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Pretty Boys Like Trap Music · Cobra Lily

• Ella Simone: I'm so glad you brought that up because I too am fascinated with white suburban kids' obsession with the hood and Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: street culture and rap. on the one hand, to build up any kind of real self-esteem, I think a person has to see themselves rise above adversity. the sanitized suburban safe existence that's is the reality for so many people and so many young boys is really not scratching that itch to to prove oneself. the kind of ethic of getting money and hustling and stuff, that is like a direct reflection of one's worth. you wanted the money, I got the money. it's kind of like creating this video game simulation idea of your reality in which it is down to resource accumulation. I think kids who grew up with everything kind of struggle to see, especially men, what they bring to the table. And so to think about living in the hood where it is much higher stakes. I think Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: it kind of creates a simulated reality in the way that war video games create a simulated Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: reality of like we're down to survival. And there's something kind of thrilling about that. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Hi guys, welcome back to the Cobra Lily podcast. I'm Ella and I'm here with my lovely co-host Maria. Maria: Hello Ella, how are you doing? Ella Simone: I'm in a really good mood. How are you? Maria: Doing really good. And I'm really happy to because we're here with our straight mail correspondent guy. How are you doing, Guy? Mm-hmm. Guy: Feeling Ella Simone: Yes. Guy: good. Ready to correspond. Maria: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: I'm so glad to hear that. Class is in session. We're so back. And if you missed last week's episode, we talked about this book called The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love by visionary feminist thinker Bill Hooks. and we're gonna do a part two of that episode right now because we just had so much to say. But to give you a quick synopsis, the will to change is basically a feminist critique of feminism and the ways in which feminism fails to appeal to or include men did you guys want to add anything about that? Maria: Just that I'm really excited to talk about how we raise boys. And I'm excited to hear your thoughts about this too, guy. Guy: I think there's a couple of quotes that Bell Hooks talks about in just addressing this topic throughout the book that are really interesting to me. This is one, no one talks about the role patriarchal notions of manhood play in teaching boys that it is in their nature to kill, then teach them that there is nothing they can do to change this fact, as long as their masculinity is intact. As our culture prepares males to embrace war, they must all be more indoctrinated into thinking it is their nature to kill. And that was very interesting for me to read. Cause I mean I know I talked about this a bit in the last episode. I grew up in a pretty patriarchal just community, household. we were also very religious. So I think that there's kind of this clash that happens there where, it's in our nature to kill, but also it's bad. Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: And we're not supposed to do that if we want to live, you know, by Christian values. And I feel like there's especially in the US, there's a lot of men who kind of feel that tension and conflict. growing up, I definitely think violence was a big part of just how I interacted with other boys, especially after adolescence. And I don't know, for me there's always this thought in the back of my mind of like how much of this is nature versus nurture. If like if I was raised in a different society, different time, different culture, would I have gotten more or less joy, pleasure out of that? Maria: I feel like even if you're not raised in that mentality, if it suits you or it suits your personality you're gonna spring back and be like, It benefits me, so I'm gonna go back to that because I'm dissatisfied with my current society. So I feel like it's very dependent on how satisfied the family is and the person is with like the patriarchy, if that makes Guy: Yeah, and it kinda goes back to what I was talking about last episode of like I feel like the people who buy into this system the most are the ones who stand to benefit from it. And it kinda creates this Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: self perpetuating cycle. I know we talked about this book being written in the two thousands two thousands was like Iraq war, that whole mess in the Middle East I was six at the time that this book came out. I feel like war, at least in the US, has lost a lot of cultural credibility. Honestly, even among men, just because of all that happening. And it's just it's so blatantly obvious that war is not this noble thing that you go off to do to pr to Maria: Yeah. Guy: defeat the forces of evil. This kind of the narrative that gets sold to a lot of boys growing up is that like, yes, you need to be violent, but it's always for a good cause. And I Maria: Yeah. Guy: think that notion has just been complete not completely destroyed, but it's taken a pretty big hit in modern times. Ella Simone: Yeah, Bellhooks has this other quote that I really like. Patriarchy both creates the rage in boys and then contains it for later use, making of resource to exploit later on as boys become men. As a national product, this rage could be garnered to further imperialism, hatred, and oppression of women and men globally. This rage is needed if boys are to become men willing to travel around the world to fight wars without ever demanding that other ways of solving conflict be found. I mean that's definitely a bar, and I think that definitely was true. And if you look at the way the military advertises itself and recruits and the messaging they use, they're still using this kind of we need to spread Christian democracy around, I mean, no one really buys that anymore. I think every generation realizes that America is not the good guy in its own way. And I don't think this quote is as relevant today. However, I do think it's interesting the widespread popularity of video games like COD, World of Warcraft, and all the newer ones that I don't know of the names of, but they're centered around war. does that scratch some kind of psychological itch for men? Do you think it's more of a socialized thing? why is that so appealing? Guy: I'll say when just speaking for myself, when I was a kid, I played Call of Duty like nonstop. especially the game I played a lot was centered around World War Two. And I think one of the things that really gripped me about it was you can play these games that are incredibly violent and in your head you're like, well, I'm killing Nazis virtually. So like I don't have to feel bad about it. Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: I would argue everyone has this to a certain extent. but this is part of your brain that's like there's some sort of righteous vengeance that you Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: get to enact and kind of making making the world right by whatever your definition is of that. And I think there's a lot of men who would sacrifice pretty much anything for a cause that they really believed in. And I think there's kind of a death of that in modern society. So I think a lot of these games kind of hit on that. Also, a Ella Simone: Interesting. Guy: lot of men who play these games, they're more in it for like the competitive aspect of it. And they don't really I don't think they really think Maria: Yeah. Guy: that much about the grander, like story. They're just they just play online and just wanna like be better at shooting other people virtually. Maria: this is kind of something that I was thinking about as you guys were talking about like men and war and how we're not really don't have this idea of like war anymore. sometimes you'll see like these businessy guys that are very warlike about business and they have these Guy: yeah. Maria: weird mantras and they're just like, I'm gonna dominate today, I'm gonna eliminate. It's just very like warlike violent mentality, like they think about business as going to war. The first thing that comes to mind is like World of Wall Street where they do that weird motion that feels like warlike. ain't like like primal Guy: Yeah. Maria: warlike shit. So like Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: I still feel like those compulsions are there. It's just that with the knowledge Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: of, yeah, war is stupid. Ella Simone: Yeah, my favorite show of all time, Succession, takes place in the upper worlds of finance and tech. And all the language is very vulgar. They say the word fuck probably 30 times an episode. And all the business deals are spoken about in terms of I'm gonna fuck you, dude. I'm gonna fuck your company so hard. And it feels very tribalistic in that way. And they have this kind of Warrior ethos about them. Even though they do be, going on Microsoft Teams and sending emails, which is arguably kind of feminine. I think they do see themselves as like crusading for something, but the sad part is that the something is just the bottom line of a company. There's no, at least in my estimation, higher meaning to it. And I think therein lies the problem, is that. I think there is this huge crisis of meaning among everyone, but especially young men who I think have been socialized to feel that I need to sacrifice for something, like you said, or I'd be willing to sacrifice for something, but what? Guy: Yeah. Maria: just making sure that we're all following the same track. Basically, we raise young men to be very violent because we want to store that energy for later, but then there's nothing actually to give that energy to. And that's something I see all the time too, where I see men who have learned to bottle their anger as like a secret power source for like motivation later. Even something as simple like go to the gym, get yourself as raged up as possible, and then like kill a paper, right? So I think that that like plays a role in it too. Like There's just no place for them to direct their anger. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Yeah, I'm pretty tapped into underground rap and the biggest genre right now is called Rage. I mean it's still rap is a subgenre but it kind of is what it sounds like. And it has the kind of ethos of punk and metal and that it's unfiltered raw energy. And yeah, I think I think men, evidenced by the fact that so many of them get diagnosed with ADHD when they're seven years old, have a lot of energy and modern sanitized society doesn't accommodate that. Freud always wrote about the concept of energy he would describe it as libido and he would say like when it doesn't have an outlet, it gets turned in on the self and often turns into self hatred or depression or extreme self criticism because it has nowhere else to go, so it has to kind of sink its claws into something, Maria: Yeah. I think Freud had some had some real amazing points there because I think about how many people are hurting in a society that's supposed to be very physical and isn't anymore. And I think that's actually a good place to kind of talk about too, like how a lot of people see this and they want to break it. Bell Hooks is essentially saying that a lot of feminist women who did actually end up birthing boys, they found themselves reluctant to challenge conventional aspects of the patriarchy because it just took up too much time. And this is something I've actually talked about before whenever I've talked to people about what it's like to have an emotionally immature parent. a lot of the times, like it's not because there's something inherently wrong with the parent. If you're a single mom, You might be like a emotionally neglectful to your child. And that's not necessarily because it's your fault. It's because you might have two or three jobs just to be able to put food on the table for this child. Right? It takes an immense amount of energy and emotional nuance to teach young men about the patriarchy. And if you have limited resources, there's not much you can do at that point. Ella Simone: what you're saying is like even if you raise your kid in an anti patriarchal household and try not to Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: enforce these ideas about being macho and not showing emotion, these kind of progressive ideas about male being even if you do try to raise your sons in that kind of environment, once they get introduced to the real world, you kinda lose control of the narrative. Guy: Yeah, the environment I grew up in was just very patriarchal to begin with. I have to imagine a kid who's growing up in like the most liberal part of California is gonna have a very different experience in high school. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: no matter how much you try to shield people from these ideas, like they just they exist in the world and they're gonna get exposed to them eventually. And I think rather than demonizing it. Cause I think a lot of times that has the effect on young boys of like if you tell them, like, dominating other people was bad, but then they see Andrew Tate he does a really good job of selling the fantasy to twelve year olds it's something as a man I feel like you almost have to internally interact with and sort of contest. Maria: This is actually something that Belle Hook Cooks has a quote on, where she talks about how even if they were raised in a very feminist household by a woman, the second they get a look from like a patriarchal peer, it's over. Cause she talked about how her friend's son liked to wear dresses and things. growing up and and then you pass by a group of adolescent teenagers and they give them that withering like teenage boy look and just it stopped immediately. Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. And you can't control the internet. the internet was around when Hoax wrote this, but it was nothing like the beast that it is today. parents can put as many parental locks on it as they want, but as soon as the kids get to school and interact with their peers, Pandora's box has already been opened. Did you have anything you wanted to say about that guy? Guy: yeah. you see a lot of these online patriarchal figures, like, you know, Andrew Tate, like, it's all centered around like attracting women at its core, at least I feel like. I I think it really preys on a lot of boys' sexual insecurities. I don't want to say you know this is every boy's experience of adolescence, but I think it very quickly turns into a dick measuring contest. And Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: it it was it was really sad looking back just at age 10, how many friends I had and it was all just chill and then as soon as middle school hit, like everyone just hated each other. I remember even thinking then, I'm like, dude, what what happened? the hormones started and I started seeing girls differently. I was like, okay, you know what? I see why we're competing now. Ella Simone: in succession, there's a line where I think in the first episode, Kendall says to his dad, who's the patriarch and CEO of this huge global media conglomerate, I don't want it to feel like a dick measuring competition. And his dad says, sometimes business is a dick measuring competition. Guy: yeah. Ella Simone: And that that's more of a metaphorical thing than a literal thing, obviously. And I think I from what I understand is like Guy: High school locker rooms can get pretty sus sometimes, but yeah. Maria: Okay. Ella Simone: Do they actually be doing that? Maria: so like literally, like you Guy: Yeah, sometimes. I don't know. May maybe mine Ella Simone: Hehehehe Guy: were. I did play on the football team, so we got a little Ella Simone: she has another quote that I think is very prevalent today. In many ways, the fact that today's boy often has a wider range of emotional expression in early childhood, but is forced to suppress emotional awareness later on makes adolescence all the more stressful for boys. I do think young men are getting a lot of mixed messages about how they're supposed to be. we spoke in the last episode about The kind of late 2010s, early 2020s, kill all men, men are trash, narrative in the media and in pop culture. we kind of were acting as if this generation of young men invented the patriarchal wheel. And it wasn't like this already. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: It was already like this. And I've always kind of felt like it was a little harsh to blame 16-year-old boys on a world that they did not create. And their fathers didn't even create and their grandfathers didn't create. This shit is old. So, young men in my generation, I'm 24 now, felt really demonized, felt like Me Too was kind of placing a target on their back. And we talked about kind of the nuances of me t me too in the last episode. it was something that had to happen, but we can acknowledge that it did, as I said in the last episode. drape a canopy of paranoia over male and female relationships. And that's really confusing when you're sixteen and it's really confusing when you're twenty-five. And it's really confusing when there's a bunch of porn in your face. So I think there's a lot of mixed messaging that young men are getting and they genuinely seem to not know how to be without offending or upsetting somebody. Maria: I think also that whole thing about forcing yourself to suppress emotional awareness because the more emotionally aware you are, the more vulnerable you are. And like Ella Simone: Yes. Wait, I like that. Maria: and it's just like it's just a way to shield men from vulnerability. And even these women who are like, okay, I'm gonna raise my son to be different, like they don't want their son to be chewed up and spit out by all this shit. Yeah. Yeah. Ella Simone: Yeah. That's your little boy. I I mean I get Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: it. Let's talk about if women Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: who don't raise their their sons to be feminists. I want to talk about The Sopranos, which, you know, one could argue was a show of really about Tony and his mom. David Chase, the director and showrunner, in his documentary about the show and about himself, said that the show was kind of written about his relationship with his mom. actually guy, why don't you explain? Guy: Yeah. at least in how the show portrays Tony and his relationship to his mom, I think it shows the powerlessness that a lot of little boys feel in the face of their mothers very well. And I mean, I you know, I would say spoilers, but it's been out since the two thousands, so there's this scene in it where, young Tony is complaining to his mom about his dad taking his sister to go to the carnival and not him. And his mom's chopping up some pork and she just slams the knife on the table and just starts screaming at him. And you can just see like the visceral fear that is in Tony's eyes when this happens. And I think a lot of the events of the Sopranos, like in a in a kind of Freudian way, sort of unfold how they do because Tony kind of just never really moves past his childhood and the fear that he felt. And I think that's really the fuel that gives him this almost obsessive need for control and power that really shapes the rest of the series. Ella Simone: Yeah, and the whole series takes place showing Tony in therapy. So he talks about his mom all the time. His therapist tries to get him to see how many ways in which she really terrorized him and kind of continued to throughout the rest of her life, to the point where she alienated her other kids and he was the only one who still cared for her. and he can't really fully accept the amount of control that she had over him and the ways in which she did not really love him. he continues to defend her because that's my mother, that's my mother, even though she was horrible to him. And he can't really see all the ways in which she's emotionally disfigured him. And yet he acts out with other women constantly and can't seem to have a real loving, intimate relationship with the woman. And it's pretty clear to the viewer that those things are connected and it's not very clear to him. And he can even kind of Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: suspect it at times, but it's it's this block he has to really Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: acknowledging that, because I think that would be t to acknowledge that he was not really loved and that would be to acknowledge that he was out of control. why do you think he can't acknowledge it? Guy: I might be painting too broad of a stroke here, but it is a very huge part of Italian culture, in particular of like you honor your parents and especially like men honoring their mothers, like I d Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: it's a whole thing of like Italian men and their mothers and how Ella Simone: yeah. Guy: invested in their dating lives, they are. I'm not sure how much David Chase was leaning on that, but I think at the core of it it's really about Tony admitting that he was defenseless in the face of someone. maybe even to go as far to say like he was defenseless in the face of a woman. Ella Simone: Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is about Italian American culture and Italian culture clashing with modern American culture. And it is a culture of boy moms, let's be so real. That's kind of the stereotype. a very patriarchal culture that fails to acknowledge the ways in which women can wield more power emotionally than men. And I think it almost seemed like it was hard for Tony to compute that reality in his head. And Hooks does write about this. She says To some extent the reformist feminist thinkers who have focused on women as the more ethical, kinder, gentler sex have stood in the way of an in-depth study of maternal sadism, of the ways in which women in patriarchal society act out violently with boys. Women are not inherently more loving than men. Women may give care and still be emotionally abusive. In maternal sadism, the manipulative woman exploits the boy's emotional vulnerability to bind him to her will, to subjugate him. This early experience resides at the heart of many a man's fear of being intimate with a grown woman. And this is a hot take that she gives at the end, and it may explain why so many men in patriarchal cultures seek intimacy with girls or women young enough to be their daughters. Maria: Ugh, I have so much to say about that. I really have always found it interesting where they talk about how women are like ethical and more kind and more gentle. Because in a pay patriarchal system, it is your job to like help a man save face. Like you have to be able to influence him, but you cannot call him out, you cannot be direct, and you have to be very careful or you could invoke his anger, right? So I just think that it's this idea that like control is achieved through manipulation. And because it's subtle, it's harder to call out too. So I think actually you can probably get away with doing more, especially to a child, right? And I think too that there is something that men detest about motherhood too. There's something very unsexy about it. I think they associate it with like control because so many women especially in patriarchal cultures, their identity is tied to the type of mother they are. So if their son fucks up and starts to act a certain way, that's a direct blow on their status. So they're crueler and crueler to their sons because it's like, I'm venting all my frustrations about the world, and you better be good because you're my only source of real status. especially with a son, because in patriarchal cultures, they're valued as higher than daughters. So it's this idea that like, you know, my worth is still derivative of a man, but that man is now my son. And that is inherently extremely insulting. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Maria: Like my inherent worth is based on how this three year old boy is. So of course you're gonna project all your shit into that. Unfortunately, 'cause it's fucked up. Ella Simone: That makes me think of the one child policy in China. there were so many infant girls who were orphaned because their families rejected them because they wanted a boy. They wanted a a male heir, essentially. Or if you can think about Henry the Eighth in the same way they he kept demanding more children of his wife because he wanted a male heir. So in patriarchal culture, The sun is more of a reflection of you and more of a figure in the broader community in the public sphere, whereas your daughter, is more I think of an extension of you. Guy: Yeah, and I think even like despite everything we're saying, I do think there has been a decent amount of progress in recent years. But I think even the practice of like, you take on the name of your husband Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: Like just that subtle idea of like, your bloodline is wiped off the face of the earth because you didn't produce any suns just kinda goes to show how deeply rooted this is in society. Ella Simone: Yeah. And I wanted to bring this back to the sopranos. Livia, isn't that her name? Tony's mom, Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: she's just like a tyrant. I mean, she can be funny Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: at times, but she's extremely cantankerous. She's mean, she's demanding, she's rude, she plays the victim. She's constantly whining about how she wishes she would die and she misses her husband, even though all the flashbacks shown of the Soprano family don't really paint a desirable picture of their marriage. And you also see the ways in which Tony's dad wielded power over her. And she felt, like Maria said, that she couldn't really fight back because you don't want to upset a man too much and put yourself at risk. So she would lash out at Tony. And Bell Hook says clearly patriarchal mothers who have rage at grown men act out with sons. They may either force the son to enter into an inappropriate relationship in which he must provide for her the emotional connection grown men deny. That's what they call in the therapy world emotional incest, or engage in emotional abuse in which the son is constantly belittled in shame. Shamed, sorry. These acts of patriarchal violence serve to reinforce in the mind of boy children that their violence toward females is appropriate. It simply feels like justifiable vengeance. Maria: No, when I think when I think of this, I think of yes, there's so many complicated dynamics between men and women. But honestly, you just traumatize people the way that you are traumatized. Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: if they are forcing this person to like be their entire emotional heart, that is what men do to women all the time. Right? Like this idea it's like, you're belittled or shamed, your voice doesn't matter, like you're a reflection of me, so tighten up, that is just the cycle of t trauma repeating. Because like this is something I talk about so much too, like how the infantilization of women leads to more violence against women. if you look at a woman as young, like childlike, it's this idea that yes, you protect them. But you also in patriarchal cultures, you like beat kids, you punish kids. you know best because you're an adult. Right? I feel like in patriarchal cultures the woman is almost like childlike. There's this thing going around social media where it's like if a woman acts like a child in front of you, that means you're a man, but if she acts like a mom, that means you're a boy. Have you seen that before? Ella Simone: No, but nightmare, nightmare, nightmare what is that? Maria: No, I know. And it's and it's it's basically just this idea if a woman acts like a child around you, you're being a real man because she knows she can turn off her brain next to you. But if she's acting like a mom, that means that you're being a little boy. And Ella Simone: Is this more of this feminine energy men lead and women follow? Soft life, Pilates Maria: I think it's along those lines. Ella Simone: Princess, Brain Rot. Maria: It's it's probably it probably gets folded in there too. But I mean it appeals Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: to men too. Like men love that shit too. I think when you take a woman's power away, it's almost like a childlike thing. And like they repeat that to their children. I think especially when there's like a that gender difference, because I think naturally like part of the bonds between mother and sons and fathers and daughters is because You bond with this person and you don't see quite as much of a reflection because of the gender norm difference. But that mother and son is a perfect place for all that resentment and that trauma that's been building up to come back out. Ella Simone: Yes, and patriarchal women who are operating mentally in a patriarchal framework and probably in the real world in a patriarchal framework, which I don't really feel like I was brought up in, they're not wrong in that raising a a macho man who is respected will make his life easier in the short term at least. there was a really interesting quote Bell Hooks has in here. She said, psychologist David Winter found that women living in countries of extreme male dominance tend to be very controlling of their sons, who are the only males it is safe for them to vent against. Women in these circumstances are often subtly or not so subtly abusive of their sons. and as a social worker, I mean I've done house calls basically for the past three years. So going directly into clients' homes and s seeing what's going on. And I've seen a lot of this stuff. And I will say that I'm from a upper middle class background and I'm from Washington DC, which is a very liberal place, and I don't really feel like I've had guys experience of growing up in like a religious or particularly patriarchal culture. but I would say that the upper class is a more egalitarian society than the lower classes. I've really observed, because I've only as a social worker worked with people who are low income that the patriarchy is very much alive and well in rural parts of Virginia in the hood, where I was working, very much intact. I saw how women I feel like they didn't think it hurt their sons as much because men are different. They they buy more into the idea of men, even little boys, are harder. They don't feel they don't cry as much as women do. So I don't think they really fully realize the extent to which they are doing their damage 'cause they buy into the nature rather than the nurture idea of understanding masculinity. Maria: And I think that makes a lot of sense too because a lot of the time there is such a gender divide between those jobs. Like when you go into more rural areas and things like that. Like I've talked about this too with like blue collar jobs. Like of course women are going into college more because like there aren't a whole g gonna be as much women electricians is because it's an extremely male dominated Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: field. Or like woman AC repair persons, just knowing some people Who have worked in those fields, there can be a lot of harassment and sexism and all this other stuff. Like, this is a physical job. What are you doing here? Right? So it's Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: like a lot easier to be like, we want a man to be a macho man because we need him to be able to excel in the workforce. especially if you have limited resources, Masculinity can work really well in like that kind of environment Ella Simone: I guess that's a good segue for us to get into what Bell Hooks has to say about work, which I think is really important and I don't really see a lot in like feminist critique that discusses men and the very many ways that men also suffer from today's working conditions they're not all operating from a place of power. In fact most of them have no institutional power. Maria: I feel like this is something that s was one of the many reasons why Belle Hooks is so awesome because she talks so much about intersectionality because you can't separate like things like this from socioeconomic status. Because if you're poor, that like puts you way down in the wheel of power. Right? men are also suffering from this terrible economy. Ella Simone: Yeah, they're struggling too. we in the first episode talked a lot about the ways in which the rights and privileges and income of the average worker has suffered at the hands of neoliberalism since the late 70s And that's happened to men too. most men today are struggling to provide for themselves economically. And that I think is a bigger blow to their ego. And their self-esteem because providership is a core tenet of patriarchal masculinity. they have the pressure to not only provide for themselves, but to, you know, pay for the date and make more money and provide for women that we don't have. And I think the more that gets taken away from them, the more that they're going to feel disempowered in society and the more that women might suffer from that. Guy: Yeah, I think it's interesting just like tying capitalism with patriarchy. in a lot of ways I absolutely agree with you Ola. I think patriarchy and capitalism do go hand in hand. But I also think in a lot of ways, patriarchal thinking doesn't lead to the vast majority of people having better economic outcomes. have y'all ever watched Animal Farm? Ella Simone: No. I think I read the Guy: All right. Ella Simone: book years ago. Guy: Yeah, so Maria: Same. Guy: essentially it's I mean, it's laid out with animals, but like the oligarch capitalists or the pigs, But there's this Maria: Hmm. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: horse named Boxer, who's like the biggest, strongest horse on the farm, and everyone respects him. And he's just gets the most work done on the farm by far. And throughout the course of the book, you know, he's working on the farm eventually he's getting a little up there. He can't pull the ropes like he used to. He's getting a little worn out. and he's very just proud throughout the whole book. And then at the end of the book, there's one day where he can't pull the rope anymore. he's like pulling up stones on top of a tower. And then the rope gives, he falls and hurts himself, the tower falls down. And then at the Ella Simone: Awww that makes me so sad. Guy: Well, at the end of no, it gets worse. So at the end of it, they have this truck come for him and it says like horse hospital and then as it's driving away, like the sign that says horse hospital falls off and it says like so and so glue factory. the pigs just like sent him off to the glue factory afterwards. Ella Simone: Of course they did. Damn. Guy: And it's like this I think that's such a great example of how like men who fall into this patriarchal way of thinking but aren't actually at the top just get like used and chewed up and spit out by the system at the Maria: Es Guy: end of it. It's like truly you are only useful as long as you can provide for the people who are at the top. and this kind of goes back to what I was saying about war at the beginning, the allure to it is like, you get to prove that you're a man, you're fighting for this cause that you're supposed to believe in, and it's all just this lie in order to use you for all of that energy and then dump you when you're not useful anymore. Ella Simone: Yeah, my ex-boyfriend who I lived with for over two years was a carpenter and it's rough. It degrades Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: your body. And he was young and it it it literally corrodes your fucking joints. Like it's it's hard and I I can see how the job market today that swapped bail dominated careers and bail dominated workforce like manufacturing for what we have today, email job content creator economy, whatever you want Guy: I mean yeah. Ella Simone: to call it. I can see how we could look like the cruel influence of feminism to a young man who doesn't know about greater economic forces. I can see why a 15 year old boy who doubts his ability to compete with women would think that it's us taking jobs for them. And they kind of put classic kind of like male dominated jobs on a pedestal. Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: But Maria: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: really, even the trades aren't great. I mean, drug and alcohol abuse is rampant. it's tedious, it's boring, it's oftentimes dehumanizing, your your health and well being is at risk, and you just get used. And it's Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: it's deeper than just getting used on a Zoom call. It's your actual body is getting used and damaged by all this stuff. I think what we discussed last episode about like girl boss feminism, like liberal white feminism that was predominant in the mid to late 2010s, really ignored this entire group of men. And I would say to bring it to a place of politics, I think that's kind of why Trump one in twenty sixteen Democrats completely ignored the working class, did nothing but alienate them and Hillary Clinton referred to them as a basket of deplorables. I remember when she said that and I was in high school and I was like, she just lost the election. Like I just feel like they completely ignored that group of people and that's a huge percentage of the population and we don't have to like everything that the white male working class does or says, not that it's a monolith, but they matter too. And I think what Bell Hoax is trying to say is that feminism has failed to speak to them or include them. Maria: Yeah. Guy: What a perfect example of someone like Donald Trump is the capitalist pig in Animal Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: Farm who's exploiting their grievances and then using their labor to advance Ella Simone: So true. Guy: his own position. And like the same thing's gonna happen. They're gonna get dumped when they're not useful anymore. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Maria: But at least they're like being valued and like this old timey idea of what Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: they're there it's like purpose is what's being sold. And this was actually Guy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maria: something that Ella and I are really excited and passionate about, like the idea of alienation and Marxism. in Marxist theory, alienation is all about how workers are estrained from their essential human nature under capitalism. Ella Simone: Yeah, when Marx wrote that at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, the world that he had grown up in, say you were an apprentice to a blacksmith, you knew the guy who was training you. You had a personal relationship with him. your family, knew his family, and you guys exchanged goods or whatever. and you were being taught a craft. You were being taught more than doing just one thing. There's another thing Marks would talk about how workers used to participate in the entire process of producing something and seeing it from start to finish. there's something in the human brain that craves that satisfaction. And Marx talked about how the factory and mass production that the Industrial Revolution brought introduced this one note, extremely mechanical, extremely repetitive type of work where you're just flipping a switch on a machine over and over and over all day. You're not gonna see the machine, you didn't make the parts. You're not gonna be able to afford the machine. It has nothing to do with you. So you feel alienated from what you're doing because you know that you're just a barcode. You're just on an assembly line. Instead of having a personal connection to what you're doing and feeling like you're actually learning a craft, you're just serving the cause of mass production, I suppose. So he was writing this in the context of the industrial revolution, but I think it's still pretty relevant today. Maria: and even just speaking like from the basic psychology lens, like nothing makes human beings degrade more than repetition and monotony because we're not challenged anymore. And it's soul crushing. Guy: I think there's a world where you can like be perfectly in touch with yourself and on the path of self actualization and work in a corporate environment and have a work life balance and not care that much about it. But it just makes me think of like just how much people have to go through to get through all of this to suppress everything that Marx is talking about here Ella Simone: back to the sopranos, I mean that whole show is about what happens once you get to the top. Now what? And does this dream of domination really deliver the goods? And Guy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ella Simone: Spoiler alert, it does not. And succession is about that too. And we have so many examples of media in America. I think because we're so obsessed with climbing ladders and self actualizing and individualism that depicts, you know, the folly of pursuing domination at all costs. I don't know, kind of feels like evil just reinvents itself in that way. Like the lock in like grind like gym bro slash like entrepreneur content that is so prevalent on social media and like really especially for young men, I mean it just keeps getting produced and I don't really see that stopping anytime soon. Guy: Well, I think it's very easy to mark it and I think it preys on our base instincts of fear. I do think fear is at the core of all of this. Whether it's fear of being less than other people, I think for a lot of men, and I think this gets missed sometimes, there's a fear that you won't be able to connect with people if you aren't dominant. And I think it's the it's this Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: really backwards way of thinking, 'cause like y it's impossible to connect with someone you're trying to dominate and compete Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: with. Not truly. men just kinda get stuck in this idea of like, I have this life where like everyone loves me and just thinks I'm the shit. If only I worked a little harder. If only I like put in a little more time in the gym. If only I made a little more money. And it's like them doing that is actually what's driving people away. Ella Simone: Yeah, you're spending all this time in the gym not with friends. I watched Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: this video, I think it was that guy. I He's like a podcast bro, like Alex Hormozy. He was saying I don't know, I think he's British. Guy: god that is he the band aid guy? He like always has a band-aid on his nose? Ella Simone: He looks like Russell Brand if you like squashed him and like widened him. But he was like, Guy: All right. Ella Simone: he was like, what's my advice to young men? You gotta stop going out with your bros and start getting in the gym. Stop drinking on a Thursday. Like that's for chuds who won't get ahead. Like, you need to go to the gym. And I'm like, no, you need to be drinking with your bros. Like, that's actually valuable. Guy: God bro, looks like homo hability. Ella Simone: This gym bullshit working on your triceps Maria: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: is like isolating. People who are in the gym every single day, I'm like, do you have friends? Maria: It makes me think of like all those memes that I see of like men's like Did you know that if you work out, like you won't get more girls? All you're gonna get is like a bunch of other guys telling you dude, bro, how much do you fucking like chest press, lift, hydraulic, whatever? I don't fucking know what men do. Like and that's the point. Yeah, it's Yeah, it's Ella Simone: Nice form, bro. Nice form. Guy: Yeah. Maria: like nice ass, bro. It's just like it's that it's that idea too that men are trying to do things for women and they just end up doing it for other men. And it's like it's like they're not being they're not selling the bill of sale. Does that make sense? Guy: that does absolutely make sense and like a I know I said this a bit in the last episode. I almost think it's intentional of like if you keep dudes on this treadmill of thinking that if they outcompete other men, that's what's gonna get them women. Like they keep selling the product in the parts of society that are a little less well off, I think that is true. When resources are scarce, there's some merit to that, but it's not like women are going to these men because they like them. It's just resources are scarce and they need to get the resources. And I think a lot of men are kind of stuck in that mindset in segments of society where that's just not the case and they're kind of like deluding themselves with this fantasy that doesn't reflect the reality around them. Ella Simone: Do you mean like flexing? getting like a lot of outward signs of prosperity. Guy: Yeah. if you grew up in an environment where resources are scarce and your whole life revolved around getting resources, just as simple as like money, like you're going to be attracted to people who have that resource. Maria: Mm, I see. Guy: Not necessarily the person Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: who has the resource. Because you're kind of stuck in survival mode. And again, I'm generalizing here plenty of people aren't like this I feel like I could do a whole episode on like suburban white kids fascination with trap music. Ella Simone: Yes, I'm obsessed with that concept. Guy: Especially like boys. But I think there's this fantasy of like, if I grew up in this like impoverished state, like I could rise above that and I could be the one, like it's almost this like ultimate measure of competence. And I think there's something very emasculating under a patriarchal framework to a boy and really speaking for myself here who had like their parents provided them anything they could ever want. They didn't have to go out and like make fast money on the street so that they could get food and feed their family. But they want to feel like they could do that if they needed to. So they kind of fantasize this lifestyle. Ella Simone: I'm so glad you brought that up because I too am fascinated with white suburban kids' obsession with the hood and Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: street culture and rap. on the one hand, it's kind of like creating this video game simulation idea of your reality in which it is down to resource accumulation. Cause like you said, they're too comfortable. people need adversity and the human mind needs challenges. to build up any kind of real self-esteem, I think a person has to see themselves rise above adversity. I think that's where real self-esteem comes from. And I think Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: kids who grew up with everything kind of struggle to see, especially men, what they bring to the table. And so to think about living in the hood where it is much higher stakes. I think Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: it kind of creates a simulated reality in the way that war video games create a simulated Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: reality of like we're down to survival. And there's something kind of thrilling about that. Guy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: And the sanitized suburban safe existence that's is the reality for so many people and so many young boys is really not scratching that itch to to achieve and to prove oneself. what you were saying earlier about like the kind of ethic of getting money and hustling and stuff, that is like a direct reflection of one's worth. you wanted the money, I got the money. What does like every rapper do when they're coming up when they're 18 years old? Hold wads of cash to their ear and take pictures Guy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ella Simone: with it. It's pretty direct. Whereas it rising in the corporate world and going to the right school and networking, knowing the right person, having the right internship, that's a lot more diffuse, a lot less direct, and it's kind of feels more feminine because it's based on like reputation Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: and like having the right interview style and that's not I got the resources, here are the resources. Guy: Yeah. Maria: And I think it speaks too to what you're talking about about alienation. Like that hustling, that fast money, you know exactly what you're doing to make it happen. It's quick, it's creative, and I don't want to say community, but there is like a much bigger like connection to your work. And also like with a lot of these suburban kids, I think they face the reality too. Like, I don't think that there is any possible way to give my kids a better life than I was given. And I think that Ella Simone: Hmm. Maria: that's like such an ultimate goal for some people. And I had a situation where I had the opportunity to give my kids a better situation than the one I was raised in. And I and when I had to let that situation go. I had to sit there and be like, I am giving up the only chance I'll ever have to give my kids like a more financially solvent life than I was given. And that kinda like hit my ego a little bit. And I don't feel as conditioned to provide the same way I think that men are. Ella Simone: Yeah, what you said about the community aspects. I mean, another part about rap is that traditionally it's very regional. It's based Maria: Mm. Ella Simone: on I'm in this city, I'm in this neighborhood I might even go down to one's block. I'm a huge rap fan and I feel jealous at times for the sense of allegiance that rappers will have to where they're from, where like where I'm from, which is such an international like metropolitan city I don't really feel this sense of I wanna prove it to people. I wanna bring it home to my community. My community doesn't need me to bring it home. My community's doing better than me. There isn't this sense of like upward mobility. in class where the hood is like offering you the allure of upward mobility. If you can just hustle and you can like figure the right stuff out. But the reality is most men in those communities are not getting out. And most women in those communities are not getting out. And in the first episode we talked more about Bell Hooks's criticisms of the girl boss liberal white feminism that we're kind of Putting under the same umbrella category. And I wanted to mention that when I first started really taking issue with girl boss feminism as a teenager in like the late 2010s, when I think it was most dominant, my central critique, which I maintain today, is that it completely excluded middle and working class women. Maria: yeah. Ella Simone: And didn't even seem to pay lip service to them. It was kind of like they weren't even there. And Belle Hooks said, feminist movement has had very little impact on the masses of working class women who were in the workforce prior to the movement and who still remain there, just as dissatisfied and discontent with their lot as the men in their lives. Poor and working class women have always known that the everyday work experience places men in an environment where they feel powerless and when they are unable to articulate that on patriarchal terms. And she goes on to say that a lot of like prominent feminist critics kind of speak about men from this place of absolute power because the men in their lives with class privilege probably were powerful, but working class women really see the ways in which men suffer at the hands of their workplaces in a way that I don't think women with class privilege do. Maria: I've always thought about that where people talk about like women want jobs. Like women have been having jobs. And I have a similar critique of like girl boss feminism too, What is the equivalent for the working class and min middle class woman for girl boss feminism? Ella Simone: explain to me how it's helped their lives at all. I don't think it really has. Maria: Well no, and I think like Bell Hooks makes the excellent point too of if you can't afford a stay at home mom, these principles don't really exist. women in the working class are working similar jobs to what men work because You don't have the luxury of one household income. Ella Simone: Yeah. I work in a restaurant and there's a few couples who are married who work there. I mean, they're in the shit together. I read a book a couple years ago called Hood Feminism the women that the movement forgot that was kind of about this. And the author was saying that men who have like demeaning, and I'm not trying to say that all working class jobs are demeaning, but I'm talking about manual like manual labor that's hard on your body, that's generally not very well paying. Men who have those kinds of jobs often can be the most patriarchal, I hate to say it, because the one arena in which they have dominion is the relation between man and woman. Basically they get bitched out all day and they feel powerless and they come home and the one arena in which they can exert power is in the the interpersonal. Maria: I makes me think of this second quote women with class privilege have been the only group who have perpetuated the notion that men are all powerful because the men in their families were powerful. That's Ella Simone: Exactly. Maria: why girl boss feminism is a thing, honestly. Because like there was something to be envied for these like upper class like white men who go to their fucking cushy bank jobs And I don't really I don't want to go work a 12 hour shift to the fucking salad factory. Like I I'm sorry. Guy: Why not, Ella Simone: The salad Guy: Maria? Why are you hating on the salad Ella Simone: factory. Guy: fact, hmm? No, I'm also hating on the I I had a brief experience where I worked at a salad factory for like two months. Ella Simone: A sal what is a salad factory? Guy: So you know those little prepackaged salads at grocery Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: stores? I worked at a factory that made those. And I had to quit Ella Simone: what was that like? Guy: because I got bronchitis 'cause of all the chemicals they were putting in the lettuce, so. Hopefully big salad doesn't come after this podcast. But Ella Simone: my god. You got bronchitis from the Guy: so yeah, don't Ella Simone: chemicals that they were spraying on the lettuce. Guy: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, speaking of demeaning Ella Simone: Jesus, it's time to come. Guy: work, there was a week where I worked twenty one days straight because they were just like, you guys just have to work on the weekends. We need to fill orders. Yeah. Ella Simone: Yeah, there's two quotes in this section that I wanna read Contemporary patriarchy has offered disappointed male workers a trade-off. The perks of manhood that a depressed economy takes away can be redeemed in the realm of the sexual through domination of women. When that world of sexuality is not fulfilling, males rage. And then she goes on to say: rather than throw out the whole outmoded patriarchal script so that the nature of work and our culture can be changed, which how do we do that? Men are offered addictions that make un Satisfying work more bearable. Patriarchal obsession with sex and the pornography it produces are promoted to soothe men subliminally while they perform jobs that are tedious, boring, and oftentimes dehumanizing. Jobs where their health and well-being are at risk. And I started getting a little schizo-conspiracy when I read this, and I was like, is that why there's just images of sexy women everywhere all the time. I know sex sells as a marketing principle, but what do you guys think about that? Guy: So your argument is that there's pictures of sexy women around all the time so that men don't get too pissed off at the their state in the world and then rise up Ella Simone: I'm not really making an argument. I'm just posing the question to the chat. do Guy: Yeah, that's Ella Simone: we just have this constant like dopamine stimulation so that people can just shut the fuck up and keep working because at least I can drink at when I get off work. At least I can look at this porn Guy: yeah. Ella Simone: when I get off work. Guy: No, I I a hundred percent think that's the case. Ella Simone: Yeah, and the trades are like known for drug and alcohol abuse, if you wanna throw that in there too. Guy: yeah. Maria: I think the upper class has always tried to placate the lower class I mean that actually happened like with the British and the Chinese, the opium wars, I believe. What one of the main things Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: that they did is China was isolationist like, we're not gonna trade with you and then Britain basically got opium over there and then China had to trade with them. Ella Simone: Yeah. So is Sabrina Carpenter a plant from big salad to placate the masses? Maria: I feel like she's so popular Guy: Coming after me. Maria: the similar reason that Sydney Sweeney is so popular because she's really selling the idea of male domination. But she's doing such a cutesy thing, she doesn't get the same ire as Sydney Sweeney, because Sydney Sweeney is very much like I'm just gonna piss off all the liberals and let here are my titties, everybody. she's not that outward, but she's still selling that idea of like male domination. Ella Simone: She is, but with Sabrina, there's a wink And she always is the self-aware protagonist in her songs. And she's always kind of like digging at men. she has a song Man Child, like she's calling men stupid. Whereas Sydney Sweeney. is kind of like a blank canvas allowing you to project onto her and doesn't really seem to have any kind of feminist consciousness. So it isn't really received the same way. But I also have seen the two of them compared. Maria: but that's interestingly a little bit patriarchal, right? you're adding a knowing wink to it, but it's like, yeah, like you're just manipulating men using patriarchal, thinking. Ella Simone: she's not reinventing the wheel. She's still buying into the whole thing, but also she's a product of the pop star machine, and you have to wonder why every pop star derobes and really isn't gonna become big until she's starts showing her body. Guy: it is interesting though. the dudes that I hang out with, Sydney Sweeney is talked about a lot more than Sabrina Carpenter. There's something about the wake and the nod that I feel like men on some level. like see and have that little hint of like, Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: she's making fun of me. Ella Simone: Yeah. Sabrina's kind of doing a cheeky, I think she almost has a bit of a dominant energy to her, even though it's very coquettish. It still feels like she's in control. With Sydney, A she's acting, so it's a different medium. But Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: she doesn't really have a strong point of view, it seems, And I for one think that Sydney Sweeney gets too much hate from women. her wink is like, I'm sexualizing myself. And that's not funny. It's not like cute and like charming in the way that Sabrina is. she's just doing the like any attention is good attention thing. that cosmopolitan cover where she's like holding her tits up to the screen, that was rage bait. she I think is really aware of how much she pisses people off and is just using the publicity as fuel for her career. Whereas Sabrina she has more of a cheeky pin up like Hello boys kind of thing with the camera. And that's very much what she's referencing, Guy: I also think there's a lot of dudes who like genuinely don't get past their looks. I'm gonna be completely honest with you. Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: Like like I I think they are absolutely distracted by their feminine wiles and do not get past that. Ella Simone: For sure. Maria: Where even were we? Ella Simone: I don't know. Guy: I think we're talking Ella Simone: we were talking about like men, their role as provider being so important. I think men feel objectified by their labor or their status Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: that comes with it. Pretty similarly in the way that women feel objectified by our bodies and the corresponding status that comes with that. but the difference is I think our objectification persist to serve their feelings of objectification. well, maybe it is kind of the same actually. Guy: Well, I don't know. why do y'all think a lot of men want to make a bunch of money and do all this stuff? Maria: I mean I've always just thought that money and stuff are cool personally. I I I didn't Ella Simone: Ha ha ha. Guy: I mean I that is fair, but I feel like there is on some level where it's like men feel like they need to provide for women. I don't know if y'all feel this way, this is just insight that I've gained from interacting with women over the years. I think a lot of women have this resentment towards men where it's like, I'm doing all of this stuff to look pretty for you. And I think men feel Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: that same resentment of like, I'm putting in all of these extra hours of grueling over time for you. And, you know, what thanks do I get? Ella Simone: In my experience, are they? Sorry, but I ain't seen that. Guy: I mean I've had a lot of clients over the years be like, I need to work this much and like my wife chooses not to work ends. Ella Simone: Mm. Guy: It's like that unequal division of labor my first question whenever that comes up is always like, okay, well who takes care of the home, who cooks, who takes care of the kids? 'Cause like that's a whole thing. But Yeah. No, absolutely. So it's like, Ella Simone: That is labor. It's just unpaid, in my opinion. Maria: Mm-hmm. Guy: is it really an unequal division of labor? Maria: I haven't seen a lot of traditional dynamics where a woman's work is truly valued as important as the men's work. They think it's feminine and they think it's less than them. And that's kind of the part of the problem where that resentment starts. tell me for wrong guy. But the average man does not like Guy: No. Maria: look at that as more important. Guy: I completely agree with you. I think maybe my initial statement was a bit off. So I'm thinking of it in terms of the typical like finance bro, the male patriarchal ideal is like being Jordan Belfort. Whereas I Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Guy: feel the female Maria: So true. Guy: patriarchal ideal is being like Sydney Sweeney, if you buy into this system. Ella Simone: Yeah, and both parties are objectified Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: by each other and by market incentives and then also objectify themselves in order to Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: succeed in the sexual realm. And what I mean by that is men I think feel objectified by the premium placed on status, but they really buy into that by, reinventing themselves as hustlers. And women feel objectified by, how frequently they are sexualized and they buy into that by female looks maxing and doing what I do and posting pictures on social media to, you know, basically display themselves as beautiful because it is the way to succeed in Our society. men are valued for their labor and their status and women are valued for their appearance. And if you want to get ahead, you basically have to buy into that. It's pretty rare that someone breaks the mold. there's some there's some proverb from ancient China that says like, work, make money, make friends, produce, or you will die of despair. So even back then, in ancient China, that was how it was. And I think that might just be what it is to live in human civilization Guy: Well, I think it's I think it's interesting 'cause it's almost like men are taking on that role. Like they're taking on the Sydney Sweeney role in society. Ella Simone: they wanna be the deer with its broken leg they want to get the social capital of like being a hawk girl. We were talking about this last episode. Guy: I think there's like a difference between dudes who like hit the gym a lot versus someone like clavicular. Like I think there's the different motive behind it. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Hundred percent. Maria: Yeah, I mean we were talking about men are like just wanna be hot girls, but like that they're doing that with looks maxing and what the fuck is that about? So I don't Ella Simone: Because we live in an image-based society with social media now, and your image is more important. And my mom has talked about this as a realtor. She's been doing real estate for years, and now there's this pressure to make content as a real estate agent. They want you to get your ass on TikTok and have like a public profile and like share about your personal life. that's what I mean when I say like influencer economy. I don't mean that everyone is an influencer, but I mean People's workplaces are adopting the features of being an influencer and that everything is about like having this parasocial relationship and everything is about the face and the personality and the brand. think about like if you watch the Golden Girls, those women were in in their fifties and they looked like old as fuck. And that was fine. Like that wasn't That wasn't maligned in the way that aging Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: is now. Like now we have we've always had a youth culture and that's like a huge feature of Western civilization, but not to the point where 26-year-olds were getting Botox. Everything is so extreme, like the premium on being attractive now that I think men are realistically responding to the demands placed on them by society. It's just weird when they take pictures of themselves. And it's just weird when they're on the internet and on social media. Every girl I know was like, men should have like four pictures of themselves on social media. And then it gets weird. And I think they just kind of don't know how to act. They're not used to Maria: And like Ella Simone: like being asked to turn the camera on themselves. And now they're being faced with the male gaze, and they're like, fuck. Maria: I think of looks maxing as like, it's much easier for me to be hot than rich. Ella Simone: Clavicular literally says that. He says the economic and educational barriers are so high now that you might as well get as hot as you can because that's more in your control. Maria: Jesus fucking Christ. No he's not. He's fucked up. Ella Simone: He's not wrong. I mean, we're we're gonna do an episode where we talk more about this, so I don't want to go too in depth, This is something I really am ready to speak about. But in a similar vein, this is not something that Belle Hoax talked about, but she talks throughout the book about the ways in which patriarchy has harmed men. And I think the entitlement that patriarchy has afforded men has given this illusion that. They can be kind of ineffective and mediocre because they just got it like that. a lot of men's thinking is rooted in a patriarchy that no longer exists. We have a patriarchy today, but it's a different type of patriarchy than their Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: fathers grew up with. And this patriarchy that Andrew Tate is always harping on of the fifties that lasted for about ten years before literally everything changed. And Guy: Yeah. Maria: right. Ella Simone: it will never go back to that, by the way, because we'll never have that kind of economic prosperity again. it's kind of giving them an excuse to not try very hard and just to like absorb stimuli guy. It looks like you wanted to talk. Guy: well, finish your point. It's all good. I think you're cooking with it. Ella Simone: I mean, women have this we have almost kind of a chip on our shoulder because of the way that we're underestimated and I think it's kind of made us want to achieve and prove ourselves, and I certainly feel that way. And I think men, because they've already kind of lived under the idea that they've got it, don't really have this sense of striving outside of this fake hustle culture. I don't really know many guys who are genuinely into that. I think it's kind of something a lot of men have a phase with and then grow out of because Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: it's like for cornballs. I mean, patriarchy is kind of given men the excuse to like mediocre and chopped. I mean the fact that Jordan Peterson telling y'all to make your bed was revolutionary says a lot. And like also the homophobia of it. Like it's not gay to get a good haircut and wash. Guy: Nah, that's fair. I mean, I cannot get down with this looks maxing thing. you can go just to thrift stores and get a decent wardrobe. Like I you don't have to go crazy with it. Maria: Yeah, I just Guy: I feel like that's one of the things traditional masculinity got right. like I don't like I think I should I do not want to focus my like that much of my time and energy on my appearance. Like I wanna just like get shit done, be a better therapist, like just do what I need to do. Ella Simone: So within Lux Maxing, there's hard maxing, which is the crazy invasive surgeries and then there's soft maxing, which is actually 80% of what looks maxing is. Most of it is not this extreme install stuff. Soft maxing is Guy: Yeah. So so what's off? Ella Simone: soft maxing is just getting a haircut that fits your face shape, grooming Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: well, like dressing in a way that's flattering, having some awareness of aesthetics. What do you think about that? Guy: Yeah. Yeah, Maria: Yeah. Guy: to me that feels like becoming an adult. don't know. Ella Simone: yeah. I'm I'm pro softmaxing. Cause I'd be s I've be seen these women, they're in their fifties, they're going to the gym every day, they're going to Pilates, they may or may not be getting Botoxed. They're looking good. Like people are aging in a way that we really have never seen before and people are living so much longer. And then they pull up with their chopped ass husband. Who looks like a slob. And it's just spiritually incorrect. Are you really gonna wear a gray shirt with mayonnaise on it for the fifth day in a row? Like, it's disgusting. And there's a certain sex appeal in Guy: With mayonnaise is crazy. Ella Simone: like the rugged, like dirty blue-collar man, obviously. Maria: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: But At a certain point it just gets gross and a lot of y'all have marketing degrees and you be LARPing. Guy: What are your thoughts, Marion? Maria: I'm not as visually driven as a person as Ella. Ella loves visual beauty. But I do see it all the time. Like, men's expectations for things like self care is abysmal. And I actually think that ties into the patriarchy to take care of yourself is feminine. Self care is such a feminine state. Yeah. Ella Simone: Mm-hmm. Or homophobia, like, well that's also patriarchal. Like it's gay to like pick out a good haircut. Maria: I have this thing, Please God, if you wanna pluck, sure. But I will not date a man who gets his eyebrows waxed because I will not date a man who does more like feminine self care than I do, personally. Guy: no, I'm not getting hair plugs either. Once this goes, I'm just shaving it. It'll Maria: I said plucked. Guy: be bald and proud. Ella Simone: Bald men can have a certain sex appeal. Maria: in Bridgerton like season four, Lady Danbury is brother, who's like this really sexy bald guy, I'm like that's the most attractive man in that show. Ella Simone: yeah Guy: being bald, like you have to be confident if you're bald. If you're bald Ella Simone: You gotta Guy: and you got insecurity it's it's not happening. Yeah. Ella Simone: You gotta walk in the light of your baldness and you gotta and you gotta put that sunscreen on and you gotta like seize the day Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: and just own it. Be be Anthony Fantano, okay? Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: all right. Let's let's close out with talking about how can men and women do better? Can men muster up the will to change their patriarchal ways and how can both sides improve? Guy: I feel for men in this way because at first there's not much external reward for changing. Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: And I think that's kind of the plight that a lot of men face where it's like if you buck the system, if you go against this way of thinking, like your social circles probably are gonna clown you for it. And you might get rejected to a certain Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: degree. And you might not you might like lose your edge in the sense that you don't have this almost like trauma induced like need to achieve material success in life. for me At least kind of moving away from some of this thinking. It's been a very internal and spiritual experience where it's like focusing more on what I actually value. Which honestly, in some way, shapes, and forms overlaps with traditional masculinity, but in a lot of ways doesn't. And I think it's really about detaching yourself from what society expects of you and truly like taking the reins of your own life. And that can be really intimidating and scary, but I think it can also be in one of the most rewarding experiences in your entire life. And what I would say if there's like any man who's watching This, who's like on the fence about all of this stuff. Like, I think the first step you can take is to just get in touch with what you actually feel about the world around you. And like, if something makes you sad, be sad. Cry. Shed a tear. Like, I think reconnecting. Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: Like, we talked about it earlier with just that like boyish sense of joy you have. Just like seeing a puppy's cute. I spent all day watching. videos of people rescuing baby seals with like fishing line caught around their neck. It was Ella Simone: Mm, I love those. Guy: wonderful. And I feel like you would I think getting in touch with your emotions is in a way like resisting the system that's being placed upon you. And I think a lot of these changes that we're talking about start there. Ella Simone: I agree. What do you think, Maria? Maria: No, I love that. I feel like that's what there's so much that can be healed for men and their trauma with the patriarchy by getting in touch with their inner child. It's like the last place they really experience joy. I really would like to say Men don't just Guy: Mm. Maria: need to get in touch with their emotions to please women. You will have a better life. like letting go of the patriarchy will genuinely help you. and I think that that is something that gets lost in so many people. It's not a privilege to dominate and violate women. It actually just Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: hurts you. Ella Simone: I don't remember if we actually went over this actual quote, but Bell Hooks talks about how you can never really be intimate with anyone who you're trying to dominate, which I think Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: speaks to this quote unquote male loneliness epidemic that we have. I mean, a lot of these men have friends, but they still don't feel like they have anyone they can be honest with. Guy: Right. Ella Simone: And she also talks in the book about how some men will go to their female partners when they are really upset and are kind of denied a hearing because women don't really know how to metabolize their emotions or sometimes men can be very clumsy in the way that they go about it and it comes out really wrong. It can come out as too strong, too much at one time. so I think if you if you know your bro is hurting, like reach out to him. Guy: Mm-hmm. Maria: And that also means if you're a man and you're a father, make sure that you're raising your boys to have those values as well because that's another way that men can be better. in order to have better boys you have to have better fathers. Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: Yeah. I mean, I think that's one sign of progress that is really noteworthy. Like men are more involved in parenting than ever in American history. There's a lot of data behind that. So I think that is a really good improvement we're Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: seeing. And as far as what I think of of how men and women can do better, think about the ways in which all these patriarchal ideas are just being put forth by the market. The market is telling you That you need to change your body as a woman and that you need to fit into this like size zero, age 22 model forever because it because it wants you to buy more stupid shit. Same thing with men. You're con you guys are getting like inundated with porn, video games, sports betting, Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: all this, like all these vices that are just kind of wasting your time and your Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: life force. And they are changing the way that you're looking at the world and changing the way that you're looking at women. And think about. Think about how these ideas of patriarchy are being perpetuated just to sell you stuff. Ultimately, Guy: Mm-hmm. Ella Simone: it's kind of empty. It doesn't really mean anything. Just in the way that, like, when the military says, you know, you're doing all this honorable stuff for your country by blowing up children in Iran, it doesn't mean anything. It's just to make money off of you. Think very critically about the messaging that you're receiving every day and the products that you're engaging with and the subtext of the media that you consume. Think about how it affects you and how it affects your worldview. And do not, under any circumstances, buy a course from a red pill manosphere influencer. Guy: Okay. Ella Simone: It will ruin your life. Don't buy a course, period. Guy: That's hilarious. No, and I just have one final thought. No, genuinely that that's hilarious. But I don't know, I this is kind of a more personal thing from when I was, you know, h kind of in adolescence starting to find out who I was. I think it's really important that you don't give in to the despair of thinking that the world can't change and everything's hopeless, so you might as well just devolve into hedonism. Like Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: what I led this pod this episode of the podcast talking about was how men would sacrifice just about anything for a cause that they believed in. And I think like What I've personally found and you know, I'm not saying you have to adopt anyone else's cause, but is this idea of like genuinely making the world a place that people don't have to go through the shit that you had to go through. And I think that I Ella Simone: Yeah. Guy: think the painful part of that is connecting with what you went through. But I think there's so much beauty and fulfillment to be found in working to try and make the world a better place where people don't have to go through that. So Maria: Yeah, Ella Simone: Yeah. Maria: that's beautiful. Ella Simone: That's beautiful guy. That's a great note to Guy: Well thank you Ella Simone: end on. Be be the change you want to see in the world. The will to change Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: is within you. Maria: Yeah, absolutely. I love that too. Ella Simone: And do not under any circumstances engage with manosphere content. It will ruin your life. There's a there's an exciting trend I'm seeing of guys going on TikTok and talking about how the red pill ruined their life. Learn from your brothers, stop Guy: Yeah. Ella Simone: with this goofy shit, and be a good person. Guy: Yeah. But also if you got sucked down the pipeline, like no shame. It's happened to a ton of people. It's not the end of the world. You can get out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Ella Simone: It's not over for you, bro. It's okay. Again, it's a market incentive. They're trying to sell you courses. Just because you're twenty six does not mean it's over for you. You are not cooked. Your whole life your whole life is stretching out in front of you. Guy: Mm. Ella Simone: You just have to have the will to change. Thank you guys for listening. Class dismissed, and we'll see you next time. Bye. Guy: See ya.