Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jason Thompson about his choice of Evil of the Daleks (2/7)

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Talks to Jason Thompson about his choice of Evil of the Daleks (2/7) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:39
Welcome back to a life, the Doctor Who commentary podcast.
0:45
Hello Jason. Hello Joe.
0:50
I've got a question for you, you surprise me?
0:52
Joe, have you ever played trains before?
0:56
No, no, that's not my question. That's not my question.
0:58
Crucial question. Do you apologize?
1:01
I'm assuming the answer is yes. Should-should.
1:06
Molly Dawson have been a companion of Doctor Who's
1:09
because I She's absolutely wonderful.
1:13
She is yes, and that's a good question and I think you're not
1:19
actually alone in wondering that because Koya on Twitter at Jack
1:24
coiler 1996 says of the three main female characters in this
1:29
story. Why did the doctor take the
1:30
worst one on as a concession is exactly.
1:33
Oh my God, you're such a smart bloke.
1:36
Who drew smacks table or Molly, the Maid have been more
1:38
successful as companions. I don't think Ruth Max double
1:41
would have worked as a companion.
1:43
But I could see Molly working. And it's interesting because
1:47
they spend quite a bit of time, especially in episode, re with
1:52
Molly and Jamie talking and getting to spend time together.
1:56
So that would have been, it wouldn't have been as out there
1:59
as it seems and they're sort of, like, Siri flirts with him.
2:04
Doesn't she in this episode? He doesn't like God.
2:07
That's real chemistry here, like here and there's a bit in, I
2:11
don't know if it's three or four Yuma where she's being sort of
2:14
manhandled, she's so gonna be. So you're right, you know, I
2:19
think I cared more about Molly and that episode than I did in
2:22
Victoria. And yeah, I felt really sorry
2:25
for her that sequence so, yeah, she's great.
2:30
Victorian miss, it didn't have to well, so you maybe you think
2:34
Victoria does work though. You've big fan Victoria.
2:38
Victoria Waterfield has gone up in my estimation since I did a
2:43
recent chronological re-watch of the series because previously, I
2:51
had thought that she was not served well by a lot of the
2:55
stories. She tends to be the Damsel in
2:58
Distress and screams a lot cetera.
3:00
And of course, classically compounded by the fact that they
3:03
made her screaming. A key point of her Bible story.
3:09
But as I was watching it recently, I realized how strong
3:16
in many respects she is. I mean, I feel quite sorry for
3:19
her because she is the only companion really apart from
3:22
Tegan, in the classic series to leave because she's basically
3:25
traumatized by what she's been through with the doctor.
3:28
Yeah. So you kind of want to keep that
3:35
on in mind when you're looking at it, but the fact that she
3:39
screams when she finds herself in dangerous situations is kind
3:42
of understandable. And yet you've also got
3:44
sequences where. I mean, she's quite resourceful
3:49
in Fury from the deep picking the lock.
3:51
With the hat pin, or the hairpin and casually telling Jamie your
3:54
free Falls over and hurt himself.
3:55
And I told you not to bother doing that either she's quite
3:58
resourceful in Tomb of the Cybermen, which picks up that
4:00
gun and shoots the cybermat. Yeah.
4:02
I mean, I've seen a few people criticize her for immediately
4:06
running to get the man to help her out but she has no idea how
4:10
that Equipment Works. Know what else is she going to
4:13
do other than call for help and the only other person available
4:16
is acting Hopper and Callum. So that's fine.
4:19
But the sequence that really made me re-evaluate Victoria was
4:23
in enemy of the world. And it's that scene where Jamie
4:29
and Victoria have been captured and Donald Bruce comes in, with
4:34
salamander, as far as they know. And at this point, she has no
4:40
reason to think that she's going to get out of this alive.
4:43
She's been far as she knows she's been captured by a
4:46
ruthless evil dictator who's already killed other people to
4:50
deal with his to get his way and yet she stands up to him and is
4:56
really really firm with him and it's only when she finally goes
5:01
to actually hit him that the doctor emerges, because I don't
5:04
hit me, don't hit me. So yeah.
5:07
So And that's, that's she's pretty damn strong as a
5:11
character. I'll absolutely adore her scenes
5:14
with Griffin, the chef as well. You know?
5:16
Oh spuds. Yeah now.
5:18
Absolutely. Yeah.
5:19
They're fantastic. I mean, you know, the one story
5:22
that she's really served badly by is the ice Warriors.
5:24
Well, she is nothing more than an evil force.
5:27
Isn't she in? Yeah, she doesn't get a lot to
5:30
do. I think there's a fair from tell
5:34
Jamie off the perving over and saying, you want to, why don't
5:37
you wear one of those tiny skirts that going on in the web
5:41
of fear as well? Kind of understandably is a
5:43
pretty sort of scary story. Yeah, but like, you know, like,
5:48
in this story with Molly and Jamie me at night and they're
5:52
sort of creeping around the house Molly's laughing her head
5:55
off, she's having a great deal about a season of this.
6:00
We could have done, Well let's see, there's a lot of stuff
6:04
happening in episode 2 and what we promise, we'll talk about
6:07
what's on the screen a bit. But let's kind of see Molly in
6:11
action. I love her.
6:13
Let's do that or campus in. Okay.
6:16
Beginning episode 2 of the evil of the Daleks in 5 4, 3 2 1.
6:23
Go. If we go we go now which are you
6:29
watching joke as I'm watching the Original Episode.
6:33
Ah, I'm watching the animation, you know what, I can't be asked
6:36
to change, the discs are enough, they called a stick to it.
6:41
Mostly, although there's a shot, you know, where we go back in
6:46
time, and it goes into the house.
6:48
I swear those Drone footage, they've done that animation on
6:51
your own to know, he's been. I mean, yeah, it could well be,
6:54
it could well be, but I don't think the cameras would drown
6:57
the lawn and into the double doors like that in the real.
7:01
Thing is a slight Aditi. I just want to mention for
7:03
absolutely no reason other than the fact that it is an oddity on
7:06
this episode. This episode is the evil of the
7:09
Daleks episode 2, by David Whittaker, the order of the
7:13
captions is unusual because normally you get the story
7:16
title, the writer, and then the episode number.
7:19
In this one, it's either the Daleks episode 2 by David
7:22
Whittaker. I believe the continuity person
7:25
War II at after this episode possibly, although he might have
7:29
come back to work on the Androids of Torah.
7:30
Because the Same thing happens on all four episodes of the
7:32
Android zatara have these obscure details about episode
7:36
titles? Well, yeah, I dig into the
7:40
minutiae a bit for fun, not to Toby.
7:43
Hey, toke levels. We are Sons about to say you two
7:45
should do a podcast, but it would be the most detailed
7:49
Doctor Who podcast in history. I can, I couldn't rival his too
7:53
much information, podcast. It is absolutely superb.
7:58
This shot here for all the clocks.
8:02
Yeah. Like the camera work.
8:05
I just think it is it. Derek Martinez directs this
8:08
yeah, Derek Martinez. Directing this.
8:12
Yeah it's it's good. I liked this episode.
8:16
Obviously was my first Episode that I saw because I saw the I
8:23
said my introduction to this story was the missing episode
8:25
audio actually. It was episode 2 being on Daleks
8:27
the early years. And of course it's virtually
8:31
unrecognizable now because they cleaned it up so much, hissing
8:36
sibilant sounds that you got you.
8:39
Well sometimes it has a bit of atmosphere, you know, I remember
8:41
their mind robot when it was the very first copy.
8:44
I watched those sequences in there, the white void with all
8:47
that hissing going on what absolutely terrifying, they
8:50
cleaned it up and now I can see the edge of the set to say oh
8:56
yeah, the, but the cruel thing about Out gutter, think Doctor
9:00
Who the way we have is that, you know, you see episode, 2
9:04
yveltal-ex and episode 1 of the web of fear to in isolation,
9:12
Peerless practically Peerless pieces of Doctor Who and you
9:17
realize you can't watch the rest and yet you can go to your shelf
9:21
and pick up all five episodes of the dominators whenever you
9:23
want. I don't you go knocking the
9:26
dominators. I love the dominators not to
9:29
Fraser Gregory levels as I weird fetish in it, but also know he
9:35
did. Well, well, when you talk to me,
9:37
you know, I love the Dominate one of the things he said,
9:39
actually I'm going to I'm going to segue neatly from talking
9:41
about the Dominator to even the Daleks and I are your podcast
9:44
because I remember one of the things he said was that
9:47
dominators was a very strong story for Jamie and probably one
9:50
of his best because he's very proactive in it.
9:53
And I think this is Probably his best story and Coach.
9:58
Jamie, is finally we get a bit more of Jamie because obviously
10:02
previously, there was Ben and Polly as well, and Jamie was
10:05
kind of shoehorned in, because at the last minute, they decided
10:08
they wanted to keep him Buffy fun.
10:10
Some B /. Yeah.
10:12
Because back in those days I mean, this is only, it's still
10:17
amazing to me in some respects to think about it.
10:19
But we're watching episode 2 of evil of the Daleks.
10:23
And at this point, I don't think To be even recorded episode 6,
10:26
when this went out, it's hard to know.
10:28
They were, they were recording stories two or three weeks in
10:32
advance at this point. So, Jamie had been seen on
10:36
screen by the time they came to record episode 4 of the
10:39
dominators, which allowed them to put him back at the end, I
10:42
think. But do you think this?
10:47
Yeah, first time they realize just what a special character
10:51
they had because obviously polian been have only just just
10:54
left. He had a dominant role in The
10:57
Faceless ones, but this is where he starts to fly.
11:01
Absolutely, I mean, the faceless ones was fine because Ben and
11:06
Polly were victims of the same contract bakeries that saw do
11:10
disappear in the middle of the war machines.
11:12
Their contract came to an end at the end of episode, two of The
11:14
Faceless ones and wasn't renewed, unlike do.
11:18
Do they actually pre-filmed the goodbye scene for them so they
11:21
popped up again at the end of episode six just to say goodbye
11:23
on film. Jamie then, of course, was
11:26
mostly working on his own as a companion, talking with Sam
11:31
Briggs and everything, which, you know.
11:33
Would she have made a good companion?
11:35
I don't know. Possibly, she does enjoy.
11:38
It's a little bit of life into that story, not just put some
11:41
life into that store. And that's very true.
11:44
But then he gets captured by The Chameleons and then we see him
11:47
as the Director of The Chameleons.
11:49
So it's not Jamie for a long time.
11:52
But here, he's really, really come into his own and I like the
11:56
little touches any, like, He says, when he goes into the
12:04
antique shop, he says Doctor, you know, you told me outside,
12:07
it said genuine Victorian antiques.
12:10
It's like Jamie can't read at this point.
12:15
Or at least can't read that. Well, because the doctor told
12:18
him, it said, genuine Victorian, antiques are so remembering that
12:22
he's I think somewhere between evil of the Daleks and Tomb of
12:26
the Cybermen, they've just decided, okay, he's on board
12:29
with time travel and he gets stuff.
12:31
And I'd the odd thing explain to him, but pretty much, it's just
12:34
gonna take it all as yeah. Been there, done that.
12:37
Yeah. Well, Jamie is the proof that
12:41
in, you know, the production crew on the Daleks Master plan
12:46
was wrong. When they decided to kill off
12:49
Katarina because you couldn't have a companion from the Past.
12:52
Who would have to have everything explained to them all
12:55
the time? Well Victoria.
12:56
Yeah. And yet here we have Jamie from
12:59
1745. Who knows that he's in weird and
13:04
wonderful situations and does need things explaining to him
13:07
occasionally, but not to the point of stopping for every
13:10
little thing he, you know, takes things on board and learns, and
13:13
there's no reason why Katarina couldn't have done the same.
13:15
It's nigh, you know, but I think it was more.
13:19
I don't entirely realistic. I don't think someone from 1745
13:24
would just start taking this all for granted, but I don't know.
13:31
Kind of gets away with it. I don't think that's necessarily
13:36
true. I think that just because
13:38
somebody's from the past doesn't make them any less intelligent
13:41
or capable of handling these new situations than we would be, you
13:45
know they you know, 1745 1700 student.
13:49
That that's the year of Isaac Newton.
13:52
Well, I know the first people were, you know, like a leader as
13:57
well as exactly the same thing. Something that's used to a
13:59
certain lifestyle that's suddenly exposed to all of these
14:02
things that completely out of our worldview.
14:04
But she's smart enough to sort of figure it out, figure it out,
14:08
and they deal with it yet. But I do, I do feel quite sorry
14:13
for mr. Kenneth Perry.
14:16
In here because he's now been left.
14:19
We will be shortly left carrying the can cause it's all a lie.
14:23
There's a dead body in the shop. He works in his boss is nowhere
14:27
to be found and these two people that he said were with him are
14:31
not in evidence either. So that's he's a great example
14:37
for you know of how well cast this story is because it's kind
14:40
of a that you so B par character, but he plays it with
14:44
the source sophisticated camp. Doesn't a that's very well.
14:47
He makes it very memorable. Yeah.
14:49
Absolutely. What is this?
14:51
Like he's like oh should we do yours or mine?
14:53
And he's got his hand up. I put he's great.
14:58
He is the doctor being detective Again by counting out the paces
15:01
of the realizing the hallway goes further Beyond the Wall.
15:04
So there must be another room behind the bookcase or whatever.
15:06
So there has been clues that Edward was filled is a man out
15:11
of time but I don't think anybody would have predicted
15:14
after their guests. There was suddenly wake up.
15:18
You know what year early and eighty when they're in 1966 now
15:22
and they end up in 1866. So yeah, exactly, 100 years and
15:25
to do that like three new series, what's another?
15:30
Oh no. Hang on.
15:31
Wait a minute. It does do a lot.
15:32
I'm Warren, I was about to say when is between scenes where
15:35
suddenly in the past, and then when the present actually, no,
15:38
let's the show does that alone. Yeah, Now where did they get the
15:44
pictures of the doctor and Jamie from that's another weird or you
15:48
secretly was able just going to gas them and take him because
15:51
they just gassed him at the airport has lured them into
15:55
everything. So yeah.
15:57
And again, or could they just Gaston by having the Tardis
16:00
arrived in 1866? And just having them kidnapped
16:03
right away, that you're the machines has faded away and
16:07
remember that time machine thing for the next, you know, three
16:12
episodes or four episodes because it will turn up later.
16:15
But by that time we've forgotten existed all here on the
16:19
animation. Here's that shot where we go
16:23
across the lawn, over the trees Through the Windows.
16:27
It's I'm watching this on the big screen at the BFI,
16:30
absolutely better. How is that?
16:35
How is that? How is established on the live
16:37
action? When I can't remember, we just
16:40
start inside and it's blurred and it comes into focus on the
16:44
doors that lead out. So we don't go outside in in
16:47
episode 2 at all. Is Molly.
16:49
Here she is. I like so, all you did have a
16:53
party last night, didn't you? Mystery.
16:57
We've got what the hell's going on.
17:02
She's terrific and then we introduced to the oh no.
17:05
Not water down there. Mr. Max level where suddenly it
17:09
out Twisted version of Downton Abbey, all of a sudden.
17:11
Yeah. It's all very odd.
17:16
It's kind of the the story has suddenly veered off in the shop
17:19
change of Direction because we've gone from contemporary to.
17:22
Yeah, as you say a Downton Abbey's, like obviously, you've
17:27
been watching the new episode of the sort of the last 10 minutes
17:31
and just sort of how brilliantly is executed often.
17:36
That's what carries are probably a lot of episode 1 as well, you
17:38
know, but it just looks so good style over substance works
17:44
wonders do. It makes the weather That best
17:46
facial hair in Doctor, Who always an odd character, isn't
17:50
it? I mean, I do like him a lot.
17:53
I what I want, I tell you what, I do want to say about this is
17:55
this is absolutely stunning piece of casting Maria scoring
18:01
as Theodore Max table Maria scoring at this point was, I
18:06
mean, he was a well-known film and TV star for the last 30 odd
18:10
years. At this point, he was one of the
18:13
founding members of equity. He is the president of equity on
18:17
three separate occasions from the 1950s to the 1980s when
18:23
1960s 1980. He wasn't at this point, the
18:26
president of equity, but he'd been.
18:28
In the movies, he was on a Nazi Hit List during the war.
18:31
Why? Because he was employed by the
18:35
BBC for propaganda broadcasts to Germany, to counter the whole
18:40
Lord Hall thing, that Germany was doing to us here.
18:45
He he broadcast under an assumed name.
18:47
I come in bought it was now because obviously Marius Goring
18:51
and Hermann Goering are sound similar enough that he didn't
18:55
want the association. But yeah because of that he was
18:58
on a Nazi Hit List during the war.
19:00
So you know, this is this is really really amazing casting
19:06
for Doctor Who. I mean everyone talks about J&T
19:09
and his stunt casting in the 1980s and casting well-known
19:13
media personalities and In else. But this is Doctor Who casting a
19:17
movie star, right? In a tee time.
19:20
Drama about Daleks in an ancient house, you know?
19:23
It's I'll tell you what. He's got that eccentric, nature
19:29
down, pat it's perfect in the role.
19:32
Oh brilliant. Yeah, sometimes wonder about how
19:34
he's written his motivations because he's a evil bugger in
19:38
it. So it turns out that he is.
19:40
Yeah, here he just seemed to be eccentric.
19:42
Oh, and here's Victoria. Yep.
19:48
Yes, eating feeding the flying pests were very complimentary
19:52
about Victoria and I oh I think she does.
19:56
I think she's done very well in this story to in her
19:58
introduction. I'll I always thought that this
20:02
is totally unrelated to Victoria.
20:04
I always thought, even when I first watched it, there was
20:06
something weird about the Dalek in this scene.
20:11
Because it looks a bit cheap compared to the other ones.
20:13
There's something weird about the way, the shoulders look, the
20:16
way the arms and very very rigid indeed and everything else and
20:20
it hasn't lost its then because on the animation looks
20:23
absolutely fabulous. Yeah.
20:25
On the animation it's an ordinary dark.
20:26
Although this one does turn up later on but it wasn't until a
20:29
long time later that I noticed, this is actually a narrow Dalek
20:35
Known as the Wilke Dalek. It's got a very narrow skirt and
20:39
the back panel only has one row of hemispheres on it, instead of
20:43
the old camera just got into shot with, Have You Been
20:45
Watching Terry Nation, Army videos.
20:49
I have but I only found out about this one there.
20:52
But yeah, it's but apparently this one was made so that it
20:55
could get through the doors in the house when they went on
20:57
location. Yeah.
21:00
Because Daleks and doors are problematic at times.
21:04
I remember vividly going to a Doctor Who convention in a hotel
21:07
and I saw three people with the Dalek standing at a lift door,
21:11
looking puzzled because the skirt section was too wide, and
21:14
I had to dismantle it to get it up to the convention.
21:18
Dalek escape room in London, just is very weekend, right?
21:21
And instantly, I did die. I didn't actually get out in an
21:24
apple. I'm just all it was stuck in the
21:27
corner of the room, right? And it was coming alive, so I
21:30
had to start moving, and yeah, there was enough space for it to
21:33
move. It was having terrible trouble.
21:36
All this set their laboratory set under piano score, as we're
21:42
introduced to it. Gorgeous.
21:44
It is although I you know as as someone with a scientific
21:48
background, I would like to know what attentively to the extreme
21:55
unlikelihood of this all being left with bubbling liquids and
21:59
everything else. It's the height of
22:01
irresponsibility to leave anything like that.
22:03
Unattended. So and what the hell's it for is
22:11
doing? He tells us all about a story
22:14
about me. King.
22:14
A cabinet full of mirrors for time travel.
22:17
Was that what what the bubbling glass?
22:21
That's you don't, they're doing is creating a sort of Sheen that
22:24
goes on the mirror, allows them to project light and it goes
22:27
through time. No, it just looks good.
22:30
That's what style over substance style over substance.
22:34
Absolutely. Think about it.
22:36
All right. Keep saying that to each other.
22:39
As we watch this story because I'll tell you what the idea.
22:44
Idea of the Daleks skirting around this Victorian house that
22:49
is enchanting and some of those Telly snaps.
22:52
So available of lot, high angle, shots of them gone along the
22:56
corridors and things. Oh yeah, jeez.
22:59
I would love to see that. Yeah, I would love to get some
23:03
of this stuff back the yeah. I mean ignore this explanation
23:09
of time travel, that Max tubule is talking about because it's a
23:11
load of bobbins. Well, it's clearly shit and I'll
23:14
do me. But it's basically it's a magic
23:17
cabinet. Yes I know I did.
23:20
It's magic. It's all Steven Moffat.
23:22
Does have dogs here, isn't it? It is absolutely.
23:24
But imagine if we didn't know I mean imagine if this hadn't come
23:28
along as the classic Doctor Who think of calling a story, The
23:32
something of the Daleks and having a Dalek pop up at the end
23:36
of episode one because really there's no need for us to have
23:38
seen that. Dalek at the end of episode 1.
23:40
Imagine if this scene as the doctor is slowly piecing
23:44
together, What they're telling you.
23:46
Was the first we knew the Daleks were in it because what an
23:50
entrance that Dalek is going to make it well and is almost shot
23:53
as if that's the first time we've seen it.
23:55
I know it's the first time. Yeah.
23:57
The Dalek, but the look on troughton's face.
24:00
Yeah. It's just putting together, the
24:05
mystery of these, these creatures, the the mention of
24:08
static electricity caught his ear which of course we'd had in
24:11
power of the Daleks. They had a static.
24:13
Made a lot about static electricity in there.
24:17
I think, I think this is such a, the whole thing, such a
24:21
romanticized idea, isn't it? Yeah, definitely.
24:26
And here we ever a tight shot us if the doctor is trying to
24:29
figure out what these creatures are and it's like, oh, they Knew
24:32
about me. Yeah, God I'm just I'm just I
24:36
want to say I'm sorry. I just want to say this because
24:38
I love it. I love how trout is unafraid to
24:43
be scared? What I mean?
24:50
That's pretty and yeah, the look on his face.
24:52
I mean, this is one of the things that I love about the,
24:54
the trout and dialects stories is the second doctor is scared
24:58
of the Daleks in a way that the first never was yeah.
25:04
No heart law was very much against the Daleks.
25:06
He really what we have to pit our with against them and defeat
25:09
them and he was angry with them. And, you know, they stopped at
25:12
the end of master plan with them is absolutely superb.
25:14
Here Fountain is terrified, he has a line at the end of when
25:19
the Dalek goes, where he goes, you know, what have you done
25:21
with your infernal meddling? And it but he's desperate,
25:25
whereas heart nor would have said that just angry, you know.
25:28
Yes, absolutely. And this is what I troughton is
25:32
such a good doc. He's my favorite.
25:33
Bye. By quite a way actually, is my
25:36
favorite doctor. I still maintain that.
25:39
I think it takes him a half that first season to find his feet.
25:43
Fully find his fears. The dogs are.
25:46
Yeah, I agree. But this is the point where it's
25:49
like a pair of comfy slippers. He knows what he's doing now.
25:53
He does and he's And this is also they, they toned down the
26:00
clowning which started the second doctor Zira.
26:04
And then later on it kind of came back in a bit, especially
26:08
if you think about sequences like him running from the
26:10
Cyberman shooting in The Invasion and clutching his bum
26:12
going fine, I'm coming up at the seats are deaf.
26:16
You remember? Yeah, I know, but here he is
26:21
absolutely straight. There isn't any clowning at all
26:24
and he is Absolutely, at his, I think he's at his Peak here.
26:30
He's been so sorry. This is crap, man.
26:32
Both of their Peak. Yeah.
26:34
I mean, they do they work brilliantly together.
26:38
Not least, because unusually for this, for this time, you know,
26:43
they have a blazing Rao at one point.
26:46
I love that scene so much. I think it's the only time they
26:50
ever fall out, isn't it? Yeah, I think so.
26:54
So if she goes Morley oh, so yeah, well sorry you're
27:00
watching. Jamie in the actual Episode by
27:03
sighs. It's hot as hell.
27:05
I'll be flirting with him and making him drinks as well.
27:09
Fair enough. You have heard that Jamie is
27:13
quite well favored in certain circles.
27:16
Oh, and he is Bridget Forsythe taxable.
27:21
Really have much of a role, did she know she doesn't but this is
27:26
one of her earlier acting roles Bridget for so she hadn't had
27:29
much but obviously she was later better known for being Thelma
27:34
and what happened to that, whatever happened to the likely
27:36
lads, And she's still going. She still hear her.
27:40
IMDb page has entries up to 20 1900 really on it.
27:45
She was in still open all hours with David Jason I think she's
27:51
impressive that. So I think this is one of the
27:55
best casts of a classic who oh it's super but yeah, I don't
28:00
think there's a, I don't think there's a Miss casting anywhere
28:05
in this story at all. What's that the smallest part?
28:09
What's the fellow that comes in at the end of this episode and
28:16
drags off? Jamie to the barn, what is no
28:18
Terror Toby Toby Some that the fellow who did the voice of the,
28:24
in the, in the terrahawks of the sergeant major.
28:28
Yeah, and he played this Argentinian, our fault, Mom
28:30
swings a Davis, his voice is so distinctive is he has such a
28:34
great voice. Yeah, but like, I feel like, I
28:38
feel like they've really, they've done the rounds to cast,
28:40
aside their like, right? We need the perfect actor for
28:42
the Palm. Yeah, I don't know if you ever
28:45
read the Derek Martinez interview that Doctor Who
28:50
magazine. Well, They said we knew this was
28:52
something special. We knew this script was good and
28:55
we were determined to make this as well as we possibly could.
28:58
And I think there's evidence though they've done an
29:02
absolutely superb job. I mean BBC even then was well
29:07
regarded for its costume dramas and period, dramas and quite
29:09
rightly. So I mean, look at the, look at
29:11
the sets, look at the way the sets address.
29:13
There's not, you know, they wasted no space.
29:16
Every Shelf has something on it, you know.
29:20
There are Paintings. Candlesticks, all sorts of
29:23
furniture desks even things that aren't really necessary for the
29:28
plot. It's all there as an
29:29
embellishment. To give you a sense of this is a
29:31
place that someone lives in, this is another odd Cliffhanger
29:36
coming up. Isn't it where the Daleks or
29:38
plot amongst themselves? So is a very, very odd.
29:42
Not if hang on, yeah. Yeah.
29:47
Yeah, the doctor will not allow me to run into danger without
29:49
telling him anything. Well, okay.
29:54
That's not quite what happens later though.
29:56
Is it let's be honest. And, of course, we're putting
30:00
the doctor in a position where he's away from the action
30:04
because, trousers gonna have a holiday, isn't it soon?
30:07
Yes, he will indeed have a holiday tree.
30:13
Filmed inserts. That they could pop into the
30:15
episode. So so we don't suspect that
30:20
which is the, the best performance that John Bailey
30:24
gave in Doctor, Who then this or Saison in the horns of 91.
30:30
Are you overlooking his performance as the chief insane
30:36
astronaut in the sensor rights part 6.
30:40
Or forgotten about no I didn't know that I could go on about
30:43
that. Yeah.
30:45
Oh I think it's ever water-filled.
30:48
That's that's his best cat. But he's brilliant.
30:51
You going, you feel the way he does it, you feel that he is a
30:56
man caught up in a situation that he has no control over but
31:02
His daughter is in danger. He's doing everything for
31:04
Victoria. Well what I said, max two balls
31:08
motivations are a bit muddy. As this goes along, we just
31:11
wants to turn metal into gold. So the very bizarre reason to do
31:15
all these terrible things water fills motivation is there up
31:18
front straightaway and you can buy into that character
31:21
immediately absolutely. Yeah, he's a concerned father
31:24
and he knows that he's in a terrible situation.
31:27
And he knows now as well because somebody has died because
31:29
Kennedy got shot. Yeah, he's getting as you go
31:34
through the story, you see him sink further and further into
31:38
the despair of the situation that he cannot extricate himself
31:41
from he has to keep going along with it.
31:45
Is this the first I suddenly the last is it the first instance of
31:49
as meeting a companions family member and them dying in the
31:55
first story, obviously happens. We volunteered Vanessa happens
31:58
in with Vash happens. With I think it is.
32:02
Yes, and in fact it's pretty, I think it's the first time we
32:07
meet a companions family at all. Is obviously well, apart from
32:12
Susan, whose grandfather is the doctor but yeah, we don't know
32:15
any more of a and Barbara's family Steve and Vicky was an
32:19
orphan. Stephen was marooned on
32:21
mechanist on his own Katerina Sarah.
32:25
It while serous I'll Brett by on and Sarah Kingdom.
32:28
Oh yeah, there you go. Well, dumb bizarrely, just turns
32:32
out. Oh by the way he's my brother.
32:34
Okay, fine anyway, let's go down some high Jinks now.
32:38
Just yeah. Let's go and have some Um,
32:40
hijinks with, a meddling monk. But, but, yeah, I think this is
32:43
probably the first time we properly get an idea of the
32:48
other companions family member and it's quite sad, really?
32:52
When you consider that, They bet they don't have any.
32:57
They barely have any on-screen time together and I can that be
33:01
in the cell in episode 7. I think thinking about
33:04
objectively, you know, her dad dies in her first story and she,
33:09
all right, she's traumatized so much she has to leave in her
33:14
last. I mean, that's a hell of a run.
33:15
Is it is? And, you know, you do, you do
33:18
feel for her? Because she does go through?
33:21
It's one of those rare occasions, most of the time in
33:24
stories like this. You can't. dwell on the
33:29
long-term impact that these things are going to have on
33:31
people because Lots of people get killed companions, get tied
33:38
up gassed hypnotized. Yes, beaten up and actually
33:43
happening. Because once Jason, I wouldn't
33:45
be going in that tireless again, you know?
33:47
And so this is going to have an effect.
33:50
And I think I mean for my money it's something I think the new
33:55
series dwells on too much, especially with the doctor, they
33:59
spend a lot of time with the doctor dealing with his it will
34:04
there. Sorry, their angst about what
34:06
they've done what they've been through, what they've convinced
34:10
other people to do in the name of right?
34:12
And things like that. And I think there is a space for
34:17
that but I think you can overdo it.
34:19
Yeah, that's what made series 11.
34:22
So refreshing when Jody came along.
34:24
I'm like yes we're done with all the man pain.
34:26
We're just gonna have some fun again.
34:28
Yeah, let's do that. And yeah, so I think that I
34:32
mean, I mean also mean that was one of the things that appealed
34:35
to me about Doctor Who, when I first came to it is that it
34:39
didn't spend it, you know, it tugged at the heartstrings
34:42
occasionally it made you laugh. It made you cry, but it didn't
34:45
go out of its way to be overly emotional about lots of things.
34:49
And that appealed to me, when I was a Moody angsty teenager.
34:55
I get that. But I think the fact that is
34:58
infrequent. So when you get an ending like
35:01
Victoria's or Cho grants or Sarah James, when those moments
35:06
here they really here because that's not the norm for the
35:09
show, you know, they really stand out.
35:11
I completely agree with you absolutely and you know, I love
35:18
The Christmas episodes. I love a regeneration story and
35:22
so on, but every single one has been in the modern era.
35:28
Well, apart from parting of the ways because that wasn't
35:30
supposed to be a regeneration story.
35:32
They only did that because Christopher Eccleston quit, but
35:36
End of Time, Time of the Doctor twice upon a time and now power
35:41
of the doctor as well. Every single one really comes at
35:45
you with the music and the tears, and the crying, and the
35:50
oh, isn't it? Terrible and old God, all the
35:52
emotion and everything else. That's a, we're trusted to be
35:55
moved, you know? Unless it's all dialled up to
35:58
11, the Regeneration of moves me, the most is planet of the
36:01
spiders and it's completely silent and he just dies on the
36:05
floor. I think sometimes the planet of
36:10
the spiders has a lot to answer for in that.
36:14
It gave the doctor, some moving last words and so quite a few
36:19
people seem to have decided that that's what we have to do.
36:22
Now we have to give the doctor moving last words and that
36:25
reached its absolute nadir or nadir depending on your point of
36:31
view in twice upon a time where the doctor just kept on
36:34
collapsing and then standing up there and another thing.
36:38
Oh, oh, don't forget trout and got it.
36:41
Right. You know, and so on crowd was
36:43
just go. No, no, no.
36:46
Yeah, I mean twice Upon a Time you could cut out everything
36:49
from. I suppose, one more life.
36:51
Won't kill anyone except me? Doctor, I let you go and that
36:55
would be fine. You don't need all that
36:57
staggering around And the Tardis.
37:00
Now thing about, never tell anyone your name don't eat.
37:03
Pears children know your name, I like Jody's again because she
37:06
just went. Whoa, if you're gonna bathe tag,
37:08
you're it. That's it.
37:10
Yes, it was so refreshing. Yeah, it was so sorry.
37:16
I'll be 2. Proto Jody Jesus.
37:18
After audience is switching off, but you approached her about the
37:22
way she left. So that's okay, here as well.
37:27
Well, And how did you find that? How did you I watching that?
37:30
You can actually watch that episode properly.
37:32
I really like it. When I first, when I first saw
37:38
it, I thought there weren't enough dialects in it but then I
37:40
was 13. So if more Daleks or Daleks,
37:45
what's all this, I don't know any doctor oracle's that have
37:48
dies and, you know, but no watching it back.
37:53
I mean, that seen in the laboratory, where the doctor
37:55
pieces together what they're telling him and that Dalek
37:57
emerges from the thing is just its peak Doctor Who that see.
38:02
And if that had been the first, we'd known the Daleks Were in
38:05
this story. That would have been so perfect.
38:09
You know, the doctor arrived, the doctrine Jamie arrived in
38:12
1866. They're exploring their house,
38:15
their gassed, they wake up. The Tardis has been nicked and
38:19
then they have that scene with Max tubule and water-filled
38:21
talking about creatures and time travel, when the event and then
38:24
suddenly the Dalek bursts out and go dark time.
38:28
I mean, that would have been perfect here.
38:31
We are doing your re your editing this into a new series
38:34
episode 04, condensing it down - probably if you took out all the
38:38
fluff. We could probably make this a to
38:40
park, you know? Possibly, I'm not sure there's
38:44
much fluff in it as some people contend but we have had some
38:50
comments on Twitter and some questions.
38:53
Let's do it. Spits all over.
38:56
J says did scare off copy his scheme of water filled but
39:01
improved on it by aging his antiques which well there are
39:07
similarities Bubba, Bubba, Bubba bomb.
39:12
Darren Litt roundels. Episode 2 is my most watched
39:17
most re-watched of any surviving episode from missing story.
39:20
It's just so perfect. We've got two time zones, every
39:24
aspect of the production, just shines, the animation.
39:27
Just can't do it justice. I didn't finish it as it was so
39:30
lacking in atmosphere. What did you think about the
39:32
animation? Did you find it?
39:33
Lacking an atmosphere. No, but I know what he say.
39:38
I don't think the animation will ever be a suitable substitute
39:41
for the real thing. Now, the thing about Darren
39:46
roundels is he is he pays particular Focus to Direction
39:51
and he's there on Twitter, and he will put up gifts and stills,
39:55
and scenes examining the direction.
40:01
He has a particular antipathy to Richard Martin.
40:07
We've got a nice guy so I can see why he would love this
40:10
because this is probably one of the most Polish directed Doctor
40:14
Who's it is very nicely directed.
40:17
Just just from that one episode. You can see the quality of the
40:20
direction, and the Telly snaps give you a hint of how it was
40:23
directed, as well as I love the Telly snaps.
40:25
It's like somebody somebody suggested in a recent commentary
40:30
that actually classic Doctor, Who taken as a whole.
40:33
It's all kind of cheap television.
40:35
And, you know, can you really tell one direct from another
40:40
school? What a load of cobblers.
40:41
Of course, you can tell one directly you're absolutely.
40:43
Only can tell as and I joined, I think it's more highlighted in
40:46
the 60s. Yeah, I think that is that is a
40:51
fair thing. When you compare the work of
40:55
Douglas Campfield Derek Martinez to Richard, Martin, Richard
40:59
Martin is one that Amazes me in some respects because when he's
41:03
on location and he's got huge Landscapes to play with his
41:07
direction is absolutely stunning.
41:08
I mean those shots in the Dalek invasion of Earth around
41:11
Trafalgar Square and work looking at up the steps of the
41:14
Daleks, the Dalek in the river. All absolutely gorgeous.
41:18
And when he's in a studio, he seems to forget that he's in a
41:20
studio. And there are certain angles
41:22
that you just don't do, especially when you're using
41:24
photo blow-ups of Daleks it shoots above the action.
41:27
In the most strangest way of an R1 looking at will go.
41:30
And watch, go watch the chase episode 2.
41:33
Yeah, I then go and watch the Daleks master plan episode 2 and
41:36
tell me. You can't tell the difference
41:38
between two directors. Well, exactly.
41:40
I mean, look at the web planet where he gets the actors right
41:44
up against the backdrop. So they're casting shadows and
41:46
then shoots from a high angle that makes it really obvious, a
41:50
painted backdrop, and a flat of photo blow up darling.
41:53
A supposed to be shot from certain angles so that you can't
41:56
tell what they are, and he shoots them from all kinds of
41:59
angles that give away what they are.
42:01
And you know, I hate this argument.
42:03
I'll, you know, he says it on one of the documentaries, we'd
42:06
have the time, we didn't have the money.
42:08
No. Because Douglas Canfield didn't
42:11
have the time or the money either but he had the skill.
42:14
Well, yeah, I mean remember what we were saying.
42:16
I remember the, the memos that I was reading and other the first
42:19
doctor handbook when we were doing it, you know, the last
42:22
minute rush, some of the sets not being ready because the
42:24
scripts are being Rewritten, loon, just can't see it.
42:27
And that none of that was translated to the screen.
42:30
Whereas, you know, The Dalek invasion of Earth has a
42:33
gorgeous, high angle, shot of Daleks at the saucer, but in the
42:38
background are these bloody photo blow up Daleks with a
42:41
Searchlight swinging around really obvious.
42:45
What they are? Is they are herbal, I am not a
42:49
professional director but even I know you don't shoot a flap that
42:52
way if you want it to be portraying an actual thing.
42:56
So I and I do think Martinez is I think With a story, he's
43:02
wrecked some very good. They've clearly save money for
43:06
this story. There is a, like, a vast array
43:09
of sets. There's location were, there's a
43:11
huge cost. No, they had some money's gone
43:15
into this. So money is definitely going to
43:18
this and it's all on screen as well.
43:19
So, yeah, that's what's great about this.
43:22
So, Walter Dunlop says troughton, Daleks are the best
43:26
Daleks scheming devious and the second doctor looks actively
43:29
terrified of the, which we just As said earlier on about Patrick
43:32
troughton, allowing himself to look scared, only McCoy and
43:38
Eccleston seem to manage that other than him.
43:41
And I think that's fair actually.
43:44
Yeah, I'd agree with that, as well.
43:46
I think that's very trick his assertion.
43:48
That trows Daleks, on the best Daleks is spot on.
43:52
I think David Whittaker rise to dialects in a far more
43:55
interesting way than Terry Nation does.
43:57
And then is Spooner if I'm honest and I think Think a lot
44:02
of the more interesting things I've been done with the Daleks
44:04
in later years, is people looking back to the stories and,
44:10
and cherry picking some of the best ideas from power and evil
44:14
of the Daleks. Oh absolutely.
44:18
I mean, everything, from subtle things to the most blatant, like
44:22
victory of the Daleks with it going, I am your soldier.
44:25
That's just lifted. Straight our power.
44:29
Walter Dunlop goes on to say, I've always thought that if you
44:32
ever you wanted the big Doctor Who film script here it is evil,
44:36
is the one and hard to disagree. I mean it is why it's got its
44:42
got a huge scale which is unusual in this era.
44:49
Yeah. And you know you'd have a
44:50
massive set piece at the end if you got a nice bit of money, you
44:53
know you could do this. Yeah action of the Dalek City
44:57
sort of Textile and, you know, like you said, don't think about
45:02
it, just enjoy. Enjoy the style over substance.
45:04
Well, that's most movies these days enjoy the ride.
45:07
I mean sometimes. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of
45:12
stuff in this. That doesn't make any sense but
45:14
it's done really well and there's a lot of Dr Who that's
45:17
like that. I mean the classic exactly is
45:21
days. Yeah, the classic example in the
45:24
series really is Deadly Assassin, part 3, which doesn't
45:26
Advance the plot one bit But his yeah, I mean, the two other
45:32
supporting characters, or the other supporting characters that
45:34
we see apart from the doctor and his unseen assailant in in The
45:39
Matrix, everyone we see in the actual time is either lying down
45:44
or sitting down spandrel, doesn't even get up to stay.
45:48
So that guy who comes to kill the doctor.
45:51
So they literally just lie down for a bit and carry that the
45:55
plot carry on without them but it's great.
45:58
Wait, but it's great. It's really deep.
46:02
So, yeah, this one is, is another stolen and I've got one
46:06
more from frasor Gregory. Go on, it's going to stir the
46:09
nest. Let's go, snog.
46:12
Marry push into a cupboard full of mirrors and static
46:15
electricity, Max table water-filled and Doctor Who Snug
46:19
Marion War. Push into a dog Mary push into a
46:25
cupboard full of mirrors and static electricity.
46:28
Oh, okay. Well I'll smoke or you know
46:30
what? Snugged up to huge.
46:31
You know why Patrick trout are multiple families?
46:34
He must be doing something right.
46:37
I would marry Edward Wars field because he seems like a very
46:40
Charming Man and I'll push Max tubal into those Hall of Mirrors
46:45
because honestly, I think of I'll turn my back on him.
46:48
I'll be in trouble. I think I would probably agree.
46:51
With that. Yeah, he's always stir, do snog,
46:54
marry avoid, you know, I was trying to lower this podcast, to
46:57
the lowest possible denominator this from the guy who had the
47:01
stop, it gift put up honestly. Honestly, I have to I have
47:05
threatened to bring Fraser Gregory in his stop.
47:08
Am into these podcast before. And now I've just I've lost all
47:11
faith in it Brazier. I've lost all faith in it.
47:14
Just doesn't seem genuine anymore.
47:17
I think the stop it Orbiter is broken, you know?
47:20
Just given up. Well, look, that was episode 2.
47:24
Where back into animation for you for episode 3, indeed?
47:29
We are. Should we do it?
47:31
Why not