Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / Cards CRUSHED by O's, Liberatore struggles again, Masyn Winn to IL

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Cards CRUSHED by O's, Liberatore struggles again, Masyn Winn to IL · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
0:10
Speaker 1: Jim Hayes, alongside our guest, Matt Pawley from KMOX Radio. Matt,
0:16
Speaker 1: how you doing today?
0:18
Speaker 2: I'm good. Thanks for having me, Jim. Always appreciate the invite.
0:21
Speaker 1: Always a pleasure. You're a great guest. So the Cards
0:23
Speaker 1: get back on the horse tonight, game two, against the
0:26
Speaker 1: Orioles at Busch Stadium, McGreevy versus Braddish. Last night, the
0:31
Speaker 1: Cards got rolled. 13-1 Libby, four innings, eight earned runs,
0:36
Speaker 1: a couple of homers. And they made Bassett look like
0:43
Speaker 1: Greg Maddox. Like he wasn't supposed to dominate the way
0:47
Speaker 1: he did. So it wasn't a good night, obviously. But
0:49
Speaker 1: here's the thing, Matt. The Cardinals get swept in a
0:53
Speaker 1: painful way in Philadelphia, right? And you want to see
0:57
Speaker 1: the response because this is a team that, regardless of
1:01
Speaker 1: where they are in the season, they always seem to
1:03
Speaker 1: find an answer. They always seem to punch back. And
1:07
Speaker 1: I was hoping to see a punch or two last night. Instead,
1:11
Speaker 1: they got beat up. So my question is, what the
1:13
Speaker 1: heck's going on with the Cardinals, Matt?
1:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually, losses like that happen over 162 games. To
1:20
Speaker 3: your point, I think what makes it worse is it
1:22
Speaker 3: was piggybacked off that Philadelphia series where you really felt
1:26
Speaker 3: pretty terrible about the way things went down. That final
1:30
Speaker 3: loss was especially tough. But you could have seen that
1:32
Speaker 3: team win two out of three against Philadelphia, and you
1:34
Speaker 3: feel really different.
1:35
Speaker 2: And then they come back to St.
1:37
Speaker 3: Louis, and it's just a completely one-sided game. And if
1:42
Speaker 3: that just happens at other points in the season, you
1:45
Speaker 3: don't like it, but you kind of accept it. But
1:47
Speaker 3: now it really feels like there's a trend line that
1:50
Speaker 3: is very much going in the wrong direction. And you're right, Jim,
1:53
Speaker 3: all year long, Anytime this team has hit any type
1:56
Speaker 3: of adversity, they've just punched their way out. And every
2:01
Speaker 3: single time they're in those low moments, it doesn't feel
2:04
Speaker 3: like they're going to. I talk to people after every
2:06
Speaker 3: single game, and the sky is falling, the season is over,
2:09
Speaker 3: and then they get out of it. The question is,
2:12
Speaker 3: are they going to be able to get out of
2:13
Speaker 3: it again this time? It does feel maybe a little
2:16
Speaker 3: bit different this time because of where their pitching is,
2:18
Speaker 3: both from a starting standpoint and a relieving standpoint. But
2:22
Speaker 3: it is last night was a tough one for sure.
2:25
Speaker 3: And you don't want to see many more of those
2:27
Speaker 3: at all for the final month or so of the year.
2:30
Speaker 1: Well, they are dealing with injuries as well, right? Two starters,
2:34
Speaker 1: Herb Mason, one on the shelf. We'll talk about him
2:37
Speaker 1: in a bit. The amazing thing to me is because
2:39
Speaker 1: I still like to have a little hope out there.
2:41
Speaker 2: Look, I'm a fan.
2:42
Speaker 1: I'll admit it. But I'm a realist.
2:44
Speaker 2: It's a rebuild.
2:46
Speaker 1: And they're not in a good position. But it's not
2:48
Speaker 1: like they're losing ground. They're still, what, five back on
2:51
Speaker 1: a wild card because the teams they're chasing don't seem
2:54
Speaker 1: to want that wild card spot.
2:58
Speaker 3: No, I think people need to remember that it's three
3:00
Speaker 3: wild cards now. So by the time you get to
3:03
Speaker 3: that third wild card, you're dealing with teams that are
3:05
Speaker 3: really flawed. If it was still just the one wild card,
3:08
Speaker 3: four teams per league situation, the card would be so far,
3:12
Speaker 3: they'd be double digits out of a playoff spot. But
3:15
Speaker 3: because it's the three wild cards, you're going up against
3:18
Speaker 3: teams like the Padres, like the Diamondbacks, like the Marlins,
3:22
Speaker 3: teams that are all really, really flawed. So they're not
3:26
Speaker 3: likely to go on any type of deep run. San
3:29
Speaker 3: Diego was on a little bit of a run here recently,
3:32
Speaker 3: but you're able to survive down periods.
3:34
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what's happened with the Cardinals this year.
3:37
Speaker 3: Because the teams that you're contending against for that final
3:40
Speaker 3: playoff spot in the national league, there's a lot more
3:42
Speaker 3: similarities than differences between all those teams.
3:46
Speaker 1: And the Cardinals, as I said, not healthy right now,
3:48
Speaker 1: you got Dobbins on the IL, Palante on the IL,
3:52
Speaker 1: even though he was throwing yesterday. So I assume they'll
3:56
Speaker 1: get him back shortly, but still it's a tough spot
3:58
Speaker 1: that the Cardinals are in right now. As you mentioned,
4:01
Speaker 1: bullpen tax starting rotation banged up, but Libby last night. So, uh,
4:07
Speaker 1: On this podcast, we talked a lot about Libby. I'm
4:10
Speaker 1: a Libby guy. I love that guy. I think he's
4:12
Speaker 1: a good guy. I know he's a good pitcher because
4:14
Speaker 1: I've seen it. Last night, and this happened in another
4:19
Speaker 1: couple of starts that I saw, but he gets through
4:22
Speaker 1: the early innings, but he's sweating a lot. Now, granted,
4:25
Speaker 1: it was a humid night. It looks like he's kind
4:28
Speaker 1: of gasping for air early on, and he's going to
4:31
Speaker 1: the rosin bag more than any other cardinal starter again
4:34
Speaker 1: it's the night where you're sweating because it's humid but
4:38
Speaker 1: even when he was getting through and posting strikeouts it
4:42
Speaker 1: looked to me like he wasn't in it for the
4:44
Speaker 1: long haul and at this stage they need Libby to
4:47
Speaker 1: give them the long.
4:48
Speaker 3: Haul they do they just because you're not getting Kyle
4:52
Speaker 3: Leahy's innings are going down Quinn Matthews has not been
4:55
Speaker 3: giving you length here so far and then you don't
4:58
Speaker 3: have Palante you don't have Dobbins right now in the
5:00
Speaker 3: rotation there's just so many question marks and then who's
5:03
Speaker 3: getting beat up because of that is the bullpen. And
5:05
Speaker 3: there's just a residual effect to all of that. Yeah.
5:08
Speaker 3: And you know, it's Libertor is frustrating because he was
5:12
Speaker 3: actually having a pretty good month of August. Three of
5:15
Speaker 3: his first four starts in the month were pretty good.
5:18
Speaker 3: It seemed like he had changed his pitch mix around
5:20
Speaker 3: a little bit. His fastball has been beat up. So
5:23
Speaker 3: he's been using some of his off speed stuff and
5:25
Speaker 3: then almost using the fastball as a secondary pitch. His
5:28
Speaker 3: last time out, the fastball was actually pretty good. And then,
5:32
Speaker 3: he goes through these periods where it looks okay for
5:34
Speaker 3: a moment. And then all of a sudden he has
5:37
Speaker 3: nights like last night where he had the one big
5:39
Speaker 3: inning with the two home runs that he gave up,
5:42
Speaker 3: but he didn't feel like the team was out of it.
5:43
Speaker 3: At that point, church came back, hit the home run.
5:45
Speaker 2: It's a three run game. You feel okay about it.
5:47
Speaker 3: And then he's back out for the fifth inning and
5:49
Speaker 3: he can't record a single out in the fifth. And
5:51
Speaker 3: they have to go to the bullpen really, really early
5:53
Speaker 3: and everything just completely unravels. So, I can't speak to
5:57
Speaker 3: if he's running out of gas, what that might be.
6:00
Speaker 2: But, I mean, you're right. The optics of it don't
6:03
Speaker 2: look great.
6:04
Speaker 3: And it also seems like when he gets into these
6:06
Speaker 3: situations where the ball starts rolling down the hill, he
6:10
Speaker 3: doesn't have any way to stop it.
6:13
Speaker 1: So he said that part of the problem last night
6:16
Speaker 1: was he was getting ahead with the bottom of the order,
6:19
Speaker 1: but not the top. And those are the guys that
6:21
Speaker 1: are going to. make you pay a price, especially with
6:24
Speaker 1: the guys that they got, because they got a little
6:27
Speaker 1: thump in there. But his curveball was pretty good last night.
6:32
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking going forward, because he's talked about location.
6:36
Speaker 1: He's talked about being a little more confident with throwing
6:40
Speaker 1: strikes and getting ahead of guys. And as we point out,
6:44
Speaker 1: they need Libby in this rotation. Now, what do you
6:47
Speaker 1: see from him going forward? What do you think's around
6:50
Speaker 1: the corner? Will he make the, we've seen this before too,
6:53
Speaker 1: where he's had bad starts, but you mentioned the previous
6:56
Speaker 1: two starts were pretty good. There was the last start
6:59
Speaker 1: before this one, where he gave up a home run.
7:01
Speaker 1: The one before was better than that. So we've seen
7:04
Speaker 1: him make corrections. What do you think's ahead for him?
7:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't, I wish I had an answer to
7:09
Speaker 3: that question. He's got a plus five ERA for the season.
7:12
Speaker 3: So the overall body of work this year has not
7:16
Speaker 3: been very good for Libertor. Now I talked about this
7:19
Speaker 3: on my post game show last night. Two weeks ago,
7:21
Speaker 3: three weeks ago, when we were talking about Libertor, if
7:23
Speaker 3: you wanted to have the conversation about does this guy
7:26
Speaker 3: deserve to go to the bullpen or should he go
7:28
Speaker 3: to the bullpen, that was a conversation that could be had.
7:31
Speaker 3: We can't have that conversation right now. He has to
7:33
Speaker 3: take the ball every fifth day. Even with the four
7:36
Speaker 3: innings that he pitched last night, because a lot of
7:38
Speaker 3: people were saying to me, well, he doesn't give you length. Well,
7:41
Speaker 3: all of his August starts had been at least five innings,
7:43
Speaker 3: and two of the four had been six innings. He
7:46
Speaker 3: actually has been giving you more length than just about
7:48
Speaker 3: anybody else in the rotation here in the very recent history.
7:52
Speaker 3: So he's not being taken out of the rotation right
7:55
Speaker 3: now from a survival standpoint.
7:57
Speaker 2: You need him to take that ball every fifth day.
8:00
Speaker 2: You need him to eat innings.
8:01
Speaker 3: But Jim, at the same time, the goal shouldn't be
8:04
Speaker 3: just a guy who eats innings. The goal should be
8:06
Speaker 3: a guy who can go out and win you a
8:08
Speaker 3: ball game. And he has those flashes. He has those
8:12
Speaker 3: moments often enough that I've never really thought that his
8:16
Speaker 3: spot in the rotation was threatened.
8:18
Speaker 2: I think the the thing with the Cardinals.
8:20
Speaker 3: And if I knew the answer to this, I probably
8:21
Speaker 3: wouldn't be talking to you on this podcast right now.
8:24
Speaker 3: The question is what can they do? That's going to
8:27
Speaker 3: find a little bit more consistency. The Cardinals will tell you,
8:30
Speaker 3: I've heard Oliver Marmel say this, the Cardinals will tell
8:32
Speaker 3: you he is just as good as just about any
8:36
Speaker 3: other pitcher in baseball at putting up zeros. The number
8:39
Speaker 3: of scoreless innings he pitches is right on par with
8:43
Speaker 3: just about every other good pitcher in baseball. The problem is,
8:47
Speaker 3: Those innings where he does give up runs, he doesn't
8:50
Speaker 3: give up one or two runs. He gives up multiple runs,
8:53
Speaker 3: and that's where he really gets beat up. So I
8:55
Speaker 3: don't know if that's the answer to your question on
8:57
Speaker 3: where you go from here. I don't really have the
8:59
Speaker 3: answer except to know that I think he's still going
9:01
Speaker 3: to be taking the ball every fifth day through the
9:03
Speaker 3: duration of this season.
9:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, no one has the answer, and I ask you
9:06
Speaker 1: that question hoping for some feedback and understanding that no
9:11
Speaker 1: one has the answer because if they had the answer,
9:13
Speaker 1: the fix would have been made already. I'll tell you what,
9:16
Speaker 1: Lance Ling– tells me about Libby. He loves Libby too,
9:19
Speaker 1: and he said, look, I'm going to give you the
9:21
Speaker 1: ball every time it's your turn to start, and you're
9:24
Speaker 1: going to throw 100 pitches, and you're going to get
9:26
Speaker 1: us through this and pat him on the back because
9:29
Speaker 1: Lance believes it's in there for Libby.
9:31
Speaker 2: I hope he's right.
9:32
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here. We're going
9:34
Speaker 1: to come back in just a second. You're watching Cardinal
9:36
Speaker 1: Territory on the Foul Territory Network.
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10:41
Speaker 1: So yesterday, some news. Mason Wynn, who was dealing with
10:44
Speaker 1: a left thumb issue, jammed it. sliding into second base
10:48
Speaker 1: or trying to grab second base in the Cincinnati series.
10:52
Speaker 1: Turned out there's a fracture in there. He goes on
10:54
Speaker 1: the I.L. retroactive to the 22nd. So he says he'll
10:57
Speaker 1: be back for the upcoming road trip. Doesn't think it's
11:00
Speaker 1: anything too serious. Nolan Gorman brought back by the Cardinals.
11:04
Speaker 1: Now you look at Gorman's numbers, 180-something in the minors,
11:07
Speaker 1: but a lot of home runs, I think 13 in
11:10
Speaker 1: like 49 games, showed some power. And he's hoping some
11:14
Speaker 1: of the things he was working on, will finally take
11:17
Speaker 1: root and he'll show better. We didn't see it last night.
11:20
Speaker 1: What are you looking for from Nolan Gorman?
11:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, just limit the strikeouts a little bit, make more contact.
11:28
Speaker 3: And if you do that, he's going to, he's going
11:30
Speaker 3: to hit home runs and he's going to be a
11:32
Speaker 3: really solid big league player. He hasn't shown that recently.
11:36
Speaker 3: That's been the problem. And I know the overall numbers
11:39
Speaker 3: at AAA for him did not look great.
11:42
Speaker 2: You have to, you have to wipe out some of them.
11:44
Speaker 2: And this is not me just trying to spin numbers.
11:49
Speaker 3: When he first got there, he was working on stuff
11:52
Speaker 3: and what he was doing at three o'clock in the
11:55
Speaker 3: afternoon might not play out in the, in the evening time.
11:59
Speaker 3: So specifically, if you look at the month of August
12:02
Speaker 3: for him in, in the minor leagues, his numbers were
12:06
Speaker 3: pretty good. I think it was a plus 900 OPS.
12:09
Speaker 3: If I, if I remember correctly, and the month of
12:12
Speaker 3: August was, a 903 OPS in Memphis, and a 220
12:16
Speaker 3: batting average. Now, that's what you want to see at
12:19
Speaker 3: the big league level, right? And he had seven home
12:21
Speaker 3: runs to go along with that in August. Doing it
12:24
Speaker 3: in AAA and doing it in Major League Baseball are
12:27
Speaker 3: two very, very different things. But those are the numbers
12:30
Speaker 3: you are looking for. I think a 220 batting average
12:33
Speaker 3: is the sweet spot for Gorman. If Gorman's a 220 hitter,
12:37
Speaker 3: I think he's in the neighborhood of 30 home runs.
12:39
Speaker 3: And I think his OPS is 750 or above. And
12:41
Speaker 3: that's a ball player that you can go win some
12:43
Speaker 3: games with. Can he do that at the major league level? Again,
12:47
Speaker 3: not to keep a theme going, a question that I
12:50
Speaker 3: don't have the answer to Jim, but I'm really interested
12:53
Speaker 3: in seeing. And I think the Cardinals are interested too.
12:55
Speaker 3: A lot of people wondered because Thomas and JC has
12:58
Speaker 3: actually been putting up better numbers than Gorman here recently
13:00
Speaker 3: at AAA. So people were asking, why is the decision
13:03
Speaker 3: Gorman over JC? I think there's more urgency there. on
13:07
Speaker 3: figuring out Gorman and whether or not these changes he
13:11
Speaker 3: has made recently at AAA are something that he can
13:13
Speaker 3: bring to the big leagues and can actually be sustainable. You,
13:17
Speaker 3: you're not forced to make any type of decision on.
13:19
Speaker 3: So JC, he's not going to be getting into the
13:21
Speaker 3: money for a while there. You've got time. You don't
13:24
Speaker 3: have as much time with Gorman. You got to figure out,
13:27
Speaker 3: is this somebody that you want to move on from?
13:29
Speaker 3: Is this somebody that, You want to have in a
13:32
Speaker 3: competition for a starting third base job next year. Is
13:35
Speaker 3: this somebody that's nothing more than a platoon third baseman?
13:39
Speaker 3: I mean, there's all kinds of scenarios that can play out.
13:42
Speaker 3: And now that he's on a little bit of a
13:44
Speaker 3: role at Memphis, I think getting him up here and
13:47
Speaker 3: giving him some run and seeing if any of it
13:49
Speaker 3: can translate to the big leagues, there's a ton of
13:51
Speaker 3: value in that for this team.
13:54
Speaker 1: See, and he knows who he is as a hitter too.
13:56
Speaker 1: first of all, he's done it at the big league level.
13:59
Speaker 1: We know he has big league power, no question about it.
14:02
Speaker 1: But he basically said, look, if I can cut down
14:05
Speaker 1: on the strikeouts and bring some power, I can help
14:08
Speaker 1: this team win. He knows who he is. And the
14:11
Speaker 1: numbers you point out, like you're 220, but you're hitting
14:15
Speaker 1: 30 homers. You're going to have a job for a long,
14:18
Speaker 1: long time, somewhere in major league baseball because power plays.
14:23
Speaker 2: It does.
14:23
Speaker 3: And the Cardinals don't have a lot of it. That's,
14:26
Speaker 3: That's something that they're trying to fix. That's why Joshua
14:29
Speaker 3: Baez being here is exciting because he's somebody who brings
14:33
Speaker 3: legitimate power. Nolan Gorman has legitimate power. There's just, there's
14:37
Speaker 3: not a lot of guys in the higher levels of
14:40
Speaker 3: the organization, big league and triple a that's got a
14:43
Speaker 3: ton of power.
14:45
Speaker 1: Now, no disrespect to JJ Weatherholt, who is an unbelievably
14:50
Speaker 1: good defensive player at second base at shortstop and Look,
14:54
Speaker 1: they had to get him off his feet last night.
14:56
Speaker 1: Been putting a lot of innings, a lot of work.
14:58
Speaker 1: And he's kind of beat up a little bit now, too.
15:01
Speaker 1: But give me Mason when it's short and JJ at
15:04
Speaker 1: second base for years and years to come. You know,
15:08
Speaker 1: when Wynn's not in there, it's short stuff. And again,
15:10
Speaker 1: he's got the fractured left thumb or a fracture in there.
15:14
Speaker 1: When he's not in there, to me, the defense looks
15:17
Speaker 1: totally different because his range is unbelievable. And I don't
15:21
Speaker 1: know what the analytics say about his range. I know
15:22
Speaker 1: what my eyes tell me. He gets the balls a
15:25
Speaker 1: lot of guys can't, and that arm is the equalizer
15:28
Speaker 1: because if he can get to a ball, there's a
15:31
Speaker 1: good chance he'll throw a guy out where I'm not
15:33
Speaker 1: sure anyone else in baseball can make the throws he makes,
15:37
Speaker 1: and they miss that. When he's not in there defensively,
15:40
Speaker 1: to me it's a different ballgame for the Cardinals.
15:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's one of one.
15:44
Speaker 3: I remember thinking all the time Nolan Arnotto would make plays,
15:47
Speaker 3: and I would go, man, he's the only guy walking
15:49
Speaker 3: the face of the earth who can go make that play.
15:51
Speaker 2: I have those thoughts about Mason Wynn. all the time.
15:54
Speaker 2: He'll make a play.
15:55
Speaker 3: And I'll say there is not a single other shortstop
15:58
Speaker 3: in major league baseball. Who's making that play.
16:00
Speaker 2: There was a play in.
16:01
Speaker 3: Last night's game, and this is not a shot at
16:02
Speaker 3: weather hold at all. It's nice to have a guy
16:04
Speaker 3: who you can slide over to shortstop. And the defense
16:07
Speaker 3: is perfectly fine from weather hold at shortstop, but there
16:10
Speaker 3: was a play yesterday deep in the hole where he
16:13
Speaker 3: was not able to get the throw over in time.
16:15
Speaker 3: And it did go through my mind in that moment. Hey,
16:17
Speaker 3: if when is there, is that an out and not
16:20
Speaker 3: a hit? And, I think it probably was. He is
16:23
Speaker 3: so much fun to watch, and it just sets everything
16:25
Speaker 3: else up. His range is good, especially when you've got
16:27
Speaker 3: Blaze Jordan over at third base who doesn't have a
16:30
Speaker 3: ton of range. It helps you at third. He makes
16:33
Speaker 3: Weatherholt a better second baseman being at shortstop. So you're right.
16:37
Speaker 3: That is as good of a double play combination as
16:39
Speaker 3: exists in baseball. Mason Wynn is the best defensive shortstop
16:42
Speaker 3: in baseball. The Cardinals are so much better when he's
16:45
Speaker 3: in there.
16:46
Speaker 1: That play that was deep in the hole, Same thing
16:49
Speaker 1: crossed my mind. I don't know if Mason could have
16:52
Speaker 1: thrown that guy out because, because I mean, it wasn't
16:55
Speaker 1: even a close play at first, but I think there's
16:59
Speaker 1: a shot because that arm is a difference maker. And
17:02
Speaker 1: I think he might've thrown that guy out as well. I,
17:05
Speaker 1: you know, there's also some too with the energy he
17:07
Speaker 1: brings in the dugout. He's one of those guys. He's
17:11
Speaker 1: not going to talk to the media every day. I
17:13
Speaker 1: get that, but he's a leader on that, on that
17:16
Speaker 1: ball club. And, And I think, you know, even if
17:19
Speaker 1: he's around but you're injured, maybe it's not the same.
17:22
Speaker 1: But I'm not so sure he gets enough credit for
17:24
Speaker 1: being one of the real leaders on that young ball club.
17:28
Speaker 2: No, I think that's right.
17:29
Speaker 3: And just the work that he puts in on an
17:31
Speaker 3: everyday basis, there's leadership in that.
17:34
Speaker 2: And, Jim, you saw him yesterday. He was trying to
17:37
Speaker 2: do stuff.
17:38
Speaker 3: There was so much activity for Mason Wynn for a
17:40
Speaker 3: guy who really couldn't do anything. When they were out
17:43
Speaker 3: on the field, he was walking around. You could tell
17:45
Speaker 3: he just wanted to be out there. he's dealt with
17:48
Speaker 3: injuries throughout his career. He has missed time. He tries
17:50
Speaker 3: to play through it. Sometimes I wonder, do the Cardinals
17:53
Speaker 3: actually need to do more of saying to him, hey,
17:55
Speaker 3: you know what, we're just going to get you on
17:57
Speaker 3: the injured list and we're going to sit you down
17:58
Speaker 3: for 10 days as opposed to doing the thing where
18:01
Speaker 3: they really try to let him play through it or
18:04
Speaker 3: take a day or two off and maybe get in
18:06
Speaker 3: there as a defensive replacement and then you just realize
18:08
Speaker 3: it's not working. The injury stuff and him going to
18:11
Speaker 3: the IL, it's been a little bit quirky over the years.
18:14
Speaker 3: I think it was a little bit quirky this time.
18:16
Speaker 3: but I think it all goes back to who he
18:19
Speaker 3: is as a ball player who just so desperately wants
18:22
Speaker 3: to be out there in any given moment and is
18:25
Speaker 3: willing to do the work to make that happen.
18:28
Speaker 2: I'm with you.
18:29
Speaker 5: All right.
18:29
Speaker 1: McGreevy goes for the Cardinals today. He's at 137 innings.
18:33
Speaker 1: I think his career high, and this was in the
18:36
Speaker 1: minor leagues, 153 innings. Are we going to start to
18:41
Speaker 1: see him limited, which is exactly what the Cardinals don't
18:44
Speaker 1: need right now because he's They're going to need innings,
18:47
Speaker 1: but bless his heart, McGreevy, in spite of getting no
18:52
Speaker 1: run support at all, has been really, really solid this season.
18:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not, I don't think they're as worried with
18:59
Speaker 3: his innings as they are with the other. I'm trying
19:01
Speaker 3: to do math in my head right now, which is
19:03
Speaker 3: always a tough situation. Last year between the big leagues
19:06
Speaker 3: and the minor leagues, he was at 160.
19:07
Speaker 2: So he's at 137 right now.
19:08
Speaker 3: You can go up, you know, 20% or so from
19:15
Speaker 3: one year to the next. So I don't think the
19:17
Speaker 3: watch Oliver Marmel talk in pregame today and say, they're
19:20
Speaker 3: going to start watching the innings for McGreevy. And that
19:22
Speaker 3: looks like I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about,
19:25
Speaker 3: but I don't get the sense that the innings for
19:27
Speaker 3: him is something that they're.
19:29
Speaker 2: Worried about the way they are with Leahy.
19:31
Speaker 3: I do think that watching what he has done post
19:35
Speaker 3: all-star is notable in the seven games since the all-star break,
19:38
Speaker 3: he does have a 5.05 ERA that follows a 3.01
19:40
Speaker 3: ERA that in the pre all star break portion of
19:45
Speaker 3: the year. So you'd like for him to kind of
19:47
Speaker 3: find it once again, I'm not saying he has to
19:49
Speaker 3: pitch to a three ERA. I didn't think that was
19:52
Speaker 3: sustainable as much as I liked as much as I
19:54
Speaker 3: like Michael McGreevy, but I do think there's a little
19:56
Speaker 3: bit more in the tank in terms of what he's
19:58
Speaker 3: done here recently. And again, to go back to a
20:02
Speaker 3: common theme with this team, the team needs innings and
20:05
Speaker 3: the team needs production right now to the starting pitching.
20:07
Speaker 3: They've gotten it all season long. This has been basically a,
20:10
Speaker 3: a top 10 rotation. They're in a bit of a
20:12
Speaker 3: rut right now. Michael McGreevy with his role on this team,
20:16
Speaker 3: he's somebody who I think there's a responsibility that he
20:19
Speaker 3: has to be part of lifting that rotation back out
20:21
Speaker 3: of that rut.
20:22
Speaker 1: I'm with you, except it's his first full season, you know,
20:26
Speaker 1: as a big league starter that comes with some stress.
20:30
Speaker 1: I've heard, I've heard them talk about that with other pitchers.
20:33
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if at some point in the not
20:35
Speaker 1: too distant future, they're going to say, all right, we're
20:37
Speaker 1: going to keep an eye on his innings too. We're
20:40
Speaker 1: going to take our final break. You are watching Cardinal
20:42
Speaker 1: Territory on the Foul Territory Network.
20:45
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20:49
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20:52
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21:04
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21:07
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21:10
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21:12
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21:16
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21:17
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21:20
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21:22
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21:27
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21:46
Speaker 1: So I was on Matt Pawley's show on KMOX Radio
21:49
Speaker 1: the other night, and I think we agree on this
21:51
Speaker 1: because I heard him saying it on the radio even
21:53
Speaker 1: before I was on the program. But fans have to
21:57
Speaker 1: realize that this is a rebuild. It's been a rebuild.
22:02
Speaker 1: And rebuilds come with some pain, generally speaking. And so
22:07
Speaker 1: far this season, there's been ups and downs and some
22:11
Speaker 1: bumps in the road. There hasn't been a lot of
22:14
Speaker 1: pain because the Cardinals have exceeded expectations. I think this
22:18
Speaker 1: is where the pain starts. But fans have to.
22:22
Speaker 5: Understand they've been transparent that this year they're going to
22:27
Speaker 5: try to win every game, but they're focused on the
22:29
Speaker 5: long-term range of making themselves better for future games.
22:33
Speaker 1: Runs at a World Series title, and they did that.
22:36
Speaker 1: They stockpiled their minor league system with the most important
22:40
Speaker 1: asset in baseball, which is controllable young talent, especially pitchers.
22:45
Speaker 1: So the Cardinals have done what they said they were
22:47
Speaker 1: going to do all along, which is build for the future.
22:50
Speaker 1: The problem is right now there's some injuries, things aren't
22:54
Speaker 1: going well, and now it's painful.
22:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, from the day Heimblum took over, he made it
23:00
Speaker 3: very clear that, especially in the short term, When they've
23:03
Speaker 3: got a decision in front of them and you go
23:05
Speaker 3: one way on a decision that's going to benefit the
23:08
Speaker 3: long term and you go the other way on a
23:09
Speaker 3: decision that's going to benefit the short term, they are
23:11
Speaker 3: going to do it for the long term.
23:13
Speaker 2: Their goal, it's not just to sneak into the playoffs.
23:17
Speaker 3: Their goal is to be a team that on paper
23:18
Speaker 3: looks like a true World Series contender and it's going
23:21
Speaker 3: to take a little bit of time to get there.
23:24
Speaker 3: And I hear from fans all the time, well, they
23:27
Speaker 3: should have never traded Wilson Contreras.
23:28
Speaker 2: They should have never traded Sonny Gray. They should have
23:30
Speaker 2: never traded.
23:31
Speaker 3: Some people say that a little bit about Brendan Donovan,
23:33
Speaker 3: but at the same time, because of what you've gotten
23:35
Speaker 3: from JJ Weatherholt, I think that narrative has been quieted
23:38
Speaker 3: down a little bit from the fans.
23:40
Speaker 2: And I just, I do tend to remind people that, yeah, they've,
23:44
Speaker 2: they've played better.
23:46
Speaker 3: Than what a lot of people expected this year, but
23:49
Speaker 3: that did not change what the organization is trying to do.
23:53
Speaker 3: You could be going through a full rebuild and you
23:55
Speaker 3: could look like the Cubs, or you could look like
23:57
Speaker 3: the Astros where you, you're losing a hundred plus games
24:01
Speaker 3: and you have just torn it completely down to the nub,
24:04
Speaker 3: or you can do what the Cardinals are doing where
24:07
Speaker 3: they are going through a rebuild. They are trying to
24:10
Speaker 3: accomplish the same things that teams like the Cubs and
24:12
Speaker 3: Astros did, but at the same time, they're actually playing
24:15
Speaker 3: competitive baseball at the big league level. They're actually in
24:18
Speaker 3: playoff contention at the end of August, which one of
24:21
Speaker 3: those scenarios is better. I would argue that playing games
24:24
Speaker 3: that matter are, while you're still doing all these other
24:26
Speaker 3: things underneath the surface, that is a much better situation.
24:29
Speaker 3: And I understand you want to see the big league
24:32
Speaker 3: team when they want to win. You know, Oliver Marmel
24:35
Speaker 3: has never said, I'm not going to win this game
24:37
Speaker 3: today because we're in a rebuild.
24:39
Speaker 2: That's not the attitude.
24:41
Speaker 3: But organizationally, they don't have some things that are going
24:45
Speaker 3: for them at the big league level that other teams
24:48
Speaker 3: do have. And Jim, I would also say this, because
24:51
Speaker 3: one of the most common complaints that I heard in
24:56
Speaker 3: recent years before the regime change was that the Cardinals
25:00
Speaker 3: were just putting band-aids on the big league roster and
25:04
Speaker 3: they were just doing barely enough to maybe, maybe be
25:08
Speaker 3: a playoff team. And there wasn't this sense that they
25:10
Speaker 3: were going all in to try to win at the
25:13
Speaker 3: highest level.
25:14
Speaker 2: Well, now they're doing that.
25:15
Speaker 3: Maybe it's taking a little bit longer than fans would like,
25:18
Speaker 3: but to me there is, I chuckle sometimes because it's,
25:22
Speaker 3: The thing that people really complained about with the Cardinals
25:26
Speaker 3: for years, I don't know if it's the same people
25:30
Speaker 3: or another group of people, but now that's the thing
25:32
Speaker 3: that there almost seems to be a desire for that
25:35
Speaker 3: they were just doing a little bit more at the
25:37
Speaker 3: major league level.
25:39
Speaker 1: Fans want to win, and I get it. But at
25:41
Speaker 1: the same point, you also kind of realize the Cardinals
25:46
Speaker 1: had to change something up when they did have a
25:49
Speaker 1: regime change, as you point out. Things were going to
25:51
Speaker 1: be different. And right now, to me, they're in a
25:53
Speaker 1: situation where they've got a blanket that doesn't really fit
25:57
Speaker 1: the bed. So you pull it up and your feet
25:59
Speaker 1: are sticking out. So, you know, you pull it down.
26:01
Speaker 1: You're not getting coverage up top. That's kind of where
26:03
Speaker 1: they are based on the limitations of the roster right now.
26:07
Speaker 1: But if you look at the other side of the coin,
26:09
Speaker 1: number two, minor league system in baseball, that's a huge upgrade.
26:14
Speaker 1: I think they're on the right path, but it's going
26:16
Speaker 1: to take some time. What do you think, though? The
26:19
Speaker 1: rest of the season, you've said it, I've said it,
26:21
Speaker 1: just when you think the Cardinals are at the low point,
26:24
Speaker 1: and right now could be the low point of the season,
26:26
Speaker 1: I don't know, might be, right? Is there going to
26:29
Speaker 1: be some punching back and are we going to see
26:31
Speaker 1: some fun baseball? Because if they can play some fun baseball,
26:35
Speaker 1: win some games, even if they don't get in, I'm
26:38
Speaker 1: on board because it's an exciting young team.
26:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I lean yes. I think this next week is
26:43
Speaker 2: a really important time.
26:44
Speaker 3: Just if you can survive until Andre Palante comes back
26:47
Speaker 3: off the injured list, They haven't really given us a
26:49
Speaker 3: timetable yet on Hunter Dobbins.
26:51
Speaker 2: You really hope that he's able to get back.
26:53
Speaker 3: If Quinn Matthews finds a sea legs a little bit,
26:55
Speaker 3: if that pitching just stabilizes a little bit with the
26:58
Speaker 3: starting rotation, there's going to be the domino effect on
27:01
Speaker 3: the bullpen. And then I do think at that point
27:04
Speaker 3: they can kind of get back to doing what they
27:06
Speaker 3: have done most of the season. But Jim, if, if
27:09
Speaker 3: starting pitching struggles the way it has here recently, it's,
27:14
Speaker 3: it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough
27:16
Speaker 3: for them. to get back above 500 for them to
27:18
Speaker 3: remain in legitimate playoff contention. So because I've seen it
27:23
Speaker 3: happen time and time and time again, I'll say, yeah,
27:26
Speaker 3: I think it's going to happen where they are going
27:28
Speaker 3: to punch their way out of this somehow, some way.
27:31
Speaker 3: But that being said, I really don't truly know the
27:34
Speaker 3: answer to that question. And that's why we watch the
27:36
Speaker 3: games every night.
27:38
Speaker 1: Get well soon, Andre Palante. Matt, you were great. We
27:42
Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on the show today.
27:45
Speaker 2: Thanks, Jim. Thanks for having me. I loved it.
27:47
Speaker 1: That's going to do it for this edition of Cardinal Territory.
27:50
Speaker 1: We'll see you for the next episode. Hopefully, that one
27:53
Speaker 1: won't suck.