Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #513 Keeping Control and Letting It Go

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#513 Keeping Control and Letting It Go · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, when I think about how much control should we maintain,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: it's a process of consistently letting go as the kids
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: get older, but letting go with the conversations.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Families dot com dot U and Channel Line's parental guidance,
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: parenting expert and co host. I'm here with Kylie, my
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  Speaker 2: mom to our six children, My momm thank you. I
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: don't know how that at.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Somebody trained to need mothering today in.
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  Speaker 2: The psychodynamic theories would say that was somewhat Freudian. Freudian slip.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know where they came from. My wife and
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: the mom to our six children, and my or what
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  Speaker 2: would you say, my speech picker upper a person who
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  Speaker 2: notices all the stuff that I say that doesn't come
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  Speaker 2: out quite right. You know, I'm tempted to start again,
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: but we're already in so let's just keep going today
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  Speaker 2: as we do every Tuesday, a conversation about helping families
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: who are having a hard time. If you are a
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Happy Famili's Premium member, you get to ask questions consistently
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: through the membership. We do a monthly Q and A,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: but we also answer those questions on Facebook and our
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families Premium members group and on the podcast right now.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: That's what we're doing with this podcast this morning, and
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  Speaker 2: this one's about social media. We talked about TikTok last
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  Speaker 2: week and didn't that go off on social media? It's
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  Speaker 2: been going benocas. We've had emails going everywhere, podcasts at
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot au, and one of our
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  Speaker 2: listeners has said, hey, Justin and Kylie, how much control
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: should we maintain when it comes to kids and screens,
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  Speaker 2: time limits, downtime at night, asking for permission to download
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  Speaker 2: and delete apps, no Safari, checking messages, so much pressure
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: to get it right. These are the questions that are
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  Speaker 2: coming up among my friends and I as our children
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  Speaker 2: are heading into the teenage years and wanting more independence
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  Speaker 2: with phones and the internet. It so many questions and
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: fears we're doing it wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And she would be just one of millions of parents
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  Speaker 1: who feel exactly the same way.
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  Speaker 2: Every single day because social media. I mean, we talked
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  Speaker 2: about it last week I don't want to downplay the severity.
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  Speaker 2: This TikTok is so dangerous, more so than many of
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  Speaker 2: the others. But all of these platforms have the same
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  Speaker 2: kinds of content. They have the same sorts of opportunities
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  Speaker 2: for our kids to be exposed to horrendousness. Whether it's
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  Speaker 2: explicit material, or course material, or vulgar material or harmful material,
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  Speaker 2: it's there, and parents are right to be worried about it.
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  Speaker 2: Like every now and again, some people will say, oh,
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  Speaker 2: justin you're a bit soft on the whole social media
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  Speaker 2: thing because you just say you've got to teach the kids. Well,
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  Speaker 2: that's because they're going to see it regardless. I wish
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  Speaker 2: that we could actually somehow protect our kids. Yeah, totally,
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  Speaker 2: and we will talk about that in this podcast. But
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  Speaker 2: the reality is parents are worried about it because whether
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: you do it or not, they're still going to be
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: exposed to it, They're still going to find it, they're
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  Speaker 2: still going to be sneaky. And we can talk about
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: that as well. But when you hear that question, Kylie,
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  Speaker 2: what's the first thing that goes through your mind?
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  Speaker 1: I think about that proverb? Is it a proverb?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, not until you tell me maybe it's
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  Speaker 2: a quote. Okay, see, there we go. Now we can
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  Speaker 2: correct each other. This is this is exactly what we're
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: This is why the podcast here, folks, Nickyleie and I
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  Speaker 2: idea about Grammary the way we speak.
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  Speaker 1: But give a man of fish and he has food
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  Speaker 1: for a day.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Teach a man to fish and he has food for life.
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  Speaker 2: I'd call that a proverb. Yeah, I think it is.
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  Speaker 2: We'll go with it.
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  Speaker 1: But anyway, when I think about this idea of control, yes,
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  Speaker 1: as parents us wanting to control our children, we're essentially
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  Speaker 1: giving our children fish. We're just doing the thinking for
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  Speaker 1: them in order to keep them safe.
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  Speaker 2: And it's understandable, like we want to keep our kids
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  Speaker 2: safe and we have an obligation to do so. And
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  Speaker 2: it's easy, Yeah, it is.
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  Speaker 1: It's so easy to make the decisions as adults, with
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  Speaker 1: clarity of thought and recognizing and seeing all of the
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  Speaker 1: dangers spread out before us, to make decisions and want
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  Speaker 1: our children to just follow suit. But when our children
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  Speaker 1: find themselves in positions where we are not next to them,
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  Speaker 1: when we are not looking over their shoulders, what skill
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  Speaker 1: sets do they have to navigate the challenges that they
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  Speaker 1: see on the bus, in the school playground, at their
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  Speaker 1: friends at a sleepover. They don't know how to navigate
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  Speaker 1: this stuff, and so we actually in some ways disadvantage
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  Speaker 1: them and being able to navigate this more safely. Are
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  Speaker 1: they going to be exposed almost one hundred percent. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: they are going to be exposed to things that you
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  Speaker 1: wish that they never knew, had never seen. Just as
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  Speaker 1: a parent, it's a reality. And as much as we
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: would love to bubble our kids, and we have been
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: through this so many times, we just wish we could.
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  Speaker 2: We're going through it time now, fifth time.
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  Speaker 1: One to go pull them out of everything and just
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  Speaker 1: keep them locked in the bedroom, don't talk to anyone,
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  Speaker 1: don't listen to anything, do.
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  Speaker 2: I look at anything, stay away from screen.
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  Speaker 1: It's just it's not real life. So the opportunity we
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  Speaker 1: have as parents to not control, but to teach is
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  Speaker 1: time consuming, heartbreaking and hard work. And like you said,
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  Speaker 1: we're now going through this for the fifth time. But
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  Speaker 1: it makes such a difference in the relationship that we
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  Speaker 1: have with our children, in our capacity to hear their concerns,
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  Speaker 1: their worries, their fears, and how it makes them look
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  Speaker 1: if they are the only child who you know, doesn't
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  Speaker 1: have social media as.
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  Speaker 2: Our grade seven daughter keeps on reminding.
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  Speaker 1: Us and what they see is appropriate use, and we
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  Speaker 1: just get to have this dialogue with them that is
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  Speaker 1: so much more powerful because when we're not there, that
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: dialogue can continue.
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  Speaker 2: There's that metaphor, it's not a proverb, it's a metaphor
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  Speaker 2: that I use all the time, and that is that
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  Speaker 2: you can fence the pool, but you can't fence the ocean.
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  Speaker 2: So from a social media and screens perspective, what that
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  Speaker 2: essentially means is, Yeah, you can have all the rules
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  Speaker 2: in the world, you can have all the protective layers,
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  Speaker 2: you can have all the security and all the filters
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  Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff that you want on
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  Speaker 2: your devices at home. Your screen's at home, But your
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  Speaker 2: kids don't stay at home. They don't go swimming just
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  Speaker 2: in your swimming pool. They also go swimming in the
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  Speaker 2: lakes and the rivers and the oceans and their friends
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  Speaker 2: pools and that kind of thing. And not everywhere that
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  Speaker 2: they go, not everybody of water that they go near,
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  Speaker 2: is going to have those same fences around it. And
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  Speaker 2: therefore we've got to teach our kids to swim.
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  Speaker 1: We can't throw our hands up in the air and
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  Speaker 1: just go this is all too hard and not how
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  Speaker 1: parameter is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, But having complete control over
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  Speaker 1: what our children do is not going to help them either.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So after the break, I'm going to walk through
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  Speaker 2: a model that I think is going to be helpful
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  Speaker 2: for any parent who's going through these kinds of ideas
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  Speaker 2: and struggling with these kinds of challenges. The model comes
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: from a researcher at Brigham Young University. He name is
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  Speaker 2: Laura Walker, and she's one of my favorite research has
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  Speaker 2: done some really really smart work around adolescens and also
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: around the concept of how we can develop discipline frameworks.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: That's coming up next on the Happy Families podcast. Get Curious,
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Not Furious? Be Were your feeder mistakes lead to mastery?
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: High emotions, low intelligence? Have you ever heard these or
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: any of the other principles I share and thought I
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: need to stick that on my wall? Well now you can.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: The Happy Family team has pulled out the best justinisms
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: for a five mini posters perfect fear home or even
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: the classroom, and easy to grab at happy families dot
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: com dot a you.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. The podcast for the time
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  Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers now. And I'm interested
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: in this framework.
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  Speaker 2: So I've talked about this before, probably on the podcast,
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  Speaker 2: but I don't do it very frequently. And it's really
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  Speaker 2: really useful. So if you've got a child who you know,
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  Speaker 2: social media is coming, screen time is coming, and that's
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  Speaker 2: every child. By the way, this framework will be useful.
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  Speaker 2: The way that it begins is right at the very
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  Speaker 2: beginning of life, where we co coon our kids. And
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  Speaker 2: now some people say, oh, we don't want to cocoon
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  Speaker 2: our kids, we don't want bubble wrap them. Well that's
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  Speaker 2: not actually true. Research shows that if we don't bubble
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  Speaker 2: wrap them and cocoon them, especially early in life, they
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  Speaker 2: start to feel like the world is scary, volatile, unpredictable,
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  Speaker 2: random and can hurt them. And so when our kids
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  Speaker 2: are little, they actually need to be literally bubble wrapped,
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  Speaker 2: spoon fed, cotton wooed, and looked after because they're helpless.
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  Speaker 2: And that's for the first i'd say at least the
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  Speaker 2: first half a dozen years of life. We're supposed to
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  Speaker 2: be there as a protection for them. We give them
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  Speaker 2: a little bit by little bit more and more scope
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  Speaker 2: to explore and get curious and discover their limits and
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  Speaker 2: take risks. We do that as they're growing, but ultimately
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  Speaker 2: our job as parents, particularly when it comes to the
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  Speaker 2: stuff like screens and social media, is to absolutely cocon them,
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  Speaker 2: bubble rub them, protect them from it. Don't let them
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  Speaker 2: near the media. It's not good for them.
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  Speaker 1: So when I hear you talk about cocooning, I go
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  Speaker 1: straight back to being that young mu with this beautiful
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  Speaker 1: baby freshly born and wrapping them in swaddling. Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you know, wraps, and they're all nice and cocooned, and
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  Speaker 1: at that point there's.
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  Speaker 2: No fight, right, yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 1: They're really happy to be cuddled and snuggled and swaddled.
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  Speaker 1: But we're now talking about preteens and teenagers who do
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  Speaker 1: not want to be moody coddled. Do They do not
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  Speaker 1: want to be bubble wrapped. They do not want to
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  Speaker 1: be saved because they don't think there's anything to be
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  Speaker 1: saved from.
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  Speaker 2: Well, they actually know that this stuff's dangerous, they just
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  Speaker 2: don't think that they're going to be dangerous for them. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: so we'll get to that in a sec. We're jumping
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  Speaker 2: ahead too far in the polize No that's okay. So
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  Speaker 2: after cocooning comes this thing called reasoned cocooning, and reason
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  Speaker 2: cocooning is where you basically explain to your child why
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  Speaker 2: you're bubble wrapping them. And this is what happens from
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  Speaker 2: about the age of three, two or three through to
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  Speaker 2: somewhere around the age of seven, eight nine.
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  Speaker 1: Somewhere in there, some mommy doesn't want you playing with
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  Speaker 1: the pots on the stove.
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  Speaker 2: Because it's hot and you'll burn yourself. Or by the
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  Speaker 2: time they get to eight or nine, I know you
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  Speaker 2: want to have Instagram like all your friends. I know
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  Speaker 2: you want to be on TikTok like all your friends,
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  Speaker 2: but there are some reasons that we don't allow you
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  Speaker 2: to do that. And what you can do with your
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  Speaker 2: kids up until about I'm going to say the age
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  Speaker 2: of ten or eleven, is you can actually literally cocoon them.
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  Speaker 2: You can protect them, you can keep them away from
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  Speaker 2: stuff full stop. End of story. You can use your
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  Speaker 2: power as a parent to do that. Now, I don't
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  Speaker 2: think that that's healthy by the time we get to nine,
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  Speaker 2: ten and eleven, And that's why the cocooning and the
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  Speaker 2: reason cocooning, that sort of overlaps through that period from
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  Speaker 2: zero to three or zero to four, and then from
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  Speaker 2: about two or three through to eight or nine. But
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  Speaker 2: what happens from around about the age of five or six,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: and you'll know again there's overlaps through each of these stages.
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  Speaker 2: As we progress through life, from about the age of
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  Speaker 2: five or six through to about the age of fifteen
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  Speaker 2: or sixteen, we step into this area that we call
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  Speaker 2: pre arming. So pre arming is where we say to
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  Speaker 2: our child, here's what's coming up in your life. So
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  Speaker 2: when there I don't know, when they're going into grade
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  Speaker 2: two or grade three, you might talk to them about
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: course language, vulgar language, explicit language, and how kids at
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  Speaker 2: school are going to start using swear word And if
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: you're in a home like ours, well, we don't use
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  Speaker 2: those sorts of words in our home. And so you
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  Speaker 2: say to the kiddo, have you heard kids using swear
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  Speaker 2: words already? Okay? And how does it make you feel?
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  Speaker 2: Why do you think they're saying them? What do you
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  Speaker 2: do when you hear those words? Would you think that
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  Speaker 2: it's ever appropriate to use those words yourself? And so
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  Speaker 2: you're pre arming them by talking them through hypothetical scenarios
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  Speaker 2: before they get there. As they're going into grade five,
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  Speaker 2: you probably have an initial conversation about something like pornography,
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  Speaker 2: because we know that the average age you've exposure to
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  Speaker 2: pornography is about age eleven, and so you want to
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  Speaker 2: have that conversation just ahead of time. Is they're going
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  Speaker 2: into grade six, you start to have conversations about social media,
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  Speaker 2: Grade seven, you start to have conversations about alcohol. Grade eight,
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  Speaker 2: start to have conversations about other drugs. Grade nine you
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  Speaker 2: start to have conversations about intimacy and those kinds of things.
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  Speaker 2: So the conversations are always pre arming. We're getting in
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: ahead of the curve. We're giving them hypothetical situations. We're saying, hey,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: this is coming up in your life. What do you
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: think you want to do about it? What do you
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: think is the right thing to do about it? How
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  Speaker 2: can I support you with it? So we've gone from
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: kacooning when they're little to reason cocooning as they're getting older.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Now we're pre arming them, and that pre arming obviously
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  Speaker 2: overlaps a bit with cocooning. But as our kids move
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  Speaker 2: into their early adolescence from about the age of twelve,
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  Speaker 2: we start to step into this thing called reasoned deference. Now,
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  Speaker 2: when you defer to somebody, say well, what do you
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  Speaker 2: think that's what deference is. I'm deferring to you, Kylie.
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  Speaker 2: Let me defer to you. What do you think we
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: should do here? Kids are not ready for deference, but
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  Speaker 2: they are ready for reasoned defference somewhere between I'm going
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: to say eight nine, ten and fifteen sixteen seventeen, depending
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: on what the context is. You're not going to say, well,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: what do you think when they say can I go
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  Speaker 2: to the party? And they're twelve? Right, but you are
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: going to maybe reason with them. Maybe you'll still bubble
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: wrap them at that point. Who knows, you might cocuon them.
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  Speaker 2: But these processes are the important part, and as parents,
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  Speaker 2: we've got to be discerning as to where we're up
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: to with the developmental trajectory of our kids. So your cocoon,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: then your reason cocun, then your pre arm, and then
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you get into reasoned deference. Reason deference basically is, you
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: know what, I want to leave this one up to you.
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  Speaker 2: But before I leave this up to you, let's have
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  Speaker 2: a conversation about it. Let's reason together, Let's work this out.
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  Speaker 2: Let's come up with a solution that makes sense to
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  Speaker 2: both of us. Ultimately, you're making the decision, but you're
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  Speaker 2: doing it with a whole lot of my support, my scaffolding,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: my involvement. And then the last part of the model,
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  Speaker 2: the last part of the process is difference, and that's
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: usually somewhere around the age of seventeen, eighteen nineteen. Sometimes
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: it might be a bit earlier, sometimes it might be
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: a bit later. It depends on what you're deferring. But difference,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: essentially is when the kids come to you and say
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: can I can I and you say, well, guess what,
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  Speaker 2: You're a big kid now, I'm going to leave this
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: one up to you. I trust you, I believe in you.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I want you to make safe, healthy decisions. Fill your boots.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: You work it out, and that process requires a lot
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: of us as parents. It's a tricky process. But guess what,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: being a parent requires a lot of us as parents.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: It's hard work. So when I think about this particular
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: listener question, how much control should we maintain, it's a
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: process of consistently letting go as the kids get older,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: but letting go with the conversations, with the cocooning or
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: the reason cocooning with the pre arming or the reason
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: difference or eventually the defference. What do we do about
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: time limits? Well, again it's about that process. Early on,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: you're not going to give them open slab, but by
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: the time they're eighteen you're probably not going to step
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: in at all because it's their life. What do we
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: do about downtime at night? Well, when they're little, you
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: absolutely set those limits. You get into the app and
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: you set up all of the downtime and screen time
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  Speaker 2: limits because they're little, because they're only twelve or thirteen
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: or fourteen. And as they get older you start to shift.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Asking for permission to download and delete apps is the
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: next one that was on that list. Well, guess what
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: you encourage. In fact, you demand that they ask permission
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: in the early days, but as they get older, you
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: start to work through a reasoned deference process with them
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: checking messages, no safari all of those ideas, they all
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: tie in with this general process. Bubble wrap the kids
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: like crazy cocooning, and then explain why you're doing it.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Then pre arm them there, start to defer to them,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: but with a lot of reasoning, support and scaffolding until Finally,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: they're odd enough that you can say, hey, guess what
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I've done the best I can to train you. You're
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: a big kid, now, this one's on you. And obviously,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: with screens it's different to with parties, which is different
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: to driving, which is different to boyfriends and girlfriends, which
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: is different to school work, which is different. Do you
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like every context is different, but
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: the same framework, the same developmental trajectory applies. You're looking
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: at me with a funny look like, are you ever
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: going to stop talking?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: No, not at all. I'm thinking about the conversation we
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: had last week where I just shared that one line
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: from your book Nine Ways to a Resilient Child in
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: the fact that autonomy supportive parenting is hard. Yeah, it's
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: hard work, and we feel like we've had this conversation,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: why do we have to have it again? But we're
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: going to have to have the same conversations with our
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: children as we work through this process over and over
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: and over again. But it's that idea that you've been
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: sharing recently about practice. This is helping our children to
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: practice new skills so that they can utilize those skills
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: in profoundly more appropriate ways. As you defer more and
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: more authority to them in their choices.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: So let's wrap up with one last idea. What do
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: you do when the kids get it wrong? What do
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you do when you defer to them or we go
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: through a reason difference process with them and they still
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: get it wrong. We need to highlight they will they're
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: going to get it wrong. Yeah, like we get stuff
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: wrong all the time, and so what happens when we
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: get stuff wrong? We say I've learned, I'll do better
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: next time. And that's what we do. We sit down
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: with kids and we reason with them. We empower them,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: We have conversations with them, We say what went wrong there,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: what did you learn from it? What we do next time?
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Do you think that you're ready for us to give
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: you that responsibility again? Because kids only learn responsibility by
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: being given responsibility. If you take the screens away, if
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: you take responsibility off them, guess what, They're never going
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: to learn how to do it. They're never going to
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: learn responsibility because you're not giving it to them. It's
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: about giving it to them in the right context. So
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: for the listener slash listeners, the many people who have
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: asked this question about how we're supposed to get this right.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I hope that this has been a useful podcast. I
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: feel like I've just shared some really important information that
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: can make a huge difference in the way we approach parenting.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rouland from
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer Andy. If
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: you'd like more IFO about making your family happier, we'd
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: love for you to join us at Happy families dot com.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Do you