Latest / Birth at Work / S2 EP2 | Yusuf Ongel: How U.S. Working Parenthood Really Stacks Up
Transcript
- Krislyn Powell: I'm thrilled today we are joined by Yousef Ongel and he is our honorary first working dad to the podcast. So welcome to the show Yousef. Also, you are a founder and we are just so excited to hear your story about how you have had kids, worked and built your own business. So share it a little bit with us about who you are and why you're joining us today. Yusuf Ongel: Well, thank you so much for having me. And it's a privilege to be the first working that actually been here. It does put a little more pressure, but I'll be honest. Thank you so much again. It's great to see you. Great to be here. Yeah, I'm a founder, a small business owner, started about two and a half years ago, been predominantly in the HR tech space. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: doing sales services, sales and business development consulting services. Lived in a few countries, a lot of relocation. I have two boys. My younger one just turned nine last week and my elder one is 16. So we have the challenges of having a teenager and a teenage life and then we have a nine year old still like in between. playing with toys and at the stage of like, I don't want to play with that toy anymore kind of stage, which is sometimes really hurting me, like seeing that kids stop playing with toys. But that's in a nutshell about myself and yeah, pleased to be here. Krislyn Powell: Yes, I am so excited to have you. I love that you are describing like the kid phase and then moving into the teen phase. I feel like, you know, I've got the four year old and the six month old, very different phases, but I'm in a different phase of life than that. But there's all these shifts and changes with kids. They're always challenging us, right? They're always keeping us on our toes and it's like a different kid almost every day, I feel like. Yusuf Ongel: It is true, yeah. Krislyn Powell: So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and let's hear a little bit more about your career journey too. So you tried trade unions teaching commodity sales even before HR tech. So where were you in your parenthood journey when you had transitions in your career? And how much did becoming a parent influence those career decisions? Yusuf Ongel: Yeah, well, I guess I did a, I took a kind of non-linear career path across different industries. And like I mentioned, a couple of different countries, relocations and everything. And every time you move down somewhere, especially with kids, it's quite a pain to be honest, like finding the sweet spot for yourself. But, you know, eventually I was an entrepreneur years ago and I ended up where I was years later after working at different, you know, industries. During my time at trade union, I actually took some voluntary, you know, MA classes and to educate myself about labor economics. That was like one of the things I really was curious and wanted to learn more about. I'm still into that space to be honest. This is why I really see a lot of value in what you are doing here. The bottom line is, know, parenting or parental rights is not just, you know, a perk or something. It is basically labor rights and human rights that we are talking about here. So, you know, after relocations and being on career survival modes for multiple years, I went through multiple phases with my kids as well. So I have eight year gap between my two sons. One of them is 16, the other one is nine. And obviously, you know, when I had my elder one, I was an entrepreneur and building a business back then, I unfortunately didn't have the time, the privilege of witnessing his growth and all the phases of being a child. I was heads down in business, which I still feel guilty about. But then with my second son born, I exit that business, started working remotely, and now I literally felt every single bit of being a father and being involved in family matters and observing and witnessing a kid's growth every step, every word that comes out their mouth, it's priceless. It's priceless, because at the end of the day, what I realized was it doesn't really matter how long hours you work, the only people that will remember Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: how hardworking you were, are your kids when you do overtime. Like people, companies, employers, coworkers, they won't remember that you spend nights working, but your kids will feel your absence. So I kind of felt both stages with both of them, with one of them not being around, with the other one always around, always present, and I think that's the privilege. Krislyn Powell: you get it. You understand the importance of the family dynamics and about supportive partners. And I think when we're having this conversation, we're looking to broaden it with safe men, right, that understand and appreciate the family dynamic. And another reason why I invited you onto the show is because we had a sales interaction between the two of us where you were selling a product and the company that I was with was looking to purchase that product. And that sales interaction that I had with you and the relationship that you had built with our company was just... like unbelievably different than any other sales interaction that I'd ever experienced. And you and I remain connected after that. And I just have a lot of respect for you, not only the way that you parent, but also the way that you build business and interact with clients and coworkers. And so I'm excited to continue to dive into this, but I thought it was worth a mention for our listeners, Yeah, absolutely. And let's talk about that parental leave that you took of sorts, you know, with your second, like, what did that look like for you? How was it different? And what were you surprised about? Because you mentioned like with your first, you didn't really get to be present for all of those developments. so how was it, how was that contrast between the two? Yusuf Ongel: Thank you so much. Yeah, well, my experience was quite different for a couple of reasons I slightly mentioned. One, we were in the middle of a relocation when my second one was born, moving up to Russia from Turkey. And then I was in the middle of transitioning out of a business and starting a remote work. I think the PTO numbers didn't really significantly matter in my life, but the biggest click that I felt was parenthood was not just about time off, it was total identity shift in my opinion. Because you're learning a baby, you are learning your partner in different phases of the journey with your relationship and it's all transactions, like your transaction with your kid, your transactions with your spouse. in the middle of all these, your transactions with your coworkers, your employers and everything, and you have to kind of juggle across all of them. But the biggest thing was not about taking time off, like parenthood was not time off, parenthood was learning to be present at all times, not just the times that the kid needed you or your spouse needed you, it's all about being there and I don't want to use the word support and I'm really having a hard time finding the right word or like supporting your spouse or supporting your partner or helping your partner out with this in this journey. Because I think I've always found that word kind of not defining the terms clearly because to help someone you have to clearly define the roles like Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: to support my wife or my partner in bringing up a child, that means I'm automatically assigning the responsibilities of child upbringing to my spouse. And I don't want to use the term support or word or support the family there, because I am part of it. Whatever I do is not supporting the family. I am part of that structure myself. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, it's so refreshing that you say that too. what almost comes to mind for me is like, it's a team, right? It's a team dynamic. So I don't know if that helps, but like, I'm thinking of, I grew up playing sports. And so that just like for me is like, each, we have our roles, but we're working towards the same goal. Yusuf Ongel: Indeed. Krislyn Powell: And it's not just like, hey, you know, your wife is doing everything and you're there cheering her on. You're not in the stands going, yay, good job. You know, I support you. You're there, like you're in it too. So. Yusuf Ongel: Indeed. And I heard actually listening to your podcast, I heard a few people also highlighting the piece about, what a nice father, like what a thoughtful father kind of taking their kids to playground or spending time with their kids, going for a walk with their kids. Mothers are doing that all day long and they don't get praised enough. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: I think the society should shift the mindset a little bit still. It feels like we're getting there now that we are vocal about these kind of things. But that's where I'm standing in general. It's a mindset shift. Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I fully support that. think that's really relevant that you're bringing that up too, is like, there is a lot of praise that dads get for simply showing up, but the moms do it and it's like an invisible labor that's not noticed. And if we had, and what I believe we should work towards, as you're saying, is that perspective shift of like recognizing that they're both there as co-collaborators in raising this child, right? And also respecting that dads do things differently and in different ways that are good and needed, and moms do things differently in different ways that are good and needed. And when they're together, working together to raise this child, it's a really beautiful thing, but it's not one or the other. It doesn't work as collaboratively if the other person's holding up all of the weight, right? Yusuf Ongel: Yeah, yeah, totally agree Krislyn Powell: I'm curious how you navigated co-parenting with your partner. And when you saw that shift, when you were able to be more present, how did those conversations go with your wife? What are some takeaways that our listeners can get from this conversation? Yusuf Ongel: Absolutely. So I think one critical and important piece to mention is when we become parents, we are new to the business. Like we don't have previous experience, so there is no right or wrong. Basically, you have to communicate and you might end up at a point where Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: you mutually split the responsibilities or one of the parties actually taking more responsibility on the kids. It could be a traditional split model, but the bottom line is communicating throughout the process and having relocated multiple times in three countries, having no family members actually supporting, that's the support, not the father support, like family members, like. grandparents or, you know, relatives supporting in, you know, in, times of needs. We, we were literally lack of that support, especially when we moved down to the U S and we had some times that I was out of business. Sometimes that my wife was out of business and we literally every time crisis situation, let's say whatever we consider it. We had to communicate, hey, I'm taking full responsibility of kids' schedules, their schools, their communications with schools, and whatever is happening in their life, their friends, I'll take them anywhere. So you just focus on working and paying the bills, obviously, when I was out of business, which happened, by the way, for nearly a year, I was literally completely 100 % involved in the kids' needs, and my wife was completely focused on... Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: her career. And then another year, like she was like out of business or she was working part time, whatever, and she would take responsibility and I could just heads down build the business that I have today, especially two and a half years ago. I literally counted on her taking care of kids and we communicated this. I think eventually, you know, needs change. Krislyn Powell: Wow. Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: the structures change and you just do what's best for the family and it just comes down to communicating with your partner. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate how you mentioned the ebbs and flows too. Like sometimes she needed to be heads down in her business or the company that she was supporting and she needed to work to make an income for your family. And so you took that responsibility on where you were home and you were supporting the kids and making sure that she could have that freedom to do that. And then vice versa, when you were building your business, there was times when you needed that support too. I think that's, you know, I feel that deeply, like my husband and I have shared that. And it's, you know, our path has gone, it's been very squiggly, right? We've switched roles multiple times. And the communication aspect, what you're describing, being able to consistently have those conversations where it's clear, like, okay, it looks like we might be pivoting again. What can we do here to... take on the right roles where our family is thriving. So wow, just really important that you're sharing that with us today. Yusuf Ongel: Yeah, I guess we didn't treat the process itself as an ideology. We treated it like an operation. So what needs to get done? Who owns it? How do we adjust to this life situation now? What are the possible outcomes of this adjustment? Whatever. It's a full operation, not ideology and sticking to it and kind of like having traditional approach all the time you have to switch. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, and like you said, parenting, we're new to the business. Let's figure out how the operations are running. So speaking of another support factor, like you mentioned family, but childcare is another one that plays into things and really can make or break a dynamic and just affect the way the operations are run in the family. So speak a little bit to that with the childcare experiences that you've had. Yusuf Ongel: Absolutely. Krislyn Powell: There's a lot of challenges that working parents face with that, whether it's affordable childcare or childcare in the area that they trust. What was it like for you and how has that shaped your parenthood journey? Yusuf Ongel: I think I'm taking advantage of working remotely at its full scope here when it comes down to childcare. We, like for both of my kids, when they were at the childcare age, yes, we actually seeked for whatever we could afford financially, but childcare is not all about financial capabilities. It's also about mentally being ready or prepared for, you know, childcare and especially in workspaces mentally being prepared is, you know, picking up your kids time or how does it interfere with your schedule? It's not just about, you don't want to drop your kid for nine hours all day long, but how are you going to manage your 50-50, half of the day with your kid around, going and picking up your kid and still delivering the outcomes for the business as well. think our biggest challenge was not even combining it with work or financially being ready. was, especially in the US, not having the support that we needed anytime we needed someone to take care of our kids. And the reality is even if you are working with a child care center Child care is not just about dropping your kids for a few hours somewhere. It might be in the evening Very simple you want to go out for a date and you have kids and you have no one to look after your kids when you're out and As a couple you need to have a date night. I Mean let's be vocal about it. We are parents, but we also want to live a life as a couple and you know, get away from kids for maybe an hour or two and take a breath and refresh and come back, miss them, hug them, kiss them. So I think the mental piece of childcare is that. we literally were lack of that for years until the kids started to grow that to like, we were comfortable enough to leave them alone. Like 16 year old and nine year old now, we can easily leave them home for a couple of hours and go out. But yeah, again, things settle, but it takes time. I don't know, like, that's probably what I can say. Like, take some time mentally for yourself, even as a parent. There will be times you want to spend with your kids. Take time off from work and spend with your kids. There will be times that you want to spend for yourself. Take time off from your kids and spend with your spouse. or for yourself. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that's such good advice. think sometimes, like you said, it's a little bit of mental gymnastics of like, am I ready to let the kids be watched by someone else? Are they ready? Do we trust that person? Do we have the financial means? When do we work this into our schedule? There's so many sort of hoops to jump through. But at the root of it, like you mentioned, it is important to have your own mental health and space and hobbies. And it's important to have that one-on-one time with your spouse for the developing and building and nurturing of your relationship. And if you don't have happy parents, you don't have happy kids, right? So. Yusuf Ongel: Indeed. Absolutely. Yeah, that's the entire Krislyn Powell: Yeah, so great advice. Yeah, yeah, I it's just, it's really important. And sometimes it can be tough finding the right care. But like you said, just just making it priority, I think is what I'm hearing from you. Yusuf Ongel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then, of course, there's the other aspect of like childcare in the middle of your work day and you have to take your kids somewhere. It could be their soccer game, it could be their dentist, their doctor visit. And I think part of the reason that I have been, I have had this... entrepreneur mindset and running my own business as much as I can is because I don't want to feel guilty because I'm taking my kid to soccer game and taking a couple of hours from business. I can compensate it, but unfortunately, you know, overtime is not seen, but if you are missing for a couple of hours, it's frustrating that it is noticeable. It's noticed by leadership. And it can just, you know, circle back to you. And I really hated that piece in the corporate world. And I try to avoid that with my people. Like, just do whatever you want with your kids. You don't have to let me know. Don't feel guilty because you need to spend a couple of days with your kid. I don't know. I have this kind of spreadsheet, let's say that throughout my career journey, companies that I worked, the good things that I really liked at these companies, note down to implement the things that really gave me discomfort, note down, do not implement this kind of a thing. Kind of. I really have that list. And Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: you know, the things we do today are the outcomes of what we experienced in the past, obviously. And I try to give the flexibility as much as possible to people working with me, my employees, and I don't know, work-life balance piece, I'm not a firm believer in work-life balance as a term by itself. Like as an entrepreneur, I know if I want to build something, I have to really sacrifice on my life and focus on work a little bit and then maybe pivot back to life and balance things out that way as much as you can but that's where you need someone to actually cooperate with you, your spouse in balancing things out. You focus on work in my life, I'm the one focusing on work and the life piece is my wife and we're happy that way for example. Just because I don't have work-life balance myself I can't expect my people not to have work-life balance, people working with me. So I don't want anyone to work after hours. I don't want anyone to do overtime. I really don't need anyone to sacrifice their relationship for their kids. I have a vivid example on that flexibility piece. Like one of my team members could easily come to me and say, hey, like, It's just a conversation and she tells me that she won't be in the office for a couple of days. I'm like, good, like what's happening? Is everything all right? Yeah, I'm going on a vacation with my daughter for a couple of days and we felt like we needed this time as mother and daughter. I was like, that's beautiful. I mean, I don't have to know that you are gonna be out of office for two days for as long as you have settled down everything and you are delivering everything yourself. But the beauty is that She wasn't feeling any guilt sharing that she will be away for two days, not for health reasons, not for school reasons. It's just literally for fun with her daughter and she could confidently, calmly share that with me and I was like, this is it, this is what it should be, this is what I have been trying to build and thank God I could build it. I think... Krislyn Powell: Mm-hmm. Yusuf Ongel: Especially for working parents, that should be kind of the flexibility that they need, not just doctor visits, not just PTOs. At the end of the day, our kids' school schedule is not working based on our work schedule. We have to be around, and we should have the flexibility as people, as humans, as parents, to take some time off to spend with our kids, and no guilt. I think that's how shaped my experience historically, yes, has shaped my perspective and that's what's happening across my company now. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yeah, like you said, that's really beautiful. And I think too, something that's resonating for me is that, I mean, the majority of work parents that I know, and I would include myself, I'd include you, is just that we would describe our careers as high achieving. Like we're hard workers, we put in overtime, we hit success metrics and we deliver. And I think there is often that element in the corporate atmosphere where, like you said, despite the overtime, despite the success metrics, despite, you know, hitting all of these bars, if we're missing for a couple hours, then that gets knocked. Or if we were to take time off to do something for personal reasons, that's seen as like a weakness instead of how you described it, really beautiful and actually taking time to do things for fun or spending time on relationships that matter. equates to a more fulfilling career and better deliverables on the work side too. So I think that there needs to be more recognition there and the sense of like taking time to be with the people that you love or delivering on that side with family is not a sign of weakness but rather strength. So I think it's really, really awesome that you have created a workplace that's safe and supportive and parents feel comfortable. sharing that with you. So I also know it seems like what you've been describing too is like there's a sense of predictability in your schedule and the way that you worked. You respect your time. You also respect others time that work with you. And how do you build that kind of predictability and respect for time in business operations? And when do you personally, I know you said you're very focused on your work and have a high bar for yourself, but When do you set boundaries? How do you know when to say no and to step away? What does that look like for you personally? Yusuf Ongel: I think that that's part of being a leader or being a manager and a manager's responsibilities, you know, communicating things with their people accurately, timely, and not wasting the time for anyone. Like, you know, it is absolutely coming through rhythm and communication. I do have with every team member, other than the group sessions that we have or org-wide meetings we have, I have one-on-ones every week with every single team member. And I think I try to respect their time and not move it around. doesn't matter how hectic my schedule is. Because I don't think anybody will ever say no when their manager wants to move the meeting around and puts it on their lunchtime. Or it could be a time that they planned to spend with their kids in this case And you don't want to put them in a difficult tough situation to say no to their child or to their manager So I don't move around the meetings Never almost never skip the meetings No last-minute schedules like typically They would get a 24-hour minimum notification and if it's not working, we can move it around no problem Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: No meeting that doesn't have any purpose. We are very straightforward about that. And I do talk about, speaking of purpose, it's not always about business purpose. It might be talking about their mental health, talking about their family. I mean, I know every single employee and I know their families. I know their kids, their kids' name. I try to remember their kids' birthdays and send a celebration. card for their kids' their birthday, their spouse's birthday. I try to remember all of those. I don't, technology is out there. Set up reminders. It's going to remind you anyways. So the purpose of a meeting can be basically talking about their family and their challenges, their needs, or whatever they want to talk about as well. But no meeting without any purpose. And we acknowledge that we are not always available. I mean, we're talking about parents, especially parents, they may not be available. Kids hurt themselves. Kids feel hurt. They need their parents sometimes with them. Or in the example I gave, you might want to go do some overtime with your kid and have a vacation. We talked about this being operations. You do some overtime at work and just surprise your kid with a two day vacation. consider that over time for the family and you might want to do that. Not everybody should always be available and we recognize that flexibility is great. I mean we are flexible as much as possible but we do that flexibility in a structural way so that it is sustainable let's say. Krislyn Powell: Yeah, that makes sense. And that predictability that, you know, that trust seems like is what you are working to actively build with your team and also just the thoughtfulness that you have communicated throughout your leadership as well. I'm curious, you must feel in building your own business a commitment to continuing to build and grow and you have goals that you're looking to hit. I feel like there's a juxtaposition between hustle culture, like maybe going too far one way, but also meeting those goals. Like how do you, what's your philosophy on balancing that within your organization and as a leader? Yusuf Ongel: Hustle culture is, it's not a business. I don't think it's a business culture. It can be a personal perspective or personal personality, not business culture. You cannot expect, I just recently saw a company in my network, somebody leaving some negative review on Reddit or Glass, I don't remember. This employee is complaining that they were required to work 14 hours a day and this is a tech startup. and sharing negative experience that they were even asking for weekends. Just because you are, the founder, a hustler, you cannot expect every single person to actually care for your business as much as you do. If you don't care their families, if you don't care about their lives, why do you expect them? How come you can expect them to care for your business? I think the balance there is understanding you might be the biggest hustler yourself, but be fair. understand that you're working with people and they don't have to actually give anything more than they're supposed to to your business. You know, there's no proof commitment concept in business. If you take care of your people and we know a bunch of examples of, you know, this kind of cultures, some of the biggest retailers in the United States, they don't have a hustle culture. They have a caring culture. And they have 40 years of commitment from their employees because they take care of their employees and they take care of their employees' families. So if you really want to, if you want your employees to take care of your business, you have to first start taking care of them and their families. And just quit the hustle mindset as a business. You can have your hustle mindset as individual, as a business owner, but don't expect the same things from them. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Adults and children are different, but it makes me think about that. we're talking about being working parents and when I approach my even just four-year-old, right, with a mindset of like, I care about you, I want to listen to you, let's play, let's make this fun, he's much more willing to do things. And so I think the way that you pointed it out, psychologically speaking, if you show that you care and you act with care with your employees, then you know, without expectation, they're going to go above and beyond because they trust you. And it's a fun environment. It's a joyful environment. It's a positive environment to be in. And you're going to get everything that you expected from them and more just naturally. Like that's I think that's something that is a refreshing way to look at it. And it's something that more people are talking about now is is, you know, if you go about it the right way, you actually get more than you want. Right. Whereas if you or to roll with an iron fist and not make it a joyful atmosphere, then you're gonna get less than you expect. Yusuf Ongel: Yeah. Well, we don't, we don't need anyone parenting us and pointing finger at us at the workplace anymore. That's, that's outdated. And, you know, transaction between an employee and an employer is naturally a human transaction. And there's the, you know, transactional analysis, psychology. It's basically if you parent them, Krislyn Powell: Right. Yusuf Ongel: you are going to see either a child responding, rebellion or rebellious, an adopted child or a free child not caring your business. But if you talk to them adult to adult showing that what matters is now and here, then you're going to get someone who is adult. So you don't want to deal with parents at work. You don't want to deal with Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: kids, children, psychology at work, you have to treat them as adults. And the hustle culture, do believe hustle culture is actually putting pressure on people saying, hey, I'm the parent here. I get to decide what gets done, how it gets done, and you just do it and do it more and more over and over. And then people start to actually react to that as kids because they don't like being criticized. don't want to be as grownups. We don't like. being told what to do, how much to do it. So you have to find the fine line treating your people as adults, as individuals, in a psychological manner as well. Like, you know, this is a transaction between two grownups, two adults. And you have to avoid that hustle culture, not to hurt the relationship, the transaction here. Otherwise you don't want them to feel bad about what they do. when they feel bad, if somebody is not okay in that transaction, that's not a healthy transaction. They should feel okay with whatever they're doing. You should be okay with whatever you are expecting without creating that conflict. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yeah. And I also like how you mentioned at the hustle culture. It's such a negative term, right? But at moments, business owners, like we as business owners do have to hustle, but that's an individual mindset. And that's not something that we should be portraying onto our people with pressure. So just very refreshing. And in that same breath, I'm curious about specific policies that you feel like would really benefit workplace. Yusuf Ongel: Absolutely. Krislyn Powell: environments for working parents and what you wish more employers knew about dads specifically. Yusuf Ongel: about that. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Like, I, you know, I, there's a lot of conversation coming from working moms, but I remember, I'll give an example. I remember working an employee experience for a company, sitting in a room of top performers and an employee asked about parental leave and he was a dad and he asked about basically what he would be paid while on leave and because he had sales and then commission. And he was trying to get an idea of what those benefits looked like and navigate this conversation. And he was met with some resistance as a dad. And I think it just, it should have been a clearer picture for him. And I was also privy to the conversation outside of that, where it was just the leaders speaking about his question. And I just, I think that sometimes dads feel... intimidated to speak up about their family dynamics at work. Maybe they don't feel like it's safe because they could be the sole income provider and they don't want to jeopardize anything and make it seem like, I have a family outside of work. know, like what, what did you or as you were going through it, what did you just think that would have been more helpful or supportive policies or just actions by leaders to to make you feel safe as a working father. Yusuf Ongel: God, that's a big, big pain button that you're touching now. mean, like having worked in trade unions and having taken labor economic classes and stuff and being a firm believer in human rights and labor rights, it is literally wild to me that companies are talking about four day Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: work week, unlimited PTOs and everything, but parental leave is not secured by laws and it is left to employers discretion. This is like wild. Are you kidding me? This is basic human rights. And now if a father is asking about parental leave, that's a clear indicator that the company doesn't have clear defined leave policies for both parents. And yes, when we have a kid, I'm also a parent and I also need some time off to actually settle things down. And it's unfortunate, like in some countries there are some rights by law. like coming from Turkey, I know that mothers they buy low, buy labor low, they have three months for multiple pregnancies, it's four months, no I'm sorry, four months, one pregnancy, if it's twins multiple pregnancies, now you're looking at six months, three months pre-birth, post-month, three months after birth. Fathers can get unfortunately only three days paid PTO, but you can actually take non-paid PTO and your job is secured by law, they can't fire you because you're taking two weeks time off to help the family. And let's face it, you can't settle down things in two weeks when you have a new person at home. It's just your life changes, it's completely upside down. And I think that's kind of a long way to go. Krislyn Powell: It's kind of insane, yeah. Yusuf Ongel: unfortunately still in one of the most developed countries in the world, the United States is way behind even some underdeveloped countries in terms of parental leave. If you look at Russia, I'm going to give you numbers so you won't believe it, but you get one year paid parental leave as a mother and then you can go up to three years. Krislyn Powell: Yes. Yusuf Ongel: and your job is secure, you can come back. And that's like what it should be like, to be honest, and no questions asked. What are the policies? Clear, you take your time off. One piece that is really important that you mentioned, this person you mentioned was a salesperson. Obviously, commissions, when you take time off, as a salesperson my entire career, living on commissions mostly, I was very, very concerned whenever I took my PTO. Krislyn Powell: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yusuf Ongel: because being out for two weeks means I'm getting 50 % cut on my commission, which makes a great proportion of my income. How do you treat parents when they take PTO, okay, and they take parental leave? Are you gonna compensate a salesperson's performance bonuses based on the time they are taking or based on whatever they earned over the past six months? So one of the things that I have done and I'm doing with my employees here, if they take PTO, I just take the average of their last six months commission earning and I just pay out whatever time, two weeks they're taking PTO or three weeks, I pay out the two week in commissions upfront before they take their PTO. Same thing, I don't have anyone expecting any kids now, but same thing with before parental leave as well. The thing is, like, there's so many questions about job security, parental leave, I don't know, payout commissions for so many roles out there. And we're talking about unlimited PTO. Like, don't offer unlimited PTO, just have a clear parental leave policy so people actually don't feel guilty. And having worked at companies offering unlimited PTO, I mean... I always felt guilty when I was out for a day or two. Like, I don't know, like the culture is not, I don't believe that piece of like, hey, we are offering parental leave and this is how our culture is. Parental leave should not be a culture propaganda for businesses. It's a must have. You can offer unlimited PTO and the best packages and everything, but if your people are feeling bad for taking time off, you can't talk about the culture. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Yusuf Ongel: a positive workplace culture there. And it's usually managers, naturally. It's not the entire, we're not talking about the entirety of an organization, but it's individuals making people feel bad for taking advantage of what is given as their rights. And, you know, I think, yes, have clearer defined parental leave policies, and it should not be at employees, employers' discretion. Definitely be flexible, flexible without any penalty. If possible, absolutely offer childcare support because we are living in a country getting the most immigrants and this is the working class immigrants and they have kids and trust me, when you first move down to a new country, it is 10 times more difficult. you know, to get by and you want to support your people and their childcare. Partial help even makes a big difference, by the way. And then normalize, leave for that. We are parents, yes. I mean, we want to be there, but give us the chance to be there. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. I really appreciate you getting into that because I think you hit the nail on the head with some of the things you just shared, mainly it being a basic human right to have parental leave. And that a lot of times in our day and age, is touted as like... the culture grab, right? Like come work for our company, we have parental leave. That's not, like, it should be basic rights. And so I just appreciated everything that you described there as far as policies, the way that they're enacted, and also recognizing that like dads are parents too. And it is very tricky navigating when you bring a new human into the home and what that looks like. So. Yusuf Ongel: Yes. Krislyn Powell: So it's just been such a refreshing conversation, Yusef, and you sharing how you've built your business, your experiences as a working father, policies in other countries versus the country, well, the US that we're kind of talking about right now and where we both reside. But I would love to just close with a couple... Concluding questions one being like how do we find out more about your business? How can we support you? What how can we learn about your what you're doing? So first share that with us and then if you would just share a little bit about The future of working parents like what you were looking forward to to end our show on a positive note Yusuf Ongel: Absolutely. So where to find me? I'm on LinkedIn, Yusuf Ongel. My business website is XDRhub.com, standing for BDR, STR abbreviations. And if any one of our listeners is actually one of... my possible solution buyers, I'll anyway find them, I'll call them, that's what I do. And I called ColdU as you remember five years ago. So, about what, you know, your second question. Krislyn Powell: Yes. Yusuf Ongel: the dream world, let's say for actually parents is just accept that, you know, if a culture, if workplace culture is punishing people for using the policies, you don't have effective policies. except that dads are naturally parents and they're not helping someone at home to bring up a child. So consider dads. But my hope is that one day we will have the parental leave as a federal law that every single employer actually has to offer to both mothers and fathers. Doesn't really matter if it's foster care, an adopted child, whatever. Parents get their parental leave by law. And it just puts a full stop to this conversation. This being a culture, you know, propaganda. It is just a human rights and we have, I'm hoping that we will see it in our laws. And that's what I can say. Krislyn Powell: Yeah. Thank you so much. Just really just refreshing the topics that you brought up. Thank you for pioneering a lot of things, even like the example that you brought up of averaging commissions and paying that out to your employees on leave who work in sales. I just think so many things of what you mentioned we're all fighting for as working parents and just continuing the conversation as a step. So it's been lovely to have you today and so excited that. You have been on the show. Thank you, Yusef, for joining us. Yusuf Ongel: It's been lovely to be here. Thank you so much.