Latest / Collectors MD Features / #24: The Sunday Project: The Blurred Lines Between Collecting & Gambling | Stop Betting Sports

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#24: The Sunday Project: The Blurred Lines Between Collecting & Gambling | Stop Betting Sports · Collectors MD Features

0:00
Okay, good morning everyone and welcome to today's
0:02
The Sunday Project hosted by us at Stop Betting
0:06
Sports. I'm Deborah Buhai, I'm a gambling addiction
0:09
therapist. I work primarily one -on -one with
0:12
people who have severe gambling disorder and
0:15
they're affected individuals. I'm delighted to
0:17
be here every Sunday working with this amazing
0:19
team. And every week, the Sunday Project bring
0:23
together different voices from across gambling
0:25
treatment, recovery, prevention, education, and
0:28
lived experience to have honest conversations
0:30
about gambling -related harm and what we're seeing
0:33
and what we're learning. learning, importantly,
0:35
what we can do about it. So we have a really
0:37
excellent group joining us today. Mr. Dan Field,
0:40
Professor Dan Field, an adjunct professor at
0:42
USC and clinical director of Westside Gambling
0:44
Treatment. He specializes in working with people
0:46
with gambling disorder and their families and
0:50
affected individuals. And Mr. Marc Lefkowitz,
0:53
who is also prefers to be referred to as the
0:57
old sage, and he has spent decades working with
1:00
individuals who have gambling addiction in working
1:04
programs creating programs across the california
1:07
and he brings his own lived experience also in
1:10
gambling recovery and has helped create and develop
1:13
programs and gives his advice here every Sunday
1:17
and is our very own amazing news presenter. Matt
1:22
Zarb Cousins joined us again this morning who
1:25
created the co -founder of Gamban. It is the
1:28
app that you can download on your phone that
1:30
will design to help people block gambling apps,
1:34
block access to gambling websites. And Matt also
1:38
brings both lived experience and years of work.
1:41
We're working in gambling harm and prevention
1:43
policy and advocacy in the UK, but is known internationally.
1:48
And joining us today, a new guest, Mr. Alyx Effron.
1:52
He is the founder of Collectors MD, a peer support
1:56
education and prevention platform addressing
1:59
compulsive collecting, overspending and gambling
2:03
adjacent behaviors. He's a lifelong... collector
2:06
in recovery himself from gambling addiction.
2:09
And his work examines the increasingly blurred
2:13
lines between collecting, spending, speculation
2:17
and gambling -like experiences. Welcome, Alyx.
2:20
And welcome back today, Jake Schuster. He brings
2:24
a particular focus working with adolescents and
2:28
young people in the field. And we've seen that
2:31
this is an epidemic. with lots and lots of adolescents
2:35
showing up with gambling addiction now. Alyx
2:38
is working directly with young people going into
2:41
schools and has joined the team here at the Sunday
2:44
Project to bring his own advice and expertise.
2:47
Thank you and welcome back, Jake. So if you're
2:50
new here, welcome to the Sunday Project. We're
2:53
so glad to have you. And if you're returning,
2:55
welcome back. We have a really good couple of
2:58
news stories to be presented here. This morning
3:01
by our very own Marc. Off you go. Take it away,
3:04
Marc. Thanks, Deb. Hi, I'm Marc Lefkowitz with
3:07
Stop Betting Sports. Every once in a while, a
3:10
professional athlete says something that cuts
3:12
through the noise surrounding sports betting.
3:15
This time, it was Victor Wemby Yama. I'm just
3:19
going to call him Wemby for the rest of the article.
3:22
The San Antonio Spurs superstar was asked whether
3:26
he would ever endorse a sports betting company.
3:29
His answer? Absolutely not. He went even further,
3:33
saying he thinks it's sad to see players promoting
3:36
gambling companies. And then he ended with two
3:38
separate words, without me. And now here's the
3:41
question I want to ask. What exactly is Wemby
3:45
protecting? Is it the integrity of basketball,
3:48
or is there something bigger here? Because professional
3:51
athletes have enormous influence, especially
3:54
over young men. When athletes promote shoes,
3:57
the kids want the shoes. When they promote clothing,
3:59
the kids want the clothing. So why wouldn't we
4:01
pretend that influence suddenly disappears when
4:05
they're promoting gambling? It doesn't. Wemby
4:08
himself talked about the influence athletes have.
4:11
He said one of their greatest strengths isn't
4:13
their money. It's their ability to inspire people,
4:17
either positively or negatively. And that's the
4:20
part of the story I think deserves more attention.
4:22
I've worked in the gambling field for more than
4:24
30 years, and I've watched the relationship between
4:27
sports and gambling completely change. Young
4:30
men today aren't simply being offered gambling.
4:33
They're increasingly being taught that gambling
4:37
is part of being a sports fan. Watch the game.
4:41
Check the odds. Build the parlay. Make the predictions.
4:44
Place the bet. And then do it again tomorrow.
4:48
So maybe the biggest story isn't that Wemby said
4:51
no to gambling money. Maybe the story is, why
4:55
is this so unusual? When a professional athlete
4:58
promotes a sports book or gambling product, he's
5:01
not just selling an app. He's lending the product
5:04
his credibility or her credibility, as we've
5:08
seen in the past. And to a 16, 18, or 21 -year
5:11
-old fan, that could send a powerful message
5:14
that this is normal. That's what sports fans
5:16
do. Wemby chose a different message. You can
5:20
love basketball without betting on basketball.
5:23
You can be one of the biggest stars in sports
5:25
and decide that some money is just not worth
5:28
taking. And maybe professional sports needs a
5:30
few more athletes willing to say, without me.
5:34
This next story is personal for me. From the
5:37
mid -1980s until 2000, I owned a bunch of baseball
5:41
card stores. I remember the business before live
5:44
breaks, social media, and influencers. Kids came
5:47
into my store looking for their favorite players.
5:49
They built sets, traded cards, checked price
5:52
guides, and saved the money for that rookie card
5:55
they really wanted. Now, I don't want to pretend
5:58
there wasn't an element of gambling in the card
6:00
business in my day. There was. Some stores ran
6:03
what was called pack wars, where opening packs
6:06
became a competition with winners and losers.
6:10
I wouldn't allow those in my store. And once
6:13
manufacturers began putting odds on the packs
6:15
of cards, looking for memorabilia, limited parallel
6:22
cards or autograph cards, I watched adults open
6:26
box, crack box after box, boxes, trying to get
6:29
that big star. I discouraged that too. In fact,
6:34
I always joked that I might have created the
6:36
first responsible gambling, responsible gambling
6:39
card, baseball card shops. I love the hobby.
6:43
and wanted people to enjoy collecting. But even
6:45
back then, I couldn't recognize when collecting
6:49
was starting to look more like gambling. The
6:51
difference today is the speed, access, technology,
6:54
and the ability to chase that next hit almost
6:57
endlessly online, especially for adolescents.
7:01
And there's another reason why this story is
7:03
personal for me. My own gambling started back
7:06
in the 60s, flipping baseball cards. We'd flip
7:09
cards against each other, and whoever won kept
7:11
the cards. It seemed like innocent fun, but at
7:14
the age of nine, I lost my entire collection
7:17
matching colors with a kid from my neighborhood.
7:20
I could see that some of my earliest experiences
7:23
with risk, winning, losing, and wanting to win
7:27
it back started with the baseball cards. But
7:30
something has changed. Back then, I probably
7:33
saw a culture of collecting. Today, parts of
7:36
the hobby are increasingly about chasing. And
7:39
after more than 30 years working in the gambling
7:41
field, that gets my attention. Take card breaks.
7:46
Participants buy spots and boxes of cards, open
7:48
live and watch them open live online. Maybe you
7:53
get a team, maybe a player, and then you watch.
7:55
You put up the money, the excitement builds.
7:57
Did I hit? Someone pulls a rare card. Everybody
8:01
reacts. And if it wasn't you, there's always
8:04
another break. Recent reporting has documented.
8:08
escalating spending and loss of control behaviors
8:10
around card breaking. Researchers are paying
8:13
attention too. One recent study described trading
8:16
card and collectible packs as gambling -like
8:20
products. And here's my concern. These aren't
8:24
adult -only products. Adolescents can experience
8:27
this years before they're legally allowed to
8:30
open a regular sportsbook account. And if you
8:33
think about what they're being exposed to, risk,
8:37
money, wait for an uncertain outcome, celebrate
8:41
the big hit, and if you don't get it, try again.
8:44
For a young person, that can begin normalizing
8:47
the same basic reward cycle we worry about with
8:51
gambling. I'm not saying that collecting sports
8:54
cards is gambling. I own baseball card stores.
8:58
I know how great of a hobby it can be, but I
9:02
also know gambling behavior, and I recognize
9:04
the pattern. Anticipation, uncertainty, the big
9:08
reveal, the big hit, disappointment, and then
9:12
wanting to try again. You know, that's why I
9:15
keep coming back to two words, collecting versus
9:19
chasing. Collecting is, I want a Michael Jordan
9:22
card. Chasing is, maybe the next one's going
9:25
to be the big one. And today's adolescence is
9:28
surrounded by sports betting, fantasy sports,
9:30
prediction markets, gaming, influences, card
9:33
breaks, and videos of people peeling cards. worth
9:36
thousands of dollars. I met our guest through
9:40
a guy who got a million dollar card and yet started
9:44
to develop a really bad problem with his gambling.
9:48
And that's important because young people aren't
9:51
just seeing cards anymore. They're seeing the
9:53
excitement, the reaction, and sometimes the money
9:56
attached to the card. So don't tell your kid
9:59
collecting is bad. Ask a better question. Are
10:02
you building a collection or are you chasing
10:04
a hit? And here's my favorite. If these cards
10:07
weren't worth any money, would you still want
10:10
them? I've seen this from both sides. The cards
10:13
may look familiar, but the environment around
10:16
them have changed. The question isn't simply
10:18
whether sports cards qualify as gambling. It's
10:21
what behaviors are we teaching young people before
10:24
they're even old enough to legally place a sports
10:27
bet? Collecting can be a great hobby, but when
10:30
collecting becomes chasing, we need to recognize
10:32
the difference. I'm Mark Lefkowitz and this is
10:35
Stop Betting Sports. Thank you, Mark. I'd like
10:38
to bring Alyx in straight away since what we've
10:41
just spoken about is card collecting. And I'd
10:46
like to have one of us explain to the audience
10:50
what gambling adjacent. means and looks like
10:53
um and then Jake you are very familiar with with
10:57
this too and young people so Alyx tell us a bit
11:01
about what you do and what is card collecting
11:03
and how what is your involvement and your history
11:05
with that Yeah. First of all, Deb, thank you
11:10
so much for having me on along with Dan and Mark
11:13
and Matt. Great to see you as always, Jake. It's
11:16
a pleasure to meet you. I feel like I've seen
11:18
your name before. We may have crossed paths over
11:21
the last year and a half at some point, but.
11:24
I just wanted to say, Mark, I really appreciate
11:27
the way you framed that introduction because
11:29
I think the distinction between collecting and
11:31
chasing is such an important one. And for anyone
11:34
listening, again, you know, my name is Alyx Effron.
11:36
I'm the founder of Collector sMD. And I want to
11:40
share just a little bit about the organization
11:41
just to give people a little bit of context.
11:45
So Collectors MD is a peer support education and
11:48
prevention platform that's focused on compulsive
11:50
collecting, overspending, and like Deb just said,
11:54
gambling adjacent behaviors. We started in the
11:56
collectible space, really primarily the hobby,
11:59
as we call it, the trading cards, the sports
12:02
cards, TCGs. TCG stands for trading card game,
12:06
so Pokemon, Magic of the Gathering, One Piece,
12:09
etc. But the conversation has grown much broader
12:13
because the same behavioral mechanics we see
12:16
in modern collecting show up in a lot of different
12:18
places now. And Mark just mentioned a few of
12:21
them. You have gaming, you have the blind boxes,
12:23
prediction markets, the stock market, investing,
12:27
live commerce. There's so many. environments,
12:30
consumer and digital environments that are built
12:32
around uncertainty, anticipation, scarcity, and
12:36
the possibility of the next hit. And for me,
12:38
this work is deeply personal because I'm a lifelong
12:42
collector, but I'm also... in recovery from gambling
12:45
addiction. My own experiences really showed me
12:49
just how blurry that line can become between
12:53
something you genuinely love and something that
12:55
starts controlling you. So for a long time, I
12:59
didn't necessarily recognize certain behaviors.
13:03
part of this same pattern right you can tell
13:05
yourself uh i'm not gambling i'm just i'm collecting
13:08
you know something i did as a kid or you know
13:10
i'm buying versus you know um you know or i'm
13:15
buying something that has value right or like
13:17
i can always sell it later right like we make
13:19
these justifications up in our in our heads but
13:22
underneath that the behavior can sometimes look
13:25
very similar right we're talking about the anticipation
13:27
the chase spending more than you had initially
13:30
intended trying to recover losses uh making you
13:34
know or feeling like the next purchase the next
13:36
break the next box or the next opportunity is
13:39
going to be the one that just changes everything
13:42
and that really is where Collectors MD came from
13:45
uh you know and again i'm glad that Marc talked
13:47
about his you know experience as a collector
13:50
as a lifelong hobbyist uh because i'm the same
13:52
way i i am a collector through and through it's
13:55
a part of my identity and so Collectors MD is
13:58
not anti -collecting we are not anti -hobby in
14:00
fact many of us you know our collectors ourselves
14:03
like like you know me and Marc and preserving
14:06
what is positive about collecting is a huge part
14:09
of the mission and the work we're doing what
14:11
we are trying to do is create language around
14:14
something that for a very long time you know
14:17
people didn't really know how to talk about right
14:20
there's a massive space or gap between you know,
14:24
saying I enjoy collecting and I have a diagnosed
14:27
gambling disorder. And people can experience,
14:30
you know, real financial, emotional and relationship
14:32
harm somewhere in that middle. And so historically,
14:37
you know, there just hasn't been much support
14:39
designed specifically for those people. So we're
14:42
trying to fill that gap, right? We host weekly
14:45
peer support meetings. We just hosted our 72nd
14:48
official CMD peer support meeting this past week.
14:52
where people can talk openly about what they're
14:54
experiencing without judgment. We provide education
14:57
and resources for collectors and families. We
15:00
work with behavioral health professionals, problem
15:02
gambling organizations. treatment centers, hobby
15:05
businesses, creators, and other industry stakeholders.
15:09
And a big part of our work is also prevention
15:11
and early prevention, right? Instead of waiting
15:14
until somebody has reached a crisis or lost everything,
15:19
we want to help people recognize the warning
15:21
signs much earlier. So we often encourage people
15:25
to ask themselves these questions. Are we hiding
15:27
purchases? Are we spending money we can't afford
15:30
to lose? Are we chasing after, you know, a bad
15:34
break or a bad purchase? Are we constantly thinking
15:37
about the next opportunity? Has collecting stopped
15:40
being enjoyable? Are there, you know, relationships
15:43
that are being impacted by our actions? I think
15:47
those questions, you know, are paramount, right?
15:50
Regardless of whether somebody wants to put a
15:53
specific label on the behavior and call themselves
15:56
an addict. And I don't think the message should
15:59
be that. you know cards are bad or that gaming
16:02
is bad or that you know you can't invest or that
16:04
every kid who opens a pack is somehow uh being
16:07
conditioned to become a gambler that would just
16:11
be oversimplification and you know i think a
16:13
lot of people you know tend to um kind of head
16:18
in that direction when this conversation comes
16:20
up but i think it's really important to at the
16:23
very least uh you know give the hobby that's
16:25
been around for 150 200 years the benefit of
16:29
the doubt right the concern that we see is more
16:32
so within the modern day environment right young
16:35
people children are growing up surrounded by
16:38
things like variable rewards micro transactions
16:41
blind boxes sports betting advertising everywhere
16:45
you look fantasy sports prediction markets influencers
16:48
celeb celebrating these enormous hits right you
16:54
have the live breaks you have the constant opportunity
16:56
to just keep spending and keep trying again right
16:59
so the questions really or the question really
17:02
becomes like how do we help young people understand
17:05
the difference between participating in something
17:08
because they genuinely enjoy it the way i did
17:11
as a kid the way Marc did as a kid the way many
17:13
of us have done you know, as children versus
17:17
repeatedly chasing an uncertain financial or
17:20
emotional reward. That's why we talk so much
17:24
about the word intentionality. So one of our
17:28
core messages is collect with intention, not
17:31
compulsion. I'll pause there. I can continue,
17:34
but I want to make sure I'm not going too long.
17:36
This is a good place to pause because Alyx, I
17:38
want to break it down as well that you run a
17:41
program for This is a very specific gambling
17:45
adjacent type of gambling that people can develop
17:51
an addiction to. But I really want to break those
17:54
pieces down and explain to the public what that
17:57
looks like. What is a microtransaction? And then
18:02
I'm going to come to you as well, Jake, because
18:03
you work with kids that have this. And so, sorry,
18:06
Matt. And thanks, Alyx. That was a great explanation
18:09
of your program. Really want to help the public
18:12
understand what collecting is and why this is
18:14
showing up as gambling. Matt? Yeah. Alyx, you're
18:18
doing great work. And obviously, thanks very
18:19
much for opening my eyes to this side of, I think,
18:25
gambling addiction, really. I think I would call
18:27
it a gambling addiction. I think it's very, very
18:28
similar. My interest really is in how I think
18:34
the rise of sports betting and the normalisation
18:36
of online gambling has... basically led to uh
18:40
much more investment in making products more
18:44
addictive and making platforms optimized for
18:47
engagement and a lot of other sectors have looked
18:50
at that and they've said wow that really works
18:53
you know let's just use some of those mechanics
18:56
in our on our platforms and that that could be
18:58
shopping apps or it could be social media or
19:01
it could be collecting so my question really
19:03
was to what extent do you think it's the collecting
19:06
that is addictive or do you think it's the platforms
19:09
themselves that are exploiting the very same
19:11
mechanics that the gambling industry uses. And
19:15
is there a responsibility on those platforms
19:18
to be, you know, not trying to encourage people
19:20
to spend more than they plan to and all that
19:22
kind of stuff? I think it's very, very admirable
19:24
what you're doing in educating young people in
19:27
particular and the public around intentionality.
19:29
I think it's fantastic. But I wonder whether
19:31
there's a, you know, a responsibility on the
19:34
platforms themselves to kind of, you know, put
19:36
some guardrails in. Yeah, and that's something
19:39
we're actively trying to do within the collectibles
19:43
industry, right? We firmly believe that in order
19:46
to make a real impact, to really reach people
19:49
where they are, we have to have a seat at the
19:51
table. We have to be inside the environments
19:53
where people are potentially experiencing those
19:55
harms. So we work or we are working towards working
20:00
with some of the major operators in this space.
20:02
to basically help them out, provide insight and
20:07
recommendations for how to adapt and how to grow
20:13
and evolve as an industry, right? Because just
20:16
like any other maturing industry, you're going
20:18
to see a sense of reform. You're going to see
20:20
a sense of evolution. And that could be consumer
20:24
safety features. It could be the platform or
20:29
the type of platform that the product is being
20:32
consumed on, right? Because it's a lot different
20:34
today than when we were children. And in order
20:38
to buy a pack of cards, you had to walk to your
20:39
brick and mortar store. You had to transact with
20:42
another human being, maybe sit at the table,
20:44
open up a box, then decide if you're going to
20:46
make another purchase, right? Maybe you take
20:48
it home and you open it there. You're not in
20:51
this frictionless environment where you can just
20:54
keep buying over and over again by pressing a
20:57
button, right? For us, we are working towards
21:01
helping the platforms create guardrails, create
21:05
oversight. We're not going to say regulation
21:07
because like that's not our jurisdiction. We're
21:10
not watchdogs. We're not policing the hobby.
21:12
We're not trying to create new. bylaws or anything
21:14
like that we're just trying to help them create
21:16
safer experiences for the consumer and one other
21:20
thing that again i just want to reiterate like
21:23
the cards themselves aren't the problem and i
21:25
would be careful about saying you know that the
21:28
platforms themselves are the problem too right
21:31
the concern is what can happen when certain products
21:34
platform features and individual vulnerabilities
21:37
come together right dad brought up the uh the
21:41
term gambling adjacent earlier like that's what
21:44
we call we're not saying it's gambling it's gambling
21:46
adjacent right cards can be collected in a completely
21:50
healthy and intentional way platforms can also
21:53
provide things like community access, entertainment,
21:56
and legitimate commerce, right? The risk increases
22:00
when the environment emphasizes things like the
22:03
constant access and the rapid fire purchasing
22:05
and the randomized outcomes and the countdown
22:07
timers, scarcity, social pressure, you know,
22:10
the list goes on. But, you know, again, it really
22:14
comes down to the gambling -like mechanics that
22:17
are embedded into these platforms that we're
22:20
paying closer attention to. I kind of want to
22:22
go to both, Matt, to answer your question. My
22:24
reaction to that question is both. Both are playing
22:29
a part in it, but if you've got a vulnerability
22:31
to developing the addiction, you're in trouble.
22:33
Dan, can you articulate further gambling adjacent
22:38
so that people understand what that means as
22:44
clinicians, how we look at the DSM -5 criteria
22:47
and what... what we define a gambling addiction
22:51
as. And then we've got up, we've got, you know,
22:53
we say, what's your gambling of choice, if it
22:57
were, right? And there's certain forms of gambling
22:59
or things that people do to spend all this money
23:04
and they come in with the same. symptoms in crisis
23:08
right but there are certain things that aren't
23:11
legally classified as gambling but i'd like this
23:13
is a really good place to go and and then jake
23:17
i'd love to um hear what what you're experiencing
23:19
with kids and and something we call ripping with
23:22
cards well it I think it's just what an adolescent
23:28
or a kid is naturally drawn to. And so if someone
23:31
loves Disney characters or Pokemon, then they
23:34
are going to go down a Disney or Pokemon rabbit
23:37
hole. And that can be really great. They can
23:39
just learn more about these things. And the Pokemon
23:41
characters are very creative and they can play
23:44
games with Pokemon. But then there's a darker
23:46
side to Pokemon and Disney and baseball and football.
23:50
There's a darker side to all of it. And that
23:53
interest, which is. innocent and fun and childlike
23:58
can turn into something compulsive. Like you
24:01
want to get the Pokemon card at all costs. And
24:05
there's a chance to spend. five dollars and get
24:08
a five thousand dollar card which is enticing
24:10
to any adolescent i mean i i'm in my childhood
24:14
home once again and i had a i have a cardboard
24:16
box of cards here and i remember taking out the
24:19
tops catalog and looking up how much these cards
24:21
were worth and it was really exciting with each
24:24
annual edition to find out how they've appreciated
24:27
super exciting when when you're a teenager so
24:31
all of the thing that you have this thing that
24:33
appreciates in value or you can flip a card very
24:37
quickly and pokemon can become a side gig or
24:41
a side hustle or you know and there's a lot of
24:43
influencers encouraging uh something that is
24:46
not accurate and then can develop a compulsion
24:49
that then looks like gambling disorder where
24:52
you're preoccupied with cards you're involved
24:55
in in in the activity for more hours than you
24:58
want um you're chasing um you're lying about
25:02
it you know People used to, you know, lie. Yeah,
25:05
mom, I'm doing my homework type stuff, right?
25:08
That's always happened. But, you know, you're
25:10
not doing your homework and you're on your computer
25:12
for hours and hours and hours losing sleep, investigating
25:17
and betting at night. And that's where this stuff
25:20
can become very problematic very quickly. Like
25:24
you can develop a problem with this stuff, I'm
25:27
convinced, within, let's just say weeks, in a
25:31
very... quick time if you have that vulnerability
25:33
and you get plugged in it can turn bad very quickly
25:38
and and pokemon becomes like a devil a devil
25:42
pokemon and baseball players you know become
25:45
you know something very very uh dangerous and
25:49
hard to pull away from So we know that the adolescent
25:53
brain is more susceptible to this stuff. So people
25:56
age 15, 16 and up and younger can get hooked
25:59
very quickly. And that's when I see them, whether
26:02
it's sports, whether it's crypto, whether it's
26:05
options, whatever it is, it can turn into addiction
26:09
very quickly. Yeah. Jake, what are you seeing
26:13
with adolescents at the moment with cards and
26:15
ripping cards? And I really want to explain what...
26:20
What it means, you buy a card, it could be a
26:22
player card, it could be a player cards like
26:24
sports athletes, right? And you buy a card. This
26:29
is if you're really into this specific card buying
26:33
type, right? And this card will appreciate in
26:37
value or you're hoping it will appreciate in
26:39
value. And at some point you sell that card and
26:42
that is in itself the thing that can become compulsive.
26:47
but but ripping is different and so please explain
26:50
that yeah i think it with all of these things
26:54
the the conversation of is it gambling addiction
26:56
is it shopping addiction is it tech addiction
26:58
is it gaming addiction can get really murky um
27:03
as i look at the website just as we're talking
27:05
about them you've got um responsible gaming responsible
27:09
gambling responsible shopping on each of them
27:11
so all of them are trying to have some resource
27:14
related to the fact that what we do is addictive
27:17
um but with cards i think it's really interesting
27:22
um i i went to the third street promenade in
27:26
santa monica last week and i was walking down
27:29
the street and i walked by a a gotcha store which
27:32
is gotcha is a japanese word for and i might
27:36
be butchering this for gachapon which are uh
27:39
vending machines not slot machines that have
27:42
little uh plastic balls in them that might have
27:45
a figurine And the idea is that they're all little
27:48
mini collectible things. So you're watching little
27:51
kids in the same mechanic that we might do a
27:53
gumball when we were younger. That's not a new
27:58
thing. There's different toys and different items.
28:02
So I go there and I see kids everywhere just
28:06
shoveling coins into these slot machines or into
28:09
these vending machines. I walk down the street
28:13
further and I see a card shop. And I stop in.
28:18
I just kind of see what's happening there. And
28:21
yeah, you've got people there that are certainly
28:23
there because they love it. They love the cards.
28:26
But then you've got a whole new army of people.
28:30
You've got people at these vending machines.
28:32
I don't know if you've seen Pokemon vending machines
28:33
at your local Target or grocery store. But they
28:37
always seem to be empty. And apparently there's
28:40
a whole issue of scalpers will line up. to clear
28:44
out these vending machines before the kid who
28:47
loves Pokemon can get to them. And in some instances,
28:50
I've read that there's been instances where a
28:53
scalper will go to the vending machine, clear
28:56
it out, and then sell it back to the people who
28:59
are waiting in line behind them, which I feel
29:01
like is the most just emblematic of exactly what
29:04
that is. So when I talk about this, I'm putting
29:09
together a presentation. for next week and i
29:12
start off with a video of cards with mickey mantel
29:15
of this comes in your cereal and kids talking
29:18
about collecting all of them and Marc as you
29:22
mentioned like there's always been an element
29:23
of i hope i get something valuable that comes
29:26
along with the collecting when i was a kid in
29:29
1999 and pokemon became really popular i remember
29:33
begging my mom can you get me this shiny rare
29:36
pokemon card mom do you know what this is going
29:39
to be worth one day and she said nothing and
29:42
she was wrong but like the culture of it when
29:46
i was doing that if you were to say pokemon is
29:48
gambling in 1999 it would sound ridiculous and
29:52
if you were to say it today it is completely
29:54
reasonable and i feel like there's so many things
29:58
around that um but Alyx like you mentioned when
30:02
i've spoken to kids at schools and i've talked
30:04
about Pokemon cards and how they can be addictive.
30:07
I had a kid walk up to me once and say, now all
30:11
the kids are going to make fun of me for liking
30:12
Pokemon cards. And I said, there's nothing inherently
30:17
wrong with having a hobby. There's nothing inherently
30:20
wrong with liking video games. It's that these
30:23
things can get addictive sometimes when we do
30:25
it too much. So, yeah, the amount of ways that
30:30
there are to target kids now with gambling and
30:34
gaming. are endless. Long -winded, your question
30:37
about rips. We've got these apps and games where
30:42
you essentially rip open a digital pack of cards.
30:45
So you swipe your finger across the screen. You
30:48
see the package open with a really exciting animation
30:50
that is essentially a slot machine. And then
30:53
you see the card that comes up. And if it's a
30:55
really exciting card, if it's a hit, you get
30:58
a big flashing thing and it shows you the dollar
31:00
value immediately of what that card is valued
31:03
at. And you can either hit sell, which is essentially
31:07
putting the money back in the slot machine to
31:09
try again. Or you can put it in your vault and
31:12
have it shipped to you for a fee. So you see
31:15
these things that already can be addictive. You
31:18
don't need one of those apps to get addicted
31:20
to breaking open packs in a store. But on top
31:24
of it, now we've got app design that's literally
31:27
a slot machine. And you start with $1 Pokemon
31:31
cards, at least in the app that I'm thinking
31:32
of. And then if you want to do baseball cards,
31:35
it starts at $25 packs. And if you want to do
31:37
one piece collectible anime cards, it starts
31:40
at like $50. So they've taken something that's
31:44
already somewhat addictive naturally, attractive
31:48
to kids, and they have really ramped it up with
31:51
as much gambling mechanic as possible to get
31:55
an endless scroll the same way as TikTok so that
31:57
kids keep using it. So yeah, you're seeing an
32:00
endless amount of places of what kids are exposed
32:02
to. I think what you just said, Jake, is I want
32:06
to go back to, I usually talk a lot about this.
32:09
We have no idea who, we have an idea, maybe that's
32:14
even better, of who's going to get addicted.
32:16
Me, I had a genetic line in my family of gamblers,
32:22
right? Kids that are bullied, other reasons,
32:26
kids that might have ADHD or OCD or whatever.
32:31
They're going to, you know, it happened in my
32:33
case. In my case, just to give you an example,
32:35
I was buying cards. I found a distributor. We're
32:40
talking about 1962, 1963, where I can buy five
32:43
packs of cards for 20 cents. So if I had two
32:48
dimes, I was in action. And you'd throw all the
32:52
bubble gum, which was even better. And now I'm
32:54
looking back at it, the sugar rush from throwing
32:57
five sticks of bubble gum in your mouth that
32:59
was really sugary baseball. you know, and getting
33:03
the cards. And, you know, here's like, I don't
33:05
know if you could see, you probably can't, a
33:07
nice 62 Chris Cannizzaro card. He was a Met.
33:10
I would trade a Mickey Mantle for that card because
33:13
there was really not that value. You know, you're
33:15
collected by who you like, what your teams were
33:18
and whatnot. But in terms of gambling for me,
33:22
because I always believed that environment, you
33:24
know, we used to flip cards. I grew up in very
33:26
big neighborhoods with lots of kids in Brooklyn.
33:30
There's different ways of flipping. I would flip
33:32
heads or tails. I was a short kid. You know,
33:35
you would hold a card and you would flip it.
33:37
And if it came heads or so, I could flip a hundred
33:40
heads in a row. I won all the cards. Where was
33:43
the fun in that? There was not, you know, I guess
33:45
even at eight or nine, there was not enough dopamine
33:47
and ended up losing all my cards in what I said
33:50
before in matching colors, which was on a pure
33:53
game of the flop. You know, I needed that, you
33:57
know, the uncertainty. In order to get off even
34:00
at nine. And then sort of what I said in my story,
34:08
you know, how that sort of accelerated my gambling.
34:11
I didn't learn from that lesson. I could picture
34:13
where I was at nine when I lost all my cards.
34:16
You would think you would never do that again.
34:19
But it just sort of exaggerated. But going back
34:22
to Jake, though, you know, the fact that we don't
34:26
know who's going to get addicted. People can
34:29
get addicted real easy. What are we doing to
34:30
prevent it? Why aren't, you know, there's almost
34:33
nothing that says the harm in any single one
34:37
of the products from baseball cards to sports
34:40
betting. Zero. You know, I know Matt and I think
34:45
Rob, you're working on a really good project
34:48
yourselves on getting out the truth. We don't
34:52
hear it at all. But what could be done, you know?
34:56
If I could ask Jake, what could be done in schools?
34:59
What could we do to at least teach kids about
35:03
the harm or to identify kids that might be more
35:06
prone to develop a gambling problem? Because
35:10
I think with adults, it's too late. Yeah, one
35:13
thing, well, when you talk about people that
35:15
are vulnerable to gambling, one thing that doesn't
35:18
help is that we are all addicted in some capacity
35:21
to our phones. If you see... someone scrolling
35:25
through TikTok, the mechanics of hoping that
35:28
you'll, you know, in our brain, hoping that you'll
35:30
get a video that you like is similar to what
35:32
happens in the mind of looking at a slot machine.
35:37
If we can do things to take the talk that we
35:41
give to kids, in my opinion, and pull it away
35:44
from showing this is a slot machine, this is
35:47
a casino, here's the gambler's fallacy, near
35:51
misses, all of that is really important to add.
35:54
but if you can zoom out more and draw a through
35:57
line to microtransactions and being addicted
36:00
to buying currency in minecraft or to your mom
36:04
playing candy crush and keeps buying coins over
36:07
and over again if we can make a through line
36:09
to you are being primed to learn how to gamble
36:12
because right now we see 18 to 24 year olds as
36:15
the fastest growing demographic of gamblers With
36:19
where we're at on kids' games and loot boxes
36:22
and microtransactions and Pokemon cards and NFTs
36:28
and all of the gamblification in their face,
36:30
when those kids are 18 to 24, I got to imagine
36:34
in a couple years we're going to see a major
36:36
explosion beyond what we already have. So I think
36:41
talking about addictive mechanics, dopamine technology
36:44
in general, and helping kids to recognize that,
36:49
I think media literacy, like when you see your
36:53
favorite YouTuber sell a Pokemon card for $16
36:56
million and then go on to wrestle the next day
37:00
and look like this cool guy and know that if
37:03
I do that, if I rip open the Pokemon pack, I
37:06
might be just like him. I think the social media
37:10
talk, the gaming addiction talk, the tech addiction
37:13
talk, and the gambling addiction talk really
37:16
complement each other. So that's something that
37:20
I'm trying to put together on how to make a bigger
37:23
picture of technology and addiction and point
37:26
out how it's not just limited to technology because
37:29
you can go into a Pokemon store or a card store
37:31
and rip open packs there. The last store I stopped
37:35
in at, I asked the guy, I said, I'm a therapist
37:39
focused on gambling addiction and I'm just curious.
37:43
He said that he's seen kids come in and they
37:45
just open packs over and over and over again.
37:48
They'll see adults come in and spend tens of
37:51
thousands of dollars opening the really big packs.
37:54
So it's everywhere. And I think drawing those
37:58
connections and through lines can help kids recognize
38:00
the shared mechanics and destigmatize being addicted
38:04
to something with technology. Yeah, Alyx, I've
38:07
got some thoughts and questions for you, but
38:09
what are your thoughts on what Jake's sharing?
38:11
Yeah, first of all, Jake. Man, like I feel like
38:14
we've crossed paths, but I didn't realize how
38:17
much work you're doing in prevention as it pertains
38:20
to, you know, things like gaming and digital
38:23
wellness. So we absolutely have to like we have
38:27
to connect after this, perhaps, you know, sometime
38:31
in the next week or two. But yeah, I mean, a
38:33
lot of what Jake and Marc are talking about here.
38:36
The biggest difference today is that consuming
38:39
cards is no longer limited to walking into a
38:42
shop, buying a pack or a box, opening it and
38:45
going home. There are just so many new ways and
38:48
different ways to participate. And some of those
38:51
formats can make the experience just so much
38:54
faster, so much more frictionless, obviously
38:57
more social and just continuous. It's 24 -7 access.
39:02
And so card breaking, we haven't talked about
39:04
breaking. And that's a term that we often use
39:07
in the hobby. It's become synonymous with the
39:11
hobby and card collecting. So the concept of
39:15
breaking is that instead of one person buying
39:17
an entire box or going to a store and buying
39:22
a single card and making a concerted decision
39:25
as to what they're buying, a breaker... or essentially
39:29
a dealer, is essentially selling spots within
39:32
a box or a case of boxes. And so those spots
39:36
might correspond to a team, it could be a player,
39:40
a division, a serial number, what we call a parallel,
39:43
or another category. So the breaker then opens
39:46
the cards, usually on a live platform, a live
39:49
digital platform, while people are watching,
39:51
they're streaming, and whatever cards match your
39:55
spot, they get sent to you. So for example, I'm
39:59
a big Yankee fan. And, you know, I'll caveat
40:01
by saying, you know, sports is something that
40:05
I believe we could still consume and enjoy and
40:07
not gamble on. I watched the Yankees game last
40:10
night. We unfortunately lost, but that's. sort
40:15
of a good comparison to how collecting could
40:18
still be something that has redeeming qualities.
40:21
So for example, you might buy the Yankees in
40:24
a baseball box break. And so if Yankee cards
40:27
come out of the box, if it's Aaron Judge or Cam
40:30
Schlittler, those are yours. Those cards are
40:34
yours. And if they do not, you may get very little
40:36
or sometimes nothing of value from that break.
40:39
there are also a lot of different break formats
40:42
right again you can have pick your team random
40:44
team random player all of these different uh
40:47
variations right they've hit drafts they call
40:51
them some are relatively straightforward and
40:53
others introduce additional layers of randomness
40:56
scarcity competition urgency then you have what's
41:00
called a personal right and so Where instead
41:04
of buying a spot in a shared break, someone just
41:06
buys an entire box or a pack or a product from
41:10
a live seller and has it open for them on stream.
41:14
So instead of going to the store and opening
41:15
the box yourself, you're having somebody open
41:17
the contents of the box for you. And that can
41:20
happen one after another, sometimes for a long
41:23
period of time. That's really where I, you know,
41:26
went down a slippery slope. You can buy another,
41:34
you might miss, you may feel this unrelenting
41:37
need to just keep trying, right? And because
41:40
the next purchase can be available almost immediately,
41:43
there's very little natural stopping point, especially
41:46
when you're chasing after the case hit or, you
41:50
know, the one of one or the low numbered Shohei
41:53
Otani or Aaron Judge autograph that. the breaker
41:56
is, you know, telling you, hey, like the next
41:58
box is going to have it. And that is where really
42:01
the modern environment becomes so important,
42:03
right? It's not just about the cards themselves.
42:05
You have... I keep talking about the countdown
42:08
timers, auctions, live auctions, the chat reactions,
42:12
influencers, limited time offers, big hits being
42:16
celebrated in real time, and just constant access
42:19
through your phone. So the experience can become
42:21
much more than simply just buying a card or buying
42:24
a box. It can turn into this continuous cycle
42:27
of anticipation, purchase, reveal, reaction,
42:31
and the immediate opportunity. to just keep going.
42:34
And that's why, that's really the nuance we try
42:37
to explain. We're not saying that buying a pack
42:41
at a card shop or joining a break or ripping
42:43
a personal is inherently harmful. A lot of people
42:46
participate, you know, recreationally and genuinely
42:48
enjoy the entertainment community and collecting
42:51
aspects. The concern is what happens when the
42:54
behavior starts to shift, especially with people
42:56
that, like Dan said earlier, are vulnerable,
42:59
right? Or maybe like uneducated and unaware of
43:02
the environment they're in, like the youth, right?
43:05
And so... What makes breaking different from
43:08
simply just buying a single or even these instant
43:12
rips that Jake is talking about is that you know
43:15
that you're often paying before you know exactly
43:19
what you're going to receive. There's uncertainty.
43:22
There's a live reveal. There's the possibility
43:23
of a rare, valuable hit. And then another opportunity
43:26
to participate happens almost immediately. Again,
43:31
for some people, that's just purely entertainment.
43:33
They're paying for a layer of entertainment as
43:36
part of the experience. But for others, especially
43:39
those that are vulnerable to compulsive behavior,
43:42
that environment can make it much harder to recognize
43:44
when collecting has started turning into chasing.
43:46
And that's why educating parents is so important.
43:51
Alyx, do you not think though that the ability
43:54
to do this through your smartphone? do it repeatedly
43:59
within a short space of time. The countdown timers,
44:04
the ability to sell the item back to the platform,
44:08
the fact that you can see in real time the value
44:12
of that going up and down. Is this not attracting,
44:16
not collectors, but speculators? Is this not
44:20
attracting people who want to gamble and they're
44:23
using these platforms as a mechanism to gamble
44:26
rather than... I feel like there's clearly been
44:30
an evolution in how people engage with... What's
44:33
happened here, Matt, is that these industries
44:37
have analyzed the gambling industry and they've
44:42
been so successful with this one particular format
44:45
or this formula. And they're essentially borrowing
44:48
a page from the playbook and applying it to the
44:50
user experience. So you're 100 % right in that
44:53
it's not just... you know, collectors, it's speculators,
44:57
it's people who want to gamble. It's a wide range
45:01
of individuals that they're targeting. But absolutely,
45:03
these are the individuals that are experiencing
45:06
a lot of the harm. I mean, again, we talk about
45:10
that all the time, Alyx, but I want to go back
45:13
on what Matt's question is like, isn't this attracting
45:15
gambling? As you are, you have a harm reduction
45:18
lens. And for the public, right, as this is a
45:22
raising awareness platform here right harm reduction
45:26
is not is like giving the option of not completely
45:29
abstaining from what you're addicted to but tapering
45:34
it down to a place where it is safe enough so
45:37
that you can function in your life but a harm
45:40
reduction lens with car collecting as your platform
45:43
is it's kind of Holding space for, from what
45:47
I've understood, is holding space for something
45:50
that is a hobby, for something that is innocent,
45:53
nostalgic, fun, right? But what Jake said earlier
45:56
is that ripping is exactly the same as a slot
46:02
machine on a phone. And what Matt's saying, and
46:04
we talk about what you're saying. Alyx, a lot
46:07
about how the industry are using AI and honing
46:11
in on people who are vulnerable to addiction,
46:13
digital addiction. This is all kind of one. So
46:16
what I'm wondering about, how do you monitor
46:19
and provide, highlight those risks to your population
46:29
that come on to your platform and your program
46:36
um how do you help collectors identify the difference
46:42
between healthy collecting and make sure that
46:46
they safeguard themselves from those slot machine
46:49
type um motivations digitally such as ripping
46:54
which is and further to that are there any platforms
46:58
that you would maybe recommend that are less
47:00
sort of geared towards all of that stuff Yeah,
47:04
like Deb said, like a big part of what we do
47:07
is helping people recognize that this isn't simply
47:11
just a line between healthy and unhealthy. It's
47:14
so much more nuanced than that. We're not looking
47:17
at a specific product or activity and saying
47:19
like, this is. this is bad we are looking at
47:22
the relationship somebody has with it so two
47:25
people can participate in the exact same experience
47:28
you know let's call it a break open the or open
47:31
the same product or spend the exact same amount
47:34
of money and have completely different experiences
47:37
right for one person it may be entertainment
47:39
within a budget for another it may be part of
47:42
a pattern of chasing hiding spending financial
47:46
stress emotional mental and relational fallout
47:49
or just feeling unable to stop. So when we talk
47:52
about risk, we focus much more on behavior, motivation,
47:56
impact, and control than on the activity itself.
48:01
So we help collectors really ask, you know, internalize
48:05
and self -reflect and ask questions like, am
48:07
I buying this because I genuinely want it or
48:10
because I'm chasing a feeling? Can I walk away
48:13
after a disappointing outcome? Am I spending
48:16
within my limits that I established beforehand
48:19
or am I just continually moving beyond those
48:23
limits? Am I hiding purchases or minimizing how
48:26
much I spend? Is this still enjoyable when I'm
48:30
not? you know hitting a big card is it affecting
48:32
my finances my relationships my sleep my work
48:35
my mood right those are the kinds of signals
48:37
that can tell you much more than simply asking
48:40
how you know how many cards someone buys we also
48:45
continuously pay attention to how the industry
48:48
is evolving right so you have new products coming
48:50
out all the time you have all these new gimmicky
48:54
formats right you have live commerce features
48:56
you have mystery products gamification scarcity
48:59
mechanics all these new ways of buying that can
49:02
change the environment very very rapidly so our
49:06
role is to help our community understand those
49:09
mechanics educate people not just people but
49:11
uh you know the youth and their parents right
49:14
and the potential risks that are associated with
49:17
this environment without sensationalizing them
49:22
or telling them that participating automatically
49:25
means they have a problem. And we try to provide
49:28
that information in a way that really allows
49:30
people to locate themselves on a spectrum, right?
49:34
Healthy collecting generally has boundaries.
49:37
You can enjoy it. You can budget for it. You
49:39
can walk away from it and still enjoy your life.
49:43
When you don't get the outcome you wanted, riskier
49:46
collectors or riskier collecting starts to look
49:49
a little bit different. The limits become, you
49:52
know, more flexible. Maybe you start justifying
49:54
the next purchase. The chase becomes more important
49:57
than the collection or the item itself. And spending
50:02
increases after losses or disappointing outcomes,
50:06
right? The activity starts just taking up like.
50:09
and occupying more mental and emotional bandwidth.
50:12
And it stops becoming, you know, harder even
50:17
when the person knows there are consequences,
50:20
right? Harder to stop. And so the key question
50:23
is not simply like, how much are you collecting
50:25
or how much are you spending? The question is
50:27
like, what is collecting doing to you? That's
50:30
really the philosophy behind our harm reduction
50:33
approach of what we call intentional collecting.
50:36
We want collectors to develop enough self -awareness
50:39
to recognize, to really be able to recognize
50:41
a shift, right, before someone else has to point
50:46
it out to them. And because there's no single
50:49
threshold that applies to everyone, we aren't
50:51
trying to diagnose people. We're just trying
50:54
to provide. tools and resources, language, peer
50:58
support, and really education that will help
51:02
them honestly evaluate their own behavior. And
51:05
for some people, that leads to setting stronger
51:07
boundaries and collecting more intentionally
51:09
for others and might be walking away, taking
51:11
a break. And for someone who recognizes that
51:14
they can't safely participate anymore, it might
51:17
mean abstaining completely and connecting with
51:20
additional recovery or clinical support. Last
51:23
thing I'll say is that spectrum is so important
51:25
because our goal is not to tell people how to
51:28
collect. It's to help people understand the relationship
51:31
with collecting and recognize when something,
51:34
you know, that starts as a hobby, you know, is
51:38
starting to really create harm. You know, just
51:42
quick, just really quick. One quick thing is
51:45
I always told my customers an unopened pack is
51:49
worth a lot more money than an open pack. Once
51:51
you open the pack, it's dead. The unopened pack
51:55
could have the most expensive card. It's always
51:56
worth as much as what that is. But I want to
51:59
ask Matt a question. We get a lot of parents
52:03
here in the show. How is Gambam helping? I said
52:07
Gambam. I'm sorry. I did that again. How is Gambam
52:10
helping? So to Alyx's point, if people do want
52:15
to quit, we've got the... these platforms on
52:20
Gamban's block list. So we do recognize that
52:23
some people will develop symptoms of a gambling
52:27
addiction associated with this activity. So we
52:30
block it. So if people want to quit, they're
52:32
finding that this is a problem, they're doing
52:34
this too much, they want to abstain, download
52:36
Gamban onto your devices and it will block access
52:38
to the platforms. You can't self -exclude from
52:40
these platforms, right? Because they're not regulated.
52:42
There's no oversight. There's no governing body
52:45
that's saying like, you know, There needs to
52:48
be cool off periods or, you know, spend limitations
52:52
or anything like that. Some of them are proactively
52:55
integrating them into their overall user experience.
52:58
But at the moment, Gamban is really the only
53:01
option for people to be able to at least create
53:04
a barrier, right? At least create like a pause
53:08
between impulse and purchase. And Dan, just to
53:12
give the public an idea on severity and what
53:15
it looks like on the clinical side, as we have
53:18
and are working with people with collecting addictions,
53:23
like, let's talk about how severe can this get?
53:28
Well, it can become, you know, completely devastating
53:31
where you're cut off from your friends, you're,
53:35
you know, alone and gambling and going through
53:39
cycles of anxiety and panic about the losses
53:43
and chasing, sleep deprivation, depression, suicidal
53:46
ideation, it gets to a point of real, genuine
53:51
psychological despair and anguish at its very
53:55
worst. But there was so much I wanted to, you
53:58
know, comment on Alyx's points. You know, just
54:02
like cocaine and cigarettes and alcohol, some
54:05
people will do cocaine once and they know that
54:08
they're a cocaine addict. They know that they
54:10
like this stuff very much. So the exposure to
54:13
it can really trigger the vulnerability that's
54:17
been there dormant. And it's going to be different
54:19
for every person. A lot of this has to do with
54:24
someone who may feel that they have a problem.
54:27
Looking at the mirror and those dormant feelings
54:30
in their subconscious that this is problematic
54:32
to really kind of try to unearth them to understand
54:36
that, wow, this is not what I want my collecting
54:39
to be. This is not what I want to be doing online.
54:42
And to really speak to that part of people that
54:45
know deep down that they're scared that they
54:49
can't control this compulsion to either, you
54:51
know, sports bet or rip cards. you know as we're
54:56
talking more you know i'm i'm so saddened by
55:00
how sophisticated and brilliant and smart the
55:03
industry is in the gambling groups we do we say
55:06
often that the opposite of addiction is connection
55:08
and now they're simulating connection with card
55:12
ripping and and this you know we're we're taking
55:15
turns doing this. And there's a bonding that
55:18
is being manipulated to perpetuate this activity,
55:22
which is just very, very sad because it takes
55:25
a lot of work to create that connection among
55:28
five or eight problem gamblers that are trying
55:31
to stop. There's some real heavy lifting, but
55:33
it's very inherent and plugged into these platforms
55:36
to get this sense of you're not alone. We're
55:38
doing this together. And it's just a bummer for
55:41
me, you know, just. It's hard to undo that damage
55:45
because it's not just about ripping cards. It's
55:48
about the community behind it. Yeah, and Dan,
55:52
you have and do and have worked personally with
55:55
people who are addicted to collecting. We're
55:59
talking thousands upon thousands upon thousands
56:03
of dollars. What I'm hearing anecdotally is that
56:06
the rooms of GA are increasingly filled with...
56:09
card rippers and and you know former collectors
56:12
now problematic um card rippers can i jump in
56:15
there real quick dan on that note um that's exactly
56:19
what i experienced myself right like i'd go to
56:22
ga this was years ago i'd walk into a room i'd
56:25
talk about my gambling experience within traditional
56:27
environments but then i'd bring up you know the
56:30
spending within uh the with the cards and even
56:33
before the cards the sneakers the collectibles
56:35
just this you know um unrelenting need, desire
56:40
to just keep chasing the next hit, right? And
56:43
I talk about the breaks and I talk about all
56:46
the nuances and it would just go right over people's
56:48
heads. They're like, how could baseball cards
56:51
have any correlation to, you know, a blackjack
56:55
hand or, you know, a parlay? Like it just didn't
56:59
make sense to them, which is why it was so important
57:01
for me to create the platform, the space that
57:04
I wish existed when I was really in the throes
57:06
of my addiction. Yeah. And similarly, the program
57:09
I do is, you know, it's more broadened to online
57:13
digital gambling generally. But we saw a major
57:17
cultural divide between brick and mortar gamblers,
57:20
people that are, you know, shooting craps and
57:22
playing slots in the casino. And then just the
57:24
instant everything of the availability of various
57:28
forms of gaming and gambling and the crossover
57:30
on their phones. Yeah. And Jake, you wanted to
57:34
share something real quick, didn't you? Did you
57:36
have something? I'm sorry if I interrupted you,
57:38
Jake. No, you didn't. No, no, no. I just messaged
57:41
Deb before when we were talking about it. I wanted
57:44
to show you guys, if anyone hasn't seen this,
57:46
this is what it looks like when you rip open
57:50
a pack on one of these apps. So I can write on
58:00
it. Yeah, and that's just scratching the surface.
58:03
I mean, but you see the graphics. You see the
58:05
dopamine. you know rush right that people might
58:09
get when they see something like that then they
58:11
see 70 cents and they're just like you know they're
58:14
heartbroken that they just spent however much
58:16
money to get back virtually nothing so the human
58:20
reaction the human response is usually to try
58:24
again so it's it's that near that near miss you
58:26
were smiling what were you thinking when you
58:28
saw that uh i just thought that's that's like
58:33
a that's a gambling site it's a gambling site
58:36
yeah it just looks like a casino Yeah, yeah.
58:39
Oh, no, it's ripping, but it's what, Jake, you
58:43
said, it's a slot machine on a phone. So in terms
58:46
of, and we're wrapping up now, but in terms of
58:49
what you do, Alyx, it's a fine, it's a dance
58:53
and helping people stay balanced and understanding
58:56
what healthy collecting is and how addictive
59:00
this thing is being presented as collecting with,
59:05
you know. Pixels on a phone. But it's not. It's
59:11
very different. Right. So this has been a great
59:14
conversation this morning. I hope that everybody
59:16
in the audience have enjoyed and got a lot out
59:19
of this. This has been specific to collecting
59:22
a gambling adjacent form of addiction here. And
59:27
thank you, Jake and Alyx, for being our guests.
59:30
And as always, Matt, I feel like you've become
59:35
part of the regular furniture here, which I love.
59:39
so everyone with that I want to wish you all
59:42
a very happy Sunday and uh there's more to come
59:45
next week uh with a slightly different topic
59:48
but still and Alyx please do feel free to come
59:52
back whenever you like yeah I appreciate that
59:54
thank you so much um and that brings us to the
59:57
end of this week's Sunday Project thank you audience
1:00:00
see you all again next week take care