Latest / The You Project / #2135 Psychology FM - Dr. Lillian Nejad

Transcript

#2135 Psychology FM - Dr. Lillian Nejad · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get a champions, it's Jumbo. It's doctor Lilly, and
0:03
Speaker 1: it's doctor Tiffany Cook over there at her clinic. She's
0:07
Speaker 1: operating on people. And now before we get underway, I
0:11
Speaker 1: got to tell you this, said this yesterday. Melissa will
0:14
Speaker 1: punch me in the face if I don't, so will
0:15
Speaker 1: doctor Denise. I'm running and when I say I not
0:20
Speaker 1: really Melissa, she's the actual engine and Dr Denise and
0:24
Speaker 1: I'm just the ring in. We are running a program
0:26
Speaker 1: called the Reset Program, which is a weekend in June
0:29
Speaker 1: June twelve, thirteen fourteen. Kick off Friday night at about seven,
0:35
Speaker 1: but you can get there whenever you want. Finish Sunday about.
0:41
Speaker 2: Four.
0:42
Speaker 1: So that's where the event is at the Mantra in
0:45
Speaker 1: Milula bar So Sunshine Coast. Get you up, butter Cup.
0:49
Speaker 1: You're welcome. You can thank me when you come. And
0:53
Speaker 1: the beach is about fifty meters from where we are gathering,
0:57
Speaker 1: so if you borded me, you can go swim in
0:58
Speaker 1: the ocean and come back. If you don't know Denise,
1:02
Speaker 1: Doctor Denise faness Is she's an next sized physiologist. She's
1:06
Speaker 1: a nutritionist, she's a geneticist, she's a researcher. She's written
1:11
Speaker 1: heaps of stuff, she presents all over the world and
1:13
Speaker 1: is I think super highly regarded in the genetic slash
1:18
Speaker 1: epigenetic space. Well, I don't think. I know. She's presented
1:21
Speaker 1: at the U Project conference. She blew everyone away. She's
1:24
Speaker 1: a great teacher, great present, a lot of knowledge, and
1:28
Speaker 1: quite atypically for an absolute real deal scientist, hilarious and
1:32
Speaker 1: cheeky and funny, unlike doctor Lillian anyway. So no, I'm
1:39
Speaker 1: just kidding, see what I did there in a humor. No,
1:43
Speaker 1: she's also a cac as well, So Denise and I.
1:46
Speaker 1: If you want to find out about that, go to
1:49
Speaker 1: the website Craig Huper dot net. I should know. It's
1:53
Speaker 1: not net, isn't it.
1:55
Speaker 2: Yes, it's not net.
1:56
Speaker 1: Thanks, I don't know. I don't go there. I've heard
1:59
Speaker 1: about it. Craig Carba dot net and giddy Up butter Cups.
2:03
Speaker 1: It's all about optimizing you get the most out of
2:06
Speaker 1: your genetics and your mind and your brain and your
2:09
Speaker 1: body and your time and your resources and your job
2:12
Speaker 1: and your aspirations and so it's all about kind of,
2:18
Speaker 1: if not human optimization, human improvement and growth. So it's
2:22
Speaker 1: going to be a fun weekend. I love these I
2:25
Speaker 1: very much look forward to it, and also lots of
2:27
Speaker 1: social time. So you might want to edit a chicken
2:30
Speaker 1: wrap with me. You and I might eat a chicken
2:32
Speaker 1: wrap looking at the surf and talk about the meaning
2:34
Speaker 1: of life. So there's that that's worth a ticket. Just
2:38
Speaker 1: that add over, Hi, Doc, Sorry Tiff, did I forget something?
2:46
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, The question that Lillian and I are worth
2:50
Speaker 3: waiting to have answered based on our free podcast Dantor,
2:54
Speaker 3: was is there a great Mexican restaurant near the venue?
2:56
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. We were talking about that. Okay,
3:00
Speaker 1: so we were talking about I don't know what we're
3:01
Speaker 1: talking about. Tell everyone where your favorite Mexican restaurant is, the.
3:05
Speaker 2: Lilian in Australia, the best place it's called it's called
3:12
Speaker 2: the Mexican and it's in Port Douglas and it's really, really,
3:17
Speaker 2: really good.
3:18
Speaker 1: Are you sponsored by them?
3:19
Speaker 2: I really they should pay me because I've told so
3:22
Speaker 2: many people and a lot of people like go to
3:24
Speaker 2: Port Douglas from time to time, and every time I
3:26
Speaker 2: hear the word Port Douglas, I'm like, you have to
3:28
Speaker 2: go to this place, and they go and they agree,
3:31
Speaker 2: So I haven't made the money. Yeah, I discovered like
3:34
Speaker 2: a year and a half, no, two years ago. So yeah,
3:36
Speaker 2: there you go.
3:37
Speaker 1: So your friends to send doctor Lilian some dough the
3:40
Speaker 1: Mexican or I tell you what you can do. Just
3:44
Speaker 1: give her an unlimited kind of account where she can
3:47
Speaker 1: whatever she wants when she comes up, knowing it will
3:49
Speaker 1: probably only be ones every three years. So I think
3:52
Speaker 1: you're safe. If you had to pick a cuisine from
3:56
Speaker 1: any culture, uh, burgers and chips and steak, not oussy
4:03
Speaker 1: no no, no, Like, I mean it could be you know,
4:06
Speaker 1: you could go whatever, but what if you could only
4:09
Speaker 1: go to one for the next three months, not dying
4:13
Speaker 1: there every night? But you know, like what is your
4:16
Speaker 1: top of your list? Which doesn't mean you don't love
4:18
Speaker 1: others as well.
4:19
Speaker 2: But.
4:21
Speaker 3: I would say I lean more to Tie. But I
4:25
Speaker 3: love Japanese, real good Japanese restaurants, mate, like chocolate butter
4:30
Speaker 3: in the city.
4:30
Speaker 1: They're good.
4:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
4:33
Speaker 2: Well I usually asked that question too, but I say, like,
4:36
Speaker 2: if you had to pick three cuisines to have for
4:38
Speaker 2: the rest of your life, what would you pick?
4:42
Speaker 1: Well, that's good, Yeah, I definitely have Tie would be
4:44
Speaker 1: in there. Japanese as well. Like I love Italian food,
4:50
Speaker 1: but it doesn't love me like I love it, Like
4:54
Speaker 1: I love pasta. I love tordolini, ravioli with like even
4:59
Speaker 1: straight all bowl sauce, right, But when I eat pasta
5:03
Speaker 1: it fucks with me for so And I grew up
5:07
Speaker 1: eating pasta because I was fucking thrived on it. Yeah,
5:11
Speaker 1: fat little pasta eating machine.
5:13
Speaker 2: But I love Italian. I mean, Italian would be like
5:16
Speaker 2: my number one mm. But it's not like Italian's much
5:20
Speaker 2: more than pasta and pizza though, Like you could actually
5:23
Speaker 2: do a carb free Italian cuisine if you wanted to,
5:27
Speaker 2: Like there, you know they do amazing muscles and seafood
5:30
Speaker 2: and all sorts of stuff like that. Yeah, that was
5:34
Speaker 2: a great sound, Craig.
5:38
Speaker 1: Muscle Fuck how ironic that I hate muscles? How ironic?
5:42
Speaker 2: Are you sure you hate muscles?
5:44
Speaker 1: Because I thought it's so sure to me? Fish is
5:48
Speaker 1: just steky stuff.
5:49
Speaker 2: Oh you don't like seafood at all?
5:51
Speaker 1: Not much? Like like what fill its of something that
5:55
Speaker 1: don't smell all fishy? I know, I'm like a fucking
5:58
Speaker 1: fussy eight year old.
5:59
Speaker 3: I no cane though you've got a nose on you
6:01
Speaker 3: like no one. I mean, well, it's like, haensive smell.
6:06
Speaker 1: Are you talking about the quality of smell or the
6:08
Speaker 1: fucking magnitude of my proboscus? Started raining the other day,
6:13
Speaker 1: four people came and stood under it. So you know
6:15
Speaker 1: that was do you mind if we just shelter under
6:19
Speaker 1: your eyes? I'm like, yeah, whatever, So that was discouraging,
6:23
Speaker 1: but you get that, but I didn't want to ask you,
6:27
Speaker 1: and everyone's tuning out. Sorry. I have had Mexican only
6:31
Speaker 1: a few times and I really liked it. And there's
6:33
Speaker 1: a Mexican joint near my house, like literally adi meters,
6:37
Speaker 1: but I don't know what to order because I don't know, like,
6:40
Speaker 1: I don't like, is the hard shell? Is that a taco?
6:42
Speaker 1: I know, everyone's like, how stupid are you? I just
6:46
Speaker 1: they do really okay.
6:48
Speaker 2: So I would if you were a first time or
6:50
Speaker 2: at a Mexican place, and I know the place that
6:52
Speaker 2: you're talking about, and there's a couple on our street
6:54
Speaker 2: that are Mexican. Start with tacos. They're they're soft and
7:03
Speaker 2: hard tacos.
7:05
Speaker 1: Soft soft, like I don't like it to be like
7:08
Speaker 1: a corn ship.
7:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you want the soft tacos, and that's normally
7:12
Speaker 2: what they would have at the restaurant you're talking about
7:16
Speaker 2: it soft tacos and just like afferent, like three different
7:19
Speaker 2: versions of it because they have different different kinds of
7:23
Speaker 2: meat like pork wanda beef one of.
7:28
Speaker 1: Is it sham is beif like slices, or is it
7:33
Speaker 1: mince beef?
7:34
Speaker 2: It's not neither. It's usually like a like it could
7:39
Speaker 2: be a brisketty type of beef or like a slow
7:41
Speaker 2: cooked beef. Or it's like if you go to Taco Bill,
7:47
Speaker 2: it'll be mint, it'll be mince and corn hard shells, right,
7:51
Speaker 2: But if you go to like a a nicer Mexican place,
7:55
Speaker 2: it won't. It'll be nicer, nicer.
7:58
Speaker 1: Present by doctor Lilly and she thinks bills is ship.
8:04
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Oh my god.
8:07
Speaker 2: It's typical, like it's typically what you would expect it
8:11
Speaker 2: in Mexican place, but it's not like the nicer version
8:14
Speaker 2: of it.
8:15
Speaker 1: Are you good? Cooked up?
8:17
Speaker 2: I can cook. I don't enjoy cooking.
8:21
Speaker 1: Ah, that's very interesting.
8:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not.
8:24
Speaker 1: I prefer to what happens to you, what happened, sorry,
8:26
Speaker 1: what happens at your joint? Every night?
8:28
Speaker 2: My husband cooks, Oh my god, yeah, he loves it
8:32
Speaker 2: and he cooks for us the time.
8:35
Speaker 1: Wow, does he want a boyfriend? If you want, just
8:43
Speaker 1: check it out. Tell him I'll spin him on the
8:45
Speaker 1: couch and we can watch the footy.
8:47
Speaker 2: Sorry, he's all mine?
8:50
Speaker 1: Yeah what ifs? I'm not good at relationships anyway. So
8:53
Speaker 1: that was a pure hypothetical. Should we talk about that, Craig, No, No,
8:58
Speaker 1: don't fucking psycho me.
9:01
Speaker 2: I don't just like the analysis.
9:03
Speaker 1: You know that somebody said yesterday, for the one million
9:08
Speaker 1: time in my life, you've got commitment issues, and I
9:11
Speaker 1: went yes. Next it's like, well yeah, and they're like
9:16
Speaker 1: that was that was meant to be some revelation to
9:18
Speaker 1: me from them? Yeah, that's like saying you've got quite
9:22
Speaker 1: a big nose.
9:23
Speaker 2: Yep.
9:24
Speaker 1: Anyway, So we were going to talk today, not about
9:27
Speaker 1: Mexican food or flying into state to get it or
9:31
Speaker 1: spooning your husband on the couch. We're going to talk.
9:35
Speaker 1: We talk about OCD and anxiety. It seems to me
9:39
Speaker 1: maybe it's just the people that I insect with or
9:42
Speaker 1: the social media that comes across my attention is anxiety.
9:48
Speaker 1: Let's start with anxiety. And I know there's no in
9:50
Speaker 1: inverted commas solution, as in, here's what everyone should do.
9:57
Speaker 1: But it's kind of a it's an in to section
10:00
Speaker 1: of different things. So what do we call like the
10:06
Speaker 1: what's the clinical name for one of a better term
10:09
Speaker 1: of extreme anxiety? Like if somebody suffers from anxiety daily
10:14
Speaker 1: and it impacts their life consistently in a negative way,
10:18
Speaker 1: what do we call that?
10:20
Speaker 2: So I divide it into three sections, So we have
10:24
Speaker 2: functional anxiety. Right, So functional anxiety meaning like we all
10:29
Speaker 2: experience anxiety because it's a natural mechanism of our bodies
10:35
Speaker 2: and minds that signals a threat or a potential problem,
10:38
Speaker 2: and it activates our bodies to protect us. That's functional anxiety.
10:41
Speaker 2: If it's functioning for you and helping you, right, helping
10:44
Speaker 2: you protect yourself or prepare or plan or problem solve,
10:49
Speaker 2: then there's dysfunctional anxiety.
10:51
Speaker 1: Right.
10:52
Speaker 2: Dysfunctional anxiety is when a number of things could be happening.
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Speaker 2: So one is, you're getting the alarm bell but there's
11:00
Speaker 2: no actual threat, so it's signaling a threat that is
11:03
Speaker 2: either imagined or exaggerated in some way. It could also
11:08
Speaker 2: be that it's activating your body in a way that
11:11
Speaker 2: isn't particularly helpful or productive or necessary. Right, And then
11:18
Speaker 2: the other thing is that it could motivate you to
11:21
Speaker 2: respond in an unhelpful or unhealthy or ineffective way. So
11:25
Speaker 2: if it's functional, you know, it activates fight or flight,
11:28
Speaker 2: and then you're using either fight or flight or freeze
11:31
Speaker 2: in a way that's actually helpful. Dysfunctional anxiety would be
11:36
Speaker 2: it's alerting you and you have the fight or flight
11:41
Speaker 2: and it's motivating you, but you're responding in a way
11:44
Speaker 2: that isn't going to be particularly helpful. And that might
11:47
Speaker 2: be a whole range of.
11:48
Speaker 1: Things before we get to number three, just so I
11:50
Speaker 1: can get clear in my head. So if we're responding
11:55
Speaker 1: in a way which is inconsistent with or inappropriate for
11:58
Speaker 1: the actual threat, Like there may be no threat, but
12:02
Speaker 1: we think there's a threat, right, yeah, yeah, And so
12:05
Speaker 1: we respond to our version of reality, which are something
12:09
Speaker 1: bad's going to happen, this is terrible, I'm in danger,
12:11
Speaker 1: whatever it is. The objective reality of the situation or
12:15
Speaker 1: the context is no, that's not true, Harps, You're not
12:17
Speaker 1: in danger. There's no immediate problem, there's nothing impending that's
12:23
Speaker 1: going to derail you or whatever. Right, So on a level,
12:27
Speaker 1: we create the anxiety, not the situation, context or circumstance
12:32
Speaker 1: or alleged problem, because there isn't one in this version,
12:35
Speaker 1: so we are. So when people go, oh, that makes
12:39
Speaker 1: me anxious, sometimes the truth is I make me anxious. Yeah.
12:44
Speaker 2: It's like when the you know, the fire alarm goes
12:47
Speaker 2: off in your house but there's no fire, yeah, right,
12:52
Speaker 2: and it's like and you know it's it's a big alarm,
12:55
Speaker 2: so it's jarring. Yeah, it activates you and then you're
13:01
Speaker 2: looking around there's no smoke and nothing, and it's just
13:03
Speaker 2: super annoying and you have to find a way of
13:05
Speaker 2: like getting the brew mountain and turning it off. Right.
13:09
Speaker 2: So if you don't have the insight into the fact
13:13
Speaker 2: that there's no fire, yeah, that's a problem that's dysfunctional.
13:19
Speaker 2: You if you know that there's no fire, but you
13:21
Speaker 2: can't manage the activation, yes, right, Or and you can't
13:28
Speaker 2: do the response that's going to be helpful, which is
13:30
Speaker 2: just turn the alarm off. Yes, then that's a problem
13:34
Speaker 2: that's dysfunctional. Yes, now that happens. Sorry you want to
13:39
Speaker 2: go that's all right?
13:40
Speaker 1: No, sorry, you have a gap and then I talk
13:44
Speaker 1: and then that's my dad everyone, And yes, you don't
13:47
Speaker 1: need to send me another email. I can help. I know,
13:53
Speaker 1: I interrupt, I got it loud and clear. I don't
13:55
Speaker 1: mean to just get excited.
13:59
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's all good.
14:01
Speaker 1: That reminds me of that very I don't know if
14:05
Speaker 1: it's finmous it's monally famous, but that al sign don't
14:08
Speaker 1: believe everything you think.
14:10
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that, I mean, that's one of the main issues.
14:13
Speaker 2: Like you said before, it's not it's not always the situation.
14:16
Speaker 2: It's sometimes what's happening internally, yes, and our thoughts. I mean,
14:22
Speaker 2: the foundation of modern therapy, you know, for a lot
14:27
Speaker 2: of the therapies that you know we use in a
14:29
Speaker 2: psychological sense, is that your thoughts influence your feelings and behaviors.
14:37
Speaker 2: So it isn't always the situation. It's how you've interpreted
14:41
Speaker 2: the situation, how you perceive the situation, your beliefs about
14:45
Speaker 2: the situation that can lead to dysfunctional responses. Whether it's
14:50
Speaker 2: the finn feeling wise, thinking wise, behavior wise.
14:56
Speaker 1: Do you think it's the emotion or the thought that
14:59
Speaker 1: comes first?
15:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that is like a that's a very contentious issue,
15:06
Speaker 2: and it doesn't need to be because I think the
15:07
Speaker 2: answer is both. I think both can come first. If
15:10
Speaker 2: you hear like a lot of people will notice the
15:13
Speaker 2: emotion first. So a lot of people say, I just
15:17
Speaker 2: felt like, I don't know, you know, the emotion came
15:19
Speaker 2: and then you know, everything else came after that. And
15:21
Speaker 2: that may be true, or it could also be that
15:26
Speaker 2: people aren't as mindful of what their thoughts are, so
15:29
Speaker 2: they're not noticing the thoughts, they're noticing the feeling. But
15:34
Speaker 2: I don't think there's like one answer. I think that like,
15:39
Speaker 2: it's very possible for there to be an automatic thought
15:42
Speaker 2: that leads to feelings and behaviors and more thoughts, and
15:45
Speaker 2: there definitely can be an automatic emotion or like even
15:49
Speaker 2: physiological response that happens first, and then everything ensues after
15:53
Speaker 2: that as well. But no matter what comes first, we
15:58
Speaker 2: still interpreting that. So it's and that interpretation is very powerful.
16:05
Speaker 2: How you interpret that, whatever the first thing is is
16:10
Speaker 2: potentially going to influence you know, the rest.
16:15
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't imagine as a clinician, which you are,
16:19
Speaker 1: Dr Lillian is a clinical psyche. Did I get that right?
16:23
Speaker 1: I didn't fuck that right? No, that's right, because let's
16:26
Speaker 1: say in this hypothetical, I I'm on stage and I'm
16:32
Speaker 1: doing a gig, and in the gig, I don't know this,
16:36
Speaker 1: but everyone's kind of having an okay time. They're somewhere
16:40
Speaker 1: between this is not bad and this is really interesting.
16:42
Speaker 1: But in my moment up on stage, my insecurity raises
16:46
Speaker 1: its ugly head and my shit self esteem and my
16:48
Speaker 1: childhood bullshit, and and my story is, oh, they fucking
16:52
Speaker 1: hate me, they hate this, But the truth is not that. Yeah,
16:57
Speaker 1: my thought is, oh, they don't like me. I'm never
17:02
Speaker 1: going to get another gig with this company. Blah blah blah.
17:05
Speaker 1: I'm not doing a good job filling the black right.
17:08
Speaker 1: Then the emotion around that is fear, is whatever apprehension,
17:14
Speaker 1: maybe even anger at myself that I didn't fucking prepare better.
17:18
Speaker 1: And then the physiology off the back of that is
17:20
Speaker 1: all the things we talk about all the time, heart rate, respiration, stress,
17:25
Speaker 1: stress or moment, sympathetic nervous system, all that stuff. And
17:28
Speaker 1: so it's like this multifactorial thing. It's like this convergence
17:35
Speaker 1: of three systems, which is really one system. It's like,
17:39
Speaker 1: you know, mind body emotions for one of the better.
17:42
Speaker 1: It's like one collaborative if that's the right word, but
17:46
Speaker 1: one intersecting system where everything kind of affects everything. Like
17:51
Speaker 1: you can't get really scared and your heart rate not
17:54
Speaker 1: go up. You can't be fearful and not produce you know,
17:58
Speaker 1: stress hormones, right, you can't. So it's like, yeah, this
18:03
Speaker 1: is a problem of the mind and everything else. So
18:07
Speaker 1: it's understanding the physical consequences of the stepping off point,
18:12
Speaker 1: which could be emotion or mind according to you, which
18:15
Speaker 1: I agree with. But then that also like I was
18:21
Speaker 1: talking to somebody yesterday who just a person.
18:25
Speaker 2: I know.
18:26
Speaker 1: I don't want to give anything away, but this person
18:29
Speaker 1: essentially had like a lot of like a big response
18:35
Speaker 1: to something like a uh, you know, a real emotional
18:39
Speaker 1: and psychological crisis a few months ago, and they're coming
18:43
Speaker 1: out of that slowly. But said to me yesterday, I
18:48
Speaker 1: don't even know why, but I feel so anxious like that,
18:53
Speaker 1: and they're not. There's not something they're particularly worried about.
18:56
Speaker 1: It's like, so the anxiety exists without a even some
19:00
Speaker 1: focus of what's care, you know, It's like it can
19:04
Speaker 1: almost exist in the body as an experience devoid of
19:08
Speaker 1: reason or or you know.
19:12
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, yeah, I don't.
19:14
Speaker 1: Even know why I feel like this, but I'm sure
19:16
Speaker 1: to breath I feel really anxious. I don't know why.
19:20
Speaker 1: There's nothing I'm particularly focused on or worried about, but nonetheless,
19:24
Speaker 1: here I am. What's that?
19:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that can be so many different things.
19:29
Speaker 2: Sometimes it can be cumulative stress. So you know, like
19:34
Speaker 2: you are operating at a let's say you're a high achiever,
19:38
Speaker 2: or you have your own business, or you're you're doing
19:40
Speaker 2: a stressful job, or you've got a lot of things
19:44
Speaker 2: going on over a long period of time, and you're
19:48
Speaker 2: handling it. You know, you're going, you're handling it. You
19:52
Speaker 2: keep going, you keep going and keep going. But the
19:55
Speaker 2: impact of that over time is you've got cumulative stress
19:59
Speaker 2: and then you and then you start feeling like that
20:02
Speaker 2: tension in your chest and worries and you're like, but
20:06
Speaker 2: there's nothing happening right this second, I don't get it.
20:10
Speaker 2: Sometimes that can Sometimes that can happen, like people will
20:13
Speaker 2: get a panic attack. So that's that very intense anxiety reaction.
20:21
Speaker 2: And the experience of panic attacks is out of the blue.
20:25
Speaker 2: It's like it just happened, and you're like, that doesn't
20:28
Speaker 2: make any sense, why did that happen? But if you
20:32
Speaker 2: actually delve into it a little bit more there's usually
20:39
Speaker 2: a reason or multiple reasons over time, and that it
20:43
Speaker 2: could be situational. It could be like there's multiple stressors
20:47
Speaker 2: over time, or it could be down to beliefs, and
20:54
Speaker 2: or it could be something that's physical, like there are
21:01
Speaker 2: lots of places that to look. It could be down
21:06
Speaker 2: to your behaviors, like well, you've you've not realized it,
21:09
Speaker 2: but you've you've stopped, you're starting to sleep six hours
21:12
Speaker 2: a night instead of eight hours a night, or you're
21:14
Speaker 2: eating fast food more often, or you know your your
21:19
Speaker 2: child is having some trouble at school, or it could
21:23
Speaker 2: be so many different things. That's why it is really
21:26
Speaker 2: important to kind of understand what it might be, but
21:32
Speaker 2: also not to be afraid of it. I think sometimes
21:35
Speaker 2: when people experience anxiety, there's two things that happen. One
21:39
Speaker 2: is they get really scared about it. They don't you know,
21:42
Speaker 2: and they and then they judge themselves for it. I
21:46
Speaker 2: should feel this way.
21:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of things. It's so many things. As
21:52
Speaker 1: you were talking there, it's good.
21:54
Speaker 2: I think.
21:54
Speaker 1: Also stuff can be going on in your body, like
21:57
Speaker 1: you said, well, maybe you had shit sleep. Well, it's
22:00
Speaker 1: probably going to increase cortisole production because you're not fully recovered,
22:04
Speaker 1: or there's been this low level kind of you're in
22:07
Speaker 1: an office where there's a lot of bullshit going on.
22:10
Speaker 1: It's not about you, but it's around you, and so
22:13
Speaker 1: there's this kind of subconscious impact. Maybe your conscious is
22:18
Speaker 1: not even aware of it, but now you're producing a
22:21
Speaker 1: bit of cortisole and adrenaline and all this stuff's happening
22:25
Speaker 1: in your body that you are obviously not choosing or regulating,
22:31
Speaker 1: and it's almost like this unconscious thing that's happening where yeah,
22:38
Speaker 1: it doesn't make it makes sense to your body, but
22:41
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to your mind because you don't know,
22:44
Speaker 1: like why is this happening? And I think also sometimes
22:48
Speaker 1: I feel like anxiety. It's like filling up a cup
22:51
Speaker 1: of water. It's okay, and it's getting near that and
22:53
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm good. I'm good. I say that all
22:56
Speaker 1: the time, how are you? Yep? Good? And there might
22:58
Speaker 1: be thirty three things, not thirty, but there might be
23:00
Speaker 1: five or six things going on that are challenging. I'm good.
23:03
Speaker 1: And part of the reason I do that is because
23:05
Speaker 1: I think I am good, but maybe I'm not always
23:08
Speaker 1: as good as I think. Also, for me, you know
23:13
Speaker 1: how for a lot of people, talk therapy is great,
23:16
Speaker 1: but we know that it's not great for everyone. So
23:19
Speaker 1: there are a percentage of people who when they talk
23:22
Speaker 1: about the thing, it doesn't help it. Potentially a small
23:25
Speaker 1: percentage of course, and everyone who talks to you gets transforms.
23:28
Speaker 1: We know that it's different, but that like if somebody
23:32
Speaker 1: goes to me how your parents, and I go, yep,
23:36
Speaker 1: pretty good, thanks, and you asked me that yesterday. So
23:38
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about you, but no, it depends on
23:42
Speaker 1: where I'm at. Like there are sometimes when if people
23:46
Speaker 1: keep and their intentions are good, so I'm not at
23:48
Speaker 1: all resentful, but they keep going, oh and they want
23:51
Speaker 1: to know more and more and more and more, And
23:53
Speaker 1: I'm like, like, here's the truth. Right, They're not great,
23:57
Speaker 1: but it's fine, right, But when I talk about that,
24:00
Speaker 1: nannswer and then we keep pribing and what about this?
24:03
Speaker 1: What about that? Have they got that you know that
24:06
Speaker 1: age care number yet? And if they done this assessment
24:08
Speaker 1: that It's like when I finish that, I feel fucked
24:12
Speaker 1: and I'm unhappier than when I started. It's like, I
24:17
Speaker 1: don't I'm not trying to be rude to you. I
24:18
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it. It doesn't move the needle.
24:21
Speaker 1: There's no, it doesn't help them, it doesn't change the situation.
24:26
Speaker 1: And also for me, I'm not saying this is anyone else,
24:28
Speaker 1: but for me, it doesn't help. And so there's that
24:32
Speaker 1: as well, the complexity around when to talk, when not
24:35
Speaker 1: to talk, when to open the door, when to leave
24:37
Speaker 1: it shut, because it's not like, oh, you need to
24:40
Speaker 1: talk about it, you know what. Some people don't, well
24:43
Speaker 1: they don't at that point in time. I think we
24:45
Speaker 1: all get to a point where, you know, one day
24:47
Speaker 1: I'm going to ring you and I'm going to fucking
24:49
Speaker 1: unload for three hours and you're going to go, I
24:51
Speaker 1: wish you get that door shut because this is exhausting.
24:55
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, totally. I think it's really important to
24:58
Speaker 2: take the cues. I think, you know, like if I
25:01
Speaker 2: ask you, if I ask you, for instance, how your
25:05
Speaker 2: parents are, and you say it's fine. And when you
25:10
Speaker 2: say it's fine, I feel like what you're saying is
25:14
Speaker 2: I'm in an acceptance place about it, yea. And if
25:18
Speaker 2: you continue the conversation, that's my cue that it's okay
25:21
Speaker 2: to continue the conversation. And if you don't, then that's
25:25
Speaker 2: my cue to not do that. And because I know
25:29
Speaker 2: you and I know that you're you know, you're a
25:31
Speaker 2: very capable person and I'm not there to like solve
25:34
Speaker 2: your problems or fix you or anything like. I'm just
25:37
Speaker 2: there is a friend and a support if you needed
25:40
Speaker 2: a support. But if you're you're good, I'm you know,
25:42
Speaker 2: I'm not going to intrude. So I feel like part
25:45
Speaker 2: of it is just listening out to the other person
25:48
Speaker 2: about what they're actually wanting and needing and doing that.
25:53
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us want to jump in
25:54
Speaker 2: and try to solve and fix and problem solve, and
25:56
Speaker 2: that's most of us, honestly. When when most of us
25:59
Speaker 2: here a problem or somebody tells us a problem, we're like,
26:03
Speaker 2: oh what about this? What about that? You know, we're
26:05
Speaker 2: like straight into advice giving mode and you know, solution
26:08
Speaker 2: focus mode. But honestly, most people don't want that unless
26:13
Speaker 2: they ask for it. Yeah, you know, like if you
26:17
Speaker 2: ask for advice, that's something completely different. But if you
26:20
Speaker 2: just say like, oh, I'm feeling like this because of this,
26:23
Speaker 2: that is not necessarily an open door to you jumping
26:27
Speaker 2: in and saying, well, have you thought of this? Have
26:28
Speaker 2: you thought of that, why don't you try this or
26:29
Speaker 2: aren't you ask before you give advice. Sometimes people just
26:33
Speaker 2: want to say it and that's it. Sometimes people want
26:36
Speaker 2: to just vent and that's it. Sometimes people just want
26:38
Speaker 2: to be validated for how they feel, and that's it.
26:42
Speaker 2: And it's a skill, I think to just sit with
26:45
Speaker 2: somebody's distress and not try to fix it.
26:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't sorry. I was going to say, you sit
26:54
Speaker 1: at the start that anxiety presents itself on three levels
26:58
Speaker 1: or in three wise one was functional, too, is dysfunctional?
27:01
Speaker 1: What's the third one?
27:03
Speaker 2: The third one is disordered?
27:05
Speaker 1: Right? Unpack that.
27:07
Speaker 2: So you asked me at the beginning, what what are
27:10
Speaker 2: the disorders? Or how does that? How does that kind
27:12
Speaker 2: of work? So functional dysfunctional, We've talked about that. So
27:15
Speaker 2: disordered is basically a more intense version of dysfunctional. So
27:23
Speaker 2: like I say, higher intensity, longer duration, more frequency, the
27:29
Speaker 2: responsors are out of proportion to the issue. It's leading
27:33
Speaker 2: to acute and chronic symptoms. It's significantly and negatively impacting
27:40
Speaker 2: important other areas of your life, whether that be your
27:43
Speaker 2: healthier work, your relationships, your self concept, if it's doing
27:47
Speaker 2: If that's the case for a duration of time, and
27:54
Speaker 2: normally for a disorder to be diagnosed, the duration for
27:58
Speaker 2: most anxiety disorders is months. For panic disorder, it's one
28:04
Speaker 2: one month. That's the difference. So just because you have
28:09
Speaker 2: dysfunctional anxiety does not necessarily mean you have an anxiety disorder.
28:15
Speaker 2: But we don't tend to talk about anxiety in a
28:18
Speaker 2: nuanced way. People tended to say I'm anxious, and that
28:25
Speaker 2: sometimes can be any it could be any of those
28:28
Speaker 2: three things. Like you might be anxious about going on,
28:31
Speaker 2: you know, doing a big presentation tomorrow, and that's a
28:35
Speaker 2: completely normative thing to feel like it's a big deal.
28:39
Speaker 2: It's a presentation you have to perform. It makes sense
28:42
Speaker 2: for you to feel anxious about that. And if it's functional,
28:45
Speaker 2: then it's it will do like that. Anxiety will motivate
28:48
Speaker 2: you to prepare and to practice and it won't stop
28:53
Speaker 2: you from doing it right. And if it's dysfunctional, then
28:57
Speaker 2: you might get like more intense anxiety and you might
29:01
Speaker 2: decide to cancel, you know, Like there's lots of dysfunctional
29:04
Speaker 2: ways that anxiety can prevent or or like you're so
29:08
Speaker 2: nervous that you can't actually present it in a way
29:11
Speaker 2: that you want to and then but the disorder might
29:17
Speaker 2: be like, now you have a phobia of public speaking, yes,
29:23
Speaker 2: and that's generalized to not just big presentations, but now
29:27
Speaker 2: like you have a hard time sharing a meeting you know,
29:33
Speaker 2: or talking in a group of in a social context
29:36
Speaker 2: with a group of friends, or meeting strangers. And that's
29:40
Speaker 2: what can happen with anxiety disorders is that it generalizes
29:44
Speaker 2: to more areas of your life, and then your life
29:47
Speaker 2: becomes much much smaller, and you're afraid of more and
29:50
Speaker 2: more things, and your life becomes avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid,
29:55
Speaker 2: which makes anxiety more severe, more significant.
30:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like anxiety kind of lives a parallel
30:07
Speaker 1: to other issues, like which we're going to talk about
30:11
Speaker 1: maybe later to another level. But OCD, I feel like
30:14
Speaker 1: they intersect or they put together. I feel like a
30:18
Speaker 1: couple of random ones that while you're talking, I was thinking,
30:21
Speaker 1: like agrophobia or agoraphobia, you know, fear of going outside,
30:26
Speaker 1: fear of being in rooms with lots of people. Like
30:28
Speaker 1: there's anxiety wrapped around that. Body dysmorphia. People who don't
30:34
Speaker 1: really see themselves as other people see them physically, so
30:39
Speaker 1: they're always distressed about how they look and they're never
30:41
Speaker 1: this enough or that enough for it. That's always you know,
30:45
Speaker 1: they're hideous blah blah blah. And there's a lot of
30:47
Speaker 1: anxiety wrapped around that. And first cousin to that, which
30:51
Speaker 1: I've dealt with, I don't know how many people hundreds
30:55
Speaker 1: are people with eating disorders. There's so much anxiety around
31:00
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about disordered eating, I'm talking about eating disorders.
31:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:04
Speaker 1: And then the one that you already brought up, which
31:06
Speaker 1: was you know, performance related or performance anxiety. It's like
31:11
Speaker 1: it's not the right word, but it collaborates with a
31:15
Speaker 1: lot of other kind of psychological and emotional challenges.
31:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean some of the ones that you mentioned
31:22
Speaker 2: are actual anxiety disorders. So like there's basically five under
31:28
Speaker 2: like the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. You know, if you're
31:31
Speaker 2: looking at the DSM, like specific phobias is one, and
31:36
Speaker 2: that includes like public speaking and spiders and heights and
31:40
Speaker 2: stuff like that. That might be under social phobia, which
31:47
Speaker 2: is also called social anxiety disorder. And then there's panic disorder,
31:51
Speaker 2: which we which is not just the experience of panic attacks,
31:54
Speaker 2: it's the fear of having more panic attacks.
31:57
Speaker 1: Wow, imagine getting anxiety about the possibility of getting anxiety.
32:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what panic disorder actually is.
32:05
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, wow.
32:07
Speaker 2: And then agoraphobia used to be only connected to panic disorder,
32:11
Speaker 2: but now they've separated it out as a separate disorder,
32:15
Speaker 2: and then generalized anxiety disorder is the disorder that is
32:19
Speaker 2: characterized by excessive worry. But what you were saying in
32:23
Speaker 2: terms of how anxiety kind of underpins lots of disorders,
32:26
Speaker 2: and it does. And I think like worry is one
32:29
Speaker 2: of the main underpinnings of all of the anxiety disorders
32:32
Speaker 2: and many other disorders, like eating disorders, like worry about
32:37
Speaker 2: body image and judgment from others and being overweight or
32:43
Speaker 2: and you know, depression is worrying about often ruminating about
32:48
Speaker 2: the past, and worrying about how you know some people
32:51
Speaker 2: look at us, worrying about how we are, what our
32:54
Speaker 2: self worth is. There's so many, all, almost all the
32:58
Speaker 2: psychiatric diagnoses out there underpinned by worry and anxiety.
33:03
Speaker 1: Do you think that anxiety is the symptom or the problem?
33:09
Speaker 1: Let me explain. I feel like so many things we
33:12
Speaker 1: go this is a problem, this is the problem, And
33:14
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, that thing up there is not the problem.
33:17
Speaker 1: That's the symptom down here is the problem. I feel
33:20
Speaker 1: like fear is the driver of anxiety, right.
33:24
Speaker 2: Well, the way that's psychology kind of defines them is
33:30
Speaker 2: anxiety is like in anticipation of an event, a threat,
33:36
Speaker 2: whereas fear is the threat is imminent. That's the difference
33:41
Speaker 2: between anxiety and fear to me, and.
33:45
Speaker 1: You're the guru, not me, but to me, it seems
33:47
Speaker 1: like if somebody is anxious about something, I go to them,
33:50
Speaker 1: what are you scared of? And they go scared of this, this, this?
33:54
Speaker 1: And I go and if that didn't exist, would you
33:56
Speaker 1: be I mean obviously they go, well, no, I wouldn't
33:58
Speaker 1: have this anxiety if that wasn't I don't know. I
34:01
Speaker 1: think it's very not disagreeing with you at all. I
34:06
Speaker 1: just think they're so intertwined. And sometimes I think with people,
34:10
Speaker 1: let's let's do It's like, oh, the symptom is my
34:15
Speaker 1: arm's broken. Oh, let's put that in a sling. No,
34:18
Speaker 1: let's reset the arm, let's fix the brake, let's you know,
34:22
Speaker 1: and then let's put it in a sling. Or you
34:26
Speaker 1: know that I'm exhausted, cool, have four coffees a day,
34:31
Speaker 1: not too Nah, let's deal with the underlying cause of
34:35
Speaker 1: the exhaustion. Let's figure out what's happening in your body.
34:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think like part of the issue
34:42
Speaker 2: is we think we shouldn't feel anxious, and I think
34:46
Speaker 2: it's not it's not anxiety that's the problem. If it's
34:49
Speaker 2: the interaction with anxiety that is the problem.
34:55
Speaker 1: So do you think some people feel the same thing, Like,
34:59
Speaker 1: let's say, for example, if it's hard to because how
35:02
Speaker 1: do you know because it's subjective, But let's just say
35:05
Speaker 1: theoretically there was a way to go. What Craig is
35:08
Speaker 1: feeling is what TIFF's feeling. Tiff feels high level anxiety
35:13
Speaker 1: but more than anything, focused and concentration and excitement, right,
35:18
Speaker 1: And I feel the same thing and I'm basically incapacitated.
35:22
Speaker 1: Like that same feeling creates a different reaction person person,
35:27
Speaker 1: you know.
35:27
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's what we were talking about before with
35:29
Speaker 2: like cognitive therapy would be looking at, well, how are
35:32
Speaker 2: you guys thinking differently about this? Like the example that
35:36
Speaker 2: you used before about like you're doing a presentation and
35:39
Speaker 2: all of a sudden your thoughts go to they hate me. Yeah,
35:43
Speaker 2: so let's say like you and Tiffany both doing a
35:46
Speaker 2: presentation and both of you have that thought, yeah, and
35:50
Speaker 2: your next thought is, oh, my god, like I'm doing
35:54
Speaker 2: a terrible job and now I'm like going to lose
35:56
Speaker 2: my place and it just you know, you could go
35:59
Speaker 2: on and not.
36:02
Speaker 1: Going to get another gig yet I get.
36:03
Speaker 2: Right, So your feelings on that chain of thinking is
36:08
Speaker 2: going to be what It's going to lead to more anxiety,
36:12
Speaker 2: maybe thoughts about self worth, maybe maybe depression to an
36:17
Speaker 2: extent now. But but TIFF's response to that thought is like, oh,
36:21
Speaker 2: that's one of those thoughts that I sometimes have, yeah, right,
36:25
Speaker 2: Or what if they hate me? If I can cope
36:29
Speaker 2: with that, yeah, like you know, there's no real evidence
36:33
Speaker 2: for it. But if they hate me, it's like, well
36:35
Speaker 2: I'll survive it, yes, yes, right. So it's the interpretation
36:39
Speaker 2: and the interaction with the thought. And I think a
36:43
Speaker 2: lot of people think that when they have like a
36:45
Speaker 2: negative what they say is a negative thought, Yeah, they
36:49
Speaker 2: want to stop it, avoid it, push it away rather
36:53
Speaker 2: than interact with it. And that se that's like that's
36:57
Speaker 2: an avoidance response, right, Like I don't like this experience
37:01
Speaker 2: and I shouldn't be having it. I'm going to squash
37:04
Speaker 2: it because it shouldn't be there, and I hate it
37:06
Speaker 2: and I don't like it. But the research on thought
37:09
Speaker 2: suppression is the more you try to suppress, the more
37:13
Speaker 2: it wants to come up again, because if it's an
37:17
Speaker 2: anxiety response, it's trying to protect you. And so if
37:23
Speaker 2: you just if you're like no, stop and it's like,
37:27
Speaker 2: hold on a second, this is important. I need to
37:31
Speaker 2: tell you this. You need to listen, right, So if
37:35
Speaker 2: you can find a way of making that process more functional,
37:40
Speaker 2: like oh, that's one of those thoughts, I recognize that thought.
37:42
Speaker 2: I've had that thought in the past, or oh, I've
37:47
Speaker 2: heard you and I've assessed it and I don't need
37:50
Speaker 2: to worry about it, or this is this is a
37:53
Speaker 2: problem that I hear you. I don't have time to
37:56
Speaker 2: deal with this right now, but at five o'clock tonight,
37:59
Speaker 2: I'm going to deal with you.
38:01
Speaker 1: I just wonder whether or not the theory of that
38:04
Speaker 1: happens in the real world. Like I feel like when
38:07
Speaker 1: someone is truly anxious, what you're saying makes sense on
38:10
Speaker 1: a podcast, But I don't know that somebody who's fucking
38:13
Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole in anxiety and everything's elevated can
38:17
Speaker 1: have that chat and just switch it off.
38:19
Speaker 2: No, but it's and it's not about switching it off.
38:22
Speaker 2: And I totally understand what you're saying, because you're right.
38:25
Speaker 2: If you're like at the crisis point of anxiety and
38:28
Speaker 2: you're like very distressed, the part of your brain that
38:32
Speaker 2: will think of those things has shut down.
38:34
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:35
Speaker 2: So it so like if someone was to come in
38:37
Speaker 2: to see me, I'm not telling I'm not going to say,
38:41
Speaker 2: here are the strategies when you get really distressed, do
38:43
Speaker 2: these things I'm going to I'm we're going to talk
38:47
Speaker 2: about We're going to practice a few strategies when someone
38:50
Speaker 2: isn't stressed right at that level, See what feels good,
38:56
Speaker 2: see what works well, see what someone is willing to do,
39:03
Speaker 2: and then have those go to strategies ready somewhere their
39:08
Speaker 2: go to strategies. Yeah, and then when they get distressed
39:12
Speaker 2: the next time, what I often think is helpful is
39:15
Speaker 2: they don't have to think about anything else but go
39:17
Speaker 2: back to that list of their go tos. Because when
39:21
Speaker 2: you're distressed, you can't think properly. But if you know,
39:23
Speaker 2: like there's a place you can go that will help
39:27
Speaker 2: switch on that part of your brain, that's like. And
39:31
Speaker 2: also I think sometimes even just being able to identify
39:35
Speaker 2: your emotion because when you're really distressed, you're in it
39:40
Speaker 2: and you're just feeling it and you're not like pausing
39:43
Speaker 2: to be like I'm having this feeling. That's a skill
39:46
Speaker 2: like anything else.
39:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree, And that's quite insightful. I think
39:50
Speaker 1: like it feels almost like our brain and our body
39:54
Speaker 1: are running the show and our mind's lack a passenger,
39:58
Speaker 1: an unwilling passing who doesn't have the solutions in the moment,
40:02
Speaker 1: and it's like your brain, you know, like your brain's
40:06
Speaker 1: producing all these chemicals, it's sending all these you know,
40:11
Speaker 1: signals to all the organs in your body to do
40:14
Speaker 1: this and produce more or less of that. And that's
40:17
Speaker 1: happening despite you, not because of you, but on the
40:21
Speaker 1: because of you front. Is the mind where we're analyzing
40:25
Speaker 1: what's going on and we're trying to give meaning to
40:27
Speaker 1: what's going on, and we're trying to think clearly, and
40:29
Speaker 1: we're trying to kind of salvage some kind of sanity
40:33
Speaker 1: or comfort or something. But it's almost like it's you
40:37
Speaker 1: versus your body. It's you versus your brain, because your
40:40
Speaker 1: brain's made an assessment and take an action that you
40:44
Speaker 1: weren't involved in, you know, And then then it's like
40:47
Speaker 1: fucking hell. It's like I can't make my brain do
40:50
Speaker 1: different stuff, not right now, not right in the moment.
40:54
Speaker 1: It's just doing what it does when it perceives threat.
40:58
Speaker 1: It does all these things, and now online be here
41:02
Speaker 1: an unwilling passenger who's in the middle of a shipfest
41:06
Speaker 1: of psychological trauma that I don't want. Yeah, it's a
41:11
Speaker 1: really interesting combination of things going on.
41:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's self perpetuating, and there are different ways
41:20
Speaker 2: to intervene on it. Yeah, And it's about like starting
41:25
Speaker 2: that process because if you keep doing the same thing
41:28
Speaker 2: and responding in the same way, yeah, it becomes harder
41:32
Speaker 2: and harder, and that neural pathway becomes stronger and stronger,
41:35
Speaker 2: and it becomes like a habit now, a habit of
41:38
Speaker 2: the mind, a habit of responses. Yes, and it feels
41:41
Speaker 2: automatic and unchangeable, but nothing is unchangeable. You absolutely can
41:46
Speaker 2: change it, like one of the ways. I don't know
41:48
Speaker 2: where this analogy came from, but I really liked it,
41:50
Speaker 2: and I use it with my client sometimes. But it's
41:52
Speaker 2: like if you're skiing down a mountain and you just
41:59
Speaker 2: take the same path every time they pass, same paths,
42:02
Speaker 2: same path So over time you're in this like deep
42:06
Speaker 2: groove with snow like walls you know, beside you, and
42:10
Speaker 2: you can't see any other path Yes, but they exist,
42:15
Speaker 2: that is true. So it's about trying to find those
42:19
Speaker 2: other paths, experimenting with other paths and starting to create
42:25
Speaker 2: new habits and new ways, new pathways of behaving and
42:31
Speaker 2: responding to things. And that's certainly possible, but it's possible
42:34
Speaker 2: in a number of different ways. I think it's not
42:37
Speaker 2: just a cognitive therapy thing where you just change your
42:40
Speaker 2: thoughts and automatically everything is great. Sometimes it is about
42:43
Speaker 2: the situation. Sometimes people learn in circumstances that are untenable
42:48
Speaker 2: and you need to like think about ways of like
42:50
Speaker 2: how do we make the environment better for this person.
42:53
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's about it is like a about their overall
42:59
Speaker 2: level of stress and anxiety that they carry on a
43:02
Speaker 2: general basis without any you know, major things that happening,
43:07
Speaker 2: Like some people are at it. So if we think
43:09
Speaker 2: about everyone has a certain level of stress and stress
43:13
Speaker 2: is good, just like anxiety is good. It has serves
43:15
Speaker 2: a function. If we had zero stress, we would have
43:17
Speaker 2: no motivation. We would be apathetic. We wouldn't you know,
43:22
Speaker 2: we'd just be sitting on the couch doing nothing. We
43:24
Speaker 2: need some level of stress. If we have too much,
43:26
Speaker 2: then that's problematic too, right. But if everyone's at like
43:30
Speaker 2: a level in general of stress, but you sit higher
43:34
Speaker 2: than that, I'm doing stuff with my hands that nobody
43:36
Speaker 2: can see. But if you sit higher than that, whenever
43:39
Speaker 2: something happens and you have a spike of anxiety or
43:44
Speaker 2: stress or fear, you're at a higher level. So you're
43:46
Speaker 2: going to hit that panic line or that anger line,
43:49
Speaker 2: or that distress line much more easily than someone who's
43:54
Speaker 2: at a lower level. So, like, one of the things
43:57
Speaker 2: that I think can be helpful is like how do
43:59
Speaker 2: you get people from this higher level of stress down
44:03
Speaker 2: to like the more average level. And like you know,
44:08
Speaker 2: for instance, progressive muscle relaxation is often a really helpful
44:12
Speaker 2: thing for people to try to get their overall levels
44:18
Speaker 2: of stress down and so they're not too vulnerable to
44:22
Speaker 2: those sorry.
44:24
Speaker 1: I think also when you've been skiing in those metaphoric plows,
44:29
Speaker 1: you know, those those channels where you're skiing down a
44:32
Speaker 1: particular route and over time it's gone from grooves in
44:36
Speaker 1: the snow to trenches in the snow, and now you're
44:39
Speaker 1: you know that the walls are up around your ears,
44:42
Speaker 1: but you're still in the same trench that's deeper and deeper.
44:45
Speaker 1: As you said, you can't see the others. It's very
44:49
Speaker 1: hard after thirty years or twenty years, or however many
44:52
Speaker 1: years of skiing in that trench to extract yourself from
44:55
Speaker 1: it easily or quickly. And so there's that on top
44:59
Speaker 1: of it. Hey, I want to pull I want to
45:02
Speaker 1: pull a pin in this for the moment and just
45:04
Speaker 1: go to because we've got five to ten minutes left.
45:10
Speaker 1: I want to talk about functional anxiety. Let's look through
45:16
Speaker 1: a more positive lens. How can anxiety be a servant
45:22
Speaker 1: not a master? If that's possible, how can we use
45:26
Speaker 1: it for our benefit? Like we've spoken about the comms
45:30
Speaker 1: and the challenges. What are the pros if any.
45:35
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, first, it's like under like, I think
45:38
Speaker 2: we have a tendency to hate, like any kind of
45:46
Speaker 2: distress or discomfort. Right, we don't like it, and anxiety
45:50
Speaker 2: doesn't feel good, but it doesn't mean that it is
45:52
Speaker 2: that it's bad. And so the first thing is just
45:56
Speaker 2: to understand that the whole range and sweet of emotions,
46:01
Speaker 2: whether it's whether it's anxiety or sadness, or disappointment or
46:06
Speaker 2: even anger, frustration, all sort of function. If we can
46:10
Speaker 2: start from that point and say like, okay, I'm feeling this,
46:15
Speaker 2: what is the function of this and the function of
46:19
Speaker 2: all emotions are to give us information, right to sometimes
46:25
Speaker 2: it's to tell other people something and to motivate us
46:30
Speaker 2: to do something. So if you think about anxiety, anxiety
46:35
Speaker 2: is there to tell us that there might there may
46:37
Speaker 2: be a threat or the problem on the horizon. And
46:42
Speaker 2: if it's functioning well, it's accurately signaled a threat, right,
46:46
Speaker 2: there's something worries.
46:48
Speaker 1: It's kind of an ely warning system.
46:50
Speaker 2: That's what it is. That's exactly what it is. So
46:53
Speaker 2: if it's functioning well, it's warning you off something that's real,
46:56
Speaker 2: and it's activating your body to deal with that in
46:59
Speaker 2: a functional, healthy, health, healthful way, yes, and motivating you
47:05
Speaker 2: to do something about it. So let's say you know,
47:08
Speaker 2: if you are walking in the woods and you see
47:11
Speaker 2: a snake, or you know that there's going to be snakes,
47:15
Speaker 2: so you're like, you know, you're cautious, and then you
47:18
Speaker 2: see one and they're like, oh, there's a snake, and
47:21
Speaker 2: anxiety kicks in and it it activates the freeze response,
47:25
Speaker 2: and you just stand and you wait for the snake
47:28
Speaker 2: to pass and it goes and then you continue on
47:31
Speaker 2: your way. That's functional, that's what it's supposed to do.
47:34
Speaker 2: It didn't feel good. I didn't like the anxiety. I
47:37
Speaker 2: felt scared when I saw the snake. But my body
47:40
Speaker 2: and my responses were exactly what they needed to be.
47:44
Speaker 2: That's functional.
47:45
Speaker 1: My body is not going into that bush. My buddy's
47:49
Speaker 1: hutting the fuck out of that bush.
47:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean avoidances. Avoidance is something to avoid most
47:57
Speaker 2: of the time. Avoidance.
48:00
Speaker 1: That's an avoid avoidance, avoid.
48:02
Speaker 2: Avoidance, yes, because that can make a anxiety bigger.
48:08
Speaker 1: Yes, But you're talking about when you say avoid avoidance,
48:12
Speaker 1: you're talking about don't avoid things that you shouldn't avoid.
48:17
Speaker 1: There are some things we should avoid, right, Let's avoid
48:20
Speaker 1: taking drugs, Let's avoid playing near the edge of the cliff.
48:24
Speaker 1: Let's you know. But you're talking about things that we
48:26
Speaker 1: should probably lean into, not away from.
48:28
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, se if you used going, you know, presentations
48:33
Speaker 2: are going to work in something's anxiety provoking. Avoiding that
48:36
Speaker 2: is not going to be a functional response. But if
48:40
Speaker 2: anxiety is helping you protect yourself, helping you to plan,
48:44
Speaker 2: helping you to problem solve, helping you to prepare, then
48:48
Speaker 2: it's working.
48:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. That's interesting that you say that. For me,
48:52
Speaker 1: I don't have overwhelming fear or even fear. Maybe I
48:56
Speaker 1: have a modicum of fear. There's a word that doesn't
48:59
Speaker 1: get used to much, but I have low level anxiety
49:04
Speaker 1: with pretty much every presentation. I mean, like a one
49:07
Speaker 1: or a two, but I can feel I don't feel
49:11
Speaker 1: exactly like I did an hour ago. It's part of
49:14
Speaker 1: its excitement, but a little bit of it is fear
49:19
Speaker 1: slash anxiety, and it kind of for me, it works
49:24
Speaker 1: as you are suggesting. It works positively because it makes
49:28
Speaker 1: me more present, more focused, more on task, but not
49:36
Speaker 1: in any to any level of overwhelm. So then when
49:39
Speaker 1: I get introduced and I walk out, I think I'm
49:43
Speaker 1: better when there's a little bit of fear, like not
49:45
Speaker 1: crippling fear, but a little bit of fear, because one
49:49
Speaker 1: it helps me get really present, but two it keeps
49:54
Speaker 1: me This sounds weird, but it keeps me grateful. Like
49:57
Speaker 1: I've done so many presentations, I could take it for granted,
50:02
Speaker 1: I'm always aware that this could be the last one
50:05
Speaker 1: I ever do, which I hope.
50:07
Speaker 2: It's not good something you really care about, so it's
50:10
Speaker 2: like a sign that you care.
50:12
Speaker 1: I think doing my job like I never take my
50:15
Speaker 1: job or my life, on my lifestyle, on my situation ever.
50:19
Speaker 1: For granted, maybe I do. I don't think I do,
50:22
Speaker 1: like I'm overwhelmingly grateful like this, like we've got sponsors,
50:28
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you. You're brilliant. Tip's great to work
50:33
Speaker 1: with and also is very clever in her own ways
50:36
Speaker 1: and has great stories, and not that she's really featuring
50:39
Speaker 1: in this, but I'm like, this is I've fucking found
50:43
Speaker 1: a hack, Like I get paid to do shit that
50:47
Speaker 1: doesn't at all feel like work. Even when I'm on
50:50
Speaker 1: stage talking, I want to be there. This is not
50:54
Speaker 1: something I'm enduring to make money, right, you know? This
50:58
Speaker 1: is like I'm fucking I tricked everyone, Like I'm the
51:04
Speaker 1: biggest trickster of all time. I'm up here getting paid
51:07
Speaker 1: to do this, and if I wasn't on stage doing it,
51:10
Speaker 1: I'd be talking to somebody at the cafe about it,
51:13
Speaker 1: like I'm you know, this is not when I'm not
51:18
Speaker 1: talking about the stuff, you know, human behavior broadly speaking,
51:22
Speaker 1: I'm listening to something about it, I'm writing posts about it,
51:26
Speaker 1: I'm having conversations about it. Of course I talk about
51:28
Speaker 1: other things as well, But but yeah, before we wind
51:31
Speaker 1: up just speaking of the boxer in the corner, did
51:35
Speaker 1: anything come up for you, Tiff, like, any thoughts or
51:38
Speaker 1: any questions or any ideas or did you relate to
51:42
Speaker 1: any of that.
51:43
Speaker 3: I always think about Lily and the impact of excitement
51:48
Speaker 3: on that same stress system. And I'm almost going to interject,
51:52
Speaker 3: but I didn't want to interrupt your flow. Do you
51:55
Speaker 3: have any thoughts on that?
51:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's often like that, you know, people
51:59
Speaker 2: say it's two sizes the same coin. It's like a
52:03
Speaker 2: it's how you frame it that can make a difference.
52:06
Speaker 2: But also I think it's also really helpful to normalize distress,
52:12
Speaker 2: you know, even if it's mild distress, even if it's labeled,
52:15
Speaker 2: you know, even if it's anxiety or whatever kind of distress,
52:18
Speaker 2: it is like, it's okay to feel that. I think
52:21
Speaker 2: if people can validate themselves be like, yeah, it's completely
52:25
Speaker 2: like for you, like completely normal to feel like this
52:27
Speaker 2: before presentation makes makes perfect sense. It's reasonable for me
52:32
Speaker 2: to feel this way. I think that that can be
52:35
Speaker 2: just a really helpful way of managing anxiety and not judging,
52:40
Speaker 2: not judging it, not judging yourself, that just on its
52:44
Speaker 2: own can reduce the impact of it.
52:48
Speaker 1: Love ITTT. I wanted to tell you both something funny,
52:51
Speaker 1: which I do about four times a day. I don't
52:53
Speaker 1: know if you do this so literally. We had five
52:56
Speaker 1: minutes between the last recording and this one with you,
53:01
Speaker 1: and I needed to drink and anyway, I went downstairs.
53:03
Speaker 1: I got downstairs, washed a few dishes that were from
53:06
Speaker 1: my yogurt and fruit that I had. I didn't have
53:09
Speaker 1: a pie today, Tiff and I thought about it, and anyway,
53:15
Speaker 1: filled up my drink bottle, did a couple of other things,
53:18
Speaker 1: and then I was preoccupied with what you and I
53:21
Speaker 1: are going to talk about. And my drink bottle was
53:23
Speaker 1: on the bench downstairs. That's the reason I went down
53:27
Speaker 1: And don't even ask me why. I picked up the
53:30
Speaker 1: tea towel next to the drink bottle and walked upstairs,
53:34
Speaker 1: sat down, sat down here, put my tea towel on
53:37
Speaker 1: the fucking desk and went, what is like one? Why
53:43
Speaker 1: did I pick that up too? Why did I bring
53:45
Speaker 1: it upstairs? And three? Why did I put it on
53:47
Speaker 1: the bench. I was trying to figure out why I
53:49
Speaker 1: went down there. I'm like, oh, you fuck an idiot,
53:52
Speaker 1: you drink. So then I had to return the teatowl
53:55
Speaker 1: to its rightful place, And I'm like, what is that?
54:00
Speaker 1: Is that called the doorway effect? Where you go to
54:02
Speaker 1: a room to do something and you're thinking so much
54:05
Speaker 1: about shit on the way. Then you get to the
54:08
Speaker 1: room and your mind is now trapped in or not,
54:11
Speaker 1: it is focused on this other thing, like three thoughts
54:15
Speaker 1: after the original thought, go get you a drink? So
54:19
Speaker 1: do you ever do that? Do you walk into a
54:21
Speaker 1: room and go why the fuck am I here?
54:23
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it's called getting old.
54:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been ever.
54:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does happen to me a lot. And I've
54:32
Speaker 2: done like almost the exact same thing that you've done.
54:35
Speaker 2: I've gone, you know, like so many times, like gone
54:38
Speaker 2: to go get something and then walked back to where
54:40
Speaker 2: I was because I cannot remember what I wanted to
54:42
Speaker 2: get in the first life. And then I'll sit down
54:44
Speaker 2: and then I'll be like, oh, that's what it was,
54:46
Speaker 2: and then I'll have to go get up and go
54:48
Speaker 2: do it. I think part of that, you know, is
54:51
Speaker 2: just not being mindful. Like yeah, like you said, you're
54:54
Speaker 2: thinking about too many things at once and you've lost
54:58
Speaker 2: track of what your main goal is.
55:00
Speaker 1: Do you do that?
55:01
Speaker 3: Cook all the more of them than I don't do it.
55:04
Speaker 3: I spent ten minutes yesterday looking for the keys that
55:07
Speaker 3: I had put in my bra I got up, picked
55:12
Speaker 3: them up, put them in a safe spot, did something,
55:15
Speaker 3: and then spent ten minutes looking for them.
55:17
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Yeah.
55:19
Speaker 1: I've spent minutes looking for the glasses that are on
55:21
Speaker 1: top of my head.
55:23
Speaker 2: Yeah.
55:26
Speaker 1: And I remember this because I wrote a post about it.
55:29
Speaker 1: The first time I got in the shower with my
55:31
Speaker 1: glasses on, I was fifty seven. I'm like, I'm fucked.
55:35
Speaker 1: This is the beginning of the end. And I didn't
55:38
Speaker 1: have on top of my head. I had them on
55:40
Speaker 1: my eyes. Like, and I get in there, I'm like,
55:44
Speaker 1: fucking fucking steamy in here. What's going on?
55:49
Speaker 2: That's very h oh god.
55:52
Speaker 1: Anyway, we just do what we can. Doctor Lillian, You're amazing.
55:55
Speaker 1: Tell people how they can connect with you or I
56:00
Speaker 1: know you're doing some exciting things. I don't know how
56:02
Speaker 1: much of that you can share, But where would you
56:04
Speaker 1: like people to see you or connect with you.
56:07
Speaker 2: Well, since we've been talking about anxiety today, I would
56:10
Speaker 2: suggest going to contain your brain dot com and that
56:15
Speaker 2: is a source of information mainly on worry but also
56:19
Speaker 2: anxiety and also a place you can download an app
56:23
Speaker 2: for free that will help you reduce worry and solve
56:26
Speaker 2: your problems more effectively. So maybe that's the best place
56:30
Speaker 2: this time, contain your brain.
56:31
Speaker 1: Perfect, yeah, perfect, Well, thank you, We appreciate you. Enjoy
56:36
Speaker 1: your We're recording this Thursday before Easter. Are you a
56:41
Speaker 1: chocolate person?
56:42
Speaker 2: Yes? I have chocolate every single day.
56:44
Speaker 1: Oh wow, you're you and Tifa Kindred Spirits.
56:48
Speaker 2: Yeah wow wow, Yeah, guilt free. I don't feel guilty
56:53
Speaker 2: about it.
56:53
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to up my pie intake. Have
56:58
Speaker 1: you had any chocolate today?
56:59
Speaker 3: Cook, Yeah, of course I have.
57:01
Speaker 1: Well, if you could only back to our original question,
57:05
Speaker 1: then we'll wind up. If you could only have one
57:07
Speaker 1: type of chocolate for the rest of your.
57:09
Speaker 3: Life, tiff witty kids, witty kids playing milk?
57:14
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, Lillian, I'll say lint.
57:21
Speaker 1: Really is that because it's fancy or do you really think.
57:25
Speaker 2: I really really like it? So if I'm going to
57:27
Speaker 2: like really. I'm always like, if I'm going to eat
57:30
Speaker 2: junk food, it's going to be the good stuff. It's
57:32
Speaker 2: the stuff that I really like. So yeah, I do
57:35
Speaker 2: really like Lynch chocolate. I like one particular one. It's
57:38
Speaker 2: a dark chocolate almond one. It's really good.
57:42
Speaker 1: My dad, growing up, God bless Ron, he used to
57:46
Speaker 1: eat rum and raisin, so it's like dark chocolate and
57:50
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's got actual rum in it
57:51
Speaker 1: and raisins.
57:52
Speaker 2: That's my nightmare.
57:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the twelve year old fat kid fucking hode
57:57
Speaker 1: into that at about one animal in the the cover
58:00
Speaker 1: of darkness, like an elite covert operative, just fucking stealing
58:04
Speaker 1: rations for the bedroom.
58:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to store stuff in my bedroom too,
58:08
Speaker 2: because my brothers used to eat everything. So I'm like,
58:10
Speaker 2: I'm not letting you eat all the cookies. I'm going
58:12
Speaker 2: to coming to buy them and put them in my room.
58:15
Speaker 1: Good idea. What were you going to say too?
58:18
Speaker 3: I was going to tell Lillian, I've a good friend
58:20
Speaker 3: that curates the top two percent of chocolate from around
58:23
Speaker 3: the world. And because you mentioned Mexican before, she does
58:27
Speaker 3: a tequila and chocolate caring evening. It's amazing. She held
58:32
Speaker 3: the last one at Radio Mexico.
58:34
Speaker 2: Oh wow, you're going to have to send me that
58:36
Speaker 2: in for yes, please, I will. That sounds great.
58:40
Speaker 1: Wow great.
58:41
Speaker 2: Do you not eat chocolate at all?
58:44
Speaker 1: Not really? Ah, okay, that's not true. This is people
58:48
Speaker 1: are going to laugh because this is embarrassing. I have
58:50
Speaker 1: protein bars that have got chocolate on. Yeah.
58:53
Speaker 2: Count yes, it does.
58:55
Speaker 1: It counts okay, yeah, but not many like I used
58:58
Speaker 1: to eat protein bars daily. Turns out they're not as
59:01
Speaker 1: great as we think everyone. I might expand on that.
59:04
Speaker 1: You know, they're not terrible, but they're not really highly nutritious.
59:08
Speaker 1: So oh well, I'll tell you what is a good
59:11
Speaker 1: source of protein. A googie egg there you go, coming up. Yeah,
59:17
Speaker 1: scrambled eggs and a little bit of ham, a little
59:20
Speaker 1: bit tomato, a little bit of onion, no toast. Oh
59:23
Speaker 1: fuck yeah, come on.
59:25
Speaker 2: Now, we're going to do Easter eggs this weekend, not scrambled.
59:30
Speaker 1: Good to chat to you both. We'll say goodbye US
59:32
Speaker 1: three off air, but for the minute, Lilian, thank you, TIF,
59:35
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you.
59:37
Speaker 2: See your leader