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The Assassination of John Lennon · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Conspiracy This Show, the world's most trusted conspiracy
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: theory podcast, with your hosts Adam Todd Brown and Olivia Hidar.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy the Show. I'm your host,
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Adam Todd Brown joining me as co host this week. Ooh,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: my favorite co host of all no co hosts. But
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I do have a fascinating guest joining us this week,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: David Wheeland, author of Mind Games The Assassination of John Lennon. David,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: thank you for joining us.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Hey, Adam, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure right
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: off the bat.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: This is a fantastic book. I had never looked into
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: this theory at all. You spent a lot of time
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: on this three years, right.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: That's right, thank you first kind words. Yes, yes, well
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: four years now because the book came out, more stuff
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: still coming. I'd like to put it to bed, to
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: be honest with you, Adam, but more stuff is emerging
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: all the time, which is kind of what I thought
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: would happen. Memories are being jogged and people are reanalyzing,
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: and I missed stuff. You know, I'm not infallible. So yeah,
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: it's been very interesting. It's been an interesting journey.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Before we get into the book itself and the theory
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: about what happened to John Lennon. What were your feelings
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: about John Lennon before writing this book. Were you a
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: huge fan? Were you just kind of a fan.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: I'd say I became a huge fan in the nineties. Actually,
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: as I was only fourteen when he died in nineteen eighty.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: I was into the Jam and XTC and Bowie and Blondie.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: I wasn't into some old guy in the sixties, you
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: know who I vaguely heard about, but I didn't really
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: know who he was, to be honest with you. When
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: I was fourteen, wasn't interested. Just like, starting Over sounded
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: like a very dull fifties prestige song to me, so
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: I wasn't buying it. I think it was the anthology
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: in the nineties that kind of got me into them,
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: and boy did I enjoy that deep dive into the
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: White Album and all their fantastic stuff they did post Drugs.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I'm not really a big early boppied Beatles fan. You know,
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: it was all a bit basic, but once they kicked
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: on from Rubbersol, I mean, wow, it was all incredible stuff.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Their geniuses, for sure, but again the nineties when I
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: splurged on it, I just parked it eight and again
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: it was an old act and they were much more
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: interesting people in the nineties for me to explore. So no,
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: not a big fan, and I always, like most of
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: the world, just thought, well, that murders as simple as
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: it gets, you know, as an obsessed fan. He shot
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: him outside his home. He admitted he did it. There's
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: something a bit odd about a book case close, you know,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: And I never bothered to think about it.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's most of us, because it does
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: seem pretty cut and dry. He was standing right there
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: with a gun, as we've been told at least, so
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: obviously he did it. But more to it than that,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: we'll get there. What prompted you to look into John
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Lennon's death initially, because at first you were looking into
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: it as just that a murder, right, Yeah.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: I was. I'm a big I should say off the bat,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of the Oliverstone JFK film. Clicheler
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: was a bit of a red pill for me back
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: in the day in the early nineties. It really was.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: I was completely innocent up to that point about American
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: politics and how the CIA worked. I probably didn't know
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: what the CIA was before Wulliverstone Shield came out, so
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: that's always been an interest. And there's a really good
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: JFK podcast called Black Ops Radio, because I'm sure you know,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: perhaps you don't know, but yeah, it'sat it's a great
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: kind of Jeffk thing. It's been going on for many,
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: many years. And it was Lockdown Adam. I was just
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: out walking my dog in a field listening to Black
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: Ops Radio or cast in my ear and someone on
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: that podcast can't remember who mentioned the fact that the
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: Dorman is an alleged CIA assassin who was at the
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Bay of Pigs, and I just thought, wow, okay, Cia
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: Bear Pigs, Jeff Case is interesting. I didn't know this,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: this is true. That's a massive coincidence that needs looking into.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: And I literally just went harder. And this would have
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: been spring twenty twenty. I went home, obviously had a
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: lot of time in my hands.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Locked down.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Everything was parked, which I kind of liked, to be honest,
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: in the early days I didn't have. I thought, yeah,
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: I opened mind. Everything just felt relaxed for a short while,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: so it was a good time to look into something fresh.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: And the first thing I started to sort of discover
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Adam was there's no detail here. Where's the detail. This
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: is a really famous guy and one of the most
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: famous men who ever lived, and his murder doesn't have
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: any details, kind of like the guy shot him, he
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: fell down, and the story, But where did he choose
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: to him? And what happened after he shot to him?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: And where on his body was he shot? And I
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: started to dig a little bit deeper and deeper, and
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: I thought, something not right here. It just felt off.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: Something wasn't making sense. And I've been a researcher and TV.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I come from a TV background. I've done news research,
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: so I have a research background. So I kept going
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: and going and going, and it really opened up. When
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: I spoke to the doctors, I thought, they're the first
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: people I need to talk to. As with JFK. The
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: autopsy in the medical was all a big part of
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: the conspiracy. Was he shot in the front, was he
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: shot in the back? Blah blah blah. So I thought, Okay,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: I need to get this figured out. And I innocently
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: once I found the real doctor, because amazingly many doctors
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: are falsely claimed to be the doctor who treated John Lennon,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: which is incredible. But when I found the real doctor,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: I just expected him to say, yeah, he was shot
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: in the back case closed, but that's not what he said.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the RFK assassination
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: in that way, where all the witnesses say Sirhan, Sirhan
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: was standing in front shooting at RFK. Meanwhile the shot
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: that killed him was point blank behind his ear, And
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: at least in that case, it came out this. I
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: feel like this is the first time any type of
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: information along those lines about the John Lennon shooting has
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: even been made public.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: You're right, Adam, Yeah, you're right, and which is amazing.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: And I think the reason for that it's not down
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: to me. It's down to the fact that a doctor
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: called Dr Lynn for thirty years took the credit for
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: trying to save John Lenner's life, and he wasn't the
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: doctor that did that. He was in the room, he
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: was ahead of the r he came out and spoke
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: to the press, but he never saw John's wounds up close,
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: and he never tried to save John. So whenever he
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: went on a documentary for the next thirty years after
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty. He just basically kept it very loose and
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: very brief about wounds. If he never discussed wounds because
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: he couldn't because he wasn't quite sure. So in kinme,
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: the media and documentary filmmakers and journalists didn't bother to
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: delve any sort of you know, because Dr Minn wasn't
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: bringing up the wounds. They never decided to go there,
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: so it just kind of never came up. And I
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: remember talking to doctor hallerin the real doctor who kept
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: in the shadows for thirty years. Still not quite sure
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: why he did that. He doesn't like fame, he doesn't
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: like fuss. He's a bit old score. But I still
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: think I don't know how he could have let Lynn
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: take the credit for thirty years. But anyway, he got
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: tired of Lynn constantly taking the credit because the big
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: key thing that Lynn always used to say was that
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: he tried to pump John Lennon's heart with his own hands,
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: you know, they cut inside John's chest and did that.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: Hallan did that, and I think it was just one
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: documentary that Lynn was on, I don't know, the twenty
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: fifteen or something where he said it on CNN or something,
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: and Hallen told me snapped, I've had enough. I just
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: can't allow this guy to just keep on taking the
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: credit for this. So he went to the media, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: the media said, Wow, this is the real guy, and
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: they all discovered that was the truth. But when I
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: spoke to Halla and I said, so, just tell me again,
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Dr Haller, and where on John's back was he shot?
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Because that was still what I was thinking happened. And
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: remember this is what Mark Chapman thinks he's done and
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: has never wavered from that. March Atman's always soo. On
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: the night of the murder, I shot John in the
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: back with four bullets. If you rang up Marchapman tonight
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: in prison, he still thinks I think that he shot
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: John four times in the back. So he then said
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: to me, Dr Hallan, when he wasn't shot in the back,
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: he was shot in the front. And it was that
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: real kind of Royce Schneider Jaw's moment where everything just
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: came in sharp focus and I just I remember that
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: myrote really were and I just thought, oh, no, this
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: is bigger than I thought. This is massive. And I
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: didn't believe him at first, and I said, are you sure?
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: He said, well, of course, I'm sure I've tried to
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: save him. And he said there were four bullets in
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: his upper left chest in a tight professional grouping to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: quote him, and three bullets came straight out of John's back,
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: upper left back, in a direct line of fire, and
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: one bullet that was near his upper left chest arm
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: upper left shoulder arm stayed in. He said, so, three
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: went through, one stayed in, shot in the front. I said,
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: where do you think the shooter was? He said, well,
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: the shoot had to be one two feet away, very close.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: Because of the type grouping professional guy, he assumed march
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: Apton was a professional shooter. And when I said to
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: him that march Aptam was twenty feet behind John to
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: his left, he just said, no, that can't be. He
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: had to have walked up to him. But you must
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: be mistaken. I said no, because we've got a lot
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: of witnesses who saw Mark just before the shooting and
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: just after shooting. Mark himself says John was twenty feet
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: away and he shot him in the back. He said, no,
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: not the case, and then he asked me to I.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: Then I said, there's anyone else I can corroborate with,
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: and he said, yeah, talked to the two nurses Dean
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: Barbara who tried to help me that night. They're thankfully
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: still alive and they're very no nonsense, straightforward New York
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: nurses who were very experienced at the time, so they
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: knew what they were talking about. And they said, yeah,
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent, four in the upper left chest throughout
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: a upper left back. Guy must have been standing very
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: close and yeah, one hundred percent that's what happened.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: That is such a crucial detail because it, like you
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: say in the book, kind of speaks to Mark David
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Chapman not being physically able to have pulled this off,
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: especially the grouping of the bullets, like that's Marksman stuff.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had a revolver as well. I remember
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: so an revolver you have to it kicks and there's
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: a slight delay as it moves around the chamber, so
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: he had to re aim each time. So that kickin reanin.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: It was a very dark driveway still is actually, but
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty there was his very low orange lights glowing.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: Even if John turned, and we can pretty much prove
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: that he didn't turn. We'll get into a little while
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: because they did try to throw that in there very
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: early on, that he'd called out to John march Aptam,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: which he's never said he did, and I don't think
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: he did do. But even if he did, ter just
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: imagine the scenario. He's walking away towards a vestibule to
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: go inside his home through the driveway, someone a stranger
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: calls out behind him twenty feet were being asked to
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: believe that John would then turn around one hundred and
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: eighty degrees stare at this stranger straight on. And this stranger,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: who's not a professional marksman, though he was an armed
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: security guard so he had some gun training, we can't
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: say he wasn't familiar guns from twenty twenty five feet away,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: shoot John four times in his upper left chest, and
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: we're asked to believe that John stood there dead still
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: allowed Marchapman to do this as three of the bullets
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: went right through him, one of them actually severed his
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: subclavern archery completely, and three other many archeries around his
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: heart rules are blown away with the three other bullets,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: and he'd stays dead still. But here's where it gets
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: really problematic, Adam. We are then now asked to believe
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: that after this happened. John turns around another one hundred
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: and eighty degrees with these four holes in him, walks
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: up to a vestibule door, pulls open the vestib your door,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: walks into a vestable area, walks up six steps. He's
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: now in a lobby. He pulls open some mahogany doors
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: to get into that lobby. These are big doors. He
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: then turns left, goes through a swinging door. He's now
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: into a front concierge's office. He runs through, staggers through
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: this concant edge's front office into another office, a back office,
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: and collapses down place first. And he's still got time
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: to say to the concierge, I've been shot. I've been shot.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: So they want us to believe this happened. But here's
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: the problem of Adam, and here's a massive problem. If
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: you talk to all the doctors and nurses you treated John,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: and if you take the statements of the chief medical officer,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: who's a dubius man, but he did say this as well,
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: so they all agree on this one point. Death would
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: have happened almost instantly to John Lennon when those bullets
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: hit him, because there were very serious wounds, very serious injuries.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: So the official narrative's got a big problem because for
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: Mark to shoot John front or back, take your pick,
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: it has to happen in the driveway. But John's body
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: wasn't found in it t And this is something that
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: I think the world has completely got wrong, and I
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: got it wrong. I just imagine he was lying in
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: the driveway, but his body was found by all the
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: cots who found him far away from the driveway in
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: a back office space down which is another strange anomaly.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had never heard that part either. I always
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: assumed he just died right there where he was shot.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know how a person who would be skeptical
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: of this, I don't know how you could justify those
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: two things. You don't get shot four times in the
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: heart basically or very near it and travel the distance
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: he did. He's going through doors, and why what would
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: he be going to that back office for anyway?
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: Well, to be fair, when you get up the stairs,
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: you go into vessel upstairs through the big homy doors
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: were in the lobby. That was a way of getting
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: into John's apartments over to the right, and the conciergeuy
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: buzz him in. So John was going in an area
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: where we would expect him to go, or where let's
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: say a second shooter might expect him to go. It
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: always had a very sort of predictable journey. There was
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: a kind of front on to desk there on the lobby,
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: and that's where he picked up his letters and his
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: mail and parcels and stuff, and then he went off
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: into his apartments. Though to the right why he decided
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: to sort of run left and into the concierge's front
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: office and the running into a back office when if
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: he could say to the concierge, I've been shot. I've
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: been shot and traveled through two offices, perhaps he perhaps
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: should have said as he came into the lobby, can
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: he buzz me in? Jay Hastings, he was a concierge
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: into my apartments, am I being a safer plasure to go?
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Of course he didn't do any of this, but they
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: have to have us have him do with this because
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: they know, and I know. I spoke to all the
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: cops he saw it that night. I spoke to every
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: single cop that went into that back office. They all
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: said the same thing. Based down bleeding out back office,
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: so we know where he was. But How he got
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: from the driveway to there with those four big holes
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: in him is a very interesting question.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure is. Jay Hastings is an interesting figure
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: in this. I remember there's someone who said they carried
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: John Lennon's body out with the cops, and it seems
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: like they were lying about that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, let's go. We should I suppose, just for pickure.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Not too familiar the story, say the official narrative. John
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: and Yoko at a recording studio Monday, the eighth of
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: December nineteen eighty ten point fifty pm. They pull up
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: outside their home in a limo. Still not quite sure
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: who got out of the limo first, met Sam say
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Yoko sometimes said it was her, Sometimes Yoka said it
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: was John. We'll go with Yoko first. I think that's
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: pretty much what happened. Yoko's ahead of John, not quite
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: sure what she does. She doesn't go in. I don't
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: think she maybe goes into the back courtyard area. Let's
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: just part Yoko for now. We do know what John did.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: John walked in past Chapman into this driveway tunnel, walks
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: over to the right where these glass festival doors were,
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: which is to head into the lobby and into his apartments,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: And according to the official narrative, Mark Chapman is on
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: the left hand side of the driveway, on the sidewalk
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: side of it as John walks past him. This is
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: according to Mark Chapman as well. By the way, as
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: John approaches the ve scuel, Mark gets out of gun.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: It's got a five bullet revolver, he says. He shoots
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: John four times in the back on bullet missus. Then
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: it gets very weird with regards to the gun, because
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: sometimes Mark says he dropped the gun. Mark says the dorman,
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Jose Perdermo, shook it out of his hand. Now we
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: should say that the dormant was not a CIA Operativity
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: was not at the Bad Pigs. There was a very
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: serious dude called Jose Dedermo who wasn't the Bad Pigs,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: and he was a CIA assassin. And if he was
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: working the door the night John Lennon was as it
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: clearly would have been him. But it's a different Jose Perdermo.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: It's a very common name. The birth dates are different.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: This Jose at the started working there in sixty nine.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: John didn't live there for a few years after that.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: You know, How did you know to start working at
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: a place that he didn't even know Johnlenan was going
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: to come and live in. It's ridiculous. But this jose
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: is strange because then what he did was when this
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: gun allegedly was on the floor in front of Mark Chapman,
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: jose kicks it to the back of the driveway, okay
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: where the vestubl is, and then he walks up to
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: it and starts walking around it. Now, why didn't you
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: pick it up? Why did he decide to play soccer
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: with it? But why are you kicking a gun around, Josey?
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: You know, so this is odd. Then you've got another
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: character who comes into the scene, a kind of borter
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: basement crew guy called Joe Manning who says he heard
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: gunfire and he came up with two co workers and
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: they all say the same thing. When they came up,
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: they say that Pose the down with the dorm was
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: walking round a gun by the vestibule in an agitated
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: state and said to Joe Manny, take this gun, take
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: it downstairs, which amazingly Joe Manny did. Did what's going on, Jose,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Why whose gun is this? And who's that guy over
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: by the sidewalk now reading a book. Joe didn't do
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: any of this, which is what anyone I think normally
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: would do. But Joe and the two guys, they verify
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: this in there with the statements, picked the gun up.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: They all went down together again. Why do they all
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: go down with a gun? Very strange. They all go
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: down in the lift with the gun. They put it
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: away in a drawer, and they all come back up again.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: So that's the Joe Manny story up to that point. Now,
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: John allegedly, according to Jay Hastin's and Concierge's in the
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: front office, which is where he's supposed to be. Jay
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: Hastings said he heard gunfire after hearing the vestal door open,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: which is interesting. They said he heard various shots. Sometimes
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: he said three, sometimes he says four. He says. John
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: comes running in past him, staggering like a kind of
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: drunk man, says I've been shot. I've been shot, and
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: then runs into his back office and collapses, and Jay says,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: he runs into the back office. He said, John's on
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: his side, okay, which is interesting, so he's not faced
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: down at this point. He says he can see there's
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: a lot of blood on his chest. Never mentions holes
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: in his back. Everybody always talks about chess. Wings says
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: he realized at that point he couldn't save him. Sometimes
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: he said there were tapes there. Sometimes he doesn't save
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: his tapes there. Sometimes Peter said he took his glasses off.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Jay's told me he didn't take his glasses office just nonsense.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: And then Jay says he came out and rang cops
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: and rang an ambulance. And at that point he says,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Jose Berno came in and Joe Maney came in. And
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: that's Jay Hastings's story up to that point. So Joe
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: mannis get back to Joe Mannie. So Joe Manie has
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: got the gun down in the draw. He's come back
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: up again. Now he's come up a different way. He's
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: come up in the courtyard. He hasn't come up in
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: some driveways, come up in a slightly different way. And
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: he's walked into the lobby front office area, and he
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: sees some very interesting things, Adam. First thing he sees
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: that shouldn't be there is a big pool of blood,
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: a large pool of blood in the front office office
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: that Jay Hastings said that John allegedly ran through. So
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: how the hell did that blood get in the front office?
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: And he's very descriptive. He says it was in a
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: gully just behind the desk in the marble floor, which
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: Jay Hastings has said, Yes, there was a gully there,
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: and he said, Jay Hastings was covered in blood and
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: sometimes he used the phrase full of blood. His shirt
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: was full of blood. So I thought, okay, that's a
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: bit odd. I said, well, else did you see, Joe?
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: He said, well, I saw John and Yoko in the
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: back office with Joko craigling John in her arms. So
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: I thought, okay, if she's cradling John in her arms,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: how did he end up face down when the cops
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: got there. That's not what you do. That's not what
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: a loving wife does. But I'm no first aid medical expert,
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: but I know if someone shot, I'm not going to
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: leave him face down on the floor. You're going to
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: lean on their side or on the back, surely so
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: they can breathe. I mean, that's just basic, isn't it.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: We'll part that. So I said to Jay Hastings, I said, Jake,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: a couple of problems. How did that blood get in
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: the front office? So he said there was no blood
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: in the front office. Joe Manny's l like, okay, so
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: one of them not telling the truth there. That's slightly disturbing.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: I said, how did that blood get on shirt? Jay?
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: I said, He said, yeah, there was blood of my
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: shee doesn't deny that was blood in his shirt. I said,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: how did blood get on his shirt? He said, I've
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: got blood of my shirt through carrying John's body out
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: with cops. I said, okay, So I then spoke to
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Joe Manny about this. I said, how did you think
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Jay got blood on his shirt show? He said, well,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: Jay told me well, I think he said Jay in
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: third that John fell into his arms, and he assumed
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: that John fell into his arms in the front office,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: collapsed in the front office, and started bleeding out, hence
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: the blood in the front office. And Joe Manny assumed
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: that Yoko Ono and Jay Hastings moved John's body into
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: the back office because they felt it might be safer
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: away from the killer Mark Chatman, which makes some kind
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: of logic. Sure. When I spoke to Jay about this again,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: he said, no, we didn't move his body. John didn't
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: fall into my arms. There was no blood in the
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: front office Joe Manny's life. So okay, so this is
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: all very interesting. Let's get to the cops. So the
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: first two cops arrived, Spirou and Color, and officer Spirou
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: and Colored. Spirou deals with Chapman. Cullen goes in to
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: the back office, sees John Lang face down, comes back
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: out to Spiro and says, put handcuffs on that guy.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: There's a guy bleving out in here. Two other cops
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: turn up, officers from Burger and Culhen. They pull up.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: They go into the back office and they see John
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: Lang face down again. This is how they all describe him.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Fron Berger says he tried to take John's pulse and
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: he felt a very faint pulse. I don't believe what's
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: a faint pulse there, but he unconvincedly said he felt
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: faint pulse. And they decided that the best thing to
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: do was to lift him up and carry him out
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: into a police calm drive him to the hospital. So
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: there was no time to wait for an ambulance. So
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: sadly they sport the crime scene and I think John
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: was dead at that point. Anyway, it doesn't really matter,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: but it was difficult from an evidence point of view
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: to do that, but that's what they did. From Berger
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: said he took the legs. Palmer said he took the
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: head and shoulders and arms, and the two of them
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: carried John out. They both are Adam and that they
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: did it. Joe Manny said, Yep, two cops carried John out.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: Witnesses on the street who were beginning to now mingle
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: outside of the Dakota they all said, yep, it was
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: two cops carry John's body out. So we know two
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: cops did it. And even Mark Chapman, would you believe Adam,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: who was sitting in Spiro's car, handcuffed at the back seat,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: said he saw a cop carrying John's arm and head
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: out swear at him as he walked past carrying John,
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: passed him and put John into a car. I spoke
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: to Para about He said, yeah, that's exactly what I did.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: I swore at Mark Chapman as I walked past the
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: car carrying Jon's body out. So we know that from
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Berger and Palmer did this, right, it was those two only.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: But here's the problem. Jay Haysis says, no, they're lying.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: I carried John's body out, arm and shoulders, and that's
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: how my shirt got coven in blood, which is clearly
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: a lie. It's clearly not true. So now we've got
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: to ask ourselves, why are you making up a story, Jay,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: about why your shirt's covering blood and how did your
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: shirt get coven in blood? Because your story of John
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: running past you doesn't stack up from what the medical
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: people have told us, and it doesn't stack up with
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: that pool of blood that Joe Maney saw in the
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: front office, and it certainly doesn't stack to how you
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: got yourself covered in blood. So Jay Hastings has got
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: some stories that he still needs to reveal. With regards
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: to Yoko, Jay Hastings said that seconds, just one or
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: two seconds after John came running past him, Yoka came
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: running in screaming, get an ambulance, Get an ambulance, call
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: a doctor, which you would assume is logical. But there's
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: a problem with that. And the problem with that is
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: we've got a new witness that I've managed to locate,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: because I should say at this point I managed to
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: talk to the detective Ron Hoffman and get all his
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: notebooks and PaperWorks, so I've got all the witness statements
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: now and One of those witness statements in there that's
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: been concealed is by a woman called Nina Rosen. Nina
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Rosen is a dog walker who every night walked her
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: dog outside of Dakota, so she knew that patch very
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: very well. She was an old lady, walked a dog
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: there many many times over many years. And just after gunfire,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: she said she double backed and came on the scene
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: in the Dakota Driver, which is incredible because she's she's
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: like a fresh new witness to give us, you know,
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: exactly what was going on straight after gunfire, and she
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: says she said she saw a few interesting things. She
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: saw Mark and the dormant. She said she saw a
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: large gentleman in the dorman by the sidewalk, which is
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: what we would expect. We think they're both are. She
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: didn't see John, which again we kind of expect that
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: he's off on his magical mystery tour inside the building.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: She didn't see a gun, which is strange because you'd
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: think for Mark to drop the gun or for Horizon
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: to knock it out his hand and then kick it
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: to the back and then walk towards a gun that
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: would take a bit of time. But she saw no gun,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: so that's troubling. And she saw Yoko. Now, according to Jay,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: she shouldn't see Yoko because Yoko came running in straight
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: after John. But she saw Yoko in a far courtyard,
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: which is a kind of gated fountain area beyond the driveway,
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: which again you can access Lennond apartments in, so Yoko
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: going that way makes some kind of sense. But Yoko's
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: in the courtyard screaming. She shouldn't be there. Quite a
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: few Yoko statements. She's given five different statements on the
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: night of the murder and the day after. I've got
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: all the statements. They're all different. Sometimes she said she's ahead,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: sometimes John's ahead. Sometimes she runs it out to John.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Sometimes she doesn't run out John. Sometimes John says that
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: I'm shot. Sometimes he doesn't say I'm shot. So you
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: could say this is shock and PTSD makes total sense.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: She saw something horrific, so I'm going to give her.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: You know, we shouldn't be too harsh on her having
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: different statements. But at no point does she say around
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: to the courtyard I screened, which is now I'm pretty
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: sure what she did. So Joko's troubling. She's very troubling
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: in fact, that all of their statements Joemani's statement, Jay
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Hastings statement, Yoko knows many different statements. I'd like to
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: tell you what the dormant Jose Perdermo's statement is, Adam,
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: But strangely the NYPD and DA's office do not want
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: to release Jose Pedermo's with the statements. Now we know
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: he gave various statements, because we know from some people Tommy,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: that Joremani said he went to the station with Jose
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: in a police car and they gave a statement that night,
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: and Jeremani said that he gave lots of statements the
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: DIA's office in the days and weeks afterwards, which you'd expect.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: So we know Paduma did this, but for some reason,
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: the authorities do not want to release those statements. They've
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: released everyone else's statements, but not that one. That's which
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: is interesting, very very interesting, and I'm barely convinced that
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: the reason they've not done that is Padermo didn't see much.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: I think he probably walked back to his gold booth,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: his watchman's booth after John and yoga the limousine. I
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: think he heard gunfire. I think he came on the scene,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: and I think John was gone at that point, and
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: I think he just kind of panicked and felt guilty
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: that he didn't do his job as a security guard.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: But the official narrative wants us to believe that Jose Padermo,
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: the dormant, saw everything, and he's the crucial key witness
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: who if it went to trial, which of course it didn't,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: he's the guy that's going to give them all they
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: need to know. I think he's a suspicious guy, Jose,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: because he wasn't actually supposed to be working that night.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: He was a dormant, but a few weeks diding up
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: to about he was in the back office, working in
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: the concierges office because he had bad legs. But on
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: that particular night he said to Jay, I want to
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: go and work the door tonight because it's quite mild.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: It's quite a mild evening, and my legs are feeling better.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: So he made sure he was on the door when
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: Mark turned up, thinking he was doing something that we
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: now know Mike wasn't doing. So I think think just
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: these basic facts about the actual mechanics of the murder
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: and who was there and what they saw and how
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: all their statements conflict. I think just that alone is
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: enough to bring a new investigation into the whole thing.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: None of it stacks up. I speak to the nurses
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: and doctors about John's I don't want to be flippant,
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: but you know, he was a magical mystery tour and
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: they just go, no, no way, no way, no, that's ridiculous.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: He wasn't moving in the second those bullets in him.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: He's down, he's not going anywhere. There's no way that
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: guy was running anywhere. And they're kind of angry now
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: because people like Jay Hastings has now come out in
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: the press sam that John ran past him. They never
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: knew this. They always assumed that Mark Chaltang just walked
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: up to him at point bank range, straight in front
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: of him, shot him four times, dropped the gun John
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: dropped in the driveway. Cops found it in the driveway,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: carried him to the hospital. End of story. You know,
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: they think it's simple. When I tell them that Mark
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: was nowhere near John and he shot him, his thinks
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: he shot me in the back, and they're troubled. That's
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: the word troubled.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: I imagine this part of it is probably not that
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: tough of a cell. Once you get into the ballistics
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: and the weird witness statements, it's pretty clear something's going on.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: But then there's the Mark David Chapman part, where you're
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: having to sell a skeptical public on the idea of
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: brainwashing and mind being. Al talk about some of the
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: weird cast of characters that were surrounding Mark David Chapman
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: in the years leading up to this, like the psychedelic
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: pastor and the specially Pastor. That all is very weird
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was weird to me. Again, I wasn't
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: looking for any of this. I just thought Mark Chapman
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: was a guy who, to call a clicheo was in
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: his bedroom listening to Judas Prease records backwards. Yeah, it
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: was a bit of a bit of a loser. Snapped
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: got a bit obsessed about John then and then just
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: got it going and rushed out and shy him just
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: because he was angry at the world or he had
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: mummy or daddy issues. You know, I just want the
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: cliches that we've been felt about low nuts And I
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: was surprised to find he had quite a rich, interesting life,
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: as so many of these low nuts tend to have
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: and I look at Lee Harvey Oswald and his globetrotting.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Mark came from the South Georgia, middle class family, very straightforward.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Dad worked in the military, was always a military dad somehow.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Then then got into banking. Man was a nurse, pretty standard,
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: bog standard family, nothing big, no strangeness there. He wasn't
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: particularly close to his sister. It all changed for Mark
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: round about sort of fourteen fifteen when he got into
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: LSD and he got into drugs and I spoken to
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: the guy who got him into that he wants to
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: stay anonymous. The friendly did that, and they said, you know,
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: it was the standard stuff. They started to smoke a
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: little bit of weed and then they'd started to do a
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: little bit of this and a little bit of that,
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: and they ended up doing LSDE this. So they never
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: progressed a heroin. There's been obviously these things always expanding.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: You know, Mart was a heroin. You didn't do it,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I suppose, as I can find out. But LSD was
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: a big thing. And at fifteen he was identified by
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: local pastor called Charles McGowan, who started to keep an
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: eye on him. According to Charles and Charles's x US
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Army and his ex counterintelligence for Navy intelligence. So he's
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: not just a pastor. He's a heavyweight spook Charles mcgow
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: which is concerning. And it's a Southern Baptist spoke at that,
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: which is again quite concerning, because what are you are
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: you aspire a priest. I don't like this melding together
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: thing anyway, That's who he is, so whatever. So what
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: happened at fifteen was Mark met at school a guy
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: called Arthur bless It. I'm pretty sure that's the stage name,
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: who was the kind of preacher who was into He
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: called himself the Psychedelic Preacher, and he was all into
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: this kind of Jesus freak movement. He was trying to
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: convert people. I wouldn't say convert, I would say incorporate
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: drug taking youth into Jesus. I suspect he was quite
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: happy for them to continue taking drugs while they were
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: in his flock. And Mark one day he went to
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: one of his charismatic events at school and he touched
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Mark on the head and said Jesus and Mark fell by.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: And Mark's friend was laughing and joking about all this,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: but something happened that day to Mark, and he became
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: a convert to Christian and born again Christian, and he
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: became a Jesus freakently walked around with a big wooden
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: cross and brown smock top and it was he became
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: very dull of course his friends and he started to
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: preach to them, and all the drugs went to one side,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: and he just became very, very evangelical. And that's when
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Charles McGowan really got him into his flock and started
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: to really keep tabs on him. And that's when Charles
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: McGowan sent Mark off to see another interesting guy called
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: Fred Krause, who was a charismatic preacher slash hypnotist slash exorcist.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: Very interesting and an as yet unknown guy. Still all
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: this stuff about Fred Krauss I wants to find out about.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: But I know he was a hypnotist. I know he
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: was a preacher, and I know he was into charismatic
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: Christianity and he fused all these things together. And at
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: the time there was a movement, would you believe, Adam
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: of hypnotists and evangelical preachers who wanted to fuse the
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: two things together, which I think is deeply disturbing on
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: lots of different levels. So these are the kind of
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: people that Mark sessions with Fred Krauss, who was sent
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: to Viatarles McGowan's church, it was all about exorcisms. Speaking
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: in tongues, Mark said there were men sort of pressing
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: down in his chest, demanding demons to come out of him.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: He just said, it was just deeply, deeply disturbed. And
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: if you look into mind control on mkulture, one of
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: the first things they say, right from the beginning of
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: the literature on it, on the sort of fifties and
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: sixties onwards, the kind of pioneer a hypnotist say, one
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: of the best ways to get somebody as a candidate
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: for that is to crack their brain first, is to
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: actually give them such disturbing events. Their brain becomes a
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: much more easier vessel to actually imprint a new personality
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: onto it. And one of the reasons, one of the
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: things that was actually stated way back in the literature
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: was that religious mania was a great way to do this.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: And I'm pretty sure this was a very deliberate ploy
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: by the people that were surrounding Mark to get him
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: ready for his Manturian candidate programming, and as you know,
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: you've done program on h Kulture Adam, you know it
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: was a thing they were looking to create, Manturian candidate assassins.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I think Mark Schatton was a mancha and candidate at Patsy.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: I don't think they actually were going to rely on
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Mark to actually do the kill, but like Sarah and Syrian,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: he was there to take the can when the event
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: went down, so it was all very convenient. So the
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: next thing that Mark did after his kind of sessions
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: with Fred Krauss is he went to bea route with
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: ther YMCA, which is a bit odd and I think
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: if you look into the YMCA there are some very
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: clear evidence and documentation that they were funded indirectly by
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: the CIA. Of course, what a great thing to do.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: You know, you fund evangelical YMCA workers who go all
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: over the world doing God's work and they take notes
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: obviously for Langley and you know pass it back. You
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: could say that pastors do this as well across the world.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: It's a great cover, isn't it if you're a priest
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: or a religious Christian worker doing good work in a
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: foreign land. A bit like the Peace Corps again, same
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: kind of thing. You're out there on the surface doing
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: something that it's good for others, but you know, the
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: funding tells another story. So he comes back from Bay Route.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: We're not quite sure what you got to, but he said,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of violence out there. There was a war.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Charles wick Gowan again is overseeing all of this. He said,
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Mark came to his church and gave you a speech
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: about his adventures in Beirut. So Mark then starts to
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: work at Fort Chaffee with Vietnamese refugees. And this is
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: where a big myth comes in because Weld Vision was
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: also working at Fort Chaffee, and weld Vision is run
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: by John Hinckley's father, and John Kinkley's father was friends
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: with the Bush family, and I can see how people
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: get very excited about that link.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say the only thing because
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I must have missed if that's mentioned in the book,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I probably I feel like I missed it. But I
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: was going to say, the one thing that surprises me
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: about this is that George Bush never comes up. But
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: here we go there, well.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's there. I think he's there
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: in spirit, but he's say not there in evidence. Because
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: wel Vision actually weren't working with Mark Chavner Fort Chaffie.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Their job at Fort Chaffee which is to place Vietnamese
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: orphans into Christian homes. Okay, so Mark Shannon is the
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: YMCA guy, was just there to play with kids. Basically,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: he was a kid, kind of played coordinator. So he
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: had a very specific job there, which apparently he enjoyed
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: and excelled in, and well Visioned has another specific job
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: there which they did almost not on site. They kind
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: of well admin So when kids were done through the camp,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: they placed the Vietnamese kids into Christian homes. And it's
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: really well documented Fort Chatty. You know, it was a
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: government scam. Basically, the government made a lot of money
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: out of Fort chadv There's a lot of money and
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: refugees and it costs a fortune to run, and a
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: lot of people make a lot of money out of it,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: including the YMCA and World Vision. I'm assuming, but there's
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: no proof that it was a weld visioned plot to
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: get Mark Chapman into a program. You don't need Bush.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: There's plenty of other nefarious characters that we can choose from,
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: So I mean, I'm sure boys was across this to
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: some degree, because, as I'm sure we're going to discuss later,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: there are some deeply disturbing links to the people that
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: were around Mark Chapman and the Reagular Administration. Of course,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: George Bush was the vice president of the role of
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Reagular Administration, and he also was a CIA director of
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy seven, which neatly pulls me into the next
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: phase in Mark Chapman's life, which was nineteen seventy seven
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: at the age of twenty two. After being a bit
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: of a lose, he did a little bit at the YMCA,
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: he went to Theological College, didn't quite cut it there,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: had a few bad relationships, just a bit of a drift,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: a bit of a loser. He kind of officially moves
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: away from Charles McGowan's oversight and decides to go to Hawaii.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Now Mark believes that he went to Hawaii in seventy
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: seven to kill himself, and that's what he's always thought
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: was the reason why he went there. He possibly did,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: possibly didn't we know. He tried to do it with
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: a hose connected to his exhaust on his car. Apparently
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: a Japanese fisherman walked past and it all just sounds
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: a little bit too on the nose for me, this
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: suicide story, but we do know Mark thinks he did it,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: and we do. Mark ended up in a mental facility
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: in Hawaii called the Castle Memorial Hospital, which was run
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: by the Seven Day Adventists, again another Christian group surrounding
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: Mark and the Seven Day Adventists to have a history
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: of working with the military, offering up their followers for
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: chemical warfare experiments. They did this in the Korean War
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: because obviously they're consciential subjectives. They didn't want to fight,
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: but they said, they don't worry. You can just go
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: into this room and take these drugs and see if
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: you survive. And then he didn't. You know, you can
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: find a documentary on this. They literally some of them
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: died for the experiments that the American military did on them.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: So that's the Seven Day Adventists for you. So they
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: had a very unhealthy relationship with the American military. Chapman
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: walks into this hospital. On the surface, they treat him,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: and he does so well there for depression and various
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: other things. He does so well there that they decided
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: to keep him on his janitor as you do, you know,
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: of course, we love you, Mark, come and work with us.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: Someone could say, if you're being a bit uncharitable. They
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: want to keep an eye on him and keep the
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: work whatever they were doing with him ongoing, and by
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: having him there as a janitor they can carry on
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: the program. And we found out later that there was
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: a program. There was a doctor there called doctor Kasahani
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: who was running a brainwashing program there. And we know
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: that because another doctor that was working there actually whistleblowed
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: that this is what go Sahani was doing. He was
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: doing brainwashing programs at the exact time that Mark Chattan was.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: They are being treated for his mental problems. So we
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: obviously there's no paperwork cast wee Morey have lost all
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: their paperwork with Mark Chapman and all their accounting they
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: weon't release because of confidentiality. So what he really got
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: up to in there is kind of secondhand hearsay. I
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: believe Gasahani was running a brainwashing program there. What we
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: next know is this is what we do know for
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: certain is that in nineteen seventy eight, while Mark Chapman
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: is mopping the floor Adam in the castle with Morial
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Hospital in Hawaii, he decides he wants to travel the
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: world Janetor's wage. Okay, that's going to be tricky, but
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: that's what he wanted to do. And allegedly he got
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: money from two sources. He got it from the Credit
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: Union loan from the hospital or the Castle Mourroo hospital,
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: which is very kind of them to give him a
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: loan when you consider they had no way of knowing
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: if he'd ever pay it back or if he even
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: returned from his worldwide trips. And apparently his father, who
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: wasn't very close to allegedly gave him some money for
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: this worldwide trip. Now what's interesting about this trip is
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: he kind of went everywhere. He went to India, he
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: went to Japan, he went to Nepal. He went to
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: Iran you believe, yeah, yeah, pre revolutionary Iran, as you do.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: And at the time it was a very dangerous place.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: But Mark decides that's where he wants to go. After India,
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: he went to Europe. He went to Switzerland where he
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: cooked up with some old YMCA pals, and went to
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: the United Nations. Would you believe this is very interesting.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: He went from a meeting there where apparently he met
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: some dignitaries and then went to London, Paris, Dublin, Israel,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: you name it. This guy was. He was really moving around.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: Now what's interesting about this is I've done a bit
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: of digging. I've only recently found this out that the
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: first place that Mark went to was Japan, and the
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: first place he went to in Japan in the summer
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy eight was Mount Fuji. And interestingly, at
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: that exact time in July nineteen seventy eight, staying at
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: Mount Fuji, would you believe Adam was John Lennon, Yoko
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: Ono and Seawan Inner. So Mark Chapman just decides to
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: start his worldwide trip in Japan at Mount Fuji at
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: the exact time that the Lens are there. I'm sorry,
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: that's the coincidence. I'm just not going to buy what's
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: interesting is Adam He's never mentioned this. You'd think that
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: the Beatles obsessive Mark out would say, oh, it's amazing,
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: it's such a strange thing. I was in Malt Fuji,
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: and you know, it was a big thing at the
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: time when the Lens were in Japan. It was in
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: the media, and it was obviously would have been the
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: Japanese media for sure, but Mark just happens to be
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: there at the same time. There was another location, I
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: can't quite think of it now, a very affluent location
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: in Tokyo, forget the name, and then it begins with gee.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: But anyway, Lenin was there and Mark was there at
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: the same time, so he seems to be kind of
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: shadowing Lenin in Japan Tokyo in nineteen seventy eight. Now
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: you would think, well, if he was send there to
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: do something nefarious, why would he be sort of tracking
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: John Lennon's seventy eight John Lennon wasn't doing anything at
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: seventy eight, you know, his comeback was nineteen eighty, but
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: actually in nineteen seven shows you Believe had him. In
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: the spring of nineteen seventy eight, John and Yoko made
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: an announcement they were going to do a Broadway musical
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: called The Ballot of John and Yoko with new songs,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: and they're going to do a big comeback. So potentially
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: nefarious people that were controlling Mark in Hawaii you might
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: have thought, you know what if John's making the comeback
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: seventy eight, Mark's gone through twelve months of our programming
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: with Kasa. Now's the time of send him out to
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: Mount Fuji. But what's odd is Mark doesn't remember any
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: of this. Wow, he remembers the trip. There's lots of
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: photography of the trip of Mark standing there and all
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: these tasmahole and all these amazing places. We're not quite
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: sure who took the pictures. Maybe Mike was very trusting
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: and gave his camera away to strangers everywhere he went.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: But there's some cameo shots of Mark walking off into
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: the very instagram friendly today, Mark walking off into the
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: distance kind of Instagram shots. That's not a shot. You
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: don't give a guy a stranger of the camera and
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: go I'm just going to walk off into the distance
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: and wanting to take a picture of me. You just
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: don't do that, do you. So? You know, so someone
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: was with him on this trip, or someone was with
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: him for part of this trip. Now, this trip was
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: arranged for Mark by a woman called Gloria Chapman, who's
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: travel agents, and she was a couple of years older
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: than Mark, and Gloria became Mark's wife. Some unchattable people
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: may say Mark's handler to this day. You need to
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: if you want to get to Mark you've got to
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: go ass your Gloria. I approached Gloria in all innocence
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: a few years and said, look, I'm looking into your
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: husband's case. We need to talk. I've got some anomalies
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: you should know about. And she just came back and said,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I've spoke to Mark about your requests. No, in those
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: kind of words, which was basically saying to get it power. Yeah.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: You know, I didn't ask her to speak to Mark,
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: by the way, but I think she was basically saying
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: to me, I'm in control here, I'm not interested yea.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: So it was quite It was a very interesting reply
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: for a so called loving wife. You'd think a loving
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: wife would go but what the anomalies. Yeah, at the
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: very least because she's apparently waiting for Mark and still
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: holding the flame.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's an interesting character in all.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Of this, for sure. For sure.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: There's that phone call that yeah, she said she received
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: when this all happened, and it seems like there's no.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Way, well she gave the phone call. She actually made
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: it herself and recorded it. That's interesting about Gloria is
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: she really had nothing to do with Mark Chapman. I mean,
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: he was a bit of a dew we loser, and
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: you know, she was quite attractive. Gloria a bit old,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: a bit more worldly, apparently had a slightly I don't
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: think she used the word promiscus, but she heard a
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: slightly immoral. That was the word she used life when
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: she was a travel agent traveling in the world. Some
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: could say that that may have got into some compromising
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: positions where she might have been easily manipulate to do things.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: But anyway, Mark walks into a travel agency in Hawaii
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: to book his amazing, fabulous around the World trip, talks
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: to someone else, and Gloria says she saw him talk
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: to someone else, and she made sure that she got
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Mark's number and name and number, and she rang Mark
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: and she took over the job. So she pursued Mark,
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: and she pursued the gig to become his travel agent.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: And if you look at a postcard that Mark sant
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: Gloria from India talking about his upcoming trip to Iran,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: it's very lovey dovey, it's very intimate. It's like I
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: can't wait to see again, and we'll go for a
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: walk in that place that we'd like to go to.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: It seems like it's not someone who's just met a
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: travel agent a few times and is thankful that she
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: arranged this great trip. So that relationship was odd right
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: from the start. But when Mark came back from this
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: amazing trip, she's there waiting at the airport. He wasn't
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: apparently expecting her. She's got crutches, she broke her and foot.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: She was determined to be there at the carousel as
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: his luggage is coming round, and he said he got
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: his luggage off the carousel. We turned around, there's glory,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: and she just sort of flung herself on him. So
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Gloria made sure, Yeah, she made sure she was going
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: to get into Mark's life. And she did get into
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: Mark's life, and a year later they got married, and
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: she's been in Mark's life ever since. What's disturbing about
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: Gloria is is so many disturbing things about that. I
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: don't know where to begin, but let's just go with
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: the murder. So when Mark started to become compelled to
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: assassinate you on Lenin or murder John. Then in the
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: summer of nineteen eighty two, things happened when he got
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: into the capturing rhyme in the summer nights that he
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: was never obsessed about it. He was a child. There's
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: no evidence for that. It happened in summer in nineteen eighty,
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: and he also got obsessed about Lenin and the summer
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: of nineteen eighty, and those two things shoes together. Also,
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: we could say, in the summer nineteen eighty that's when
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: John Lennon got back into the studio, so he got
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: acting again, and Ronald Reagan was a shoe in to
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: become the president in November, which is what happened. So
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: all these things coalesced. Interestingly, in the summer of nineteen eighty.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: Mark went on an aborted mission and compulsion to shoot
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: John Lennon at the end of October nineteen eighty and
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: the first few days of November nineteen eighty. He didn't
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: go through with it. He flew back, and when he
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: flew back to Hawaii, he walks into Gloria. They both
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: admitted this. He put a gun down on the table,
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: and he put some bullets down on the table, and
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: he said, I've just gone to New York, so I
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: felt compelled to shoot Johnlenhan. But your love for me,
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: blah blah blah, I'm not going to do it, and
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: I managed to your love for me saved me or
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: something like that. Yeah, so Gloria knew he did this.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Four weeks later, three and a half weeks later, Gloria
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: Booksmark tickets to New York and drives him to the
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: airport so he can fly off to New York via Chicago.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: Some people say third in December, some people say sixth December.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: Take your pick. I don't think I'm not too bothered
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: about the so called stay over in Chicago. Mark's programming
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: happened way before Chicago, and Gloria must have known, or
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: she did though, that her husband just a few weeks
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: earlier had said that he went to New York show
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: over the guns shot John Onna. But yeah, she's still
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: happy to book in tickets and drums at the airport
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: for him to go back there again. So that alone
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: means that she's the very minimum and accomplice to some
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: degree to all this. It's just it just shouldn't be
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: like that. So then we get to the amazing thing.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: On the night of the murder, she calls Mark up
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: at the twentieth Precincts Police station where Mark's being held
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: round about hopos two. Now, the problem that is Mark's
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: name hadn't actually been released to the media at that point,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: but that's fine. She knew he went there to shoot
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: him a month earlier, so I'm pretty sure when it
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: came on the news she knew. She knew the market
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: done it, or allegedly done it. So she calls up
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: the twentieth preseint and gets put through and she's there
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: chatting to Mark and she's like, yeah, do you know
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: what you've done? Some very awkward conversation. You can tell
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: they want to say more, but they know they're being recorded.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: And we know they're being recorded is because Glora actually
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: said that she recorded all their conversations from their flat.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: She said they had a recording device recording a tleve conversation. Now,
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: why are you doing that, Gloria while they're loving what?
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: That's really weird. And it had to be anologu remember
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty so it's not a digital thing. She
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: had to say it all up press player and record,
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: and so she wanted a record of this. And we
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: know she did this because she went on Barbara Waters
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: ten years ago and she fled the tape. You can
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: see on my YouTube channel. She's actually there, said Hi,
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: it's the Gloria. I'm the wife of the murderer. I'm
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: the wife of march Adman and class beach to him.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: So she called in and after a Connor, the head
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: of the detective not headed Church was a lieutenant detective.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: After a Connor at the time said to a guy
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: called Fenton Bresire in the eighties, the minute that phone
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: call came in, he said, I knew it was a conspiracy.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: So I just thought, this is a conspiracy. How the
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: hell did she know he was staying here? It's just
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: impossible to know. And he said, Mark Chapman. The same
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Lieutenant O'Connor said, March happened to him appear programmed. He said,
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: he just, you know, he feel he looked like a
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: color of robot kind of guy. So Gloria at that
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: point made sure she stayed the loving wife outside the
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: march Atman prison experience, and she always played portrayed herself
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: as a kind of wife waiting in the wings for
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: Mark to eventually be released. But one thing gloriad ended
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: almost immediately after Mark was incastreted was she started to
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: kind of work with two journalists journy called Jim Gaines
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: Jone's called Jack Jones for the next twenty thirty years
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: and basically gave Jim and Jack all the info they
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: needed regarding kind of calendars with sort of weird writing
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: on and stories of Mark praying to the devil and
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: all this crazy stuff. You know, she couldn't give them
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: enough salacious, undocumented, unprovable stuff, but she was kind of
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: their cheerleading on their kind of attempts, these two journalists
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: to villify Mark and to make him out to be
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: some kind of crazy guy who was always obsessed with
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: John then, and when the proof of the actual evidence
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: of that is he was never obsessed with On then
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: John then, and wasn't a big part of his life.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: He wasn't obsessed with the Beatles, and his obsession slash
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: compulsion to shoot John only occurred in July nineteen eighty.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: I found it really interesting how The Catcher and the
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Rye and the role of that book has kind of
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: changed over the years. And I found it really interesting
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: that when they first interviewed Mark Chapman, his whole thing
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: was The Catcher in the Rye. That's why I did it.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: And it seemed like they were actively trying to talk
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: him out of that talking point and shift him more
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: toward No, it was John Lennon. You did it because
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: you were obsessed with Johnny.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: It's interesting I think that I put this in my book,
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: that first statement that he gave round about sort of
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: one am in the twentieth precincts to a couple of detectives,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: and Mark signed it. He didn't write it down. It
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: was written by the detective, but Mark did sign it.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: And I've got a copy of this document. And this happened,
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: let's say, two hours after he allegedly thought he shot
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: you on that. And what's interesting in it, Adam, is
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: it's a guy. It's not a guy. We've always been
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: totally shot on MSPY fans. So you think l like
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: Lee Harvey Oswad should have said, yeah, I killed him
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: and I'm glad I killed him and now I'm famous.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: But he didn't, did it? Lee Harvey as went on
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: passy So straight away blows there. That blows there, that story.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: And with Chatman, what you'd expected to say is if
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: he shot John end for fame, yeah I'm famous now
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: my name is Mark Chapman. Don't forget get the spelling right,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: CEAPM and that's not the guy, the guy that we
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: got at one AM in the twentieth pretheint is basically saying,
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: I don't really know what I've just done. I'm a
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: bit confused. I've got nothing against John Lennon, I've got
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: nothing against the Beatles. I kind of don't really remember aiming.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: I remember thinking it's a bit weird that my bullets
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: are working, and I kind of I don't I'm confused.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: And he's kind of like, he talks about a big
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: part of the small part, but he doesn't mention capturing
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: the right. But you're right. In the next few days
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: after that, the lawyers get in there and they start
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: to mention that market, and he's pastor. Charles McGowan of course,
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: flies straight in to get involved in the action, and
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: Mark starts to talk about capturing the right almost obsessively.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: So I did it because I want to promote this book.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: I thought I was holding call Field. It was almost
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: like from the night of the murder, probably twenty four
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: hours after that sort of operation. Capturing the Rye is
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: now and they're happy to do this. And we've got
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: sort of some evidence that some of these psychiatrist slash hypnotists.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: You've got into March Outman Cell. We're happy to talk
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: to Mark about Capturing the Rye and he's holding call
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: Field and it's a great books from Mark, and they
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: were kind of goading me along and they were quite
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: happy to go with this narrative. And this narrative stayed
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: in place in the next three months. But then what
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: happened in March nineteen eighty one was Adam is that
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: John Hinckley tried to shoot Ronald Reagan and in his
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: hotel room Hinckley had a copy of Catching the Rye.
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: And I'm pretty sure at this point the powers that
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: be that were controlling Mark thought, do you know what,
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: that's two famous assassinations next to this book. We need
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: to get Mark off Capturing the Rye. And from that
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: point onwards, Operation Demon came into operation, and basically a
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: load of that Fred Kraust type exorcists started to pile
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: into March Atman Cell and for the next few years
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: he went through some just abuse, mental abuse, where these
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: guys were convincing him that he was obsessed by demons
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: and they were exercising these demons from him, and it
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: was just abhorrent. What they did to it was like
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: gas light. And he didn't do it. Captured didn't make
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: you do it, Mark, Your obsession with John Lennon didn't
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: make you do it. Well, now, demons made you do it. Mark.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: And even to this very day, Mark thinks that demons
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: controlled him to kill John Lennar because I think they
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: needed a narrative that they will comftable him that might
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: will be comfortable with that they could have moved forward with.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: But I actually interested in Madam. I don't think Mark
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: Chapman was meant to live. I think march Atton was
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: shooting blanks, which is what I think Sara and Sarah
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: was doing. And I think Lisa Piece has got that
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: theory as well with Sara and Syren. And I think
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: the second shooter was in the vestibule. It was would
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: have been a contained area that they knew John was
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: coming into after hearing the bullets behind him, and a
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: rushed in there. I think that's where he was shot. Interestingly,
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: the lead detective has told me that's where he was killed.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: I said to Rod Hoffman, where was John shot? He said,
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: he was shot in the vestibule on the steale I've
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: got him on tape saying that, and he actually says
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: it outside the hospital on the night of the murder. Again,
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: you can go to my YouTube channel Assassination of Lennard,
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: and you can see Ron Hoffman in some news rushes
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: outside the hospital just after John's been called dead, and
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: he basically says he was shot inside the vestibule. So
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Mark Chapman can't shoot him inside the vesticule, he can't
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: do it. I think it went wrong because I don't
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: think the one thing I don't they wanted was a
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Mark Chapman going back to the twentieth precinct and saying,
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: I know quite a what I did. I'm a bit confused.
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: If he was dead, this game over. And I think
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: there's a two ways I think they wanted to do it.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: I think possibly the programming was to commit suicide after
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: he did whatever he thought he was doing. And there's
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: a display, a hotel display in his room that he
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: did on the morning of the murder, which looks which
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: Mark Chandmer's even admitted looks like a suicide note in
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: kind of item form. Its photos, and there's the Bible
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: and that there's a few mementos of his life, and
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: I think that was potentially what they were hoping would happen.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: Or I think they were hoping for Mark to run
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: and there'd be a Jack Ruby type character, a vigil
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: anti cop or a vigilanty member of the public who
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: would be ready to tackle Mark as he runs into
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Central Park or down seventy second Street and confront him
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: and shoots him and kill him. And we know this
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: interestingly because jose Pedermo went up to Mark and Mark
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: said this is he heard Hosea say this and said
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: get out here, just get out of here, just run,
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: which Mark didn't. So strange, so strange. And we know
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: he said more because Nina Rosen, good old Nina Rosen,
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: said something that she heard. She said she heard her
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: Dermo so to chat with the dorm and so to
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: the man, she said, you better get out of here
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: soon because the cops will be here. Now. That's not
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: just get out of it. I'm scared of you. That's
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: a warning. That's a warning that I think an accomplice
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: would give to another accomplice too. This is all going wrong.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: Get the hell out of it. But he didn't get out.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: They stood there and he said he didn't know what
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: to do. He got the book out, he said, the
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: words are all getting jumbled on. I think he malfunctioned,
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: and I don't. I think the last thing they wanted
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: him to do was to stand there and be arrested,
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: because once that happened, all hell broke loose, you know,
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: and the people that rushed to his side and the
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: people that tried to get into his cell in the days,
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: in the hours and days after the murder, I think,
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: really reveal themselves. I mean, really reveal themselves and reveal
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: the plot and reveal who was perhaps behind the plot.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask a weird question, what is your stance
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: on Darren Brown? And the reason I ask is because
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: it's the mind control, in the brainwashing that people always
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: have a problem with. In what I always mentioned is
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Darren Brown did this TV show where he basically went
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: through the steps that I think it was sir Han.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Sir Han was alleged to have gone through to see
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: if he could basically manipulate someone into shooting Stephen Fry
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: and it worked. And whenever I bring that up, people
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: are like, well that was fake too. It's like, ah,
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: was it? I don't know? But what is your stance
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: on that.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm still uncomfortable hypnotism. I don't know. Yah, uncomfortable,
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: I really am. And because I'd like to think, I
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: wouldn't be. It wouldn't happen to me. I wouldn't allow
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: to that to it. I think when you study it,
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: look into it, I'm sure you have as well. Certain
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: people are more successful than others. I think march Aton
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: was a classic carries some very people. Please, I want
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: to be kind of guy, and you know only some
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: people are kind of usable in that spectrum. Darren Brown, Yeah,
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: I mean I've not managed to speak to Darren.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: They do fake TV shows. Look at David Copperfield and
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: all the nonsense that he did. I don't believe that
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: he made an airplane to disappear, So we know they
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: fake stuff. But Stephen Froy was there. There was a
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: lot of people there who will sort of say yeah this,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can see it for goodness, say yeah,
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: the guy he comes up using blanks and tries to
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: shoot Stephen on stage. If they did set it all up,
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: it was done very well. It was done very convincingly.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: So I believe it is possible. I believe what they
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: were trying to do with MKA culture most of the
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: time was to give people two personalities. See every day
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: they were there, and then you kind of switch and
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: you go off and deliver your secret message, and then
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: once you switch back, you don't even remember you've done it.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: I think that was the key thing. They didn't want
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: people to be caught and interrogated and sort of reveal
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: who they were and where they came from. And by
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: having these split personalities, I think the kind of schizophrenics
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: were the classic people they were looking for who already
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: had that kind of split mind. Do I think it's possible, Yeah,
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: I do. Yeah, I do think brainwashing is possible, and
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: I do think, but well, we know it is possible.
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: I tell you how we know it's possible. We can
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: actually quote someone who was part of the program. It
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: was a guy called Milton Klein who in nineteen seventy
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: nine went on a ABC documentary called Mission Mind Control
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: with a lot of other ulture psychiatrists, and Milton Climb
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: was the chief consultant to the CIA on their Manturian
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: Candidate mkulture program, and in this documentary he says a
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: couple of times, yeah, I could program someone to kill.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: I could program someone to murder. Now we don't know
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: whether it was lying or not, but he's in there
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: very convincingly saying, of course, yeah, we could do it
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: in a time of war. This is something that we
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: know we should be thinking about. So Milton went on
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: camera saying this, And this is where things get very interesting.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: And I know we're taught to believe that coincidences can happen,
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: and you've got this Ockham's Raiser stuff and all these
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: very simplistic ways of wrapping up strange coincidences. But this one,
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: I think is the strangest I've ever come across. Is
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: after Mark Chapman's first lawyer got some death threats, is
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: public lawyer, he gets moved out of the way after
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: two days, and the third day a private lawyer comes
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: in called Jonathan Marx, way underqualified for the job, living
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: it up in a big office in Rockefeller Plaza, which
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: again is kind of how do you get the money
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: for that, you're a young, up and coming lawyer, But
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: that's where he was, and Marks has an assistant, David Suggs,
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: who comes from another company in Rockefeller Plaza called Donovan
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: Newton Irvin in leisure Donovan Newton Irvan in Leisure was
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: set up by wile Bill Dollovan, the founder of the CIA.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: I'm sure this is just a coincidence. And that law
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: firm that while Bill set up was a wash with spooks,
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: which has been well documented. Even William Colby, the ex
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: head of the CIA, used to work there, so we
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: know this was a CIA law firm. David Suggs when
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying David Suggs and the pharies who worked
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: to SA but he did go to work. Joglan Marx
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Jonathan Marx, after three days does an announcement in the
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: New York Post Mark Chapman to be hypnotized. He decides
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: to actually go right out there and tell the world
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: I'm going to hypnotize Mark Chapman. And I think he
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: did that because there's a piece of footage you can
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: see in a recent Apple documentary where he's talking about
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: the psychiatrist that he's going to send in and someone
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: says to him, isn't that psychiatrist a hypnotist, Jonathan, and
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: he says, yeah, yeah, he's a hypnotist as well. That's
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: part of his skill set. And then Kylo, you can
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: see these journeys are sort of thinking, why he's setting
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: a hypnotis into Mark Chapman cell. So anyway, I think
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: that's where the New York Post admission came from. That
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: hypnotist last psychiatrist was Milton Clumb. He sends Milton Climb
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: into Mark Chapman cell to shut the door and have
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: him all to himself. Jonathan Marx does that now why
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: you're doing Is that just a coincidence or is that
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: something else? Because I of all the psychiatrists who must
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: have been working in America in nineteen eighty, is Milton
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: Climb the Manchurian candidate consult for the CIA? Is he
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: the only guy you could find? Yeah? Yeah.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of coincidences in this that people have
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: to accept as coincidence for the public version of events
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: to work. And it's I've talked about it a lot
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: on this podcast. It's really frustrating how when you're talking
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: true crime, people will tell you forever there's no such
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: thing as coincidences, But then when you get into stuff
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: like this, everything's a coincidence, and it's like pick Alane,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: there's either no coincidences or maybe there's sometimes coincidences and
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: sometimes they're not a coincidence, but people approached this kind
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: of thing as such a like black and white, cut
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: and dry thing, where like even with MK ultra. It's
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: really frustrating anytime I've brought that up with people who
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: are skeptical. For one thing, we know it happened, like
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: there's government documents, we know the scope of it, we
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: know how big it all was. But the pushback I
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: always get from people is, well, yeah, but nothing came
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: of it. They didn't accomplish anything. And it's like, are
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: you sure, because the entire progressive wing of American politics
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: got assassinated in the sixties and it all happened in
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: really weird MK ultra fashion, and this seems like a
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: part of that. It seems like they did accomplish their
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: aims and a lot of people got murdered over it.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we know. He got found out in the mid
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: seventies off the War Gate at various hearings. It all
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: came out, and obviously they tried to hide it. Richard
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: Helms tried to shred all the documentation. I'm sure you know, Adam,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: and he came through because some accounting files were overlooked
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: and were found in boxes and we would have known
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: it would have been covered up forever. Who knows what
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: else they've covered up and shreaded. So thank goodness those
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: account files were found. And all right, let's say the CIA,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: the people, as I know you brought this up on
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: some one of your other shows, that people look like
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: havys have a heart attack. Gun. Yeah, those guys. Let's
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: just say they decided to be nice and not do
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: MP culture anymore in the mid seventies. That doesn't mean
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: Navy intelligence didn't stop it, because we know Navy intelligence
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: did it because the Commander new rat in I think Sweden,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: back in the seventies admitted to a Sunday Times journalist
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: that Navy intelligence had mansurin candidate assassins via an MK
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: culture program all over the world. And the Sunday Times
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: journalists printed that admission, and of course the next day
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: after that, Maybe came out and said, O, I know
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: he was just talking hypathetically. He wasn't talking nypathetically. He
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: was talking very clearly. We have this. We have these
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: guys all over the world and they're ready to go.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: Jason Bourne, I think was based on fact. At the
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: end of the day, you know, rober Ludluch's an interesting guy.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: He should maybe one day try and look into him
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: and the origins of that Jason Bourne story and who
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: was inspired by I'm working on arcical and that's I'll
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: be hoping to publish soon. But yeah, there's a lot
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: more to come with regards to MK Ultra And look
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: what you know Tom and Neil did with Chaos and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Dr Jolian West hanging out in height Sasbury clinic at
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: the same time that Charlie Manson his followers are in there.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: Now Again, it's one of these coincidences that whe of
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: the leading just like me on Climb while the leading
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: guys in MK Alture just happens to be in the
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: same clinic that Charlie Manson his followers are in the
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: same Charlie Manson, who people said had a hypnotic power
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: of his followers. Is that a coincidence?
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm never willing to accept the CIA being on
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: the scene as a coincidence. That's never a coincidence. I'm
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: not willing to accept that the kids of the CIA
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: being on the scene anywhere as a coincidence. The CIA
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: loves a family band, know that it's and they're on
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: the scene in all of these murders, all of these assassinations,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: there's someone even the Bob Marley attempted assassination. The cameraman
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: documenting that was CIA, And we're supposed to just take
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: that as, oh, what a wacky coincidence that American intelligence
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: was on the scene when one of the most influential
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: musicians of all time was trying to make peace. That's
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: not yea coincidence. Come on. One of the things we
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: haven't touched on yet that I want to talk about
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: is there's a very famous picture of Mark David Chapman
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: getting an autograph from John Lennon, and there's some weirdness
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: behind the photographer took that picture.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: It seems like, right, yeah, part of the I could
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: put this part of the sort of official narrative hangout
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: that they like to dangle like some kind of weird
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: always in this a bit odd.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: Was this a lovely, cuddling, obsessive photographer? And when you
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: got cuddly and obsessive together, it kind of doesn't sit
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: well with me and Paul Garesh's kind of sold to us. Now,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: this is the photographer and took that famous picture as
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: a kind of Lenin super fan who befriended his idol,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: and John and him were the best of buddies, and
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: they went off together to have coffee together, and Paul
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: Greesh lived his dream. He's obsessed with the Beatles, and
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: John initially was a little bit annoyed with him, but
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: then they became the best of buddy. This all complete, bs.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: He was a stalker. He was a John Lennis stalker.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: And he was a Beatles collector of kind of probably
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: a magnitude never seen since. He apparently had a flat
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: that was just water ceiling full of boxes of Beatles
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: memorabilia and images and pictures and photos and stuff which
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: is now got missing by the way. Interestingly, and Gores
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: spent his life doing what people said Chapman did standing
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: outside of Dakota, stalking Leonard then taking pictures off, and
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: much of Lenin's annoyance, and the point where Lennon would
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: go up to him and grab him and almost strangle
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: him with his camera strap. This is all. This all
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: been seen and documented. So Garesh wasn't the guy who
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: had told he was. He tried to get into Lenon's
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: flat by saying he was a tenor repair man, famously
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: he didn't get into Lenin's flats. These documentaries had said
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: he got that fire, he didn't get past the hallway.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: But he kept trying. He kept trying. He was prepared
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: to deceive people to get what he wanted. He used
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: to be outside the flat, outside the Dakota in a van, sleeping.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: Sometimes in the van, some could say unfairly, perhaps he
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: was kind of surveying the Dakota. If anybody knew John
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: and the Oko's movements, boy, it would have been Paul Garesh.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: And Paul Garesh on the day of the murder was
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: in his usual place, stalking the Lenin's outside with his camera,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: no doubt, trying to get some good photos that he
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: could sell on a memorabilia market, which he was so
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: famous in. And he just happened to have a copy
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: of Double Fantasy with him and he gave this in
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: this this spare copy as evidence too. And I've got
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: his evidence vout it that he gave it into to
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: the cops that the day after the murder. But what's
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: interesting about Paul Garesh is he has kind of inferred
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: that Chapman was this kind of guy who pushed his
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: way in to Lennin to get this autograph. But the
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: actual truth of it is kind of Chatman gave it
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: away in a ninety two interview, and I've spoken to
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: other people who've verified this is that it was Garesh
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: who said to Mark, come over, this is your chance
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: to get the autograph. Mark, come and stand here. And
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: Garesh just happened to be with a spare copy in
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: his hand, just in case Mark didn't have a copy.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: But Mark went off to buy a copy of that day. Interestingly,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: just to quickly backtrack on that, he went to lunch
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: Mark that day with two Beatles super fans called Jerry
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: and Jude, and I've got their testimony now, and they
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: both say two really interesting things. First thing they say
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: is he knew nothing about the Beatles, He knew nothing
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: about John them, so he was not a fan. And
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: they also say he didn't even know that there was
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: a new album out, So they said, why don't you
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: go and buy a new album Mark and get it signed.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: Wouldn't that be cool? And he said, yeah, a great idea,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: So he went off and bought the album. That's where
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: Mark got his album from. But Garesh wanted to have
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: a spare copy just to make sure that if Mark
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: didn't have his own album, the rest could give the money.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: Isn't that a little bit odd, little bit strange? So
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: he calls Mark over and as John comes out, he
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: gets Mark framed. He gets the picture of his lifetime bang,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: a picture that has made him a lot of money,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: more than any Beatles MEMORABILEI guy I could ever dream of.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: He got this picture. What's interesting. Then after that he
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: then goes off. He's not there for the event that night.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: He goes home allegedly, but when he apparently sees Mark
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: under a coat, he says he recognizes Mark's clothing. Now,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: it's very hard to recognize Mark's clothing because it's all
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: kind of like very grainy eighties video footage. And actually
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: some cops have now come out and said, that wasn't
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: Mark under that coat. It was a dummy guy for
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: the press again. But Gresha's I recognized the guy under
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: the coat as the guy that I took a picture
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: of earlier in the day. And I put two and
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: two together, and I ran the cops up and said,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: I think I've put your man on camera. How could
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: he know that? How could he know that he was
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: taking apparently lots of snaps that day, but he knew
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: he knew it was Mark, he knew he had a
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: picture of him. Interestingly, the cops weren't interested at her,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: so like, no, leave us alone, but one cop allegedly
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: got involved, rang up Paul and said I'll be your eight.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: He's almost acted like his agent, and the cop got
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: in touch with the papers and said, we're negotiate a
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: deal for you in this It was like, oh, this
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: is not meant to be. This is It was almost
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: like someone kind of got scared that this image was
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: out there and then perhaps losing control of the native.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: And I think when they realized that the actual image
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: might help to bolster keeping Mark Chapman where they want
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: to have him as this kind of cool, calculated lenin
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: obsessive killer who actually got his autograph, he was obsessed
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: with him, I think they realized, yeah, let's just run
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: with us, let's get this in the papers. And of
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: course it did get in the papers. It made Paul
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: Gresh a lot of money. And Paul Garesh weirdly, really weirdly,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: was approached by Yoko Ono in January, and she asked
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: to use one of his images of John and her
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: walking out of the Dakota Driveway to go on a
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: posthumous John Lennen single called watching the Wheels and so
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: he made more money that way. And when he died,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know about ten years later, maybe fifteen years
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: later now actually know that he went maybe twenty twenty
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: five years later, sometime in the two thousands he died.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: Yoko apparently sent a message of condonance to Paul. That's weird, yeah,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 3: Paul gesh Again, it's just a classic example of how
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: people are sold a BS narrative about a person that's
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: involved in the case. He wasn't John's French. He was
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: Fred Seaman, who worked with John spank to fread many times.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: He said they were really scared of him. He was
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: a serious security threat because he was always following them.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: He was always stalking them. John. John called him some
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: horribly obscene names. John did not like this guy, but
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: he kind of I can imagine John just went that,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: I'll just humor him now and again give him the
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: odd smile. He gave him a famous photo and there's
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: one of poorn John together. Was apparently happened a few
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: days before the murder. Paul Gresh is a man of
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: great interest to me because if someone was going to
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: be there stalking the place, keeping an eye on Mark
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: Schapman and what he's doing, keeping an eye on Lenin's
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: comings and goings, Paul Gress sort of fitted that bill
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: just perfectly. And there was whispers from people inside of
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: the character that he might have been an FBI guy.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: And we know he wanted to be a policeman. Apparently
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: that was one of his ambitions. He was a repairman, apparently,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: and those guys don't imagine a repair man in late
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: seventies New York. You have to be pretty handy, You
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: got to know, you know, you've got to be pretty useful.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: And that's Whuperugress was. So he's not this cuddly Lenin
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: fan slash friend. He was a very strange, affaious guy.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Yoko Ono and the FBI both the bodyguard
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: situation around John Lennon is very very strange. Can you
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit before you do? I
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: will say that's the part that I find the most
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: weird about Yoko Ono in all of this, because her
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: giving conflicting statements and things. I'm always hesitant to base
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: a theory on how someone acts in the moments after
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: the most traumatic event of their life. So sure, I
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: could reconcile the conflicting statements, but hiring an FBI agent
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: for your bodyguard when the FBI was so actively harassing
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: and tracking John Lennon seems very strange to me. And
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: then to kind of make him the person who decided
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: when John Lennon was cremated and who got to see.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: The body, What the hell?
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: That is very odd?
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, he kind of came into the
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: picture a year before the murder, hired by Yoka to
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: be a bodyguard. There was a recent documentary where it
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: was inferred that he was a bodyguard to Sean. I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: think he was. That's not true. He was hired to
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: be the bodyguard to the Lenins and Sean. I'm sure
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: he was keeping an eye on Sean as well as
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: John and Yoko, but it was mainly John and Yoko
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: who was a threat. The thing about Doug McDougal is
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: he was x FBI. He was a only a very
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: serious counter intelligence a Soviet expert in New York, and
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: I've heard from an unverified source that he was part
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: of a kind of FBI Black Ops Team, assassination team.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: I can't verify that, so I really wanted I want
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: people to take that on a pinch of salt. But
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 3: I think he was a very serious individual. There's no
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: doubt about that. He had Scottish ancestry and by all
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: accounts was a very large, very handy individual, could look
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: after himself, a very gruff not the kind of guy
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: you would expect Yoko oroner wants to be hanging around
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: her really to be honest, but Yoko hired him. Yoko
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: always took care of security. When they started to record
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: Double Fantasy in the summer in nineteen eighty, Yoko started
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: to give interviews to magazines where she started to tell
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: the journalists their movements. We get up, we get there
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: on ten am on a Tuesday, and then we leave
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: normally at four pm, blah blah blah, and he allegedly
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: Dug pulled her up and said, you shouldn't be doing this.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: It's a security threat. You need to be a little
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: bit more careful about what you say about your movements.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: According to legend, Yoko then got angry that he suggested
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: this and put him on a leave of Abbs didn't
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: fire him put him in a leave of absence. So
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: around about sort of sort of September, early October time,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: Doug mcdog was gone. Okay, Now, there are some people
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: who interviewed the Lenards who said they saw security around them.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: There was a BBC DJ journalist called Andy Peebles who
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: said he came to intersue the Lenonds two days before
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: the murder and saw two very big, burly bodyguards that
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: were always around them. We don't know who these people are.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: I still can't figure out who these people are. So
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: he might have been confused and thought there was someone else,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: But anyway, there was some kind of security around them.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: What we do know is on the night of the murder,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: Doug McDougal wasn't there, so when they got out of
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: that limo, there was no security. Now, some people said
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: Yoka made sure of that. Yeah, Okay, maybe maybe not.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: It might just been a really horrible coincidence that she
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: came to leave of absence a few weeks before the murder.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: I can see how people put two and two together there,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: but for me, that's not enough evidence to say that
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: she's nefariously involved. What we do know is is that
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: he turns up that night, very early hours of the morning.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: He turns out to start work again. Now some people said,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: out there you go. She kept him, stood him down
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: until John was done, and she got him straight back
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: into the fold. Or you could say someone just shot
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: her husband and she rang out security guard and said,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: when you come in and help protect me, because you know,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: I don't want someone to come and shoot me, which
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: again makes perfect sense. Fred Seaman, a guy who worked
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: with the Lennon's, has said in his book that he
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: saw in Yoko's diary that the next day, the ninth
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: of December, was kind of like Doug McDougall returning to
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: work kind of entry. He's given no proof of that.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: We have to take Fred Seamans word for that, and
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: what Fred's obviously inferring is she kept him out of
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: the way until she could till John was shot, and
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: she got him back on. Now, what we do know
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: is when he did come back to work on the
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: early hours of the morning of after Monday the eighth
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: for December, is he kind of got the Pinketon Agency
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: in going to the very serious hardcore security firm with
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: machine guns and lots of armor and AMMO, and they
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: all started to wander around the Dakota corridors and rooms,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: and so they went from zero to one hundred when
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: it came to security, and everyone was a bit frightened
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: of these heavy duty guys around the place. And then
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: thirty six hours after John's murder, so not the day after,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: the day after that. Wikipedia have got that wrong. Wikipedi
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: says it was on the day after the body. It wasn't.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: It was a day after day after, So it's thirty
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: six hours after. She instructs Doug McDougall to take John
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: from the morgue to a phone Cliff's crematorium, and John
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: was made without her attending, without John's family attending, without
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: anyone getting a chance to say goodbye. Some people could
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: say that was rushed. It was rushed. It was a
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: bit callous that she didn't turn up or didn't just
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: have an ex FBI agent there arranging John's funeral is
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: very strange. What's even stranger is Doug McDougall found a
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: metal object in John's ashes. Not quite sure whether that
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: Doug found that or whether the sort of crematorium staff
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: heard a bit of jangling in the jar, or I
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: don't know how they all this came about. I've got
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: a note from Doug McDougall sent to Ron Hoffman, the
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: lead detective, saying there's this unverified gray metal object in
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: John's ashes. It was probably a fragment of a bullet,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: to be honest, I think, because there was lots of
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: different bullets sort of fan in John, which is a
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: story for another day. So they Ron Hoffin said, yeah,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: we sent it off analysis and it was a bit
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: that broke off the crematorium. It just wasn't very convincing
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: what they said it was. But anyway, Doug brings back
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: John's ashes in a colorful box to fall the fans.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: Outside of the character, it's just almost Borderville. Really walks
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: in with John's ashes, gives it to Yoka. Famously, one
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: of the guys in the kitchen says, what's in the box, Doug,
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: and he said, this is the most famous musician who
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: ever lived. Just sounds too cheesy to me, but we'll
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: go with it. And then it gives it to Yoka.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: She puts the ashes under her bed, and apparently that's
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: that's the last anybody's kind of verified of where John's
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: ashes is with regards to Doug. Next year next spring,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: Doug's still doing his job and allegedly he takes his
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: eye off Shaan in Central Park. Co fires him for
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: not keeping an eye on him all the time. Doug
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: then takes a lot of Lenen possessions would you believe?
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: And I think this weird stuff like letters and tapes
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: and a pen knife. Would you believe? A Swiss Army
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: pen knife? Away, I thought that was important. But he
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: takes all this stuff. Rings up Elliot Mintz Joko's very famous,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: some would say infamous publicist, and says to Elliott Mints
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: I've got all this stuff. And the reason I've taken
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: all this stuff is you only back paid. Come and
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: bring me on my back pay and you can have
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: all this stuff back. And according to earlier he went
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: over to Doug's house gave him whatever back paid. Doug
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: thought he was owed, got all the material back, and interestingly,
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: I'm pretty certainly given an NDA. I'm pretty sure at
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: that point because we never heard from Doug officially again.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: But I've never actually said this in my book. I've
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: only found this out recently, and this is an exclusive
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: for you, Adam. Doug does turn up again in the
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: Lenon's life afterwards, You'd think that would be the end
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: of Doug stealing stuff, demanded money, But Doug became in
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: the years to come. He started to work for Lino
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: No Music, And I've got documentation to prove this. And
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: Lino Music was a Lenin publishing house set up by
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: Yokoono after John's death. Now I think it might have
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: been set up before John's death, but actually it was
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: active after John's death. Publishing. Now, why would the bodyguard
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: work for that company?
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's strange.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: Why would she allow that to happen? Because I've spoken
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: to Mike Madeiros and Fred Seaman who both say that
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: Doug didn't like Yoka after the murder, didn't like the
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: way it was treated. Wasn't a big Yoko fan. And
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: obviously he did that thing by taking all the possessions
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: and demanding money, and Elliott did all this. So what
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: the hell is he doing working for Lenono Publishing? Yeah,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: it makes no sense whatsoever, But clearly Yoko forgave him.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: Ye should have had to should have had to assanction that.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: So the Doug mcdougas story has got a long way
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: to go. There's a lot more to come. Regarding Doug
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: McDougal and who he was and who he was working
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 3: for and what he did after the murder. I'd like
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: to know more about how he ends up working for
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: a Lenin company. That makes no sense to me.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. So million dollar question. Why
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: would the American government want to kill John Lennon?
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I'd say, Adam is I don't
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: think it was the government. I think and I don't
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 3: think any of these operations you could talk about for
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: a Hampson, Malcolm x jfkrfk All, the suspicious murders of
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: the sixties and Lemon. I don't think it is just
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: one entity. I think it's always a mistake to say
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: it was a CIA, it was American government, it was
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: the FBI, it was this, it was that, it was
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: a Satanist, it was a scientologist theories. For me, I
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: think the way this works is it will certainly never
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: be an official government sanction. I think it's an off
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: books group of people, like minded people who get together
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: and say, do you know what, if that guy went,
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 3: it would sort of be good for all of us.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: And I think it was elements within the Republican movement.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: I think it would have been Republican sympathizers who put
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: it all together. And I think we forget that John
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: Lennan was the most influential political musical artist in the
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: twentieth century. There's no doubt about that. John. John wasn't
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: just amind of the greatest music artists. It was a
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: politically active and politically influential music artist. And sometimes you
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: don't need to see a problem to fix it. You
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: have to just imagine the problems coming. And I think
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: they probably imagined that once he got his green card
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: stamped to Fishy in January nine and eighty one, because
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: remember he got it in seventy six, provisionally be in
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: eighty one, he would have been free to come and
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: go from the country who's planning a world tour. So
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: he would have been able not only to spread an
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: anti Ronal Reagan message in America and have been able
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 3: to spread that all over the world. They knew that.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: So think about the timing here. We knew he was back,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: we knew his active. He was due to go to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: San Francisco at the end of December to attend a
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: Asian Workers rally for Asian Workers' rights, So he was
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: already planning political activism at that point. And I just
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: think the people that surrounded Mark Chapman were Republican sympathizers
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: who were connected to Nixon. There are connections to Nixon,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: There are connections to Reagan's administration with regards to Joe Rogers,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: there are connections to as people like Courtis Cooper who
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: knew people who knew Chapman, and Courtus Cooper worked for
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: the Rand Corporation in the Pentagon. So there are very
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 3: serious military Republican sympathizers attached to people, strongly attached, deeply
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: attached to people who were handling Mark Chapman. And I
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: think I just can't walk away from that coincidence, and
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: I can't ignore that coincidence. And I think Mark Chapman
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: was like John Hinckley and various other people that will
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: probably never get to know their names. He was just
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 3: part of a group of people who could be plucked
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: off a shelf and programmed to become obsessed about a
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: certain thing. And I think initially they probably had an
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: initial dry run in seventy eight when he was sent
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: to Mount Fuji. I think that might have been just
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: to see how far we can get this guy to
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: get close to John Lennon. And then clearly in the
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: summer of nineteen eighty by all the evidence that Mark
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: which just suddenly became obsessed about catching the Ryan John Lennon.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: He says this himself, and I think that's when the
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: plot was triggered. But again I think it went wrong.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: The one thing they didn't want Adam was Mark Chapman
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: to say I shot John in the back, but the
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: actual evidence was John was shot in front. That was
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: a mistake. I think Mark, we imagined something obviously we
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: know he didn't do. And I think the minute you
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: actually if you think about that logically, how is it
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: would it be for Mark Chapman to say, I shouted
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: out to John, I walked up to him, he turned around,
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 3: I shot him in the front and he fell down
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: or he staggered off into the building. Yeah, it's no
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: words to Mark whether he shot him in the front
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: or the back. But Mark is imagining something that he's
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: not doing, so clearly his mind is not fully there.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: So it's and then when you think, oh, okay, and
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: you're and then suddenly a couple of days later, some
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: mind control expert from the CIA walks into cell and
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: someone is a legend that you were doing some brainwashing
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: techniques in a mental hospital a couple of years earlier.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: It all starts to stack up that this guy was
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: a classic Manchurian patsy. I'm getting back to your question
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: about the American government. I think it was people who
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: were sympathetic to the incoming Ronald Reagan administration, which is,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 3: you know better than anyone was a very hawkish and
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 3: that's putting it mildly administration and the atrocities that they
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: did in Central America and Iran Contra and a corruption.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: I was just shocked when I looked into it and
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: researched this administration, just the amount of corruption that was
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: involved and they were all pardoned. The corruption didn't go
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: in Reagan. He's a puppet as far as I was concerned.
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: He's an actor and he was a bush was behind
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: him pulling the strings. I'm pretty sure about that, and
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: he did what he was told. He came across as
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: a great folksy homesteader, but I just think the people
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: that are around him were not going to allow his
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: program to not go through it. In the next twelve years,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: that program right up to the first in right war
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: was on steroids. And you know, America changed from nineteen
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: eighty to the end of the Bush first Bush administration. Wow,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: those twelve years, not just America, the whole world changed
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: from being a kind of it was. It didn't change
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: for the better as far as I'm concerned. And so no,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: So I just think Lemon people underestimate and forget just
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: what a gobby, brave, reckless man he was, you know.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: And if he saw something he didn't like, he didn't
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: care who it was, he'd say it, and often to
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: his detriment. And I think they knew this. He was
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 3: a loose cannon. I think the religious element does come
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: into it. I think the bigger than Jesus thing was
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: used on Mark. There was a psychiatrist in Hawaii. He
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: gave one interview and then he disappeared down the memory hull,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 3: Jiles Bernhardt, who was a psychiatrist slash hicknotist, another one
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: of these guys, and he said he gome one Intovie
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: and he said that Mark Chatman saw himself as a
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 3: kind of Christian avenging angel. And as John never mentioned
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: the stuff about Jesus and didn't make a comeback then
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: Mark that the plot for Mark to kill him wouldn't
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: have been activated. So I think Jiles Bernhardt got the
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 3: game away there that I think Mark was not only
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: being used to use the capturing the Rye John Lem
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: as a phony kind of triggering in his mind, but
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: I think he was also set up as a kind
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: of Christian ge hardy. I think that was another part
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: of the Mark Chapman mindset. It was a pretty far
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: right Southern guy. Mark Chapman not a pleasant individual when
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: it came to his politics. There are sort of some
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: evidence that he was quite racist, and it just wasn't
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: particularly nice guy when it came to that kind of thing.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 3: And I just think I think he was partly willing,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 3: and I think he was partly abused. And I think
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 3: the team around him would have been connected to American
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: government through kind of support and affiliation and kind of
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: how they would have wanted the outcome to happen with
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 3: the guys to what Reagan did. But I wouldn't even
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: say that the CIA officially were sanctioning this. I just
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: think it was people that had connections to the CIA,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 3: and people had connections to the minitriyanto Us. But I
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: think if you're looking for an American intelligence outfit that
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: was more than likely behind it, I think you're looking
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: at OHNI you're looking at the Navy intelligence more than anybody,
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: because there's just wherever you look in this story is
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: the fingerprint of Navy intelligence, including Charles McGowan. I'm not
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: saying for a minute Charles McGowan was behind the plot,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: but he's got some very serious questions to answer, Charles.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: And it's just very odd that a day after the
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: murdery flew to Mark in New York on the dime
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: of another preacher called Stephen Olford, who was committed Sir
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: Richard Nixon. And this preacher, Stephen Alford, funded Mark's defense.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: He got Charles McGowan to put another preacher into Mark's sales,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: Like why why are you doing all this? Charles? Why
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: is Stephen Alford doing all this? You don't know march Appen,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: He's nothing to you. Mark left to go to a
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: y in seventy seven. Why is Charles McGowan even interested
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: in march app How did you know that march Atten
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: was in New York that night? You know, they've got
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 3: so many questions to answer. These guys. And when you
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: look at the people that are connected to Alford McGowan,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: you're looking at Richard Nixon, You're looking at Joe Rogers,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: who is Ronald Reagan's main money man, and you're looking
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 3: at people like Courts Cooper, who was a serious deep
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 3: state Rand Corporation Pentagon insider. These people should not be
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: connected to march Appman. They just should not. March Adman
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: should be that guy that we talked about right at
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: the start of this living above his dad, mum and
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: dad shot, listening to Judas Price records backwards, and just
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: an ultimate loser who just suddenly snapped. I could buy that.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: I could totally buy that gets a gun in a
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: fit of anger. So I want to be someone I'm
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 3: going to kill John them and to be that's not
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: the march Appman story, and that's not who was around him.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: So I really hope, Adam, that people take this batter
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: on now and there's more to uncover here. We need
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: to find out more about these people who are around
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: Marchapman because we're running out of time here, because a
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 3: lot of these people are getting very old. They're going
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: to be around much longer, and I want accountability. And
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 3: I think the NYPD and the DIA's office need to
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: release how's they bedern my statement? They need to release
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: crime scene photos. They need to tell us coherently why
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: march Atman thinks he's done something he hasn't done, and
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: we just we need some answers. Jonathan Marx, he needs
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: to come out of the woodwork now and say, did
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: you know that Miil Klein was on a documentary boasting
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 3: about his CIA menta in candidate credentials a year before
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: you send him into march out the cell? How could
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: you not have known that? Were you comfortable sending him in?
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: So?
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot more to come.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it. I know we haven't covered
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: everything in the book obviously. Is there anything we haven't
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: talked about before we wrap up that you want to
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: make sure people know?
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I think the final thing we can talk about
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: is the autopsy, just quick for sure. Yeah. The guy
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: who did the autopsy was a guy called Elliot Gross,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: and I haven't seen the autopsy, but I've spoken to
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: a lot of people who have, and I've got a
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: pretty good run out of what's on it. Elliot Gross
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: talks about wounds in the side and front, and he
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: talks back wounds on the lower back of the upper back.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: He talks about quite sort of chaotic bullet wounds that
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: are kind of literally all over John's body. Really, they're
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: coming out at different angles all over the place. He
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: doesn't talk about four in the front. He doesn't talk
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: about three in the back. Two things people should know
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: about Elliott Gross. One thing is he turned up on
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 3: the night of the murder at the Roosevelt Hospital tell
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: you out of the blue. Wasn't supposed to be there.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 3: The nurses were furious because he asked them to unwrap
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 3: John's body, unwrap the wounds so he could take a
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: very quick look at the ins and outs of the
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 3: front and back. I think that was very ne fairest.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 3: I think someone sent Elliott Gross there to actually get
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: the lowdown on exactly where John's wounds were. The very
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 3: next morning there, Elliot Grosse did the autopsy on John,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: and that's an autopsis that obviously contradicts what the nurses
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: and doctors saw, but does kind of help the official
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: narrative that Mark might have shot him in the back.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: People should also know that Elliott Gross has had multiple
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: accusations throughout his career, and I mean multiple of falsifying
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: autopsies on behalf of the NYPD. It should be said
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 3: he was never convicted. He always got off and had
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 3: to move on to another state because his name was
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: so badly dragged through the mud in New York for
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: a start. But yeah, Elliott Gross is not a guy
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: I would say personally that has an unimpeachable record, And
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: it's just a shame that the guy that got to
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 3: undertake John's autopsy was a guy who has multiple accusations
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: of fraud in regards to autopsies. So is that a coincidence? Again,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 3: maybe maybe not. But one thing he did do lastly
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: to say that, And when he did go and ask
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: Barbara and Dee the nurses to take off John's bandages
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: and see those bullets again, he gave the nurses yet
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: another chance to see John's wounds up close. So they
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: saw John's wounds three times. They saw it when he
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: first came in the r room, they saw his wounds
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: when they first washed his body and shrouded it, and
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: they saw his wounds again when Elliot Gross asked him
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: to deshroud John. And then they had to retroud him again.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: So they know, these nurses know for sure where John
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: Lenham was shot, and they said he was shot four
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: times up left chest, three coming out of upper left
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: back as this doctor Hall would say. And there's no
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 3: on earth Mark Chapman from where he was standing and
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: where John was standing could have pulled that off. So
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: this this is the crux of the matter.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope there is more news about this at
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: some point.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: I'm host to a documentary I'm hoping to do. I've
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: got a documentary and the film in the works, but
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: they will have to be done right. I won't be
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: doing anything that doesn't tell the full story. So and
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: people are from you know, it's like film and TV.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: I heard you guys talking about the recent optical stuff
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 3: on Netflix. It's good to get someone who's info out,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 3: but it's never put out fully. There's always stuff they
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: don't say. So I want to say it. I want
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: to get the story out properly. I hope this will
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: come out later this year. But if it doesn't come
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 3: out of the way I want it to come out,
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 3: it's not going to come out. But my book's out
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 3: there now. The information is out there, so I hope
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 3: people will buy the book and they will pick up
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: the information, run with it and dig out some new
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: stuff and find some new stuff out. There's still time.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll link to the book in the show notes obviously.
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: Where else in the meantime between the book and hopefully
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: the document coming out, where can people keep up with
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: you and updates on this?
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: Great? Thank you, Adam. I've got a substact David Whelm
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: at substack dot com where all my Lenin articles are on.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: I've got a YouTube channel, Assassination of Lenin, where there's
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: a lot of footage of people talking about the case,
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 3: especially Ron Hoffman talking about being shot in the vestigal.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: That's a clip world worth seeing. There's you can get
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: me on Twitter x where it's called at Lena Murder.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: And yeah, just come and message me, Come and talk
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 3: to me, come and follow me, Come and get involved
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: in the conversation. There is new stuff coming out all
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: the time. I've got a couple of articles going up soon.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: I am getting new information given to me all the time.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: So this is ongoing. And yeah, just all I can
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: say to people that there is it spread the word.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 3: Just to spread the word. There's too many people who
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: don't know about this, and he was a major musical
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: artistic icon. He deserves there to be no question marks
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: over his death. So let's hope we can get it
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: all cleared up. But you know, yeah, hi, Jeff kay,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 3: is that kid up? No? No, I'm not that hopeful. Yeah.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for doing the episode. I
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: really appreciate it. I appreciate all the work and research
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: that went into this book. It is a fascinating book.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: I hope people pick up a copy and read it
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: because it make a very compelling case. Mildly and I
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: think that's it. Thank you everyone for listening. I appreciate it.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: We're going to get out of here. Hey, David Wheeland,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: say goodbye, goodbye, Thank you, Adam, goodbye, everybody.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: We love you
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: People.