Latest / The Light Medicine Podcast / How an Integrative Oncologist Uses Light Therapy | Ep. 21 ft. Dr. James Laporta

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How an Integrative Oncologist Uses Light Therapy | Ep. 21 ft. Dr. James Laporta · The Light Medicine Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: For this patient, nothing was working.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember at the scan and they reported five different nodules.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we said, it was one of the first patients we treated.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: We said, okay, we're going to take a little bit of um took a little bit of mistletoe and a little bit of endocyanin green and just by ultrasound inject it into each of the lesions around her neck.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: We had to be careful of the vocal cords.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then got her to swallow the cable with some honey and it just shone there.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember turning off the lights, and the cable was so strong that her her whole throat was just shining red like this.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we did that treatment uh every three weeks for three times.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she went back and had the scan, expecting there to be progression.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they could only see one lesion at the back of the vocal cords that we couldn't get to.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it was such a um they even called the radiologist in and thought there was a technical glitch, and they redid the scan, and it was uh I remember that one standing out as an impossible to treat case, and then she was able to have surgery, and she's still alive today, and you know, it's seven, eight years later.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hi and welcome everybody um for a new episode of our light medicine podcast.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm very happy and honored that we have our good friend, um Dr.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: James Laporta from Cape Town, South Africa, as our guest.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, he's a good friend, but also a huge expert when it comes to photodynamic therapy, especially cancer um therapy and also photobiomodulation in general for regenerative applications.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's very experienced, always lecturing at our conferences, um, yeah, bringing in a lot of very good research and clinical data.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very happy that he will share his knowledge with us today.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, usually um we just start by you telling us a little bit about your background, uh what brought you into the field of light medicine.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, thanks again for being our guest today, and just tell us a little bit about yourself.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Robert, yeah, good to be here.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: You always talk about the podcasts, and I've watched a few, so very keen to finally be uh meeting you here.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: You asked me how I first got interested in laser.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Was actually when we opened a cancer clinic, probably about just over 10 years ago.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we started touring, I sort of toured the world to go and work at different clinics and and see what's out there.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when we stopped, uh it's been quite a few years we've been with you now.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um just going to your clinic and and seeing your dad, uh Dr.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Webber, doing some photodynamic therapy.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so impressed with how even while we were there in the two or three weeks we saw tumor shrinking, a lot different from a lot of the other clinics.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I left with a machine under my one arm and a couple of extra diodes under the right, and we uh came back to Cape Town and started the research as it were.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we were fortunate enough to have a clinic that could see very frail patients and support them with IV nutrition, rehydration, scheduled medicines, and even some light dose chemo.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we were able to um sort of offer them these additional treatments, initially more palliative for pain and reducing really large tumor masses.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we started using it for earlier cancer cases too, and we're just astonished at how certain cancers responded so quickly.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we would be taking the endocyanin green, injecting it into the tumor, putting in some of the needles with the fibrotic cables, and just uh treating them over a period of five days.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we would notice that the pain would become a lot less, the sweat it would shrink a lot, the inflammation would be less, and the patient becomes a lot more um tolerant of other treatments and it just really helped generally integrate uh integrate well into our practice.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what we what we started finding, even over bone lesions or metastatic lesions, that we could then inject intravenously that endocyanin green um and get right through bone with the infrared, because it's that long wavelength that travels right through the skin and into the bone.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Put a needle down next to the bone.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, even when radiation had stopped working, we were able to relieve pain control.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that got me interested in the lasers uh a lot.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we we tried different types of photosensitizing agents.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as everyone knows, the many, many photosensitizing agents, but very, very hard to get enough wavelength and diffusion of uh through the actual tissue and onto the tumor.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: So one was is there enough photoagent?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does the wavelength that activates that photosensitizing agent able to penetrate deep enough into the tissue?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And can it penetrate with sufficient watts?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So oxygen photosensitized and watts.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: If those three were high enough, we saw results.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the infrared seemed to be the best in those situations.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then as you started bringing out more and more colours in the different wavelengths, and the green 532 and the the yellow or the gold sun one, five, eight, nine um wavelengths, we saw patients change remarkably symptom-wise or headache-wise, when we started doing just endovascular uh photobiomodulation.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I I I consider myself a skeptical scientist, and I could never explain why why this would happen.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, to be honest, still today I can't explain some of some of the findings.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um that we worked with these different wavelengths, and on the surface of red blood cells and white cells, you have these chromophores, which can be activated by green or yellow or even blue laser, and they just simply create thermal or well, not thermal ligator channels, that's more than infrared.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: The chromophores actually release certain transcription fractors and allow for nitric oxide to be released, and you have more vasodilation, uh, you have a lot of oxygen release and more carrying potential from the red cells.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a um unbelievable benefit of just blood rheology sort of opening up and not so much coagulation in the blood.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've got some pictures we can maybe share the screen of the studies we did.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what was even more fascinating than that is why symptoms changed when we would be doing these intravenous lasers, right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: You radiate the blood.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the part of me said, well, the the frequency and the vibration would be traveling in the blood and affecting cells, but from a physics level, I I couldn't explain it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um I've studied Chinese medicine, and when we did the pulses, for example, we do the yellow laser pulse, the uh liver pulp, the yellow laser endovascularly, the liver pulse opens up.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that helps with depression, that helps with uh headaches.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um lot of talk around serotonin vitamin D, but I haven't found enough papers to actually quantify that it changes any anything biochemically.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So how some of these things work, we don't know.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: All the patients with chronic fatigue and depression feel better with yellow laser.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: The patients after chemo with a lot of headaches or side effects, yellow laser just really brightens them up.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: You can even see their eyes change after a while.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a typical Chinese medicine liver opening.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but from a from a biophysiological point of view, we won't go into the red and infrared laser because we know that that activates mitochondria and transcription factors, growth factors.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: But just how these lasers actually start changing behavior of blood and Chinese medicine meridian pathways, I I have yet to explain.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've come across anything, Robert, uh recently.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know I know the Chinese medicine practitioners always talk about it with acupuncture points, but uh just simply inside the veins, they seem to have a result.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Explain it yet.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: There's still a lack of yeah, some research in this field of basic mechanisms, biochemical mechanisms.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, um I don't think there is anything new right now, and we are still focusing like you more on the clinical research.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, but coming back to my initial question, um, I think your personal background is more like in surgery, trauma surgery, because what I already uh really liked about your approach is that you were one of those very pioneering, I would say, brave guys who did all those very invasive cancer procedures, for example.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this is um also one of your backgrounds, right?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we we we did uh so back in the day we would be doing for liver metastasis, we would actually be doing intra-hepatic injections of endocyanin green, watch it flare up on the ultrasound, and then putting cables intrathoracically or um down through the sophagus, and uh really getting to the tumor.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and without a question of a doubt, if you can get to where the tumor is with enough of the light and enough of the photosensitizing agent, it um it worked.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: So my background is in a postgraduate in psychiatry and then and then sort of trauma surgery.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And the um the psychiatry element I think is so useful in cancer and in just mind-body phenomena of people going through this.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that gave me a container of enabling closer connection and human meeting because that's all we do as doctors, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: We allow human experience to unfold and try and help the body find balance, and then being able to understand the technicalities of using blazing and surgical devices really helped me kind of push the boundaries a bit to see what we can do with the lasers.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I must say, simplified most of the success we got are from fairly easy to treat conditions.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So right now, just before the call, literally walked in, took my gloves off, and we had someone who's just got really resistant um prostate lesions that that haven't been responding in the bed, these PSAs dropped, no more metastasis, it's good.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we have um been able to inject with endocinine green and put a cable through the urethra and light at the prostatic bed.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Credible results.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: More simply than that, are those cervical lesions.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: You put your 5ALA cream and do 680 nanometer wavelength, or um again, endosinin green.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: We used to use quite a bit.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So cervical lesions with a simple speculum.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, tomorrow we have someone flying in from the Netherlands and they've got really quite severe stenosis in the rectum, and the surgery is is is not reversible once they do that and they they have it done with me.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So he's at risk for obstruction.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And again, responsibly, this is not replacing surgery or radiation, but it's giving him an opportunity of quick results to open up as the rest of the medicines take effect.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So he'll arrive tomorrow and we will inject him with quite a high dose, 300 milligrams of endosin and green, and we put a rectal cable up with uh either the 5 watt or the 2 watts, so 2000 milliwatt infrared, and leave that there for a while.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Without a doubt, pain stops, bleeding often stops, and it opens up the the rectum, and and that just gives us time for treatment to work.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so so my so my background discovering the lasers, integrating it into the practice, uh and really enjoying how useful it is as an adjunct, never a replacement.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I see some clinics trying to use PDT or photobiomodulation to treat cancer, but it's it's really just a powerful adjunct when used in the right place, but not a replacement.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be my next question, actually.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is a good integrative concept for you?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's what we are all looking for in cancer therapy.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So if a new patient walks into your clinic, of course, I know PDT is a big or an important tool, but which other things would you recommend to such a patient or what are you doing in your clinic?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Medic has advanced light years in the last two years, and we have opportunity to treat with good chemotherapy and support chemotherapy with natural intravenous infusions, intravenous curcumin, things like that.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: We can use photobiomodulation to mitigate again side effects like the peripheral neuropathies, the mucositises, if they do occur.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Very rarely, with all of the adjunctive intravenous and photobiomodulation, hyperbaric oxygen, etc., when needed, we rarely have to reduce the dose of chemo.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when someone comes in, I often try and divert them back onto full chemo.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we then, if they've been through the chemo route and it hasn't worked or chemo isn't appropriate for some cancers, you know, success isn't great.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: We look for targeted agents and do full molecular profiling of their of their tumor.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a new school of thought emerging, and some good papers written that beyond where the cancer originated or the diagnosis of the cancer, the molecular profiling behavior of the cancer can dictate effective treatment as one would treat a breast cancer with certain mutations and HO2 mutation, you could treat another cancer that has the same mutations.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, screening for immunotherapies, big a big aspect to that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a it's a misconception that patients will all do well on immunotherapy if they have high PDL1 scores or if you just give them immunotherapy.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Colorectal cancer, for example, just does not respond to immunotherapy.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Even with a high mutational burden, it's very rare.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: You get uh microsatellite unstable or lynch syndrome patients, which dissolves it like candy floss on a rainy day, you know.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: But those are rare, um, more right side, yeah, uh colorectal cancer.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we definitely molecular profile, targeted treatment, review chemo, do immunotherapy, those are kind of the uh the core backbone.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then adding onto that electrohypothermia for the first two months has been critical for the very advanced cases, changing that tumor microenvironment that is hard, rubbery, uh porse, desert landscape, hypoxic, high-pressurized, uh, as I said, you're very poorly perfused.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you can heat that up and generate a fever response and open up the blood vessels, more chemo goes in or more immunotherapy, more fever heat shock proteins are released, more immune cells are recruited, and you just change this cold rubbery nodule into a much more malleable, softer type of chem uh tumor.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: You add PDT to that, you locally activate immune cells and also soften it further.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can um uh sometimes, depending on the kind of cancer and chemo or immuno using some high doses of curcumin or orphan types of botanical isolates, can really change the immune landscape and inflammatory profile of the cancer.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we like seeing our bloods normalize, we like supporting patients with micronutrient and mineral deficiencies.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I hate supplementing as a general rule.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I like supplementing specific.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So just like building a grand pre-car, you don't put foilers and wings and curves everywhere on the car, it doesn't make it go faster.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: But if you choose the right curve for the right car in the right condition, you streamline it and it just goes that much faster.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what these complementary adjuncts, you know, just have to be used in a very personalized way.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do we integrate?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, photobiomodulation for chemotherapy side effects and enhancing and recovery from surgeries, PDT, definitely changing tumor microenvironments.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I always use it initially, but it's not going to be enough to treat the cancer right now into the stem cells.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: We want more treatments, uh, chemo and um immuno and targeted, and the electrohypothermia with an electromagnetic fields, not hypothermia whole body and not convection, because you can't heat a tumour up, but cool it before the convection goes through.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you do an electromagnetic field uh quite high powered, and that heats up tumors preferentially, like a PET CT scat.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: That for me has been an absolute game changer of it.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, huge results.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what we find is even just treating one aspect of tumor in stage four, suddenly all the other tumors start responding much better because the body's been able to mount a response, its resilience levels are up.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: The concept of just doing six months of chemo, I know this is quite controversial.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: We have some patients on three years of chemo, and they just keep coming light dose, and that's from lung, liver, bone, bilirubens of uh, you know, normal bilirubin needs to be below 20.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: We have bilirubens of 400, and we still treat them with chemo and all these other supportive treatments, and they they just improve.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's remarkable how adaptable the body is and how much it can tolerate and how non-toxic chemo can become when they support it properly.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's quite a statement.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And do you see some tumors reacting better than others, or are you treating all different types of tumors?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what is your experience?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it's taken a long time to find out which ones work.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: We you know from the lectures we do often, I always put the pancreatic cancers up there.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I say if anyone's found out how to make PDT work for pancreatic cancer, let me know.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's it's it's tricky.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've like got needles right into the pancreas.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: It just does, it seems to push the endocynd green out.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: But you look at what gemcytobene and abraxane, which is uh albumin-bound pachytaxyl chemo, does with the latest study showing uh kilogram of vitamin C three times a week, you know, for 25 treatment sessions, and you add hypothermia to that, we see more than 90% of all the patients respond considerably.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And now, if they have certain mutations associated with them, they've got targeted therapies that are game changers.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've got all the, you know, the not the peptides like the immune peptides.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I think they rarely work.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them can help the body, but even just GLP ones with certain types of cancers or metabolically sick patients, you know, really help metastatic potential, reduce the overall insulin growth factor uh landscape.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So to answer your question, I think glioblastomas is probably one of the hardest in melanomas.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Glioblastomas, you treat it, and then as everything's going well, another little lesion pops up.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's one of those things where we where we're now starting to incorporate a lot more uh integrative therapies than what we used to, and we see much better results.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, melanoma is a a hit or miss depending on what kind of mutations you have.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Pancreatic cancers become much easier.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Breast is maybe just something to say on breast cancer for those practitioners listening.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's a big difference between early breast cancer where you treat them well with chemo, and especially with PDT.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: We've had cases where they they do PDT before surgery and they can't find tumors anymore after just three, you know, three weeks of PDT, and then two months later they do surgery and there's nothing there.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most of the time we like to combine it with chemo.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do strong treatment for early breast cancer, you should not need to be doing all these integrative therapies at really quickly, effectively, surgery done, radiation, and then maybe hormone treatment depending.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I see a lot of patients progress unnecessarily, but when it comes to stage four, it's such an interesting landscape now with something like breast cancer.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have six, sick patients, like incredibly sick patients.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, many of the pro audience that will be listening to this will see those that have come after trying almost everything, whether their entire body is filled with cutaneous metastasis or they have more bone, more tumour than bone.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I really find integrative therapy and single-agent chemotherapy to be so effective.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Something like paclitaxil, curcumin, and avastin, full doses before any hormone treatment, just really shrinks the tumors, put them on some photobiomodulation bed, especially if they are on VHF inhibitors, um, some intravenous nutrition, get their protein up, get their inflammatory markers down, and in three to four weeks, they just they light up, they change, they start picking up weight.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then after about two or three months, they change from this frail, advanced stage four cancer patient to resolving stronger bones, feeling better, and then they go into hormonal, and we just check in on them every now and then, and they they do what and some of them have just gone into complete remission.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so just a concept of how important our role is in very advanced cancers to help bring patients back to a point of balance that they can then reintegrate into more conventional and integrative type therapies.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, this is where something like a laser bed is just an unbelievable adjunct.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, really enjoy using that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, for our patients listening, maybe you can share one or two of your yeah, promising good success stories.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe something typically all of us we have something in mind, you know, when we remember something that really changed your belief also in the beginning.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe when you started with PDT and we all had this one case where we thought, okay, this is really working.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: This was like a game changer.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember of any or can you remember any of those success stories?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, Robert's so many come to mind.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm I'm thinking, I'm trying to think back, or I right even when we first met, you know, we were experimenting with uh just something like uh recurrent effusions that were just really hard to control.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And doing uh a pleural tap, injecting some endocyne green, and putting a fiber optic cable in there was uh just a few two, three treatments of that, and there's no more fusion, even though the patient's not on any other systemic treatment.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I I loved the uh we had a we've actually got me a hurl cell carcinoma, um, really hard to treat.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I know nowadays they have the uh something like Nvatina Bin Pembrolizimab or one of the other tyrosine kinase inhibitors, but some of the patients don't tolerate that well.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: For this patient, nothing was working.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember at the scan and they had reported five different nodules, and we said it was one of the first patients we treated.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: We said, Okay, we're gonna take a little bit of um took a little bit of mistletoe and a little bit of endocyanin green, and just by ultrasound, inject it into each of the lesions around a neck.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: We had to be careful of the vocal cords, and then got her to swallow the cable with some honey, and it just shone there.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember turning off the light.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the cable was so strong that her her whole throat was just shining red like this.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we did that treatment uh every three weeks for for three times.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she went back and had the scan, expecting that to be progression.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they could only see one lesion at the back of the vocal cords that we couldn't get to.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was such a um they even called the radiologist in and thought there was a technical glitch, and they redid the scan, and it was uh I remember that one standing out as an impossible to treat case.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then she was able to have surgery and she's still alive today, and you know, seven, eight years later.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think maybe uh liver tumors uncomfortable children.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we like to talk about children, but sometimes we have uh especially those really aggressive rhabdomyosarcomas.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's maybe a story that comes up, Robert.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: The um I remember one young girl having a whole abdomen was just a liver full of tumor and really, really painful, and she had what up in the side of her mouth too.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we um injected just a little bit of endocyanin green, a little bit of cocumin for the inflammation.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: We waited for that to go through, and then over the next few days just gently shone the lasers, and she loved the the light warmth of the laser, and the inflammation went down.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Her liver in 10 days sort of went down by about 10%, and in a month it had gone to less than half the size.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And with children, they grow so quickly with tumours but respond so quickly.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was just amazing to see uh a kid looking so sick, then being so awake and alive and alert and back with their parents.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the young girl came to visit me the other day three years ago.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: I remember we had to spend an hour and a half just asking her.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: She was three and a half years old, sorry, four and a half years old.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: We had to ask her to hold her mouth open while we inject, you know, endocine and green into the into the side there.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um she had some ulcers on the other side from the chemo, and so we used red laser light over a few days.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: That got better, and then she trusted us enough.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we sat with her, asked her to open up her mouth, and eventually she stayed like that, allowed me to inject some endocine and green, um, and like a little tear came, but she didn't move.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then we just used red laser light over that, and the tumor disappeared in in two, three months.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, just just amazing.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Those are some of the cases that stand out.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, breast cancer, just incredible amounts of of success.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, opening up in London, I think what was a highlight, uh we don't really use uh PDT.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: We've used it for superficial uh tumors in London, but for London we use more the uh electrohypothermia.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Work with Professor Stemming up there, who's always um very progressive in terms of combining the right kinds of other targeted treatments, immunotherapy, the electrohypothermia, and then the H bot for recovery.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: So keeping keeping things simple, using the photobiomodulation once every two weeks with a good vitamin B and amino acid and mitochondrial drip, once every two weeks seems to be the golden kind of uh routine uh that we do that just allows patients to tolerate treatment well.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we've had now 13 stage four cancers going to complete remission, and we've only been over just under a year, and that's that's that's remarkable.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's impressive, yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Patients have done maybe even more than that.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them were in stage four, yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: But really, just really enjoyable.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the other, um we haven't spoken about Parkinson's and and joint, you know.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: We used to be into that a lot at the clinic, but cancer's kind of taking everything over at the moment, so yeah, but actually that was my uh would be my next question.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now we mainly talked about cancer, and it was yeah, you shared a lot of very interesting insights, I guess I think, both for practitioners as well as for patients, and we could all see how promising photodynamic therapy is as an adjunctive tool, what you mentioned at the beginning.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, let's um take the remaining time to talk a little bit about the other applications of photobiomodulation, especially in the field of regenerative medicine.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I know cancer is your main focus, but I think you also have quite some experience in on PBM in general for regenerative medicine.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you can tell us a little bit on where do you apply this and where you see good success in this area.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: We don't we don't do it a lot anymore just because of time.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I tried to train a doctor, but we um the they left again.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll pick it up at some point.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm surprised that I mean more and more clinics are doing it, but the success we had with simple hip arthroses that are needing or unable to do hip replacements, or those that are just, you know, wanting to avoid it and not too severe yet, or quite severe knees that have gone through multiple surgeries and and struggling, the combination of just basic spinning down PRP, activating it with red laser, injecting it into the joint space, and then with the same needle that's in the place, putting that fibre up to cable and just spending 20-30 minutes with the red laser into the knee.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the patients immediately feel better, and they're I think that's from the red laser because we see that by just shining it over the knees and the and the joints.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, and then two, three days we always tell them not to not to exercise or do too much, but they send me pictures on the tennis court.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I've got a famous tennis player that keeps coming back, and and she she plays hard tennis and she's uh late 70s and her knees are terrible.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And she'll come back every four or five months and say, My knees, they'll be swollen like this.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: We'll give one treatment and she's back on the court, and nothing else works.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the the combination of activating platelets, and everyone speaks about exosomes and this therapy and growth factors, even hyaluronic acid.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing has been even anything as close to activating concentrated platelets inside the joint space, releasing more exosomes, more um growth factors, and just photobiomodulation, regulating that mitochondrial activity, secreting more natural cartilage um you know activity and just reducing those pro-inflammatory cytokines.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the lasers in the joints were amazing.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I special also did the specialist course in um upper limbs, lower limbs, whole body, and then joints, and into quite a lot of detail.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's a few levels of ultrasound.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we went into any muscle tears or severe tendon injuries or even bicep tendon injuries, and you can go in and actually find where that tear is in the muscle and ultrasound quite easily.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Inject the laser, leave the needle in for 20 minutes.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: They come in once every two days for about three sessions, and the rate of healing is is phenomenal.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, musculos gletal injury with red laser and PRP is such an easy general practice intervention that that was fun back in the day.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll bring it back soon.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think the lying on the laser bed, like for musculoskeletal or just using the red light stops the inflammation, but it doesn't really get into that repair process.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and some people are quite hesitant to use PRP or they use big fancy machines, but it's simple.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, especially in South Africa, a lot of the clinics that it's not a wealthy country, and some of the areas people can't afford a lot.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we just have a desktop, very, very cheap, 2,000 euro centrifuge, and we use the blood kits that we take bloods with and just centrifuge it down.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it used to work very well.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, what are your thoughts on the um brain photobiomodulation?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's move to that topic.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know you don't have a lot of experience with the very new um yeah, brain helmet, which we just developed, but I know you um did a lot of experience with the older version.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I remember you presenting about those um yeah, brainwave measurements and all those things.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you can tell us a little bit about your experience and what you saw with the yeah transcranial application of infrared light.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So again, some of it we can explain, Robin, and some of it's very still very puzzling to me.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let me start by the the easy to explain.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the infrared 810 gets through the skull maybe four or five centimeters into the brain.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Some people say seven, but I don't think more than four or five.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: The red maybe hits the skull and there's some light photon activity just on the other side.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so completely understandable that the mitochondria and the glial cells, which protect the rest of the neurons, are activated.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there's some studies that show mitochondrial migration up and down glial cells under red laser light, is is phenomenally more.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: We know how that activates mitochondrial growth signaling.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when we shine that laser over the edges of the cerebrum, we're having a lot more emphatic flow.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're reducing those neuroinflammatory markers significantly.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: We know that it actually inhibits um tau protein formation and fibrils.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: It actually helps repair debris so cells can even switch on as a prooxidant apoptosis and clear themselves where they need to, where they're really damaged.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Umyloid plaque folding, but that's more chronic, and single uses won't really help with that.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that aspect.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I understand the nitric oxide and the more cerebral flow, better oxygenation.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: We know the benefits of that.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I know a lot of my friends bought the helmets to you, and we all use it in the evening sometimes after a big day, and it just it's we feel more regulated.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is where the other interesting aspect comes in.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why did the brain waves change so significantly in the research we were doing?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make sense that just the cortex of the brain was activated.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: We could see that the uh high STEM alpha waves, especially in the um and low beta, would would proportionately change.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have slightly more alpha activity, the low beta stress waves would start modulating more, and the delta waves would be doing these almost um sort of spike reset moments.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we found that the waves would start happening in pulses, and that's not the laser in pulses.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I won't pick that up in measuring a QEG.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so you suddenly had these pulses that started coming through.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the more of those pulses that happened, the more harmony you started seeing between the different areas of the brain waves and the modulation, down regulating the stress, the delta wave, the sort of very low hertz were improving, theta would go up quite a bit in the parietal.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just fascinating.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how that happens doesn't make sense with the physics of just you know diodes uh activating mitochondria and the glyalin and some of the neurons.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh a step further to that, which was which which I'm which I've done a bit of research with the new helmet.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot stronger, and so it requires a bit more attention uh to detail.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: But specifically, there's an area in this just sort of prefrontal cortex over here, um, and Brodman's area and on the bottom.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a salient network, and the brain is not compartmentalized with wire connections, it works as a as a whole circuitry system.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So one circuit can be involved with activating several other circuits, and there's something called the salient network that moves up from this prefrontal right down through to either the limbic system and sometimes down to some of the other pathways that help coordinate uh movement coordination, etc.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when you stimulate this area just over here, you start finding that movement in Parkinson's patients start becoming a little more fluid, or you'll find that autonomic nervous system arousal completely calming down.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the fight or flight, adrenaline, upsympathetic tone, or the parasympathetic calm state.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And people always said yes, it calms your brainstem, but there is no laser that goes down to the brainstem unless you're doing interventricular injections or going up the CSF, you know.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so the conclusion I've reached is that salient pathway or salient network is being activated.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And once that is calmer and more regulated, everything starts finding a better rhythm in the brain.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking forward to where the research goes.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't just think it's putting a helmet on, reduce inflammation, make neurons grow.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's quite an old way of looking at it.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're very specific to modulating the frequency and finding that, you know, as the Buddhists always say, that middle path, that harmony, that balance within the brain.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then the brain knows how to fix itself.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes like to say the brain's more intelligent than we are.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the thinking part of us, just a small percentage of our brains.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more that goes on there.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so it's a very I really enjoy using the helmet.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh from a cancer perspective, a chemofog brain, patients are feeling just foggy, they require about four or five sessions of the laser helmet, that's all, and it just helps restore some circulation, reduce the inflammation.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Works very well with some curcumin as well.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um for uh yeah, we used to do some PDT, but it depends where the really where the tumour is, so that can be quite tricky.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what's my next question?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because you were talking about glioblastoma in the beginning, and um, yeah, we know it's always what you just mentioned, an issue of penetration of the, but now with a more powerful helmet.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: We just had one patient where with multiple lesions, which um they basically all disappeared after the treatment with the ICG with a new helmet.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that might be also very promising.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not a lot of experience yet, but first um patients show a very good reaction towards the helmet with a more powerful light penetration.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I might need to look into that again, but I I think I I I I reserved it for those that were either children or had closer, more peripheral sighted tumors.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but with that new laser, absolutely it is more powerful.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's something I look forward to looking into.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: The the um I've had mixed results with the uh antimicrobial sort of photodynamic effect for the chronic fatigue syndrome patients, whether it's antimicrobial or not, just doing the gold laser and a few of the other lasers, we call it like the rainbow sequence of lasers, giving them some really good vitamins and and making less fuss about them, often a short course of corticosteroids, uh like cortisone, just to keep the adrenals up, maybe flu cortisone for pot syndrome, and lying on the laser bed just six minutes either every day or about 15 minutes three times a week.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: 90% of them feel better after six weeks, significantly better.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we obviously add the laser helmet into that and do some neurofeedback, significantly better.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for those that have very high uh the EBV antibody titers or some of the other viruses that we pick up or used to do this a lot more, we've tried the riboflavin PDT.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: We still use that as a protocol.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've got quite a few patients with rakets here around here and and not quite lines, but it can be similar and definitely a beneficial effect, but I'm not sure which cases it works the best on or not, especially those EBVs.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've had some patients, I don't know your experience, Robert, some of them just respond unbelievably well, and it's just a little more you know resistant and they kind of fluctuate.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: So riboflavin PDT, uh, it works sometimes.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: We add it in any way harmless, you know, uh B uh B2 and and then the blue and UV laser.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we but mostly just the endovascular laser.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we can share a screen.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to show you the pictures that we normally take of the um of the bloods.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Let me see if I've got a do you see a button um down there on the share button?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: So even just something like this.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, this is the often very uh aggregated state of blood that we see, um, sometimes through low formation, just a different level of of blood rheology that's not not as flowing.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see the white cells over here are a little bit more anethetized and not moving much.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when we do specifically the green laser, Robert, endovascularly, with a fiber optic cable, just through a normal gel cocannula that we do drips with, we see these echinocytes.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: We know that the chromophores on the membrane of these red cells are being activated with that green laser, right?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they look like under, and that's the real picture of them.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is a sequence of why increased energy through the chromophores can create these echinocytes.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're always taught in med school that this is a sign of sickness, but it's a transient phenomena with the the green laser.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we stop it, so it starts like this, we see this with the green laser, and after the green laser, we see this.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just an unbelievable um response to how these red cell membranes are just a lot more intact, more integrity, saturations go up, better oxygenation.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's hard to understand why.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the difference between these uh activated white cells is is also phenomenal.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then you find red laser after this, and you start seeing them migrate and touching all the other cells kind of on the hunt, as we say.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I guess the difference between having a sticky, it's not clotting, but just a fibronectin protein, gluten kind of uh uh scenario where single capillaries are meant to be flowing single blood cells through capillaries, a state like this is going to be a lot different to a state like that.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um how, especially when your whole body is just blood vessels.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: How long that lasts for, I don't know.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: But patients feel better.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then for immunotherapy, um, obviously doing either PDT checkpoint inhibitors and electrohypothermia.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: What I like is looking at these immune cells that don't move much, we want to see them hunting like this.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then the minute we do the green, open up the blood, and then do the red, you see these.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is just a picture I took uh one of the patients, and all the patients you start seeing these little cells touching every all the other cells kind of hunting.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a really uh yeah, it's really nice to see in real life.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I I I don't I don't like um I don't like showing the patients too many things that I can't explain.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we'd rather give it to them and if they feel good, we you know we keep doing it.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's uh it takes a long time to explain why these things work.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: And let me just see if I've got anything.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I'll show this this is the patient I was talking about earlier.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just it's actually on the same slide.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just do this.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Remember the hotel cell carcinoma was swallowing the cable, and there's the PDT, and that's that's what worked so well.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's a her neck shining up.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this was one of the uh reports.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and this was a little bit more um invasive kind of uh liver.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: It gets quite technical.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is how intense we got, but we we you can apply it much more simply than that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: This was when we were trying to figure out how intrahepatic endocine and green can work, injecting it through like that.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything else while we've got this open.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe just the nebulized, um nebulized endocyne and green for lung cancers and sort of thoracic, and then swallowing a cable like that uh works quite well too.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, lots of exciting stuff in there and probably um I don't get to practice this as much as I I used to.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we use it for for select cases just for a short period of time, opening up in London to uh, as I said, we're using the the different wavelengths for supporting side effects from chemo mostly and for treating some of the new neurodegenerative patients and the chronic fatigue patients with laser helmet, laser bed, and just really, really good nutrient drugs.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And six weeks.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Six weeks is what most of them need to see a good turnaround.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, perfect.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: This was a very good summary and also thanks for sharing the pictures.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so I think it was a very good um contribution today.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you very much again.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Coming to the end now, would you like to share any um thing with our audience, like your contact information, your clinic, um website, or whatever you would like to share?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it was nice taking a trip down memory lane, Robert, uh, and looking at some of those cases.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and as we speak, we've got a case next door over here, obviously getting some some treatment.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um the our Sanctura is the clinic's name, London and Cape Town.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we're positioned ourselves in London just because it's a lot more central to Europe, islands, a lot of from America to and Ireland itself.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have everything under one roof there.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: The hypothermia, access to chemoimmuno through uh an at-home chemo service, oncologists and integrative um cardiologists working there, the photobimodulation devices, HBOT and the oncothermia, electroopothermia.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just really proud up everything under one roof for people who need to stop and get those first intensive two, three months treatment, see it working, and then often they can return to home for a more sustained uh treatment from one of the practitioners there.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, website is www.sanctura life, s-a-n-c-t-u-r-a-life.com.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Good team of nurses and good team of practitioners.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and great, great place of items.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and certainly a place we can recommend for anyone suffering maybe from cancer disease, or if you're looking for a great practitioner with very innovative methods, yeah, you can visit James either in um Cape Town or in London.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that's a very good place to go.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so thank you again, James, for this very good conversation today.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, thanks for everyone else listening today.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I give the final word to you, and thanks everybody.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So Robert, thank you for always bringing such like-minded practitioners together and uh and and and pushing the boundaries of what is possible, leading the way.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.