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The Body Keeps The Score. Bessel A. van der Kolk, M.D: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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Or today we even another episode from the archives with one of my incredible guests.
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Enjoy or Welcome back to the Trauma Thepist podcast. My name is Gaming
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Person. My mission is to help trauma therapists be their incredible selves, to
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be human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big
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believer in who we are is more important than what we know, and this
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requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can
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learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot
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com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. Welcome
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back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gaymick Person and today very
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excited to introduce my guest, Doctor Missile Avengercolck, Doctor Mannikok, Welcome,
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Welcome Hill. Dtor Vannecock is a clinician, researcher, and teacher in the
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area of post traumatic stress. His work integrates developmental, neurobiological, psychodynamic,
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and interpersonal aspects of the impact of trauma and its treatment. Doctor Vannekok and
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his various collaborators have published extensively on the impact of trauma on development, such
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as dissociation, borderline personality, and self mutilation. He's published over one hundred
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and fifty peer reviewed scientific articles on such diverse topics as neuroimaging, self injury,
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memory, your feedback. Doctor Vandecock is also the founder and medical director
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of the Trauma Center, past president of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies,
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and Professor of Psychiatry at Boston University Medical School. Doctor Vandecock, again,
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thank you so much for taking the time to come on here. Good
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to be here. All right, So, you know, before we were
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recording, I kind of set the stage a little bit. I read your
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book. It was amazing. I'm not just saying that one of the things
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that really struck me. And I guess I would kind of set set the
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stage by by talking about this. There was a there was a part in
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the book where you and correct me if I'm wrong. Here you were,
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you were early on in your career, and you were in a group and
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I think it was of women, and one woman in particular was sharing her
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experience with you, and you kind of jumped in there. I think like
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maybe a lot of new clinicians think they're doing or hope they're doing, and
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I think you tried to you were trying to appease her or kind of mitigate.
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Talk a little bit about that, and talking about when I try to
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help people to they shouldn't feel what they were feeling, exactly exactly. We're
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not to blame, right, you should blame yourself. Yeah, And she
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says, well, you know, you keep saying these things to make yourself
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feel better, but it's obviously that you have no understanding how to actually make
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me feel better, and you try to cover up by telling me I shouldn't
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feel anyway, that I'm not to blame. And yeah, I give you
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an example very much as an example how cognition cannot get you there. And
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sorry, at the core of psychology, you know, even the people who
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now hate Freud, they still believe basic Freud is that if you can talk
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about it, everything will go away. And that is mixed say. On
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the one hand, it's important to know that being able to say what happens
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is important to only experience, and so much of trauma has to do with
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keeping secrets from yourself and people around you. So being able to tell the
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truth and finding words for you to know truth is terribly important in order to
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have ownership of your life. On the other hand, knowing where things come
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from and understanding why you feel so horrible does not make feeling horrible go away
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and sorry, But I think loves psychology additionally makes a mistake. By by
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understanding something, you change the problem. But understanding just helps you to understand
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why you're screwed up, which is not bad, right, you know?
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But they need to go okay? But how do I reorganize my survival brain
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to feel safe and not to feel helpless? And so why does really emerge
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more and more? No, when I started to write, I wrote this
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article the Body keeps a Score in Ninete for It, and all my basis
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had taught me my body keeps score, and I just I thought that,
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yeah, that that nails it. And so thy years after aren't going.
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About twenty years after I wrote my book called the Body Can Score, and
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every month I become more aware that the body keeps a score. And at
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first word the paper is in New or Biology paper and the body people were
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so curious that this Harvard guy was talking about the body, so they came
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to listen to me, and then after hearing me talk, they said,
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actually, you talk about the body, but I don't think, yeah,
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I clue about how to work with the body. Would you like to learn,
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good arrogant person? I initially said, why would I want to learn
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from the likes of you? And so very gradually they're very gentle with me.
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And then people like Pete Levine Alpesso and and Pat Ogden took me under
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their wings and taught me something about the body. And it sits in the
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body, it sits in your whole system. Your organism is rewired to feel
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thread everywhere. It's on a very primitive elemental survival part of your being.
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Was that What was that like for you? Kind of making that shift in
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learning about the body and being able to utilize that when you were working with
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your clients. Well, I think I'm still not as good as it as
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as like, my wife is a real body therapist and she gets to really
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touch people and people feel very visceral experiences. I'm still constrained by being a
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psychotherapist by natachi people. I think oftentimes she does better work than I do.
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And so so you're saying I used to be interviewing her. Uh.
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I can write as you can, but most people who are very good in
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terms of just getting a tune to the body, working with the body and
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read people's body in their hands aren't very also very good writers because there's a
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different intelligence of course, so the yack or jack and the touch or such.
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So if we go back to that scene in the book we're talking about
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that that group there, how did that unfold for you as a clinician?
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What where did you go? What did that? What's happened? That the
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group is actually interesting, and that is that you know, there's a group
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of instant survivors. And I really believe that if you come from secret,
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secrecy and shame, being able to share your story and your reality and your
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internal world with other people who resonate with you and say, yes, I
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know, but it's like I thought I was the only person in the world
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who felt that way. But it's good to meet other people like you was
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a very important thing. But I went this group for seventeen years, and
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after about ten years, I thought, this group is not moving and they
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continue to not have a life. And I saw that as by learned something
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about polygrapy, and they continue to be in a in a collapse state.
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At that time, I did not know how to translate it into action.
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And after seventy years, I said to the group, you know, guys,
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I need to stop this group because I'm stuck, and I think I'm
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stuck because I don't know about the body. And I wish one of you
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or all of you would have realized that there's that you're also stuck, and
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that you had started to talk about what else you could do to really move
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on with your life. But because you trust me so much, you haven't
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done that, and so I need to tell you I'm going to go and
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learn how to work with the body, because this is what's keeping us,
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keeping you from being able to move home. And so by opening it to
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that, I got into theater. And I think theater is a very powerful
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way of helping people to inhabit different bodies. So one problem I love to
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talk about as a program involved it in rest of mass called Shakespeare in the
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Courts, that if you're a juvenile link within Burshire Country, you may get
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condemned after steating your car and breaking into a home to become a Shakespearean actor
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and the experience, and here you have these collapsed, fright and angry kids
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who've never spoken very many words besides shit and fuck. Who need to utter
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a whole Shakespearean sentence and say something like if he had not so resembled my
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father, I would have done the deed myself to really feel that sentence,
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And they have the director say, who is your father? Does your father
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love you? If your father know you? Do you know who your father
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is? Would you like to do the deed yourself as your dad? Have
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you ever thought about kiddingman antimity and body language? As I learned that from
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Kevin Coleman and the Shakespeare people help people to embodyings. And then the latest
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thing I do in that regard is I run psycho dramatic structures that I learned
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from Albert Presso, where people actually physically have experiences that they did not have
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at a particular time in their lives, and people situations regressed enough so that
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in your psycho dramatic structure, if you live up pieces of your past in
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three dimensional structures, and then you rearrange things and bob see, oh my
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god, somebody would have helped me protect be back then like this and actually
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is happening At this point they go like, oh, my whole life would
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have been completely different. Is that like psychodrama? Basically it's a particular form
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of psycho drama. Okay, okay, uh, you know, I was
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watching a video that you did. I think it was in Los Angeles.
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You were speaking to a group there, and the person who was introducing you
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was referring to another talk you did and which which was in front of a
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bunch of therapists apparently, and I think your opening remark was something to the
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effect of, basically, your licenses are I don't know what you said,
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but it was like I'll always say, we get the license to be practice,
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right right, So so what okay talk about that? What's behind that?
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Well, was behind it is that you know what, it will very
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big difference in being in academic and being in the trenches. And since I've
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always had one foot in academia on foot and trenches, I am very aware
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that these are two different things. And so we do research, which I
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do. You deal with very narrow population, very narrow parameters, and you
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try to understand one small aspect of something. But you sit in the trenches.
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You see people who people who smoke dope every day and who got drunk
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class night and got into a car accident. All these people be excluded from
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academic studies. So the academicians make up models of the world and they then
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get the post on the clinicians and the cans said, oh, well,
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these smart people have some famous institution made it. Let's do it. But
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there's people who were treating we're nothing like the people you see in reality.
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And so people learn things like CBT in in the graduate school, and in
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a CBT works very well. For actually it doesn't work very well because I've
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tried CBT on my wife many times. We pointed out the error of her
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ways and to have her understand her misperceptions and how she really should perceive the
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world more accurately. And whenever I do that, she says, oh,
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thank you so much, you know, and really very grateful for your pointing
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out how my real got the same similar thing. They really really just eat
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it up when I correct her miss say of the world, like how low
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hes psychology sunk that people believe that confronting people with their irrational beliefs, is
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it makes any sense? Are these people who have ever been in a relationship
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with anybody? Like It's like it's so weird, you know, and so
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the things are being taught to people are like, you know, I see
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it all the time. We get students applying to our fellowship program and I
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say, so, what do you learn in your internship? And said,
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I learned CBT. How do you like it? And they say, oh,
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I love it. It's really great and it's just really love studying it.
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Said good, So can you give me some example of people who have
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worked with where CBT really worked very well? And they say, oh,
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you know, but these patients, they're awful patients. You know, you
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do one session with them and they don't come back. So you know,
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I'm just looking for better patients to give my CBT two. I think the
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world is very much like that, nonious about how it should be people should
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be, and you have people working detentious who see the reality, but working
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the tentsions such a low prestige job that people rarely ask people who really work,
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who really disturb people. Can you tell me how to threat people like
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that? People go to somebody who is a fancy department somewhere who never see
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suspicious themselves or extractise. So it is this gigantic disconnect the research and practice.
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That's what I've started to do with my career, with my censor is
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to always marry the research to the extra punical practice, right right, What
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is it that you feel, I mean with that that you just said as
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kind of a backdrop here, what is it that clinicians in general, new
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newer clinicians who are are missing that that marrying of course, but what does
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that mean? What does that look like as far as you're concerned. You
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know, I don't think there's anything missing with the clinicians. I find them
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hardworking, dedicated, and slightly too trusting of authority. And I know when
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you go to school, I did it myself, and you have these teachers
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who you admire, who you want to be like, and so you try
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to emulate it, and then you're out of school for ten years and it
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isn't working. And for the while you blame yourself for oh, it is
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working because I'm not good enough. I didn't listen care for you, I
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didn't study hard enough. And then if you're continue to really observe, you
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say, actually, it isn't working, not because I'm I'm doing something well,
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but because the method doesn't work. And that's what I was very fortunately
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in my own training, I write about it in the book, is that
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in the first year of our training, this is the most prestigious Harvard program
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at the time. Our teacher said, you're not. I don't want you
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to beat any books in your first year. You have only one teacher and
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that's your patience. Now, what you spend numerous numerous arts were very very
17:07
disturbed people, and just try to figure out what's going on with them,
17:11
and don't read any books. But because books, if you read books,
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it will get in the way of your accurity observeding what's going on. I
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thought, it's just the best damn training I could have ever had had.
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And the patience from the textbook is that are you seeing that now? In
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education? Is that being taught now or oh no, oh no, I
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think lesser. So I think it's more and more protocol driven and prescription driven.
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It's prescriptive rather than learning from. Yeah, and so the people who
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learn from are often times to people who would have a lot of formal education,
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like actors and yoga teachers and regular teachers who just are not contemnated by
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these protocols of how you should things now. Kind of follow up question here
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is how does that type of learning then, right, if you're talking about
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rather than learning from books initially, and you know, taking everything in from
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your your clients, your patients, what is that demand then of you of
18:33
the clinician tolerance of feeling lost at sea and terrify, which this work is
18:45
anyway, tolerance of getting in touch with your own mirror neural system and how
18:55
your own feelings get to inflected in somebody else. And really so, but
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we had in training was very good supervision, and so what did it What
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was it like for you when this person was screaming at you? What did
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you do? Oh? I scream back. Okay, that's the normal response
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to scream back. What can we do next time is to just sit back
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and observe how somebody is screaming at you, and to really notice how you
19:22
feel versus how the other person feels, so that your mirror neuron system does
19:26
get hijacked by that other person and you're trying to actually affect their mirror neural
19:32
system by you're becoming very quiet and still and peaceful. See if you can
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exercise your energetic power to help that very nbaged person to become themselves down rather
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than mirroring it was learning how to really be in relation and to use the
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energy. But you beings to get people into a path of stillness and quired
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is very important. We don't enjoy that in school? Was that What was
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that process like for you? Kind of when you realize, you know what,
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I'm not gonna be able to read a book or I shouldn't read a
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book but instead sit there with these people, with these patients. What was
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that like for you? I'm a generic disobedient person, so I kept reading
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book, reading books anyway. Of course we all did the under the covers
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of that. But but no, I think the process of of fully embrasing
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your ignorance is fantastic actually, and I liked it, and I've always liked
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it. I mean, this field of to make stress didn't exist when I
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first started it. And people who dissociate and people who have different personalities and
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you're going like, what the hell is going on here? And so really
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continuously observed variations. It's terribly important and part of the virtue of having our
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centers. Mean, we show our videotapes to each other, and we know
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that our diagnostic manual is just useless project long sense. Basically, it doesn't
21:11
have any scientific validity whatsoever, but they get very carefully, Oh, this
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person cannot hear, or this person cannot engage, or this person cannot really
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make using information, or this person keeps getting stuck in the same thing over
21:26
again. So we're very much into observing subtle issues which are very much learned
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from the body workers also, and I'm also very involved in neuroscience and I
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know and I'm very involved in neuroscience of perception and how people take in new
21:41
information. I'm one of the striking things about working with tron test people is
21:45
that they have a heart time learning because the mechanism of the brain to take
21:52
in new information gets quite impaired. So a very big part of my work
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is how do you change the brain going to learn new things. Actually,
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one of the things that has really struck me about my experience here doing this
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podcast is one of the questions I ask, is, uh, you know
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to share an early error and early mistake and what the guests has learned from
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that. And inevitably, doctor Bandercalket, it has come down to my guests
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talking about not so much about an intervention that they messed up or you know
22:29
that they misread something on page thirty two of this book. But other than
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not trusting themselves or of them interfering with the relationship or or not being courageous
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enough to take that step, talk a little bit about talk a little bit
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more about that. Why is Why is that challenging or do you think it
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is challenging? Actually, I would say to the greatest mistakes are with are
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with not tolerating your ignorance for me, and so when people do something you
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don't understand, you try iron should many of my colleges try to make them
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do things to make us feel less stupid or ineffectual. And of course,
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the more experience you get, you actually get to know a few things so
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you can allow yourself after being more injuriance. Don't My great tea shirt I
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talk about in book was always ignorance, but he models to us because he
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was confident. Of course you've been you're a young person. You're both ignorant
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and at loss, and then you tend to sort of push people into doing
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things. But I think the mistakes that I make and when people work with
23:57
is to try to control people behavior so we don't feel so helpless. And
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that's a big It's not a big issue for you anymore. It's you said,
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it's not a big issue anymore. Okay, it's not a big issue
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for you as much. No, No, I think I can. I
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can really like my old teacher, I really scratched my hand and say,
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you said that. He said that. I've always admired Colombo, don't and
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my actually like, I think good therapist is like Alumbo. Yeah, if
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you had and and and and probably have you probably had this at the trauma
24:48
center there. But if you had a small group of people sitting in front
24:52
of you, students who were wanted to, you know, get into this
24:55
field, what what would you advise them? What would you say to them?
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Let's say, bringing your videotapes, bringing your videotapes. Yeah, let's
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work videotapes. Let's look at the process. What happens here? What do
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you think would have happened if you have kept your mouth shut at this points?
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What would somebody else have said that this particular point which you have moved
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your body forwards, which you have changed your tone of voice, which you
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have said back and breathe a little bit different. So I think God is
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reading the details and yanking navigation to details I think you need to have the
25:33
multimedia exposure because you need to see the process. You need to hear people's
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change your voice, people's changing posture. You see harder body follows the words.
25:49
Basically, it's very much about following the body in terms of you know,
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you talked about tolerating your own ignorance. Why is that challenging for a
26:03
lot of us? Well, because we think ignorance is the same as stupidity,
26:08
but it isn't. Ignorance is the opening to learning. And you know,
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I think I'm not blaming our school system necessarily because it's pretty universal,
26:22
but yeah, actually, but some school systems are much better and helping people
26:29
to use their ignorance to create new things. Of course, again, in
26:34
education is also just like in psychology, more and more prescriptive, more and
26:40
more tests. Have you learned that than very little emphasis of Wow, aren't
26:45
you surprised about or aren't you interested? That you didn't understand this? I
26:53
still don't know what its sky is blue. I know it's an answer for
26:57
it somewhere, but I come give it to you. Why do you think?
27:04
Not not so much why you got into this field, but what makes
27:10
you as effective as you are doing this work well, you know, always
27:18
a question better you're effective? Uh, But I think that the root of
27:32
effectiveness is to your own self be true huh, to really to really trust
27:41
as you see, and to to love to follow your follow your news.
27:47
It's actually that if you like to work with the body, go work with
27:51
the body. If you hate to work with the body, don't do it.
27:55
Do something else. But so I guess something our culture isn't very good
28:00
at. But you need to really follow these things that I would rewarding to
28:06
you that you really can wake up in the warning, be entergiastic about you
28:14
look forward to continue to work with people. So if you are puzzles and
28:19
amaze how some people talk rag time and what happens in their brain that reg
28:25
time comes out, go and become a schisophrenia person can go like wow,
28:32
where this come from? If you hate people being illogical, don't work with
28:37
schizophrenics. So so, really, I what I'm hearing you say is kind
28:45
of really honoring your gut in a sense where that's taking you. Whatever you
28:49
do needs to match with a core in our curiosity and sense of satisfaction.
28:56
Yeah, so you're saying that you have a great You've always had a great
29:02
satisfaction about individuals who've been Yeah, I've always really enjoyed what they do it.
29:08
Yeah, and that curiosity has really come come been in your favor,
29:17
worked in your favor. Yeah. And also I get punished on a regular
29:22
basis, also punished by your by your patients. No, no, no,
29:32
So when it's started the trauma sense of example, a person on my
29:37
Flora who's now a famous characters said best, you are obsessed with this trauma
29:41
stuff where you croak. Nobody will ever talk about trauma anymore. And I
29:45
said, I hope so. And then my clinic gets closed at that hospital
29:55
because we are the boutique. We are this a satirical little group of people
30:00
who talk about something as strange as childhood trauma. And then our clinic gets
30:07
closed somewhere else because we're supposed to do drug trials and because it makes money
30:14
for the department. I mean, they'll bring enough money. So you know,
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there's a reason why people are not through themselves, because if you treat
30:22
yourself, you may be all by yourself at some point. Yeah, you
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wrote the book The Body Keeps Score. And again we're gonna have all this
30:34
linked up at the show That's page at the Trauma podcast dot com. What
30:38
was your main impetus for writing this book? Would you say? Many empathize
30:48
impetusisty, one of which is that I interviewed. I interviewed residency applicants every
30:55
year and for many, many years, and I always ask people, what
31:02
book have you read that inspired you to want to become a psychiatrist or a
31:06
psychologist? And for the last ten years, twelve years, none of them
31:11
has given me the name of a book that they said that book just got
31:17
me to do it. I thought that was just astounding, because when I
31:21
grew up, I read all the time. And if you would tell me
31:25
what books inspired you as an eighteen nineteen twenty year old to do what you
31:29
did, I can give you the names. I never promised your Rose Garden
31:32
Men's Search for Meaning, Eric from Escaped Freedom. It was were the books,
31:38
Paul Macus, These were the books like that. Yeah, but I
31:45
want to do this for a living. I want to devote my life to
31:48
it. So most of I wanted to write a book that if a young
31:52
person would read it like because psychiactersts become such as desiccated, soulless professional.
32:01
I don't see how anybody ever wants to be psychiatrists and we're giving pills to
32:06
people. It's pretty said profession. And I wanted young people to read this
32:10
book and go like, this is the most interesting in the world. I
32:14
Am going to devote my life exploring how the mind works and how we can
32:19
help people to to need good lives. There's a question book. As it
32:23
tested out, I think it has mainly been the main impact has been of
32:29
a lot of survivors reading the book and say that is me. Finally somebody
32:35
gets and gives me some pathway out of misery that I'm experiencing. That's pretty
32:43
powerful to have done that, Pretty lucky to have done it, you know,
32:47
if you're very fortunate. Actually, like when you write a book,
32:51
you never know how soon it will be on the remainder table, you know.
32:57
And I've been just delighted and blessed by how many people are reading it,
33:01
how many people like it. So from from my perspective, you seem
33:07
to straddle different, uh kind of segments, you know, academia, practicing
33:15
and so forth, and with a with a large kind of overlay of irreverence
33:24
that yeah, but also reverence also reverenced but but but yeah, but it
33:30
seems to really inspire I think a lot of people and it definitely inspires me.
33:38
How how do you do that? How does that work for you?
33:43
You know, characters Destiny. You know, I'm a multi lingual person.
33:49
I'm a Dutch person, and I come from a very small country, usually
33:52
where if you travel fifty miles to the south, you speak a different language,
33:55
and fifty miles to you should speak a different language. And so I
34:00
grew up in the multicultural culture, and in intellectually, I've always been multicultural.
34:07
I've always always loved poetry and art, and I've always loved science,
34:14
and so that's my character. You know, I studied classical Greek, but
34:22
it was not a great classical Greek student because I've spent it too much time
34:25
also studying in physics, and so today also I'm trying to be a serious
34:30
new a scientist. But I love clinical work and I love psycho drama and
34:35
all that sort of stuff. And if I would leave out any of these
34:38
pieces, I would feel that I was not true to myself. That's me.
34:44
I cannot expect other people to also have a real passion for science and
34:47
a passion for it for the intricacies of therapy, which is not science.
34:54
So let's as we as we kind of close out here. I want to
34:59
put that question to you in terms of a book that has inspired you recently
35:05
that you would like to kind of suggest to our listeners, whether trauma related
35:08
or not. What would you what would you say trauma related books. My
35:13
latest book that's exciting for me is a book called Silk Growths. It's the
35:17
history of the world in terms of how people have always traded goods and stuff
35:23
with each other, and all the wars and misery and religions at tensions occurred
35:29
in the context of it. I just I adored it, but it's just
35:32
amazing and I learned. I've read history all my life, and almost on
35:37
every page I founded other piece of information that I didn't know before. But
35:43
that's not that all about trauma, because people do to gain dominance. Of
35:49
course, cousin law of trauma about to have nothing to do with clinical work.
35:52
I don't read many clinical books. I read a lot of scientific literature.
35:58
Be a review of see if you want me to talk about it.
36:02
The latest peer I viewed articles and a view that I'm excited about it.
36:07
I'd love to tell you about it because real learning stuff about brain circuits and
36:13
how brain circuits have to do with your insula and the degree to which you're
36:17
insulin naming your connection with your brain and your body vegis to something as being
36:22
relevant and this has something to do with the syria bellum and heart of syria
36:27
bellum organizes you to become focused on particular subjects. If the work of my
36:34
colleagues, this is Ruth Lannius is lab, there's anything to go by.
36:39
There's going to be the main theme of my annual conferences here at some point
36:46
if people actually get to integrate and take in this very complex information that treatment
36:53
has more to do with the action that you take and the actions you're thought
37:00
then actually how you talk about it. And so I've always been a fan
37:05
of martial arts and indeed that things like martial arts and making music can really
37:12
organize the way that your brain engages with the world. And I think to
37:16
my mind, that's where me as a profession needs to go to is to
37:21
find ways in which we can help people to pay attention differently, to focus
37:27
differently, to help people to figure out and not figure out, but to
37:34
organize what is elevent about irrelevant? And all these systems in our patients are
37:39
very disturbed, all kind of evlevant information start finding the show. It's hard
37:45
for them to focus, it's hard for them to switch sets when something isn't
37:51
working into something else. And these are all mind brain capacities that have almost
37:58
nothing to do with understanding. It has something to do with really organizes the
38:02
way that the human organize is engaged with things. And that's the frontier of
38:07
our fields as far as I'm concerned. So with the understanding that this is
38:13
one of the newer articles, do you want to share the name of that
38:15
or ken would you be willing to? Okay? Okay, But but the
38:22
issues here are is the understanding about the mind and brain as networks, and
38:30
it has to do with the salience network of the brain. What does your
38:35
might automatically find relevant in terms of paying attention to the executive the executive function
38:42
of your brain of how do you organize yourself to accomplish a task and the
38:47
defaultative brain? What are you like where you're not engaged with anything at all
38:52
and you adjust with yourself and it's these networks that need to be organized,
38:58
and I think our job Cochindisitions is to figure out how to best organizing the
39:02
organize as networks. And so part of what I'm doing is I'm doing your
39:08
feedback research applied to your science to see how by playing computer games with your
39:14
own brain waves, you can reorganize those brain waves so that your mind engages
39:21
with the world in a different way, no exciting clinically. In addition to
39:30
the video games, what else have you? Actually it's feedback in the same
39:35
way that when I say something you like you have little clinkers like your eyes,
39:38
I mean you're board, you see little troping your face. You give
39:42
me feedback all the time, and you change my brain as we're talking to
39:46
each other now. So you can amplify those feedback systems by this computer games
39:53
picking up what happens in your brain and then helps you to make more of
39:57
one thing and less of another thing. Basic. Awesome, Awesome, Well,
40:04
I want to thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
40:07
If people want to reach out to you and find out where you're going
40:10
to be next, what talk you're gonna be giving to you next, What's
40:13
the best way for people to uh website, the best little undercock dot nets.
40:17
Okaya, all right, we'll have that linked up at the show notes
40:21
page. Doctor Vandercock, I want to thank you so much for taking the
40:23
time to do this. We'll be in touch. Okay, be good bye bye on