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Multi Generational Disciple Making | Josh And Lashi Howard · Real Life Theology Podcast

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  Welcome back everyone to the Real Life Theology Podcast. Today we are featuring
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  another episode from the 2025 Driven by Disciplemaking Conference. This episode
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  features Josh and Lashi Howard and listeners are going to be challenged and
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  equipped to live as true disciples who make disciples across generations. Hope
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  you enjoy this episode. Good morning. It is so wonderful to be here. It truly is
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  an honor to stand before you today. I always say I shouldn't be the one
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  speaking especially when my dad and husband are also speaking but I'm
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  grateful and thankful to God and to Dr. Bobby Harrington for giving me this
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  opportunity. I would like to speak not just to your minds but to your hearts
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  today. When we talk about discipleship we need to understand that it is not a
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  suggestion from scripture but it is a command from Jesus himself. It is the
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  heartbeat of the gospel, it is the mission of the church, it is what Jesus
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  modeled, the Apostles lived, and it is what we're called to multiply in every
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  tribe, tongue, and nation across every generation. Let's begin with the words of
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  Jesus, go therefore and make disciples of all nations. He didn't say go and make
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  converts, he didn't say go and build crowds, he said go and make disciples. The
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  Great Commission is not just a great suggestion, it is the final marching
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  order of our Savior and let's clarify that disciple making or multi
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  generational disciple making is not a ministry within the church but it is the
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  ministry of the church because at the end of the day you can only reproduce
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  what you truly are. So first let's talk about what it means to be a disciple. It
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  is important to understand the meaning of being a true disciple of Jesus. A true
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  disciple does not just follow Christ's teachings, they live it. The world is
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  watching how we live out our faith. Are we living in a way that witnesses Christ
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  and draws people towards him or are we living in a way that drives people away
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  from Christ? You all have heard about Mahatma Gandhi, father of the nation, who
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  led India into independence. He was once asked by a Christian journalist, you
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  quote Jesus, you study his words, you admire his teachings, why don't you just
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  become a Christian? And Gandhi's answer is heartbreaking.
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  Gandhi told the journalist, I would become a Christian in a moment if I
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  could find one. I have never met a Christian who looked like Jesus. I like
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  your Christ but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so
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  unlike your Christ. The man who could have become one of Christianity's
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  greatest converts walked away not because he rejected Christ but because
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  he did not see Jesus in the Christians he met. How many Ghandis are walking away
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  today because of us? The truth is you are the gospel to someone. Right now someone
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  is reading your life to decide what they think about Jesus. Your co-worker, your
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  neighbor, and even your children. When they look at you do they see love or
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  judgment, grace or hypocrisy? The Jesus who welcomed outcasts or the Christian
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  who builds walls. It is time to stop talking about being discipleship and
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  just be a disciple because the world doesn't need more Christians who know
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  about Jesus. It needs more Christians who look like Jesus. Your life may be the
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  only Bible someone reads. What story is it telling? So before we go out and make
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  disciples we need to ask, are we truly living as disciples ourselves? Once we
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  examine our lives, our lifestyle, our habits, our priorities, and answer the
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  question, am I a true disciple of Jesus? Then we must look at our role model
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  Jesus to see on how he made disciples. When Jesus began his ministry he didn't
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  start with a big platform. He called 12 men to walk closely with him. He spent
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  three years pouring his life into them. He taught them the word. He taught them
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  how to pray. He let them watch him heal, serve, forgive, comfort, and love. He lived
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  with them, laughed with them, and wept with them. He sent them out and brought
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  them back and corrected them. And after three years of walking with the Son of
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  God those men turned the world upside down, not because of their gifting but
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  because of their obedience. Too often in ministry we want people to go out, serve,
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  lead, and produce fruit, but they have never truly been with Jesus. Discipleship
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  must begin with relationship. The deeper the roots, the stronger the fruit.
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  Churches are not changed by great sermons alone. They are transformed by
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  intentional discipleship. Let me ask you a few questions. Who are your 12? Who are
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  you intentionally walking with? Who are you pouring into, not from the pulpit but
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  from the table? Are you inviting young believers into your home? Are you praying
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  with someone regularly? As parents, are we teaching our children the ways of God,
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  not just at church but also at our dinner tables? Are we sharing the gospel
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  with our colleagues? In the words of Francis Chan, if we cannot name who we
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  are discipling, then are we truly leading like Jesus? My husband always
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  says, so often our conscience is tied to the man-made rules and laws. We feel
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  guilty or convicted for not attending church or not sending our kids to youth
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  group or not being a part in a part of a small group, which isn't a bad thing. But
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  do we ever feel the guilt or conviction for not obeying Jesus's final command? Do
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  we ever feel convicted for not sharing our faith with others or not sharing
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  Jesus with others? When you make disciples, churches are planted, leaders
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  are raised, nations are reached, and Jesus is glorified. If 12 disciples of Jesus
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  could turn the world upside down 2,000 years ago, can you imagine what all the
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  disciples sitting in this room right here can do today? I would like to share
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  with you a true story about one man discipling one man and what God did
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  with that across generations. Sarath Nayak was a high school kid living in
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  the Basna tribal area of India. His dad was the village chief leader of the
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  entire Gauda tribe of 600,000 people. Nobody in that tribe had ever heard the
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  name Jesus. Sarath was the only child who was supposed to take over his dad's role
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  in the future. His father had great hopes for him, and so he sent his son to the
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  city for education. Sarath got into some bad company and got into drugs. He not
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  only became a drug addict, but also started selling drugs. One day when he
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  was out with his friend on a motorcycle with 40 pounds of
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  marijuana, the police caught them and put them into prison. This news got to
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  Sarath's father. He came and got Sarath out of prison, but that same evening his
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  father called the entire village for a meeting, and in that meeting, because of
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  the shame, dishonor, and disgrace that Sarath had brought upon his family,
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  village, and the tribe, in front of the entire village, Sarath's dad disowned him
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  and said he is not worthy of being called his son. After this, Sarath had
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  nowhere to go. He was completely shattered. He went to the market, bought
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  poison, and had decided to end his life that night. As he was walking, he heard a
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  man talking and sharing about Jesus at the bus stand and handing out tracts to
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  people. Sarath shared with him about what had happened. The pastor knew of his dad
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  since he was the village chief and prayed for Sarath. The pastor also knew
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  my dad, Dr. Ajay Lal, and because Sarath did not have a place to go, he took
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  Sarath to my parents. My parents took Sarath into their own home and treated
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  him like their own son. My dad shared the gospel with him. He would tell him about
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  Jesus, his love, his grace, his mercy, and forgiveness, and after two months, Sarath
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  gave his life to Jesus and my dad baptized him. He then went to a Bible
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  college and got his degree in theology, and after completing his education, he
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  came back to my dad and shared with him about his heart to share with others
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  about what Jesus had done in his life. My dad encouraged him to go back to his
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  village, back to his parents. This was going to be one of the most difficult
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  things for him to do, but he decided to go back, back to the place where he was
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  disowned, humiliated, and had decided to end his life. But this time, he had Jesus
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  in his life. Sarath was a changed man, completely transformed. He went and
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  shared everything with his dad. He asked for his forgiveness. His dad saw this new
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  transformation in his son and told him that he wanted to meet the person who,
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  in his dad's words, had converted him from Satan into a saint.
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  Sarath requested my dad to come to his village to meet his dad. My dad went
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  with Sarath and stayed with Sarath's parents for a few days, met with
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  his parents, shared about Jesus, and before leaving the village, he baptized
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  both Sarath's mom and dad. They not only gave their lives to Jesus, but also
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  accepted Sarath back into their home. Praise God. This was not the end of the
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  story. As a result, Sarath's entire family started sharing Jesus with the village
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  people and the whole Gauda tribe. Sarath has planted 18 churches and about
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  hundred thousand people from the Gauda tribe accepted Christ. One act of
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  obedience created a multi-generational movement of faith. Sarath did not have an
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  easy life after he accepted Christ. He continuously faces persecution for his
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  faith. He has been beaten badly, his daughter was kidnapped and raped,
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  extremists came and destroyed his house, but despite it all, he chooses Christ. He
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  preaches even more boldly after every trial and continues to obey Jesus's
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  great command of going and making disciples. What you just heard isn't just
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  a story about one man. It is a living example of what happens when someone
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  chooses to obey Jesus's final command. My dad didn't just preach to Sarath, he
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  invited him in. He discipled him. He loved him. And look what God did with that
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  obedience. One life, once broken, rejected, ashamed, and at the edge of suicide, was
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  transformed by the gospel. That one transformed life didn't just stop there.
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  It reached a family, then a village, and began became the spark of a revival for
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  a tribe of 600,000 people. And it all started with one man saying, I will love
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  you, I will walk with you, and I will disciple you. This is the power of
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  discipleship. It's costly. Discipleship is what life on life. It's costly, it's
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  uncomfortable, it's messy, but it's how the kingdom of God multiplies. So I want
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  to ask you today, who is your Sarath? Who is the one person you can walk with and
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  rest in and love into the kingdom of God? When you disciple one, thousands are
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  touched and generations are reached and changed. In India today, and in many parts
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  of the world, there are men and women who are willing to lay down everything for
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  the sake of gospel and the kingdom of God. They are literally counting the cost
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  of discipleship with their blood, their tears, and their very lives. There are
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  pastors being beaten in front of their congregations. There are believers being
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  set on fire, dragged from their homes, falsely accused, imprisoned, and even
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  martyred, all because they have declared that Jesus Christ is Lord. They know that
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  following Christ means taking up their cross daily. They do not waver because
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  they have seen something more valuable than their comfort, their safety, and even
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  their breath. They have seen Christ. And they have concluded with the Apostle Paul
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  that to live is Christ and to die is gain. Now let's contrast that with where
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  many of us are right now. We sit in the comforts of our own homes and churches
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  where we can worship freely, we can share the gospel without any legal
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  implications, we can read our Bibles in public, pray in our schools and
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  livestream sermons, and even sing without fear. And yet the haunting
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  question still remains, do we truly understand the weight of being a
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  disciple of Jesus? In a land where it costs us almost nothing to live out our
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  faith, why are we so silent? Why are we so afraid to speak up? There are tribes,
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  tongues, and nations who have never heard the name Jesus. And yet we who have
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  been given so much, so much freedom, so much truth, so much access, often do so
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  little with it. Before I close, I want to leave you with this. I'm standing here
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  today because someone believed in disciple making. Someone obeyed the call
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  and command of Jesus in their life. I'm a fourth generation Christian. Both sets
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  of my great-grandparents were born into Hindu families. But because one
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  faithful person chose to obey, chose to disciple, chose to invest, today my family
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  knows the true Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. My parents know him, my children
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  know him, and I am a living result of multi-generational discipleship. Will you
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  be that one faithful person for someone else? Will you be the link in the chain
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  that connects a lost soul to Jesus and a future generation to the kingdom of God?
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  The call is clear, the command is given, and the time is now. It is time to go. Go
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  into our neighborhoods, go into our cities, go into the unreached places, go
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  into the world, no matter the cost, no matter the risk, no matter what it takes,
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  because Jesus is worth it and the gospel is worth it. So today, let's together step
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  into the calling Jesus gave us, not with fear, but with faith, not with excuses, but
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  with obedience. There is someone waiting on the other side, someone like Sareth,
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  someone forgotten, someone broken, but one day that someone could be the reason a
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  tribe is reached, a family is restored, and a generation is saved. You don't need
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  to be famous, you don't need to be perfect, you just need to be faithful.
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  Let's be disciples who make disciples across generations, because one life
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  surrendered to him can change the world. Christ is calling, the world is waiting,
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  and eternity is at stake. Are you willing? May God bless you. Thank you.
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  I'm so proud of you. Man, the kiss came across the mic, that was nice.
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  Awesome. Man, that was powerful. Let's give her another hand, okay. I know what many
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  of you are thinking, how did a guy like you get a girl like that? And it kind of
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  hurts my feelings that you were thinking that. But anyway, my wife and I, who you
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  just got the privilege to meet, have been around, we've been married now for almost
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  18 years, and we spent the last about 16 and a half years of our lives living in
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  India, serving alongside of Central India Christian Mission, who many of you know,
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  my in-laws, Dr. Zajan and Dulal, are here right now with my brother Abhijit, my
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  sister Sunaina, if you want to give them a quick wave over there, good to see you
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  guys. I'm sure you know them, they're kind of celebrities in the restoration
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  movement. So, but anyway, what you just got to hear was, I want you to know how
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  much time and energy that my wife put into thinking through every word that
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  she was going to share to you, and I want you to know how convicting it was
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  even to me, as I was sitting listening to her practice last night even, and the
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  challenge she was giving us to really be true disciples of Jesus, who were willing
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  to lay it all down for the kingdom, amen? Because if we're gonna be, and if we're
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  gonna do this whole multi-generational disciple-making thing, then it's got to
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  start with the idea, are we truly disciples worth reproducing anyway? And
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  that's what my wife really laid out right there, is that are we willing to
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  lay it all down? Are we willing to raise the bar of what it means to be a
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  disciple of Jesus, and then to pass that on to other people? Because the
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  main principle, guys, that my wife was really trying to get across here, is
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  that discipleship is costly. It is sacrificial. We must give up our time and
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  our energy and our treasure in order to pour out our lives for other people, and
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  most of the time, we're just not willing to do that. You know what I mean? Because
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  discipleship takes time. It takes us to set aside time, and actually tremendous
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  amounts of time. The best movement leaders across the world, the ones that
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  are seeing rapid multiplication, and I'm talking about millions of disciples made,
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  hundreds of thousands of churches multiplied, the movements that we read
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  about, that books are written about, what they will say is that their best leaders
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  spend anywhere between 60 and 90 days a year pouring in to their disciples, and
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  that's full days. We're talking literally two to three months of time and energy
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  and focus to actually see leaders raised up who have the DNA to multiply
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  disciples. And so, friends, that's a challenge for us. Are we going to be
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  willing to do that and to sacrifice that? Now, for my time, here's what I'd love to
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  do. I want to give you, because my wife did an incredible job at inspiring us,
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  giving us an incredible story to kind of hold our life up to, and I want to kind of
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  land the plane for us so that her and I kind of match up together on what are some
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  of the key principles that it's going to take to see multi-generational disciple
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  making happen. But before I do, let me define what I mean by that.
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  What I don't necessarily mean, although it can include, I don't mean a grandfather
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  pouring into his grandson and then the grandson pouring into his child,
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  although that's very important and we need that to happen, what I mean by
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  multi-generational disciple making is being a disciple who makes a disciple who
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  makes a disciple who makes a disciple. Does that make sense? Or a church that
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  plants a church that plants a church that plants a church, because the best movements
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  across the world are seeing fourth, fifth, sixth, even twelfth or fifteenth generations
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  of disciples in churches, and that's how we're seeing entire cities saturated with
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  the gospel. And so if we're going to see that happen in the West, then what are the
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  main principles that we need to devote our lives to in order to see that happen?
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  And what are the new scorecard pieces that we need to start tracking so that we know
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  if we're winning or not? Okay? You with me on that? No? Okay, that's cool.
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  It didn't matter if you answered yes or no to that because I was going to give it to
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  you anyway, okay? But it's good to know how tired you...okay, thank you, Bobby.
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  I appreciate that. So let's do this, okay? Let's start with scorecard, and then we're
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  going to move into principles of multigenerational disciple making.
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  When I was in India, I had been there for about three years. I was sitting with my team,
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  and we were dreaming about what it would look like to saturate India with the gospel.
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  And we learned very quickly that the traditional scorecard of just adding people who attend
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  church and adding believers to the numbers that we already had was never going to get the job
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  done in a place like India. At the time, we had 1.3 billion Indians that we needed to reach.
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  And even if we reached a crazy amount of people every year, let's say 100,000 people a year,
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  it would take us 13,000 years to reach India, okay? I want you to know how big India is.
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  If they lost a billion people, they'd still be bigger than America, okay? That's crazy, all right?
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  A billion people gone, still bigger than America, and it's a third of the land mass of the U.S.
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  So we're talking people everywhere, and the traditional scorecard of getting a great church
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  with great programs and great preaching and great praise and worship, as Bobby always says,
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  and calling them in to sit and listen was never in a million years going to actually see the
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  impact in India that we needed, so we had to shift our scorecard. We had to begin to change things
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  so that we could become disciples who make disciples who make disciples, and this is where
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  it started for us. We began to think, okay, what do we need to track and what do we need to start
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  focusing on so that we can see the impact that we need? So for example, here's a couple, but I want
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  you guys to be praying about what are some shifts you guys can make, but let me give you two or three
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  right now. Number one was this. Rather than just tracking the number of disciples we had or the
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  number of church attendees or the number of people in our groups or whatever, rather than tracking
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  disciples, we started tracking disciple makers. How many people within our movement and our groups
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  were actually making disciples? Because at the end of the day, that's the only number that's
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  actually going to get some multi-generational disciple making. If you have an attendee, although
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  that's great, they may be learning some great things. If they're not able to go make more disciples,
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  you'll never get generational growth, and so although an attendee is great, the goal should not
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  be attendants or disciples. It needs to be disciple makers, people who are actually doing the work.
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  Number two, and this goes right alongside of it, we love to track baptisms, especially in the
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  restoration movement. You with me? Okay, baptisms are great, and by the way, we still track those in
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  our movements, but what we started caring about even more was how many baptizers we have, not how
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  many baptisms. Because at the end of the day, if your leaders or pastors are the only one baptizing
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  people, you're never going to get some generational growth of disciple making. And so we wanted as
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  many people baptizing their friends and their family as possible so that we knew that the
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  reproduction DNA was in every single person. Does that make sense? And so we wanted to see, man, we
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  wanted to see brand new believers baptizing friends and family. We wanted to see those family baptizing
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  their co-workers. We wanted to see those co-workers baptizing their family. It's exactly what we see
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  in the gospels in the book of Acts. Think about this. Paul preaches to the Philippian jailer, right,
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  in the book of Acts. What happens? The Philippian jailer immediately goes and tells his family
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  what he just heard. And that night in the middle of the night, the whole family is baptized, and
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  then they start telling people about what Jesus did in their lives. That is the key of
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  multi-generational disciple making, is equipping and training every person the moment they come to faith
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  how to go do it again and again and again. We've got one of our movement leaders in India. One of
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  my favorite quotes that he has is this, the sharpest tool in God's toolbox is the testimony
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  of a new believer. The sharpest tool in God's toolbox is the testimony of a new believer. And
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  so often what we do in traditional ministry is we put them on like a five-year pathway
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  where they lose all their fire, they lose all their excitement, and we're like, hey, you're not ready
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  yet. Wait, you're not ready yet. You got to go through this. Take this eight-week class. Take this
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  six-week journey. Take this six-month study, and then you can do this work. But in all reality, the
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  moment they come to Christ, man, that is when they are most on fire, when they're most passionate,
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  and we need to equip and train them immediately on how to go talk to people about Jesus and become a
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  disciple maker and a baptizer themselves. Amen? And that's the principle, guys, and I'll connect
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  that to the scorecard. One of the principles of multi-generational disciple making that I love,
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  I got from my movement mentor, Curtis Sargent, it's called duckling discipleship. You ever heard
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  of this? Here's the big idea. Think of a mama duck and her little ducklings. If I was as prepared as
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  my wife, I would have had ducks up on the screen right now, but you can tell I'm not, okay? But
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  there's a mama duck and little ducklings, and they're all kind of in a single file line following
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  one another. Now, if you think about it, all the ducks are not following the mama duck. Only the
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  first couple are following the mama. Every other little duck is just following the duckling in
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  front of it. And so here's the principle. To be a disciple maker, you don't have to be the mama duck.
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  You just have to be one or two steps ahead of the duck behind you. That's it. So if you've learned
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  how to study the Bible, you can teach the duck behind you how to study the Bible. If you've
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  learned how to pray, you can teach the one behind you how to pray. If you've learned how to share
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  your testimony, you can teach the duck behind you how to share their testimony. Do you get what I'm
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  saying? Now, it doesn't mean that they're ready to maybe lead a large group of people. I'm not saying
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  that, but what they are ready to do is pour what they've learned into others so that they can pour
• 26:52
  into others because that's the way people learn and are discipled best when they are actually
• 26:58
  active in the ministry. So when they're doing the work, they're learning how to do it better than
• 27:05
  just sitting in a classroom learning about the mechanics of it, if that makes sense. So if you're
• 27:09
  going to teach somebody how to swim, you don't sit in a class showing them all the strokes without
• 27:14
  getting in the water. You got to get them in the water, teach them how to swim. The same is true
• 27:18
  with disciple making. And so we want baptizers, not just baptisms. We want disciple makers, not just
• 27:25
  disciples. Therefore, we want people learning immediately what it looks like to be a disciple
• 27:31
  who makes disciples, which is why in our movement in India, we created this kind of mantra or motto
• 27:37
  that we would say all the time, and this is it. We exist to train the saved and save the lost, and
• 27:45
  that's it. So we began to prune all other ministry that didn't have to do with either training the
• 27:52
  saved or saving the lost. And the moment somebody became saved, they were then put in a training
• 27:58
  pathway on how to be a disciple who makes disciples. So all of our work and effort was
• 28:03
  either going among lost, hurting, and broken people, loving them, serving them, and guiding them to
• 28:08
  Christ, or among Christian people that we could train and equip to be the disciples God has called
• 28:14
  them to be. Because here's the big principle, guys, behind multi-generational disciple making.
• 28:19
  We have to awaken and equip and release the priesthood of all believers. Everybody gets to
• 28:27
  play, and if everybody is not getting to play, if everybody's not on deck, if all hands are not on
• 28:33
  deck, then we will never see the generational impacts that God really desires so that we can
• 28:39
  saturate our cities with the gospel. Amen? Now, I've only got a couple minutes left. I'm going to
• 28:46
  share with you one more principle, but before I do, I want to challenge you with something at the end.
• 28:52
  And this is something we've done with churches all over America, and it really helps if you
• 28:56
  think this way. Here's what I want you to pretend just for a moment. What if your church in whatever
• 29:02
  town or city you live in, what if you pretended for a three-month period or a six-month period
• 29:09
  that you were the only church in your town or your city? There were no other Christians,
• 29:15
  there were no other churches, there were no other people preaching the gospel. You were it, and you
• 29:21
  were God's only plan to reach that city. How would it change how you pray? How would it change how you
• 29:27
  live? How would it change how you disciple? How would it change how you do outreach? How would
• 29:32
  it change how you love, how you serve? Name your adjective, your Christian adjective. How would it
• 29:38
  change how you do those things or verbs? Because here's the reality, friends. I think so often we
• 29:45
  get so comfortable with knowing that there's a lot of other people out there and somebody's going
• 29:50
  to do it. Like those homeless people in my city, somebody's probably already reaching them.
• 29:55
  The nursing home up there, there's probably already a church that's going and visiting those
• 29:59
  that don't ever have families to visit them. You know, the hospital where people are
• 30:04
  sick and hurting, there's probably already people there that are kind of visiting those that have no
• 30:08
  family. Or the broken and lost drug addicts in my city, there's probably already a ministry
• 30:14
  doing that. We just have these false Christian assumptions and we get comfortable because we
• 30:20
  just assume the work is happening. But if we're really going to see multi-generational disciple
• 30:25
  making, I just want to challenge you. What would it look like if you just pretended
• 30:31
  for a few months that you were God's only answer to your city? That you were the only answer to
• 30:39
  lostness? That you were the only answer to what God is wanting to do in your town or city? Amen?
• 30:47
  And so here's the principle I'm going to end with, guys. And it's what I want to
• 30:51
  leave you with because all of this is going to be foundational that every movement throughout the
• 30:57
  world, it's this, okay? It is creating a radical culture of prayer, fasting, and immediate obedience.
• 31:07
  That is movement. That is multi-generational disciple making. Prayer, fasting, and immediate
• 31:13
  obedience to whatever Jesus says and wherever he calls us to go. And so if we are getting to
• 31:19
  know the Father, pouring our heart out to him, being filled with his power and boldness, we are
• 31:24
  praying for spiritual breakthrough in our city, and then we are learning to hear his voice through
• 31:29
  his word and through his spirit, and we're immediately going out and impacting our city
• 31:34
  and then training others to do the same, we will see the multiplication that God is longing for,
• 31:40
  but it's going to take us stepping out and getting serious about what the Lord has called us to do.
• 31:44
  Amen? I'm going to invite Bobby and Lashi to come back up with me, and we'll
• 31:48
  have a little discussion here in just a minute.
• 31:51
  Let's give Josh a hand, everybody. Thank you, Josh. And thank you, Lashi. So I get the privilege of
• 32:00
  sitting here with Josh and Lashi, and I just want everybody to know,
• 32:07
  I personally consider it a great privilege to be in partnership with Josh and Lashi,
• 32:13
  as well as Ajay, who will be speaking to us after a little while. And it's because
• 32:21
  what they've experienced in India is very significant in terms of the fruitfulness,
• 32:27
  but also the persecution they have faced. So I asked Lashi if it would be okay for her to talk
• 32:33
  about that, because a year and a half ago, Josh and Lashi moved to the U.S., and at least temporarily,
• 32:41
  Ajay is also here in the U.S., and I think it's important for Christians to know what's happening
• 32:48
  to those who are Christians in India. Thank you so much for asking and for
• 32:52
  allowing us to share with you this morning. I feel like a lot of Americans are not aware
• 33:00
  of how persecution is really happening and how intense it is back in India. And recently,
• 33:08
  it's been growing and increasing by the day. I'm so thankful to God that my parents are here,
• 33:13
  my brother and my sister-in-law are sitting here. They nearly got killed. It's a miracle that
• 33:20
  they're even here and alive. We praise God and thank God for that. But the extremists have been
• 33:27
  after my father for a long time, and they nearly got to a point where they almost shot him. And so
• 33:33
  it's only God's miracle that he is alive and they're here today. As we're talking, I also
• 33:39
  would like to mention that my sister-in-law's father, Mr. Vijay, is in prison right now,
• 33:45
  as we speak. And he was falsely accused as well. And please be praying that God would allow him to
• 33:53
  be free as well. Several of our pastors that work with the mission and work alongside my parents
• 34:00
  are in prison. I think right now over 150 pastors are still being persecuted. And when I say
• 34:07
  persecuted, it's not just somebody attacking them legally or saying bad things to them. They're
• 34:14
  literally beaten badly. And recently, one of our pastors got stabbed in his back. Thankfully, he
• 34:22
  survived and he was in a critical condition in the ICU. Just a few weeks back, my dad was sharing
• 34:27
  with me how a group of four or five men came at one of our pastor's homes in the evening and knocked
• 34:34
  at his door and said they wanted him to pray over them. And he came out thinking that he was going
• 34:40
  to pray over them. And they grabbed him, kidnapped him, took him in the middle of the forest, beat him up,
• 34:46
  and then put him in prison. And so it's just increasing. And it's bad. It's getting worse.
• 34:55
  We need a lot of prayers. India needs a lot of prayers. Our family and ministry needs a lot of
• 34:59
  prayers. And so please, please do keep everybody in your prayers. Yeah, I'll add really quickly
• 35:06
  to that, too. Like last year, and I'm talking about last calendar year. So in 2024, our movement in
• 35:14
  India saw over 82,000 people come to Christ. We saw over 11,000 house churches started. But a lot
• 35:23
  of times, we only celebrate the fruit of that and not talk about the cost and the sacrifice
• 35:28
  that our leaders are making to see that type of impact. And so last year was the first year we
• 35:33
  tried to track the sacrifice as well. And so I just want you to hear this because it goes exactly
• 35:40
  with what Bobby is saying. So in the year 2024, we had 3,116 of our people that either lost their
• 35:47
  home, family, and or employment for the sake of the gospel in our movement. We had 1,298 of them
• 35:55
  that were beaten for the sake of the gospel. We had 460 of our people last year imprisoned
• 36:02
  for the sake of the gospel. And we had eight of our people martyred for their faith last year.
• 36:08
  And so these are the sacrifices of real disciple making and multiplication in difficult areas of
• 36:15
  the world. So a lot of times when we hear about fruit of DMMs and CPMs and movements and multiplication,
• 36:21
  we hear a lot about the numbers and how amazing that is, and we celebrate what God is doing.
• 36:26
  But sometimes we're not talking enough about the courage, boldness, and sacrifice that these
• 36:32
  leaders are making in order to see these things take place. So important. I actually don't even
• 36:39
  know how to pray. So Josh, I'm going to ask you to let's just stop right now and pray about it
• 36:44
  and pray for those especially that are leading the ministry that you all had to leave behind
• 36:52
  for the sake of your lives, Josh. Well, before I pray, I just want you to know what I'm going
• 36:56
  to pray. We've asked, my father-in-law has asked, our whole family has asked our leaders,
• 37:01
  how can we pray and how can we get people to pray? And you will be amazed we've never gotten
• 37:05
  an answer, pray for persecution to stop. It has always been for faithfulness. It's been for courage.
• 37:12
  It's been for boldness. It's for the gospel to spread faster in spite of the difficulty.
• 37:17
  We've never had people pray, please make the persecution stop. Tell America to pray that
• 37:21
  the persecution will stop. It's like that part of it is not even in their minds. They're praying for
• 37:26
  stronger backs to endure what they're going through. They're praying for faithfulness and
• 37:30
  courage. And so that's what I'm going to pray for just so you know why. It's because we've asked
• 37:35
  them and that's the answer they give us. And so if you wouldn't mind, I'll pray quickly right now.
• 37:40
  And if you would all please pray. I don't want to just hear about stuff you say you should pray
• 37:44
  about it when we can stop and pray right now. And also thank God for all the work that is
• 37:51
  going on because despite the persecution, God's work is continuing. And my dad always says where
• 37:57
  persecution is at the highest, God's power is also shown in the most powerful way.
• 38:01
  That's really good. And so despite it all, people are going through difficulties and challenges,
• 38:07
  but God's work is growing and we're thankful and grateful for that. Yeah, I'll pray.
• 38:16
  Jesus, with heavy hearts, we come before you because the truth is, Jesus, we
• 38:22
  don't understand honestly in the West a lot of what this means. And so we come to you and we
• 38:29
  just ask humbly and boldly that what we're talking about in India is just a fraction of what you see
• 38:37
  Father happening across the world. And so we lift up our brothers and sisters that are facing
• 38:43
  tremendous difficulty. And Holy Spirit, we ask you to give them faithfulness. We ask you to give
• 38:48
  them boldness. We ask you to give them courage. We ask that even the persecutors would come to
• 38:55
  know you, that Saul's would turn into Paul's, that your gospel would spread and nations would
• 39:00
  be saturated with the gospel. We ask that your vision, Father, the Habakkuk vision, like the
• 39:07
  waters cover the sea, so your glory would cover the earth. We ask that that would be fulfilled
• 39:11
  through these leaders. God, we ask for the Malachi vision from the rising of the sun to its setting,
• 39:16
  your name would be made great among the nations. We pray that that would be fulfilled through these
• 39:21
  leaders. God, we pray for court systems to have true justice, that the false allegations that are
• 39:28
  being made would be silenced and that you would bring justice. I know that every government,
• 39:32
  Father, is on your shoulders, so we lay them in your hands. I do pray right now with all the
• 39:37
  leaders here for Sunaina's dad, Vijay, that you would bless him, that you would bring him comfort
• 39:43
  and peace, and that you would deliver him out of prison as quickly as possible, Father. We lift our
• 39:47
  hearts up before you here in this place and ask that to be done. And so, Jesus, above all, we just
• 39:53
  ask for you to get glory, praise, and honor, and that your name would be made great through these
• 39:59
  circumstances, and that our leaders would have miraculous intervention into these situations,
• 40:05
  so that your name would be made high. Lord, we love you, we thank you, we worship you,
• 40:10
  and we just ask that you would bless, in a special way, all of our brothers and sisters
• 40:14
  across the world that are facing this difficulty right now. And we just ask it in Jesus' name,
• 40:20
  amen. Amen, amen. Well, we're going to give you a chance to talk about what
• 40:28
  Lashi said and what Josh has said, and I'm glad we were able to just pause because
• 40:34
  it…you guys look so composed and everything, and to know the tragedy that you've been through,
• 40:42
  I just…and to your whole family, I want to thank you for being here.
• 40:47
  Now, let's get to something super practical that you both talked about.
• 40:53
  Inside of disciple-making churches is a different operating system. The North American church is
• 41:01
  really built around, you know, bodies, books, buildings, preaching, praise, and worship,
• 41:09
  and it's this attractional thing, and that operating system has some good parts to it,
• 41:16
  but the more important part, especially as we move into the future, and especially if you want
• 41:22
  to lead a disciple-making church, is empowering, equipping—in your words, Josh—training the saved,
• 41:30
  so that everyday people become disciples who make disciples. And it just seems to me that
• 41:37
  that whole mindset is so crucial. So, Josh, having been here now in the U.S. for a year and a half,
• 41:45
  lots of conversations, lots of churches, if you were to say a couple of key things
• 41:51
  that can really be helpful today for those church leaders who are here saying,
• 41:55
  okay, I want my church to be about disciples who make disciples. What are a couple of key things
• 42:01
  to bear in mind as kind of rocks to hold on to? Yeah, that's super helpful, and there's a lot
• 42:07
  of directions, I think, Bobby, we could go with this. Bobby and I and our team is actually in the
• 42:12
  midst right now of doing a national study with the best disciple-making churches in the country.
• 42:17
  There are a lot of principles that we found through those. I think, though, that if I was
• 42:21
  going to give you two main rocks to hold on to, I think I want to use two biblical images that
• 42:28
  have been incredibly helpful to me. And I think you know where I'm going with this, Bobby. We've
• 42:32
  talked about this a lot. If you were going to go back to your church and try to inject some of this
• 42:36
  DNA into your church, I want to give you these two biblical images that you can go back home with
• 42:42
  and really begin to pray through and think about. And it's this. It's the Acts 2 upper room and the
• 42:47
  Acts 19 hall of tyrannous. And I'll explain very briefly what I mean by those.
• 42:53
  The upper room is where the disciples went and fasted and prayed in order to get the power from
• 42:57
  the spirit that drove them to the streets to preach the gospel. But first, they encountered and had
• 43:04
  intimacy with God and his Holy Spirit that really drove them out to make impact. And so the upper
• 43:11
  room is really the boiler room of a movement. It is where intimacy and prayer and fasting and
• 43:19
  crying out to the heart of God happens. And the truth is, in a lot of our churches, man,
• 43:25
  we have lost that radical prayer and fasting culture. And we'll pray before a message. We'll
• 43:30
  pray during a message. But we're not praying as much as a people for spiritual breakthrough.
• 43:38
  And Jesus has made it clear, all of biblical history has made it clear, that every movement
• 43:43
  throughout history started as a prayer movement. It started as a prayer and fasting movement.
• 43:47
  And so, man, if we're going to see multi-generational disciple making and cultures of disciple making,
• 43:53
  we have got to get that upper room lifestyle back into our churches. Even right now, my mother-in-law,
• 43:59
  she is such an incredible example to our family. Every single Monday, she fasts and prays all day,
• 44:05
  no matter where we're at and what we're doing. She has a huge prayer list. She's praying for
• 44:10
  breakthrough. She's praying for miracles. She's praying for lost people to come to know Him.
• 44:14
  And honestly, my mom, who was a closet alcoholic for literally 20-something years of my life,
• 44:21
  a year ago, was set free from that. And it's because my mother-in-law prayed for her every
• 44:25
  Monday for months and months, and it set her free. And so my point is, guys, we've got to get that
• 44:31
  culture back into our churches. Secondly, the Hall of Tyrannus. Many of us are unfamiliar with
• 44:37
  this, but it's in Acts 19. It's where Paul went to Ephesus. He preached in the synagogue, and then he
• 44:43
  got kicked out of the synagogue and rented the hall from a guy named Tyrannus. And it says that
• 44:48
  every day he was there training and equipping the disciples so that in a two-year period,
• 44:55
  all of Asia heard the word of the Lord. Isn't that amazing? People will debate about how many people,
• 45:01
  but it was somewhere between 2 million and 20 million people in Asia Minor who heard the gospel
• 45:07
  in a two-year period. I wish Paul had his training manual from the Hall of Tyrannus to give us. I
• 45:12
  don't know what he was training them on, but it worked. But the point is not what he trained them
• 45:16
  on. The point was the intentionality of having a place that they were radically training, equipping,
• 45:22
  and releasing disciples. So if you can create a pathway in your church that's radically training,
• 45:28
  equipping, and releasing people alongside of a culture of prayer and fasting, you are going to
• 45:34
  see radical disciple-making take place. And those are the two things, man, I would go back and pray
• 45:39
  as a team. How can we create an upper room and a Hall of Tyrannus at our church that is going to
• 45:44
  actually see multiplication of disciples? So that's really helpful. So the complement to prayer,
• 45:51
  and by the way, revival movements in local churches and in regions are always preceded
• 45:57
  by prayer. So I just want to encourage everybody with that. And then the second thing that is kind
• 46:04
  of a theme, Josh, with you, and that is train the saved. In other words, if it's the priesthood of
• 46:09
  all believers, we have to train, equip, coach, and help all believers to be disciples who make
• 46:16
  disciples. I want to say something practical for your church and also for our nation, if I can.
• 46:26
  One of the things that many of us are praying about right now is that God would bring a revival
• 46:31
  to the United States. And not too long ago, I interviewed Oz Guinness, who's an expert on
• 46:37
  revival movements. And what he told me, of course, is that revivals are preceded by prayer. By the
• 46:43
  way, just think of your local church. Many of us have local churches, and the thing that we need
• 46:49
  to do first and foremost is start praying for revival in our local church and get our key
• 46:54
  leaders to be praying for revival in our local church. Here's what Oz Guinness told me happens
• 47:00
  in a revival, which ties back in with the ministry of every believer. He said, in a revival, it's
• 47:06
  everybody, everywhere, and always talking about God. Everybody, everywhere, always. And so if we
• 47:17
  can pray for that. I believe Reagan is coming up. One of the things I want to encourage everybody
• 47:24
  is that we would really be praying. So take a minute to unpack, but also make sure you're
• 47:30
  spending half the time in this next session praying. So Reagan, thank you.
• 47:36
  You guys give it up for our speakers really quickly.
• 47:40
  What an absolutely incredible session. There was just so much wisdom shared, and what they're doing
• 47:47
  is so significant. And so I don't want it to be lost on any of us, the power in their ministry,
• 47:53
  and what it is that they're doing. As a product of multi-generational discipleship, like I got
• 47:57
  to share about earlier, everything that they said was so significant, and I deeply appreciated it.
• 48:03
  And Lashi's call at the end of her message, at her call to action, it was so clear and so compelling,
• 48:11
  and it moved me, and I pray that it also did the same thing for you. She said that you don't need
• 48:15
  to be famous. You don't need to be perfect. You just need to be faithful. And so what would it
• 48:21
  look like if we actually started living like we believe that was the truth? And so we're going
• 48:25
  to take a quick break. We're going to go into a time of discussion, and again, you're going to go
• 48:29
  through two questions, and then you're going to take time to pray over each other, because
• 48:33
  that's of utmost importance this week, and we want to make sure that that's a priority in our
• 48:36
  conversations. And then by the time we get back to our session, we are going to hear from one of the
• 48:42
  most incredible and dynamic preachers I've ever heard, Dr. Orpheus Hayward. So really quickly,
• 48:47
  the questions that we are going to talk about in this are, what stood out to you from this
• 48:52
  presentation, and how can we pray about applying it in our own lives? So go ahead and take some
• 48:58
  time to discuss these questions, and then pray over each other, and we're going to get right back into
• 49:02
  our next session.
• 49:05
  Thanks for listening to this episode on The Real Life Theology Podcast. If you haven't yet, check
• 49:11
  out Renew.org's app. We've got all of the 2026 Renew gathering breakouts and main sessions are
• 49:20
  free in the Renew app. You can view it and check it out at Renew.org.