Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / Tom Werman

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Tom Werman · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefts Podcast. My
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: guest today is record producer Tom Mormon. Know him from
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: his work with Cheap Trick, Ted Nugent, Twisted Sister Motley Crue.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Tom Good to have you, good to be here, wonderful,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: real honor. So what was the first record you ever produced? Well?
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I kind of co produced Ted Nugent, the Ted Nugent
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Ted Nugent Record with Stranglehold on it Um. I signed
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Ted and his manager actually owned his production contract, which
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: gave him the right to produce him. I wanted Pete
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Townsend to produce him and piece. Pete's attorney had a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: good laugh over that one. But anyway, I was forced
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: we Epic was forced to acce up this guy's role
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: as producer and I went into the studio to protect
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: my investment because it took me a long time and
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of tries to sign Ted Um. I had
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: offered three bands to Epic before that turned out to
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: be huge, but they passed UM. So so I went
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: into the studio and I started making a lot of suggestions, wait, wait, wait,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: let's slow down a little bit. What those of us
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: before he came back on epic. We just know him
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: from Journey to the Center of the Mind. What was
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Ted doing at the time, and why was he so
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: hard to sign? He wasn't hard to sign for me,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: but it was hard for me to get the company
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: to accept the signings that I brought them. Um. I
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: had a boss who was really bright and really nice,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: but knew very little about rock and roll. So um,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: he passed on Kiss, Leonard, Skinners, and Rush, which I
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: had brought to the label free and clear, and um,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: you know. The only other band I had signed in
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: the first six years at the label was Ario Speedwagon
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: and that was the first band I signed. Um. Anyway,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: so I finally got an opportunity to sign Ted. And
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: at this point I really needed a hit because I've
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: been at the label for six years and only signed
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: one band and one successful band, and um, you know,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: and our guys generally need to bat at least two
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: in order to keep their jobs. So I really wanted
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: to protect this investment. And I went into the studio
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: and I kind of horned in and just just one
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: question before of course, during most of the heyday, David
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Krebs Liber Crebs were the managers? Were they the ones
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: who had the production deal? Was this someone for them? Now?
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: They were just the managers? Um? Yeah, lou Futterman had
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the production deal. He owned Ted and he managed him.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: He uh, I guess sold man the management to to David. Um.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: David came out to Lansing, Michigan because Ted was opening
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: for Aerosmith. So so David came out to Arrows. David
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: was managing Aerosmith, and he came out and watched Ted
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: while I and my boss watched Ted because I invited
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: my boss to come out and see Ted because I'm okay,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: it makes a question. Who is your boss? Uh? Steve
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Popovitch at that time. Um, the former boss was Don Ellis,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: who had gone over to our c A and Steve
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Popovitch came up and he said, Worman, what what have
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: you been doing here for six years? And I said, well,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I tried to sign blah blah blah. And he said,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: is there any when you were interested in? Now? I said, well,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: actually Ted nugent Um. I didn't know much about Ted
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: at all, but um, you know his manager. Uh, this
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: this guy, Louke Fundaman nice man came in and said, hey,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Ted new did it is available? He played me a
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: little something, and I thought this was pretty good. So
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I went to Chicago to see Ted play in a
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: very half empty auditorium at Illinois Institute of Technology, and
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: he was superb. Now we didn't talk politics. I want
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: to make that very clear, very clear. The whole time
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I knew Ted, you know that we worked together, which
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: was five years. Um, we got along famously and the
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: subject of politics actually never came up because there was
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: nothing controversial back then. Um. So I enjoyed Ted. He
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: was appreciative. We worked very well together. A little bit slow. Okay,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: go back to the story. So you went in as
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: co producer and you were making suggestions continue from there. Well, um,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: you know, I actually didn't go in as co producer.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I went in as the label guy, you know, the
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: guy from the label D A and R Man who
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: was overseeing the project. And um, by the end, lou
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Futterman mixed the record. I wasn't for some reason, I
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: wasn't around for the home mix. I didn't like it.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: So I asked my boss could I have another five
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars to remix this record? And he agreed. I
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: went down to Atlanta to where we made the record,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and I remixed the record with the engineer and it
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: went platinum, and not necessarily because of my mix, but
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: it went nevertheless. And you know that means in the
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: record industry, Bang, you're a producer. You're beautiful, babe. So uh,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: you know that. I continued in the office for a
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: few months, and then the Cheap trick of Project came up,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: and and that was in color a little bit slower certainly. Uh,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: if you were an in house guy, which you were,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: did you get royalties on the records? Good question. We
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: didn't get a piece back then because it was our
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: job description. You know, you go out and you find
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: us acts. I did get um a nickel for for
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: every ten Newgent record we sold, and then I think
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: they've moved me up to twelve cents on um Cheap
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: trick Um. But this was a gift. There was no contract.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: There was no agreement between me and the label for
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: me to get a royalty. Somewhere in the mid nineties.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: It was a very big success right off the bad,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: huge debut album, and it made the A and R guy,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: you know, a millionaire instantly because they had instituted the
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: practice of cutting us in giving us a piece. Okay, Uh,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: so let's go to a cheap trick. So you who
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: did sign cheap trick? I did. But Jack Douglas called
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: me two recommend to request that I go see them,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: and uh, I love Jack Douglas. He had made Rocks,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: the Aerosmith album, which I thought was among the best ever,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: uh in terms of American rock and roll. So um,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I hopped on a plane, went right out to see
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: them in this little town in Illinois and we're from Rockford.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: They were from Rackford, and they were playing in a
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: strip mall in a club packed, and um, you know
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: they were they were amazing. They were really really amazing.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: So again I brought out my boss and we signed them,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: and Jack made their first record, which was really a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: great record, but not terribly commercial. Um, and I, you know,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I did the second record because Jack was busy with Aerosmith,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: and I, you know, I as as a staff producer
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: in the day of FM and a M. I felt
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: that it was my assignment to get bands on AM
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: radio and get them hit singles because you know, it's
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: sold a ton of albums. So um, I made a
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: more commercial record, which was in color, and and then
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I was I was irreversibly a producer because they Okay,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: let's let's stop with in Color. I believe in Color
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: is the best cheap trick record. The one that Jack
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Douglas made to start was darker. It had Mandicello, etcetera.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: You made in Color. You certainly made Heaven Tonight, which
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: no one ever talks about taking me back, which I love.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: But after that the band became heavier and from scuttle.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: But they may have not have been happy with your
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: let's just call it more commercial sound, but that was
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: their definitive statement. That's right. Well, look, you know several
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: bands have well they slap you on the back in
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: high five you when they're selling gazillions of records, and
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: twenty years later you sucked. Um. You didn't capture their sound.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: You were too lightweight. Again, I'm a pop guy. I
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: did not ask to be pigeonholed in metal or hard rock.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I enjoy it. I enjoy a lot of it. But
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I've had some disagreements in the press with
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: with Rick who said, you know why, he didn't know
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: anything about the piano on I want you to want me.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: That's that's just not true. I'm not going to get
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: into that. I shouldn't get into that now. But UM,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: I made hit singles. I tried to make hit singles.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: UM the bands. I I felt that if I got
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: them on the radio, UM, and then they would get
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: the attention of a large audience and then they could
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: do what they wanted. UM. So that's what it did. Okay,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: let's start with the in color. Let's go in depth.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: So what is the process. They've made their first record,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: they've gotten some notice, not commercially successful. How do you
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: so Jack is doing it? You tell the band you
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: want to produce it or how does it end up happening?
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: And do they immediately agree? Well, they asked me actually
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: to to to produce it. With the blessing of H.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Bruce Lundball, who was then the president of CBS Records. UM.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: I was actually in the process of preparing to produce
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Eddie Money's first album, UM and I had met with
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Eddie and San Francisco and we were getting ready to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: go when this whole cheap Trick needs a producer situation
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: came up and I met with Bruce and I said,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: you know, quite frankly, I would I would rather do
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: cheap Trick and he said, okay, I can fix it,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: and he ran interference for me with Bill Graham because
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Bill Graham wasn't happy about this. The producer switch. Uh,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: and that was it. We agreed they wanted to record
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: in l A. I had never been, but I was game,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: and uh. We went out to to to the record
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: plan in l A and and Sound City and we
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: made in color. I went out there and I interviewed
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: an engineer over the phone. I didn't really know anything
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: about recording in l A. Remind me who that engineer was,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Gary Litdinski. We made sixteen records together. And you met
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: him over the phone. Yeah, I met him over the phone.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I interviewed a few guys over the phone, and he
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: was He was definitely the most modest, the most the funniest. Anyway.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: He was a house engineer at the record plant, the
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: third Sweet Record Plant in l A, the Fable Record Plant,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: my home away from home, and it was, you know,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: we just had had a wonderful time and continued making
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: records for about five or six years. Okay, so let's
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: go back. Traditionally, the producer creates the budget. Need let's
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: just say if the beans from Illinois and you're living
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: in New York. Yeah, there's issues of hotel transportation, studio time.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: At your level of inexperience, how did you come up
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: with a budget? You know, I actually don't remember how
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: we arrived at a budget. Um, but you know we
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: were We all went to l A together. We stayed
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: at the Sunset Marquee, which was cheap at the time.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Amazing and um, you know we made a deal. Uh,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Gary booked the studios because I just you know, deferred
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: to him about that. You know, there are studios he wanted.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: There was a studio he wanted to track in, which
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was Sound City, and then we went back to the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: record plant, which he knew intimately two over dubbed and mix. Um,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: it wasn't it. You know, the budgets weren't really a
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: big problem then they weren't that big. Well, the question
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: would be if you wanted more money or spend more money,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: did the label push back? Well, it depended on what
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: they heard, you know, if it was developing into something
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: really good and you needed you needed to go over
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: budget like they do in films. Um, usually it was okay,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: it was your asked on the line. You know, so
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: you're in l A. They show up, what state there was?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Stay within color? What was the state of the material? Well,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: it was very It was pretty complete, and we had
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of songs to choose from, which is typical
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: for an album early in the band's career because they
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: spent ten years writing songs and then, you know, then
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: they have a hit record and they have to come
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: up with twelve more really good songs in three months.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So there was plenty of There was plenty of of
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: of material to choose from. And so did you rehearse her?
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: You just went reading the right in the studio? Well,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I I always um. I listened to their demos, and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I made notes and rearranged some things. It's you know,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: and and we we went into a rehearsal studio. Wait wait,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: wait what might you rear? What did you rearrange? What
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: level of rearrangement are we talking about? Well, you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: some typical would be let's um, let's cut the intro
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and half um change this UM, go to the ride
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: symbol instead of the high hat in the first verse.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: We'll add a B three oregon in in the chorus.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Let's do this harmony? You you arranged and and maybe
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: you double the length of the guitar solo and you
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: fade instead of having a cold ending anything that occurs
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: to you, you know, if you're a good producer. I
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: think arranging is the is the main part of the gig. Um.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: So I would make extensive notes and then we'd go
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: into a rehearsal studio with a boom box and we
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: would make a rough, um, you know, recordings in the
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: boom box of the changes we had made the new
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: version of the song. And uh we would then take
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: this little boom box cassette into the studio with us
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: so we could refer to it because it was a
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: new arrangement and maybe the band had been playing the
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: old arrangement for five years, day in and day out.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: So so we would use it as a model to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: what to what degree were the bands are open? Yeah? Well, um,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: quite a They were quite agreeable, most of them, some
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: cheap cheap trick had a lot of As you make
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: more and more albums, if you make a second album
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: or a third album with the band, they almost always
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: became more involved in you know, in in creative input. Um.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Some bands that I worked with really use the studio
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: as a as a party room and uh, recorded on
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: the side instead of instead of going to record to
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: make a record and partying on the side. But those
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: bands were distracted more and left much more up to me. Um,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the bands were usually what we would do. What I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: would do is say, listen, I think we should do this,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: let's try it. We try it it. Usually if it
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: didn't work, we didn't do it. Um. Regardless of what
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: bands say, the producer is hired by the band. He
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: can be fired, he can be changed. Um, they don't
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: have to use him for the follow up record. Um. Hm.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: The job of the producer is to help the band
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: realize its musical vision. And uh. He does not have
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: the power to say we're not going to do that
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: song or you have to do it this way unless
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: he's you know, a very very heavy producer, and and
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: you don't you know, the band doesn't want to alienate
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: him minutes their first record something like that. So Okay,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: where did you get the confidence to make these changes
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: since you were newbie? Well I didn't. It didn't get
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: the confidence. But but I think that my ideas were
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: good enough that the band you know, considered them ricks
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: very smart. This was cheap picks a bunch of smart guys,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: very talented, extremely good on on their instruments, and you
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: know that I think I think we had a mutual respect.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: So every hit you make gives you a little more confidence.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: It also it also makes you a little more afraid
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: of making a stiff the next time and being discovered
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: as a complete impostor. Okay, so an album like a
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: cheap trick in color. How much rehearsal did you do?
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: We probably did h four or five days. Okay, then
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: you go in the studio. When you go in the studio,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: at that point, I believe there are twelve tracks on
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: that record. Have you already whittled it down to twelve
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: or you cut more than that? You cut more than that,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: probably about fifteen or sixteen, and you know pretty quickly
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: which ones have potential um. In some cases you know
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: before you get into the studio which one is the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: hit um or the most probable hit UM. So then
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: then you cut them down, uh to ten or twelve
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: you know, depending on how many you feel you should
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: have on the album and what the what the total
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: time is on both sides. Because that when you made
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: records that actually affected the level of the record if
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: you had a twelve you know, a very very long
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: uh side, then you just couldn't make it as loud. Um.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: So that was that was a consideration. But after you
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: got down to your ten or twelve songs, um, again,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: you would make a judgment usually and say, okay, these
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: are the good ones, let's spend most of our time
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: on them. And there there would be one or two turkeys,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: and you would not spend very much time on those. Okay,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: what is I say? Would you literally cut as I say?
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: There are ten tracks? And in color? Would you actually
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: cut fifteen? Yes? Okay, and then you would uh, you know, concentrate. Okay.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: There are a couple of really big songs in retrospect
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: on in color? Did you know that I Want You
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: to Want Me? Was the single? Or Clock Strikes ten?
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Or Southern Girls? You know, I I knew I want
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: You to Want Me was was very catchy. But but
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: again I treated it as a dance hall tune, like
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: a thirties song with attack piano and finger snaps. Um.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: They changed it drastically, you know, for Buddhican or when
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: when they when they left the studio. Um. So I
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: didn't think that that was I can't remember the all
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: all the songs on the album uh right now, but
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think I thought that was the single. Well,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: needless to say, the album comes out, gets a lot
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of presses, love, but there is no hit single. So
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: then how do you end up then moving on to
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Heaven Tonight. Well, they liked the record and Rolling Stone
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: named an album of the year, so you know it
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: was um it had credibility and the manager uh urged
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: them to uh to stay with me and and that's
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: what they did, I and and and Heaven Tonight. I
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: think that's one of the best records I ever produced. Um,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: we just got along. We did well, and we thought
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: that the day would come if we kept at it. Okay,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: that album comes out and tell us the story of
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Buddha con Well, the story is quick. Um. I wasn't there.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I was finishing Ted's fifth album UH down at Criteria
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: in Miami, and I had about two weeks to go.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I guess I got a call from uh Lenny Pizze,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: who was then Um. Yeah, he called me and he said, listen,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Cheap Trick is going to record in Japan at Buddha
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: con Um. We want you to go over there. And
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and oversee the project. And I said, I can't leave ted.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm busy here. I gotta finish this album. And
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: um so I'm I missed out on a wonderful experience.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Um you know which which was going. I've been to
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Tokyo twice and I really love it. And boy were
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: they They were loved in Japan. So um that was that.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: And and and we when we did Heaven Tonight, I
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: think it was Heaven Tonight or was it dream Police?
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Dream Police that you put on the back burner? That's right,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: we did. We finished dream Police in one month start
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: to finish, which was a real feat at that time,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: not not these days, not even twenty years ago, but
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: in the seventies it was. It was a big deal.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: And we we we broke our backs to finish that
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: because they were going out on tour and then Boudhican
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: exploded and they put Dream Police on the shelf for
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: eight months and that was that. Okay, to what degree
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: were you involved? Because I remember buying Buddhakan as an
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: import and then they were playing if you want Me
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: to Want Me, Want you to Want Me? On radio
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: and then it ultimately had a US release to what
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: did we were you involved in the album's production? None,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: not whatsoever? You were at the label? Whose decision was
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: it to release the record in America? Well it was
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. I can't remember, but obviously it would
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: have been that it would have been the head of marketing,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: the head of of an R, or the head of
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the label Ronald Lexemburg at that time. Um it was.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: It was a huge hit in uh in Japan, so
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you know it was it was ours, it was free
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and why not? It was an established band. Okay, so
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: dream Police comes out and it is not a success
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: full as he anticipated. It was like the whole world
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: was primed. I thought the quality was not as good
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: in the sales were not as good. What was their
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: perspective from your eyes? I thought the quality was was
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: very good. I thought it was the production values. We're
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: uh up up to Heaven Tonight. Um Entry Police was
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: was a reasonably successful single. I think the album was
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: did go platinum. So I don't know what what people expected,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: but uh, it was. It was a hit album. I
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: mean all Heaven Tonight, Entry and Police were both platinum,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: so I think it did as well as Heaven Tonight.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: So How did it end with you in Cheap Trick, Well,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: it ended amicably, but they decided to go with George Martin,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: and I certainly couldn't argue with that. But it turns
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: out that that that the album they made with George
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Martin was a relative stiff UH compared to the albums
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that we had done in terms of sales. It's a
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: great album, but it it didn't. It didn't certainly didn't
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: do what I think everyone expected it to do, especially
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: with Sir George's involvement. And I have the greatest respect
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: for Sir George. Okay, but then they go on their
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: own journey of producer after producer. How can they will
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: come back to you? Who knows? Who knows? You know
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you can make? I think making three or or more
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: albums with with the band for a producer is a
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: good run. UM. Many bands in those days went from
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: producer to producer every single album they made. Some stayed
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: with the same UH successful um formula UH for for
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: a long time. But I think it's perfectly natural for
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: UH Motley Crue two switch producers. After three albums with
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: me for Cheap Trick Um, the only UM see I
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I did five records with Ted and five records with
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Molly Hatchett. Um. Leaving those bands, it was my decision. Um.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: But if a band chooses to leave, you know, they
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: want to grow in a different direction. They want a
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: producer who contributes different things. A producer's input can get
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: pretty stale too, you know. Uh, you have a specific
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: way of making a record and and specific talents musical
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas. Um. You know, I was good at
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: certain things. Other producers may have appealed to the band
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: because they're they were good at other things that the
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: band thought they needed. What things were you What things
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: were you good at? I was good at percussion. I
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: was good I think at UM, song structure, harmony, UH,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: guitar fills in particular UM, working with the guitar player
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: UM and arranging keyboards or keyboard overdubs because most of
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the band's didn't have keyboards, so there was a lot
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: of actual uh you know, musical composition or or or
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: bowl string that that I did. Um. I was not
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: at all tech nicol um. But uh, you know, there
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: may be in In many instances, a band can be
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: very fond of another band and they'll say, well, maybe
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: you know, if we use their producer, we can sound
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: we can we can get better, we can sound more
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: like them. We can you know, change. Okay, so let's
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: go back to the beginning. Where are you from Boston? Boston?
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And you? Uh, what do your parents do for a
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: living in Boston. Well, they're both they they are both
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: died a long time ago. Uh. My father was in
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: real estate. He managed a few, a few holdings for
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: his family. He had uh siblings and they all we're
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: in partnership and he was the manager. UM. He retired
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: when he was about My mother was an interior decorator
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and an executive secretary at Harvard and then head of
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: the what was it, the Boston Society of Architects UM
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: had secretary. So they were both heavily educated. And I
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: they sent me to private school and I was a
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: preppy and in an ivy league guy, and they hoped
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: that I would be a CEO, and I had absolutely
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: no talent for being a CEO because I I couldn't
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: see the big picture at all. I see, I don't.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: I not only can't see the forest for the trees,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I see the bark, I can't. I can't even see
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the tree. So producing was a good thing for me
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: to get into. Eventually, they were devastated when I went.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: I told them I was leaving the ad agency for
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: rock and roll for CBS. Okay, let's go a little
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: bit slower. How many kids in the family in my family?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Or do I know your siblings? Just one sister, older sister? Okay?
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Did you did she fly the straight and narrow? Yes? Okay.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: So you go to Columbia and you're a music major. No, no, no,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: I can't read and I can't write. Um, it's just
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: all in my head. I was wanted to be an
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: English major, wound up being a major and something called
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: economic geography. What the hell is that? Well, it's hard
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: to explain. It's like why is the wheat belt where
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: it is? Um. It was a strange, kind of an
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: amorphous subject um that had to do with the client
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: and topography and industry. UM. The only reason I I
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: majored in it was because I took it because it
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: sounded interesting. One course, I aced the final and the
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: professor said, if you have any interest in majoring in
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: this subject, I would highly recommend that you do. So
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I said, I'm in because English. I loved English. UM.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: And and uh. There are certain required courses in order
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: to major in a subject, and one of the required
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: courses was the history of English literature from sixteen sixteen
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to seventeen eighty nine. And boy is that dry? I mean, ah, yeah,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I just couldn't pack it. So I said, I'm like,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I can't major in English. I've got to find in
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: another major. And I was busy playing guitar anyway. So
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: that begs the question, when did you get the music bug?
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I think when I was I had it all my life,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: but when I was nine. Yeah, I was just very
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: fortunate to be born at the right time. Elvis. I
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: discovered Elvis when I was nine. That was when he started,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: really when he came on the scene. I'm the first
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: record I ever bought was Milkow Blues Boogie. And I
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: used to stand in front of the mirror and and
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: air guitar and and lip sync two Elvis records for
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: hours and hours, and I found that I just I
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: just absorbed all every song that I that I liked,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: and I liked a lot of them, uh than in
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: the in the late fifties and mid fifties. Um, I
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: absorbed every single detail I I listened to serious uh
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: in my car now, and I'll listen to UM the
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: fifties on fifty and I'll hear a song that I
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: haven't heard since and and I'll know every lick and
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: and and it's a it's a damn shame because sometimes,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: you know, I can't remember my wife's name, and yet
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I remember all of these other things. I've got a
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: giant library of sound in my head. Um. I just
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I just had to uh, you know, I have to
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: say that one of the one of the things that
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: really convinced me to take music, the music business seriously.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I saw three concerts in New York while I was
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: in college, uh and graduate school. Um. I saw the
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Beatles first New York show at Carnegie Hall. I saw
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: the Stones first show in New York. And the best
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: one was the Who at the Fillmore East, playing Tommy
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: for the first time in America. And I was just
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I mean it was. It was a major experience for me,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and I could not stay away from rock and roll.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I just could. So, I you know, I was in
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: an addie agency. I made a very foolish mistake, and
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: I hated my job. So I finally after a year
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: there I wrote a letter to Clive and and I said, listen,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: I have an be a and and I have a job,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: and I hate it, and I know a lot about
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: rock and roll. I'm a musician, and I think you
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: could benefit from my work there. And so I started
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: to interview and after a few months they hired me. Okay,
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: let's go back. So you listen to the Elvis songs.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: When do you start to play? Around fourteen? Um, I
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: am found a guitar in my aunt's attic, really old guitar,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: and I taught myself how to play. Um. I got
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: a few lessons in fingerpicking from Jim Queskin. From Jim Queskin,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: the actual Jim Queskin. What was he up to when
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: you were taking lessons? Well, I wasn't taking lessons. He
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: was His father and my father were room mates, uh
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: in grad school, and Jim was that bu at the
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: time at Boston University, and so we had Jim over
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: for Sunday meals, you know, from time to time. He
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: was a starving college kid and I had I was
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: learning the guitar on my own, and so he he
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: taught me how to scrugs pick freight train and and
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: you said, a bunch of songs, um, and and then
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: you know, a few years later I would go to
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Club forty seven and see the jug band. Um. I
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: recently saw Jim up here in the Berkshires with Jeff Muldar.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: It was going. Know, he lives in Connecticut. I hear
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: from him every once in a while. You saw them
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: and they were playing, or you just interact, Oh yeah, no, no, no,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: they Jim. Jeff's been up here twice in the last
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: seven or eight years. He probably comes more frequently than that.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: But Um, Jim was playing and they were great. I
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: mean they were just as good as they used to be. Okay,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: so you start playing, you form bands in high school. Yeah,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: I had a folk of folk group initially, UM we had.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: We used to rehearse every Sunday. We were six seventeen
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: and uh, we didn't have any gigs, and we would
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: finally got a couple of sweet sixteen parties in you know,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: in in suburban homes, and we found ourselves singing to
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: actually just two of us, my friend and I would
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: would take our guitars and harmonize and we would sing
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Josh White songs about syphilis and and death and heavy
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: blues we had no idea what we were saying about,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: and the sixteen year old girls who were who were
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: surrounding us, you know, on the living room floor, really
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: had no idea what we were saying about. But we
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: got paid. We enjoyed it, and I said, you know,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: this is a good thing. I like this. So when
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: I got to college, UM, I got into a band
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: right away, and then I formed my own band with
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: with what We formed a band when I was a
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: sophomore that was very uh successful, and unfortunately I turned
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: down an opportunity to go pro um because of Vietnam. Okay,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: what kind of music did that band? Player? Covers Beatles, stones,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: and birds almost exclusively, and maybe you know, uh one
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: or two motown things. And we were very we were
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: very good. Actually we played all over the Northeast colleges. UM.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: We had a gig at one of three discos in
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: New York in n and Um we played a private
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: party I can't remember at whose place it was baby
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Vincent Sarti and and thattt Weiss was there, and and
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: that Weiss introduced himself. We took a break and he said,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I Brian Epstein's lawyer, attorney in the States, and I
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: think you're good, and I think Brian would like to
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: hear you. And the conversation went something like, well, listen,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: what would happen if we made a hit? We'd have
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: to go on tour, right And he replied, well, that's
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: what they usually do, and and I said, I'm sorry,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: we can't do that because we're students and we'd lose
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: our deferment. And that was that. Okay. So you lived
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: through quite a change starting with Elvis. Then the pop
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: music of the early sixties was you know, bland, but
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: there was a big folks and then the Beatles hit.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: What was it like living through that era? Fabulous? It
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: was just fabulous. I mean the avalanche of creativity that
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: came from England, you know, between nineteen whatever sixty three,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: and it was it was unbelievable, overwhelming. Um there's the
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: most wonderful time to be a musician, to listen to music. Um,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: I just I just loved it. I just look. Did
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: you like the Beatles right away? Like him? I I
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: ached to be a Beatle. They were they Elvis established
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: the cool bar, you know, in the mid fifties, and
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: he was the coolest thing you could be. When the
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Beatles came along. They elevated the cool bar like infinitely,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: and I said, she h, I mean aside from the
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: fact that they were the most the coolest guys in
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: the world. And we sat down. My My, uh, the
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: lead guitarists from our band and I sat down when
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: we met, and we reeled off together about twelve Beatles
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: songs and we both knew all the chords. We had
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: figured figured out how to play Beatles songs. The I
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: don't have any words for the Beatles. They were, you know,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: they were the Beatles. I met George once. That was
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: really great. What was the experience, Well, you know, a
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: CBS convention. I don't know if you were ever familiar
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: with the CBS convention. They in the summer. We had
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: a sales convention at a different place every year, and
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: there would be dinner shows in the grand ballroom of
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: whatever hotel we were at. And these were dinner shows
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: for twelve hundred people, and Clive would invite every big
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: star that he possibly could, because you know, Clive loves
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: the company of big stars. And we were in London,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: and uh, I was I. I had been in charge
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: of the English roster for Epic Records, and I was
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: with Jeff Beck and his and his girlfriend Celia, and
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: he was a guest at the show, and we were
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: down front. Um, otherwise I would have been back somewhere
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: in the rear, and we were. We get to our
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: table and um, having a glass of wine, and I
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: look around and at the next table making Keith. At
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: the next table, I just ploted. I couldn't believe it,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: and and and so I'm trying to gather my wits
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: and a few minutes go by, and I look at
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: the table behind them, George and Ringo, and it was like,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: you know, it was it was laughable, and I was.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: I was, I don't think I've ever been so dazzled
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: in my life. So, you know, three four glasses of
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: wine later, George gets up to go to the men's room,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: and I swallowed my pride and followed him into the ment.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: I prudently waited till he washed his hands, and then
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I introduced myself, and jeez, I just, you know, I
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: just hanging around and being with and working with celebrities,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: and I knew that this was not a cool thing
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: to do, you know, go over to somebody's table and
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: say hi, I don't want to interrupt your dinner, but
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: I'm going to interrupt your dinner and ask me, you know.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: So I felt awkward, but he was polite and we talked.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I told him who I was and who I worked
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: for and blah blah blah, and how what an incredible
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: influence that that the Beatles were on me? And I
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: could see me he was being polite, But then I
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: was desperate to prolonged the conversation, so I I started
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: to ask him about some of his um the guitar
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: parts he it um specifically. I remember asking him about
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: the little duet he played with himself, I got to
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: get you into my life, and and I mentioned the
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: the Revolver songs because that was his that was his
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: moment George as a writer. I think he had like
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: four maybe four songs on that album, including tax Man
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: and I want to tell You Great Rifle, Oh yeah,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, and and so he um snapped to attention.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Really um. I could kind of tell that his eyes
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: were glazing over. But when we started talking about the guitar,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: he said, oh yeah, so this guy knows something. Anyway,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: that that was a wonderful experience. Okay, so who sang
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: in the band I did, and and the other guitarist. Okay,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: so how do you decide to get an m B A. Well,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't. Um. I didn't make any decisions in my
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: life until I was UM. I just was a trained poodle,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: you know, a trained seal. And I did what my
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: parents wanted me to do. They invested a lot in me,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: and I didn't want to disappoint them. So I went
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: to business school and also graduate school offered the chance
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: to lengthen, to prolong your educational deferment, and I didn't.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: I disagreed with Vietnam. I didn't want to go to Vietnam.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: So um dad had gone to Harvard Business School. I
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: I just went and got an m B A. I.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: I was a stranger in a strange land. I didn't
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: enjoy it at all. I didn't do very well. Um.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: But then you know, I got job offers from three companies,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: and one of them was CBS Records, which I which
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I considered too small, and and and we actually went
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: for the money in those days instead of doing what
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: we thought would would be, you know, something we'd enjoy.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: I I was just I had no idea what I
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: was doing. So um I made my I made the
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: decision to take control of my life when I was
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: and desperate to get out of the AD Agency. Okay,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: in retrospect, any benefit of going to get an m
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: b A other than deferring Vietnam for me? No, um I.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: I was concentrated in marketing, and I always called marketing
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: advanced common sense. It's it was like we we would have,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: of course is uh called human behavior and organizations. Yeah,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: you know, and uh courses like that, and and then
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: we we'd have other courses that were mind blowing, uh,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: just incredibly difficult for me. Operations research, which has advanced
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: statistical analysis. What am I going to do with that?
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Am I ever going to use that? Not a chance?
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: So you know, I I gretted my teeth. Fortunately, we
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: had the riots that year at Columbia and they they
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: instituted past bail for the spring semester. And that's when
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: I was taking operations research. Okay, you know that was
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: a big deal, the Strawberry statement, et cetera. Were you
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: part of those protests? No? I had friends in the buildings.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Um I visited, but I did not. Um I did
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: not occupy. I was not an occupier. I was not
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: a demonstrator. I was sympathetic and I went to demonstrations
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: as a part of a crowd, but I did not
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: go into the buildings. Um. I was hospitalized, but not
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: on campus. I got savagely beat by by the NYPD
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: downtown at another demonstration, but at at Columbia. No. Okay,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: So how did you know you graduate the Vietnam War
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: is still going on? How do you ultimately not go
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: to Vietnam? Well, I my number didn't come up. You know,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: uh things things were over pretty soon after I graduated,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: or you know, I had a I had a high number.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I think it was in the two as did I ultimately,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: thank god. So but they were not drafting that many
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: people at that point. Let's talk about some of your productions.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Gary Myrick tell us the story there. I don't remember
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: how I got into involved with Gary, but I loved him. Um.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: We had a wonderful We had a lot of fun.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Um I know he had I know she talks in stereo?
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Was in What Valley Girl? Um? I was a fean
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: of Gary Myrick. So I I bought the album. I
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: went to seemn roxy the fact it was invaluable secondary
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: to me right right. Well, he was. He was unique.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: He was probably a little ahead of his time. Um,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: I loved it, and it didn't it didn't happen there.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: You know that he was part of a handful of
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: bands that I worked with um over that twenty years
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: that didn't make it, that I thought were brilliant. But
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: in his case, he didn't even make another record for
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: a long time. He probably didn't. I lost track of
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: of Gary. I saw him again in Austin, Texas years later,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: but um, he was great. I enjoyed him. Tell us
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: the story of Molly Hatchet. Um. I was remixing Southern
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Girls uh for for cheap trick, uh so we could
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: release it as a single down at that studio in Atlanta,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: UM with with that engineer that I that that did
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: the Ted Nugent Records with me and the manager for
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: this band from from Florida called me up and said,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: I'd like to bring my band into your studio. They
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: can audition for you right there while you're working. And fine,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I think I may have heard a demo. UM.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: So I was agreeable. They came in, we took a
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: break from mixing. They set up in the studio blew
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: me away and I said, I really, you guys are good.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I'd like to sign you. And it was that simple.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: We we did it. Um. I had never seen the
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: three guitar UH attack since skinnered and UM. You know
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: these Southern guys, they're tough guys, their street guys, but
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: they've got this almost delicate approach to uh two guitar
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: harmonies and parts. They're just I don't know how to
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: describe it, but but they're they're superb pickers, they're superb
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: players and sometimes syrupy suite. There was a guy in
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Molly Hatchett, Dwayne Rowland, who he came from a broken home.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: He was shot in the stomach by his father, and
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: he was he was one of the most amazing guitarists
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: I've ever seen. He never looked at the neck. He
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: doubled all his parts. Um. They were great, UH and
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: it was new to me, It was it was really new.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: I found myself down in Orlando making their records, and
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: they would invite me out to two bars with them
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: after the after the session, where they like to drink
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: gallons of Jack Daniels and then clear the bar. They
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: loved to fight and here, I am as nice Jewish
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: boy from Boston. What am I doing here? What am
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: I doing with these guys? We had a great We
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: had a great time. We made five records together. I
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: just enjoyed being in their world, you know, and they
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: appreciated the actually appreciated me. We had nothing in common
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: in terms of lifestyle. It was It was great though, Okay,
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: whose decision was it to cover Dreams? Which was an
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Almond Brothers song seen as part of the southern rock cannon.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Yet Molly Hatchett's version was quite dramatic in some ways,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: even superior um. It was a guitar tour divorce, and
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: it was their idea. I wasn't really familiar with the
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: song when when they they they suggested that they do it,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: and it was quite something in terms of guitar and uh,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: what kind of input did you have with Molly Hatchett?
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: A lot, um well, about as much as I do
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: with anybody. Their songs were more um complete, more well
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: formed by the time they got into the stud video
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: they had their guitar solos together, which was which was
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: saying a lot for a band like Molly Hatchett, you know,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: with with bands like especially with cheap tricks. Sometimes Rick
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: would come into the studio with fragments, and in the
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: studio while we were there, he would put maybe one
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: chorus from one song with the verse from another song.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: And there was a lot of work in progress in
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: the studio there. It was. It wasn't spontaneous, but it
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: was not over rehearsed. Molly Hatchett had their had their
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: parts down because they played live a lot. And ultimately,
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: how do you leave epic and go independent? Well, the
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: truth is I had I had an office in the
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Carlsburg Building over by Century City, I had a secretary,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: I had a good salary, but I never went in
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: and I spent every day in the studio. I was
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: just producing, producing, producing, cranking him out. And Dick Asher,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: who was then president of CBS Records, came to town.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: I went to Dick, and I guess I I guess
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: I believed in what I was saying that. I said, Dick,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: I think I deserve a raise. And he said, well, Tom,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not the same record business that it
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: used to be. And he made this this excuse. In
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: that excuse, and I said, listen, I Dick, I really
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I like you, and I love being here. I've been
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: here for twelve years. But if I don't get this raise,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: I'm going to have to go somewhere else. And he
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: held firm and I left. Um. I was also, you know,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Joe Smith hired me at that point away from CBS
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: to go and be head of A and R at Electra,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: and this was I said, Well at the time, I said,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe it's time for me to go back
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: into the office and be an executive. And also, you know,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: I can produce a few records for Electra and it's
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: a class label. And uh he did hire me. I
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: started there, and then Krasnow came in and I just
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: couldn't deal. So I left after three months. But but
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: really I left CBS because I didn't think they were
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: paying me enough. Um, I didn't make a real uh royalty.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: I was making a third of what independent producers make.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: And I sold billions and millions and millions of records
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: for Epic, you know, as a producer, and uh so
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: so so I said, I was a little frustrated by that.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: And when I left, you know, I started making a
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: real street royalty. I mean, the same thing that other
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: successful producers made. So was your tenure at Electra. How
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: you got hooked up with Motley Crewe. Yeah, Tom Zoo
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Taught was my assistant, and he wound up at you know,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: he's he's he signed Guns and Roses and he was
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: a very good day in arm Man after he left Electra,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: and he was he was a very good day in
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: arm And at Electra. But he he was at that
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: time my assistant, and he had signed Motley Crewe to
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: the label and he said, Wrman, I think you'd be
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: really the right producer for Motley Crewe. And just at
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: that time, um we made the record. It took off instantly,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: and kras Now had come in and told us at
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: lunch with Bruce lund Ball, who was now second in
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: command at Electra, the first thing I'm gonna do is
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: dropped Motley Crew their embarrassment to this label. I said,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: you know, as politely as I could, Bob Um. You know,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: I have a great respect for your ear and for
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: the music you've you know, you've signed over at at
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Warner Brothers. But somebody has to pay the bills, and
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: this is, you know, kind of my meat and potatoes.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: Why don't you just let me take care of this
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: side of the roster. Uh, and he he wouldn't have it,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: So I, uh, it was too late at that point
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: for him to drop Motley Crew. It would have been
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: a huge mistake and a big embarrassment to him. So
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: I said, Bob, I can't, I can't. You know, he
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: wanted to be head of an art. He wouldn't let
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: me do my job. So I left and they said,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: would you, you know, make a deal with us, We
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: to do three albums a year, And I said sure, sure,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: And Motley Crew was the first of those albums. Shouted
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: shout at the devil. And what were the other albums
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: of that three album deal? Theater of Pain and Girls
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Girls Girls. Okay, so the deal was three Motley Crewe albums,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: not three albums on the Electra roster. It was three
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: albums on the Elector roster. Um. The other one I
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: did right away was Docking to the Nail. Okay. So
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: what was it like? Work? You know, Molly Crew was
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: the street band. They had an independent records. You taught
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: signed them, you work. When they blew up? What was
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: it like because suddenly it went nuclear? Yeah, it was
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: a surprise to me, not that they could sell records
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: but how dominant they became h on on the l
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: A scene, and and and how huge it it became nationally. Uh,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: I just never I've never seen that. That had never
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: happened with one of my bands. Um, So it was great.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: And again it was an association that I really enjoyed
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: because they were the real bad boys of rock and
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: roll at the time. They they were so far from
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: what I was and how I grew up that it
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: was fascinating, and I enjoyed the outlaw association, you know.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: It was kind of, I don't know, walk on the
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: wild side. I go out on the road with them,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: and I've never seen anything like it, you know, And
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: it was it was fun. It was a lot of fun.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed working with Mick um highly underrated guitar player. Um.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: Tommy was great. Nicky was dark, a little secretive. Tommy
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: was It was wonderful. He was a real He's like
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: a puppy dog. He's, you know, very enthusiastic about everything,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: very cooperative and funny. Vince was great, but he was
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: he put party ahead of vocal. And what input did
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: you have to those wrecks? Well quite a bit, although
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: Nikki did throw out a little fiction. Uh in the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: in in his Heroin Diaries book, Um, I I did
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of of stuff, a lot of musical. I
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: made a lot of musical contributions on on the records.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: Because they were distracted, I could kind of get away
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: with uh, you know, with doing more of what I
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: wanted because they didn't seem to care that much. Nikki
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: was very serious and took the band very seriously and
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: as a serious songwriter. But they partied, you know then,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: and they were there was a time there when they
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: were doing hard drugs, which is not conducive to either,
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: you know, decision making or progress in the studio. And
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: how do you handle a band that's on hard drugs?
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: Is your responsibility? Or you keep it at arms length? Well,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: you you know, you try to be uh, you try
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: to join the band for the duration of the project. Um,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: but you can't be too palsy. You can't get too
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: close with them because you have to at least try
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: to maintain some sense of authority. UM. You know, you
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: talk to them about why you guys are wasting a
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: lot of money. You gotta you really should show up
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: on time. We have to do this particular thing. Tomorrow,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: so please don't go out tonight or don't you know
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: you try your best um to be uh, to talk
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: some sense into them. But you know, it's like Keith
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Richards if you know, if you're if the session is
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: called for two pm and he doesn't show up till midnight,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: what can you do? You sit there and you wait. Um.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: You know when Nikki, when Nikki o'deed and was pronounced dead.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: I called him the afternoon of the morning he was released,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: and he said, you want to go out for sushi?
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: And we had sushi at some place in the valley.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Uh and and he was he had been pronounced dead
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: the night before. He was blue. And that's how these
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: guys were. I end up working with Poison. They also
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: had an independent label and I think you did independent
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: record that you did their first studio major label record.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: They actually Rick Browdy did there did h It was
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: a talk dirty to me? Was that the name of
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: the album? I don't remember, but but he did their
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: first album. UM. Tom Wally was an A and R
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: man um you know at Capital. I think he signed
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: them and he called me and said, I'm interested in
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: having you produced this band. Uh, and we Tom Moehler,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: their manager, arranged a lunch meeting between us, and they
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: had wanted I was told that they had wanted Paul
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Stanley to produce the record, but he couldn't. So, UM
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: my name came up and we met and we got
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: along and uh, you know that that was a really
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: enjoyable project. Hard for me, uh, really difficult. And the
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: guys were very frank, especially Ricky and cc uh would
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: would say things like, I know I'm not, you know,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: the best musician in the world, but you know, I'll
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: give it my best shot. And they were I didn't
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: use any ringers. I almost I used three ringers in
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: in my whole career for one or two songs. Um,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: they did everything. People always ask me, Uh, did did
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: they really do this on poison? Did they do this?
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: They do that? There was there was. I used Willie
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: Nelson's harmonica player to do some harmonica parts and that
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: was it. Um, they were good guys. That that was
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: a fun, a fun project. Then I was really surprised
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: that we had four top ten singles from that album.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Was a huge album. Absolutely. So at this point in time,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: you're completely independent. How are you getting gigs? You're waiting
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: for the phone to ring or you're pitching yourself. Um.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: By the time poison came around, UM, I could see
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: the writing on the wall in terms of musical change. UM,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: I was getting a little burnt out, and I kind
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: of was preparing for uh, the other side of the hill,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: because you don't good producers can have careers at last
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: five years, ten years. Um mine mine lasted twenty years.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: There's a handful out there legends who produced hits for
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: their entire lives. I knew that I wasn't one of those.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: And UM, with the advent of ah never mind, I said,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: wait a minute. You know, I left her the studio
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: one day and I heard my daughter playing license to
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Ill and I went to her doorway of her room
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: and I said, Julia, well, Jules, I said, how can
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: you listen to that? It sounds like it was made
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: in five minutes, because that's how I felt. And she said,
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: but Dad, that's exactly it. And I said, oh shit,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: everything I know is wrong. And you know, from that
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: time on the qualities that I tried to to have
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: for my records, UM, you know, timing, tuning, meter, UM organization.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: We're not only um you know ignored they were rejected
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: by musicians. So I said, man, I can't make these records.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: I you know, I don't. This is not this is
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: not what I do. My whole musical sense, uh would
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: not allow me to contribute to these to these bands,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: and they wouldn't work with me because to work with
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: a producer who did Motley Crew in the early nineties
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: would be embarrassing and it would literally lose the band's
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: street credibility, you know, it would be an embarrassment to them.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: So I started to um, you know, I had projects,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: but I started to think about doing something else, you know,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: and and walking away, which eventually I did, but it
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: took about seven or eight more years. So what was
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: that process and how did you decide to ultimately pull
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: the ripcord. Well, I wasn't working for a couple of years.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: I did UM, I did kicks, I did l a guns,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: I did lead a forward UM. I did three bands
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: for Geffen that need, none of which succeeded interesting bands,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: and I would I played a lot of golf, and
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: I played a lot of golf with my good friend
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Tom Kelly. It was a song her saying or he
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: wrote like a virgant and many others, and I would
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: bitch and moaned to him, and he he said, you
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: should read this book. And he gave me a book
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: called Who Moved My Cheese? And I read it in
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: forty minutes. And I stood up and I said, what
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: am I doing? I need to move on. I need
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: to go with the changes, reinvent myself. And honest to God,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: two weeks later I was here in the Berkshires. I
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: found you know, this farm, this place, um. And that
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: was in February. In July, I had sold two houses
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: and we were living here and I mean it was quick,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: you know. Uh. And and we renovated this place for
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: eight months and then we opened up. Linda Ronstadt was
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: our first guest, and Boylan came and Shelley Schultz came.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: And we've been doing it for the last twenty years
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: and it's been bliss. Okay, let's just go back before
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: we go forward. How did you hook up with Twisted Sister? Oh? My,
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: here we go. Uh. Doug Morris called me and he
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: called me at home and he said, listen, I have
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: this band. Um. They're big in Europe, but they can't
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: get arrested. He said that I can't get arrested in
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: in the United States. I think you are the only
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: guy who can make a hit record with them. You know,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: when a guy when when Doug Morris calls you, when
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: the president of a major label calls you and says,
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: please do this record for me, you do it. It's
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: that simple. So you know, I flew to somewhere in Pennsylvania, Harrisburg,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: I think, to see them play in a club. We
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: had a good meeting. They seemed like really nice guys,
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: and I I'm sure that they wanted there was somebody
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: else I can't remember who that they wanted to produce them.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: But they agreed and we went into the studio and
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: everything seemed to go well, and it certainly did commercially. Um.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: But but after after we left the studio and the
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: recording was done and approved by the Snyder um he Um.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know, he turned into some kind of doppelganger.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: He started bad mouthing me and I I just think
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: my theory was that he had worked so hard on
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: this band for so long, um that when they finally
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: hit it, uh, he did not want anyone else to
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: get any credit. And I was a known producer at
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: the time and I think he was just piste off
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: that people would say, well, you know, they finally got
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: the right producer. So we had quite a cantankerous exchange.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't get it. He's still to this day.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: You know, in his book he wrote, I think that
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: Tom Warman completely destroyed our album. I mean, you know,
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: for a guy who who sold six million albums at
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: that time probably millions more by now, that's that's pretty
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: strange to say, I would think. But there you go.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: But they did not have another commercial success after they
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: work with you. Correct, correct, and and and beyond that.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, he he mocks me for for suggesting that
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: they do this, uh this song, Uh, I can't remember again,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the name Strong Armor with the last
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Saxon a stung by Saxon, this you know, European heavy
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: metal band. And he in interviews he said, can you
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: believe it? He he actually asked us to cover this song.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: We we used a tour with Saxon, and he just
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: thought that was the most ridiculous thing. And what do
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: they do The next next album they do is with
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: Theeter Dirk's and what do they release as the single
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Leader of the Pack I mean, come on, guys, little
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: hypocrisy there. So that's the deal I got. I can't
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: talk about you know, I get, I get really I
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: get a little wound up. Okay, are you continuing to
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: get paid on all these records? Yeah? Um. It's very
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: interesting what happened with royalties because the royalty stream, you know,
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: it was was healthy and then at the turn of
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: the century it started to diminish, um, And I could
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: see that it was going to go down. And then,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: you know, who's going to listen to records that were made,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: you know in in the mid nineteen seventies. Now nobody's
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: going to go out and by theies, by c d
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: s or anything like that. And it continued down till
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: about ten eight or ten years ago, and miraculous lee,
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: it started to increase, and it has been increasing every
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: year for the last eight years, um until now. It's uh,
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: it's just just it's a very fortunate mailbox money kind
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: of situation. Um. Statements and checks will show up that
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: I that are are big surprises, And I'm really grateful
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: because streaming has just you know, it's it's just multiplied things.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: You've got every single person in the world who has
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: access to the internet can listen to any song they
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: want to at any time anywhere. It's amazing. So you know,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: you take, uh, you know, a tenth of assent and
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: you multiply it by million people and it amounts to
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: some money. So, yes, I still make money from records
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: that I made forty years ago. Do you think you're
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: to what degree? If there's a hundred cents on the dollar,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: how much do you think you're getting You mean being
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: ripped off, being ripped off by the people who own
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: the property are paying you. You know you have you
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: ever audited anybody? Yeah? Well, you know, auditing is tough.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: It's very expensive, and people don't do contingency audits anymore
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: um I and and audits also have a statute of limitations.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: So I haven't done any audits. I'm sure as you are,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: and as probably everybody is, that we do not get
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: paid what we are contractually owed. But I get paid
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: enough so that I really don't care that that it's
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: so it's okay if they want to skim, if they
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: want to sheet me. I'm not saying that they do,
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: but if they did, it would be okay because they
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: pay me enough. That's how I feel, okay, and needless
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: to say, you don't get paid on those records you
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: made for epic, Um I do. I still I still
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: do get paid on those, um the biggest they are
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: not it's not very much compared to the compared to
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: the others. UM. But yes, well I thought that you
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: under your contract you didn't get it, but they like
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: kick you and Nickela record, was that ever contractually written down?
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: Eventually it was, uh, but you know I it was
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: contractually for a nickel you know. So with Ted I
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: made a Nickela record starting after the first one, UM
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: and they kept it at a Nickela record. And then
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: I think it was twelve cents for for Cheap Trick,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: probably a little more for Molly Hatchett because after Cheap Trick,
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: I think we made a contract because I started I incorporated.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: Uh my accountant said you should have, you should establish
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: a production company, um and and so I did, and
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: that production company got a larger royalty, probably twenty cents
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: or something like that for for the Molly Hatchet albums.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: So I still get paid on on Ted Nugent, Cheap
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: Prick and Molly Hatchett from Sony and and it's you know,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: it's it's nice. I met Tom Corson uh of Warner
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: Brothers or Warner Records, UM last year because my son
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: Daniel works works in A and R for Warner and
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: we were visiting him in Los Angeles, and um we
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: were somehow Tom and I got into a little conversation
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: about royalties and I said, yeah, it's it's remarkable. Really,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: what's you know how how streaming has uh increased the
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: amount of royalties that that I'm making in the last
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: two or three years And he said, wait, and UH,
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: that was it was great to hear. Apparently, Um, those
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: who know think that screaming is well, screaming is obviously
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: the wave of the future and the present, but that
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: it's going to get even better. So okay, when you
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: read the book and you moved to the Berkshire's at
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: that time, did you have enough money that you didn't
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: have to make any more money for the rest of
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: your life or did you have to work? Um? I
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: had to. I think I had to work. I have
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: specific goals in terms of finances, uh for my kids
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: and m h I had I did I put a
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: million and a half dollars into this place right away,
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: and and so I and also it was a labor
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: of love. I didn't want to retire when I was
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: fifty five. I do now and I will in eleven
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: months completely we sold UM so Uh I didn't. If
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: if I had been paid uh uh a royalty on
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: the bands that I signed to CBS, which have sold
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: between a hundred and fifty and two hundred million albums,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: I would have enough money. Well what bands did you
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: sign that we didn't mention Boston with with Lenny, you
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: know that UM I signed m Rio, Ted, Chief Trick,
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: Molly Hatchett, and Boston. I tried to sign Rush, Leonard
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: skinnerd Kiss, and I tried to get Columbia to sign
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: Manhattan Transfer. They didn't listen either. Okay, So you know,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: usually just when you make something definitively I have a
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: definitive decision, all of a sudden things pop up in
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: your whole world. So you decide to open a B
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: and B in Massachusetts, All of a sudden people track
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: it down and produced records. They asked, yes, I'm not interested. Uh.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: I did one single song in the last twenty years
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: as a guy sent me a demo and it was
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: a It was a novelty song. It was it was.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: I thought it was extremely clever and if I an
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: ace it myself went down to Charlotte and uh and
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: we and we did a record there, and you know,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: I didn't know how to promote it. I just wanted
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: to do it. It was great fun. But no, I
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not interested. The only band that I think I
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: could work with, or had thought I could work with
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: any time after the turn of the century was Food Fighters. Um,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: I would Dave Grohl is the only idol I have
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: who's younger than I am. He's like so so devoted
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: to rock and roll. Uh you know, he's he's a
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: wonder a wonderful inspiration, and he's done so much for
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: rock and roll. And it was great because he grew
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: up knowing that rock and roll was a an integral
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: part of American culture and maybe even worldwide culture, whereas
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: my generation grew up knowing that our parents hated it,
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: that that they thought it was a fat and they
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: were waiting for it to go away. And and you
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: know when I said, well, I you know, I make
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: rock and roll records. When I was in my thirties,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't have the the satisfaction that I have now
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: of of of saying that and thinking that in in
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: a very small way, I actually contributed something to American culture. Um.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: Dave grohld was you know? I thought this was the
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: coolest thing you could do and one of the most
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: legitimate things he could do. Um, probably from birth? Okay,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: why A B and B? Why in the Berkshires? And
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: how much of other than construction? How much of the
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: day to day did you and your wife actually do?
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: I do pretty much everything and have for the last
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: twenty years. I have a staff now, even though we're
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: very small. But I'm I'm tired, I'm old, and I
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: need help. Um. In the beginning, I did everything. Um It.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: It's a be it. If you want to run a
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: good bed breakfast or a good establishment of any kind
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: that deals, you know, with people. Um, you need to
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: be obsessed with your immediate environment. I am a small,
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: detailed guy. I don't, as I said before, I don't
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: see the big picture. Um. People say, well, you know,
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: how do you go from being a producer to being
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: an innkeeper? Um? And really it's it's taking a a
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: collection of small pieces of things, bringing them all together,
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: make them work together. And then presenting it two people
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: for their enjoyment, and UM, you know that's what I
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: do here. I'm uh great attention to detail. Um we
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: we kind of pioneered the concept of a wired bed
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: and breakfast. UM. Now, everybody has a lot of conveniences,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: but in two thousand one, there wasn't There probably wasn't
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: a bet breakfast in certainly in the county. UM that
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: offered DVD players in the room, big screen TVs, full
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: cable WiFi, you know, um Bose wave radios which were
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: cutting edge twenty years ago. Uh, and cook to order
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: breakfasts really full cook to order breakfast. I love making
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: breakfast and and it's a big part of our reputation.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: People talk about it. People come here for the first
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: time and say, boy, I can't wait to have the
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: tomlet because that's my specialty, the tomlet. It's fun. It's
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: been great. So you've yourself cooked the breakfast absolutely every
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: day for twenty years. Okay, but that you know, when
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: you own it in you're working seven days a week.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: That's right. Except you know, until this year, we have
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: a slow season this year because of the virus. We
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: had the biggest August September, October and November that we've
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: ever had. I don't you know. People people get cabin fever,
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: they have to get away. But normally it's it's very
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: slow from January to May. So we travel, you know,
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: we get we come to l A see you know,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: we read a house on the Venice Canal, have a
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: great time my son, and we get some time off. Um. Otherwise,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: it's it's fun. It's great to meet people. You know.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: When I was producing, I would hide away in the
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: control room and I didn't want to see people. People
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: wanted to give me tapes back then, and I said, no,
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: I really don't want to meet this guy because he's
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: just gonna want something from me. Yeah, and he was.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't particularly anxious to see anybody. When
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: I got here. I had to learn, and I did
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: learn quickly how to be more of a people person.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: And I would see somebody drive up who was going
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: to check in, and I said, oh, she's I gotta
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: deal with these people now, and they'd come in. We'd
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: start to talk h and they'd have a story. Everyone
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: has a story, and it's interesting, it's really interesting. I
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: learned to listen to other people at least for a
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: few minutes, you know, after fifty five years, and I
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: really have enjoyed this. We've we've met a lot of
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: interesting people here, really interesting people. And we've had a
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: few Yeah, before he was nuts, we had Juliani here,
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: We've had we've had some really some some good musicians here.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: We had Densmore from the Doors. We've had Bonnie Ray,
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: we had God, We've had actors and authors, musicians. It's
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: been great, it's really been great. We're very low key,
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: we're very under the radar. We do not advertise. It's
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: all word of mouth, and we've we've gotten awards. Um,
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: I'm ready to I'm ready to have a dog now. Okay,
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: So how do people find out about it? Originally word
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: of mouth. That took us three or four years to
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: build up a big enough clientele so that we actually
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: made a profit. And in it's heyday for the next
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: ensuing fifteen seventeen years, was it a real business? Could
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: you make real money? Yeah, we still make a profit.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: It's not a lot, but it pretty much pays for
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: our lives. Why A B and B To begin with, Well,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: we had stayed at B and B's and I always thought,
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: why why is a B and B set up so
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: that if your room has a radio in it, you
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: feel fortunate? I mean, why does it have to be
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: part of the B and B experience to have nothing?
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: You know? The deal is that the B and B
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: came about because people would inherit huge houses from their
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: parents and they couldn't afford to pay the taxes, so
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: they started taking in borders and they didn't have a
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: lot of money. You know, they put a china wash
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: basin in the room, and you know, some nice drapes,
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: and they throw fabric over everything in the house, fabric everywhere,
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: and so people didn't really establish B and b's. They
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: didn't have the money to establish b and bs. We did,
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: so I thought, well, it's it's about time that that
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: somebody offered people a chance to either commune with nature,
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: sit by the stream, or stay in bed and you know,
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: watch movies and check their email. Um. So, so I
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: think we were the first luxury bed and breakfast anywhere. Okay,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: so you're it's eleven months till you leave because you're
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: training the new owners. No, the new owners are you know,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: I can't talk about them right now. Um, they're from
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: l A. They there, they were guests here. They loved it,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: and you know, they asked for right at first refusal
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: and eventually they they wanted to move. Uh. They were
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: in there in the kind of position that we were in.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: Although they're doing well, Uh, there's there's there's not the
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: same uh situation. Uh. They're not saying, well, this is over,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: I need to do something else. They're saying, I want
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: to do something else. So I'm gonna be kind of
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: consulting and teaching uh them how to run the place.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: We are moving literally a mile away. We're moving down
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: the street. It's it's a gorgeous street. It's in the country.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: We found a wonderful house and we had to buy
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: it a month ago because there's a huge land rush
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: on here. You know, people from the city are moving
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: up and we couldn't have we had to buy it
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: then because we would have lost it. So we have
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: to own it, pay taxes and mortgage on it for
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 1: a year. But it gives us a chance to work
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: on it. And I am more than ready to retire.
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: All my friends retired ten years ago. Okay, just because
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: you went back to the buship Berkshire's East coast, West coast. Well,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: I loved l A. I didn't know anything about it. Um.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: You know, it was during in color. We had a
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: day off and I took a walk. I walked up
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: from the Sunset Marquis to Sunset Boulevard and it was
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: very quiet, beautiful, calm, blue sky. I was walking along
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: the sidewalk, and all of a sudden it dawned on me.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: I said, schmuck, you could live here. You could actually
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: live here. And I went back and I said, I
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: told my boss. He said, you know, I think I
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: could make much I could make better records in l A.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: I'd be much happier and more productive. He said, you
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: want to move to l A. We'll move you. And
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: so you know, I uh, we we went to l A.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: I loved it. I loved I still love it twenty
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: years worth. Um, we were there for twenty three years.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: We lived just between Mulholland and Ventura in Laurel Canyon
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: and it was heaven. But um, it may sound cruel,
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: but one thing I think is that if you don't
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: have to be in l A, probably should be. Um.
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: It's so hard to get around now, but you know,
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: you have to plan strategically when you're gonna go where
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: you're gonna go or else, it takes you two hours
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: to get there. Um, and everybody has ways, you know.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: A friend of mine said, when I first saw ways
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: and he demonstrated it from me years ago, I said,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 1: that is fantastic, What an amazing development this is. He said, well,
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: you know it's good. It'll take you. It'll take you
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: around a circuitous route and put you on an unfamiliar
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: street and suddenly you'll realize you're not alone, you know.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: But um, we go back every year. We have of
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: really good friends there, and I love it. It's a
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: fabulous city. California's a fabulous state. I love. I love
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: Northern California. Um, but you know, we're we're Easterners. Are
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: parents were here, they were all alive then, and um,
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: the kids are here. I love New York City. Also,
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: we're equidistance between New York and Boston, or from New
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: York and Boston. So um and Tanglewood is right down
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: the street, one of the great music venues of the world. Uh,
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: we can walk there in twelve minutes. We spent Sunday
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: afternoons on the lawn listening to the to the Boston Symphony.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: It's Heaven, you know, and and and this is a
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: blue state. Remember we live in the bluest part of
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: the bluest state in the country. I love that. That's
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: a whole another discussion. But before I let you go,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: what's your favorite record that you may I would say
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: Heaven Tonight pretty much right off the bat, and some reasons.
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: The production is great, the songs are great. Um, you
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: know you there are some. I mean, Heaven Tonight itself
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: is uh, the song it's uh about nine minutes. I
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: don't know. I just loved what I did. I like
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: I I know what my contributions were. I think they
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: were good. I think that the record was mixed well.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: I think it's it's just when I listened to I
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: don't listen to my stuff, but but on the on
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: the rare occasion that I do, um or I hear
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: something from an album on the radio, and then I
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: come back here and I go to the I go
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: to YouTube, and I listened on my computer speakers here. Um,
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: I'm impressed, you know, I'm impressed. I say, you know you,
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: you did a good job there, and I think it's okay.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: There are many albums that I listened to her, I say,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: you shouldn't have done that. This should be louder. There
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: are plenty of spots in uh, in the three Cheap
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: Trick albums that I did, where I think Bunny should
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: be louder. I think the drums should have been a
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: little louder because because of what, because of his brilliant
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: playing and the kinds of fields that he did. But anyway,
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: that's it. That's that's the one I like the best,
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: I think. Okay, Tom, thanks so much for taking time
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: out of your literally busy day. Um sort of uh
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: disappointed that I'll never get to have your breakfast you meant,
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: and I'm not really a breakfast guy, but you sold
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: it pretty well. Oh it's it's delicious, and you know,
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: look you've got You've got an invitation anytime on us.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: You know. It's uh, well, thank you. I don't know
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: if we'll be if I'll be leaving l A in
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: covid Era you right, but it'll be over in six months.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: We hope it appears that way. And um, you know
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: you could be our guest. Well, I greatly appreciate that.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: Hopefully I can do it anyway, Thanks so much for
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: doing this a lot of fun. Thank you, Bob. Until
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: next time, Mrs Bob left Sex