Latest / ADHDtime On Air / Overcoming the Wall of Awful with Brendan Mahan
Transcript
- Daniella Karidi, PhD: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining me at ADHD Time on Air. I'm gonna be talking about something very awful. No, I'm joking. I'm talking about overcoming the wall of awful with Brandon, an author of a new book that I got a sneak peek, but you guys are gonna have to wait until September. But pre-order it and so you get a chance to experience. and read or listen to this book because it has a load of information and hopefully we're gonna pull out some of this amazing insights, how to overcome some of these big struggles we have by speaking with Brandon. So welcome. Brendan: Yeah, thank you for for having me. Daniella Karidi, PhD: well I'm gonna start with the obvious. What is the wall of waffles? Brendan: So the wall of awful is the emotional barrier that gets built when we fail, right? So sometimes you fail once and it's no big deal and it doesn't matter. There's no real barrier there. It's just a couple of pebbles of hard emotions that were there in the moment and then they go away. But when you're neurodiverse, you tend to like you're like a round peg in a square hole, right? So we just fail more than people who are neurotypical and we struggle in areas that Are sometimes surprising to us, sometimes surprising the people around us. And with that comes some challenging emotions, some difficult stuff. So as we struggle and fail and have these mishaps, those emotions build up and build up and build up and form this wall that I call the wall of awful. And in order to do the task that we failed at regularly, or tasks similar to that, we have to deal with this wall. And then deal with the task, right? So if I struggle to let's say pay my taxes, then once a year or maybe quarterly, depending on how what kind of job you have, I have to deal with this taxes stuff and and kind of figure out how am I gonna do the thing that I want to do? How am I gonna pay this tax bill? But before I pay the tax bill, I'm like, man, I feel anxious, I feel scared, I feel overwhelmed. And that's me dealing with this wall. To the outside observer, it often looks like procrastination. It looks like you're not doing anything. But you're doing a lot of emotional work. It's just not obvious. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I appreciate that summary. I I read the book and really liked it. I'm gonna start with that, but Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I'm gonna start with a question that I don't know if you get asked a lot. how was it writing a book when you have ADHD? Brendan: Yeah, so the book I'll I'll hold up the cover and you'll see that it's by Brendan Mahan with Alex Hughes Capell, right? Like that's the that's the deal. And that's I had help, basically. Like I I people have been asking for this book for a a decade. People have been asking for this book since before I had enough content to even write a book. and Alex is a a ghostwriter. I didn't want to keep her name off the book. So I was like, you're getting credit for the work you're doing because that just sits better with me. Other people can do what they do. and having her support really helped get the book written. We the way we did it is I talked about the stuff for two hours about once a week. Sometimes we did we went twice. We basically talked through a chapter for about two hours. and then she would kind of go and do the typing part. She would write it. And then send it to me and then I would edit and revise and that kind of stuff. With the exception of chapters two, we put that in late and wrote it together. interestingly, there's a companion workbook that'll be coming out in September in I'm sorry, in February to go along with the book. Basically, it was the flip for the workbook. I wrote the workbook and she kind of did the editing and revising and stuff. but it's all the the content is all me, right? So we we had a conversation at one point where she was like, Where I said to her, I was like, I I'm so grateful to be teamed with you because you're doing the hard part. You're doing the like typing, basically. Like that what to me feels laborious. And she was like, No, that's the easy part. You're doing the hard part. You had to figure all this stuff out and come up with it and come up with ways to say it that's useful and informative and meaningful and all that stuff. So and I I don't mean to say she just typed, because she added, she added so much to this book. There were a lot of situations where I was just too close to it and didn't have the a lens of the reader that Alex Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Brendan: did, right? So Alex was able to say, Brendan, you're like ten miles down the road and we gotta back up before we start because no one's gonna understand what's going on. and that was really powerful for me. That was important for me. because I've been doing it for a decade, right? So I'm ten steps ahead and don't even know I'm ten tet steps ahead. To me, this is where we start. And I can do that with a client, right? With a client, I can be ten steps ahead and just bring them ten steps ahead and we go from there. But someone who's reading needs those foundational steps. So so we built we made sure we put those in and made sure we gave people what they needed. Yeah, it was working with Alex is a is a dream. She I cannot say enough good things about her and the the stuff she contributed to this book. I really don't want to make it sound like I'm belittling her when I'm like she did the typing. I'm sort of saying that facetiously, right? Like she's also organizing things and helping to make sure that the sentence are f are phrased in a way they need to be sent phrased and that stuff. It f it was just a great experience. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So not doing it alone was your magic trick and finding some Brendan: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: partner that is that that worked with you. I I and get Brendan: And gets it. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: it. I think that I feel like that sometimes when I think about when I use audiobooks and people are like, you know, you're you're I'm like, no, I'm just not doing the reading alone. I'm just doing this with someone else. Brendan: Right. I have to find it. Can I read the intro to the audiobook? Is that okay? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes. my god, that will be so much fun. Brendan: the audiobook preamble. This is the audiobook preamble that I I wrote it last minute. It was like a week out for me recording the audiobook and I was I saw a thing on threads where people were like, listening to a book isn't really reading, and I was like, hold me back. So I did this instead of getting in a fight on the internet. Daniella Karidi, PhD: that's always a win. Brendan: Yeah, so here's the in here's the preamble. Before we begin, I want to take a moment to address the elephant in the room. There are those out there who claim that listening to an audiobook isn't reading. That's some nonsense. Many of you are listening to this because it makes reading this book easier. Maybe it lets you fit reading in while you're commuting to work. Maybe you're listening while you walk. Maybe you're using this audiobook. Because you're blind, have dyslexia, or just have trouble staying focused on the written word, but can attend perfectly well to a book that is spoken. Don't let the haters keep you down. This is reading. You're a reader. I'm glad you're here. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Aw, you I you're you're you're preaching to the choir and but I love it. I I I I am in. and thank you. As someone that read slash listened to 122 books last year, I'm Brendan: Wow. Daniella Karidi, PhD: a big, big, big consumer of audio information. Being dyslectic, ADHD, that combo definitely allows me to consume auditory information a lot more than. written information. But my favorite combo is both. So I am going when the audio comes out, listen and look at the book, because that's the best way. I also Brendan: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: do like my trophies, the books behind me. I Brendan: Yep, yep, I agree. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I do like collecting them and holding them and so I can't wait to hold your hard copy or soft copy or whatever of the book. Brendan: And when you're listening, when you're listening and also reading, you can write stuff in the book to Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes. Brendan: cement your learning. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes, definitely. So while I was reading, I I wrote a bunch of questions. Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: and one of them that I'm gonna gonna start with is kind of about the idea that there's a bunch of ways to cross a obstacle, to go over a a wall of awful, right? Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: and as a dyslectic, like reading for me is like hitting my head up against the wall. It's it's it's it's really taking myself and and and insisting on on I'm doing it maybe the wrong way. So tell us a little bit about the different ways to cross the ball and why there's two that you think are the right way. Brendan: So the the in terms of getting past the wall, right, there's five ways that people try. Two don't work. One works but isn't that great, and then there's two that work pretty effectively. So the fur the two ways that don't work are staring at it and going around it, right? You're just looking at the wall or you're trying to really avoid the problem or avoid the situation. those are are freeze and flight of fight, flight, and freeze. The fight part of the stress response is smash. That's where you're smashing through the wall of waffle. Typically it's anger or anxiety that we're facing, we're using to get through, right? The wall is this big mass of emotions. They're mostly sedentary and sort of st stationary and slowing us down. We use energetic emotions to push through it, right? So we're pushing through with anger, we're pushing through with frustration, we're pushing through with anxiety. But that those emotions often are sort of unfocused and that like we smash into the wall and then there's all this shrapnel of negative emotions and rubble that goes flying and it hits us and it hits other people. We're damaging relationships with ourselves, we're damaging relationships with other people because these emotions sort of flash and splash around us. So it works, but it's not always great because it because it can cause that extra secondary damage that we want to avoid if we can. Sometimes you can smash and not cause any extra damage and good for you, right? That's basically putting a door in it. Because putting a door in the wall is about changing your emotional state. It's just I'm in this negative spot right now and I need to be in a better lens. So how do I change my emotional state? What do I do? I might get angry or get frustrated or get anxious and use that. I might also listen to us to music and get motivated to go and do a thing. I might listen to a podcast like this, and that might help me get moving. I might work with someone else, right? Working with Alex put a door in my wall. That's what that's what I was doing. And I talk about that in the book that working with Alex is a wall of awful strategy that I applied to getting this book done. so there's there's a bunch of ways to put a door in the wall. The the two main broad strategies for putting a door in the wall are soothing your anxiety, so just or your anger or whatever the emotions are, right? Soothing those emotions and then activating yourself with better emotions, right? So getting yourself rolling. So I might listen to a song that relaxes me, and then I might listen to an energetic song. And those now I've got a door and I'm through. I might go for a walk in the woods. And while I'm walking in the woods and soothing myself, maybe I listen to a podcast that I feel motive is motivating. By the time I'm done taking my 20 minute walk, I'm ready to go, or my five minute walk. Climbing is slower. And really, if you're taking a 20 minute walk, you're probably climbing more than putting a door in it. Doors are pretty quick. Climbing is about processing the emotions that are inside the wall, the the emotions that make make it up, so that we can come to terms with them and accept them and sort of accept the situation and get rolling or climbing in a more effective way. The more we climb, the easier the climb becomes. So it's a thing that's worth doing. It's an important part. We don't want to always put a door in it. When we put a door in the wall and that's all we do, we're not dealing with the emotions. So they st they linger and they stick around and they maybe get stronger. And we don't get stronger. So the wall becomes more intimidating, maybe to the point where putting a door and it doesn't work anymore. But Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Brendan: climbing is going to get us there. Eventually, it's going to be slower, but it's going to strengthen us. And the more we climb s the same or similar walls. the faster we get at it, right? Because we're more skilled and we're stronger. And eventually it might seem like there's no wall there at all. There is, but it might seem like there isn't one. You might like, I got rid of my wall of waffle. And I will say, no, you didn't, because that's not a thing. You just got comfortable enough with this stuff to be able to get past the wall. And the reason I say you didn't get you didn't make it go away is cause at some point you might have a life change and that wall may return. And I don't want you to feel like you failed just because the wall showed up again after five years. I don't want you to add bricks because of that. I want you to go, yeah, it's understandable that this wall came back. I'm in the middle of a massive move and I haven't slept in three days. You know, like of of course it's the stuff is harder. And stuff that used to be easy is now difficult. Like it's fine. Don't worry about it. the the two ways, main categories for climbing, are passive and active. Passive climbing is about the like the brain's default mode network and sort of mind wandering stuff, but avoiding rumination, we have to guard against the rumination part. and active climbing is like facing those emotions by yourself or with a coach or a clinician or something. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I really appreciate the the emphasis on the fact that the wall can come back as someone that specializes in life transitions, doing points of transition, even happy transition, like a marriage or Brendan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: like starting a new job, sometimes those prickly things pop up even more because of the changes. Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: and s our strategies that we've been using might not kind of help us anymore at those points because of the additional things that our systems are going through. so one of the questions I wrote here was about my the words that my clients I call them the terrible peas, procrastination and perfectionism. the terrible peas I think have a very big effect on coping with our walls of awful. Can you tell me a bit about kind of your perception about how especially the procrastination affects our ball of awful? Brendan: The wall of awful looks like procrastination, right? So it's it some of it is that. Some of it is that you're like, I'm just procrastinating. It's like, I I don't know. I don't even know. I'm wandering towards like, I don't know about procrastination being a thing. Like I'm kind of heading in that direction. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm heading in that direction where I'm like, I think when people say they're procrastinating, there's a it's a few different things combining to form procrastination, right? Like one is the wall of awful, one is like I'm just feeling all kinds of not good about this thing that I have to do. And that emotional storm, that emotional wall, is keeping me from engaging with the task, right? Because when stuff Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Brendan: is uncomfortable, we avoid it. So if I feel awkward or uncomfortable about a thing I have to do, I'm going to avoid it. The other part I of procrastination, I think, is just energy. It's just like, yeah, I'm tired, right? Like I'm toasted. And that might be physical energy, that might be emotional energy, that might be executive functioning, cognitive energy. Could be all quite all sorts of different kinds of energy. Use that word as you wish, right? Could be social energy, right? I I don't have the social battery to go hang out with people right now because I'm tight, I'm tapped out. So I I think that procrastination has a lot more to do with do I have the energy to do this thing? Then it has to do with like I'm lazy or I don't care or I'm not engaged. I take the j very genuine approach that everybody wants to do well, everyone wants to succeed and everyone wants to be included in the culture, community, family, whatever around them. And that lens changes my answers. Cause now cause procrastination really to me just means lazy. And I definitely don't believe in lazy. I rarely see procrastination used in any other way. It's like a backdoor to lazy. I don't believe in lazy. Lazy is a lack of skills, right? It it's I have reached the point of learned helplessness because I lack skills and resources to be able to do the thing I want to do and I feel like I can't do it because I don't have those skills and resources. Well, if we get you the skills and resources, you'll probably be able to do it. No one sucks at anything, they're just untrained. Right? So yeah, I don't love procrastination and I kinda fight against it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. I I think that sometimes I like challenging people that talk about procrastination and asking, is this moving things to the future or avoiding it? Because Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I think those are two different problems sometimes. moving things to the future is kind of just pushing a little bit away from that task, putting the wall maybe f more far away or closer, depending on how we look Brendan: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: at it. but but avoiding is kind of like is a different challenge. So when we say procrastination, sometimes we kind of maybe need to be more specific. And I definitely think that the approach of we are not lazy or this is not laziness, this you you might, or avoiding it is not because you don't want to do it, is a very good insight. So, which leads me to my following question. If you're a parent, a teacher, a colleague, a friend, a spouse of someone that's facing a wall of awful, what would be the best tips you would suggest to them? Brendan: The first thing you want to do is get everybody on board with this idea of the wall of offal. So teacher, parent, spouse, doesn't matter. We gotta get our stakeholders aware of what this concept is. So I need to teach my class, I need to have like a the family get all together and at least I tell them what it is and how it works. So then our language can change, right? Because instead of saying, What are you just procrastinating? I can go, hey, do you have a wall of offal for doing your homework? Right? And the kid's like, Yeah, I do. And you're like, Okay, cool, how are we gonna climb it? Right? 'Cause I can climb a wall of offal. I can put a door in a wall of offle. Procrastinating, I can't I'm already doing something. I'm procrastinating. You know what I mean? Like, or I Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Brendan: well, I'm just a procrastinator. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm, that's the worst. Brendan: Now I'm id now I identify with it, right? You can't really go, I'm just a wall of awful. Like that doesn't, I mean, someone probably's gonna try, but it doesn't really make sense. or a wall of awful, I guess, is another way you could try to do it, but it doesn't, it doesn't really work. So the wall of awful is the it's external, right? It's not a thing we do, it's not a thing we are, it's a thing that's in our way. Cool, how are we gonna get past it? What are we gonna do? Like what what strategies and ideas are in that book that we're gonna pull out and start applying. To homework, to yard work, to email, to whatever it is. and so that's where I would start is like, let's just get on the same page with this concept. And then there's all sorts of ideas in the book for how what to do and how to get past it. The gist of it is like just make the task easier. Bring bring in skills, bring in resources, let's make this task easier to do. And those skills might be getting better at math so taxes isn't as intimidating. It might also be. break the task down into smaller chunks so that it's easier to do. So let me start my taxes by looking at what my expenses are and which are tax deductible and which aren't and what's going on there. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So when I was reading the the the the book, I remembered a childhood book that I grew up with, where there's a person counting sheep in their sleep, and there's one sheep that just gets stuck and can't jump over the fence. And then they every day they find a creative way to to help the sheep go around the fence. Like go under, go around, Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: go above, go like And and it's about creativity and problem solving. And it was a children's book. And and I used it a lot when I was a substitute teacher. And I loved the book. so I went and I looked for the book while I was reading your book, and I found my little notes that I put in there. And my biggest note was, look, it never suggests us to smash down the fence. Like they had like I don't know, thousands of ideas of how and people wrote in ideas and kids kept on sending Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: in ideas to go around. But smashing the fence wasn't one of the ideas that they suggested. how do I kind of take myself or someone I love away from using that smashing the fence strategy? Like what can I what words or thoughts or skills can I bring to the conversation to bring those creative solutions instead of the smashing solution? Brendan: Yeah, I I'm gonna argue with you although I've never read that book, but I'm gonna I'm gonna know I'm not arguing, I'm just putting another lens on the book, right? I don't think that book is about creativity. I think that book is about compassion. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Okay. Brendan: Right? 'Cause they also didn't say, sucks to be you, sheep, and leave the sheep Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Brendan: behind. So it that book starts with and and part of why it probably doesn't feel like it's a book about compassion is because it it it's so infused in that book. Right. The assumption is just there that they're gonna be compassionate for this cheap sheep that can't get past the fence and they're gonna come up with ways to do it. And everyone is gonna work harder for this sheep with by way of creativity or physical effort or whatever to make sure they stay included in the in the flock. That's where we start if we got we have someone who's smashing is with compassion. Is yeah, I this is a hard thing. I'm not pretending it's not. And there are other ways to get past it that don't involve screaming and yelling and being angry at ourselves or other people and all this stuff, right? And that compassion will help them de escalate. It will help them come to a more peaceful place with their wall of awful. Not that the wall of awful isn't there, but it's not enraging them like it once did, right? And often this means we have to be able to name the emotions that are underneath that their anger. Cause that that there's always emotions hiding, or not always, but almost always emotions hiding underneath our anger. And we have to be able to figure out what those are if we're gonna move through those emotions that are otherwise obscured and away from the anger that is defending those more vulnerable feelings. so compassion is the place to begin and then we move into what about this? What about that? What are these creative ways we can come up with to get past this one? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Love it. Compassion is the first and most important step in this process. I like it. so you talk about the change cycle, which is talking about kind of like change doesn't happen with a with a magic wand. I would love it to happen with a magic wand. I if I could, I would definitely do that. But change is a process. So tell us a bit about that process, like how you see change. Brendan: Yeah, so it started with I've read a lot of these kinds of books, right? And I read it ev eventually I was like, how come none of these books talks about how to change? All of them are like, you're gonna read this book and you're gonna change, you're gonna be a different person when you're done reading the book. Like, that's the idea of all of these kinds of books. But I don't know that I've read any that were like, This is how change works. So I was wanted to include it, right? Let's talk about that. So the the book is broken into three parts. The first part is like the basic stuff. so the wall of awful anxiety and sil systems and structures are those or I'm sorry, skills and resources are the first three. Then there's this middle section that's all about the ways to get past the wall, which we've already talked about. And then the third section is kind of tying it all together. And the first chapter in there, chapter eight Is how change works. Then we move into systems and structures and then we talk about planning because that's what ties it all together. So I I really wanted to talk about change and how it takes a while, right? That that change starts with going, I think I need to change something. And that doesn't magically make the thing change, and it also doesn't magically make me do anything to change anything. Right. I often think I want to change first. And then there's all these emotions and like logistical things that get in the way of me changing. And then it's like almost like the wall of awful comes up during change, because it does. And then I can start to actually make this change. And when I change stuff, I'm gonna mess up. Like we we use the word relapse so many times that Alex was like. We have to call it out. We have to say that this is not about addiction because that word is such an addiction word and we're not using it like that. So we need to do something. There's a sidebar that's like, what's with all this relapse talk? I think that's the title of the sidebar, in fact. And it's there because it w you're gonna mess up and that's okay, right? Like part of the job my job as a coach, as an author is to say, you're gonna mess up. And the only way to make the change is to accept the fact that you're gonna mess up. So that when you do, it doesn't derail you. You can get back on the horse and try again. And every time we try to make a change and we slip and then we come back to that making that change again, we are better prepared to make the change we want to make because we've learned lessons from the previous mistakes that will help us do it. perhaps the best thing perspective on change that I got was just thinking about it in terms of weight loss. Cause I struggle with my weight. It's all my life. It's been a battle for me. And I was like, yeah. How come I think that like, I don't know, if I wanna like get up at five o'clock in the morning, why do I think that would be as easy as me losing weight has been? Or like really ten times easier. I'm like, I'll just get up at five o'clock for the rest of my life and it'll be fine. Like, no, probably not. Like I'm that's probably not what's gonna happen. and so that taking that lens of like it's hard to stop smoking, it's hard to lose weight, it's hard to Do lots of kinds of change. And we accept that in the for the sake of losing weight, stopping smoking, all that stuff. But if you're like, well, kid, you got you've been getting C's, you have to get A's now. We expect that change to be just like that. Because one, it's not us. And two, it seems like that just means do more, not do less. But yeah, I d I don't know. I just I think we take change. We see it as too simplistic and we don't give it the credit that it needs to have as an as an effort and a cycle and a process. so that was why I wanted to focus on it as heavily in the book as as we do. It's got a whole chapter. so that people can I guess so that people come into this process and go, All right, it it might take a minute. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes. I I think that's that there is this illusion that change can happen quickly, but also that it will happen consistently. And I do like the fact that you point out in the book that that's not how life works. and even if you are succeeding to move towards change, it will be kind of like almost like a country dance. They're gonna be two step forwards and one step back once in a while. Brendan: Yeah. And that's okay, right? Like that's okay. It you're not failing or a terrible person. You shouldn't get more bricks in your wall because you didn't change everything perfectly immediately and now you're fine. Right? One one of my least favorite strategies is the the si they it gets credited to Seinfeld, but it wasn't Seinfeld. Where it's like he was like just run write a joke every day and mark a on your calendar that you w wrote a joke every day and then Eventually the pressure of all of the days in a row and not wanting to break the streak will make you write a joke every day forever. And I'm like, yo, we have ADHD. Like that's not we're not doing that. That's we're not gonna be that consistent at anything. So build in forgiveness on whatever the changes that you're trying to make. Daniella Karidi, PhD: only thing we'll be consistent is in being inconsistent. Brendan: Right. Daniella Karidi, PhD: you you emphasize a lot that skills and resources are really needed for everything, for change, Brendan: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: for getting over the wall of waffle, for climbing, for opening doors. what is your favorite skills and resources? Brendan: Yeah, that's good question. my favorite resource is people. Hands down. Whenever I am facing something that I need to do, some kind of challenge, or even if like someone I care about is facing a challenge that they need to do, my brain immediately goes to who do I know that is more skilled in this area that could conceivably help or has more knowledge or connections or whatever in this area. To the point that one my best friend from college, the of like this is a couple years ago, he was like, Yeah, you're my guy who knows a guy. And I was like, cool. I'm at like I'm didn't realize I was a guy who knew a guy, but I am. and and so that's my that's my number one resource is other people. My number one skill Is probably the premortem. which we talk about in the planning chapter. The the the idea behind a pre mortem, and it's a little bit like for my list the listeners with anxiety, pump the brakes for a second, because I'm gonna yeah, pump the brakes for a second. The idea behind a a pre mortem is sort of like having anxiety, but you're doing it on purpose and not with all the emotional turmoil. You think about what you're about to do and kinda do a quick what could go wrong. Right. So that you can avoid those things that could go wrong. And it doesn't mean that I'm losing my mind about this and packing like fifteen backpacks and full of emergency supplies and things. It's not like a Batman where your backup plans have backup plans. Like we're not doing that level of stuff. It's just what are the obvious things that could go wrong? Where might this where might I misstep and how do I avoid those missteps before I go and do the thing? And that's a requires a certain level of skill. There's problem solving in there, there's planning in there, there's imagining into the future and all this kind of stuff. And sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard. Right. Yesterday, my we the wood in one of the windows in our bait in our downstairs is like rotting away because there's a bush in front of it, a huge bush. So all the water and moisture got con stuck there. so our neighbor's a contractor, he's coming to fix the windowsill. And I didn't I had the workbook that's gonna accompany the overcoming the wall of offal was due yesterday. So I'm like finishing the workbook and have no time to deal with anything. So I was had my sons who are seventeen years old, they're twins, cut the bush up, and sort of clear it out. And they're asking me questions about like, okay, well, after we do that, then what should we do and then what should we do kind of stuff. And I think I got like two layers into that and I was like, I can't plan that far ahead right now, guys. I'm sorry. Like my And it's because usually I can, but my executive functions and my focus were so taxed by finishing the workbook that I couldn't go the three, four, five layers deep that I could usually go. I was like, you're gonna have to clean the bush out and then I'll figure out what's happening. and then I used that opportunity to teach them how to think a little deeper. And we went into the bush and I was like, pretend you're Jimmy, our neighbor who's gonna work on the windowsill. And I was like, I just want you to look around and figure out how you're gonna get injured. And most of it was like sticks that were popping out that they had cut off, but not at the s not at the like trunk that were Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Brendan: sticking out a little bit. Like there's like four of those at eye level that just need to go away before Jimmy shows up 'cause don't want him to go blind. but that like that was a little moment for me to teach them, let's think into the future one step or two steps. So 'cause they need to know how to do that as they get older. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I like to ask a lot of my clients when we're thinking about something, what will be the potential obstacles, which is very similar way to to to and and I really liked that idea of thinking ahead of what can be in your way or what could come as a problem. And because even if you bring it up and you can't think of everything. Let's say we thought about the the the the but we didn't think about his belt maybe catching on something. You know, there there were we can Brendan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: think about it. The idea that we performed the exercise also let us accept the fact that there might be obstacles, that there might be challenges. It Brendan: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: it prepared us to the potential of a struggle instead of assuming, because our ADHD brains sometimes assume black and white, success or failure. There's no struggle in the middle. So having that conversation also helps us prepare for the potential struggle. Brendan: Yeah. And and I love that you brought that up because that's you just did remember I said Alex goes like burning your ten miles ahead and we need to back up to mile one? That's what you just did. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Brendan: Because I always assume there's gonna be a struggle and forget that not everybody is assuming that, right? I'm Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Brendan: like, yeah, of course it's gonna be hard. Like why wouldn't it be hard? have you Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Brendan: lived the same ADHD life that I've lived? Cause like it's just it's life on hard mode. Like, why are we not assuming it's gonna be hard? so But but I love that you brought that up because like yeah, it's something's gonna happen. Something's gonna be difficult, something's gonna be tricky, and we have to be prepared for it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. So because we're gonna run out of time, I wanna ask you if if someone is considering reading the book what would be the one thing you want them to know? What would be the takeaway that you'd say, okay, this is gonna be your takeaway from the book? Brendan: I think I have two, right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Okay. Brendan: And and they're big picture takeaways. I'm not gonna be like this specific strategy, because I don't know what strategy is gonna work for who, right? Like I that's why there's so many in the book. Cause like if you get four of them out of the book, you probably did pretty well. That's about what I get out of most books. But the bigger picture stuff of a book is usually what I find the most value in. So that's Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Brendan: where I'm gonna land. I the two big pictures that I and they they sort of work together. One we already talked about, and that is like the struggle is normal, right? There is dignity and struggle. Stuff is gonna be hard, stuff is gonna go wrong. That's the wall of awful, right? Like the wall of awful is the struggle. So that's part one is to normalize that stuff so that we don't carry guilt and shame of about things being difficult for us. While we try to do those difficult things, because that's only going to make it harder to do the difficult thing, right? It's it's like I'm trying to climb my wall of offal and I have a backpack full of bricks on top of the wall of bricks I'm trying to get past. Let's at least put the bricks in one spot, right? And so we're let's stop carrying them. And then the other big picture thing also in the title is that you can do it, right? Like I believe in you. I say that several times in the book. I believe in you, you can Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Brendan: do it. And I mean it, even though I've never met probably most of the people and never will meet most people who read this book, I still genuinely mean it. I believe in the pe readers of this book. I believe that they can get past their stuff. And that's the word overcoming, right? So the other takeaway is like you you can do this. This is a thing that is doable, regardless of what that thing is. and if it's not doable, then don't do it and put it down and don't worry about it, right? Like if it's not a thing that's If the trade-off of effort versus like benefit of doing this thing isn't worth the trade-off, then don't feel bad about not doing it. Just put it down and move on and do something else. And that's okay. so yeah, I it's the two takeaways are overcoming and the wall of awful that stuff's gonna be hard and you can do it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Love it. I'll take those takeaways. I like to ask my guest two questions. my first is, now that you're an ADHD expert, wrote a book about this, been doing this for so long, what would you have told younger self? Brendan: Are we talking middle school Brendan? Are we talking thirty year old Brendan? Open question. All right. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Open question. Go with it. Brendan: I don't know, I might tell him that he becomes the person he needed. That like you figure it out, man, and it's hard and it you gotta push through and but you become the person you need it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: And what would you tell to future Brandon? Brendan: know. I don't know what future Brandon's gonna need. Probably that like Like keep moving forward, right? But every now and then turn around and look at how far you've come. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I'll tell him you can do this. And and I will tell yourself that thank you for writing this great book and sharing it with us. and keep on doing that. Keep on sharing your metaphors and your knowledge with the audience. I think that that's really important. So Brendan: Thank you. Daniella Karidi, PhD: tell people where they can find you, where they can get the book. There'll be links, obviously, but share with the audience and then we'll say our goodbyes. Brendan: Yeah, so everything at the moment it a ADHD Essentials is most of the social media, except for the LinkedIn, which is Brendan Mahan. on the on the internet, then that stuff might start to change 'cause now the website is thewall of awful dot com or wall of awful dot com or overcoming the wall of awful dot com. I own all of those. those go to the book. Brendan Mahan goes to me. Eighty eight's the essentials goes to the podcast. so yeah, that's places people can find find me. You can pre order Daniella Karidi, PhD: Perfect. Brendan: the book at thewall of Daniella Karidi, PhD: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming and it was great talking with you. Brendan: Yeah, thank you for having me. This is awesome. Yay.