it, it just slowly starts becoming a thing.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And like this morning when when the girl came to me with that, I was just like amazing.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not just keep that, let's take that to everybody in our company and say, look, we've we've got this tool now.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Can you use it?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's just that encouragement.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and oddly enough, as well, she said to me, Oh, there's this whole community on Instagram and there's lots of different things about money on Instagram.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And she's created a profile so that she can go and speak to people.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And she said that is her first step, speaking to strangers, and then her next step will be speaking to people that she knows.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like taking baby steps with it.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I was just gonna say, like, obviously, it's something that to see a movement, you know, we all need to be involved in it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, what you're doing is amazing.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, especially the audience members listening to this, lots of people that are involved with financial planning, really passionate about financial planning, will really agree and resonate with your education piece.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, what are those little baby steps that people, you know, who are listening can start doing to start breaking that taboo within their own circles?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think don't just wait for like Talk Money Week or something like that.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you have the knowledge to give within your organization, there will be people who don't necessarily have that financial experience.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So put together little workshops, put together some time every week for people to have a drop-in with you, um, you know, put materials together, have a SharePoint site site where you can drop different um tools and things in.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of getting involved with the Ver Foundation, we do um uh all manner of things.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um launched a partnerships brochure, and that has all of the different options for partners.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it be providers, um we've had Simply Biz and Intelliflow who have put some money into the Ver Foundation, which is just fantastic.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's all different options that they get back for that kind of partnership.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also have We Are Change, which is um the education piece where we put people through their exams, um, and that can be sponsored for as little as 80 pounds, 85 pounds per month.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, for a year, period.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like you have to be a provider with like thousands and thousands of pounds.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to make a difference and get more people into the industry, you can do that for you know eighty to five pounds a month.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So if there are people listening, just get in touch because I want to.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there's loads of different ways, and I think definitely you said like sharing your knowledge, I think is the first step.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, Charlie, who's also a host of the podcast, she has a friend.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um, we were all sat there one day, and her friend had designed like um, it wasn't like a spreadsheet, it was just a document that she had made actually at one point for her brother.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just basically a breakdown of like, what's an ISA, what's a LISA, what's a savings account?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think they'd inherited a little bit of money and then were trying to decide what they were gonna do with it because we all know it just sitting in your current account isn't really gonna benefit you.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And she showed me the document and I was like, Can I have that?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then I've mentioned the document to someone else, and they're they're like, Can I have that?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you start sharing this one little piece of knowledge around.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really benefited me.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure it's benefited the other people that I passed it across to.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: But without someone just opening up that dialogue about money, it's something that you easily just all sit on and you can talk about all the other things in the world without mentioning it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: But from my experiences, every time I've started speaking about money in a social setting, as soon as like the band-aid has ripped off and that initial awkwardness has gone, everyone has really interesting things to say, and everyone really wants to help each other because you know, we want to help each other's physical well-being, mental well-being, um, you know, your financial well-being is another key pillar, just as crucial to that.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And once you engage in that conversation, what I found is the majority of people around you are also just waiting for that opportunity to engage in that conversation as well.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's almost like you're giving that okay to people, like, yeah, go for it.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's fine.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about these things.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that, I mean, there are some situations that are delicate, of course, there is, but even if you just take those little steps to start talking about money, it just helps.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a weight is lifted from just saying things out loud.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also a lot of the things with money issues, um, as much as with like gener with normal problems or general, you know, day-to-day, you speak to someone about it and you're there like, oh, I can relate to that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was in a very similar situation.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think people dissociate from the fact that with finances, it's very similar.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's really nice to just hear, oh, I had that issue and this is what I did to get over it.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all fine now because money makes the world go round.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's such an important factor in our daily lives.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes it's really difficult to forget that it will be okay.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: And other people have had these issues before, but it's only when you sort of confront the issue that you can then get that relief, as we were talking about.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also in our industry, it's really difficult because we're supposed to be experts.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: So all this stuff about pensions and investments, but it doesn't mean that we're any better at managing our money or speaking about money.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know advisors that would happily sit in front of their clients and talk all day long about stuff.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: You ask them a question about their finances, and they're like, oh no, that's too much.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's another kind of stigma and another thing that we need to try and break through because yes, we work in finance, it doesn't mean that we are necessarily good at these things.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's always like the the painter that you know doesn't have time to paint their own house, you know, the plumber that doesn't have time to do their own bathroom.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: When you're so it's it's a very difficult double-edged sword because you have all that applied knowledge, but very often when you're sat there speaking with it day at day in, day out with people because it's your day job, it's difficult to then self-reflect and take that own advice for yourself or have that time to really sit and think about your own finances.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we'll talk about almost like the lost generation in a minute, but we've definitely very much touched on like the next generation.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess from that side of things, from an education piece, where do you think that education comes in?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Is it like school, like we mentioned before, or how do you think we need to educate the next generation on their finances?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You are listening to the Financial Planner Live podcast, where we take a deep dive into the career of those that work within the financial planning profession.
• 17:58
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• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um I think there's so many different ways that you can approach things.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm seeing a lot in the industry at the moment where people are trying to tackle this at school age, which is amazing.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if you're a parent, start involving your child in the discussions about shopping and bills and all of this kind of stuff.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be complex, it doesn't have to be getting your three-year-old looking at a spreadsheet.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: It can be.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds so powerful going into the YMCA with the knowledge that you hold and being able to share that to a, as you said, a lost generation.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a really nice piece about homelessness across the board.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: When we speak about homelessness, I think there is um a stigma attached to in itself that it is due to their own behaviors and you know, choices that they've made, which maybe you wouldn't make.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: But when you actually sit and you deep dive into homelessness and the reasons about homelessness, a lot of it is factors, you know, section 21s and you know, no fault evictions, you know, what that then happens and the rent housing market is crazy, they can't afford somewhere else.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: There is so many factors that are based not on the private individual that cause can cause homelessness.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really powerful when we spoke, speak about those training sessions.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: So when you went in and you conducted those, was it really like simple, you know, financial planning or financial knowledge guidance that you're providing them with?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, complete basics.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I spoke to um their housing manager to start with to kind of say the these are my ideas, but you know your residence.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what do you want us to do?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we took it right back to basics.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we covered um very briefly because I I'm no expert, but just the existence of money trauma.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So then we have these behaviors that are learnt and we've been through these traumas, and that's why we act certain ways about money.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily just because it's you or you were born that way.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of things happen through trauma.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was raising awareness that there are things that are contributing factors that aren't just, you know, your rubbish at money or rubbish with money.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because you've been through an event?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also went back to basics, so budgeting, living costs, um, savings, bank accounts.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um so one of the um really memorable things from those sessions was a lady who had been trying to save for a deposit to have her own place and come out of the hostel.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she admittedly wasn't very good um at saving.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So she was always just wanting to spend it because it improved her mental health.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: It made her feel good.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: That instant gratification, yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're all guilty of it, but when you live in a hostel and you have limited income, you you can't support that kind of habit.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so she wasn't able to save anything for something crazy like six years.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I had some feedback afterwards from her support worker and said um one little fact that I told her, which was that you can open two separate bank accounts for the same bank.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So she opened an additional bank account and had um like a certain payment that she got coming in, going into that bank that she just didn't have a card for, didn't look at it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And within like six weeks, she had like half of what she needed to move out.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And she hadn't been able to do that before.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, wow, like I take for granted that people know that they can just open another bank account.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's all this underlying basic knowledge that you said, we take for granted because we know it.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: But when you look outside in a wider perspective, you realize people don't have the access to that education.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: And even when we speak about school level now, I'm I'm a definitely like a younger age profile person.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't have any.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: I remember we had one afternoon, one day at school, where I was like blocked up for like five hours and we did some weird budgeting exercise.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: That was the only finance-based exercise I remember doing at school.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I can remember trigonometry and how to work out the angle on a calculator, which seems like a great lifelong skill at this point.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, I didn't know that basic financial understanding, only watching the news the other week as someone that wants to buy a house in the next couple of years to know the difference between a variable mortgage and a fixed rate mortgage.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure for loads of people listening to this, they'll be there like, what the hell?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't know that, but no one had taught me.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd not had these conversations with my parents about what mortgage rate they were paying.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't something that was open to me growing up.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you don't appreciate how much you don't know if you're just not exposed to it.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you you don't know what you don't know, like it's simple, isn't it?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I still don't know about mortgages.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I still and my mum's rented.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I still can't relate that thing that I learned when I did my exams to real life, and therefore the knowledge is gone because it's it's all about relating it to something that you do in your real life.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and obviously, we touched about this from the very beginning.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: When you're passionate about something, it's so easy to talk about it and it's so easy to discuss it with other people.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there should be more of a responsibility for people within the industry that have that knowledge to share it with individuals that don't?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how great would it be if CPD part of that was going out there and sharing your knowledge?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like people, FCA, CII, do this.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Listen.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, where else are people going to get it?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not going to come from the government.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: If it does, it's going to be like 20, 30 years down the line.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: If we're having these conversations and there was no financial education in schools like 30 years ago, they're just starting to do it now.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's still not enough.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And like we were saying, this whole lost generation, and there's like my mum's generation.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Again, she has no idea.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: She's got me.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, quite lucky that I can help her with her pensions.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there's so many people like her who don't have that knowledge.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I do feel I that people should feel responsible for that and should want to help.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, generally we're good people, so we do want to do that.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think often it's it's knowing how to, yeah, and having those um organizations that are there doing good kind of waving at you going, this is what you can do, because you don't sit down at your laptop in the morning and go, Oh, I'm gonna seek out how I can help and how I can like spread my knowledge.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's usually you need someone to go to you and go, hey, this is how you can do it, um, which is what I'm doing.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say it ties really and nicely with your sort of project.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess um, you know, it's in the pipeline.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: We'll get some links out when it comes.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess hopefully there'll be people within the audience that's listening to this and really resonates with the fact of like, you know, it is something that I'm really passionate about.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've got young children who I see can't get the financial education.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: I see my parents didn't have the financial education that I wanted to.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And to be fair, I speak to loads of people on this podcast that have done loads to really push that message forward.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess for listeners who are listening to this and think, oh, I I want to be the change, I want to be the change I want to see.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: How can you potentially navigate that?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think it's it's all of the things we touched on before.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you want someone else to help you do it, come to the Verb Foundation, speak to me, sponsor we or change students, give us some money.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't want to do that and you want to go out and you want to impart your knowledge, um, sign up for Booker Speaker.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't necessarily have to be um through us.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many organizations out there who are doing things to help, even if it's like your kids' school, offer to go in and speak to the children.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there was a guy that I ran the YMCA sessions with, um, who's a financial planner and he does a podcast and he goes into his son's school like every year or something and gives talks to those children.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think it's just using your context and doing what you can to parents have the knowledge.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's why I think it's really interesting to hear that because it doesn't have to be something really daunting.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't have to be something that makes you feel uncomfortable.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, going into your local school, where do your children go to school?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a community center with a group where you can try and support the little things make a massive impact?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you shared some beautiful stories today of how the knowledge that you've shared has had a massive impact on people's lives, you know, this changed people's life.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the financial planning as a profession, loads of people want to join it or are part of it because they like the real value that they can add to their clients to allow them to meet their financial freedom.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: But this is taking it a step further.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is working with people that don't have those, don't necessarily have the income or the connections to allow them to meet financial freedom.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think also for for anybody, like you don't have to be an advisor or even in the industry, um, like talk to people, hold a dinner where you're gonna sit and you're gonna talk about money, like force people to talk about money.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: It does feel so much better afterwards.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many tiny little things you can do to just um spread awareness and break the taboo.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also from like, if there's um people in the audience that are listening to this that come from like a business owner's perspective, there's so much that you can do on that level to have such a massive impact.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: We've got someone coming in on Friday or tomorrow um to speak to us about pensions because we're all in our, you know, the majority of us within our office are under 30, sort of that age bracket where pension seems a lifetime away.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we're all putting into this pot.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we all work within financial planning recruitment.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we understand the value of a pension, but we still have no idea what we're doing.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a lot that business owners can do as well to relieve pressure off, you know, their workforce.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know when we have this meeting on Friday talking about pensions, it will unveil a whole other element in terms of like investments and what we're doing with our money as a workforce, but you know, you just need to approach that conversation and then all the value will just come naturally.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like organizations can um do things out of talk outside of Talk Money Week.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there might be business owners that have done stuff specifically for Talk Money Week.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Think about what you can then do for the rest of the year.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So can you get an advisor to come in, um, you know, either pay the person or um do it for free and get them to come in and and kind of have a clinic with your staff, give them a bit more information about their pensions because this is the other thing.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: It comes out of our pay slips and out of our salary, and half the time we don't know where it's invested, we don't know whether it's salary sacrifice, whether it's just going in as a normal contribution.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of different elements to things where we can just educate people a little bit more, and even like workplaces can do better, I think.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really good change to action if you resonated with a lot of this.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: You don't just sit on your hands, you can be the change that you want to see, you can drive this all moving forward.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when we've spoken about previously about um going into YMCA, one thing um that maybe changed your experience was the way that you are perceived by um the people that you met with just due to your general appearance.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: So another thing that we've spoken about that you're passionate is about is sort of like tattoos and appearance and how that doesn't affect how you are within the industry.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking, um, I'm looking, I've got a couple of quotes here that I pulled from your articles.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: So like for as long as you've loved finance, you've loved tattoos, and it's saying that you finally took the plunge and got the visible tattoos that you always wanted but felt you never could.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Could you expand a little bit about sort of your experiences with tattoos and the and appearance within the industry?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, like I said, I've I've been in the industry like forever since I was like 18, it feels like forever.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and whenever I would get tattoos, they would always be hidden.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I've weirdly, I've got my feet done, and I always used to buy shoes that like had a bit of material all over the top and hide them.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and from that young age, it was said to me, you know, oh, you have to look presentable.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree with that, you know, their their clients at the first IFA I worked for were of the older generation.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: They perhaps didn't like it, and they had these opinions that, you know, people that had tattoos with dogs and in this, you know, this kind of um thought process.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I always had them where I could hide them.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and actually, I don't think it was until I got to the Verve group that I was genuinely be able to go, okay, I'm me, and I can just relax and I can wear short sleeved tops and um I can have open open-toed sandals and that thing.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I the tattoos that I've got that I never would have had before are are my arms.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because in the summer I could never kind of hide that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is just too much to try and keep everything hidden.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do that 30 degrees outside you with a naked jumper on, like it's really not hard.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I went ahead and I did it, and it was amazing to come into the office and for um RCEO Kathy, um, our C O Joe for them to both be like, oh, amazing, like that's really cool.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And to not feel like I can't, I'm more in front of people than I ever was in any other job.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I've got more tattoos on show than I ever did before.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's difficult because I do I do understand where businesses are coming from.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you deal with clients, yes, you need to look professional, but I am of the opinion that tattoos don't necessarily look unprofessional.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, a hundred percent.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you I think you mentioned something, and I've also teased this out from one of your articles, but you said then like this impression that you know having tattoos and everything makes you a thug.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know, well, I don't know, but I'm sure there's lots of people out there that are thugs that have zero tattoos, and some people that I know that are covered in tattoos are some of the sweetest, nicest people ever.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And there's I think there is a difference between presentable and professional.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: If I walk into work in my pajamas and I haven't brushed my hair, like that is not presentable nor professional.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: But if I walk in and I've, you know, in a nice dress, but you can see tattoos, that's still presentable and professional.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a very difficult caveat.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I mentioned this to you before that it's something that I really resonate with because recruitment, not so much now.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think COVID has definitely changed perceptions with like dress code and things like that.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: But definitely when I was interviewing for this role, it was still, you know, nine to five office, business wear, you know, smart shoes, smart dresses.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I had a nose ring, and I remember telling my recruiter who helped me with this job, like, do I take my nose ring out?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, I think it's for the best.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I did.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: And for my second stages, funnily enough, I forgot.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I wore it in all the time, and I was really glad because I was like, no one's gonna get a surprise.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: But even that attitude of like, oh, I'm gonna take it out because people might, you know, receive me better, or I'm more likely to get the job because I haven't got a nose ring in is absolutely ridiculous when you think about it.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it is, you do sit there now and go, what?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's mad.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it was only a few years ago that I was feeling like this.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I I do understand there are different parts of the industry, and you know, there are certain things that are okay and aren't okay.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm not gonna get everyone moaning at me for that.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: I do get it, but I also don't think that having ink on your skin or a nose ring or bright hair means that you can't do your job or you're less capable or you're less approachable.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had someone on an article comment that I was reckless, and I'm like, honestly, if you knew me, I'm the least reckless person you have ever met in your life.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: But we've just spoken about previously also about like the industry and how we need to take more of a responsibility to allow more people to access financial advice and stuff like this.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if we remain with the stereotype of male, I always say this, and I'm not brandishing all financial advisors this, so no one shouts at me.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: But if we continue with this um stereotype of male, pales and stale, and we don't include people that have bright hair or a nose ring or a lip ring or you know a tattoos that are visible, we are feeding into this dialogue of financial planning is almost something like elitist, and that you have to be part of this club to be part of it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: While if we're trying to promote closing the advice gap, we have to have a different attitude and view of all of this.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there's a real um weight and value to being able to relate to someone.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um there's this whole kind of thing about um the next generation of wealth is going to be like women and they're gonna be younger.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are they gonna relate more to someone like me who's quite vibrant and colourful?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or sorry, a guy in a grey suit who's like 60, I think they're more likely to feel like they can open up and give real objectives and talk properly and openly about their money to someone they can relate to and not to something that seems really scary and an elitist.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's um very similar to the YMCA.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: I went in and I just spoke to them like they were people.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: If they had the stereotypical financial advisor in a suit go in, I think they'd automatically have just gone, yeah.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you just switch off.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you switch off because they've that's what I mean.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're an industry where people buy into people.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: And as much as you said, is that that we have those generations that older might have these perceived conceptions, and you do have to buy into that in one sense.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: We've also got another whole generation coming to in um coming in that is a lot more expressive, is a lot more in terms of like owning their authenticity and who they are, and what are we as an industry if we don't try and follow suit with that?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: For sure, for sure.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think authenticity, not that I can say it, is a real key word word there.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have values here at Verve.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, uh marketing are gonna kill me, the Verve group.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's to bring your authentic self to work.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the more that people do that, the more that they can feel that they can be who they are and talk about things more openly.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just all good stuff, like no negative can come out of that.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I also feel like if you and I spoke about this recently in a presentation that I did for Recruit UK, actually, I feel like if you can all be your authentic, I'm now I'm struggling with it, be your authentic self and you can live and breathe who you are in an office environment the same way that you are outside of that.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that fuels your emotional commitment to your job, your emotional commitment to your work, and ultimately allows you to be more of a productive employee.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: While if you're bringing someone into an environment where you're trying to dampen their shine and stop them from being themselves, that ultimately means that they can't bring out all these excellent quality that makes them them.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you're maybe stopping someone from reaching their potential within your workplace.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I think even from a business perspective's point of view, allowing people to be themselves will allow them to bring the best to your business.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I can 100% resonate with that.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've never felt that I'm an innovative person and I'm up for an innovation award in our staff awards tomorrow.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wish me luck.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I and I was like, what me?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not innovative.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, Joe was like, you are like you come up with all of these little ideas, you're just firing stuff off all the time.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I don't have that perception of myself is because I genuinely felt like my spirit was being dampened in each I had because I was just being kept there.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's oh, cover yourself up, oh, don't have bright hair, take your nose ring out, don't talk about money, don't do this.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it does just slowly, you just slowly get worn down until you're not who you are at all.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: You have a work you and a and they're so different.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm me all the time now, and it's so empowering and invigorating.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, I just think you're right, it sparks that creativity and it makes people just come out with these wonderful things.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, wonderful ideas.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: And ultimately, you know, people within the business push the business forward.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, you can have directors and managers and senior leaderships, but you can't forget about all those people that really do push the business forward.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: So allowing them to perform at their best um ultimately allows the business to be best.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that leads me really nicely into my next topic that I wanted to discuss about.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I've just mentioned then that you might have like directors, CEOs, you know, um, financial planners.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: And financial planners are very often, you know, viewed as almost like the top of the career ladder.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I speak to loads of people who, you know, aren't within the industry yet, want to want their first job within financial planning, and they're like, I want to be a financial advisor.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing that I'm really passionate about, and I know that you also agree with, is how administrators are the unsung heroes within the industry.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you mind elaborating a little bit more on this?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, so obviously I started off reception administration and I've done kind of all the different roles.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: My heart is still within administration because it's that organizational part of my um personality and it's where I kind of started.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, these people that want to come into the industry as advisors, that's great, but there are so many different skills that you learn from being an administrator and being in all of the different roles.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's really important for people to remember that everything starts and ends with that administrator in the advice process as well.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: They start that process off with the client.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're often the person that the client speaks to as much as the advisor.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: They uh make sure everything runs smoothly and it ends with them and they finish everything off.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to treat these people well and give them the kudos that they deserve because they really are like such an important cog in the wheel.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that getting that experience and working in admin and getting those soft skills makes people better paraplanners and makes people better advisors.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we have a sister company, the art of finance, that does training.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, um, so our we are change sponsors will go through those training, but it's not just the exams, it's the soft skills.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we have the art of financial administration and that gives them all of that knowledge that is involved in that role.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just you're an advisor, go and speak to clients.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much more to it than that.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and just, you know, from my experience, I just feel like administrators make the best advisors.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's I've always wanted to have someone in on the podcast that comes from an administrative background or has a real passion about it because sometimes I, from a recruitment perspective, still get a little bit frustrated when individuals speak to me and you know they're fresh in the industry, and then they're like, right, I've got an entry-level admin role.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then they're like, Well, how long do I have to sit in that before I'm a power planner?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And how long do I have to sit in that before I'm an advisor?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like you're rushing your own journey.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: You might love the administration role and never want to move out of that.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I speak to loads of career administrators that are absolutely amazing at what they do.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: And a good anecdote is my dad's a financial advisor.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: My dad doesn't have a power planner administrator, and I've been Phone with him.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've been in the car with him multiple times when his admins called him and been like, I've got this, I've got that, I know how absolutely fundamental that she is.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: So why do you think there's almost this perception that like administration is like a stopgap or like a means to an end, if that makes sense?
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think it's very similar to um where paraplanners were.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um back when I started as a paraplanner, the role was very different to what it is now.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we we've seen the evolution of paraplanners and career paraplanners now.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a lot of paraplanners who have their qualifications and they don't want to be an advisor because they like the nitty-gritty, but they don't speak to clients because they're different skill sets.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm one of those people, I'm level six qualified, but I never want to give advice because it's not the part of the job that I that I really enjoy.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're seeing that, and I hope we're seeing that with administrators.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an admin job like in a doctor's surgery, a secretary, like all of these negative things that people have with administration.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: A financial administrator is so much more than that.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we need people that want to stay in that career because they are, like you say, they're the key.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like your dad could not survive without his administrator.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: We need people to want to do this job.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a really interesting job because you get to do lots of different things, you get variety, um, you learn lots of different skills, and to be relied upon for me personally, is such a nice feeling when you know you're important and you know that this person that you work with can't actually function without you, it's pretty good.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you really sense your value.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is something with the word administrator, though.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's I feel like it almost like puts you in a box of like someone that does data entry or something like that.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: I almost like feel like you know, paraplanner in itself is a really lovely word that you have to, you know, explain to people.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: I almost feel like there's a gap.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can't change the whole industry with one word, but I almost feel like there's a gap that amending the title of that, you know, gives it more importance.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we have clients that don't call their administrators administrators, they call them like, you know, something to do with client delivery or something like this, you know, client executives, because it gives the role more value in its sense and definitely demonstrates the importance.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you mentioned there, like some of the soft skills training that people go through.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do you mind elaborating on that a little bit further, I guess, to dive into like the nitty-gritty of how important the role really is?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, it's not just filling out forms like you're saying, or like to entry.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you I mean, you need to be organized, um, you need to know how to speak to people, you need to obviously be like IT literate, be able to write emails and technical.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like what we did a presentation yesterday, and I had no idea how to set up this tech to like a presentation.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, guys, can you help?
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I just set it up like it's all these different things that you learn from I don't even want to say administrator because it is very negative, but um like we've got um an executive administrator and she just deals with everything and she's just the backbone of the company.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's learning all of these different things, I think, um, which gives the variety and and does give the soft skills that you need to be really successful in that role.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really interesting what you said, like the backbone of the company, like the glue.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's definitely where the role is undervalued.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think people put it in this category of like, you know, answering the phone, filling out forms, doing the post, but you really are the glue.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I've definitely worked with clients that are there like, I need another administrator because when my administrator is on holiday or ill, I can't function without them.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I know that I need someone that is constantly there, which goes to show the value that you add.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's a really nice message to people who, you know, are in administrative roles or view that as their entry level within the industry, that it isn't a stepping stone, it isn't a stop gap, it's you know, a career in itself and something where you can really add loads of value.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know many, many administrators who have done their exams.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's okay to have that knowledge of what you're doing day to day, but not want to be a paraplanner or be an advisor because they're such different skill sets.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or personally, just really organized and you like to do these things, it's okay.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't have to put yourself into a role that you're not going to enjoy just so that you can progress.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's the message for companies as well.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let your administrators progress without pushing them to be a paraplanner or an advisor.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's much, there's many different things that you can do with those skills in administration within a company.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and like you were saying, different job titles, different paths.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have a team of administrators here who um do all of our data gathering, but they also deal with big projects.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so much more variety than just the data entry and that kind of stuff.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there's so much you can progress purely within, you know, administration.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: You could be a senior administrator and do some of the more technical, lower end stuff that maybe a power planner would usually be doing.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: You could be an administration manager, you can be a team leader within a wider company.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is definitely about like changing the narrative of the natural career progression within financial planning and that you can stay within an administration role, but that doesn't mean that you never have to progress or you never do something different.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many different avenues to fuel your personal development just within that little niche.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of our girls here is um specialist in DBs, and she is she is a financial administrator, but everyone goes to her about DB stuff.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you couldn't say that she didn't understand anything, she knows everything about DB.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Paraplanners will go to her and ask her questions, and she's so comfortable and happy being an administrator.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really empowering to see, um, really uplifting to see her kind of push forward with that.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: And she doesn't want to be a paraplanner, and that's great.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to write reports.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Fab, no one wants you to stay.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is the whole thing.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think like there is such a narrative, and don't get me wrong, you know, financial planners add so much value.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's an advice gap in itself.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: We need to encourage more people into those roles, but we need to encourage more people into the profession.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think by doing that, we need to shine a light on all different roles within the industry and how amazing and valuable they are in their own right, rather than shoehorning as you know, financial planning and financial advisors being the be all and end all, and you know, that's your own goal within the industry.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: You're only successful when you get to that point because that's just not the case.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, and it's I think it's the same with advisors.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have financial planners, financial coaches, financial advisors, they're all subtle differences between those roles.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't it be the same for paraplanners and administrators?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: It absolutely should.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think you hit the nail on the head there.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's so many different roles.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: So let's not just have three different million.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I think when we're talking about like, you know, bringing more people into the industry, and the more financial education we have, the more people that are engaged in finances, the more people will genuinely want to step into these kind of roles.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: But as you said, the skill set of an administrator is very different to the skill set of a power planner, which is different to that of an advisor, to that of someone that works in compliance, someone that works in marketing or operations.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, shining a light on these different roles allows us to utilize, you know, everyone within the context of financial planning.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just get everyone in.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we want you all.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think on that note, Haley, it's been amazing to have you um as a guest on the financial plan podcast day.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: We've broken lots of taboos.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: May that be talking about money, appearances within the industry, you know, what role you have to be in to be successful.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you very much, Haley, for joining me this afternoon.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's been great.